Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[Fenhl]

Why emp and not someone else, like DP?

As I said earlier, the massclaim thing and the votehopping add to the case. I will still look at DP's ISO after the backwards read.

[Empking]

Why emp and not someone else, like DP?

As I said earlier, the massclaim thing and the votehopping add to the case. I will still look at DP's ISO after the backwards read.

What votehopping?

[havingfitz]

Holiday season doldrums avoidance attempt

@ mod...Rhinox is due a prod I believe.

@Haylen...I feel your weather pains. I'm 75-80 miles from both Southampton and Coventry. /stalking
Also Haylen...look forward to the completion of your reads...especially since we seem to be on a slow cruise control in this game until you and Fenhl catch up.

Still a ways to go today but it appears we have two frontrunners for today's lynch...DP and Corv (3 apiece). For those of you not on one of the leading wagons (ie Fenhl, Haylen and Rhinox) do you support either of the leading wagons?

I assume Haylen will opt for Corv unless DP's read comes off worse to her. I assume Rhinox would lean towards Corv based on his sentiments the majority of the game. @Fenhl...while I support an Emp lynch as well...it does not seem to be getting any other support in this game so even if I moved back to Emp it would only muddy things up and increase the chances Corv is the lynch today. If you are somewhat suspicious of either DP or Corv it might be in the best interests of the game to move to whichever of the two you suspect most.

@DP...on Saturday you proclaimed you were back and would have content soon. Was p582 your ~content or are we still waiting for it?

BTW...H

a

p

p

y

H

o

l

i

d

a

y

s to all (town and

scum

alike)!

[Fishythefish]

Day 3, Votecount 7

Corvuus (3) - Nocmen, Empking, DavidParker (L-2)
DavidParker (3) - neko2086, Corvuus, havingfitz (L-2)
Nocmen (1) - Rhinox
Empking (1) - Fenhl

Not Voting (1) - Haylen

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Rhinox is being prodded.

[Rhinox]

fitz: why did you ask haylen to unvote in 594, and then in 602, you say her (and others) should vote one of DP or corvuus? By the way, deadline is still 5 days away, and while there will be some inactivity for xmas, that doesn't mean its now time to limit our choices to the top 2 wagons.

I really should support a corvuus lynch. After what happened D1 and D2, I would really be hating life if corvuus goes on to win the game as scum. But, I just have a really bad feeling today that he might not be scum.

I think 1 or both of haylen and fenhl could be scum.

Fenhl: The biggest thing I don't like is in post 595:

@Corvuus: As Empking said, you really should claim, since we are less than a week away from deadline and I've seen people hammer for not claiming at L-1.

VOTE: Empking

He's voting empking, but he asks Corvuus to claim. There shouldn't be any reason to ask corvuus for a claim if he doesn't intent to vote/lynch him.

I also don't like how he is slowly catching up, but throwing in potshots at empking, and not commenting on anything else. And, prod avoidance posts within a few days of replacing in before being even halfway caught up doesn't look good either.

I don't recall thinking strongly either way about either of fenhl's predecessors.

Haylen: starts out with some points regarding FA/Corvuus. At the end, says she would vote him at this point. The next 2 posts don't contain any game content, but she unvotes corvuus to appease havingfitz in her iso #2 even though in her first post in the game she said she would vote corvuus.

I was not a big fan of either of haylen's active predecessors. Cruelty and antihero were both pretty scummy.

Nocmen is still my first pick today for reasons I've already given. If I had to pick a 3 person scum team right now, it would be Nocmen, Haylen, and 1 of {fenhl, dp, empking, corvuus}

DP and empking made the list because I feel like they've sort of been coasting. Because of the votes that were on corvuus (Nocmen, Emp, DP, and haylen) and DP (neko, fitz, corv), I think I would have to side with my 2 strongest town reads and vote DP if I was absolutely forced to pick between the top 2 wagons. But I want to be clear that Nocmen and Haylen are my 1 and 2 picks, and DP falls somewhere in the 3-6 realm. I really don't want to lynch either corv or DP right now.

mod: you have fenhl listed twice in the recent VC. I think the fenhl not voting should be haylen.

Thanks, fixed.

[neko2086]

It's not looking like Haylen or Fenhl will be completely caught up before deadline. Considering the pace of things at the moment, I'm not sure that 5 days will be enough to swing a different wagon. I'm not convinced that either emp or noc is a better lynch than DP or Corv today.

Fenhl, I'd also like to know what you're referencing in terms of vote-hopping. I find it strange that emp is the one that jumps out at you in regards to singer, when there was a good amount of vote-hopping coming from DP and Noc, and yet you haven't said a word on them, or anyone else, as Rhinox mentioned.

Haylen, I found it somewhat odd that you started with Corv and myself to do reads, though I thought since you would probably get through everyone, it wasn't a big deal. Now, with five days left and six more people to get reads on, I'm again wondering why you chose not to include DP in your initial read, considering Corv and DP are the leading wagons. What was your thought process, and what can we expect from you between now and deadline?

Noc, earlier you said you were going to look at the interaction between singer and DP. Have you found anything?

[Haylen]

Neko, I ALWAYS do my reads in order of player list, basically, I read the game in full then I ISO players as this seems to get me further than actually reading the game as a whole.

I'm gonna write some stuff up and post tonight though aswell as answer the posts about myself.

[Fenhl]

What votehopping?

On D1, you vote havingfitz and give a reason that other players question later. You never elaborate on it and dismiss counter-arguments with things like "that's not up for debate". Then later you vote LrdWhyt for a contradiction. You say that LrdWhyt agreed with you on the massclaim earlier, but disregard what you yourself state in the very same post you vote LrdWhyt: he disagreed with you on a third point, which means that he cannot fully agree to your opinion. Later you vote fallen angel because it's "the only wagon with decent reasoning behind it", and do not provide any original reasons. Then on D2 you immediately vote singersinger without providing any reasons at all. When you meta singersinger and change your mind you vote LrdWhyt again, again without providing any reasons. When you later change your mind again and no longer think that LrdWhyt is scummy, you vote Corvuus, again without providing any reasons. Then on D3 you vote Nocmen because the "wagon" has more support, and then in your very next post you vote Corvuus again, again without providing any reasons. Bottom line: for almost all of the many votes you did, you provide the reasons only upon request, if at all. And when you unvote you always directly vote someone else. To me, this screams "scum".

@Fenhl...while I support an Emp lynch as well...it does not seem to be getting any other support in this game so even if I moved back to Emp it would only muddy things up and increase the chances Corv is the lynch today. If you are somewhat suspicious of either DP or Corv it might be in the best interests of the game to move to whichever of the two you suspect most.

I'd like to ISO both of them before I do, but if deadline gets too close I will jump on a more popular wagon. Right now I am more suspicious of DavidParker than of Corvuus, because IIRC, he has called other players scum or town and doesn't give reasons, much like Empking called singersinger scum/VI.

He's voting empking, but he asks Corvuus to claim. There shouldn't be any reason to ask corvuus for a claim if he doesn't intent to vote/lynch him.

I just felt like pointing out that Corvuus was in danger of being hammered. I did not think of that post as explicitly asking Corvuus to claim, since Empking already did that.

I also don't like how he is slowly catching up, but throwing in potshots at empking, and not commenting on anything else.

The only players I have ISO'd are Empking and singersinger.

It's not looking like Haylen or Fenhl will be completely caught up before deadline.

I am afraid so, especially since I am now not reading for catch up at all, because the deadline is so close.

Fenhl, I'd also like to know what you're referencing in terms of vote-hopping. I find it strange that emp is the one that jumps out at you in regards to singer, when there was a good amount of vote-hopping coming from DP and Noc, and yet you haven't said a word on them, or anyone else, as Rhinox mentioned.

As I already said, Empking is the only living player I have ISO'd.

I will read backwards now and look for cases on Corvuus.

I still have to do this. And after I have done this, I will ISO Corvuus, then DavidParker.

[Rhinox]

I just felt like pointing out that Corvuus was in danger of being hammered. I did not think of that post as explicitly asking Corvuus to claim, since Empking already did that.

@Corvuus: As Empking said,

you really should claim

, since we are less than a week away from deadline and I've seen people hammer for not claiming at L-1.

Looks like a request to claim to me *shrug*.

The only players I have ISO'd are Empking and singersinger.

You've read through at least page 9 according to what you've said. Why do you need to iso someone before you can make any comment on them? Shouldn't you read everyone before deciding which player is the scummiest and voting?

[Empking]

When you later change your mind again and no longer think that LrdWhyt is scummy,

When was that?

And when you unvote you always directly vote someone else. To me, this screams "scum".

Now that's just clutching at straws.

[Fenhl]

Looks like a request to claim to me *shrug*.

I would word a request more like "Please claim." In any case, it does not make a difference whether or not Corvuus sees my warning as a request, since Empking already requested that Corvuus please claim.

You've read through at least page 9 according to what you've said. Why do you need to iso someone before you can make any comment on them?

Recent post matters most. (Rhyme or I eat you)

Shouldn't you read everyone before deciding which player is the scummiest and voting?

I should, but I can't. I am a slow reader.

When was that?

In your ISO #50. Or am I misrepresenting that?

Now that's just clutching at straws.

Sorry, I am not familiar with this idiom. Could you please explain what you mean?

[Empking]

When was that?

In your ISO #50. Or am I misrepresenting that?

No, I'd just forgotten about that.

Now that's just clutching at straws.

Sorry, I am not familiar with this idiom. Could you please explain what you mean?

Unvoting just to vote again straight after doesn't even approach being a scum tell.

[Fenhl]

Unvoting just to vote again straight after doesn't even approach being a scum tell.

I was not talking about that only. The whole thing I posted, including your "instant revotes", is scummy to me.

[Nocmen]

It's not looking like Haylen or Fenhl will be completely caught up before deadline. Considering the pace of things at the moment, I'm not sure that 5 days will be enough to swing a different wagon. I'm not convinced that either emp or noc is a better lynch than DP or Corv today.

Fenhl, I'd also like to know what you're referencing in terms of vote-hopping. I find it strange that emp is the one that jumps out at you in regards to singer, when there was a good amount of vote-hopping coming from DP and Noc, and yet you haven't said a word on them, or anyone else, as Rhinox mentioned.

Haylen, I found it somewhat odd that you started with Corv and myself to do reads, though I thought since you would probably get through everyone, it wasn't a big deal. Now, with five days left and six more people to get reads on, I'm again wondering why you chose not to include DP in your initial read, considering Corv and DP are the leading wagons. What was your thought process, and what can we expect from you between now and deadline?

Noc, earlier you said you were going to look at the interaction between singer and DP. Have you found anything?

With DP and Singer, I think the issue is again that singer isn't scum. Just like corv, I feel that singer's voting pattern could have been just following trends with DP, whether singer thought he was town or scum. But without singer as scum, it doesn't make too much sense. Which is one of the reasons why I'm okay with letting DP live another night, is because singer's actions are either damning or framing if he's scum, but he's not so it just doens't add up for me

[neko2086]

Neko, I ALWAYS do my reads in order of player list, basically, I read the game in full then I ISO players as this seems to get me further than actually reading the game as a whole.

Duh, that makes more sense now. Seems like a good strategy, though it's too bad you may not be able to be caught up by deadline.

Unvoting just to vote again straight after doesn't even approach being a scum tell.

I agree with this, and I really don't see what Fenhl thinks is scummy about moving a vote after unvoting somebody. A person either unvotes because they no longer feel the person they're voting is scum, or they unvote because they find somebody else scummier. The latter is probably the most common. Of course, it

is

generally expected that a reason be given for the vote change, but it's DP more than anyone else who is not doing so.

I feel that singer's voting pattern could have been just following trends with DP, whether singer thought he was town or scum. But without singer as scum, it doesn't make too much sense.

Of course not. If I were basing my case against DP on Singer's alignment as scum, it wouldn't make sense either. But I'm not sure how his alignment hinges on Singer's. It just seems like you're looking at this backwards.

singer's actions are either damning or framing if he's scum

I don't know that I agree with that (or maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say). I thought at one point that Singer was possibly trying to paint DP in a bad light by bringing up meta, so if she turned up scum, I actually would have been more inclined to believe DP to be town. Of course, toward the end she started saying that DP was playing a much more careful game (which really blows my mind), which I could see as pointing to a sing/DP scumteam, but just because she didn't turn up scum doesn't mean he's cleared by this. So, I'm still confused about what it is you see in Singer's voting pattern that makes it unlikely that DP is scum now that she turned up town. She wasn't even voting most of D2.

[Corvuus]

sorry, just posting to avoid prod.
flying from Taiwan back to U.S. in a day and still busy/VLAish.

I'll try to read and catch up when i can squeeze in some time.

C

[DavidParker]

christmas time sucks with family and travelling to keep up to date :/ will try my hardest SOON!!!

[Haylen]

I'm done. I

will not

be revealing any of my other town reads this game as to not give scum a target. I will be replacing my vote on Corvuus though as he is my most definate scumread.

she unvotes corvuus to appease havingfitz in her iso #2 even though in her first post in the game she said she would vote corvuus.

Wrong. I unvoted because I like to make up my own mind in games and not be tied to the vote of someone whom I have replaced.

Looking at DP, I can see why he is a top contender for lynching, he doesn't seem to explain his posts very well and it looks as though he is trying to post as little content as possible without being accused of lurking.

[Haylen]

Oops.

Vote Corvuus

[havingfitz]

H

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p

p

y

H

o

l

i

d

a

y

s to all (town and

scum

alike)!

v/LA until Sunday

[Corvuus]

Haylen: You said you were reading, considering, yet you never answered my questions or said anything further about me except that I am your strongest scum read. What about EMP? (since you say he could/is my buddy). What about my points? I responded both to you and to Mr. Wright and I'm suspicious of your motives. I can understand not wanting to give any more reads but there is no excuse for not saying ANYTHING about Noc and DP. Especially DP since he is, currently, the competing wagon.
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Rhinox: I'm not quite sure I understand every part of your recent posts. But I guess i'll just leave it at that. As long as you don't defend EMP. I do dislike Haylen's posts and I am debating a Noc lynch based on his recent posts (point later), think DP is just going to lurk/avoid and try to sneak by until deadline. I'm in for more of a DP-EMP-Noc-Haylen order.
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Noc: Your iso posts #47. You state that "I'm extremely convinced that at least 1 of Corv and DP are scum". You then state that "If Corv is lynched and comes up town, i'm less convinced of DP-scum". You have similar statements from various other posts which are DP could be scum, but it is a possibility, not a certainty type. (iso post #48, others). You state that DP's lynch would give no info on mine but my lynch (especially since i am town) would give info on DP (you presume clearing him) since DP-scum wouldn't be likely to vote like that. This goes back to my original point (which i think people missed) in that my flip of town does not clear DP-scum in any way since DP-scum voting for singer allows for Corv-town mislynch the next day. There is a scum motive for what DP did.

I'm open to a Noc lynch more than i was at the start of the day but I think Noc-DP interaction should be considered especially if you guys lynch me today.
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DP: Your iso #56 is very strange.

Because I had a gut scum-read stronger on singer. I decided to go with it. I'm voting you now because the case on you is a strong one and I believe you have behaved scummily and your wagon on day 1 not being hammered indicates quite possible scum. My gut is leaning town on you but looking at your iso I see my head telling me scum...

When did the 'gut scum-read stronger on singer' occur, why? State in your own words, how have I behaved scummily, and why does not being hammered day 1 indicate possible scum (now as opposed to before?). Especially compare your start of the day when you stated "bandwagon case I like" and voted Noc (iso #49) yet you later state that I am trying to divert my wagon onto you/Noc (and you state i did it scummily when I just called out what you did, and I assigned you the blame?)? What do you think of Noc right now?

That is all the time i have for right now. Be back after Christmas. VLA to 26th.
Corvuus

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post:

Mr. Wright makes a similar point to Noc in his last post before he replaces. So i'm more open to a Noc-DP-Haylen possibility, but prefer a DP lynch first. The other 2 are slightly more interchangable (i still really dislike EMP) but that is where I am at.

C

[Empking]

Is anybody willing to hammer Corv?

[Fenhl]

@Empking:

Sorry, but I currently have a stronger scumread on DavidParker. I'll post the full case when I have more time.

[havingfitz]

@Empking:

Sorry, but I currently have a stronger scumread on DavidParker. I'll post the full case when I have more time.

Isn't your vote still on Empking (and the only one on him)? If it's on DP please disregard.

Rhinox...what are you doing? Is your vote still on Nocmen and do you expect that wagon to produce results before the deadline? Or are you happy staying off the impending corv or DP lynches?