Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[havingfitz]

/confirm

[havingfitz]

Sooooooooooo..........................I'm guessing 10 confirmed out of 11 = "most players have confirmed" = "The game will start?"

[havingfitz]

VOTE: AdumbroDeus for questioning game balance.

[havingfitz]

OK. This is a normal game, 11 players. We're mass claiming today right now. (Popcorning of course.) I'd like nocmen to start us up. (i'd like people to take into account the fact that since the death of the cop role I can only see good things from this.)

OK boss...I claaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaim...wait. You aren't the boss.

WTH are you trying to do?

I for one have nothing worth claiming, scum aren't going to claim, and any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK. But I'm happy to listen to your rationale. Or are you just looking for reactions to your request to work with?

There's a far less chance of there being a cop in this game than there were years ago.

huh?

[havingfitz]

Out of curiosity, why do you want nocmen to start?

He's best able to false claim (if he's scum).

Do you plan on explaining anything you say? How do you come to the conclusion above?

HF: Do you understand the idea behind mass claim?

I do. Do you? Can you show me one game where everyone claimed on D1...and had success with it?

Vote: HF

Nonsense argument against the mass claim.

No nonsense. Answer my questions.

[havingfitz]

I support massclaim

because it'll help us win the game.

Assertion fallacy. Prove it…don’t just assert it, as I asked earlier to no avail:

• Can you show me one game where everyone claimed on D1...and had success with it?

1. We force scum to take the guess now rather than running them up and then letting them get away with claiming a power role later.

If you knew how massclaims worked you would realize it is better to have the scummy or more suspect players claim first. Your comment above is correct but the problem with it is that on D1 you have no way of knowing who those players are. If scum claim near the end of the massclaim they have a better chance of making a fakeclaim that is likely to not be countered.

2. We

may be

able to work out a breaking strategy or work out a role that wouldn't be in the game to allow us to lynch scum.

‘May be’ is equal to ‘maybe not.’

3.

It lacks many problems.

Town power roles are more numerous than they used to be and as such the classic argument against MC do not apply.

How many problems = many? It only needs a few problems to be a bad idea. Here are two problems for your consideration since you don’t seem to be considering everything:

1) If all the town participate truthfully, town PRs are revealed and subsequently NK’d.
2) Scum will lie. If they fakeclaim VT then that will create a lynch pool from all the VTs and not take into consideration potential PR fakeclaims from scum who might get to claim near the end.

HF: Your argument "town will false claim in order to screw over the town" (or whatever reason you're using) is complete nonsense, that'ds not up for debate.

I never made any argument to the effect of what you are attributing to me above. That is a misrep on your part.

Unvote, Vote Empking

. Also, “Or whatever reason you’re using?”…if you don’t even know why I oppose a D1 MC then how can you call it nonsense. You’re just talking out of your ass…i.e. talking nonsense.

Noc is clearly the best player. If ou don't read old games then look at his join date.

Ridiculous (no offense Nocmen) as someone else has pointed out. But since you put so much stock in his join date,

I'm not too sold with the mass claim,

and I'm still confused as to why exactly you choose me first for the claim, but I'll gladly do it if I know that people are up for it.

I understand the benefits of a mass claim, but not in D1 when there is no other information to back them up or prove someone wrong.

I'm all for massclaims later in the game (say D3...at earliest D2) but until someone shows me some successful examples of a D1 massclaim I am opposed to one in here.

---

@singersigner…shouldn’t we give DavidParker the opportunity to hang himself? I have a hard time supporting a DPPL but as I’ve played in at least one game with him, I am amused with your idea.

As for your RQS questions…shouldn't the asker answer first?

[havingfitz]

Just in case it was too buried above:

UNVOTE: VOTE: Empking

[havingfitz]

1)

Does this mean that you don't object to a mass claim later on (late D1 or otherwise)?

2)

But if you force the scummy players to claim early, like you agreed above. If scum false-claims a power role, then it can be counterclaimed. If we lynch the actual power role, and scum counterclaimed, we lynch them the next day. That's what happened my first game, and it ended pretty well. https://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewt ... 7f898e2fd3. As for the vanilla townie lynching pool, that's basically unavoidable, regardless of what day there's a mass claim. There's always uncertainty about who you're lynching, without a cop confirmation.

3)

Why would that matter...? They're simple questions. Ah well, to each their own.

1) I don't have a problem with massclaims later in the game. I just don't support one on D1. Not sure I would towards the end of D1 either but I know I wouldn't without some sort of D1 example of it working well....which Empking does not appear to possess.
2) On D1 (especially at the beginning of the game) you have no idea who is potentially scum there there is no way of increasing the odds of a successful massclaim by starting it with the leading scum suspects. Early on D1 it's a crapshoot and there is no way of insuring you don't have scum all claiming towards the end when they can make up anything they want without risking a counterclaim.
3) It doesn't matter...I thought it was odd the asker didn't start the ball rolling with answers. That said:

RQS!!!
1. What can we expect from you activity-wise?
2. What time zone are you in?
3. Are there any circumstances in which you would hammer someone you believe to be innocent?
4. What generation are you in/from?
5. I'm OCD and needed a fifth "question."

1. No way of knowing...I usually check several times a day if near a computer but only post if I have the time or something to say.
2. GMT+1
3. No...I would need some level of suspicion towards them.
4. One further back than I would like.
5. That's not a question.

@Empking...you make it sound like a D1 claim is our best way to proceed but you have no examples of it happening successfully before? Nice.

Also, hf, at my possible contradictory statements - I was referring to not being sold with the claim on D1, but stating in later days with more evidence, I will be okay with a mass claim

I am of a similar opinion.

[havingfitz]

AD: We know that MC will help. (the unrefutable logic I've given that's only been answered with "You're questions" or idiotic statements) So its only logical that I'd want a massclaim.

Emp…what is with all the baseless assertions you have made in this game? I know I have been in a few games with you before and I don’t recall you playing like crap in them. “We know that MC will help” is not true, especially on D1. The proof we do not know it as evidenced by the majority of players in the game that have stated opposition to a MC. Speaking of proof…ass I’ve requested earlier…do you have any that a D1 MC is a good thing for town? Also, you have not provided “unrefutable” logic as I (and others) have refuted your logic.

Can everyone agree that MC will:
1. Not have an impact on whether we have confirmed town in lylo.
2. Force scum into a position they'd rather not be in.
3. Give town greater information and allow them to better hunt for scum.

1. Disagree…how often are there confirmed town in LYLO? I would wager it is not very often and that a MC would make it (have confirmed townies) less likely to occur.
2. Potentially
3. Potentially

And a MC on D1 reduces the likelihood of any of the situations you mention above occurring, IMO.

(Also since we know AD and HF are the scum we can get them to claim first.)

Another baseless assertion. So anyone who disagrees with your D1 claim and votes you is scum?

Emp….since D1 MCs are such a sure fire benefit to town….have you ever recommended one before? And any previous evidence of their success would be appreciated…as I have requested numerous times already.

[havingfitz]

Adumb....you seem to making a bigger deal over experience levels than the people you are going off on. Whether your comments are valid or not...one or two one off retorts to your comment don't warrant your continued over reactions about your intent. Let it lie and it will die.

That said...it appears Emp and DP are getting most of the attention at the moment. DP because his meta, from what people seem to be inferring, of playing poorly. My question...does he 'play stupid/poorly/~adj.' all the time whether he is town or not? If so...the perception by some that he may already be following his meta in this game doesn’t really tell us anything about is alignment.

Emp on the other hand doesn't have a bunch of people reminiscing about his crap play and in fact has formed a small fan club in here with his scummy. Whoo hooo. That said...he does not have a history that I can see of poor play or of recommending D1 MCs.

So at the moment if I had to choose between consistent poor play (DP) or out of the ordinary detrimental recommendations (Emp) to be the target of my suspicions/vote, it would obviously be where it's at.

[havingfitz]

HF is my main suspect because his reaction to my MC idea didn't seem like honest reaction "town PRs will claim VT"

My reaction was honest and based on the fact it was a stupid idea....which was shared by several others in this game. And when you use quotation marks you should actually be quoting something the person you are quoting said. I never said "town PRs will claim VT" nor anything close to it. Another misrep on your part. A lie. You have been a lot less active since your intial MC bravado. Are you floundering a bit? You are acting scummy. Still happy with my vote.

And for those voting DP or not at all....voting scummy play (Emp) is always better than voting bad play (a growing sentiment towards DP).

[havingfitz]

So mod...what's up with xenophon?

One confirm post 4 days ago and that's it.

xenophon has recently beeen prodded.

[havingfitz]

Did you? (prod avoidance post)

[havingfitz]

HF; How about you do some scumhunting rather than "prod avoidance" What are your thoughts on Singer?

Hey...at least I was being honest and said it was to avoid a prod. Which is more than I can say for you with the misrepresentations you have based your vote on me for. A quick look at your recent posts doesn't show any scumhunting of note IMO.

I have not made up my mind on singer.

BTW...some people (DP) have inferred that your MC request is the reason you have garnered some suspicions. While the MC push is what made me initially suspect you that is not why I have my vote on you. It is more the way you have supported your MC suggestion with baseless assertions, how you have become defensive towards some of the majority who opposed the MC, and your misreprentations towards me. And the fact you have done very little (ie lying low) since the dust seemed to settle following your MC.

[havingfitz]

HF: Give me an example of where I misrepresented you.

Also, this isn't about "scumhunting of note" its about "prod avoidance post" and "I have not made up my mind about Singer."

Do an ISO on me and search for 'misrep'...you should get at least two hits. And please explain your second line above. I talked to those areas of interest.

[havingfitz]

Yes but those hits aren't actual examples of misrep. Since I've show that they're not if you continue sayingh it you should either findf some new evidence or rebut my points.

How have you shown them not to be misreps (aka lies if you want to keep it simple)?

HF: Your argument "town will false claim in order to screw over the town" (or whatever reason you're using) is complete nonsense, that'ds not up for debate.

I never made any argument to the effect of what you are attributing to me above. That is a

misrep

on your part.

Unvote, Vote Empking

. Also, “Or whatever reason you’re using?”…if you don’t even know why I oppose a D1 MC then how can you call it nonsense. You’re just talking out of your ass…i.e. talking nonsense.

To which you responded:

(I'm not going to respond to HF until he stops wasting our time with stuff like "scum will falseclaim".)

---

HF is my main suspect because his reaction to my MC idea didn't seem like honest reaction

"town PRs will claim VT"

My reaction was honest and based on the fact it was a stupid idea....which was shared by several others in this game. And when you use quotation marks you should actually be quoting something the person you are quoting said.

I never said "town PRs will claim VT" nor anything close to it. Another misrep on your part. A lie.

You have been a lot less active since your intial MC bravado. Are you floundering a bit? You are acting scummy. Still happy with my vote.

To which you responded:

OK. This is a normal game, 11 players. We're mass claiming today right now. (Popcorning of course.) I'd like nocmen to start us up. (i'd like people to take into account the fact that since the death of the cop role I can only see good things from this.)

OK boss...I claaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaim...wait. You aren't the boss.

WTH are you trying to do?

I for one have nothing worth claiming, scum aren't going to claim, and

any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK.

But I'm happy to listen to your rationale. Or are you just looking for reactions to your request to work with?

There's a far less chance of there being a cop in this game than there were years ago.

huh?

(bold mine)
Everyone: What dop you think of HF's premature vanilla claim?
DP: Can you vote HF then.

This ->

any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK.

---which is what I said, does not equal

"town PRs will claim VT"

or

"town will false claim in order to screw over the town"

which you have attributed to me and I assume are part of the basis for your vote on me.

Quit misrepresenting what I say. You haven't got it right in this game yet. Why are you voting me again?

Still happy with my vote where it is.

[havingfitz]

Catch up post.

Emp...you accuse me of not doing any scum hunting but I must say...your scumhunting technique leaves a little to be desired as well. You vote for me immediately after I criticize your massclaim plan. You hold that vote for several RL days. You try to deflect my attention onto someone else (singersigner) who you think is either scum or Vi and then proceed to vote Lrdwhyt. So would you agree (at least ITT) that your scum hunting has consisted of whoever is against you is scum? Except apparently Adumbro (???).

---

@Rhinox...in post 201 you weigh in on the hot topic of D1 (Emp’s MC push) by saying (and I paraphrase) that he seems town for suggesting an idea that would be scummy and thus make him town because scum would not try to come across as town by proposing a plan so scummy scum would never do it (aka WIFOM). Which of course would make it a good suggestion for scum to make. Or not. Or maybe.

I object and Emp immediately votes me for my ‘nonsense argument’ (which is essentially echoed by several other players) which is by no means nonsense.

A day later Adumbro chimes in with a similar opinion (and Emp vote) and you rate his response genuine and call him town.

I on the otherhand respond ‘independent of my alignment’...(WTH does that mean?) and then point out that I could be town against a bad idea or scum trying to earn points by being against a bad idea. So WIFOM works in favor of the person with the bad idea and against the first person to object to agreed to bad idea. WTF?

I for one have nothing worth claiming

which can be taken many ways, but seems awfully suggestive coming from someone who wants nothing to do with mass claiming.

How is my comment suggestive? I’m saying ~Even though I myself do not have anything to claim I’m against a massclaim because it will out all our PRs. I don’t know how to clarify the comment any more than that.

Then Rhinox says:

I can't really say anything about davidparker or cruelty just yet.

and proceeds in the same post to say he’s leaning scum on DP and leaning town on cruelty. Then a day later puts DP in the “scummiest of the players remaining” category. This all despite not having anything to say about him. ?

tl:dr

Rhinox summary - Emp is town for proposing a bad idea & WIFOM, I am leaning scum for opposing a bad idea & WIFOM, and AD is town for opposing a bad idea (wait...isn’t that what I was doing?).

I think you are very inconsistent in your analysis Rhinox. Is there anything you suspect me of that does not involve WIFOM? What makes my suspicions towards Emp different for you from anyone else’s suspicions of him?

[havingfitz]

Catching up a bit. If I miss something directed at me let me know and I will try to address it.

@Rhinox...we’ll just have to disagree on how we view your town read of Empking. I still see your read as - he must be town because scum would not do something that scummy (push for a MC). I call it scummy...you call it making one’s self the center of attention. I agree he made himself the center of attention (because IMO he proposed a scummy plan). Regardless...if scum know no one would suspect them of being scum for doing something so scummy....then why not do it to be deemed town? And as it stands...the bulk of my suspicions towards Empking are not the MC push itself.

Question to all.

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

Yes, I think adumbro is genuinely town. He genuinely thinks empking is scum.

Are you not of the opinion that I genuinely think Empking is scum? Because I do. I need to do a bit of reading/ISOs though as my suspect list is rather small at the moment (1).

I mean, this is basically saying, "Hey, I'm not a PR but I don't want scum to know all our PR's". Guess what would happen if everyone who's not a PR would say they're not a PR...? Thats what empking was talking about earlier with the "soft vanilla claim" thing. If you're town, its anti town because you're making it easier for scum to find the PR's, and if you're scum, its... idk really. Maybe you were hoping someone else would say "I don't have anything to claim either". But if you're going to claim vanilla on page 3 or whatever, you might as well be for a mass claim.

If I was a PR and did not support a massclaim (which I do not) would you expect me to say “I’m a PR but I’m not going to tell you which one”? Call my comment whatever you would like but whether I was VT or a PR...I would not have anything to claim. And if I was scum I would be interested in finding out what and where the PRs were and at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it.

[havingfitz]

And if I was scum I would be interested in finding out what and where the PRs were and at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it.

1. So, everyone but empking opposes mass claim. That means only empking is scum?

2. Of course not, so I hope you see how horrible a reason that is as evidence that you're town.

3. I would think you'd be looking into both fallenangel and confidanon/incognito, as both of them initially humored the idea of a mass claim. Do you think anyone in the game fits the description of "staying quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed."

(Numbers within quote input by me)
1. This situation isn't the case so why bring it up. Not everyone opposed the claim initially (not sure where everyone stands currently).

Strawman much Rhinox?

2. I'm not using my reply to confirm I'm town. I'm saying the immediate opposition was more of a town reaction IMO than some of the other reactions which you proceed to acknoledge in #3 above.

3. OK...now that you have confirmed your 1st comment doesn't apply in this game, yes...FA and CA's responses could merit a closer look. As would Lrdwhyt for his general lack of a stance (in the beginngin at least...I have not scoured the entire game for changes of opinion), singersigner's avoidance of any MC position initially (post 24) followed by a lack of any position on it in post 40. Then there is your predecessor's complete lack of comment on the matter in his initial post (61).

Regardless...if scum know no one would suspect them of being scum for doing something so scummy....then why not do it to be deemed town?

Look around... there's a number of people who find empking scummy. So obviously, empking isn't "scum who knew no one would suspect him for suggesting mass claim, so hi did it to look town."

How is your comment relavent? It's based on the current situation which Emp had no sight of when he would have had to make his MC push...unless Empscum had a crystal ball.

If I was a PR and did not support a massclaim (which I do not) would you expect me to say “I’m a PR but I’m not going to tell you which one”? Call my comment whatever you would like but whether I was VT or a PR...I would not have anything to claim.

Anyways, the point is, there is no reason for any town to say "I have nothing to claim". If the idea is to make the scum question whether or not you are a PR, you can do that by not revealing any hints about your role at all.

In other words, regardless of your role, if you're town and did not support mass claim, I would expect you to say "I don not support a mass claim" and move on. Not, "I don't have anything to claim, so I don't support a mass claim."

My point it I do not think the choice of words I used indicates whether or not I have a PR. If you think it is a VT claim that is your opinion. Coupled with the fact there has been no other claims...if scum were to infer from my comments that I was saying I was VT...that's as much WIFOM for them to consider as it would be for town to consider with Empscum MC push. So it's a wash IMO.

[havingfitz]

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

I'm wondering...what the point of this question is...

To see if anyone has seen scum suggest a massclaim at an early stage of the game. I'd be curious to see how it worked out for them.

[havingfitz]

If you take a look, people were relatively lukewarm about it, and the question of him being scum because of it didn't come up till I brought it up.

Not to tarnish your impression of yourself but you seem the have overlooked the exchange between Emp and I, along with my vote on him, before you ever weighed in on the subject. Thanks for bringing Emp's scumminess up

[havingfitz]

Wow. You hold yourself in very high esteem.

I 'tossed a vote on him' because I think he is scum. Some people play a variation of mafia where they vote for the people they think are scum. I would say first vote and several exchanges would equate to introduing the idea of Emp as scum.

With all your helpful theory lessons, kind assessments of your fellow (but obviously lesser) players, and your misguided "I introduced the idea Emp was scum first" chest thumping you definitely deserve a gold star after the game.

I wonder if there is a Gold Star Scummy?

BTW...if Emp does wind up being the lynch and flips town...you can have all credit of convincing town (all one other Emp votes ATM) you want

@ town...sorry for the slight distraction on my part. The game is dragging and I couldn't resist. Perhaps if more people were posting it would be easier to stay on track.

Vote Emp! (like AD said)

[havingfitz]

@everyone:

What do you think of EMP's "catching Lrd in a lie" and EMP's ignoring my EBWOP?

I don't think he caught Lrdwhyt in any lie and his suspicions based on that 'lie' were a reach. If someone made that challenge to me I would most likely ignore it as well.

The last two pages have been a bit dense, so let me know if I missed anything.

Question to all.

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

Nope. Have you?

-~-~-~-~-~

I didn't really get much out of the havingfitz <-> Rhinox back and forth.

To your question - No I haven't.

Regarding the Rhinox - me exchange...what are your thoughts on Rhinox's strawman of my suspicions towards Emp and his continued distortion of my position on Emp?

---

Other than Emp....I am most suspicious of singersigner atm. I need to give everyone else a look over to fill out my top 3 or 4 suspects.

[havingfitz]

If you're the best player, if you're town, who is scum? If you're scum.. Well.. Who's your scum buddies?

Who was your question directed at?

[havingfitz]

I just ISO'd Fallen Angel and I do not see the case on him. I would definitely not have him near the top of my scum list...like I'm leaning towards for those who are on his wagon at the moment.

@ Incognito...actually...I would not be voting someone based on suggesting a MC on it's own. I agree that just suggesting a massclaim is not a good tell in either direction. It's the rest of Emp's play so far (which in large part has been posts related to the MC) which I find suspicious. Which is strengthened by his self preservation vote on FA for being the "only wagon with decent reasoning behind it." The 'reasoning' for which as I said, I fail to see.

[havingfitz]

You just going to ignore that #229 exists then? I mean thats fine if you want to drop it, I was starting to get the feeling I was arguing with a townie anyways, but not if you're going to ignore it and throw around accusations that I already answered to and force me to answer again. Because I didn't strawman anybody, and I don't believe I've distorted your position on Emp either.

re: post 229. I missed it initially and when I did start to put a response together I was headed towards a wall text that was IMO going to be of limited value/interest to the game.

I believe you did Strawman me. You summarized my comments as this...

So, everyone but empking opposes mass claim. That means only empking is scum?

...which was not an accurate assessment of the town’s sentiments towards the MC and was not the conclusion I came to. If it’s not a strawman it is at least a mischaracterization of what I said.

After empkings MC proposal, you posted this:
havingfitz wrote:OK boss...I claaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaim...wait. You aren't the boss.

WTH are you trying to do?

I for one have nothing worth claiming, scum aren't going to claim, and any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK. But I'm happy to listen to your rationale. Or are you just looking for reactions to your request to work with?


Which i (accurately, IMO) read as this.
interpretation of havingfitz's reaction to the MC proposal wrote:I disagree with the MC idea and here are 3 reasons why:

1: I have nothing to claim
2: scum aren't going to claim
3: any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK.

But I'm happy to listen to your rationale, or was it just lolreactions?


This is just an odd way to object to the proposal in general. 1 and 2 don't make any sense at all as reasons to object to mass claiming. They may be true statements, but they don't explain why mass claiming is bad, or not mass claiming is good. 3 is odd because you imply that PR's will lie and not actually claim their role. The whole post just seems odd and not said in a way I'd expect town to react.

No...your read is not accurate. FA’s read was:

Like havingfitz said, nobody is likely to claim anything other than VT, as a power-role claim is practically suicide, and a scum claim is suicide.

I did not oppose a MC because of #1. Your take on #2 is wrong. #3 is correct...but you go on to say I “imply that PR's will lie and not actually claim their role”...which I never did. They might...who knows. But I didn’t say that. I said any PR stupid enough to claim would be an easy NK. The only people that I assume would lie in a MC are scum.

[quote="havingfitz wrote”]I just ISO'd Fallen Angel and I do not see the case on him. I would definitely not have him near the top of my scum list...like I'm leaning towards for those who are on his wagon at the moment.

Big surprise there

So wait, we go through the whole back and forth earlier about how you think scum would "at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it." and then you don't see anything in FA's iso that mimics that?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
Why is it a surprise? I don’t think there is any case on FA and two of my top suspects are on the FA wagon....which for me clears FA even more.

[havingfitz]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: fallen angel


Fine, EMP for tomorrow then, not letting a no lynch happen.

Only way we would have a no lynch is if we vote one or there is a tie. Might want to give the rules a glance.

[havingfitz]

Hmmm...first time I've been in a game like this where a majority of the votes cast gets lynched instead of most votes cast or vote equalling a majority of the players remaining. Not that I would have made a difference as I was not up for the FA lynch.

VOTE: Empking

[havingfitz]

Vote: Singer

No explanation. What has changed since your weak self preservation vote on FA yesterday. Why not back on him? Or your OMGUS vote on Lrdwhyte? Man you are scummy.

Also...to anyone...I see Vi referenced more often than I care to count. WTH does a Vi reference indicate?

[havingfitz]

I must say it looked like a slip to me as well. I need to look Rhinox over before I put my vote on him but before I do....

@ Rhinox...your little list of potential scum for letting the FA "mislynch" not take place (and I'm quite certin you meant to say lynch) is no differnt than saying the people on the FA wagon (to include yourself MrSlip) probably contain scum for not being on the scumEmp wagon. I think a Rhinox-Emp combo (plus perhaps singer???) has some merit.

[havingfitz]

Insomnia sucks.

@mod...the D1 final vote count was wrong. Fallen Angel had unvoted. I assume the 5 votes on FA out of ten cast is still not enough to get a lynch but wanted to bring it up just in case.

The fact that the FA lynch didn't happen and no lynch was allowed to happen makes me think it is even more likely FA/Corvuus is scum and his buddies didn't vote for him to allow a no-lynch to happen.

{havingfitz, lrdwhyt, cruelty, nocmen, DP} - there are definitely scum here for allowing the mislynch to happen, whatever corvuus' allignment is.

@ Rhinox...your little list of potential scum for letting the FA "mislynch" not take place (and I'm quite certin you meant to say lynch) is no differnt than saying the people on the FA wagon (to include yourself MrSlip) probably contain scum for not being on the scumEmp wagon. I think a Rhinox-Emp combo (plus perhaps singer???) has some merit.

FA was at L-1 at deadline. Emp had 2 votes at deadline. So how do you justify calling out people on the FA wagon for not voting empking? That doesn't make any sense, especially since you would have to equally call out everyone else not voting FA or empking. So... {corvuus, Incognito, AdumbroDeus, Rhinox, DavidParker, cruelty, singersigner, Nocmen} are all scummy for not lynching emp at deadline?

I justify it the same way you justify saying the people not on FA's wagon contain scum (which I would agree with regardless of what FA/Cor's alignment is).

The following comments are based on the assumption there are three scum.

If FA/Cor is town....I doubt scum would all be on the wagon. I have to believe some scum would try to avoid being on the mislynch. This coupled with possible confusion on whether we were in a lynch situation (I know I was) and the fact a no lynch IMO is only slightly less advantageous to scum than a mislynch would be more of a deterrent to the entire scum team sitting on the a townFA/Cor wagon. Additionally...at least two of the votes on FA D1 were primarily to avoid a no-lynch so that does not show a lot of support for the FA/Cor case to being with which would make scum have to work harder for the mislynch.

If FA/Cor is scum....I agree with your somewhat obv assessment that there would be scum among those off his wagon. Not much else to say there.

I view the no lynch as a bit of a nulltell re: what FA's alignment is.

[havingfitz]

Unvote

- I've read another game that Singer is in and I'm no longer convinced she's scum. (I think its playstyle)

Vote: Lrd

You are all over the place with your votes. Do you have a reason for voting Lrdwhyt?

Speaking of Lrdwhyt...where is he? I know he was online when I was making my earlier insomnia post.

BTW DP...thanks for the Vi explanation. I've always thought it was just people referring to the player Vi (who I have only been in one game for a brief time) and I couldn't figure out why she was so in/famous. I assume her name is in reference to the same thing but irregardless...at least I'm clear.

[havingfitz]

In this entire game...I'm not talking about the last two RL days alone.

[havingfitz]

Then I've vote four players all game. Again, hardly all over the place.

You've voted for more players (4) than anyone else in the game and IMO you have given crap reasons (if any) for all of your votes. Off the top of my head I would categorize your votes as OMGUS, OMGUS, self preservation, a VI who isn't a VI, and now back to Lrd (your 2nd OMGUS).

Prior to jumping on singer's wagon you had barely acknowledged her this entire game. This despite both, what I assume you would call, your serious votes (Lrd and I) still being in the game. That is where I get all over the place. In games you are town do you usually have valid reasons for voting people or do you always play this way?

@ AD and Cruelty...you guys have both been on the site since the game opened back up. Your participation would be appreciated (by me at least).

@ Lrd...thanks for posting. I didn't get a good feel however for who you suspect at the moment. Since we are essentially in part 2 of D1....I don't know why there would be hesitation to vote on anyone's part unless they did not have a strong opinion at the end of D1.

[havingfitz]

HF: 4 votes is not a lot. We've got a lo of inactives and tunelling players in this game, that's the only reason that even a tunelling player like yourself raises an eyebrow at four votes.

Also, I absolutely acknowledge Singer several time vore today. I said she was one of my main suspects when asked Day 1.

I think its very weird that you don't understand other players changing their reads ("Why didn't you vote HF despite finding him scummy early D1") I didn't vote Lrd because we went through it yesterday about how nobody else looked at him like I do and since he was only slightly worse than Singer I went to the most popular wagon.

HF: You call my vote on Lrd "OMGUS" do you consider lying and lurking scum tells? If so, why don't you believe I also do.
You call my vote on FA "self preservation". Several players in this game wanted a good lynch, why don't you think I share the same viewpoint.

You listed her along with me and said you thought she was either scum or a VI...leaning VI. Sorry if that sort of non-commital answer got overlooked by me. Considering that she was your only other suspect mentioned besides me....the fact to skipped her for Lrdwhyt and then put a 3rd vote on FA to save your arse when you could have also put singer (who you apparently suspected until you bothered reading up on her) at a 3rd vote does not make sense. At least it doesn’t make sense to me because I try to vote for the players I find most suspicious.

As for tunnelling...you are not the only person I suspect. With only one vote to give...you just happen to be the one I suspect the most (see how it works?) so I remain happy to vote you. If your gameplay had improved throughout D1 I would have considered moving my vote but that has not happened IMO.

As for Lrd...he has been one of the less active players in the game but there is at least one less active (cruelty) and I like to have a little more to go on than attendance. When you voted for Lrd it was your first post after he had voted you (ie OMGUS) and the only reason you gave then was that he was not being honest. When in fact he had been honest. He had never expressed support for your massclaim idea that I can find and you try to paint him as agreeing with 2 of your points....

Unvote

Vote: Lrd

- We've gone through my reasons for mass claim. Remember, you agreed to two points of my reasoning and only disagreed with the point about the [non-existant] confirmed town. You are simply not being honest at this point.

The three points you made were:

Can everyone agree that MC will:
Not have an impact on whether we have confirmed town in lylo.
Force scum into a position they'd rather not be in.
Give town greater information and allow them to better hunt for scum.

(Also since we know AD and HF are the scum we can get them to claim first.)

To which Lrd replied...

If I wasn't convinced before that you aren't seriously arguing for a mass claim, I sure am now. How, in any way, was your logic irrefutable? Your asking for a mass claim was either a joke and you're not even trying, or you really want a mass claim, and you're hoping that no one will actually read your arguments.

1. As someone else said, no. Outing the roles means power roles die, thus decreasing the chances of having confirmed town in LYLO.
2. Depends on whether they're early in the mass claim or not.
3. Yes.

The above hardly looks like he is being dishonest about his feelings towards your MC idea in conjunction with his later vote on you. Lrd has not lied that I can see despite your accusations...as I have already stated. Also...your suspicions voiced in the quote above towards AD are OMGUS as well because of his opposition to your MC. You are just making sh;t up as you go along, aren’t you? You are either lazy town or floundering scum and your lynch would be beneficial to town in either case.

tl:dr;

More votes for Emp please.

[havingfitz]

HF: It seems to me that you're saying that changing my reads on players is scummy. Is that correct? What's scummy about it?

I have no problem with people changing reads. IMO opinion your votes in this game have been opportunistic and/or for very dubious/weak reasons. Like you just want to lynch anyone and aren’t particular about it as long as it isn’t you.

1. When did I say that Lred was being dishonest about not wanting a massclaim?

Umm....I quoted it for you above. here it is again:

Unvote

Vote: Lrd - We've gone through my reasons for mass claim. Remember, you agreed to two points of my reasoning and only disagreed with the point about the [non-existant] confirmed town. You are simply not being honest at this point.

2. Are you honestly trying to say that "Yes." is not an agreement?

No I’m not saying that. Where are you getting this from? What I am saying (to quote Lrd) is that ‘No’ and ‘Depends on’ is not an agreement. This difference of opinion seems to form the basis for your initial vote on Lrd and therefore your vote on Lrd is without merit.

3. Do you know what OMGUS is? If so, are you dishonestly claiming I'm doing it in order to dishonestly get me lynched?

Yes. And I’m honestly pointing it out it in order to honestly get you lynched.

4. Other than myself who is scum?

Well...at least we’re in agreement that you are scum. My other suspects at this time are Rhinox and singer.

5. You're trying to paint it as me trying to lynch scum by voting FA is a bad thing (The lynch had to be me (I know is town), DP (a strong town read) or FA (leaning scum)).

Where did you ever say you were leaning towards FA being scum? The first time I can see you even mentioning him is when you vote him with the rationale that it is the only wagon with decent reasoning behind it. I see your vote on FA...who you never mentioned suspicons of previously (whereas you had mentioned me, AD, singer, and Lrd) as a hop on the next largest wagon to yours to save yourself. Also...I misspoke above. I said when you put a 3rd vote on FA that you could have instead put a 3rd vote on singer. This was wrong...singer did not have any votes att. However...she did subsequently get the next two votes and you could have moved your vote to her....someone you had at least expressed suspicions of but you did not.

Do you think that your play of being a stubborn tunnelling player and not voting FA is the right course of action for town to take?

Do you need to see things twice to retain them? Do you need to see things twice to retain them?

As for tunnelling...you are not the only person I suspect. With only one vote to give...you just happen to be the one I suspect the most (see how it works?) so I remain happy to vote you. If your gameplay had improved throughout D1 I would have considered moving my vote but that has not happened IMO.

FA wasn’t high enough on my list of suspicions to warrant my vote. I wish he had been lynched as the information would have been good for town and helped progress the game, it just wasn’t going to get an assist from my vote.

[havingfitz]

Another prod-avoidance post pre-Thanksgiving. If I'm overlooking any comments directed at me....pardon.

Have a nice Thanksgiving if you are somewhere that celebrates it.

[havingfitz]

Five separate wagons on the redo of D1. We really can not seem to agree on who our top scum suspects are. How about if everyone states who the top two players are that they would not hesitate to lynch today. Mayhaps we can get some agreement/collaboration going and actually string someone the majority of us suspects.

My two would be Emp (obviously) and singer.

Also, not liking Cruelty's play in this game (why don't you just replace out cruelty cause if you are town you aren't doing town in this game a bit of good) and AD seems to have used up his post allotment on D1.

[havingfitz]

HF: Why is cruelty worst that Lrd?

I assume you mean 'worse than Lrd' and I assume you mean in regards to his activity level since that was what I was calling cruelty out for. If my assumptions are correct...cruelty is worse than Lrd because he has posted less than Lrd.

Lrd's activity level sucks too but do I really need to rank people's activity levels for you? Or can I just point out the worst? Which was my intent.

[havingfitz]

Cruelty and Lrd.

Strictly for lack of activity?

Earlier this day you were voting Rhinox and expressed your content with a Corv. And yesterday you had singer listed as probably-scum. That's at least 5 people you are up for lynching iirc. What is your take on singer now and if it isn't scum, what changed your mind?

[havingfitz]

65- "…ass I’ve requested earlier…" tee-hee. But seriously, I kinda wish HF would have expanded a bit on his replies to emp's 2nd and 3rd ?s Anyhow, his request for an example of a good D1 MC is completely valid. I'd like to see it, myself.

Yeah...for some reason I have a tendency to type double ‘s’s for certain words when I only only want one ‘s’. Typing ‘as’ is always a bit of a risk for me.

Not sure you were looking for me to still expand but since the thread is dead I will all the same.

My answers were in the context of a D1 MC. In some circumstances I would be more likely to agree with Emp’s 2nd and 3rd assertions, just not on D1...especially early in D1.

2 - With town not yet having a chance to get a general feel for who scum is (as we still do not seem to have) we can’t even line up the claim or start it with an agreed to leading candidate. And even if everyone other than scum is truthful...IMO I still see the bulk of the advantage here going to scum.
3 - I agree it gives town information...but any information town receives must be viewed with a shred of doubt. Doubt that the claims received could potentially be fakeclaims. Scum on the otherhand gets more information as well and are IMO in a stronger position to trust those claims and manipulate them as they see fit.

Top two suspects so far for everyone:

havingfitz- Emp and singer
DavidParker- Cruelty and Lrd
Nocmen- singer and Corv
Empking- Lrd and Corv
Corv- ?
Rhinox- ?
neko- ?
AdumbroDeus- ?
cruelty- ?
singersigner- ?
Lrdwhyt- ?

[havingfitz]

hey, didn't realise this was open again. catching up.

Can we please get a cruelty replacement.

His player slot is a black hole in this game.

[havingfitz]

To update HF's list:
havingfitz- Emp and singer
DavidParker- Cruelty and Lrd
Nocmen- singer and Corv
Empking- Lrd and Corv
Corv- Emp and Rhinox
Rhinox- ?
neko- DP and singer
AdumbroDeus- ?
Antihero- ?
singersigner- ?
Lrdwhyt- Emp and ?

WTH have Rhinox and singersigner...and AD gone? You don't have a #2 suspect Lrd?

[havingfitz]

Well I was just about to recommend that singer post her thoughts as despite her opinion...her death was emminent IMO since she was at L-1 and at least one of the people off her wagon (moi) had her in their top two. DP's recent unvote however takes her one step further from death at the moment.

Deadline in 3 days...are we really going to get a non-singer lynch or are we looking at another no-lynch?

[havingfitz]

I need to catch up. Too many games. One just completed and another is about to go to night. Lot's of vote swaps going on in here. It's crazy...obviously no clear cut candidates.

[havingfitz]

I'm still catching up and don't want to be the lone vote on an unsupported wagon when we already have one no lynch.

Singer is my #2 (though to be honest I don't even remember why at this point) so I'll move my vote to her while reserving the right to move it after I catch up...if I do before deadline.

VOTE: singersigner

[havingfitz]

I could get on board a Lrd lynch as well I think. Not for the 'lies' Emp accused him of as I did not see any lies. He (Lrd) is posting just enough to stay in the game without saying anything.

Why no vote today Lrd? I'm up for an Emp lynch but my former vote + your vote from D1.1 and corvuus' willingness to vote Emp does not a lynch make.

So shit or get off the pot (aka vote/do something or replace out).

[havingfitz]

@singer...I had/have a case on Emp which is not based entirely on his massclaim push and I still suspect him. The fact no one else appears to caused my move to my number two (you) and in all honestly...I've been too bogged down in RL and other games to go remind myself why you were my 2nd suspect. The Lrdwhyte post is more based on frustration at his play.

I would much rather the mod just replace him but if Lrd continues to post just enough to not get replaced...I think he definitely needs to go.

Call that a policy lynch if you like but he needs to go IMO.

@corvuus...if you are town (as I have thought most of the game...at least when I was more caught up) than any thoughts you have on others would be of value.

If you aren't going to post anymore thoughts on players...why not self hammer? If you are town and there are any scum not on your wagon...they have no incentive to vote/hammer you since you appear doomed regardless of a hammer vote. In this game set-up your self hammer would allow town to focus on fewer suspects from your wagon if you flip town.

Preview edit...Ohhhhhhhhhh-kaaaay, I see DP is voting singer now. That takes away the hammer option on corvuus and puts us closer to a singer lynch or a no lynch depending on what singer and corvuus do with their votes (since it's focking obv Lrd is not going to be of any use!!!). Maybe the lynch is not set in stone. Whatever the case...I do not want another no lynch...I think that would really take the wind out of the game and we need some lynch wagons to help figure sh;t out.

[havingfitz]

Actually,

HF: Want to jump to Lrd?Better day 2 than day 3.

Seeing as we are still on D1...what's your point? And since my main gripe on him is lurking I would rather just see him replaced.

BTW mod...Lrd is due another prod.

<replace replace replace him>

[havingfitz]

So right now we are in a no lynch situation. A corv vote on singer eliminates her, or a singer vote on corv eliminates him. Both occurances still results in a no lynch. Lrd the missing wildcard...or there could still be a tactical unvote.

[havingfitz]

I suspect Nocmen as well but I'm not going to put him at L-1 just a few hours into D3. Would at least like to hear thoughts from our two new players. Maybe have D3 last a bit to refine reads for today as well as tomorrow+.

I'm v/LA until this weekend

(when I am also typically v/LA) due to holiday/work commitments.

[havingfitz]

I guess I should have hammered myself when I had the chance.

I'm still open for a EMP/Rhinox lynch... and while part of me still thinks DP is crazy town.... he probably should be lynched just to be safe.

Don't like either of the comments above. Based on the two large competing wagons at the end of yesterday I'll give the alternative wagon to yesterday's mislynch a chance. "Just to be safe" -Corv????" Terrible.

VOTE: Corvuus

[havingfitz]

UNVOTE:
Not liking what I remember seeing from Corv end of yesterday and today but L-1 seems a bit quick. And with two others I strongly suspect atm on the wagon with me I feel a bit dirty. Time to think a bit and see what happens next.

[havingfitz]

Not sure I'm liking any of the wagons. Of the three....I'd probably support a Nocmen wagon the most with DP and Corv a close second....with Corv slighty ahead of DP due to reasons I gave with my recent vote on him. I would still prefer an Emp lynch to any of the current wagons. The way Emp hopped onto Corv right after my vote was just too flippant and coupled with my D1 suspicions I'd still like to see him go. Since I don't like having my vote out of play I'll park it there and see if that wagon has wheels.

VOTE: Empking

PS...what happened to our new guys. Mr Wright made a decent post last Friday but none since and

Grump is due for a prod

already...after his lone post from last Thursday

[havingfitz]

HF: What changed with Corv and Noc?
How was my change of vote flippant? I said I wanted to see Corv or Noc lynched. I took the blunt course of action to try and see that happen. We're on D3 without a single decent lynch and flipping around like a fish doesn't seem to solve that problem.

In that you just put it out there with no reasoning. I realize you have been focused on corv/FA for most of the game but if you are really suspicious of both of them what was wrong with the 3 person wagon you were currently sitting on (Noc)? In post 504 you invite me to start a wagon on Lrd (who you were voting earlier for 'lying' [which I did not see] but then backed off because of..."if nobody else sees it then its probably not there with regards to Lrd.". Now you are willing to start a Lrd wagon for what reason?

In post 524 you vote Noc because is "pretty clear he is scum with Cor" yet you provide no reason for why it's pretty clear and I can not find any suspicions prior to your vote on Noc. All this combined with your no comment vote on Corv in Post 538 is IMO flippant.

And while we may be on D3 the first day was a wash without a lynch and NK so it's more like D2 and we only have the one mislynch against us.

I still like an Emp lynch for my earlier reasons as well as the points I mention above. Looking at the voting patterns and how the people I suspect and don't suspect are voting, I'm of the opinion there are scum among Emp, Noc and DP and I could go for any of their lynches.

Emp’s hesitation in hammering singer gave me a bit of pause (ie a town feel) but with the way we do votes in this game he (Emp) was under no pressure to put a vote down anyway. Someone was going to go and with singer being town (and possibly Corv as well) there was no pressure to move his vote.

It does make it difficult to continue this game with ~25% of the players awol. Grump and Mr Wright, why replace in? I hope you haven't both fallen and are unable to get up.

I'll try this strictly on the aforementioned voting pattern suspicions (and the fact Emp has not garnered much support other than from two dead players, myself, and Corv) VOTE: David Parker

[havingfitz]

Mr Wright and Grump have been prodded.

What's the verdict mod?

[havingfitz]

Day 3, Votecount 6

Corvuus (4) - Nocmen, Mr Wright, Empking, DavidParker (L-1)
DavidParker (3) - neko2086, Corvuus, havingfitz (L-2)
Nocmen (1) - Rhinox

Not Voting (1) - Grump

Mod....don't we have a few new players?

/rhetorical question

Excellent point. Edited accordingly.

[havingfitz]

back. just to let you know im still doing my reads. Just spent 4 hrs doing a 2 hr strain journey and am exhausted. If you dont know, england's suffering some pretty bad weather conditions right now.

Whereabouts in the UK are you?

[havingfitz]

Haylen...considering you aren't done doing your reads on all of the players/game do you think it is a good idea to maintain your vote on an L-1 wagon?

I would hope no one hammers Corv until the two new players get a chance to finish their reads and indicate who they (not their predecessors) thinks is the best lynch for the day.

[havingfitz]

Holiday season doldrums avoidance attempt

@ mod...Rhinox is due a prod I believe.

@Haylen...I feel your weather pains. I'm 75-80 miles from both Southampton and Coventry. /stalking
Also Haylen...look forward to the completion of your reads...especially since we seem to be on a slow cruise control in this game until you and Fenhl catch up.

Still a ways to go today but it appears we have two frontrunners for today's lynch...DP and Corv (3 apiece). For those of you not on one of the leading wagons (ie Fenhl, Haylen and Rhinox) do you support either of the leading wagons?

I assume Haylen will opt for Corv unless DP's read comes off worse to her. I assume Rhinox would lean towards Corv based on his sentiments the majority of the game. @Fenhl...while I support an Emp lynch as well...it does not seem to be getting any other support in this game so even if I moved back to Emp it would only muddy things up and increase the chances Corv is the lynch today. If you are somewhat suspicious of either DP or Corv it might be in the best interests of the game to move to whichever of the two you suspect most.

@DP...on Saturday you proclaimed you were back and would have content soon. Was p582 your ~content or are we still waiting for it?

BTW...H

a

p

p

y

H

o

l

i

d

a

y

s to all (town and

scum

alike)!

[havingfitz]

H

a

p

p

y

H

o

l

i

d

a

y

s to all (town and

scum

alike)!

v/LA until Sunday

[havingfitz]

@Empking:

Sorry, but I currently have a stronger scumread on DavidParker. I'll post the full case when I have more time.

Isn't your vote still on Empking (and the only one on him)? If it's on DP please disregard.

Rhinox...what are you doing? Is your vote still on Nocmen and do you expect that wagon to produce results before the deadline? Or are you happy staying off the impending corv or DP lynches?

[havingfitz]

Mod...I think we are due some prods again (at least on Rhinox).

[havingfitz]

OK...it doesn't look like the lynch is going to be DP. I liked a DP lynch more than a Corv lynch but I prefer an Emp lynch to both DP AND Corv. As DP isn't going to happen (since neko has unvoted and appears to have backed off a bit from his DP suspicions and I believe Rhinox favors a Corv lynch....assuming he ever makes another appearance) I'm not going to leave my vote on DP (in part due to his recent content posts). So...

VOTE: Emp (it's not too late)

[havingfitz]

@Emp...a lynch on you this close to deadline would not be a quicklynch considering all those on your wagon have been expressing suspicions towards you previously and with reason (iirc).

[havingfitz]

Can the non-voters please do something. Hey Rhinox...it's not the weekend. neko...can we get your vote back? Pick Emp or Corv people. Remember its the majority of votes cast. Not the majority of players in the game.

Can we get a vote update mod?

[havingfitz]

Well suck.

This game was painful to be in annnd to watch. Good going scum. That daychat thing is a pretty powerful tool.