My Little Pony Mafia - GENOCIDAL FRIENDSHIP PONIES

[Jahudo]

A new game, a new sunrise. This is going to be fun.

I think we all know who Equinox is talking about... Big Macintosh

[Jahudo]

Fluttershy is my favorite pony, how could I ever bring myself to vote her?
So you better be town!

Do you mean policy lynch chesskid because he voted "no lynch" or because he is chesskid?
It looks like a joke to me and I don't think chesskid is a VI, which is also why I think he was joking.

[Jahudo]

Unvote, Vote:Jahudo

That's an odd post you've got there pardner. Now I may not ride this pony all the way to the bank but all the other votes here are just horsin' around.

Which one, the first or the second?

[Jahudo]

@Esp: I'm waiting to place a serious vote.

@Jahudo- the one directly above my post (2nd)

Ok. It was my one time to acknowledge Fluttershy as a character on the show. Now its just a name associated with a hydra in this game, and wouldn't have any impact on my read which is null.

As for chesskid, I just don't think he has done anything to warrant a serious vote.

Why would even a serious chesskid be a policy lynch in that situation? I don't think scum would be so bold to try and achieve that goal, even if they say "let's wagon no lynch for the lulz".

[Jahudo]

Equinox only really crumbed his rolename, not role so I don't see how that's tactical in any way. Scum have fakeclaims, mods are able to give main characters to scum, so he's not putting himself in any hole by talking like somepony in particular.

Jahudo I know that fluttershy is a character and etc.etc. But the first section of the post is the same thing that Rhinoz pulled back in objection mafia with Vi

Yeah, I thought Rhinox was scummy for that too but the difference is that his declaration looked serious because it was about a player playing. Mine had no intention of looking serious because it was only about a name.

I actually personally think that not RVS voting is generally slightly more likely to scum from town given cautious scum/aggressive town.

Cautious scum try to fit in with the crowd so why would they not do something that most people do? I think its null because placing a random vote requires no strategy or foresight. There is no wrong answer so scum wouldn't have any reason to consider a "right" move.

--

*Jahudo: I understand the jokes. ( :thumbup: to Jahudo ). but what is this about policy lynching chesskid? ( :thumbdown: to Jahudo ).

Fluttershy's call of policy lynch looked serious enough to respond in a serious manner. I do believe that chesskid is a good player and would know there is no foreseeable advantage to actually no lynch, which made it a clear joke, which meant there was no serious reason to suggest a no lynch. Also your posting style is hard to follow, some sections don't seem to have any point but if its just getting jokes out of the way early okay.

[Jahudo]

Softclaiming a character claim =/= softclaiming useful information, except in the rare occasion when a theme game has a role that involves a specific other character (ex: "You are Snips, each night you can target someone to see if they are Snails. If they are, you become neighbors") Other than that I don't see how softclaiming one's character affects the game in the slightest.

I don't see any scum hunting from him so far, either.

I see scumhunting from chesskid. Pressuring a player, making a post that gets reactions and then following up on those reactions. So to me it looks like you are either trying to say you don't like his style and would invalidate it, or you really have never seen a player like him before?

[Jahudo]

Not to beat the 'no lynch' horse (or pony in this case) again, but I really don't get why you would vote No Lynch during random voting stage. If you're not trying to tie yourself to anyone, I think that's more beneficial as scum than town. It's a RVS for a reason.

Vote: TheLonging'

Need to read some other games of chesskid to see if this is how he plays. If so, it's a bit too 'flippant'. (not sure if that's the exact word I'm looking for, but hope you get what I mean).

So why did you vote for TheLonging? Was it a typo, random vote, or do you have a reason?

I don't understand how a random vote ties someone to another person, I never look at random votes later in the game when players have been flipped and its time to look for connections. It has always seemed like an arbitrary move, and the part of it that scum are actively thinking about is how they can blend in given the unique situation of the game whether its focus on an early wagon or mechanics being discussed.

[Jahudo]

Okay. It's a concern that you didn't read the thread close enough to see the difference but that also means you wouldn't be cautious scum. I don't think this "slip" is telling.

[Jahudo]

If its not about that then why are you voting? And no I'm not going to vote him and I'm not his buddy and I'm not scum hurr durr.

[Jahudo]

I don't have any scum reads, and I don't vote just when I have a concern because something isn't clear. So far when that's happened I think the answer's I've heard have been satisfactory. So I have town and null reads only.

No, I don't think I've ever chosen to not make a random vote. And I've never heard of doing it / not doing it as an alignment tell, I'm sure of that because it sounds so ridiculous to me I would have remembered it. So my only thought was "meh, I'll skip random vote stage"

[Jahudo]

I disagree with the WLC case. He never said TheLonging looked scummy, only that the “no lynch vote” was scummy so he isn’t actually keeping thelonging as a potential vote switch. The mix-up doesn’t make him look like scum because I would think scum are more focused on getting their facts straight than drawing conclusions from actions. And not talking about other subjects is pretty null because we don’t know who has enough time to far to read everything.

I disagree with the chesskid case. The no lynch vote was a joke and his playstyle is not scummy. I don’t think this “appeal to ridicule” is a useful tell, I’ve seen plenty of people try to get under other people’s skin for reactions and that’s how I read this interaction. Although I do wonder how he’s going to deal with Maziek in the future.

I disagree with TheLonging case. Early on it looked like he was trying to take a small point over the no lynch joke and just use it to get us out of the RVS. It looked more about getting answers than condemning chess so I think that looked okay. Then it changed because he thought chess was being defensive while having a 3 person wagon on him (seems like semantics when you say what constitutes a wagon and if one should put hohum’s vote conditionally in or out depending on the reasoning others had). I get where TheLonging sees that defensiveness but I don’t interpret it that way. Actually I think both players were just trying to read each other and now it may look like they think the other is confused/dumb town.

And I’m looking at everybody else but not seeing anything that stands out yet as anti-town or looks like it has an ulterior motive that would benefit a scum goal. I will vote when I'm ready to say someone looks like scum but not on any hunch or pressure wagon, etc.

[Jahudo]

With the WLC wagon, I can understand why people will pressure someone who is not reading closely. You want to make sure they are putting time and effort into this game and not coasting. I can see how it leads to anti-town behavior but not scummy per say.

For chesskid's wagon, I'm not surprised people would jump on someone who votes no lynch because that's one of those policy things that keep getting brought up along with self-voting during random stage.

I think scum follow the crowd early game because its easier to do that when there aren't dozens of small details to take sides on. There could also easily be 1 scum in {Fluttershy, MehPlusKatsuki, Mina} who haven't made as much or any impression yet. That doesn't mean they should have pressure votes though. Fluttershy and Mina are V/LA, no need to pressure there. Meh will get prodded by the mod when the time comes.

[Jahudo]

Hey gamma, what was the town tell in Espy's first post? I'm guess saying early wagons are good is a sign of not worrying about appearances.

I also second the questions asked of Espy in regards to his latest post. IE, what is the main reason for voting a null read (like does this mean there are no alignment tells or that the good and bad cancel each other out); and does Espy think the case on WLC makes a good point that he would agree with if he didn't see the wagon as "easy".

[Jahudo]

The only way it ties his role down is we know he's not "Nameless Vanilla Town Pony". I wouldn't find it odd for someone to hope they are someone outside the main six (well five now).

[Jahudo]

I wouldn't find it odd for someone to hope they are someone outside the main six (well five now).

Plus the town role role PMs have a giant picture of the character in them. I bet scum's fakeclaim has one too. So even though scum may be thinking less about the character they are pretending to represent as the game goes along, it would have been pretty hard to ignore that picture when you just got it. And either Espy or Equinox could have thought "cool pony, I'm going to show my excitement over that picture". So what I'm saying is I think its null.

[Jahudo]

Weekends are always slow, but I hope no pony is acting like this is a three week day or else deadline will creep up pretty quickly.

@inhim: what do you think about WLC's defense? You don't mention it in your most recent post. I didn't get the impression you were more concerned with how it looked as though he suspected one person and voted another. You seemed to be more interested in how he voted TheLonging without talking about the other people who had voted him, and now that he says his main point was to suspect the "no lynch" voter, he would have had to bring up the Longing wagon. So did you just slip over to chesskid's case? How come you didn't see that point in the first place?

[Jahudo]

I don't see how Gamma is rambling. That word makes me think long posts that are filled with non-content fluff. I feel like gamma makes short posts and is clear about his intention.

If its about how he characterizes his feelings (ie: "that is an odd post", "that gives me twitches") that's another thing, being vague, but I can still see his purpose because of his vote even if the reasoning takes some prodding to find out. There is nothing wrong with taht as long as it doesn't look as though he is keeping things close to the vest until someone else can help him make a case. As long as he can backup why he has unexplained gut vibes, he can go with a technique he must think is efficient.

-----

I didn't slip onto chesskid's reasoning at all, was just encouraging more votes.

My beef with WLC comes from using the No Lynch vote as reasoning after there was a lot more content to be explored when considering who to vote at that juncture.

If you felt that way about his attitude towards a no lynch vote all along, then why didn't you say so before now? I don't get why someone would lay out half their case and keep the other half to yourself after someone else brought it up.

So you are on a wagon for one reason, and someone else is on the wagon for another reason. You agree with them but don't want to say you agree. I can't see a reason for town to hide a stance once its out in the open like that. I can only think of scum who aren't sure whether that point is something to rally around or not, because it may falter.

In the meantime, your original reasoning doesn't seem as applicable, if at all, unless you want to argue that he did intent to vote TheLonging and for whatever reason filled the rest of his post with CHESSKID and not TheLonging. But you don't comment on the defense. I don't like how you continue to act like WLC's post was scummy without saying how his defense hasn't changed your opinion. If you can defend your point, why not do it? Town should be eager to back themselves up. I can only think of scum who realize things have changed and they are not ready or sure how to progress.

So what is the town rationale for not saying the wagon is now about the no lynch vote too, and what is the town rationale for not acknowledging how your original stance may need some clarification to be justified.

Vote: inhimshallibe

[Jahudo]

You voted TheLonging for seeing the "no lynch" vote as anti-town and scummy in theory, while not thinking of why scum would be motivated to make that move like that. His reasoning was that 1 no lynch vote is closer to getting a no lynch result, and that scum would want to try for that result.

WLC used different reasoning. He said that using no lynch is a way to not tie yourself to somebody. That argument can effortlessly be made without referencing TheLonging because they are different tells.

How you can not see the difference between the two makes me think you are not analyzing the case past the premise. You jumped into that vote within minutes of WLC's post, like you are trying to falsely push momentum from TheLonging wagon onto this one when it isn't justified.

[Jahudo]

No lynch voting as a means to avoid creating ties was brought up before him? I don't see where.

------

I used to be more bandwagony over little points and gut reads but I haven't been that way nearly as much in my past few games. I realized I'd end up writing walls back and forth whoever I was scumhunting but the amount of words being said weren't proportional to the things we were learning. So now I think slower starts with more prep work will result in better cases being made. That's the plan anyway.

[Jahudo]

Yes, this line of thought does not excuse WLC's lack of scumhunting after his vote, like commenting on chesskid's other posts or talking about some other topics in general. WLC is someone to watch in that way.

[Jahudo]

Welcome back Flootershy. For some reason I thought you were a hydra and not an alt. And that Sotty may have been involved.

First and foremost, a very important question: Jahudo, have you actually watch My Little Pony at all?

I have watched every episode twice now, and frequent equestria daily and ponychan for moar pony. Although I didn't discover this show until mid-may. So why do you ask?

Did it? I can't remember what game I was watching, but someone called for a PL on Chesskid and I wanted to see if I could get a similar reaction.

What gamma said. What kind of reaction did that previous PL vote get? Do you remember any conclusions drawn from it?

[Jahudo]

It is clear from chesskid's post history that he did have access multiple times yesterday. So if he was trying to hide behind limited access, he was doing a poor job of it. It makes more sense that he either didn't want to think about mafia or try to get more discussion out of this game, the former is excusable and the latter not so much.

And hohum has been trying to get Espy to get serious for most of the game so I'm not surprised he's sticking to that. Right now its not helping much if Espy is gonna lurk.
hohum, you do know that Espy has been posting on this site too?

[Jahudo]

I like all these list titles people are coming up with. I guess I'll do one too.

Elements of Harmony (town):

hohum
Equinox
chesskid

Invited to the Gala (lean town):

Maziek
gammagooey
TheLonging

Not so dearest students (inactive/lurkers):

Mina
Pinkie Pie
WLC (his post count is deceiving, its more self-corrections and defense than scumhunting so far. I agree he needs to show more soon.)

Imprisoned in the place they were banished to (lean scum / scum):

Espy (lean, for lurking like I said + me seeing eye-to-eye with his wagon more than the others)
Fluttershy (for stuff I'm about to say)
inhimshallibe (for stuff I've already said)

---

So Gamma, are you saying either WLC or myself are scum based on probability of your top two reads, or that you see a "one's town and one's scum kind of tell" somewhere? I figure the former but I'm interesting in clarifications anyway.

For me Maziek is more lean town than a "WTF player" so I'm curious why you think that? Even though he hasn't posted since the weekend, his early stuff did have plenty of opinions. I don't think he went for any opportunistic hops, and his case on chesskid isn't surprising for a newbie. That doesn't make it a good case but he seems alright so far.

Flutter is more likely scum and slightly less garbage than the rest of the garbage but still garbage.

I agree but we'll see what happens when Mina makes a second post and Pinkie makes a first one. There just isn't a good sample size on either.

Fluttershy's second real post, 161, had a strange vibe when he talked about WLC. What I mean by that is he spent the most time on it like he was most interested in that, but didn't end up delivering anything meaningful.

He brings up the "WLC voting Longing over no lynch" post but doesn't explain why he originally thought scummy or why he changed to null. There had to be a reason even if gut, so why not say that?
It just feels like its only purpose is to show that he is more interested in that wagon than other topics of discussion, like its there to make him look like a potential voter.

I want to comment on his question to WLC but won't step on his hooves before WLC gets a chance to answer it.

However, I can understand him not seeing the Espy case even if this thread is short, it sounds like his access is still limited. That should affect the things he's read and apparently understood (ie: WLC wagon).

[Jahudo]

I think we all know who Equinox is talking about...

Big Macintosh

Bolding on my part to emphasis the thing that confused me. Yes, we could all tell that they were roleplaying as Applejack, but you said Big Macintosh instead...why is that?

Because I was making a joke. Anyway how does my knowledge of a secondary character make you think I don't know the show? That's kinda funny actually.

Found the game I was thinking of. It was Mini 1160 - Cupcake Mafia!. I usually try to be funny/witty with my RVS votes and his name stood out. What happened in that game? Well...I would say he was angry/defensive but level headed...which means...IDK! I have not read any of his scum games!

I can't tell which one is you there. And it appears that chesskid was mostly wagoned because someone claimed to have role information on him. That isn't the same as policy lynching someone because they hurt the town by being in the game.

But, using your vote is the town's power...you don't use it, you don't win. Plus, it does make you seem opportunistic.

Don't try to misrepresent me. I said I was going to vote when I was confident in my reads. That didn't mean I wasn't going to hide my reads in the meantime. That makes my vote, when I do place one, carry more weight than someone who hops around over a small matter or to prod a lurker or throw a little pressure in one direction. So I am very dedicated to using my voting power.

And the little argument between Jahudo and inHim did confuse me a bit (still does) I thought inHim was clear in what he was trying to say and I think you (Jahudo) did finally understand what his point was. So does that mean you found his answer to be satisfactory? I take it you didn't because your vote is still sitting on him.

No, read it again. inHim was using the false logic that both WLC and TheLonging were voting chesskid for the same reason. That is still fact and I stand by the conclusions I drew from it. The only benefit I gave him was that WLC is not doing enough scumhunting and therefore does not look town at the moment. But the way inHim voted him was inappropriate.

I don't like your reasoning about how voting 'no-lynch' is scum hiding themselves in the RVS.

Why don't you agree with this reasoning?

[Jahudo]

You're joking. You're joking, right? We went over this on page 7. You voted WLC because he didn't comment on the discussion of those that voted TheLonging. You falsely implied that WLC voted chesskid over the same scumtell that TheLonging used (that one no lynch vote gets us closer to an actual no lynch, which is something scum would want to achieve.) WLC did not give that reasoning, so he could not have been scummy for ignoring discussion that would affect the justification of his vote.

[Jahudo]

This blatant flip-flopping is painful to read. I think you need to spend some time alone on the moon. A millennium should do it.

I don't think you interpreted my original reasoning correctly.

For 1)

not commenting on discussion between those of us who had voted and subsequently unvoted TheLonging

, 2)being vague about chesskid, and 3)killing innocent ponies.

The bold indicates I was upset he was using that outdated reason.

Your words. Your point was that he used an outdated reason (TheLonging's reasons) that other people voted/unvoted over, and that WLC was scummy for not defending his vote because of those unvotes.

He didn't use an outdated reason so he couldn't have been scummy for not backing up something that never got knocked down in the first place.

If you had a problem with him not doing more scumhunting in post 89, for not commenting on the rest of chesskid's play at that time or for commenting on other people's play at that time: say something about that. Don't make it just about TheLonging, because that implies his vote is relevant to TheLonging's vote and not anybody else's suspicion about chesskid, like Maziek. Why didn't you have a problem with him not commenting on Maziek's case?

Why didn't you acknowledge that WLC said he was looking into chesskid's meta, which meant he would come back later with more discussion on chesskid? You clearly did not want to make that wagon about his lack of scumhunting. Your vote was a hop from a preview edit 7 minutes after his post that indicated he was in the middle of forming a read on chesskid. If you had said you were voting him for the reason you are now claiming, that would have been a temporary vote. Keeping it vague with heavy implications that it was about an old "no lynch" scum tell allows scum to stay on longer and not have to backup the point unless someone picks up on it.

You clearly did not want to get a better read on WLC after your vote, because your next posts are agreeing with chesskid's vote (also not about lack of scumhunting) and telling reiterating that its a scummy post without any more explanation. WLC defends his case and you don't respond. You ask other people questions, but not him. You aren't looking the part of a town player pressuring a low content player to produce more content.

Tl;DR - inHim is desperate scum hoping we aren't reading the thread.

[Jahudo]

It wasn't TheLonging's reason, it was WeyounsLastClone's reason. I never implied anything about WLC and TL other than WLC was voting for TL. You're creating this link to form a case, and it's rooted in deception.

You knew WLC meant to vote chesskid so I don't know what you mean by saying you implied something about WLC voting TL. If you are trying to say Point 1 of your WLC vote was about WLC not discussing good reasons for voting TheLonging, that ship sailed when you made it clear you understood he was voting for chesskid like TheLonging.

Also, I did mention his looking into chesskid's meta, I said he was "2)being vague about chesskid". I've heard plenty of scum promise to go look up something and not provide it in that very post. All the time.

You were not clear at all by what you meant in Point 2. You saying he's being vague is itself vague. I say this because WLC talked about chesskid not trying to tie himself to anybody AND chesskid being flippant. You could have meant either one or both. I thought you may have eventually backed up that point but instead you remained vague. So you are scumtastic and a hypocrit.

I've heard town do it too, but add the pisspoor vote of TheLonging and I'd seen enough to vote, and not to get reactions, but to lynch him.

Wait are you actually being serious with this? Are you playing the VI card on yourself?

-----

@ Pinkie Pie: Just read the game and what's up with the Mina vote?

[Jahudo]

Gamma if you want to explain any of that, that would be cool. Or you could just hang out on my wagon for a reason I can't even remember and not question me or anything. That is less cool but you know.

inHim can be scum seizing the opportunity of a sluggish game with low posters, and try to direct conversations and look like he's taking charge. In theory a WLC vote is good. The way he went about voting is scummy, and I hope that sensible, analytical town can either find that on their own or carefully explain why they do not think that is more likely. But saying he's the high poster and high voter in a slow game is not saying much about alignments.

[Jahudo]

Welcome Ojanen!

wlc looked and looks like scum so he got voted.

If a player is scummy for X, it is good to vote him vote X. If he did not do Y, it is invalid to vote him for doing Y.
Scum want to vote over non-arguments if they can hide it well enough. That way if an actual scummy tell becomes less valid later in the game, they don't have to say it was ever the cornerstone of their case.
inHim was vague in his vote but heavily indicated that WLC wanted to vote chesskid for the same reason TheLonging wanted to vote chesskid. I see no other explanation possible, and he even backed that statement up before flip-flopping back. It is right there in the text.

your early play of defending a lot of early wagons without giving anything of your own until the inhims vote, bringing up a friggen' chart of characters and a bunch of tangential info about the characters instead of just saying that you think espy is scum/not-scum, you going from questions everywhere with your inhims vote to

That is still scumhunting on my part. I commented on the wagons and how I did not think they led to scumtells, but also where town players can justify their voting actions. I'm not going to lie and say someone is my top scum read when I don't have confidence in anyone being scum at that juncture.

all look like they're coming from scum instead of town- it's like you're distanced from the game and making comments about it instead of actively diving in and figuring stuff out- I feel like that a lot when I get stuck into a scum role and I think that you feel the same way and were primarily trying to make accurate comments on the game for later instead of having to sort through suspicions and paranoia about the other player's alignments.

I'm not clear what posts you are talking about. You reference my call for other people to re-look at inHim, that is somehow an example?

I understand the theory of a player acting more like an observer than someone who is in the thick of things, but I don't fit that mold.
* Let's compare the whole of scumhunting-oriented questions: 13 posts for Jahudo vs. 3 for inHim. He sits on votes and ignores WLC's defense. I spread questions around to other players with a purpose so that when I made my reads, I have confidence in them.

And don't you dare give me "I'm right about inhims so jahudos town because inhims is scum".

I don't like how you put words in his mouth but in the end you are calling him probtown so it doesn't look like you are trying to throw mud in his direction.

[Jahudo]

Hey Fluttershy

Exactly...that is what confused me. Unless you had some reason to suggest that she was Big Macintosh which is what crossed my mind

The idea of my joke was to focus on one party of his softclaim (being an authority of apples, having apples without genetic engineering, etc) that could apply to both ponies while ignoring the obvious southern dialect that only applies to Applejack. The "..." was used for comedic timing and the emoticon was there to make sure my attitude was clear. I think that's the best way I can explain it.
Do you have a greater concern over this, or were you just wondering if I watched the show?

Para claimed that he was pushing for a PL (some kind of e-grudge with Chesskid I guess)

Maybe there is an e-grudge like you say, chesskid and Fate also cross-voted in that game, but it came across as playful banter to me. That also could be because I saw them in a large game not too long ago.
So you were just making an attempt to fit in?

Oh...I think I have to read all his arguments again...I don't know why but I always end up at the point of "wtf is going on now?" when I am reading them.

It is hard to boil down into a few words. Essentially:
I say inHim claimed WLC and TheLonging both voted chesskid for the same scumtell. (the debatable part, but I stand by my evidence)
WLC and TheLonging did not vote chesskid for the same scumtell. (the indisputable part)

If inHim had voted WLC for a valid reason, he would have looked town. My vote on him does not mean WLC is off any hook though.

if you vote no-lynch, that is just drawing more attention to yourself which just counters the purpose of hiding =/

I think you are being hypocritical here. How is that different than me not voting by page 5?

By hiding don't you mean following what the majority of players are doing? Like chesskid doing "no lynch" stood out from people who placed random votes.
And by page 5 the people who were active were voting over small tells. I don't do that, at least not my past 5 or so games. I'll still try and participate by weighing in on these wagons, but I am always hunting for the bigger scumtells. So when I place my vote I am saying I am okay with seeing him claim.

[Jahudo]

Gamma, argue your case.

I don't think you interpreted my original reasoning correctly.

For 1)

not commenting on discussion between those of us who had voted and subsequently unvoted TheLonging

, 2)being vague about chesskid, and 3)killing innocent ponies.

The bold indicates I was upset he was using that outdated reason.

"those of us who had voted and subsequently unvoted TheLonging" ----means-----> People voted TheLonging because he didn't understand chesskid was not serious about pushing a no lynch all day long.

"not commenting on discussion..." ----means-----> inHim says WLC hadn't yet acknowledged that the no lynch vote was not serious about pushing a no lynch all day long.

"Outdated reason" ----means-----> TheLonging's statement that a no lynch vote gets us closer to a no lynch result, which is what scum want so its scummy.

Not to beat the 'no lynch' horse (or pony in this case) again, but I really don't get why you would vote No Lynch during random voting stage. If you're not trying to tie yourself to anyone, I think that's more beneficial as scum than town. It's a RVS for a reason.

"I really don't get why you would vote No Lynch during random voting stage." ----means-----> WLC doesn't think it was a serious proposal.

"If you're not trying to tie yourself to anyone, I think that's more beneficial as scum than town." ----means-----> Not the same as TheLonging's outdated reason.

[Jahudo]

if you go through inhims iso it's pretty clear why he voted wlc

Why do you think he voted WLC?

the way to get a better read on a player is for them to friggen' post more, which wlc hasn't done at allllllll.

Don't hide behind that argument. We all know WLC needs to play. I've never argued he shouldn't be under scrutiny. But to wagon a lurker for a false reason is not town play. It is actually undermining the wagon. He is doing a disservice to what should be a wagon about pressuring WLC to produce more content by commenting and questioning his latest posts. inHim isn't even trying to do that, and never said he cared in the first place.

inHim said WLC didn't discuss the likelyhood that chesskid was not serious about his no lynch vote. That is false. He lied and must be banished to the moon.

[Jahudo]

inhims voted wlc orginally because he voted longing but ignored all the discussion with him and chess and the defensive accusation and all the other stuff around page 2-3.

Correct. The way inHim phrased that suspicion makes it sound to me as if WLC's vote reasoning on TheLonging/chesskid had already been discussed there and he was ignoring new developments. He didn't acknowledge that it was a new reason, or comment on it initially.

----

Even if it was a suspicion on WLC for not commenting on the chesskid/Longing pages, it would be hypocritical for him to call out WLC but not Espy for instance.

----

It's also hypocritical for him to suspect WLC for this:

being vague about chesskid

If so, it's a bit too 'flippant'.

When inHim does that too.

Jahudo playing coy

I keep having a harder and harder time believing inhim is playing like a townie. His "scumhunting" is filled with hypocrisy, passive vote sitting, and lack of clarity that make me believe he has ulterior motives for the way he is posting.

[Jahudo]

For a page 2 post, this is oddly stagnant. It's a post that will not move the game state to any direction except possibly backwards- "I'm waiting", and inserting reasonableness to the only debate that is so far moving anywhere.

When someone suggests a policy lynch, I figure the only two responses are "HELLZ YAY!" or "Come on, let's just play the game". I don't think its fair for people to join an attempted policy lynch wagon with the purpose of getting some pressure but not trying to hammer them. I can see the appeal for people that just like to pressure but I don't think that's a good way to do it and I'm not that time of player anymore anyway.

And I will continue to argue that I can and have given a fair amount of player reads and suspicions without always having my vote on someone. I am experienced enough that I know when its time to lynch someone, and I will be always ready with a confident pick.

generally when I'm following my gut and trying to explain why I feel that way, such as in skype mafia when I said one person was scum for lurking hardcore when another person who I had and maintained a town read on was also lurking just as hardcore. How does this make you feel?

That isn't the same thing. It would be the same if you called someone scum for lurking hardcore, then went and lurked hardcore yourself.

What you did can be justifiable because maybe the net balance of the second player was town because he had more town tells on him vs. that one scum tell.

RE: Your case on me: Yeah I admit I comment on what other people are doing alot and if I agree or not. That should be 1/2 of scumhunting with the other half being creating one's own reads and suspicions, and then letting other people comment and agree or not.
So have I fallen short of expectations on giving my own reads / suspicions? By my own expectations for myself I actually do think I've fallen short. Partly its because we have had a lot of lurkers/limited accessers doing nothing, so my reads on them are pretty nothing. The other part is that my own fault and I accept that. I won't vote someone over gut, or build a mountain out of what I think is a molehill in the hopes of striking gold. I take it slow and start with the questions, comments and build up from there. So my early day 1 will suck most likely, but I always get more involved the longer the game goes on.

But that thing about me liking Fluttershy is still kinda silly. Rhinox was trying to play cool around a good player that people like him expect great things from. I was just talking commenting on an avatar/username that doesn't translate to the game after that.

[Jahudo]

Mina's catchup post looks alright to me. Yeah we could call her out for not getting into the details of these big wagons (inhim, jahudo, WLC) but it's reasonable to believe she ran out of steam.

chesskid3: My initial vibe from him was town

What was the initial vibe from? Do you have a playstyle meta on him like you do on hohum?
I agree that chesskid has checked out of the game recently and he has admitted that much, but then its turned into a lack of time. Its hard to guess when one ended and the other began, but more importantly I do think he should come back and share his ideas about inHim.

@chesskid, the biggest question I and probably most people have is how you went from really liking the WLC wagon and saying inHim raised good points about it, to voting inHim.

Initially, I'd thought it was townish how he cleared Equinox for her roleplaying.

Why is that? I still think that's a null tell.

I'm getting really mixed signals from Fluttershy--maybe it's just the cute avatar winning me over (how could

Fluttershy

be scum?)

Looks like we found another scum, eh Gamma? [/sarcasm]

It's hard to say where this Fluttershy wagon is coming from or going; that may be clear when Fluttershy comes back. She is my #2 suspect at the moment so I like the idea of a wagon and am curious to see if I like the reasons of this wagon.

So Jahudo, what are your reads other than inHim being scum?

Fluttershy, Espy, WLC are other possible scum. Gamma, hohum, Equinox, ojanen, thelonging are prob. town. You and Pinkie Pie are still pretty null to me. Pinkie is more null. That post that was just an emoticon, not helpful.

[Jahudo]

INHIM IS OBVIOUS TOWN AND I CAN'T FOR THE LIFE OF ME UNDERSTAND WHY HE ISN'T SEEN UNIVERSALLY SO.

inHim called WLC scummy for something that inHim himself does (apply vague terms to players flippant vs. coy).

inHim did not follow up on his WLC vote with any acknowledgement of post 94 or 100.

inHim did not acknowledge that WLC's reason for voting was original at the time, which feels like an attempt to undermine its legitimacy as an opinion.

inHim did not acknowledge that WLC almost certainly understood chesskid's no lynch vote was not a serious attempt to get a no lynch result. That accounted for a good chunk of the page 2-3 discussion, making it redundant for WLC to need to comment on it directly.

Hypocritical, vote sitter, misleading vote placer, and under-researched case maker do not add up to a town player. I have nothing more to add unless someone will debate these points directly instead of blindly stating that "inhim is town just because".

-----

Ah that's true hohum. It's possible Mina is stalling. Maybe she is just taking the easier parts of the game first and saving the bigger, more wordy part for last. Either way it's important for her to really delve into it and also not to be voting someone she has a town read on. Did she just forget?

[Jahudo]

Are there two inhim's in this game? Have I only seen the evil twin and you guys are hanging out with the good one? [/jokes]

a)why does not acknowledging it matter when wlc proceeded to do BOATLOADS OF NOTHING after that point (aka remained a good vote)
b)undermind the legit- okay no. Ignoring something is not I AM SECRETLY MAKING YOU LOOK WORSE KEKEKEKE

We've already been through this. You should know this if you are reading. Its because inHim DID argue WLC was using a non-original point. Here is where he even admits it:

I was upset he was using that outdated reason.

Ok, I see it now.
<snip>
WLC's point had not been specifically addressed at the time of his vote.

That was untrue so its undermining that aspect of what is being argued. The rest of it, that WLC is doing boatloads of nothing is a separate issue altogether so it doesn't justify this action.

-----

Saying that someone Didn't point out something as part of a case against him is still pretty stupid IMO. Yes it might have been what you would have done in his position, but inhims is a different person AND he had already voted wlc before the explanation went down and wlc remained a good vote past the explanation because of his general uselessness.

The explanation was there before inHim voted. Here is the proof:

I really don't get why you would vote No Lynch during random voting stage. If you're not trying to tie yourself to anyone

That indicates he did not think chesskid was arguing no lynch seriously. And once again it doesn't matter in this aspect of the case whether or not WLC is being general uselessness, it doesn't allow you to throw mud where it doesn't belong. That is bolstering a case for the sake of bolstering it, not because its the truth.

-----

Why are you giving maybes and possibilities and reasons why Mina may still be town even though you think it's scummy instead of trying to read her alignment. This is the exact same thing I've been going on about with you earlier- It doesn't look like you're putting ANY effort into trying to read Mina, just giving an explanation for why she is what alignment she is. (which is probably town)

A) I didn't call it scummy.

B) I'm a player who asks before accusing so you shouldn't be surprised at this point in the game. I don't get the reference of doing ISO's in alphabetical order but I assume there is one. And her cut-off point was just before inhim and myself but its both possible that one could have planned to cut off there for a number of reason or unintentionally ran out of time. There's no good reason to assume the worst and accuse her now. She has time to come back.

[Jahudo]

EBWOP: Gamma, I have the perfect reaction image for when you finally see the light. So hurry up!

[Jahudo]

Yeah that is how I read it first and foremost, Gamma. He doesn't see how it could have been a serious vote, so he decided it wasn't and from that saw that scum might use a joke to avoid connections.

Stalling would be scummy but I include the alternate theory that she ran out of time and energy, which is what she said. I'm leaning towards the time and energy, otherwise she wouldn't be a null read for me like I said. If she's posting elsewhere on the site and ignoring this thread that would be the difference maker for me, like it was for Espy.

I have an idea of why Mina as town would still be voting someone she has a town read on. I'd like to see why she did before I say what it is.

[Jahudo]

This is a PEDIT at the end of a longer post. 7 minutes after WLC post. It's a knee-jerk-reaction type vote post. It's a SCUMPUTER impulse post, not a "let me write a deliberate case" post. It's also incredibly obvious that WLC's post would tug many guts easily. It's completely believable.

That's your opinion then. I believe its more likely to come from scum because it doesn't require checking any facts and they can leap onto that gut string.

asking this from espy and stating own exact post-answer stance would be conflicting strategies for information gathering. it's psychologically way more effective when people don't know exactly what you think when asking their stance on a specific thing.

Except he wasn't asking Espy about the defense. He was asking him about the original vote post. That is not a good excuse for ignoring the person you are voting.

First paragraph, what? Look at the inhIm lines. They are consistent. Second paragraph, again, what? inHim only ever said GIDDYAP to chesskid. inHim: "I didn't slip to chesskid's reasoning", not implying he agreed on reasoning but target. Jahudo: "why didn't say aloud that you agree, you scum."

It was a sign of encouragement. He was advertising the wagon using chesskid's vote, that's as good as an endorsement.

He never said WLC was not original or not.

Not in the vote post but later on he admitted that he did think that way from the start.

A point can be original and still easy, side-lining, concerning old rehashed stuff, omitting all themes moving somewhere.

So you would say it did in this case? Easy, sure. Side-lining, what? Rehashed, no.

You have some nerve to call inHim a vote sitter - he's been one of the most dynamic I think, while self-proclaimedly sit hard on your vote, and launched at inHim at a point in time you were starting to get pressure for being overly moderate. Hypocrit - maybe yeah with the coy business, but I guarantee you I could go and find one such instance from every so far participating player in this game.(e.g. previous sentence for you). The rest is misunderstanding, genuine or deliberate.

He's a vote sitter because he hasn't grilled WLC with questions. I did to inHim early on but now I'm very confident he is scum, so now I'm mostly trying to clarify my position to anyone who'd listen and waiting for the questions I asked Fluttershy, etc.

[Jahudo]

LYNCH THE DUDE THAT IS TRIPPING EVERY SCUMTELL GAMMA HAS.

So I take it nothing short of a Jahudo town flip would help you start to see inHim as scummy? Ah who am I kidding, I'd still look like I was oatmeal.

I'm starting to wonder if we'll have enough votes for a lynch. There are plenty of lurkers, my wagon could probably be L-3 right now and I don't think anyone else has expressed suspicion of inHim so it's realistically L-4 right now. So we better figure something out this week and hope Pinkie Pie / Fluttershy / WLC / Espy come back in earnest.

[Jahudo]

I'd compromise on a Fluttershy lynch first; maybe a WLC wagon too. (just because inHim looks scum doesn't mean WLC can't also be scum)

My Little Espy just read the thread. I know I've turned into the great wall of Equestria but its good stuff. I promise.
Equinox, it looks like you are putting more effort into catching up so hopefully you'll get there soon and you can take a harder stance on this.

No comment on the past few pages inhim? One of these days... BANG! ZOOM! STRAIGHT TO THE MOON!

jahuuudo if inhims read it like I did is it still UBERLYINGSCUMOMG because I don't think it is.

How could he have read it like you did if he admitted WLC was trying to "use that outdated reason". I still can't trust his clarification on that post after I called him out for it because scum could just make the clarification people want to hear. It shouldn't be an ordeal to get him to say what he really meant. So I take at face value what he said when his feet were to the fire and he wanted to explain his position. He said it was DAT OUTDATED REASON, which indicates he thought it was DAT LONGING REASON.

1-Oatmeal?

And then I said oatmeal, are you crazy?

---------------

Ha. You did NOT find it scummy originally.

It took a page or two to realize he was going nowhere with that vote when it became even more obvious that he was not acknowledging the specifics of WLC.

And past the revision, that's a stance that is not based in the real world. That is a stance that will call common playstyles in todays' meta scummy. You have said you do not find chesskid's playstyle as such scummy.

I was referring to chesskid all along, he was the one that pointed out WLC talked about one person and voted another. He also showed good interrogation tactics earlier on with TheLonging, but inHim's comments back then were more like an observer.

reasonable scum = scum that is very hard to attack with convincing arguments. you should know that, and that sentence shows you do know that - you're excellent at surviving as scum yourself.

I think scum are not as likely to vote someone they didn't intend to vote, because scum know who everybody is and sees them as viable or not viable targets. (BTW, where did you see me as scum?)

he said himself EXACTLY that he was encouraging the WAGON.

That was after I called him out. In the moment he only said GIDDYAP, and since chesskid had stated his opinion and inHim had to have read it, that sounds like an opinion on it.

That was not relevant to his reasoning.

It's completely relevant! He was under the impression that WLC was voting for an old reason but the new reason was stated in WLC's vote post. So he votes someone but doesn't read the post he finds scummy. That's bad.

You are clearly thinking it's weak and from an arbitrary part of the game.

That's my opinion, but I also didn't say his opinion was invalid or scummy.

---------------

Unless you can bold where he said that, I don't think that is what he meant. He seems to make it clear in those points what he meant.

Its the part where he says "I was upset he was using that outdated reason". I'll explain why I don't like buy his clarification later.

Hmm, how I am being hypocritical? I think his theory about scum using the no-lynch is faulty. As for you not voting, I mentioned that it was scummy, but I know it should be treated as a null. You are not to first person I have seen like that.

You didn't mention before that you are treating it as null, hence why I was under the impression you still thought that it was scummy not to vote before having a serious vote and why I found it opportunistic.

Here it is so you can read what he said after that point that Jahudo DOESN'T quote.

Here is the qoute then:

chesskid has posted more than that No Lynch vote, and I placed my vote on the reasoning that WLC's vote was made without considering the other behavior of chesskid/TheLonging/the person he was placing the vote on at that time.

The "other behavior" is relating to TheLonging not understanding that it was a joke and how he dug into chesskid without weighing the plausibility of that being true. That was the point of the wagon on TheLonging and everypony has seemed to forget it and stopped talking about it. Now why in Equestria would WLC have to say anything more than he already did on that topic if he was already under the impression that the no lynch vote was not serious?

[Jahudo]

Hi CES. I like to frustrate people to no end, what can I say. I'm serious about inHim being scums though.

Pinkie Pie must be throwing a scummy party. How about you give your opinion on inHim before you start asking other people to give theirs? Also have you read the whole thread? You hadn't as of post 242.

@WLC: Deadline is coming soon. What will you do if Pinkie Pie doesn't get more votes? Can you expand upon your Jahudo and inHim reads because it looks like you are still open to either of us being scum. Also I'm not sure what you are referring to with me "defending Equinox's claim"? I called it and Espy's "softclaim" more null tells than anything.

Jahudros you are missing the entire point.
If inhims has been saying that wlc meant "i can't think of a reason for chess's behavior [AS TOWN], then it's exactly the same stuff that longing and inhims and chess already talked about, hence outdated reason. it's only been gone over if you interpret it as "i can't think of that as [a serious vote].

I believe I have evidence that he did interpret it as "serious vote" and not "as town". I believe "using that outdated reason" is evidence. You may disagree but I think it makes sense.

1-Oatmeal?

And then I said oatmeal, are you crazy?

Yes, but I don't really get the connection between oatmeal and not being listened to.[/quote]Okay, I've heard it used in this fandom as oatmeal is synonymous with the word crazy. You even if I flip town you may still think my ideas are crazy. I don't mean it as an offense to anyone. It's a frustration on my part that with each new person saying my case holds no weight, I feel like I have to either be a crazy genius or just plain crazy.

[Jahudo]

CES's play so far is not a surprise. I think he once took an oath against posting more than three lines at a time. I'm not the one to ask about his alignment haha, but chesskid was still on the town side of the spectrum when he lost all interest in the game (null tell).

Cool Mina is still here, says she'll explain why her vote is still on inHim.

Espy, Equinox, Pinkie, Fluttershy, WLC should say whether they would be voting myself or inHim if they were the only two allowed choices (even if they are not needed for a lynch today).

Hey Primate, if you are seeing a whole bunch of stuff from me that looks like running in circles I apologize. I can try and point you to any answer you may need on my end.

Hugs to the rest of you.

[Jahudo]

So unless the lurkers or Primate want to talk about lynching inHim, I'm going to spend the next couple of days as if I won't be around day 2...spewing things that may not be clear to me now but might show up later if current trends continue.

I figure one scum was able to get a lot of posts in and really establish themselves as an active "contributing" player. Someone that tries to look like they are invested in scum and acting like a leader for people to rally behind on a wagon. I think that's inHim, some people think that's me, but in general I've seen scum try and get a trusted voice in a game that has plenty of lurkers and low contributors. Gamma and hohum are the highest posters but I think that is normal for them so you can't fault them for it blindly. If they were scum they'd just have an even easier time filling that role. UncertainKitten from Objection! is one example that comes to mind from my recent games. She played this role to the extreme and I feel got caught for it by going after townies when they were still valuable pawns in her game. Basically each day she seemed to already knew who the best person to target would be, and tried to string along followers with the promise of a good result. A lot of focus was placed on getting the wagon up and getting people to acknowledge it. Questioning the player always looked like a secondary goal even if she did do that to an extent. I still think inHim's treatment of WLC looks this way.

There is probably a scum that is trying to stay as even-handed and safe as possible so they don't draw unwanted attention to themselves. It might be Equinox, Fluttershy or WLC for staying away from the Jahudo/inHim wagons. The latter two you could argue haven't posted enough to be playing the safe scum role, so maybe this player doesn't exist yet or at all. I just remember in recent memory, Kdub playing this role really well in Cowboy Bebop remix and thinking back to games where scum win fairly easily its partly because no one gets a good handle on the safe scum. From my perspective I can already imagine scum eying my wagon and wondering if they will draw more attention by joining it late and being a part of a mislynch, or avoiding it and the standard tell of "x number of scum are always on a mislynch".
Don't worry about that unless I get lynched. Or until we know both inHim and my flips.

There is also a likelyhood of a lurker scum*. I saw Haschel Cedricson play this role really well: Seinfeld Mafia. What I took from that performance is that its good to say "I like this, I don't like that, etc" but don't get involved in an issue that hasn't been explored or will not be explored without you. Join something where you can take a backseat and show off a little unique angle. In this case I am reluctant to think Espy would go against the more popular WLC wagon and try to get TheLonging back to being a popular wagon, unless WLC is scum that is. But even then I think that is an unwanted connection to a buddy for someone that realizes they are not active enough to be a leader. But so far I can still see Pinkie Pie or Fluttershy in this role. Mina looks like she wants to be active and more importantly appear active to others, but its hard to tell until she starts making conclusions that lead to votes and pressure.
*When I mean lurker, its likely they had a legitimate excused absence during the game but when they were supposed to be active or "catching up", they will exhibit a lackluster playstyle.

This doesn't mean there has to be one and only one from each group, but I've seen good examples recently so I think they are viables strategies for scum to take. It also helps in the case people go lurker hunting, the active leader scum can direct people around the lurker scum while the safe scum tries to ease any tension created between town and other scum (at least more so than they would ease tension between town vs. town).

[Jahudo]

I’ll try to make these ISO’s as short as possible.

Espy 0 – Encouraging a RVS wagon is a safe move because most people are in favor of them. I doubt scum would think they’d gain points by being a nonconformist here. Pictures in the role PMs make it likely that scum saw who they were pretending to be, so if scum saw their favorite character they’d still be happy. Null tell pls.

Espy 1 – Safe move to point out the nonconformist. In retrospect its odd he called chesskid town, because he was also a nonconformist in not placing a random vote.

Espy 3 – Response to my defense is normal and expected.

Espy 6 – Doesn’t backup his opinion, could be a way to sideways call himself town. I remember now that scum do have a reason to keep their character a secret even when they have safe character claims.

Espy 7 – A phrase-conscious scum wouldn’t like say “park my vote” about themselves.

Espy 8 – I never checked that meta. He might be justified in WLC. Again I think it’s a bold move for someone who otherwise isn’t trying to be a leader.

--------------------

Pinkie 1 – Assume that’s random vote? He probably knew it would raise eyebrows.

Pinkie 2 – Calling TL town is easy. His wagon deflated early on, that’s a good sign people are okay with him. An easy tactical read for scum to make hypothetically.

Pinkie 5 – Self-aware scum likely wouldn’t make this accusation until they have a serious vote on a scum read themselves. I suppose he could think he’s hiding behind the “still catching up” safety net.

--------------------

WLC 1 – Didn’t proofread himself to catch his vote error. Don’t think it’s a Freudian slip only because I don’t see those in games. The reasoning is new, yes it could be more involved. He makes a promise to meta chesskid that he doesn’t keep presumably.

WLC 3 – Reading a little closer. Scum may be more interested in scanning for their own name than others.

WLC 4 – Defense of his mistake is alright. Defense of his suspicion is good, but sure he could be saying more by now.

WLC 5 – Could be over defensive over “fun” comment, but not egregious. Rest of post is about people not voting scum picks. We could argue this is how WLC-scum would hide the fact he is voting based on 1 reason alone. Its not hypocritical, it could be justified if that’s really all he sees in chesskid and now he’s looking into us.

WLC 8 – Doesn’t want to talk about other chesskid stuff. This may be he doesn’t want to fall into the trap of “oh look who only presents content when under pressure”.

WLC 10 – Reads are often more gut based or generalized. Some neutrals, others feel like they could dip into neutral easily. His reads are very “go with the flow” not trying to take an unpopular stance. Maybe coincidence, maybe result of too many neutrals. Lurker voting is a cop out at this point in the day.

[Jahudo]

I think we can do better than jahudo vs. WLC, but it goes without saying (and I'm going to say it anyway) that I'd compromise on a WLC lynch to save someone who I know is town, even though WLC has been more lurkish and underwhelming than scummy.

abstaining to vote for quite some time

Are you arguing that this is similar to "not tying oneself to a vote"? Because I got flack for not random voting before I got flack for not serious voting. I knew it was going against the grain, and that it would put me under the spotlight. So I'm not sure you could accurately argue I was trying to avoid the spotlight.

But on the other aspect of voting, where you define your position and that makes it harder for you to change it, I argue I was able to do that without voting. I would say I didn't like wagons and wouldn't join them. That is limiting myself, something scum don't want to do.

his posts feel a lot more 'controlled' than inhim's. Inhim has a bit of the chaos I feel that's associated with a townie who doesn't exactly know what, whereas Jahudo's post feel more decided yet uncommitting (building in safeguards).

How am I uncommitted to my inHim suspicions? I only was in instances where I felt clarifications would be helpful in confirming or disproving my ideas about him. That is my way of showing I don't know exactly what is happening, and how I am trying to figure things out.

When you talk about chaos I think of vague statements and the lack of communication inHim had with WLC while voting him. That might be a sign of uncertainty among some playstyles, but it's harder to accept this player is trying to figure things out.

[Jahudo]

L-1, I'll claim now. It should be enough time for everyone to react.

Princess Celestia, Sovereign of Equestria. I have a 1 shot power to make two players temporary neighbors. I have to submit that action during the day and it will go into effect for that night only.

So even if I am lynched I can still make a neighborhood if anyone wants one.

I crumbed my character role a few times:

A new game, a new sunrise.

My first post, a nod to Celestia rising the sun.

Elements of Harmony (town):
...
Invited to the Gala (lean town):
....
Not so dearest students (inactive/lurkers):
....
Imprisoned in the place they were banished to (lean scum / scum):

All things related to Celestia in the show.

I think you need to spend some time alone on the moon. A millennium should do it.

I couldn't resist using this line.

He lied and must be banished to the moon.

And again.

One of these days... BANG! ZOOM! STRAIGHT TO THE MOON!

One more time.

[Jahudo]

Oh, and I can't be one of the neighbors. I had to get that clarification from the mod.

[Jahudo]

@Jahudo: From what I remember of Seinfeld mafia, most of the scumteam played lurk2victory. Granted, the setup also encouraged it as well. Do you really think that the lurkers this game are more likely to be scum?

The Fonz and Talitha both had more posts than you Kats, and the Fonz was even a replacement. Heck, I replaced into that game 1 month to the day after the game began and I still ended up with more posts than HC. He was a special case but didn't get enough attention for it.

I think its good odds that one of the low posters is scum. It's a good strategy only if they realize that their actual V/LA (and it looks like plenty gave excuses and just didn't disappear for times) put them into a situation where they fell behind and were in constant catch-up mode.

[Jahudo]

A Pinkie Pie lynch would be bad today, even though it looks like he's still random voting.
I say a lurker can be scum but we don't have enough posts from the lurkers to distinguish them much. So we could be wrong about Pinkie and tomorrow there's another lurker that begins to look worse. Lynching lurker after lurker is a bad practice. Its better to get it right mid-game the first time.

WLC got a lot of shit up front about something that he did correctly and everyone started reading him as if he were scum somewhat unfairly after that. I'm not exactly sure why. I need to reread WLC, but I definitely think Jahudo is town.

Because his wagon was scum-driven, that's why. He hasn't deserved the wagon on him until recently when it looks like he's still hesitant to place several people outside neutral reads.

[Jahudo]

My schedule is changing this month because of traveling so I'll probably only post once a day.

Time to analyze the lynch wagon:

- Primate was always straight-forward about wanting a WLC lynch and not wanting a Jahudo lynch, though didn't give much reason whether that was due to time constraints or the nature of his case?

- Fluttershy's change does confuse me. She was voting for me then came up with some piece of information that made her unvote me. She never explained what this was:

I went back and fully isoed him I found something I really missed.

So what was it? Otherwise I can't follow why she'd say in one post that I was twisting inHim words, then in the next saying that if forced to she'd vote him over me.

- Ojanen's vote switch from me to WLC was suspicious because she isolates one aspect and ignores the rest. She claims that WLC shouldn't be voting a lurker that doesn't have a real wagon on them at that point in the game. She says he should instead take a stance on Jahudo vs. inHim, like some of us also asked of him. But she ignores where, in that same post, he does mention he has scum reads on both of us. And he does, before she votes him, make a choice to vote me. Clearly he was weighing his scum reads at the time and pressuring a lurker until he was ready to make that choice. She doesn't even bother to analyze that post and argue that his Jahudo vote is a bad timing, etc, which makes me question if she really wanted to talk about it.

- CES's vote has its questions but I should probably keep in mind that it is CES. He didn't label WLC as a top three suspect before his vote, but the wagon was the only other big one at the time. It's understandable he places some value in claims that can be tested. I just wish there was a little more info from him day 1 to help explain where WLC was on his reads and if I was his top suspect or just the top wagon at that time too. Some of that can be excused by being a late replacement, so I don't feel bad about his voting.

- hohum I had the feeling he thought both myself and WLC were lean town most of the day. But I trust he was very concerned with getting a lynch passed and his late vote, after trying to get other wagons to form, looks like a town effort to me.

- Espy's vote could have easily been done by town to ensure a lynch happened. Even though he saw WLC as scum-bait and me as just plain scum, in order to get a Jahudo lynch passed at his point would have required some votes from no-shows Pinkie Pie, Mina, and a vote from Equinox. I think town or scum can easily justify that position so its pretty null. It would have been more townish if he had been more active in trying to get his preferred lynch going earlier, instead of waiting to ISO me and just voting me without any comment.

- Equinox early on had both myself and WLC as more scummy than not. As the day went along he argued that myself and inHim could be having a town on town argument and that argument is fair enough, although I'd be interested to hear more of the details.
There's also the fact that he had to vote WLC but overall his vote was fine.

Pinkie and Mina looked like they only just showed up around the L-1 vote and were not fully caught up. Well, Mina looked more aware of all the details but was still trying to analyze possibilities of my claim and people's voting motivations. Pinkie looked lost. inHim's lack of a vote is understandable, though it would be fun to hear his reasoning in his own words to see if I guessed why. I still have a scum read on him, but my vote is going elsewhere right now.

----------

I think the worst WLC vote, that also tipped the momentum the most, should be discussed at the start of today.

@Ojanen: Why base your argument on something WLC was not doing by the time you voted? (that he wasn't taking a stand on Jahudo vs. inHim)

Why didn't you mention WLC had scum reads on both Jahudo and inHim in the post you had a problem with? Why didn't you see that as a hurdle in making that stand? Why didn't you ask him to weigh the options?

I see you were trying to frame him as a player that wasn't reacting in the moment, but then what makes him different than the other players who weren't analyzing Jahudo vs. inHim until later on (Espy, Equinox, Fluttershy)

It was also clear before his Pinkie Pie vote post that he had not given any reads on any other player besides that one tell on chesskid. You are pointing something out that has been apparent to everyone the whole time. Your reaction would have been the same no matter how he framed that post, because it took so late to get there. That's what makes me wonder why the case isn't framed around him being a normal lurker or not.

vote: Ojanen

[Jahudo]

I still don't see any sign of Mina intentionally lurking. I don't have a strong feeling about her so that is an area I will be focusing on regardless today.

And even the most recent posts people are calling townish...I mean, it's good that he was trying to contribute before he died, but I would have liked more in the way of concrete reads and less theory discussion. Particularly since his big post essentially just said, "Scum might be active, or scum might be safe, or scum might be lurking," without really ranking people in terms of suspiciousness.

I did actually. I said inHim was the active scum while Gamma and hohum are active town, Pinkie or Flutter was the lurker scum but you and Espy weren't, and the balanced scum were probably too under the radar. I might revise that after seeing the end of the day. There's still some ways to analyze whether people had the opportunity to take a harder stance earlier or to push their preferred wagon more before they had to settle on WLC in order to get anything passed.

[Jahudo]

I haven't used it yet because I was waiting to see if anyone in particular wanted it. But I can pair whoever if anyone wants me to confirm my role.

@Equinox: Is there any reason you picked Espy over Pinkie Pie (since you also mention Mina in that post)?

[Jahudo]

No problem, hohum. And that makes sense to me, Equinox.

[Jahudo]

I

specifically

quoted from his "reads of everybody" post his reads,

only

his reads on inHim, you and Pinkie. My subsequent EBWOP underlines this by noting I forgot to put [...] marks to indicate it wasn't the whole post. I emphatically wasn't ignoring it.

There is a difference between acknowledging that he did talk about every player, and acknowledging that you have an interpretation on the details. You didn't mention how he had scum reads on both of us and what that meant for his vote. You forced that conclusion about him just settling with a lurker without first pressuring him about why he didn't make a decision between Jahudo and inHim scum reads. Your thought process doesn't look town there.

My vote was based on reaction timings. Inhim and you were at L-3, not too long to deadline, he states scumreads on both but chooses to sideline with an ultra-classical lurker vote (has anyone ever seen a single obviously not feasible lynch wagon lurker vote late in the day be useful?); then a couple of days later the wagons aren't moving anywhere, he himself has gained a vote, and he votes between Jah. inHim with recycled feeling arguments.
I got a (obviously false) gut feeling from the Jahudo vote and went back to his iso. The reaction thing was also referring to the fact that he found inhim's attack on him suspect late in the day, but did not state anything to that direction while initially defending himself.

Again you did not characterize it that way, so now it just looks like you are trying to revise the past. The reaction timings is another suspicion but again I don't understand how you act like its new to you at that time. Didn't you know he was that big of a lurker on your initial read? So what, you were just waiting to throw that suspicion out there when he finally did try to contribute? I'm not used to seeing people lay traps for lurkers like that.

I also didn't like him saying that Equinox might be scum with you despite his townread on Equi - he acknowledged it so not talking about contradiction, rather the ease on which to give up a townread in favour of something as (in my view of mafia) magnificently weak as D1 buddy guesses without any flips.

Any reason why you didn't bring that up back then?

Jahudo: what is your position on inHim after flips?

Still scum. I wasn't convincing anyone all yesterday so I figure the best thing to do is take a step back and focus on looking for scum elsewhere. If I see him doing new scummy stuff, you bet I'll try and convince people of him.

also Jahudo: she, not he. we've played as scum together. you've helped me fake role pm screenshots. I'm OJ from Ojando hydra from Adel's hydra double games.

I didn't call you a he, but I did call you a she seven times.

meant to ask: state my scum-motivation for jumping to WLC from you if you are town, please.

Plenty of possible reasons. Two vote changes to my wagon before your vote switch off, meant it was still at L-2 and had the possibility of being the lynch without your help. Scum would want that. But even if you were hopeful to be a part of a WLC lynch, there is still the notion that my wagon could be viable on day 2 regardless of WLC's alignment. A WLC day 2 wagon could be less viable if he were to commit to the game and make reads, not be a lurker.

[Jahudo]

I only have a problem with that confirmation plan if it requires me to limit my voting focus. I'd rather just be lynched than turn into even a limited proxy.
We can just switch out one of the three people you named in case they get a healthy wagon on them. Or are they not an arbitrary selection?

I guess I could have been more elaborate, but it should be obvious I specifically choose to cut and paste the quotes I chose to make a point on him having scum reads on both you and inhim. what other purpose do you think the quoting of 3 snipped passages serves? come on. i didn't think it was necessary to say "look, he says here this" when the scumreads stand right there, and I continue to say that vote was for plain lurker while both inhim and jahudo are viable wagons, and his previous voted (chesskid) is also still hated by him - the whole argument stands on the premises I quoted.

I think you are backtracking now. You actually made it clear that those quotes were meant to highlight WLC's lack of Jahudo and inHim reads before that point. That he had a problem with inHim's earlier play but hadn't mentioned it until then. That's what you actually talked about, not how he could justify having two scum reads on two larger wagons and not voting one of them.

I didn't question before voting because it was 2 days to deadline. I wanted my vote in play, creating a dynamic where it would be likelier to have competing wagons on shady characters instead of the obvtown inHim. Also, I meant to follow situation, perhaps come back to you, but life got in the way and I never saw the thread again before hammer again.

Fair enough that you wanted to draw more attention to WLC's lack of good scumhunting around decision time, but my main point remains that you didn't ask the real questions while you placed the vote.

I did not state in as many words as now but all of it is perfectly compatible. Mine was a reaction vote to gut on WLC simul; went back and checked his iso; posted about 15 min later a short elaboration on what bothered me in the iso.
Also, I'm a replacement. I posted in the thread from SUNDAY to WEDNESDAY (next access WLC hammered). started cathing up sunday. 35 hour traveling v/la monday/tuesday. no real linear all-encompassing catch up post. I wasn't waiting anything; things were occuring to me naturally late; still need another read for proper internalizement of late D1.

But are you telling me you didn't get that vibe off WLC when you read? It really seemed as though you were surprised he hadn't talked about anyone.

It's how gut works. A post bothers you. AFTER that you try to pick it apart. reasoning=gut that you have subjected to self-reflection and deciphered to some extent.
the Equi thing was on my mind when I read the vote post and wrote a P-EDIT. then I went back and looked at the iso and posted about that. now I looked at the page again, remembered the bad feeling andf picked it apart.

So what made you think it was less likely that WLC did the same thing? Sure it took him ten days but in that time he wasn't posting much else, claimed not to have free time, and might have spent some of that time just reading the thread and staying on the scumtell he felt was straight-forward and clear.

Gamma was the nightkill. For being universally seen as obvtown, I expect. Buuuut. Let's say you were town, and inHim was scum. Scum kill huge defender of one of their own, AND the biggest attacker of you (in turn the biggest attacker of inHim-hyposcum). Makes the whole dynamics muuch more unpredictable. There's always wifom involved in nightkill analyze, but this one isn't obvious enough (a common enough thought pattern brought up) to be a likely candidate for mindfuck shenigans - scum benefit for keeping Gamma alive to defend inHIm and attack you is tangible.
I say Gamma kill solidifies my TOWN!!!! read on inHIm.
Also, interesting if you're still "certain" inhIm is scum and think I'm a buddy white knighting him like hell.

I try not to speculate on night kills and I'm not interested in arguing connections until we get our first scum flip. But those theories do not make me think any less of my opinions.

[Jahudo]

unvote

I'll go along with hohum's plan today because it sounds like he does have inside info that might get to a better read on other players not just myself. I don't know how but I'll trust him for now.

welcome glados. you bring up an interesting take on fluttershy's explanation for unvoting me around deadline. i dont find it as unusual to disregard the fact that scum have fakeclaims, because gamma was willing to do that with equinox. i still think its a null tell but some town will disagree.

I was trying to be obvious with my crumbing by the time I said "banish to the moon" so I don't think its town or scum for fluttershy to pick up on the crumbing. I can't think of any problem I have with her unvote actually, because the timing looks right and the way she had it as a "secret unvote reasoning" makes her more open to criticism if my mislynch had gone through and people were looking for bad scum hop-offs or hop-ons.

I don't know who to vote at the moment. Mina's catchup mode is getting old the longer its been since goofbash ended and this being a mini game that's not really booming with new pages each day. I just want to know her take on jahudo vs. inhim.

re: inhim 543
fluttershy's vote was slightly concerning because I like openness in games but with her defense I see it makes sense.
I can't read CES well, his vote and actions looked normal for him yesterday.
I'm more suspicious of Espy than feeling good about him. It has to do with a lack of expanding on his opinions of WLC being scum bait and me looking like scum when there was still time to argue the wagon one wanted and not the one they had to settle for and not being faulted for disagreeing with it.
Equinox's vote was okay and his play was okay. I think he was clearer with his read changes than others. I think that slot is townish.

I might vote espy. I need to iso him again when i have more time.

[Jahudo]

holy fucking hell Espe is useless.

Go look at time left to lynch.

Espy explain this post. Why did you just leave the discussion at that and not give people a real answer about your reads?
And you were still voting me in this post but also must have seen two quick votes on WLC. Why did you not try to argue for the wagon you preferred at this point? Why didn't you say whether WLC still looked like lynch bait or something to that extent?

I can't think of a good excuse why you wouldn't do that if you were serious about preferring my wagon over WLC's. You had just ISO'ed so you didn't need to read anything to make a post with some opinions. I have a hard time believing you couldn't take a few minutes to write something more.

[Jahudo]

Because at the time all I wanted was a lynch. I thought WLC was town. He wasn't my preferred lynch. but when you are that close to deadline it is a bit hard to derail the wagon when the only other competing wagon had just been derailed itself.

No, I'm talking about the time before my wagon derailed. When my wagon was the largest one, you were sitting there and not saying why it was better than the WLC wagon that was

almost

as large.

People asked you to explain yourself, you made a post just to say you didn't have time to explain yourself. So explain that now.

[Jahudo]

confound these ponies they drive me to pressure wagons. I can't vote ojanen, I would vote inhim but I'm the only one who thinks he's scum so my vote would be about as useful as not voting.

hohum, primate, ces, glados, are prob. town. some of that is predecessors and/or wishful thinking.

pinkie pie now at least seems like he's owning up to his mina read by saying he's confident in it. if his meta is lurking I guess I should go look into his games for some differences in alignment behavior.

Fluttershy's recent post looks like she isn't reading closely-- hohum didn't talk about voting maziek. I'm not sure what to think of that because I'm not sure where she was trying to go with that line of discussion on hohum. "odd list you have here" / "puzzling how you came to this list" on the surface it sounds like uncertain questioning but it could be an attempt to throw mud in his direction. Right now I don't see the latter option being plausible but that still doesn't answer what else she is thinking on this subject or where she will say she got her facts mixed up.

Finding out espy is spending 50 posts on mish mash actually doesn't surprise me. Lots of players are like that with mish mash but its like pulling teeth to get them into mafia games. A wagon might help reverse that, and I would support one based on what I've been saying lately, but I also feel its important that even he took a stand on the Jahudo/inhim thread clogger.

I'm realizing this with the days before deadline ticking down again, that if we want this game to not be a rush of unprepared ideas at the end, we need to give opinions on all the big issues. Mina needs to do that one particular thing that is for the good of the town, so until that happens I think she's the best "pressure wagon" to have right now.

Vote: Mina

[Jahudo]

I thought hohum's plan was to pick one of {hohum, primate, ojanen} and then one other person? Not two from that first group. I will do it today but I'm waiting until later so I accidentally don't pick one person we end up lynching. So it would be a good idea to ask me if I'm ready before we hammer.
--------------------
I forgot to show my neighbor breadcrumb when I claimed. It is easier for me to remember all those sun and moon jokes I made for fun.

Softclaiming a character claim =/= softclaiming useful information, except in the rare occasion when a theme game has a role that involves a specific other character (ex: "You are Snips, each night you can target someone to see if they are Snails. If they are, you become neighbors") Other than that I don't see how softclaiming one's character affects the game in the slightest.

I had to change the mechanics of my role to fit the point I was trying to make, but I purposely chose to talk about a neighborizer when I was commenting on softclaiming useful information.
---------------------
I realize saying that I'm going to pressure vote is dumb and I did so reluctantly, but I felt like I was just waiting on people otherwise. I thought going into this game I wouldn't have to do that, but I didn't account for the need to feel like I'm trying every avenue of scumhunting to get to better reads.
-----------------------
Espy weighed in on jahudo vs inhim by voting me but I didn't read that as a concession vote. inHim had 3 votes at the time and I had 5. I think there was enough people off those two wagons (five) and enough time left on the clock (46 hours I think?) to be voting someone you thought was scum. My issue with him is not that he made that choice, but that after making that choice he lurked instead of arguing for his preference while the decision was still up in the air.
-----------------------
Mina, you more or less said hohum looked town in spite of his inHim case, which gave you a kneejerk reaction in favor of inHim. That's where I got the impression you had inHim on the positive side of neutral. What exactly were you looking at when you read hohum's inHim case? Did you just not like his approach to finding inHim suspicious?
And I figured you were just keeping your vote on until you switched to another vote. I've seen people who just can't stand to be in the unvoting column ever. Its not an interesting or important theory, just something I didn't feel like stepping on your toes by giving a possible answer.

[Jahudo]

@Katsuki: Do you remember any games where you lurked a lot? I keep finding your more active games and its hard to compare. Though its been fun to read all your interaction with fate.

... Processing ...

Jahudo, I am going to re-ask you to explain this quote:

I have an idea of why Mina as town would still be voting someone she has a town read on. I'd like to see why she did before I say what it is.

I just answered it are you asking me to re-word it or you didn't see this?:

And I figured you were just keeping your vote on until you switched to another vote. I've seen people who just can't stand to be in the unvoting column ever. Its not an interesting or important theory, just something I didn't feel like stepping on your toes by giving a possible answer.

Basically I've seen players use that rationale as town even though it exaggerates the confidence they have in their vote. The difference between town and scum using this excuse is that town should work to change their vote in a timely manner, because they should feel motivated to put their vote where they want it.

If Mina really thought inHim was town, or more on the positive side of neutral, AND it can be argued that she had the information to place a good vote late day 1, then I think she looks scummy.

I think the first part is possible because of how she characterized inHim in relation to hohum so I'm trying to sort out any other possibilities there. She now mentions that it seemed like a good idea to keep the pressure on inHim but that doesn't sound right when at the same time she was criticizing hohum's case on inHim.

I am also concerned she had a better grasp on the Jahudo/inHim argument than she let on, because her opinion hasn't really changed besides adding in the details. She characterizes it now as a tunnel wagon and blowing things out of proportion, that it was a distraction. But she seemed to also have that opinion back on day 1 when she called it bickering and wanted to smack us both. That seemed to indicate she didn't think she would find anything important, but that was the main thing holding her back from changing a vote to someone she was already calling suspicious like Espy or maybe either Fluttershy or Equinox.

So my vote isn't pressure anymore, it's serious.

[Jahudo]

One off the top of my head is Return to Liten mafia (hydra of me + MPR again). Same stuff that game - I lurked, MPR flaked.

you were apathypluscupcakes i take it. i'm looking at mini games mostly since larger ones could skew your activity and content ratios. early game in liten looks the same pretty much. i also found a cults and masons game that looks similar here and you were town there. I also see something different from your scum game on wait your turn tex. Although part of that could be Fate influence. He should replace in here and make it easier for us all. :hopes:

Anyway i feel a little better about understanding your style of playing. So far you look like your town self. If i see a scum nuance I'll point it out.

[Jahudo]

Hey Lobster. Please be active!

He doesn't follow up any of these 3 wagons with prodding or pushing into the people on these wagons.

Part of me doesn't want to derail an early pressure wagon unless I think it has a fake foundation. If I just don't see the point in pressuring someone for a reaction, doesn't mean I think its a bad way for other people to get their reads.

Equinox(glados): at first didnt understand the softclaim (Idk the flavor of mlp) I like equinox. Leaning town. His 105 is good, I agreed with his view on maizek eventually.

He used a southern accent that only makes sense for one character in the show. I don't think we ever picked up on a role softclaim. Do you think softclaiming a character is an alignment tell either way?

Chesskid(CES): looks like town chesskid I played with before. Leaning town also because he backed off TL.

Just curious, have you seen a scum chesskid game? I agree his behavior here was normal for him as a player.

Inhim: his 62 was annoying to read, I think his TL vote was warrented. I liked his post 67, 88, however, his 87 was weird, why semi apologize to TL?

That's a fair assessment to that point. I'm looking forward to your take on post 90.

[Jahudo]

Sorry to hear that Ojanen, but you gotta put real life first.

Hey Charlie! At least you won't be distracted by red pandas when you are catching up.

however your 633 is confusing, so...you'll point out scummy stuff that sprinkle pie says....to sprinkle pie? well, id certainly hope so, but my interpretation of this is that you won't hold it agaisnt them.

I kinda was stating the obvious when talking about his meta. Basically I don't think the activity level or content within his posts is unusual. I won't hold him against that but I would if I start seeing a suspicious behavior that he used in a previous scum game that wasn't in a previous town game.

[Jahudo]

unvote

Unvoting to prevent an accidental / "accidental" hammer. It would also be nice to have Charlie and maybe even the Espy replacement caught up today.

Mina, can you explain why you don't like my vote when you get the chance next? I'm not surprised when anyone doesn't like a vote on themselves but you made it seem like mine was a special case in your eyes.

And maybe you can elaborate on what you think of each vote on your wagon. You said you don't like any votes really, but can you piece out which ones look scummier and if any look like lazy or misguided town?

What do you think of Espy finally deciding to replace out? Does that move affect your opinion of him? And do you think your read on him is complete enough to be a solid day 2 lynch in your mind?

-------

@LobsterCatapult: First off I think Equinox's comment was town of him to say, I feel like scum wouldn't have any reason to continue putting up a charade at that point but town might still be playing the guessing game even when they realize they cannot keep up with the game as they'd like.

I am considering what he said about Katsuki lurking more as scum but so far I haven't seen anything revealing in my meta search. There are plenty of recent mini games where Kats has posted a lot but said little so its a slightly different kind of lurking here where he's posted little and said little. I also think the town and scum games I decided to compare had about the same number of posts so I'm leaning towards believing his claim that he lurks when he's busy. It is something to keep in mind though.

[Jahudo]

Oh, and neither Oj or Espy replacing out timings concern me. I believe Oj is serious in saying she's burned out from playing. Espy wasn't under much pressure where he would think to lurk and he could have coasted if he wanted to. He is still in other games so the only question is whether he was just having trouble getting into this game in general or if his alignment played a part in it. It might be worth checking if he likes playing one side over the other.

[Jahudo]

Page 6 & 7

+1 Arguments for lynching Equinox

What is this? I don't remember this.

Page 8

Can somebody explain to me why are lists floating around?

This is referring to Gamma and I making scumlists in back to back posts. Are you taking an issue with any part of it?

I stop to think about how much "Town points" Jahudo has accumulated... I don't usually use these points system, but if I do then I'll say he's too Town to be Town... make sense yes? Yes, it does. I'm a bit cautious about him from now on...

I'm kinda surprised to hear you say this. Gamma and others didn't get any overwhelming town sense from me. Do you disagree with his opinion in any specific ways?
Why do you think the other active players didn't make as large an impression on you up to this point?

Page 9

Gammagooey says that both nHimshallibe and hohum are Town (This is notable)

Notable as in, you agree with him?

Page 10

chesskid3 +100 WTF

His inhim vote? Can you elaborate on what you think of it?

I also think hohum is right up there in the first tier of vocal players.

[Jahudo]

Why does Feysal need a case against Equinox/GLaDOS? Is that a reference to something I don't get?

Charlie, you don't need to listen to cupcakes. No one needs to listen to cupcakes. Can you get to the Mina case before the end of the day though? I'd like to hear your opinion on that.

[Jahudo]

This is my suspicion against Mina. I think its possible that around deadline day 1 she had a better grasp on the game than she admitted, at least enough that she wouldn't have needed to catch up anymore before placing a serious vote.

If Mina really thought inHim was town, or more on the positive side of neutral, AND it can be argued that she had the information to place a good vote late day 1, then I think she looks scummy.

I think the first part is possible because of how she characterized inHim in relation to hohum so I'm trying to sort out any other possibilities there. She now mentions that it seemed like a good idea to keep the pressure on inHim but that doesn't sound right when at the same time she was criticizing hohum's case on inHim.

I am also concerned she had a better grasp on the Jahudo/inHim argument than she let on, because her opinion hasn't really changed besides adding in the details. She characterizes it now as a tunnel wagon and blowing things out of proportion, that it was a distraction. But she seemed to also have that opinion back on day 1 when she called it bickering and wanted to smack us both. That seemed to indicate she didn't think she would find anything important, but that was the main thing holding her back from changing a vote to someone she was already calling suspicious like Espy or maybe either Fluttershy or Equinox.

[Jahudo]

[quote="GLaDOS"]since even getting another bandwagon at that point will be nearly impossible given the large amount of V/LA's we've had requested in this thread./quote]
What other wagons would you rather see larger than hers right now? How many other people would make better lynches today?

I think Mina is a good lynch and I'm prepared to hammer.

[Jahudo]

Glados, I meant to ask whether this is a compromise vote for you. And if there was a specific person you would have hypothetically liked to see as a competing wagon.

Fluttershy was an alt of Ant_to_the_max.

I'll also wait for a claim.

Also I sent in my neighborizer info so that's ready to go. Though I might have to change it if her wagon breaks down and we lynch one of the people I picked.

[Jahudo]

Testing this claim won't be easy. If Mina is town, then scum likely have a way to stop her action by targeting her. Are there any roles that could have stopped her without having to target her?

I still think Mina is more likely scum than town.

If we have to pick someone else today, why not enigma lurker Pinkie Pie? My confidence on his meta is not strong and I'm not sure there's another way to read him. I guess its semi-policy lynch but its better than nothing.

As for lobster, I don't know what the case for lynching is. I thought its mostly been pressure? Some of the early fluttershy stuff seems minor to me now. What is the biggest point against that slot?

[Jahudo]

Nah, this is the choice I want so I'm pulling the trigger now.

And no one go inactive tonight because you might be one of the neighbors and if you are, you should get the pm right away. One is 1 of {hohum, Charlie, Primate} and the other is 1 of {CES, Glados, Feysal, Lobster, inHim, Pinkie Pie}

Vote: Mina

[Jahudo]

I neighborized hohum and ces. I just picked strong town reads. I'm interested to hear if ces gave any post flip reads.

Mina's attack on Espy looks genuine so Feysal looks more likely town today.

@inhim: what caused you to unvote Mina? On one hand I find it hard to imagine a scumbuddy backing off from a bus that quickly, which makes me think you are less likely to be scum with Mina. On the other hand I'm still trying to understand what you were doing.

Charlie's defense of Mina also gives me that feeling, just to a lesser extent. That's mostly because he was opposed to a Mina lynch before that, so the claim reaction would have been normal for a scumbuddy unwilling to bus. And it would be normal to a town player opposed to the wagon as well.

So since I'm less sure about my previous scumpicks, I'm going to look over LC again.

[Jahudo]

What do you mean by two anti fluttershy? I'm guessing Mina did have a Fluttershy safeclaim, and no one else has claimed to be Fluttershy.

Charlie, yes I'm neutral on you right now. You specifically look fine but I found your predecessor suspicious.

[Jahudo]

Okay anti-fluttershy. Neither seemed to get suspicion on them either, that could be a part of it.

Who else claimed neighborizer?

[Jahudo]

You said there wouldn't be two town aligned neighborizers in the game. Yeah I guess so, but we've only got one town aligned neighborizer in the game.

[Jahudo]

How did you expect the role mechanic to work? I wasn't told how it would work but I assume you just get a PM with a link to a QT saying you and "so and so" can talk there for one night as unconfirmed neighbors.

On another note I just realized inHIm is still scum.

Vote: inHim

[Jahudo]

lol no I wasn't role fishing. that's funny though

[Jahudo]

I changed my avatar after I claimed.

What did Equinox say in 490 to make you change your mind on Espy/Feysal?

About my wagon, maybe the people who wanted to lynch me day 1 were only holding off day 2 for my power? I don't know why hohum is surprised my power didn't work like he expected it to.
This wagon happened fast without much new info from what I can see, and no apparent Mina-Jahudo connections yet, but I can understand a build up of people not liking my play over the course of several days and just wanting to be rid of me after we get the benefit of lynching a scum and getting some breathing room. It is probably for the best that I am not around late in the game for that reason.
I'm still pretty sure inHim is scum and that I should be around to help the right wagons go through, but not if the way I present my ideas is distracting the rationale behind it.
So yeah, I'm okay with getting lynched.

[Jahudo]

I have a feeling Mina didn't want to weigh in on Jahudo/inHim because inHim is scum actually. Maybe you can look into that possibility if I die first.

Yes and the reason I wasn't willing to compromise was because she had more excused V/LA than the others. Her lack of content didn't look like lurking at the time and there were focus concerns with the other two.

Karma mafia was 1 year and 5 months ago. My opinion on how best to scumhunt has changed since then, although peer pressure has gotten the best of me a few times this game. These are all pretty consistent games recently:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=16122
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=16245
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=16808
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=16813

I'm lost on this second neighborizer discussion and don't see how that power can be more useful without being a masonizer. My power sounds pretty standard for 1 shot neighborizer.

I typically analyze lynch wagons what's so odd about that? Gamma being the NK for that reason is just WIFOM. Its as easy to assume he was the NK for not being under suspicion or for being an active townie or for being known as a good player who can change his mind.

[Jahudo]

Not really. We're still trying to figure out if you had a good reason to finding Mina scummy, or if you were faking it as scum who instead of reading the thread decided to bus a buddy without looking too threatening or serious.

[Jahudo]

inHim's reason for unvoting Mina (and me) sounds like a reasonable action and I don't see anything else there.

I don't think this is a gambit, since I didn't have to pair hohum with someone else. I could have used Charlie or Primate and he wouldn't seem to know for sure that my power isn't what he expected.
Any feeling out you are interpreting is me unsure whether we need to compare powers in public and see if this is a situation where both wouldn't make sense as town powers. But I don't know enough to say for sure that's a good idea. I was more eager to make today's lynch based off the best Mina connections anyway.

jahudo's 747 does in fact look like fishing to me
<snip>i've also never played a game with 2 town neighborizors.

If you think both these things then what is the problem? I would want to clear the air over any possible second neighborizer if we are under the assumption that the setup has 1 scum and 1 town neighborizer. I am a town neighborizer so in that situation whoever this second person is that hohum and others seem to have some information about, would be the scum neighborizer.

Also fishing means trying to get new information out of someone that has not provided that to the general public yet. I only asked if someone already counter-claimed me, so any and all answers would confirm common knowledge. Its like someone right now asking if I am still a neighborizer. Why does everyone have such a different interpretation on this phrase?

-------

i dont understand what exactly made jahudo vote for Inhim right as suspicion got onto him. if he was suspicious about Inhim's unvote of mina and onto me, i would have expected a town jahudo to come out of the gate and say so, jahudo certainly didnt pull any punches when going after inhim about the WLC vote/debate. this looks like a deflection attempt more so than active scumhunting.

I already talked about this a little in 767, and no it wasn't about inhim's unvote I was clear that did not look scummy but just unexplainable. My vote occurred when I thought about why Mina didn't take a side on inHim and myself. I think its because inHim is scum and she did want to make a connection to him by calling me the clearer scummy one of the two; nor would she want to take the unpopular side and vote him because it would make Gamma and others scrutinize her more when she is trying to lurk.

-------

Glados you don't need to read them. My point is Karma Mafia happened so long ago I don't see how it applies. I have played 10 games since then over a course of almost 1 and 1/2 years. I couldn't consciously play like I did in Karma if I tried to.

I see no point in explaining my inHim case another time. Whenever I do I apparently make it more incomprehensible.

[Jahudo]

What happened to this?

I want to hear from Feysal before the day ends.

Then we can go ahead with the Jahudo lynch.

[Jahudo]

hahahaha whatever scum. That was not a suspicion. I asked him the question because he said that with confidence like he'd be ready now. He also said this a while back:

There is something my little pony senses don't like, but I'm not quite sure what it is right now.

Which doesn't sound like he is as confident as he was with Mina. So what does that mean? I want to know.

[Jahudo]

Some thoughts on Mina mentioning other players:

VOTE: inHimshallibe

Not a fan of his TheLonging vote--it felt opportunistic. (Yes, I know hohum's came afterward...but as much as I should probably lie and say I found hohum's vote scummy as policy after Might of Mordor, his tone is coming off as genuinely frustrated.) I don't suppose it's too much effort to elaborate on what you mean by Jahudo being coy and TheLonging being scum, instead of speaking as though it's self-evident?

I think a Primate (TheLonging) partnership is less likely from the way she is direct about denouncing part of the wagon when its already pretty large.
inHim had no votes on previously so if he is town Mina either saw something there to try and make it a viable wagon, or she thought she could sit on the wagon there without getting much backlash. I don't see any indication of either, it mostly looks more like an attempt to look busy.
Mina looks like she's trying to downplay hohum's case without upsetting him. She seems to be saying that his frustration is the cause for why he is on the wrong wagon. If he was scum that would look like an attempt at coaching but I don't see why she would do that. It seems likelier that she wanted to take down TheLonging wagon at both inHim and hohum votes but saw it was easier/better to attach inHim.

Equinox: First, a PSA: the southern accent and pony and apple references were cute for the first two pages. We've all figured out what pony you're supposed to be. You can stop it now. It's not just that I'm a stick in the mud who hates puns. I'm finding it difficult to actually follow your thought process, because your style is distracting me. Right now, I'm not well disposed to quirky posting styles. I just witnessed a game off-site in which a killer roleplayed as Varys all game, and the affectation masked his scumtells.

No experience with Equinox-scum, but so far, she's done a few things in character with her town self (for example, vote-hopping). Also think her reaction to being cleared for her posting style is townish. My one bit of niggling paranoia is that I don't find her as obvtown as I usually do. Part of it is that she hasn't been as thorough as usual (she's usually freakishly diligent), and part of it is that I find I can't connect to some of her suspicions (the Gammagooey one in particular seems to have come out of nowhere). Equinox, do you have recent scum meta, by any chance?

If Equinox (Glados) was scum, he probably would have told his buddies during pre-game that he'd roleplay (I'm assuming scum had time during pregame that's pretty normal anyway). So unless Mina wasn't a part of that conversation, I think its probably a point in his favor that Mina looks genuinely annoyed with how long the roleplaying has gone on. I don't think it could be coaching because Equinox wasn't really getting flack for it and Mina seems to be suggesting off-hand that he could be scum if he was set on continuing to roleplay.

Mina did a thing in the second paragraph that she did to chesskid and a less extent to Gammagooey. She says they look town BUT not as town as she wants. I think she sees each of these players as unlikely wagons at this point in the game and sees no point in trying to start a fire.

Espeonage: God, his ISO is terrible. He basically has no scum reads and does nothing all game. I already mentioned that his vote for Jahudo based on not casting an RVS felt lazy (and he never answered my question about why Jahudo was worse than TL). Then after overdefending his Jahudo vote, he switched to TL:

So basically, he's only voting TL because everyone else looks town, not because TL looks suspicious? Um, why is Jahudo suddenly a town read of yours?

Seriously, I could quote every post of Espeonage's and explain why it's scummy. And he barely even has any posts. So Espy, is the catch-up post you promised coming soon? (preview-edit: okay, if Espeonage had legitimate reasons for his absence, I revoke some of my criticism.)

Initially, I'd thought it was townish how he cleared Equinox for her roleplaying. However, given that he softclaimed in his very first post, it's possible his assertion was self-serving. (Just realized this is the exact opposite of what hohum accused him of, but anyway.) Ugh. Main thing holding me back is that he'd probably look scummy regardless of alignment. I still remember Espeonage being more proactive and posting more than this in CYS, though. Of the six on this list, he's where I'd be most likely to vote.

The first three paragraphs look like she is building a serious case more than creating distance from him. He doesn't have a wagon on him so it couldn't be a bus.

The last paragraph looks like she's giving herself an "out" from owning up to her opinions by saying he'd look scummy regardless of alignment. She finishes it off by saying its still a good wagon though, so I think Espy (Feysal) is more likely town.

Fluttershy: I feel like there's some wink-wink, nudge-nudge going on with the left field bandwagon on Fluttershy that's flying above my head. I'm getting really mixed signals from Fluttershy--maybe it's just the cute avatar winning me over (how could Fluttershy be scum?). Her ISO contains a mix of reasonable comments that I can connect with (her explanation for the chesskid policy vote seems too weird to be fake, and she makes good points on WLC) and rather lazy observations. One thing in particular I didn't like:
<snip>
Fluttershy explained why she found Jahudo's lack of vote worse than TL's/chesskid's, but this still feels similar to my problem with Espeonage (as well as with Weyoun, but more on him later). "You're not being protown, because it's every townie's civic duty to vote, according to the Official Scumhunter's Guide!" It's a really easy thing to attack someone for. Furthermore, um, how does someone not using his vote make him seem opportunistic?

First paragraph looks like she's trying to avoid taking a firm stance on a Fluttershy (LobsterCatapult) wagon saying she has "mixed signals". Fluttershy only had one vote on her at this point but it looks clear that either A) Fluttershy is town and Mina is hesitant to support the wagon or B) Fluttershy is scum and Mina is thinking about bussing.
Seeing how easily she supported an Espy wagon in the same post, I have a harder time thinking Espy and Fluttershy are the same alignment. Mina looks like she's in a similar position on whether to support their wagons or not, but for whatever reason she is playing "wait and see" on Fluttershy. Why? This slot could be scum actually.

hohum: I'll be honest. I find hohum's playstyle frustrating and abrasive. The way in which he's calling inHim confirmed scum with rock-solid 100% confidence (and Gamma scum for defending him) is actually provoking a kneejerk reaction in favour of inHim. That said, I think hohum is probably town. He's drawing lots of attention to himself with his play, he's aggressive and questioning people, and he seems sincere about the whole voting bloc.

She doesn't leave much room to change her opinion here by the way she says hohum's playstyle is driving her town read on him. If hohum suddenly had a wagon on him I think she would have a hard time backing away because she already says he's hohum being hohum. That makes him look less likely to a be a scumbuddy.

I also think she was spending some time in this paragraph trying to diffuse the inHim wagon. Like TheLonging wagon, she seems to say that hohum is blinded by his playstyle because she thinks inHim is more on the town side of neutral. This could be a reason to think inHim and TheLonging are the same alignment, but one difference is TheLonging was a larger wagon than inHim at their peaks. I think she was more concerned with not being tied to an early TheLonging mislynch or wagon collapse in the first case. Those concerns don't appear here so it could just mean she wants hohum to help her with Espy or something like that.

I really just want to smack both Jahudo and inHim upside the head.

This early post is telling that she already knew what stance she was going to take on all our arguing, more or less. She has no reason to do this if we are both town; its too good of an opportunity to take a side and hope one of us is lynched early in the game. That way there would still be some people who think we picked wrong and should get the other guy, or at least there would be lingering doubt on the second player. She shouldn't try and diffuse the possibility of "1 scum, 1 town" but try and gentle feed that fire. And since I know I'm town, I think inHim is more likely scum.

CONCLUSIONS: Primate, hohum, Glados, Feysal look more townish. Lobster and inHim look more scummy.
More later.

[Jahudo]

Oh and Faraday, I'll just leave this here:

[Jahudo]

What does everyone make of Mina avoiding any read on the Maziek/Ojanen/Charlie slot?

It could be just an unintended effect from her reasoning to ISO people in alphabetical order (which I think had more to do with leaving myself and inHim for last). I don't like it because I tend to think scum want to avoid a buddy under the radar if they can get away with it, and shed more light on the buddy that is already in the open. Between Maziek's early replacement and Ojanen's own absences that is possible. I don't feel this is a clear tell one way or the other but I'm leaning towards a bad feeling.

Tier 1: Espeonage, Pinkie Pie
{Tier 2: CES, Fluttershy, inHimshallibe, Primate
Tier 3: GlaDOS, Jahudo*, Ojanen} (The division between Tier 2 and 3 was kind of a grey zone.)
Tier 4: hohum

Unfortunately, I highly doubt BOTH Espeonage and Pinkie Pie are scum, which means I'd predict two scum among my middle tiers. To be honest, I haven't paid much attention to Maziek/Ojanen, so I'm going to ISO that slot next.

By saying that either Espy or Pinkie looks like scum makes me think they are both town, especially since neither looked untouchable at any point. It looks like she is trying to lynch one and then the other by that logic. If she was bussing it wouldn't make sense to also take away a potential mislynch on a questionable player, or boost their towniness up to the point where she might have to just NK them.

I don't think the idea of 1 scum in Tier 2 and another in Tier 3 is the most likely scenario. She is consciously saying the division between the tiers is slim so its possible she put both scum in Tier 2 while keeping the door open to wagon any townies in Tiers 1 through 3 first unless she had to bus. She might have even thought to put both scum in Tier 2 just for presentation sake actually, since she goes on to suspect me more than some others above me. So I have no problem thinking both inHim and Lobster are still scum.

How's this? I just ignore you for the rest of the day and hope you get replaced, or else I go back to you as the default lynch at deadline unless someone else does something to give me a strong scum read? Trying to engage with you is like talking to a rock.

Here she's talking to Espy, its another quote that looks more like Mina is making him look worse than other people are seeing him at the time. I'm pretty sure that slot is town.

You have caught scum. You are 100% convinced, so you don't have to do anything other than post the occasional one-liner of rhetoric like "Why isn't Mina dead yet?"

But you haven't read the thread.

See, Katsuki, you were at Goofbash. This is treading on really dangerous territory, but you knew for yourself that I wasn't posting in any games. Your original vote for me was in response to one post of mine in which I pretty much said, "I'm back, posting later."

Since then, you haven't even commented on a single post of mine (other than a when I wrote a long post, and which I'd assumed was a snarky "oh no, don't tell me Mina is walling again" comment). But then when people accused you of not doing anything constructive on Day One, you cryptically commented that your vote "was not random," while never actually explaining it or seriously making to show people why I'm scummy. But now that I'm a possible mislynch, all of a sudden, you singlehandedly busted me as scum (by ESP, apparently, since you aren't reading the thread).

Be honest. Did you read the long post I wrote, to which you responded with an emoticon? Did you just retroactively invent a scum read on me to make yourself look better?

Also, hohum, you realize that it's perfectly possible for Pinkie Pie to be scum and me to be town, right?

I find it telling she is not more emotional here than other places. She doesn't directly call him scum or that his play and case have been terrible. Instead she trying to appeal to him by reminding him about goofbash. If Kats was her buddy, I would assume she'd be thinking about a buddy staying on for the bus. If anything she would try and create some more distance between them.

There's also the comment to hohum that does indicate she thinks Pinkie could be scum but it doesn't look very direct. Again it looks like an appeal to get attention away from her. I think her primary goal in this post was to reason with some townies whose decisions she cannot predict, and maybe get a wagon on Pinkie Pie without looking like she is being the primary force of it to save herself. In other words Pinkie and hohum still look town.

[Jahudo]

@Primate, has your read of inHim or Feysal's slot changed since you last mentioned them? Why am I more suspicious now? If you have a tell that hasn't been discussed yet I'd like to hear it. Or if it has I'd like to know who you mostly agree with here.

@Pinkie Pie, why is inHim town? Also who do you think is scummier: glados or LC?

@hohum what do you think of inHim now that Mina has flipped scum? Do you think their interactions make him more or less likely to be scum? I'd like to know whether you think my interpretation is interesting or not.

@Charlie can you give more thoughts on the two largest wagons? What do you think about my interpretation of Pinkie Pie and Mina interactions?

[Jahudo]

Now we have half of a Neighbor pair dead, that being CES, whose vote of Mina could actually have been interpreted as a soft counter claim, now that I think about it andit'sallcomingtogetherforme.

Why is it suspicious that half of the neighbor pair died? If you think I'm lying about the neighbor power being a 1-shot, then give a reason why I'd lie about that? Why would I lie about any part of my role?

I can understand wondering if scum thought CES was a power role but how does that tie to me?

Jahudo didn't immediately believe or disbelieve Mina's claim, just said it would be hard to test.

There wasn't anything that stood out from the claim to say it looked fake or not, so once I realized it couldn't be tested properly I decided to ignore it and just stick with my scum read.

Then I said I'd Lynch Mina before No Lynching, and CES plops down a vote, so Jahudo decides to jump in for cred ahead of my eventual hammer.

You said that, but I jumped in because I already thought you were scum so why should I trust your word? Even if I'm wrong about you, I didn't prefer a LC lynch and it looked like Charlie would have jumped on the wagon, and CES might have liked that wagon just as well. Add a Mina vote and its becomes the largest wagon.

[Jahudo]

Why is Feysal a suspect for you glados? What do you think of Mina's attempts to get Espy lynched?

there is to me, no other way to see jahudo's post except as fishing.

If you are still holding onto this viewpoint can you explain it more than just saying the general scumtell?

I clearly was asking if the information had already been given, and even if I was trying to uncover a neighborizer power how is that not called counter-claiming?

Hypothetically if you were a power role in a game and heard there might be another person with your role, how would you react? Just ignore it, I don't think so. I think its natural to be curious that there might be a counter-claim situation and what that might lead to.

[Jahudo]

I still don't see how my role did not live up to the expectations that I know from my role PM and shared yesterday before we tested it. I guess I'm not going to get that information but the people that know more about the setup better have good reasons for setup speculating this much.

My top three suspects are inHim, Lobster, Charlie in that order. Pinkie and Feysal look town despite what people are saying.

[Jahudo]

Being a one shot is not broken mechanics. This wagon is cool tho

@inHim: Not that I'm complaining but don't you still prefer my lynch? You went from not voting to a LC vote without trying to get my wagon top again first. There's still Pinkie Pie who would vote me and Primate who would switch if you stopped the LC compromise so I can't imagine you are thinking I'm a lost cause at the moment.

Oh that's right, you said I was unlikely to be a buddy with LC. I would actually make a better Pinkie Pie buddy. So you are just going to abandon your higher confidence opinions in order to what? I can almost see the bus pulling out of the station.

[Jahudo]

The secret stuff is getting so elaborate and involving that I'm just going to trust it. Two scums apparently couldn't fabricate it all and mislead any townies caught up in it from what I can gather. And it doesn't matter that he said pony instead of zebra. No LC lynch.

I still don't like a Pinkie Pie lynch.
Who has a decent theory on how Pinkie and Mina's interactions could be scum-scum?
Who has a case that goes beyond things Katsuki has been known to do as town (lurk, not explain reads)

If I felt there was some good evidence I would say now is the perfect time to lynch an anti-town lurker that also looks like scum. But he just looks like an unhelpful lurker. And if he's town we don't have as much good information as we can have if we do pick between myself and inHim today. That seems like a more prudent option today.

[Jahudo]

Now inHim has secrets. My feeling about this whole game

Can we at least talk some about why Pinkie is scumtacular?

To make a brief excursion into outguessing the mod, I remember seeing Faraday mention how he felt about town watchers. Basically, he hates them

Faraday is co-modding this game with hito. Its likely they both had a say in what roles to use.

Hey LobsterCatapult! You know how they say "a picture is worth a thousand words"? Well, instead of putting my current thought into words, I found you a picture! I hope you like it.

Is that your reaction to his read on you just now, or his posts in general lately? I guess I can see town-LC watching you because he did call Ojanen very town in his ISO. Whether or not he believed you were a likely NK target is harder to tell.

[Jahudo]

It does look like you have a complicated feeling about LC and that is exactly why I am probing you. When you first responded to his claim you didn't believe him:

Miller-Zecora fits, but... No, I don't think you're one.

But you also unvoted because hohum had some info. Now that he's fully claimed you've gone back to Pinkie Pie so does that mean you believe his claim now? If that's the case why make that post to suggest he's upset you?

[Jahudo]

unvote

(dramatic pause)

I just realized something and I need to role fish for real in order to find out. Can we confirm now that Primate is second secret neighborizer? If he is, LC has to be scum, right?

[Jahudo]

So Primate isn't neighborizer. Because if he was, LC would be confirmed scum and you would know why.

[Jahudo]

So Primate isn't neighborizer. Because if he was, LC would be confirmed scum and you would know why.

how would LC be confirmed scum if primate is the second neighborizer?

Day actions can't be watched at night.

[Jahudo]

So its day neighbors? I don't see what's so powerful about that.

[Jahudo]

Eh, to explain what I thought was going on: The mod said my power is resolved at the end of the day so theoretically no night action can watch/block/redirect/etc it. It makes sense as a general quality of the role. You want the people to talk through the night and not have to wait until the following night in order for it to happen.

So I figured it this second neighborizer is someone who gives X people a QT for X time at night, it had to follow the guidelines mine did. Apparently the differences between these two roles is even greater than that, so really there's no point in comparing the two as "both neighborizers". Mine wasn't called neighborizer specifically, the other one probably doesn't either. I say it is because its the easiest way of classifying it. Clearly these two roles were meant to both be in the "linked roles" category without having to have a standard definition.

That makes it more likely for other roles to be hybrids or mutations on what we think as normal roles. That could be a point in LC's favor.

[Jahudo]

That's a masonizer. I assumed there wasn't any alignment confirmation going on otherwise I wouldn't have poked around like I did. Masons and neighbors in the same setup make more sense than two neighbors with different rules. His role could be seen as a reverse cop and mine could be used for unbreakable alliance talk. My role wasn't about confirming my alignment and I've never cared about that. I thought it showed an inconsistency just now but it didn't.

[Jahudo]

I'm still confused about who you apparently outed as confirmed town. Its your own fault for making me think it was a second neighborizer. If you are going to use the term, know what it represents. Otherwise leave it as a second linked power.

[Jahudo]

Objection Redux oh yeah. That setup was made by Faraday after sykedoc abandoned the original game. From what I remember, and a quick scan of the game: Vezok was a neighborizer that picked one player to pair up with himself each night. I didn't get a QT with him so it looks like his was a night action and I was NK'ed so it failed.

So it looks like a hybrid of the two powers: on one hand used a night action to pair with one player, on the other hand he wouldn't get alignment confirmed.

But honestly I wasn't trying to bait hohum. He made it seem like there was no alignment business in the second role because he called it neighborizer. Neighbor is always unconfirmed. Mason is sometimes confirmed, sometimes unconfirmed. So a one-way confirmed is still a mason.

[Jahudo]

No on you. Friendly Neighbors don't get night talk. Its not a linked role. It ends at a message from the mod to the player he targets, saying this guy is confirmed. Its a variation on Innocent Child. It has nothing in common with neighborizer and people don't get the two mixed up.

Avoiding the watcher is probably and unintended side-effect for this particular setup. It's actual value is in avoiding roleblocks and redirects.

[Jahudo]

I'm beginning to think hohum is scum by virtue of making these errors in judgement (confusing the roles, outing the second role and making me look like the one who forced his hand). Now I gotta rethink my read on him.

(Pinkie is still a gamble lynch btw)

[Jahudo]

No confirmation is what makes a neighbor a neighbor. One sided confirming is what makes a friendly neighbor a friendly neighbor. I did not claim friendly neighbor so I shouldn't have been compared to one.

The friendly neighbor claim sounds legitimate, I'm not discounting it. I just can't believe hohum would look at the two powers and think they were in the same power category and had to be judged as two of a kind.

[Jahudo]

unvote; vote Jahudo

hohum and inhim are scum. charlie is longshot alternate.

[Jahudo]

That QT spy thing was a really interesting reveal, its hard to think that outside the box and guess that LC wasn't a watcher. And it fits with the overall theme of focusing on these QT making "friendship" roles so I think the power roles tied nicely together without being obvious that they'd all be around.

Kats, I'm not upset over my lynch or that I self-voted. There was a chance of a no lynch, and that it might help get an inhim lynch more validity so I did what I thought was right for that situation.

[Jahudo]

I wish I had found this picture earlier: