Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[Empking]

OK. This is a normal game, 11 players. We're mass claiming today right now. (Popcorning of course.) I'd like nocmen to start us up. (i'd like people to take into account the fact that since the death of the cop role I can only see good things from this.)

Out of curiosity, why do you want nocmen to start?

He's best able to false claim (if he's scum).

HF: Do you understand the idea behind mass claim?

Lrd: It'd be better if we could all claim at once but we can't.

Vote: HF

Nonsense argument against the mass claim.

[Nocmen]

I'm not too sold with the mass claim, and I'm still confused as to why exactly you choose me first for the claim, but I'll gladly do it if I know that people are up for it.

[Lrdwhyt]

OK. This is a normal game, 11 players. We're mass claiming today right now. (Popcorning of course.) I'd like nocmen to start us up. (i'd like people to take into account the fact that since the death of the cop role I can only see good things from this.)

Out of curiosity, why do you want nocmen to start?

He's best able to false claim (if he's scum).

HF: Do you understand the idea behind mass claim?

Lrd: It'd be better if we could all claim at once but we can't.

Vote: HF

Nonsense argument against the mass claim.

Could at least provide an argument for the mass claim? I'd be interested in hearing why you think it would help.

[fallen angel]

OK. This is a normal game, 11 players. We're mass claiming today right now. (Popcorning of course.) I'd like nocmen to start us up. (i'd like people to take into account the fact that since the death of the cop role I can only see good things from this.)

OK boss...I claaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaim...wait. You aren't the boss.

WTH are you trying to do?

I for one have nothing worth claiming, scum aren't going to claim, and any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK. But I'm happy to listen to your rationale.

Or are you just looking for reactions to your request to work with?

I'm pretty sure that if he tells you it's purely for reactions, it doesn't get the desired effect.

As for the mass claim, I see no harm in it, although I'd be interested as to what good you think could come of it, Empking. Like havingfitz said, nobody is likely to claim anything other than VT, as a power-role claim is practically suicide, and a scum claim

is

suicide.

If we do mass claim, I would prefer to wait until everyone has confirmed.

Also,

Unvote: LrdWhyt

. We seem to be leaving the RVS fairly quickly, in my humble opinion.

[havingfitz]

Out of curiosity, why do you want nocmen to start?

He's best able to false claim (if he's scum).

Do you plan on explaining anything you say? How do you come to the conclusion above?

HF: Do you understand the idea behind mass claim?

I do. Do you? Can you show me one game where everyone claimed on D1...and had success with it?

Vote: HF

Nonsense argument against the mass claim.

No nonsense. Answer my questions.

[Empking]

OK. This is a normal game, 11 players. We're mass claiming today right now. (Popcorning of course.) I'd like nocmen to start us up. (i'd like people to take into account the fact that since the death of the cop role I can only see good things from this.)

OK boss...I claaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaim...wait. You aren't the boss.

WTH are you trying to do?

I for one have nothing worth claiming, scum aren't going to claim, and any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK. But I'm happy to listen to your rationale.

Or are you just looking for reactions to your request to work with?

I'm pretty sure that if he tells you it's purely for reactions, it doesn't get the desired effect.

As for the mass claim, I see no harm in it, although I'd be interested as to what good you think could come of it, Empking. Like havingfitz said, nobody is likely to claim anything other than VT, as a power-role claim is practically suicide, and a scum claim

is

suicide.

If we do mass claim, I would prefer to wait until everyone has confirmed.

Also,

Unvote: LrdWhyt

. We seem to be leaving the RVS fairly quickly, in my humble opinion.

No, everybody in town has to claim truthfully and we can then use the claims to work out who the falseclaim scum are.

I support massclaim because it'll help us win the game.
1. We force scum to take the guess now rather than running them up and then letting them get away with claiming a power role later.
2. We may be able to work out a breaking strategy or work out a role that wouldn't be in the game to allow us to lynch scum.
3. It lacks many problems. Town power roles are more numerous than they used to be and as such the classic argument against MC do not apply.

HF: Your argument "town will false claim in order to screw over the town" (or whatever reason you're using) is complete nonsense, that'ds not up for debate.

Noc is clearly the best player. If ou don't read old games then look at his join date.

[Lrdwhyt]

No, everybody in town has to claim truthfully and we can then use the claims to work out who the falseclaim scum are.

I disagree. Claiming might help in one way, but it most certainly doesn't help in figuring out who the scum are. It just narrows down the lynching pool if done correctly.

I support massclaim because it'll help us win the game.
1. We force scum to take the guess now rather than running them up and then letting them get away with claiming a power role later.

That is true.

2. We may be able to work out a breaking strategy or work out a role that wouldn't be in the game to allow us to lynch scum.

How exactly would you do that?

3. It lacks many problems. Town power roles are more numerous than they used to be and as such the classic argument against MC do not apply.

In general, maybe, I don't know for sure, but you don't know for sure. This could be an all vanilla, one cop setup, for all you know. If this is your reason for wanting to mass claim, then it's a bit of a risk.

HF: Your argument "town will false claim in order to screw over the town" (or whatever reason you're using) is complete nonsense, that'ds not up for debate.

Noc is clearly the best player. If ou don't read old games then look at his join date.

I hope you're not serious. Join date has nothing to do with skill. And I'm not just saying that because I joined 5 days ago.

[Nocmen]

I don't think I'm a good player at all. I think a lot of my early wins were a lot of lucky night actions, and in other ones I just plainly sucked.
Also

Unvote

because we are through with RVS as mentioned.

[Empking]

Narrowing the lynching pool helps us working out the scum.
2. I presume we are in a balanced game. If two roles come together to make the game imbalanced then we can presume one of them is scum (a cop and a mason pair for instance)
3. Its not my reason for a claim. 1 and 2 are my reasons ffor wanting a claiming. That's merely to preemptively attacks arguments against mass claim.


You don't think experience is related to skill? At least the skill to know what is a reasonable mini normal set up?

[Nocmen]

I understand the benefits of a mass claim, but not in D1 when there is no other information to back them up or prove someone wrong.
And one of the reasons I'm playing this game is that I haven't touched mafia for a good 18 months or so, so I feel like a lot of the setups and balance I need a bit of a refresher with. I may be able to see how balanced a setup is later, but I can't guarantee anything

[Empking]

In that case I'd suggest CA claim first.

There are advantages to mass claim and in all honestly I see very little disadvantages.

[Lrdwhyt]

You said falseclaim scum.

3. Those are good reasons for claiming, I guess, but they don't cover the trade-offs of claiming; outing all the roles helps the mafia in picking kills. If the mafia don't claim any important roles, our important roles get picked off. I haven't played any games on Mafiascum, but I think that's too much of an assumption to make.

That's not a skill...

There are advantages to mass claim and in all honestly I see very little disadvantages.

There are always advantages to any strategy.

[Empking]

Yes but there are normally disadvantages which there aren't in this case.

Lrd; Very rarely to powerroles last to LyLo I'm of the opinion that if we don't claim then scum will already pick off our power roles. Its just this way we can try and stop them 9if we have any power roles).

[Lrdwhyt]

What are you talking about...if there were no disadvantages to mass claiming, people would mass claim every game. The disadvantage is that the mafia gets to know everyone's role. You don't know that there are no disadvantages in this game; initiating a mass claim off an unsubstantiated assumption is stupid.

They're just as likely as anyone else to last to LYLO if they're not blatantly obvious about it. Unless the mafia has a rolescanner or something. Which, I guess, is possible.

[Empking]

What are you talking about...if there were no disadvantages to mass claiming, people would mass claim every game.

No they wouldn't. (They should but that doesn't translate into what actually happens.)

The disadvantage is that the mafia gets to know everyone's role. You don't know that there are no disadvantages in this game; initiating a mass claim off an unsubstantiated assumption is stupid.

The odds are very good that we won't be put into a worse position. That's just not the site meta any more.

They're just as likely as anyone else to last to LYLO if they're not blatantly obvious about it.

But they will be blatantly obvious about it. We won't get powerroles at then regardless of whether we claim or not.

[singersigner]

Hey guys, this game started quick. I thought I'd get through my

V/LA today, tomorrow, and Sunday

before it started, but in any case...

I'm pretty up in the air on a mass claim. I don't see how it could help us on D1, and I guarantee DP is gunna claim something stupid, and it will be wrong. Point blank. We can't trust anything he says. In the last three games I've seen him play in, he's claimed a PR as a VT. I don't think I'll move my RVS vote, because I want to see what he says

this time

.

Also, Lrdwhyt and everyone...I don't see the advantage of everyone claiming VT. Doesn't really get us anywhere, now does it?

RQS!!!
1. What can we expect from you activity-wise?
2. What time zone are you in?
3. Are there any circumstances in which you would hammer someone you believe to be innocent?
4. What generation are you in/from?
5. I'm OCD and needed a fifth "question."

[ConfidAnon]

I'm fine with kicking off a mass claim if a majority wants it.

However, I see the arguments both pro- and anti-MC. I'm not that great at figuring out setup-based strategies. :-/

1. I try for at least one post daily .
2. CST.
3.

Maybe

at deadline on a controversial player. But that's very situational.
4. Uh . . . I was born in 1993. Does that help?
5. CDO, not OCD. It needs to be in alphabetical order.

[Fishythefish]

Votecount 1

Not voting (8) – ConfidAnon, AdumbroDeus, xenophon, DavidParker, cruelty, Lrdwhyt, fallen angel, Nocmen
AdumbroDeus (1) – havingfitz
DavidParker (1) –singersigner
havingfitz (1) - Empking

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

singer's V/LA is noted

[havingfitz]

I support massclaim

because it'll help us win the game.

Assertion fallacy. Prove it…don’t just assert it, as I asked earlier to no avail:

• Can you show me one game where everyone claimed on D1...and had success with it?

1. We force scum to take the guess now rather than running them up and then letting them get away with claiming a power role later.

If you knew how massclaims worked you would realize it is better to have the scummy or more suspect players claim first. Your comment above is correct but the problem with it is that on D1 you have no way of knowing who those players are. If scum claim near the end of the massclaim they have a better chance of making a fakeclaim that is likely to not be countered.

2. We

may be

able to work out a breaking strategy or work out a role that wouldn't be in the game to allow us to lynch scum.

‘May be’ is equal to ‘maybe not.’

3.

It lacks many problems.

Town power roles are more numerous than they used to be and as such the classic argument against MC do not apply.

How many problems = many? It only needs a few problems to be a bad idea. Here are two problems for your consideration since you don’t seem to be considering everything:

1) If all the town participate truthfully, town PRs are revealed and subsequently NK’d.
2) Scum will lie. If they fakeclaim VT then that will create a lynch pool from all the VTs and not take into consideration potential PR fakeclaims from scum who might get to claim near the end.

HF: Your argument "town will false claim in order to screw over the town" (or whatever reason you're using) is complete nonsense, that'ds not up for debate.

I never made any argument to the effect of what you are attributing to me above. That is a misrep on your part.

Unvote, Vote Empking

. Also, “Or whatever reason you’re using?”…if you don’t even know why I oppose a D1 MC then how can you call it nonsense. You’re just talking out of your ass…i.e. talking nonsense.

Noc is clearly the best player. If ou don't read old games then look at his join date.

Ridiculous (no offense Nocmen) as someone else has pointed out. But since you put so much stock in his join date,

I'm not too sold with the mass claim,

and I'm still confused as to why exactly you choose me first for the claim, but I'll gladly do it if I know that people are up for it.

I understand the benefits of a mass claim, but not in D1 when there is no other information to back them up or prove someone wrong.

I'm all for massclaims later in the game (say D3...at earliest D2) but until someone shows me some successful examples of a D1 massclaim I am opposed to one in here.

---

@singersigner…shouldn’t we give DavidParker the opportunity to hang himself? I have a hard time supporting a DPPL but as I’ve played in at least one game with him, I am amused with your idea.

As for your RQS questions…shouldn't the asker answer first?

[havingfitz]

Just in case it was too buried above:

UNVOTE: VOTE: Empking

[fallen angel]

My comments are just inside of the quote, but they're in

red

.

I support massclaim

because it'll help us win the game.

Assertion fallacy. Prove it…don’t just assert it, as I asked earlier to no avail:

• Can you show me one game where everyone claimed on D1...and had success with it?

I agree with this, empking. You can't just say, "It works because it'll help us win the game." That's not proof, and it's pretty subjective to boot.

1. We force scum to take the guess now rather than running them up and then letting them get away with claiming a power role later.

If you knew how massclaims worked you would realize it is better to have the scummy or more suspect players claim first. Your comment above is correct but the problem with it is that on D1 you have no way of knowing who those players are. If scum claim near the end of the massclaim they have a better chance of making a fakeclaim that is likely to not be countered.

Does this mean that you don't object to a mass claim later on (late D1 or otherwise)?

2. We

may be

able to work out a breaking strategy or work out a role that wouldn't be in the game to allow us to lynch scum.

‘May be’ is equal to ‘maybe not.’

3.

It lacks many problems.

Town power roles are more numerous than they used to be and as such the classic argument against MC do not apply.

How many problems = many? It only needs a few problems to be a bad idea. Here are two problems for your consideration since you don’t seem to be considering everything:

1) If all the town participate truthfully, town PRs are revealed and subsequently NK’d.
2) Scum will lie. If they fakeclaim VT then that will create a lynch pool from all the VTs and not take into consideration potential PR fakeclaims from scum who might get to claim near the end.

But if you force the scummy players to claim early, like you agreed above. If scum false-claims a power role, then it can be counterclaimed. If we lynch the actual power role, and scum counterclaimed, we lynch them the next day. That's what happened my first game, and it ended pretty well. https://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewt ... 7f898e2fd3. As for the vanilla townie lynching pool, that's basically unavoidable, regardless of what day there's a mass claim. There's always uncertainty about who you're lynching, without a cop confirmation.

HF: Your argument "town will false claim in order to screw over the town" (or whatever reason you're using) is complete nonsense, that'ds not up for debate.

I never made any argument to the effect of what you are attributing to me above. That is a misrep on your part.

Unvote, Vote Empking

. Also, “Or whatever reason you’re using?”…if you don’t even know why I oppose a D1 MC then how can you call it nonsense. You’re just talking out of your ass…i.e. talking nonsense.

Noc is clearly the best player. If ou don't read old games then look at his join date.

Ridiculous (no offense Nocmen) as someone else has pointed out. But since you put so much stock in his join date,

I'm not too sold with the mass claim,

and I'm still confused as to why exactly you choose me first for the claim, but I'll gladly do it if I know that people are up for it.

I understand the benefits of a mass claim, but not in D1 when there is no other information to back them up or prove someone wrong.

I'm all for massclaims later in the game (say D3...at earliest D2) but until someone shows me some successful examples of a D1 massclaim I am opposed to one in here.

---

@singersigner…shouldn’t we give DavidParker the opportunity to hang himself? I have a hard time supporting a DPPL but as I’ve played in at least one game with him, I am amused with your idea.

As for your RQS questions…shouldn't the asker answer first?

Why would that matter...? They're simple questions. Ah well, to each their own.

Singersinger- Not that it matters if you're V/LA, but...
1. What can we expect from you activity-wise? Hopefully one post a day. I like to be active.
2. What time zone are you in? That's a very good question... It's noon here, if that helps...
3. Are there any circumstances in which you would hammer someone you believe to be innocent? Probably not, but it depends on the circumstances, I suppose.
4. What generation are you in/from? *Sigh* Unfortunately, the one that cares more about Jersey Shore than reading.
5. I'm OCD and needed a fifth "question".

[fallen angel]

Edit: ***At least one post per day.

[Empking]

Unless you're going to claim that MC at the beggining of D1 is impossible then the fact that it hasn't been done before doesn't prove a thing (either for or against).

(I'm not going to respond to HF until he stops wasting our time with stuff like "scum will falseclaim".)

[Nocmen]

1. What can we expect from you activity-wise?
2. What time zone are you in?
3. Are there any circumstances in which you would hammer someone you believe to be innocent?
4. What generation are you in/from?
5. I'm OCD and needed a fifth "question."

1. I check this pretty much 3-4 times daily, and post when there's something worth commenting on. Its when I wake up, when I get home from class/work, and about an hour or two before I go to sleep. So it's spread out over the day.
2. Eastern US
3. If I think they are innocent, I would rarely if ever vote for them. If someone has evidence to go on to suggest their guilt, then I would vote for them if I trust it. But at that point, I guess I don't think they are innocent anymore.
4. What do you mean by generation? If you mean real life, I'm just another college kid. If you mean ms generations....I have no clue if they even exist.
5. K.

Also, hf, at my possible contradictory statements - I was referring to not being sold with the claim on D1, but stating in later days with more evidence, I will be okay with a mass claim

[havingfitz]

1)

Does this mean that you don't object to a mass claim later on (late D1 or otherwise)?

2)

But if you force the scummy players to claim early, like you agreed above. If scum false-claims a power role, then it can be counterclaimed. If we lynch the actual power role, and scum counterclaimed, we lynch them the next day. That's what happened my first game, and it ended pretty well. https://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewt ... 7f898e2fd3. As for the vanilla townie lynching pool, that's basically unavoidable, regardless of what day there's a mass claim. There's always uncertainty about who you're lynching, without a cop confirmation.

3)

Why would that matter...? They're simple questions. Ah well, to each their own.

1) I don't have a problem with massclaims later in the game. I just don't support one on D1. Not sure I would towards the end of D1 either but I know I wouldn't without some sort of D1 example of it working well....which Empking does not appear to possess.
2) On D1 (especially at the beginning of the game) you have no idea who is potentially scum there there is no way of increasing the odds of a successful massclaim by starting it with the leading scum suspects. Early on D1 it's a crapshoot and there is no way of insuring you don't have scum all claiming towards the end when they can make up anything they want without risking a counterclaim.
3) It doesn't matter...I thought it was odd the asker didn't start the ball rolling with answers. That said:

RQS!!!
1. What can we expect from you activity-wise?
2. What time zone are you in?
3. Are there any circumstances in which you would hammer someone you believe to be innocent?
4. What generation are you in/from?
5. I'm OCD and needed a fifth "question."

1. No way of knowing...I usually check several times a day if near a computer but only post if I have the time or something to say.
2. GMT+1
3. No...I would need some level of suspicion towards them.
4. One further back than I would like.
5. That's not a question.

@Empking...you make it sound like a D1 claim is our best way to proceed but you have no examples of it happening successfully before? Nice.

Also, hf, at my possible contradictory statements - I was referring to not being sold with the claim on D1, but stating in later days with more evidence, I will be okay with a mass claim

I am of a similar opinion.