The Lord of the Rings Mafia - GAME OVER (KABOOM)

[VasudeVa]

Vote: Cogito Ergo Sum

Oldbies seem to like that character. . It's kinda creepy.

[VasudeVa]

1. Books or Movies?
Books. The movies lack the immersion available in the books.

2. Favorite Book?
I haven't exactly finished the books yet, so I can't comment.

3. Favorite Movie?
Two Towers. Helm's deep was epic. Easily one of the best directed war scenes of all time. I really liked how fluid the underlying emotions were, from "We are brave motherfuckers defending a fucking castle FUCK YEAH" --> "OH SHIT, THIS IS HOPELESS. OMG WE'RE LOSING." ---> "OHH SWEET JESUS A RAY OF HOPE! GOO GANDALFF~".

4. Favorite Character(s)?
Book-Frodo. I hated how he much Elijah Wood depicted Movie-Frodo as a cowardly sissy. >.>. Book-Frodo is leagues better than Movie-Frodo.

[VasudeVa]

Oh and I don't plan on answering those LOTR questions.

I spent 9 months in Middle Earth, and that was bad.

Explain.

Vote: Katsuki

(btw, Hi. )

[VasudeVa]

Lord of the Rings is pretty much the only thing I'm a fangirl of. I read the Hobbit when I was six and the main trilogy when I was 8-9, and I've read it again multiple times since then. I've seen the animated and the recent movies and I've also read a lot of Tolkien's other works.

Vote: Wraith

While the initial question was a good way to get conversation going, putting it into questions like you did doesn't really add anything new, and encourages people to go into detail about how much they like LOTR instead of starting to play the game.

So, his RQS questionnaire isn't game related. So? Is there such a thing as a scummy questionnaire?

[VasudeVa]

Oh and I don't plan on answering those LOTR questions.

I spent 9 months in Middle Earth, and that was bad.

Explain.

Vote: Katsuki

(btw, Hi. )

HAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

and no, I do not plan to explain.

I did lol at the first phrase in the role PM they have though.

Why are you being openly uncooperative on a harmless exercise(RQS) and my potentially harmful(to you) vote+question?

Come on, former scumqueen, you can do better than that. You do know I have first hand experience with you-scum since, we were scum recently and all.

[VasudeVa]

@Glork:

Why are you voting for Memoria Esponia?

@Memoria:

Do you honestly still believe in OMGUS? Did you discuss your #64 post with your hydra-mate before posting that, or is it purely of your belief?

@Gandalf:

Links of you doing Large Theme RVS wackiness plx.

[VasudeVa]

Oh? This is interesting.

Gandalf is being gandalf... Though not seeming town AT ALL.
Zwet is being zwet...
Either Elli or DGB (or both) are smoking too much
But...

Unvote, Vote VV

Scum meta. Skate his way through another game as scum? I think not.

Hahaha, no. I do this as scum and as Town. Fo' srs.

Why is Gandalf being gandalf, yet not seeming Town? Does that mean gandalf is scummy in this game or gandalf is always scummy in every game?

Zwet should be ignored as much as possible, obv. For the uninformed: zwet, in a recent game, singlehandedly demolished Town with his antics.

[VasudeVa]

@Memoria:

How the fuck did that happen? I linkedCastlevania Mafia there >.>. Odd. Anyway, this link shoouuld be correct. (Ask your Hydra mate about this. 8D.)

PS. I like how you said a simple 5 word 'zwet wasn't in that game LoL'. Kinda funky. 8D

@InHim:

Hi! Why do you suspect those people? Reasons are cool.

[VasudeVa]

HEY FORMER SCUMBUDDIES. I CAN CAPSLOCK TOO. CASTLEVANIA MAFIA IN DA HAUZZ.

--

@LMP: Finish this sentence for me. Because ME's post is terrible, ME is ___.

@Katsuki: Substantiate your gut call: Why am I scum? Have you fo srs compressed my whole scumgame and found it 3 pages in? Stop spreading the WIFOM around, it's bad for Town.

[VasudeVa]

@DGBElli:

Hi! How's that early gambit working out for you? Did you ask the mod first if you were allowed to claim buddies?

@Katsuki:

Why is Mariyta Townie from that post? I don't see it.

@Mod: Are scum allowed to claim scumbuddies(real or not)in this game?(I seem to see this as disallowed in some games, soo yeah.) Also, do scum have daytalk?

---

Vote: MemoriaEsponia

[VasudeVa]

InHim is a double voter?

@Katy:

I don't buy the reasoning that someone would have taken gandalf's joke-claim seriously given how absurd it was(Treestump + 3action JOAT Hah.). It looks like you're making it sound worse than it actually is. Real Gandalf would probably have ignored that shit.

@zwet:

Why are they scummy for jumping on your wagon? (Given your reputation and the nonsense nature of your claim and all.)

[VasudeVa]

Gollum makes more sense as a bounty-hunter variant though.(ie. kill Frodo, get the ring, win and exit the game.)

I thoroughly dislike Katsuki's #189 and #192, threatening Wraith to with a lynch if he doesn't bus and then telling him that 'bandwagoning is cool' tho. I mean, really.

Vote: Katsuki

[VasudeVa]

It's more like you and LMP left me out.

I thought we were scumzbuddies4ever </3.

[VasudeVa]

Srsly, though, much of the pressure on Wraith looks scum-driven. There are plenty of other, better candidates for lynch. Like M.E.

Oh great Glork, who are the supposed scum on the Wraith wagon? (To refresh your mind: Katy, WeirdRa, Edge, SpyreX, Katsuki)

--

Not in the slightest bit interested in the Wraith wagon. I'm getting a little bit used to Fate. He makes every little thing his perceived scum does sound so scummy when it, in fact, isn't. He takes no apologies for the Town flip, pisses on their gravestone and then necrophilia. *slowmotion*

Ooohh yeaaahhh~

He will also appear drunk at your wedding, if you invite him.

Katsuki is so obviously scum, I think I'll have to make a mega wall post in her honor.

[VasudeVa]

Awesome, Mariyta is scumz too. That ignorance is so obviously faked, I mean woah.

(No wall post glorifiying the scumgoddess' Katsuki's lynch yet. I'm hungover as fuck.)

[VasudeVa]

@VV: We shall see. I have seen town you, granted I did not play.

You just give me scummy vibes. And I should know scum you well enough = =

Oh really? When did you see Town me? What is the difference here? Don't you think it's possible that I may have changed my meta?

Please tell me you're trolling us all. PLEASE.

Apologies for my absence, not used to this whole "hydra" concept yet. Lulz.

Anywho.

Let's see who are scums.

Mariyta
bv
Wraith
LMP
Kats
LMP
LMP (Did I tell you guys LMP is scum yet?)

Wraith, do you even know what strawmanning is?

Wraith gets rope, yes? Town-wraith shuts down but doesn't say "fuck it, I'm lurking." Scum-wraith did. I despise meta personally, and he's just playing bad, but for anyone who wants abbreviated Wraith meta, there it be.

Jenni makes me feel tingly, and not the good tingly and not becuz she r gurl.

Dear Wraith,

Your concept on scumhunting is off. Half of scumhunting is finding scums. The other half is convincing people you're right.

Cordially,
WeirdRa head without name representation

^^Scum. Too many excuses in too many areas. He probably, in scum fashion!, thought long and hard about this post and edited lots of stuff to be extra extra careful with this post.

Also possibly tying himself with Wraith.

Ok Glork, I'll humor him.

HEY WRAITH WHAT CONNECTIONZ DO U SEE AND WHAT DO YOU WANT TO PURSUE TODAY with your OH SO VALUABLE PRECIOUS VOTE.

ANYONE can say "this this and this happened" HES NOT TAKING ANY FURTHER STEPS.


Plus there's no way I'm voting SpyreX D1. It just won't happen. Not on my watch

Why? Do you disagree with Glork's reasoning? Are you trying to setup another CAPS Alliance here?

[VasudeVa]

He's not misreading, he's interpreting Spy's posts. Massive difference.

Also, why the fuck are you defending him then? Is it becauz you two are FRIENDS FOREVER?

Unlike other people here, I know how you ruthlessly defend people only to manipulate them in the end~

[VasudeVa]

Hey guys, just checking in to say that I've been sick for the past few days and I don't necessarily feel better right now.

V/LA for a few.

[VasudeVa]

Hey there.

Soo, I've been sick for a while and I'm still feeling down due to medication. Gimme a list of things to reply on to help me ease back into the game.

[VasudeVa]

....

I don't suppose you ever get sick?

---

Better late than never:

Katsuki is scum!

Evidence #1:

Attacks on Wraith.
This is the biggest reason I suspect her. Her attacks on Wraith are staged. She doesn't really believe that Wraith is scum(because, you know. She's scum and she has to fake attack townies to look like she's scumhunting). I mean, srsly

She went from this:

OR, IF YOU DON'T START BUSSING NOW, YOU TOO WILL GET ROPE.

I totally forgot to add you onto my scum list for trying to duck out of stuff... = = (Were on my list last night)

To this:

Well, I'm not against the bandwagoning. I wouldn't give you flak for that.

in 40 mins! Double standards much? If she really thought that Wraith was scum, she wouldn't give him this advice. Of course, an explanation for this is that she may be looking for connections. But I don't think so. I've only ever played with Katsuki once (She was my scumqueen in that game), and she strikes me as an aggressive player who would want to lynch as soon as possible. That theory does not fit with her personality.

Evidence #2:

Horribad scumlists.

TOWN:
Katsuki
Glork
LockeL
Jenniwen
Fate/Edge
Katy
CES
Dripperith

SCUM:
ME
Gandalf
LMP
Wraith
WeirdRa
Nero
VV

Parrot Parrot Parrot. It's easy to keep the illusion of scumhunting by suspecting the top suspects.

The only attack here that is truly hers is her attack on me and it's unsubstantiated. She persistently kept me on the scum list for bad flimsy reasons(unless you think that gut+meta is a good excuse(it isn't, and it's easy to fake.)). I theorize that the only reason she is keeping me on it so that she will not be accused of parroting.

Conclusion: Kat is scum, git off gandalf, vote for Katsuki.

[VasudeVa]

Greetings 3/4ths of the WeirdRa wagon! (Edge, Glork, Spy)

Can I persuade you to switch to Katsuki? Is there a reason why you prefer WeirdRa over Katsuki? Have you read my case on her? How badly do you want WeirdRa lynched?

It is painfully obvious that they are scumbuddies, though(check out dem votals. I like how they join scummy Town wagons and ignore each other's existence. It's awesome.).

That said though, I'm willing switch to WeirdRa too but Katsuki is the leading wagon on scum soo, I don't get why you guys are being picky.

---

[VasudeVa]

Vote: WeirdRa

Scumgoddess Katsuki gets to live another day, it seems. This makes me sad. Although dead eccentric Egyptian sungod is good too.

---

@Katsuki: Why haven't you deflected my attack #2 when it is the weaker of my points against you? What do you mean I'm pro-town when I'm scum? I seem to remember that in our game, I was the most horrible fencesitter in the entire game, I didn't have my vote intent on lynching for two phases in a row. (You even complained that on our QT.). Here, I want you dead. What do you think of this difference?

@MemoriaEscumnia: I left Mariyta out because I'm waiting on her to react. 8D. Mariytaa, where are yoouuuuu~ React react!

[VasudeVa]

Kat: WRAITH, VOTE X
Wraith: OH NOEEEEEE YOU GUYS GONNA CALL ME SCUM IF I VOTE. /WOEISME
Kat: I at least won't (I am the one saying to vote).

Soo what you're saying is:

You thought he was scum. You asked him to wagon with you. When he whined about it, you said you won't call him scum for the bandwagoning...(despite having have had put him in your scumlist)..?

Why did you call him scum before that? What made his scum-'bus'...not scummy?

---

React to what? You posted that AFTER I posted that my vote was on Weird and wouldn't move. I assumed you saw that and didn't bother with me. Or maybe you would prefer...

Actually, this is exactly it. I thought you were scum and then I saw this post of yours. If you suddenly complained why I specifically left you out, I would've given you the same honor Katsuki has received, in a form of a big post calling for your head .

[VasudeVa]

I am not of opinion that LMP weak-doc protected scum.

Firstly, there are 2 vig-ilicious Arrow kills (Memoria, gandalf) and 2 kills of scummy flavor('Corrupted' and 'Bled to death'). There are two scum teams. It's easy here. Second off, do you honestly believe that a weak-doc who didn't claim would up and protect their prime suspect like that? Weak docs don't think that way. Not N1, at least.

Vote: Katsuki

[VasudeVa]

To be clear on what I think:

'Sauron' Mafia kill: LMP
Other Mafia kill: Drippereth
Vigs: gandalf, Memoria.

--

Wagon Katsuki for me plx? <3.

-p-edit: Why Nero Cain?

[VasudeVa]

I did. SpyreX suggested it first though. Why aren't you going after him?

Haylen kill is SK getting lucky. My on-the-spot SK choice would be Mariyta.

[VasudeVa]

I did. SpyreX suggested it first though. Why aren't you going after him?

Because SpyreX is protown. This was well established yesterday.

Fair enough. (I personally don't see SpyTown though~)

What about you, what do YOU think of the Haylen kill yesterday? What about the possible Sauron mafia members who were counterwagoning gandalf(Rewq, Slysly, Cogito, Katy) during the gandalf vs. WeirdRa

(v. Katsuki)

wagon?

[VasudeVa]

Yo, a2rudeboy I see you posting in that other game we are in.

Failure to not post here will result to heavy scrutiny.

[VasudeVa]

I missed LMPs last post. I redact my 'I think LMP was the scumkill' point. There is 100% scum in Katsuki/Mariyta/rewq.

Hell, I won't be surprised if these three actually are scum. I studied LMPs ISO, and his reasons on attacking these three are legit. Although from his posts, I feel like it is more likely that he targetted Katsuki, second Mariyta.

I can confirm SpyreX's point that a2rudeboy has been posting elsewhere but not here. I'm in another on going game with him. (Although, you really only have to click a2rudeboy's profile -> check posts to see but w/e.)

Katsuki's soo obviously scum right now. I remember when I was scum against Vi, I was pitifully attempting to discredit an obvtown player by asking ridiculously unimportant questions. Her incessent questioning of Glork's SpyTown read reads as that.

(Disclaimer: Yes, I did ask Glork too~ but I wasn't needlessly pressy with it.)

Glork can't sincerely believe Spyrex is town. I don't believe it.

I'd like an explanation of this please. Why do you think Glork is being insincere?

BTW, I'm toying with the idea that VV is the one who bused Weird. This really only becomes plausible if Kats flips non-Mordor. VV's "get off of Weird and onto Kats" then "gah, fine, we'll lynch Weird" post reads "I'm going to try to get the wagon moving in a different direction, but if it doesn't work, I want to look like the swing vote."

Why don't you help me lynch Katsuki so you can find out?

rewq455 - 3 -

Katy, Katsuki, SlySly

Katsuki - 4 - Wraith, VasudeVa, inHimshallibe, Edge

Waitaminute...I think I've seen this somewhere before~

gandalf5166 - 4 -

Katsuki,

WeirdRa

, SlySly, Katy

Mariyta - 1 - bv310
Nero Cain - 2 - jenniwren, Locke Lamora
Katsuki - 2 - Nero Cain, MemoriaEsponia

WeirdRa - 13 - Mariyta, Edge, Glork, SpyreX, Cogito Ergo Sum, inHimshallibe, VasudeVa, Wraith, LynchMePls, gandalf5166, Dekes, Drippereth, rewq455

rewq4 - 1 - zwetschenwasser

THE PLOT THICKENS.

[VasudeVa]

I love being right. 8D. (I was expecting her to be Mordor though, actually due to the seeming relationship to WeirdRa D1.)

Vote: SlySly

, until I find me next suspect. Dem votals I quoted earlier is pretty bad.

[VasudeVa]

V/LA for a few. Busy with stuff

[VasudeVa]

Yes. Whenever I am scum I usually make sure to vote exactly with my scum buddies, just to make it easier for town to see who we all are. You were in Gods and Men, where I was scum. You can take a look at my voting record there and see how much I like to vote along with my buddies when I am scum.

*dodges WIFOM grenade*

Not if your buddies are in trouble though. It makes perfect sense for scum to bloc-vote for survival. I was expressing a slight suspicion on this very possible possibility. (Also, no way I'm reading a game I didn't read.)

Now then, I have particular dislike for your #856 for its contents with a pinch of gut. If you are scumbuddies with WeirdRa, you would know that he had Gimli(impt. character) as a fake claim and were testing waters to see if it will absolve him, while keeping your vote on the second largest wagon. (Also a slight point out to rewq's scumminess, null but it seemed off.).

I also think it's pretty damning that the only time you've mentioned WeirdRa D1 (prior to #856) was in #562 (Very very slight 'I will reread WeirdRa' and failing to do so) also in your #717 (soft defense + 'I will reread WeirdRa', and STILL failing to do so)

Anyway,

Vote: Katy

---

Comments on current events to come when I can wrap my head around them. I got a shit ton of games to catch-up to. (This reminds me why I dislike large games >.> But I really couldn't afford to miss this one <3 Andy.)

[VasudeVa]

Will consider switching to zwet. I want reactions on my Katy case.

Also:

a2rudeboy and Locke Lamora still missing. Prod/replace plx.

[VasudeVa]

Mari: so you did. Sorry for missing it, bit swamped with catchup right now. Just doing a more detailed look over Katy while I wait for Sly to respond and here's a nice collection of quotes relating to WeirdRa:

I haven't read anything from WeirdRa in a while but see a lot of people suspect of him so that's one I have to go back and reread.

I've read up to now and don't feel the need to change my vote right now. I do still need to look closely at WeirdRa and figure out what's so scummy about them, because it still hasn't struck me yet.

Why are people suddenly in such a rush to lynch before a claim? I know deadline is coming up, but we have until Saturday, yes? I would prefer to give WeirdRa another night to claim since that player doesn't seem to have much time to post.

I want to second Wraith's request for people voting WeirdRa to say exactly why, I've read them in iso and I don't get it. Or at least, I don't see what's so different about them than any number of players in the game so far. I like my Gandalf vote much better for now.

Avoids making any kind of committal comment on the slot, stalls for time instead of doing so and finally tries to buy more time when WeirdRa's about to get lynched. Also pushes for Gandalf (and also Rewq) when the WeirdRa lynch is imminent.

Uhm. Dude. I just said all that. *points above-ish*

[VasudeVa]

Vote:a2rudeboy

@Zwet: Do you know why you are lynch immune today? Did you receive anything from the mod explaining your situation?

(Regardless though, I want zwet strangled or shot with an arrow. Preferably strangled, much much more painful and satisfying for me.)

--

Well, all I can say to that is that's not how I roll, but you can either believe that or not. In any case, it is impossible for what you have pointed out to be a scum block vote, since both WeirdRa and Katsuki were on there and they were on different scum teams.

2 votes count as bloc votes though besides, there was a time when there like 6 votes on gandalf. This point is a bit silly.

If I had known what WeirdRa was going to claim I would have voted for him before the claim, knowing that it wouldn't actually save him. It was pretty obviously not even intended to work, but to draw a counterclaim. If I were his buddy, I would have tried to hop on that wagon before the claim, or to hammer like rewq did.

But I didn't know what he was going to claim and was willing to give him a chance to do so. It was L-1, there was still about two days to the deadline, and I believe it was SpyreX was trying to get people to hammer before Weird made his claim. That doesn't sit well with me, especially as I did read WeirdRa again and nothing jumped out at me as horribly scummy, and the only person who seemed to have made a clear case for him was Mariyta. I wanted to at least give Weird the night to claim. The only reason the push to lynch him without claim doesn't seem scummy is because he was scum.

Hmm? Noo, he fucked up his claim by claiming Gimli - cop. Pregame, you guys discussed your mod-given fakeclaims and you knew he had Gimli. (Also you woulnd't have voted him since he was at L-1 and all with a pretty awesome fakeclaim.) If Gimli claimed something that made sense with his fakeclaim(which I think you were banking on when you were waiting on people to claim), I think there might have been a reasonable chance of the wagon dissolving and then subsequently moving onto Gandalf who was still in heavy suspicion at that point.

I find it weird that you are pointing fingers toward SlySly in your defense, seeing as you jumped with him in the gandalf wagon in this page.

Miss LOTR fangirl, Answer these as honestly as you can for me please:
What do you think about Gimli? Did you think he was an important character?

Earlier I laid out a very similar argument against SlySly, who seemed to me to be much more active in trying to drive votes away from Weird. I was reluctant to vote for him myself before hearing his claim, but was not actively trying to move votes away. I also pointed out rewq's behavior at the end of the day. Why do you think I look MOST like a WeirdRa buddy? Why more so than either of those two?

Nah, it doesn't fit with your personality(careful, analytical meta player) to actively drive votes away from Gandalf. It, however, fits with your personality to make soft-defenses, and subtly imply that you don't think he's scum(while prepping up one of them awkward bus votes).

Defense doesn't hold, deflection noted.

[VasudeVa]

ITT, VV is a moron who thinks two bandwagons with the same people on it indicate those people are scumbuddies.

Move along, Glork.

N0 Lucid Dreamer lozer. *cough*

[VasudeVa]

Yes, because voting for a player without momentum behind her nor apparent interest from everyone else in the thread a few days before deadline is optimum Town play.

[VasudeVa]

I'm not sure what the best course of action is here.

On one hand, there have been far too many claims already + the 'hider' is a bit powerful, IMO. On the other hand, I kinda want Katy dead but...eh..I'm not done thinking it through yet. I'm not as sure with her as I was with Katsuki tbh. (Also her last post is...okay sounding. Hmm... I'm so conflicted.)

I'll return in a few hours, after I do some thinking.

Unvote

, for now.

[VasudeVa]

What the fuck is this shit? Some kind of shitty reality show with twists goddamn everywhere to fuck with our heads? OH GAD THIS GAME IS AWESOME I LOVE YOU ALL.

We love you too, Vas.

- The Baker

Let me mess with SpyreX more. *trollface*

I don't think Nero is scum, based on this post. He points out the rules we haven't read, explaining gandalf's 'slip' and therefore making it clear that we have 2 scum teams. We know gandalf is Town, and I really don't see scum doing this. We've been oblivious of the 2 Mafia teams thing for, like, 30 pages since here. I think any of the Mafia would have pointed that out.

If we are going to lynch one of the 'unknowns', off the top of my head, I like Dekes, jenni or rewq.

[VasudeVa]

EBWOP: 'I don't think the Mafia would have pointed that out.'

[VasudeVa]

Addendum: I also don't think it makes sense for scum-A2R to claim no action.

[VasudeVa]

@Glork: MJ. I love me some MJ.

Smoke weeeeddd~ *gangsta signzz*

I disagree. I think that it would have makes more sense to wing it and fakeclaim a hide since he was damn near a lynch with like, 3 posts behind him.

Chances of targeting other scumteam are low, since they are probably 2 for 2 now. Hell, he could have fakeclaimed a hide behind, say, an obviously Town player(you, Fate, whoever). Boom, easy fakeclaim. It was easy, and he'll probably get away with it.

(Also I'm not sure what kind of hider you're talking about here, since the hiders I know don't PR shield themselves, rather they only go bulletproof.)

[VasudeVa]

Yes, rewq, we know what a hider is.

[VasudeVa]

Star Wars Mafia was 3/3/1/x IIRC, so yes, that's believable.

ULTIMATE FACEPALM at the rest of this madness.

Remind me again why we aren't lynching Katy THIS VERY SECOND.

bcmcflakeflake said something and then people were convinced.

I doubt bv will be here to explain himself.

[VasudeVa]

^I meant bvmcflakeflake310, in case it wasn't clear.

[VasudeVa]

I'm really fucking tired of Edge's "DO IT NOW BECAUSE I SAID SO" shit. You're fun most of the time, but now is not the time to be a fuckhead. You initially made it sound like you had a confirmed scum on Katy, which was total bullshit and really pisses me off.

CAPS = Rhetoric on EASY MODE. It's his cute little way of convincing people!

(Do what I do! Read Fate's posts in Gilbert Gottfried's voice. It is 1000x more hilarous. You'll actually have

fun

reading Fate's ISO! I sometimes do this in my spare time.)

---

/popcorn

[VasudeVa]

Vote: Zwet

Oh cool, 1 death.

[VasudeVa]

Welp, with Glork dead and flippin' Mordor, I agree that SpyreX needs some form of rope. That Glorkian buddy distancing D1 is awesome.

Vote: SpyreX

I do think that the scum teams are 1-1 now, and it's showing signs that they may have been mirrored. (I won't be surprised if Saruman flips Bulletproof Rolecop or the Wraithking flips Strongman.). I'll have to think about my little chat with Glork in our theorizing of the number of scum. What do you guys think anyway? Do you think Glork would have said a higher or lower number as scum?

[VasudeVa]

Vote: Zwet

Wait, so Edge thou art not cop? You...trusted me? <3

*sniff*

I love you too Fate!

[VasudeVa]

Unvote

That's a lot of modkills, should there be quickhammer shenanigans.

Dekes, Edge said something about a gambit being successful or whatnot. Made me think not-cop.

[VasudeVa]

Actually, I'm thinking that there is only 1 Mordor left. Sauron was a bulletproof rolecop. That's TWO fucking roles in one. All the Isengardians had 1 role tops, and most of them were shitty roles. And if that second wincon is true, Sauron was one DANGEROUS motherfucker since he could easily parse out ringbearers with his PR.

@Katy: You two alignment confirmed?

(Oh, Andy + Plum. You putting Greek Mythos part deux in here? <3. Ahh, memories.)

I really want Dekes to have get some flak today, as he's easily cruising along the game. Somewhat like how I did him in in Castlevania Mafia not so long ago~

Vote: Dekes

[VasudeVa]

Actually, I'm thinking that there is only 1 Mordor left. Sauron was a bulletproof rolecop. That's TWO fucking roles in one. All the Isengardians had 1 role tops, and most of them were shitty roles. And if that second wincon is true, Sauron was one DANGEROUS motherfucker since he could easily parse out ringbearers with his PR

No wait, that's obviously false because of the new kill flavor.

Oh, and I'm pro-MC.

[VasudeVa]

You're pro-MC? Do you have some clever reason for getting around the fact that the Mordor scum will just kill the ringbearers and win?

I think it will be better if we can cross-check claims at LEAST 2 nights before Mordor can get the WC. They have 2 rings. They need 2 rings. They have 1 kill a night. Plus they're probably competing with Gollum. (In fact, I speculate that Gollum only really needs the One Ring and then he leaves the game. Gollum has no need for the other three elven rings.)

If we're doing an MC, might as well do it now.

[VasudeVa]

Hmm..actually, you're right that may be a bad idea after all.

Perhaps we should do role claims with nameclaims? We really need to cross check results.

[VasudeVa]

EBWOP: without nameclaims/ringclaims?

[VasudeVa]

Not necessarily. Gollum knows a member of Mordor has the ring, but we have no clue who could be Mordor anyway.

I also don't think that Gollum is necessarily a hostile third party(ie. contradicting wincons with Town.). That mechanic is based on Greek Mythology, a mini theme that had a similar mechanic. Collect all three Zeus counters and win. Despite awesome awesome awesome Town play(like narrowing the 4 man scum team down in D2 awesome) , the Mafia still won because of the counter. I think that Gollum is the fail-safe for this. If he gets the One ring(Quite easy IMO, as long as he survives long enough), he leaves and that wincon is doomed away.

Like I said, bounty hunter variant .

That said, this is all speculation without much evidence so YMMV.

I still want that role+results MC, maayybe with a caveat that protective roles should lie and claim VT(For Katy's ring protection).

Role+Results MC poll ->
Yay: Vas
Nay(with reasons!):

[VasudeVa]

Tracker. I can slightly confirm InHim. He visited no one night 3 thus no-ring, no nightkills = probTown. I know I wasn't roleblocked because I was presumably roleblocked N1 by Katsuki(tracked her.) with a no-result.

My night 2 result is...something that I've been mulling on. I think it may be incriminating, but I'm just not sure.

Now you see why I'm pushing the selective night claim, huh?

[VasudeVa]

Really, Fate. I would have

loved

to be Gollum.

[VasudeVa]

I prefer Dekes by a LARGE margin. I know that Mariyta fluctuates heavily from Town to Scum but Dekes is a non-entity who tunnels whenever he gets on. Plus, Locke Lamora's case makes a lot sense if you people actually read it. FTR, I don't see why LL is scummy. I see him as a Townie struggling to catch up.

[VasudeVa]

Plus: I kinda liked her end of D2 play. It was truthful honest to god Townish. I think that she's just one of them scummy players who people auto-assume stuff on.

[VasudeVa]

Dearest Council of Awesome-dell,
Mariyta is probably not scum based on her end of D2 play(Remember that day? When we were raging for a lynch after A2R's claim? Good times, good times) which was one of the most genuinely townie reaction to a deadline lynch I have ever seen.

Move your votes accordingly. Preferably to Dekes.

Love, Vas.

PS: I like Locke too, but I won't shed tears if we do end up lynching him. I really think he's a Townie struggling to catchup.

[VasudeVa]

Jenniwren, be a dear and grace us with your presence please?

I see you somewhere in Coney Island~

[VasudeVa]

^^ More points for Dekes scum.

This guy has contributing jack shit D4, and now he's 'V/LA'. Active lurking at it's finest.

[VasudeVa]

He has done nothing D4. Barely even posted, if at all. However he finds time to say he's V/LA.

He's avoiding the thread and lurking his ass of, scheming probably. Like all bad guys do.

[VasudeVa]

I did.

[VasudeVa]

We get it, you two are Town.

Now vote Dekes. Seriously, vote Dekes.

[VasudeVa]

We get it, you two are Town.

Now vote Dekes. Seriously, vote Dekes.

You're half right. And I think you're wrong about Dekes. Throw out Halloween v/la as part of your case, because that's invalid. How else has he lurked? He's been pretty active, IMO. Much more active than LL. What else do you have on him, aside from lurking?

LL's case on Dekes IS very good. I advice you to read it.

This 'ignore the lurker's posts, they're scum!' mentality is retarded. People lurk all the time for various reasons. I do not see LL's lurking to be malicious at all. All you guys really have on him is his lurking and that's taking the easy way out. I find his attempts to catch up to be very genuine and he's been attempting to look for scum even if he's time constrained IRL.

Dekes is...similar, but there is that established link between Dekes and Glork in LL's case that had me convinced. LL has absolutely no valid links to Glork/Weird that I can remember.

We have 2 goddamn Mordor Flips. It is not the time to be 'LYNCH ALL LURKERs'. We need to check interactions and LL's case is the analysis of Glork/WeirdRa interactions available.

We got lucky with A2R because he's a retard. Dekes, if scum, is competent and won't stupidly lurk his way to oblivion.

I've been grasping at straws here to get you people to listen but nonoonoo.

[VasudeVa]

Any death miller claim is equivalent to a scum claim.

Vote: Wraith

[VasudeVa]

I think Wraith is the Goon though. Makes sense that Glork didn't bus him D1, since Goon hard buses are LoL'd upon and are a complete waste.

In other news, Dekes claims makes super sense. I checked if he was genuine about being pissed on Edge, and there it is in ISO #24. You can't fake that stuff.

Yeaah, Wraith is def the lynch.

--prev-edit:

No. If anyone ever ever ever mentions death miller at any point, that

alone

is good reason to lynch him for either being an idiot or being scum.

[VasudeVa]

I wasn't really reading your posts. In fact, I was consciously ignoring you. When have I ever mentioned you ever in this game anyway?

But whenever a player puts 'death' and 'miller' next to each other, it magically summons a Vegas Blinky sign thingie that says 'LYNCH ME, I'M SCUM'. Death millers are horrendously unpopular, people hate death millers because they are the epitomy of bastard moddery. Highest level of bastard modding you could ever hope to reach in one role.

You are scum. Die.

[VasudeVa]

Also, I'd rather someone who we don't think is Gollum hammer.

[VasudeVa]

I am not even going to listen to you.

WRAITH.

FUCKING.

CLAIMED.

FUCKING.

DEATH.

MILLER.

IN A NON-BASTARD MOD GAME.

FUCKING

DEATH MILLER.

DEATH MILLER.

DEATH MILLERRRRRRRRRRR.

Ps. I'm Legolas.

[VasudeVa]

Okay, fuck it. I am not going to stand by with Fate's ABSOFUCKING RETARDED antics anymore.

Anti-Town as a motherfucker. At first I was like 'Oh that's just Fate being ziilyyy.' But now I've had it. Fucking Fate being fucking silly and doing fucking retarded shit. Policy lynch is go. This guy can't stand around doing his shit. This guy is poison to our lovely Town.

JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN FUCKING YELL HARDER DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE RIGHT.

Vote: Edge

PS. Wraith still needs dead.

[VasudeVa]

Also: jenniwren visited SpyreX. I thought it was some nazgul summoning poison kill or whatthefucknot.

@LOL FATE.

[VasudeVa]

ATTENTION TOWN. I CAN ENLARGE MY CAPS TOO.

LYNCH FATE. CONFIRM FUCKLOADS.

EASY AS PIE. 3 DAYS TO GO

VOTE FATE. FOR MIDDLE EARTH.

@PREVEDIT. IF YOU WOULD JUST PAY ATTENTION.
N1: NO RESULT, ROLEBLOCKED
N2: JENNI VISITED SPY
N3: INHIM VISITS NO ONE.

FUCK.

[VasudeVa]

ITT: Edge is Gollum.

[VasudeVa]

Yeaaahh, Edge is Gollum. Yep. No-DK gambit, taking advantage of inHim's claim.

If Edge isn't Gollum, there would be another dead body around here somewhere because it's fairly obvious that Edge isn't mordor.

Fate likes gambits like that. In fact, he had be SQUEALING for a daykill for god knows how long. The last time he did something like that, was in Invitational 11 where he was the vig and he was screaming WIFOMy shit like 'DONT VIG ELLI', 'I THINK THERE ARE TWO VIGS'. Shit like that.

(I mean, how many 'town' gambits has he done/is doing so far? Hmm? No-DK gambit makes perfect sense for Fate-Gollum.)

And you have the fucking balls to claim hammer. UNVOTE NOW. SCUM BE IN OUR GRASP. VOTE EDGE.

[VasudeVa]

NO. FUCK YOU.

SCUM IS SCUM, RED OR NOT. IT'S AS EASY AS THAT.

SCUM NEED TWO KILLS IF THEY ARE LUCKY AND READ LIKE GODS. ALSO, IT IS LIKELY THAT THEY'LL KILL ME BEFORE THEY KILL ANYONE ELSE BECAUSE I'M TRACKING THEIR EVERY FUCKING MOVE EVERY NIGHT. AND I HAVE NARROWED DOWN SCUM WELL ENOUGH FOR THEM TO FEAR ME, I BOUGHT US +1 NIGHT FUCKTARD.

LASTLY, THERE IS A LAST DOC SOMEWHERE BECAUSE 1 WEAKSHIT PROTECTIVE ROLE IN A LARGE GAME IS STUPID.

WE HAVE THIS GAME. SCUM LIKE YOU NEED TO DIE. SIMPLE.

NOW FUCKING DIE ALREADY.

ALSO, I LIKE HOW YOUR DEFENSE IS 'GO LOOK FOR MORDORSCUM GTFO.' AS IF IT'S A CONVINCING ARGUMENT WHEN IT ISNT.

GO DELUDE YOURSELF THAT YOU ARE CONVINCING PEOPLE.

YOU ARENT.

DIE DIE DIE

PS: I MISSED THIS. FUCK YOU FATE. <3.

[VasudeVa]

In that game I screamed all sorts of shit so that people would NOT THINK I was the Vig.

THIS GAME I HAVE BEEN ALL BUT CLAIMING GOLLUM, PRAISING HIS ACTIONS, SHOWING HOW THEY WOULD MAKE SENSE FROM MY POV, ETC.

THIS IS STUPID BTW.

ITS THE SAME FUCKING GAMBIT.

WIFOM PEOPLE INTO DISBELIEVING SOMETHING THAT YOU ARE.

NICE TRY THOUGH.

[VasudeVa]

^^That's Fate-scum right there. Only Fate-Gollum, in THIS ENTIRE PLAYLIST would even

think

about No-Killing this Day Phase because he's in SUCH a good position to do so. Scum will GLADLY do anything they can get away with. No player would even ATTEMPT to kill Fate this day phase given inHim's claim.

And Not-Daykilling today if Fate isn't Gollum is just mindblowingly retarded.

And the fact that there are no deadbodies anywhere JUST PROVES THAT.

Also: this stupid defense about self-meta about me not being able to read you IN A GAME WHERE YOU REPLACED IN AT 3P LYLO, wins this game's Worst Defense Award.

It's not just dumb, it's SCUMB.

[VasudeVa]

ITT: Lynch Gollum, get Mordor Tom.

I'm done replying. I need some fucking weed.

[VasudeVa]

If I were you, I'd go DK wraith right now. He's obv redscum.

Last chance Fate. Make it count.

[VasudeVa]

Why the fuck would Gollum target you, obv-not mordor since like D1, huh? He wants the One ring. Mordor has the one ring. You have no way out here, nope.

ALSO: Schizo Gollum starring Fate/RC Hydra makes PERFECT sense. RC/SMEAGOL, ARE YOU THERE? TALK TO US. YOU DON'T NEED THE RING. ALSO, WE ARE TIRED OF TALKING TO GOLLUM. HE SMELLS LIKE FISH.

[VasudeVa]

Oh and since I would call myself out on dodging your other point:

There's still no confirmation that Gollum needs the one Ring to win, it was speculation that became a little to permanent due to making sense (and also making it easier on town's mind, downgrading Gollum to harmless third party who wants to shoot scum).

So he could have targeted me for being obvtown and sane, and trying to shoot Town today (as he very well might have been trying to do with that Glork shot) to make it easier on himself once redscum are gone and there are less town mislynches to burn through.

ORRR that Glork shot was you trying to get a better grip on Town. He was the only one left who was at a commanding position + He could have had a ring, regardless.

Oh joy, setup speculation as defense that doesn't make sense with flavor at all. You're flailing at this point. Plus scum points since you're backing down, not TOWN RAGEING that I've oh so often seen you do.

Plz DK Wraith at your nearest convenience.

---

My face when reading rewq's posts:

[VasudeVa]

Vote: Wraith

If you're looking for asshole retards, btw, look at the Fate/RC combo who almost ruined SAIII via their hydra topic!

---

Edge, dear, that's not how I remember it. It's more like....

Gollum:

SHOUT SHOUT SHOUT. CLAIM MOTHERFUCKERS I NEED TO FIND WHO HAS THE RI-EERR I MEAN, JUST FUCKING CLAIM. BECAUSE I CAN SHOUT SO HARD, YOU MUST BELIEVE ME MINDLESS SHEEP. THATS RIGHT, I'M LOOKING AT YOU.

LegoVas:

Alright look, you're probably Gollum. It makes perfect sense based from my experience with you and a plethora of other evidence! The fact that there are no-daykills, with YOU as seraph-protected obvious not-Mordor, ONLY makes sense with you being Gollum Edge and there is simply no other explanation for the lack of kills D4!

Gollum:

LOLOLOLOLLLLLZ OMG U SO FUNNY VAS. U STUPID. U SO STUPID, U STUPID. UR GOLLUM LOLOLOLZZZ I SHOUT HARDER, I MUST BE RIGHT.

LegoVas:

What the fuck? Explain the lack of kills then! You're Gambiting. Go strangle one of them Mordor heathens before we lynch you, alright? You lose, you suck. I have the upper hand here, my argument is flawless!

Gollum:

OMG STFU LEGOVAS. EVEN IF UR HOT AND SEXY WITH LONG BLOND HAIR AND ALL OTHER ELVEN SEXYNESS, UR STILL STUPID BECAUSE I SAY SO AND I CAN SHOUT HARD. THAT ADDS CREDIBILITY! COME ON, MINDLESS SHEEP. THIS GUY IS GOLLUM LOLOLOOLLZZZ

LegoVas:

You're not as good as you think you are, scum. I read through your plan. Your EVIL plan to attain political power beyond your excessive shouting. You've been anti-council as fuck. You are an alleged VT who attracted the Seraph-Knight protect AND the one-shot Town motivate. If THAT isn't anti-council enough, You're hungry for blood, SCREAMING for the hammer. You have bad intentions scum, bad bad bad intentions and I, as Legovas, ultrahotandsexy, WILL NOT LET YOU DO SO.

Gollum:

OH YEAH. WELL, YOUR STILL STUPID. I HAVE EXPERIENCED A VERY SMALL NONREPRESENTATIVE SAMPLE OF YOUR META OF STUPIDITY. THEREFORE YOU MUST ALWAYS BE STUPID. ALSO IN A RECENT GAME I REPLACED IN AT 3P LYLO, YOU DIDN'T READ ME PROPERLY. THEREFORE, YOU CANT READ ME HERE EITHER.

Legovas:

HAH! Evil fiend, if you call this pathetic little smear campaign 'defense', then you must be stupid. That does not defend you from the evidence openly available in this thread!

Gollum:

OH YEAH WELL, I'LL WRITE A BAD SUMMARY OF EVENTS AND CALLING YOU STUPID THERE TOO!

Legovas:

Well, I shall write a better one with TRUTH and JUSTICE!

Gollum:

TRUTH...AND JUSTICE? NOOOO!!! MY WEAKNESS! MY INCESSANT SHOUTING CANNOT DEFEND FROM SUCH!! AWESOME LEGOVAS, I AM AT YOUR MERCY. PLEASE! DONT GIVE ME TRUTH AND JUSTICE.

Legovas:

I am a merciful elf. If you would strangle a certain RingWraith in this council.. You know, the one who thinks he's at Mordor Comicon.

RingWraith(Cosplaying as Denethor):

wtf vaz, u r scum! lolz, u say sum bad stuf. btw, i claim deathmiller.

Legovas:

Strangle him! Do it, homosexual!

Gollum:

YESS, LEGOVAS. I SHALL.

*strangling scene, wraith flips obvscum*

Gollum:

WILL YOU LET ME LIVE OH AWESOME LEGOVAS?

Legovas:

No. OBVCOUNCIL ASSEMBLE! We shall DESTROY this filthy heathen. READY? COUNCIL....CRUUSSSHHH

Dekes' rushes at gollum, swing at him with a vote.

Dekes:

DIEE GOLLUM! Vote: Edge.

Gollum:

UUAAAHHHH, THE PAIN. ONE VOTE. I SHALL SCREAM AT YOU FOR VOTING ME. SCREAAAAAMMM

Dekes:

Go Katy!

Katy:

Hiiyaaa! Vote: Edge

Gollum:

ARGHHH. TWOO VOTES. I CAN FIGHT THIS OFF. COME GUYS, ITS ME FATE! IM ALWAYS TOWN.

Nero Cain:

Your treachery has gone far enough! Lol. Vote: Edge

Gollum:

THREE VOTES. URGH. MY VOTE THRESHOLD IS GETTING CRITICALLY LOW. I MUST MUSTER ALL MY POWERS TO STOP THIS! HAVE YOU GUYS FORGOTTEN THAT LEGOVAS IS AN IDIOT? I REPEATED IT SOO MANY TIMES IN THREAD NOW. IT MUST BE TRUE!

rewq:

Vote:Vas....errr, I mean, Vote: Edge

Mariyta:

I shall enter too! Vote: Edge (butistill<3edge)

Gollum:

NOOOO. L-1. NO.. VAS..DON'T DO THIS...WE ARE BUDDIES RIGHT? COME, REMEMBER ALL THE TIMES WE SPENT TOGETHER.

Legovas

: There is no mercy for scum like you. HAMMER ARROW WITH THE POWER OF JUSTICE. Vote: Edge

Gollum:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo.....
WTF GUYS. IM TOWN.

Bilbo

: Edge has been lynched. He was Gollum, Day Serial killer, Ringhunter.

The End.

----

AND THATS HOW IT HAPPENED. YOU CANT FIGHT THE TRUTH FATE.

YOU CANT.

[VasudeVa]

Oh look, 11:11. Make a wish!

I wish.......fate would grow some balls and strangle wraith.

*crosses fingers* >w<

[VasudeVa]

Psst, Fate. This is the part where you go 'Truth, and justice? NOOOOO'etc.etc.

Follow the script man, sheesh.

[VasudeVa]

Again with the improv! If you do that, I'll cast RC in the role of Evil Gollum.

Come on, man. We rehearsed this. You can do it! I have to make sure the straight play version works before I get on with the musical.

[VasudeVa]

I AM NOT GOLLUM. WTF.

I AM LEGOVAS. HAMMERER OF SCUM, DEFENDER OF JUSTICE.

[VasudeVa]

LEGOVAS IS NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR INTEREST.

[VasudeVa]

Oh wait, we're serious again? *puts on serious face*

I think I said this before but alright. I find his defense to be very plausible. He claimed backup, he showed that he really was pissed with you when you claimed VT, and some of his things added up. Of course, I thought A2R was town so I may be wrong here too. Although it's really more like I'd rather see dead Wraith before I see dead Dekes, kind of thing.

Seriously Fate. AWMafia, we fucking caught scum claiming death miller. Easiest scum we ever caught. Why Dekes over Wraith?

[VasudeVa]

Also I'd like people to answer this very simple questionaire:

If I were as awesome as Legovas, able to track even the fastest of Nazgul, who would I track?

Failure to answer will be sexily frowned upon. (You simply can't remove sexy, nonono.)

[VasudeVa]

LEGOVAS WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR ANSWER REGARDLESS.

I LIKE BEING DIRECTED BY SCUM, SUE ME.

[VasudeVa]

Correction: Edge is ANTI-town. Not protown.

Pro-town "VT"s don't attract seraph night protects and one shot motivates on the

same

fucking night by fakeclaiming cop. Don't affirm the delusion now! Don't let him think he's protown for a second, because it'll all be Invitational 11 all over again. Guess who lost that game?

In other news: Wraith still needs dead.

[VasudeVa]

Shut the fuck up VV, guess who HELPED lose that game by being perfect fucking mislynch fodder, then coming in at the end and saying "zomg it was so obvvv" SHUT THE FUCK UP.

I'll do whatever the hell I want as VT, THATS THE FUCKING POINT.

Yeah, I helped lose that game, I'll give you that. Although, YOU lost that game with your senseless confirmation bias/sitewide fail social climbing yes sir. Not me, no. It's kinda funny how you can scream confirmation bias at me when you are confirmation bias incarnate.

Wraith still needs dead. Why no one else is voting for Wraith is beyond me.

[VasudeVa]

For the people still not voting for Wraith, let us look at Wraith's useful contributions in thread!

1. Nothing.

Now then, let us take a look at his not-useful contributions!

1. Everything he has done so far.
2. WIFOMClaiming some shit about palantirs on DEAD SCUM, therefore cannot be confirmed.
3. Stupid deathmiller self-speculation on a nonBastardmod game.

[VasudeVa]

Addn: 4. his WIFOM on 'IF I DIE SCUM GET EMPOWERED' <-survivalism! YAY! I seriously doubt this, btw. Scum already seem powerful enough, especially with the BulletproofRolecop.

I do think that he's being honest about one thing: He probably had SOME connection to Isengard in the same way that, you know. Mordor was allies with Isengard in the books/movie.

[VasudeVa]

Wraith, Do what LL says and full claim your role. Be specific as you can.

[VasudeVa]

I said this before, jackass, I thought Jenni's action was possibly a Felbeast summoning poison kill because of the weird kill flavor we haven't seen before. (Poison kill: Target X N2, X dies N3.)

VV has botched his tracker claim, was likely a scum joat with a one-shot track who used it on a lurker-PR suspect. VV knew I was fakeclaiming cop long before anyone else did because he knew my investigation was false. Glork knew my claim was fake because of him being a buddy with VV and NOT because he roleblocked me. VV tried to push an Edge lynch as an ALTERNATIVE TO HIS "OBVOBV" WRAITHLYNCH citing 'scum being scum' and ignoring all pro-town motivations to hunt red scum.

Here comes the Fate(tm) confirmation bias that DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL. /applause

Yes, because Mordor scum has a Bulletproofrolecop/Roleblocker/JoAt/???? all in one combo, as opposed to Isengard's shitty one-governor/strongman/vanguard/roleblocker.

[VasudeVa]

Fuck. Wraith's 'Fakeclaim' is too retarded to be a scum fakeclaim.

Zwet/Sly didn't flip anything that mentions Palantirs. Ringbearers flip ringbearer when they die. Why would scum claim something about some people when it contradicts certain flips?

....

Unvote

[VasudeVa]

rewq is acting like obvscum today. I'm getting bad vibes on what he's choosing to contribute on, and I'm getting a malicious vibe on his timings. Am I the only one seeing this?

Vote: Rewq

[VasudeVa]

I'm not talking about the quicktopic anymore. I've been warned.

Bullshit. In the event that you are Town and telling the truth, You have done no wrong to be warranted a slight nudge. People talk about contents of QTs all the fucking time.

This is awfully convenient, isn't it? I take back what I said. From 'too retarded to be a scum fakeclaim' it has pokevolved to 'too retarded to be 'too retarded to be a scum fakeclaim' '.

Vote: Wraith

[VasudeVa]

jenniwren hammers. No discussion.

@Mod: Special 'DEADLINE IS NEAR WTF R U DOING' Prod on jenni plx.

[VasudeVa]

Bad player or no, his story has more holes than Spongebob Squarepants.

[VasudeVa]

You fucking retard Edge. You should have told us that shit WHEN WRAITH CLAIMED. We were doubting his claim because we knew JACK SHIT about it. Now you're telling me that you actually knew about it all along and COULD HAVE confirmed it?

Protown my ass.

[VasudeVa]

Oh no no no no mishterh Edge. You ain't pushing the blame on us for your own stupidity. If you had actually claimed that EARLIER we would have more time to discuss/discern what the fuck to do with him.

Bad day play or not, Wraith is an idiot. Bad play is to be

expected

.

What didn't stand with me was the fact that no one knew anything about any palantirs in this game, which made it VERY likely that it's a scum smokescreen(Known theme game scum tactic: Claim shit that can't be confirmed and drown town in WIFOM. Got me a solid victory against Vi and co.).

You ACTUALLY had a fucking palantir, and you didn't tell us shit for god knows what reason. And now you're pushing the blame on us?

Horrible. Just horrible.

---

To answer your question so you won't go pissy pants on me again:
InHim quickhammer is meh. InHim is nigh unreadable anywhere because he never posts. I do think that there is a good chance that he's Boromir since you're Gollum and all.

[VasudeVa]

InHim is nigh unreadable anywhere because he never posts.

OH LOOKIE HERE INHIM IS NIGH UNREADABLE.
BUT NO REFERENCE TO YOUR "TRACK" RESULT WHICH SHOULD MAKE HIS CLAIM ALL THE MORE BELIEVABLE.

YOU DONT HAVE A ROLE PM THAT SAYS LEGOLAS, TRACKER, BECAUSE YOU SURE AIN'T ACTING LIKE IT.

AND YOUR POSTS EARLIER?

YOU USED SET-UP SPECULATION TO DEFEND YOURSELF.

THE VERY SAME DEFENSE YOU ACCUSED ME OF BEING SCUMMY FOR EARLIER.

AND REMEMBER WHEN YOU TRIED TO LYNCH SK OVER REDSCUM TODAY?

YOU'RE OBVIOUS VV. OBVIOUS.

What setup speculation? There is no setup speculation, just setup/claim clarifications which led me to suspecting Wraith.

My suspicions OF you is PR-action speculation, NOT setup speculation. Big difference Fate. Stop spewing bullshit.

In fact, I'll show you an idiot proof samples that clearly illustrates the difference of the three:

Setup speculation: "OHh, Frodo has the one ring! And and uhhh...Gandalf is a JOAT! And..uhh..there is this mechanic about rings..."
PR-action speculation: "Wait so the trackerdude targeted to this guy...who targeted this girl....but...this guy is claiming that he..didn't target this dude?"
Setup/claim clarifications: "Soo...you have this mirror thingie..that allows you to talk to people? are there other peoples with this mirror...thingie?"

[VasudeVa]

Nah, I think I'm going to go with who I think is scum not who scum thinks is other scum.

Thx for the tips tho.

[VasudeVa]

I have no reason to follow you Mr. Antitown who thinks he's protown. Therefore, I won't.

End of discussion.

P-edit:

WHAT "LEAD YOU" TO SUSPECTING WRAITH WAS DEATHMILLER CLAIMING REMEMBER? NOT WHAT YOU WERE ASKING HIM ABOUT THE "MIRROR THINGIE"

I think it was the 'death miller' part. All death miller need be lynched ASAP.

P-edit dos:

How can you buy VV's claim at all? READ MY CASE ON VV. HIs claim does not match up with his actions AT FUCKING ALL

It probably has something to do with your case being stupid.

[VasudeVa]

VV choose who you want to track. I think Edge or Rewq make fine targets, but if Edge is one of two buddies left, he isn't going anywhere. I wouldn't even put it past him to try to set up his buddy to get caught so he looks like confirmed town tomorrow.

Edge is not Mordor though. He's either stupid yelling anti-town Town or Gollum.

[VasudeVa]

His supects and reasonings for "suspecting Wraith" don't match up AT ALL. He's trying to pass ti off as "ooooh Fate caused this mislynch because he didnt claim palantir earlier, because I was voting him due to that." WHEN HE WAS VOTING HIM DUE TO DEATHMILLER SPECULATION AND SCREAMING FOR HIS LYNCH.

YOU DIDNT RESPOND TO THIS. CALLING IT STUPID ISN'T A DEFENSE.

YOU LOSE VV. YOU WON'T GET OUT OF THIS ALIVE NO MATTER HOW UPHILL I HAVE TO FIGHT FOR YOUR LYNCH TOMORROW.

I had multiple reasons on lynching Wraith. The death miller part was the starting point, then I read up on him.

You are so stupid. mith calling you a moron was simply spot on.

[VasudeVa]

Mariyta, don't let Fate's stupidity infect you now!

As a watcher, the only target that make sense for you are people who you think are possible nightkills.

You don't watch scum as a watcher, you watch obvTown. FFS.

VV IF YOU ARE TOWN, YOU ARE BEING FUCKING STUPID. CONFIRMING YOUR ABILITY TONIGHT IS THE BEST USE OF NIGHT ACTIONS. YOU ARE NOT IN DANGER OF DYING BEING CONFIRMED, BECAUSE OF JENNI AND KATY. CONFIRMING YOU IS THE BEST MOVE TONIGHT.

FATE YOU ARE BEING FUCKING STUPID. I'D RATHER CATCH SCUM THAN NOT GET LYNCHED.

So fuck you and your confirmation bias. I have a chance of catching scum tonight and I'm NOT going to fucking waste it kissing your ass.

[VasudeVa]

Actually, Mariyta's being pretty scummy too as of late. Now that I think of it. ARGH.

TOO MANY SCUM IN THIS GAME.

[VasudeVa]

Oh, I guess I missed that.

I'm not so sure on saying who I'll target though, since I think there are two redscum left. And they'll just switch up nightkill duties.

But for the sake of it, I'll be targetting rewq.

I may or may not follow up on that, depending on how I feel about my target action.

[VasudeVa]

Trying to outWIFOM the scumteam here, work with me.

[VasudeVa]

If you idiots REALLY think for a fucking second that I'm scum who guessed what jenniwren did N2, then hats off for this ridiculous Town.

ME BEING A JOAT IS RIDICULOUS. BASELESS. FUCKING. SPECULATION. WITH. NO. FUCKING. EVIDENCE. (Unless you think Fate's stupidity is Evidence. Which it isn't.)

That ALONE should be ENOUGH to fucking confirm me. But nononoo, we are mindless sheep! We listen to Fate's stupidity because he is shouting! Vas needs to waste his night action to confirm his trackerness!

I am NOT the fucking lynch for tommorow and you motherfucking idiots thinking that is GRINDING ON ME.

Fuck it.

No fucking claims.

I will track who I think is scum tonight and if you morons noose me tommorow, it's not my fucking fault.

[VasudeVa]

Fate, that's just stupid. They fucking flipped, therefore we know. We DIDN'T know that they were vanguard/strongman etc. And we didn't shout 'ZWET IS THE FUCKING VANGUARD' to catch their scummy arses. Stop spewing your bullshit.

You know what baseless speculation in a Theme game gets us? Games like AWMafia. I learned my lesson there.

So clam it. Fuck you.

I'm nailing scum tonight and if your stupid confirmation bias overpowers logic, then by all means yell all you want tomorrow to lynch me and lose Town this game.

[VasudeVa]

Besides, since why would Plum/Andy give Mordor both Gimli AND Legolas as fakeclaims? That's just bad design right there.

You're right, baseless speculation that "THERE CANT BE A SCUM JOAT" SHOULDN'T prevent us from lynching your scummy ass.

IF LYNCHING YOU LOSES TOWN THE GAME, YOU WILL CONFIRM YOUR TARGET TONIGHT. BUT YOU WONT. YOU REFUSE TO DO SO. BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT TOWN. IM DONE TALKING TO YOU.

You just won't fucking stop won't you? You didn't hit a nail in the head, in the sense that you caught on to something and pissed me off.

You just fucking pissed me off with your stupidity.

I am NOT confirming myself AGAIN when I am ALREADY confirmed by Jenni.

[VasudeVa]

Oh my god. You're still going at it. Even with all the stupid attacks that don't make sense, stupid baseless accusation, stupid speculations that magically appeared out of thin air, stupid WIFOM, stupid everything else.... versus all the evidence that points to me Town, evidence from flipped scum attacking me D2(which you YOURSELF are using, btw. Glork attacked me too.), evidence with jenni's action confirmation...evidence with fakeclaims...evidence everywhere ELSE

....you're still going at it.

Wow. Confirmation bias incarnate, indeed!

[VasudeVa]

I'll stop replying now because Fate's stupidity has sapped my strength.

Good night all. (Or in my case, Good morning! Hollaaah~)

[VasudeVa]

HAVING A CONFIRMED TOWNIE IS FUCKING USELESS GIVEN THE SCUM WINCON.

WE ARE NOT FIGHTING FOR LYLO. WE ARE FIGHTING TO FUCKING CATCH SCUM. AND ME NOT CLAIMING MY FUCKING ACTION IS THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT BECAUSE THERE ARE PROBABLY 2 FUCKING MORDOR LEFT. 2 MORDORS THAT CAN EASILY SWITCH NIGHT KILLS.

WE'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS GOD.

[VasudeVa]

Rewq targetted no one, btw. Sooo, are we cleaning house today or are we cleaning house today?

Vote: Dekes

[VasudeVa]

SuperTown:

LegoVas
Mariyta
Katy
jenniwren

MaayybeTown:

InHim

NotMordor:

Edge

Today's lynches:

rewq
Dekes
Nero Cain
Locke

[VasudeVa]

I was trying to fool scum into ordering their NK with rewq via insult sword fighting with Edge.

Although meh. No deaths last night is putting me off. . I'm not sure what to think of it.

[VasudeVa]

I KNEW IT! rewq was acting obvscum yesterday. *AIR GUITAR*

Although, bah. I hate rolling tracker. I rolled tracker a grand total of 3 times now. I target scum and I get

nothing

. Most useless investigative role ever. Whoever invented this shitty role, GREAT JOB. *sarcasm* >.>.

Dekes is still the logical lynch today, btw. Although, I think I'll be rereading Glork+Mariyta interactions soon. Edge might be onto something.

This game is starting to make lesser and lesser sense. >.>. Frodo flipped RINGBEARER. How the hell did the One Ring turn out to be a real role?

[VasudeVa]

Edge, Eye of Sauron-Voyeur is a bit..wrong, given the kill flavors.

Saruman was Eaten by a Fellbeast. This is clearly Nazgul/Balrog-ish. Then again, I have no idea what the eff Fellbeasts are. (Haven't gotten past LOTR Book 1 yet... Lost it in a flood. T_T).

Did the Mouth of Sauron have a 'Bled to death'-ish flavor? Because that would really explain a lot.

Mordor Mafia:
WeirdRa/Sauron - Flavor unknown.
Glork/Mouth: Bled to death
????/????: Eaten by a Nazgul
rewq: No kill flavor, probably.

(Pretty sure Spy was fireballed in the faise by Saruman, for the last unexplained death flavor.)

No-deaths last night might have been the last Mordor targetting rewq with their nightkill. In some games, if you target your Traitor with your nightkill, you recruit them instead of killing them.

[VasudeVa]

EBWOP
????/????: Eaten by a

Nazgul

Fellbeast

[VasudeVa]

Mari, you know more about LOTR than I do.

Care to comment on my MouthofSauron-KillFlavor theory? Is it as plausible as I think it is?

[VasudeVa]

inHim, I take it you disagree with my #2177?

PS: Bled to death may be Mouth of Sauron stabbity stab stab stabbing our Townies.

[VasudeVa]

A votecount would be nice.

Edge, why Mari over Dekes? Aren't we cleaning house today? Voyeur is retarded on a scumteam. "Oh hey, So..uhh that guy we tried to kill last night was docprotected. Soo.....yeah..." plus flavor stuff don't fit with Eye of Sauron shtuff.

(Gollum Voyeur makes sense...but eh, Gollum doesn't need a fkng voyeur too. Untracable DKs is pretty powerful.)

Dekes is the lynch today no matter how you put it.

(Here comes the VV-Mari scumteam speculation! OMG!)

[VasudeVa]

I can't seem to find Mariyta's results with her claim. Need to check on something.

Someone remind me please.

[VasudeVa]

I confirm Mariyta in the same way that she confirms me and we all know that we have 1 redscum remaining. Don't see why we are lynching her. Hell, lynching Nero is better than lynching Mariyta.

In the meantime, Dekes claimed something that cannot be confirmed by Edge. More Dekes votes.

For Gollum it's a LL/inHim/Edge. I just realized that my case on Edge(No DKs D4 as a gambit capitalizing inHim's Seraph Knight claim) also works on inHim.

[VasudeVa]

Traitors are basically Mafiosos flying solo. They may know about who their partners are or they may not. Sometimes they can be recruited into the scumteam, sometimes they can't. Too many variants, but that's the basic idea.

rewq's Traitorness is probably to balance WeirdRa's BulletproofRolecoptitude.

I seriously doubt that there is another redscum.

[VasudeVa]

Just a thought about Mari that is giving me a hang-up, though: she seemed to subtly defend Rewq in her ISO 24, but spent most of the third page of her ISO attacking him. If she is Mordor-scum, at what point would she have known Rewq was a traitor? And if she knew in 24, why turn around and attack him so much (especially given that Mordor-Mari also bussed Weird)? If Mordor-Mari didn't know, then that makes more sense. (And if she didn't know in 24, why defend him as Mordor-Mari?)

This just doesn't work. The idea of a traitor is that the rest of the scumteam don't know about his identity. They may know about his existence though. Mari subtly defending rewq as redscum is very unlikely.

[VasudeVa]

Fate, do you even know what a Traitor is?

I just read up on your accusations, and they don't make any sense especially given rewq's flip.

[VasudeVa]

Edge, the next question would be: How the hell does your case on Mariyta make sense? (Since you're implying connections between them and all, and well making associative tells on a traitor flip may be your dumbest case yet!)

@Mariyta: Correct. Traitors are essentially are made to be weaker than Goons. (That wiki is outdated though. I've seen cop investigated traitors t cop a get guilty.)

Traitors are

weak

. Traitors are prone to accibusses that makes the bus worthless upon flip(Everyone will go. 'Oh, that guy's a traitor. I guess player X's megapush on this scum's lynch is null!) They can't coordinate with their buddies. They can be even be nightkilled by their buddies if they are not careful. They are essentially Mafia Goons flying blind.

Rewq's traitoriness actually balances Sauron's bulletproof rolecopiness. Rewq's flip doesn't show anything about him being a PR too.

[VasudeVa]

Because inHim is Gollum?

(Also jenni got an investigation behind her she's cool.)

Katy, who is your top Gollum suspect?

[VasudeVa]

Fuck. If you are Town, you suck Nero Cain. I had you as not-Gollum for a while now.

Now all that's gone. Why the hell did you have to make this more difficult? D=<

[VasudeVa]

I wanted Conf-TOWN jenni to hammer, not anyone else because everyone is suspect of being Gollum. Gawd.

[VasudeVa]

I think that's a claim. XD. Good sport, Dekes. . Buh-bye mordor scum.

---

It would have been extra epic if jenni was the shield maiden girl too.

Stupid Tom Bombadil/Gollum ruining the epic end!

[VasudeVa]

Boo. Bad scum.

Come on man! Avenge thy scumbuddies! Gollum was the main perpretrator of your loss!

Help town get rid of Gollum, for VENGEANCE.

[VasudeVa]

Yeah, I could...but would town really deserve to win?

Think about it. First, Gollum viscously strangled your buddy Glork who was impossible to lynch. And then he strangled poor little rewq! POOR. INNOCENT. LITTLE. REWQ. Flying alone, without buddies...with a Mordor wincon... strangled lifeless.

Think about it man! You can at least get rid of the guy who foiled your plans!

[VasudeVa]

Welp, the good thing about this is Nero Cain just put a big sign on his head that says 'STRANGLE ME' if he's not Gollum.

If he isn't strangled tomorrow, then we can easily just make scummy people hammer him and lynch the hammerer the next day.

I do think that if Gollum indeed has gotten the ring and has an anti-Town wincon, the mod will announce accordingly.

[VasudeVa]

Come on Dekes! Before the mod locks the thread! Help us find Gollum! Whatever info you have, give it!

I mean he strangled this guy:


Cute little tarsier...gleefully holding it's branch. STRANGLED DEAD. I mean, you know. Check out rewq's wiki! Poor little guy, lost his first game as Mafia...never even won once(no offense rewq.)

You HAVE to help us Dekes! Do it for rewq!

[VasudeVa]

Nero/Edge/inHim are good shots.

With Mordor out of the way, I'd like to guess that the last mason is LL. Did I get that right?

[VasudeVa]

That leaves rewq, Nero, VV, Mariyta, Dekes and Locke Lamora, one of whom is the other mason and it's no secret that my top suspect is Locke. I'm not going to comment on anyone else because ... duh. But I really want us to lynch correctly today.

VV, you did not get that right. Nero, want to claim now?

Uhm, no. They wanted to distance each other remember?

[VasudeVa]

"I TOLD YOU SO! ZOMG I SAID WE SHOULD LYNCH DEKES OVER MARI! TOWN LEADER FTW!

^^Edge's version of humble pie.

[VasudeVa]

That leaves rewq, Nero, VV, Mariyta, Dekes and Locke Lamora, one of whom is the other mason and it's no secret that my top suspect is Locke. I'm not going to comment on anyone else because ... duh. But I really want us to lynch correctly today.

VV, you did not get that right. Nero, want to claim now?

Uhm, no. They wanted to distance each other remember?

I don't think she'd throw her buddy out there as a lynch option, though.

P-edit: Good point, jenni.

She didn't even vote LL her 'top suspect'. It's pretty textbook scum distancing, which was why I was saying LL was Town. If I were Dekes, I would have killed Locke, no question. No risk of doc protects too.

[VasudeVa]

Damn, shoulda thought of that, VV...LL, are you the last mason?

...*wonders what the nights are good for now*

Dekes! You're still here! Have you thought about avenging rewq yet? Come on man, where are your villanous instincts!? You're the Witch-King! Where's the hate in your system? Your thirst for vengeance? To think that a scrawny corrupted hobbit who smells like fish overthrown Mordor almost single handedly.

Plus...rewq...poor rewq...T_T

[VasudeVa]

This mason fishing is making me wonder if I might have been right about 4-4 with Rewq tipping the favor to 5-4 either way...after all, that is what the ring did...

Mason, don't claim, don't even hint at who you are yet.

Dekes would not have claimed like that pre-reveal if there was another Mordor-scum. Jus' sayin.

[VasudeVa]

@Dekes: Now that's just mean.

(Although I think I had that coming.)

--

@Edge: I'm thinking the best plan is to speedlynch him before anyone has a chance to strangle anyone.

Although, that'll be difficult to coordinate. >.>.

[VasudeVa]

Edge gets to hammer Nero Cain tomorrow then. (Bah at being wrong with LL though. D: )

You better be online. (Although with Fate, I don't doubt it. .)

[VasudeVa]

BTW, I fully redact my statements on Edge being anti-Town in this game. Good job.

(You really can't blame me for thinking that though.)

[VasudeVa]

It was N2 and Spy didn't die, so no reveal in case of Town PR(which is the only thing that trackers are useful for >.>). What doesn't make sense there? (That tunneling was me thinking you were a real VT/Gollum doing some retarded stunt.)

Although on D4, I outed myself to say that inHim didn't kill N3 and but it was purely for the reasons of attracting the nightkill.

[VasudeVa]

Edge #2295 makes super duper sense. *thumbs up, 5 stars etc.*

---

"real VT?Gollum" what stunt though? I was clearly trying to figure out the game... and you said "ZOMG YOU USIN CAPS FATE YOU IS ANTI-TOWN!" ...

N2 it was: SpyreX said "I SHOT SOMEONE IT DIDNT WORK"

The stunt was cop claiming as a VT/Gollum gambiting with inHim's protection. I would simply not let such antitown behavior/SK-possible gambits pass.

Sleeping on it, I had nightmares of AWMafia haunting me again. And I saw it as sign! A sign from the gods that Edge is Town! (But I had to keep an eye on you regardless, since I .)

Although now that you actually are the mason, your actions make super duper sense now.

On Spy's shot, Glork flipped roleblocker before Spy claimed so jenni as scumRB is impossible thus a TownPR.

[VasudeVa]

EBWOP:

cop claiming as a VT

VT claiming cop

[VasudeVa]

I think you're reading me wrong. I'm not mad that you didn't come out and say "HEY LOOK GUYS! LOOK WHAT JENNI WAS DOIN LSAT NIGHT!!" I'm mad you voted the you did when it seemed as though Spy had been confffd town or such. I mean, even a "Jenni, you haven't posted shit for awhile, what do you think of the Glork-Spy connections?" fish would've sufficed given the kills and how they sway.

Any results I get barring obv nightkill tracks are null and are used to confirm actions. It's just how trackers work. Trust me, I've rolled tracker THRICE now.

In DEFCON Mafia, Andy outed softclaimed his track result before calling me in to hydra. Guess what happened in that game?

I didn't want to assume, nor did I want to out anyone important with something as silly as a non-nightkill track. Even with 1 death, my results meant jack shit given the number of players.

[VasudeVa]

Nero, that's just pure bull and you're just kissing Fate's ass now. Katy and Edge did were very convincing in their distancing, if anyone, ANYONE caught onto that, it won't be you. (No offense Nero.)

Yep, you're Gollum alright.

[VasudeVa]

Wait what?

Fate how did you claim mason when you aren't the mason?

Otherwise, EPIC EPIC EPIC EPIC GAME ANDY AND PLUM. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3. This is hands down the best game I've ever played in this site so far. So memorable!

[VasudeVa]

Memorable stuff about this game:

1. Anti-Town CAPS WAR with Fate. This is the only way I can ever hope to read Fate. Fate, your play style is far too different from mine since you are high tier CAPS, and I always find teh CAPS tough to read. (I skim over your posts 90% of the time, with my sense detector detecting the important stuff. It gets lost in translation sometimes.). Still, that was plenty of fun, despite being annoying. (Plus it gave me reason to do some petty bickering with Gilbert Gottfriend.). Sorry about that! It's one of the way I get into the game because pure analysis is boring. We need drama! Action! Suspense~!

2. When Katy claimed the scum alt wincon, I was SCARED. REALLY SCARED. We were doing so well and I knew that being screwed over by the Alternate wincon was very possible given that chain link of kills. @.@. D4 was so tense that my emotions were just going haywire whenever I post(which led to the CAPS WAR which had a soothing effect of calming me down by making fun of Edge.). In my head, we had too many scummy people and two nights to find two scum. I was ballistic then, I thought we had to lynch properly twice or lose with the nagging suspicion that Gollum was a hostile third party. @.@

3. It's pretty rare for me to be this emotionally invested AND get some reads right. XD. I know that one of my weaknesses is if I'm not thinking clearly, I fudge up and go full on tunnel mode. I called Katscum, rewqscum, Dekesscum, zwetscum and had some pretty strong reads. This is one of my better played Town games.

4. Almost guessing the setup is awesome. 8D. I knew enough about Andy and Plum to guess stuff.

5. Clean sweep! Huh? Wraith-who? Oh, you mean the fifth member of Mordor who flips Town?

---

PS. I'd love a LegoVas Title. Muhahahah. (I don't get the VuVuzela joke that seems to be going around. >.>. What is a vuvuzela?)

[VasudeVa]

Man, I just realized that D4 should not have been tense. Curse me for not noticing that Gollum got the ring from Glork earlier. @.@.

Fate, I'm not THAT noisy. I'm only that noisy if: you're around/you were around/you're going to enter the game at some point in the near future. <3. If I am a Vuvuzela(wiki'd. >.> I think I get it.), you're the Vuvuzel-er.

(There's a very off color joke here somewhere.)

[VasudeVa]

Hahahaha. Oh. Haha. I love reading the QTs. Minas Ithil and Frodo's QTs are funneh. Who's that lonely Minas Ithil there? And rewq fakeclaiming Merry in a QT titled 'Frodo and the One Ring' is hilarious. Where did Wraith get his BS about Orthanc and Minas Mogul?

@Andy: LEGOVAS WANTED LEGOVAS. D:< (Thanks though. )

[VasudeVa]

For the record, making that post quoted in the nom was super fun. 8D. Getting Fate riled up was awesome.

[VasudeVa]

The masons had daytalk? *reading through that now.*

[VasudeVa]

Relevant, btw. Flight of the Conchords + LOTR

I still don't get the Palantir stuff. I think I'm missing something here. Why is there only one post when both scumteams seem to know stuff about it.