Newbie 976 - Game Over.

[DavidParker]

VOTE: Nobody Special

Decided when game was still in confirmation I'd random vote for him! (It's not really a random vote, more just a "hi, look at the mess I made in our other game", but that can't be discussed here oops)

So, OMGUS away!

Also, I'm sure NS will vouch that I really don't deserve the title of SE :p

[DavidParker]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gingerrr

Australia just got their first ranga prime minister (in somewhat "scummy" circumstances), so I currently am convinced all redheads are evil.

[DavidParker]

EDIT:

Unvote

VOTE: Gingerrr

[DavidParker]

1) Are you having fun yet? Not a huge amount, but I know it will come.

2) Chocolate or vanilla? Vanilla icecream/milkshakes, otherwise chocolate

3) How many Mafia games have you played (here or elsewhere)?

4) Lynch all Liars? OBVIOUSLY!!!! (nah, i think lying can be a strategy used by town and scum, just it is anti-town when a townie does it)

5) Math or Sports? If this was school or sports, maybe school. but it's not. So, sports.

6) Lynch all Lurkers? Nope

7) What do you think of the RVS? good way to start off the game, although i never "randomly" vote i just do a joke/bs vote.

[DavidParker]

I'll be somewhat AWOL this weekend as well. HOpefully some discussion can be had today/tomorrow ;/

[DavidParker]

Well, it's possilbe to win mafia no matter your alignment without lying, but it can be more fun to lie for the individual. Creating a fake persona, or just making the game a bit more confusing is by its nature: fun. Obviously, if everyone lied the game would be a bit of shambles, so it's a fairly selfish thing to do. Regardless, I won't plan on lying in this game for once. (For those unaware I claimed cop as a VT in my last game with NS )

Friend seems to have come charging in and won a lot of town points.

Seeing as I voted gingerr because I have a problem with red heads, and gingerr has now been replaced...

VOTE: startransmission

I had a big rant at the IC is another game of mine about how useless he was (day 1 quick lynch, and day 2 QUICKER lynch (about 6-7 posts of discussion) and he was the IC amonst these incompetent clowns. Then day 3, he doesn't even post), so I think voting on you right now to get you to talk is where my vote is most useful! (btw not claiming you are useless, just saying I want to avoid that )

[DavidParker]

Sorry

[DavidParker]

@NS: I think his very analytical style of play and the way he is very open with his opinions - ie: doesn't hide the fact he doesn't like your questions, gives me an initial town vibe from him. He hasn't been lurking/bandwagoning or any clear scum tells yet, and has created useful discussion for scum hunting.

[DavidParker]

Unvote: startransmission

I haven't scum hunted simply put. A few other games of mine are at a "crucial" stage where my activity and careful analysis is a "necessity" so I have slacked a bit in this game just because it's in very early stages.

My biggest suspect is currently Koch:
First post - OMGUS vote, putting gandalf on L-2. While it's obviously not a consistent or reliable statistic, I remember someone saying in another game according to bandwagon, most often 3rd on bandwagon = scum.
2nd - Explanation of his OMGUS, somewhat explains it.
3rd - THis one really seems scummy to me and is what has probably got me voting him. He's almost admitting to being against pro-town discussion and unvotes and states he will fence sit (yes i know, i'm somewhat guilty of this too, well the second part)
4th - More possible scum slipups in response to ST's questions [quote="ST]@Koch- In your opening post you didn't refer to the fact that your vote was putting Gandalf at L-2, but in your response to his question it sounds like you were aware. It's a small detail, but were you specifically aware at the time of your vote how many votes Gandalf already had? And what aggressiveness are you referring to?[/quote]

His response, he practically backpeddles and says it was only on the back of his mind. His response to NS's questions are no-tells.

Since this post he didn't post for a while, this is either a no-tell (there is legitimate reason behind his non-posting) or a scum-tell (active-lurking). Can't say right now.

VOTE: Koch

My vote was still on ST because I had simply forgot to put it there. To me it was no different to not having voted (considering there was no bandwagon on ST)

[DavidParker]

I'm awaiting to see the outcome of another game NS is in before I decide whether to tunnel him or not :p /jokes

[DavidParker]

I think you bring up a good case this early against him and support your mission to further pressure him. With that said, I'm waiting for koch to reply to my post.

The other thing stopping me from voting him is I know he's currently in like 10+ games so devoting time to analyzing everything in acute detail and scum-hunting isn't really feasible. This early into the game a few posts to show you are here and active and involved may be an explanation for that. I think any case at page 4 on day 1 isn't going to be hole proof, you are never going to have a sound case as to why someone is scum this early. People just need to be pressured and discussion continued so you can get one. So continue on, friend!

[DavidParker]

Oh, in absent-mindedness I didn't respond to your questions regarding to my posts.

I'm a bit too lazy to multi-quote right now soo....

Q1: Not it's not all. In fact I'm not really basing much at all on that, just it was an interesting statistic that I believed had some merit in bringing up.
Q2: Yes, I was satisfied with his response.
Q3: It could come from an overwhelmed townie who's new, but just as well could come from scum, and I believed it to be a comment worth addressing and which really stood out to me. Maybe I'm over analyzing it.
Q4: Initially he says "i was comfortable with it because it did not put you in any real risk of being lynched" etc etc, implying he put him at L-2 on purpose. He later says it was only "at the back of his mind" and he "wasnt really thinking about it" when he had stated he had intended to pressure the player by putting another vote on him early. Seemed to contradict himself.

[DavidParker]

I do think that at this point in the game, nobody is going to be able to get away with a quicklynch.

Nobody can get away with one at any point...

FoS: gandalf

[DavidParker]

I will not be voting NS on day 1 regardless of whether he is scum or not upon him winning me my either newbie game!

Awaiting on koch's reply.... (or a sub)

[DavidParker]

I will not be voting NS on day 1 regardless of whether he is scum or not upon him winning me my either newbie game!

Awaiting on koch's reply.... (or a sub)

OK can you please stop mentioning other games that are going on, in this game thread? It is slightly annoying and why would you not vote for him if you were sure of him being scum???

The game is completed.

And there is no plausible way that we will be presented with evidence on day 1 of NS being scum.

[DavidParker]

Elaborate??? Point 1 - newbie 965. Town Win. NS put the final vote on scum in LYLO.

Point 2 - In this game setup (And almost any game setup), you will never be given 100% proof of a player being scum on day 1. You can be presented evidence that points to a player likely being scum, but never complete proof. And with NS (he was IC in that game), I highly doubt he will even make a big enough slip to be highly-probable scum. With that said, I'm not against a NS lynch, just saying I won't be the one to support it! Common courteousy, think of that what you will.

[DavidParker]

I

will

not be voting NS on day 1 regardless of whether he is scum or not upon him winning me my either newbie game!

Awaiting on koch's reply.... (or a sub)

OK can you please stop mentioning other games that are going on, in this game thread? It is slightly annoying and why would you not vote for him if you were sure of him being scum???

The game is completed.

And there is no plausible way that we will be presented with evidence on day 1 of NS being scum.

Elaborate??? Point 1 - newbie 965. Town Win. NS put the final vote on scum in LYLO.

Point 2 - In this game setup (And almost any game setup), you will never be given 100% proof of a player being scum on day 1. You can be presented evidence that points to a player likely being scum, but never complete proof. And with NS (he was IC in that game), I highly doubt he will even make a big enough slip to be highly-probable scum. With that said, I'm not against a NS lynch, just saying I won't be the one to support it! Common courteousy, think of that what you will.

I am sorry, but VOTE: DavidParker. He sidestepped the question IMO. I get that there will not be 100% proof on day 1, but I asked why you would not vote for him if you were sure he was a baddie. I don't care if NS is the Grand Master of Mafia, slip-ups happen to everyone, especially when you are not able to fully devote time to the game.

Ugh, my Mafia Paranoia is starting to kick in.

well, if he make a huge slip-up there are 7 other players (apart from me and him) who can lynch him for it. if it's a slipup that confirms he's scum with almost certainty, everyone will see it and my vote won't be needed. Yes, this is purely silliness, I will be pressuing NS like anyone else, this is a different game, I just wanted to be nice after he won anohter game for me. Ignoring him for a day seemed like a worthwhile way :p

think of it what you want.

[DavidParker]

Ns, you aren't helping :/

[DavidParker]

Alright, I have dedicated tonight and a few hours to reading through these game and posting actual input! So here's this game's turn.

NS vs Friend: Well it's quite clear who has "come out on top" if we are to declare a winner in this dual. I think Friend has caught NS out on a few points, and NS has admitted recently Friend has some good points. I think NS has been forced to backpeddle a bit and be a bit defensive, a position he's maybe not used to in these newbie games. It's actually been very useful to get a read on him. Right now, I'm leaning scum, but not convinced. As for Friend, well very pro-town for obvious reasons, has been at the heart of all discussion, if he's scum, he's a very capable and confident scum who must imagine he can talk himself out of everyone and plans on leading us into our doom. (A good check for a cop if we have one :/)

Early gandalf wagon: Well, not even a wagon. Gandalf freaks out (okay it wasnt a freak out ) at L-2 then NS unvotes. Koch justifies his vote perfectly well, there was no real problem with it.

The aspen pressure: well gets under pressure from NS for posting just after being talked about?!?!? What a no-tell... no real substance, but still if you want to pressure him based on it, that's fine, just can't really be used as a scum-tell. Good point to start probing him with though to some extent. OMGUS case on Friend is iffy, but really just comes more off as a noob-town, or a no-tell.

@Startransmission: Didn't notice this point regarding something I said before,

For the record, I have not been (in my recollection) in a game with DavidParker before. I have one other game going on currently, and he is not in it. I would not be inactive, nor would a game ever have successive quicklynches while I am the IC in it. Just saying. Furthermore, in 30 something games I have never seen a scenario as described by DavidParker in his post.

Not sure how much I'm allowed to say, but just check my current games if your further interested on my point.

So, who do I find scummy??

Well, I think from reading the thread and based on posts/evidence alone and people defending themself, the most probable scum is NS+gandalf

Biggest town read is probably from koch. Friend strikes me as just a bit too confident to safely write off as town :p

[DavidParker]

between me and koch apparently, because i would really claim my scum partner as my ONLY town read.. (yes, wifom intended, wifom is really somewhat overused and sometimes necessary to point out -_- )

koch's defences of himself and reasons for his votes at time have just given me a vibe that they really seem genuine and he has constantly explained himself very well when questioned.

[DavidParker]

Are you serious gandalf?? You played ONE marathon with me. Well, you could say two, but the second marathon was over before I even posted.

The one marathon you played with me, town won because of my hammer ON DAY 1.

[DavidParker]

apparently i'm voting for my biggest town read...

unvote

[DavidParker]

Umm, NS someone in another game just linked me to a wiki-link regarding the RIDICULOUS argument you just made.

Here, found it: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Too_Townie

As stated, it falls into the category of WIFOM.. Seem to be digging a bigger hole here.

[DavidParker]

Yeah, but I read some of the others, and you have a tendency to initiate WIFOM. I didn't say I was certain of it, I was saying that it was mildly suspicious that he would not bother to explain his ONLY town read.

That was the ONLY marathon I played. So either get your facts right or stop lying.

[DavidParker]

here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=14560

[DavidParker]

No defence?

@Gandalf: Here's the post you're talking about, I'm guessing (the only one that fits):

clearly i'm scum for hammering and claiming someone who just claimed cop though.

don't worry, i've already tied my own noose.

From that game after I quick-hammered scum on day 1. (I wasn't sure he was scum at that point, but he did give off a VERY scummy vibe, he fake-claimed cop and PRETENDED he had been quick lynched when it was blatantly obvious he only had 2 votes on him)

[DavidParker]

I promised I wouldn't vote him, and hammering him seems the worst :/
surely someone else can!

Also, what is your problem with probing other players and starting other possible bandwagons? We still have 10 days and can always come back to NS...

[DavidParker]

@gandalf: you are mistaking "stupidity" for me using a non-game-related reason to not vote for NS (not even being entirely serious)

Well, I don't want to be deemed a "liar" by coming out and voting for NS as well!

Although, I wasn't being entirely serious when saying I wouldn't vote him for non-game-related reasons.

I think you are mistaking my unwillingness to hammer/vote him for game-related reasons.

Since it seems people are content, (and this will give me some breathing room in between my 10 or so games, /jk)

vote: NS

You scum will make me believe he is most definitely town, with a tiny tiny chance he bussed you as some pre-determined strat.

Also, you flipping scum, doesn't really directly imply friend is scum... more to come on that tomorrow (would rather wait to see night kill). As said, friend is very consistent.

[DavidParker]

wow editting various points made that post not make as much sense as I had hoped. The part after my vote is referring to friend's alignment based on this lynch.

[DavidParker]

So, what are you NS?

[DavidParker]

By me contradicting myself?

I do that a bit :/

[DavidParker]

Also, what is your problem with probing other players and starting other possible bandwagons? We still have 10 days and can always come back to NS...

We have other days to probe other players. Ditching a strong BW gives scum time and opportunity to move the focus away from where it should've been.

Ugh what? You're the one who encouraged the end of day phase. Yeah I caved and voted him, but I had been getting a vibe leaning scum from him for a while, and just hadn't acted on it yet.

[DavidParker]

Post 194.

[DavidParker]

ST looking scummier now. He tried to put the blame on me as soon as I hammer'd (almost as if expecting the town flip), by pointing out how I dealt with pressure, I'm not denying my contradiction, but after his lurking, and his reaction to the town flip (assuming it will be one after NS said that) i'm looking at ST tomorrow. Still leaning town on Friend for his consistency, but we'll see.

[DavidParker]

But really, you didn't take long to start pushing your next mislynch ST.. Twilight phase and already trying to sow the seeds for the next mis lynch?

[DavidParker]

Agree.

@ST: 1) Well considering I just hammer'd NS, and NS stated he is still a VT, I think it's a safe assumption that we have just mislynched. 2) Mine.

[DavidParker]

I agree, ST seems very defensive and he seems very jumpy right now.. Friend I'll need some convincing as his scum partner.

[DavidParker]

Never mind, this phase isn't one to start making accusations, I'm just seeing what kind of a reaction I can get from you now. With that said, tomorrow is a new day, and we will see where it takes us.

Mod Note: This is a test of my ability to edit. Please ignore for game purposes.

[DavidParker]

As stated, the ending to the day definitely made me believe that ST is possible scum.

Vote: Startransmission

Will come back with more analysis later today when I have more time.

[DavidParker]

@ST: Just one thing that bothered me. You reference the lack of night kill and doctor saving someone and say you have a guess... To me this sounds almost like role fishing, also, as a town player, publicly stating who you think is the doctor is very anti-town play. I hope you are talking about a guess on who was saved (I see a couple who it's quite possible), but the fact they were saved means scum/doctor might think that this person is a PR (aka cop) so I think speculations on who was saved etc, and ESPECIALLY the identity of town PR's is something that should be kept to yourself.

[DavidParker]

i don't like you gandalf.

you're lucky the worldcup final is on to distract me.

[DavidParker]

Activity seems to be dwindling, which is sad. Especially sad because people haven't even used their votes. I guess I'm partially to blame. I was expecting this ST vs Accusers to actually get some information flowing, but instead people have decided to just refuse to post regarding it (ST, refusing to post his cases etc), which to me is anti-town behaviour, and border-line scummy, and has earned my vote. As a town player, and especially as an IC, I see no reason for you not to explain why Aspen is scummy, even without someone asking you.. Blatantly refusing is just.. Wow.

Vote: Startransmission

Oh wait, now i feel dumb. I'm already voting for you.

[DavidParker]

@Framm: I think at this point in the game, it's better to request the mod to prod/replace him than to vote for him. Unless he is active lurking and purposely avoiding discussion he doesn't deserve a vote really. If he is doing that, then he will continue to do that likely because 1 vote doesn't really make a lurker talk.

so,

@MOD:

Prod theperson plz!?

[DavidParker]

Also, I've always found people who decide to vote for lurkers, when there are people who have been scummy in other ways (and are actively posting, so a response can be obtained from them), as a scummy tactic. Why didn't you question ST ? I'm not saying you should vote for him, but hes definitely had some scummy moments and the fact you ignore the current ST pressure/issue, really suggests to me a big probability of a ST/Framm scum team. Almost every game I've been in, scum are the ones who vote for someone who is lurking thinking it will get them town points, when 9 times out of 10 it's a meaningless jesture.

[DavidParker]

You asked a question regarding "game theory" more than anything. You didn't accuse him of anything or ask him anything related to his behaviour.

I don't think he suggested anywhere in that post of his (I admit i reread it a few times, it still doesn't make complete sense) is him suggesting that the no-nightkill suggests that either of us are town.

[DavidParker]

ok, thanks for clarifying

[DavidParker]

I think now is a better time than any if a real cop is out there to counter claim. Don't see any reason not to.

In the even of a non-counter claim, I think we have to decide between a gandalf lynch and an aspen lynch.

[DavidParker]

Hmm, we have a problem (but a problem I like, because I'm basically confirmed townie either way):

Cop is a safe claim for scum if they have no roleblocker. With no night kill last night, they know we have a doctor. So they know the game setup at this point. (This is assuming nightkill was submitted, which is a logical assumption based on scum playing to their win condition)

Situation 1) ST is the cop. He is telling the truth about his check (I would have personally checked Friend, but that's just me, I like to check people "in charge"), and is the cop. Of the other 3 on the NS wagon, at least 1 is scum. Probably gandalf.

Situation 2) ST is scum. This still seems far more likely. As scum have no roleblocker, cop is a safeclaim. Not only is it a safeclaim, it's a PR claim into an invulnerable position. Since we have a doctor, there is an explanation for you not being night killed on subsequent nights. And you will obviously claim you have been roleblocked over and over again. Now, how am i town if he is scum? Because he outed me as his night 1 check. Outing your scum buddy would be suicide, if town decide not to lynch him. Okay, this is a bit WIFOMy, but my initial reaction was to believe his cop claim (because I am infact town-aligned), but upon thinking about it, it's far more likely he is scum, buddying up to me, and knows he has made a safe claim.

Due, to your claim doing you more harm than good, I think it was a terrible claim to make if you really are the cop. For that reason my vote stands. At bare minimum, if we don't lynch you, doctor should NOT protect you tonight (imo), unless we catch a scum in gandalf/friend/aspen.

[DavidParker]

Edit

: By "outing your scum buddy would be suicide" I am referring to him claiming his scum buddy was his check on night 1 and was revealed as town-aligned. Claiming to have checked your scum buddy and found him to be scum (essentially tunneling) would maybe be a viable, but risky, plan.

[DavidParker]

How is it a 2/3 shot? that's assuming you believe ST, friend...

Right now, the only person who would have any reason to believe him is scum... Your buddying up to him has been duly noted (should he flip town or scum)

We are in mylo tomorrow with a mislynch today (assuming doctor doesn't get any more protects), why are you beliving ANYONE right now??? Much less you, who has been critical of so much on day 1... Frankly, he strikes me more as opportunistic scum than our cop. In fact, I see no reason to claim cop quite yet when he has only had 1 check on me.

In fact, both of you haven't even posted a solid case against gandalf.


Unless something changes, I am going to be pushing strongly for an ST lynch today.

[DavidParker]

You can choose to be skeptical and un-trusting, while not voting for him and probing/pressuring other players. I guess you can say you did that to a certain extent, so, why is gandalf scummier than aspen/koch?

Also, I've been in other games where "experienced" players have stated it's better to lynch a claimed cop (who is a big scum suspect) before lylo, not leave them around for lylo.

If ST is scum, and we mislynch today, we go into mylo (assuming doc fail) and ST will just feed us a guilty read. Then, lylo just becomes a mess, of WIFOM and mind-games and people having no idea who to trust.

You're right, if we lynch gandalf and he flips roleblocker, we are looking great. But that's a gamble I'd rather not take.

[DavidParker]

To answer your question, I'd find it scummy because you believed the cop (knowing he's cop, ie: maybe a semi-slipup), and can just roleblock him from now on, when he hasn't had any real information, except one town read. You also used your buddying to attempt to push a mislynch on gandalf with your promised 2/3 odds! Sure, it appears town to bandwagon a claimed PR (and someone you know is a PR) into a lynch, but nah.

Also, if we lynch ST and he does, perchance, flip town. We are not in the worst position. We still have a doctor and a confirmed town-aligned player. And before grammar nazi's get onto me for my pseudo-claim, I am aware those 2 may be the same person and am not claiming VT.

[DavidParker]

Yeah, I'd love an explanation from IC/Experienced players regarding non-counter claimed PR's and when it's okay to lynch them.

My personal view on non-counter claimed PR:
Day 1 - it's a bad idea.. Unless they have played super scummy, and you know 100% they can't be kept around for lylo, then maybe. Also, I'd be more likely to day 1 kill someone who claimed doctor than cop.
Day 2 - If scum was lynched day 1, i'd be happy to let the claimed PR live still. Depends if any other PR's have claimed or been night killed (ie: do scum know the setup?). If scum don't know setup yet, theres a 50% chance a scum claiming a PR will get called out by the real PR..
Day 2 - following a day 1 mislynch, now, at this point i think the scummiest player is the best lynch, if that person is a PR, lynch away. One exception, they are a cop with a guilty find. Well, at this point you have to see who is scummier out of the two. I'd still be willing to lynch cop, since even if hes tellin truth, he will die that night or be roleblocked.
Day 3 - following 2 mislynches. Now in lylo, obvious move for a cop with results, is to claim. I'd be ready to believe a cop claim here, depending on whether or not the scum know the setup by this point (ie: has doctor been nightkilled?), same thing applies for a doctor claim, i'd be ready to believe it if scum don't know the game setup.

To me ST, you currently fall into a bad category by meeting 2 criteria:
1) You appear to be the scummiest player (to me)
2) Scum know the setup of the game at this point (ie: know what PR is a safeclaim, if any)

You will definitely be roleblocked tonight is my guess, and doctor should NOT protect you. Then if you are around in lylo (or mylo) things will get messy.

Until my concerns are further addressed, my vote is staying on ST. I will be re-looking over thread, for other possible scums, I haven't got a solid read on gandalf or aspen that I can recall. So if some kind of scum pairing that doesn't involve ST shows itself I might reconsider my vote..

[DavidParker]

Because what if gandalf flips town (that 1/3 chance that he does according to u...) AND ST is the cop... he will get roleblocked obviously tonight (seeing as we have a doctor) so no results tomorrow.

Then I can assure you the scum will go after ST tomorrow and they will likely succeed, because I for one will still find ST to be the scummiest.

[DavidParker]

not necessarily, maybe for you since i've basically been town-cleared at this point.

but i have one extra suspect. A combination of Framm/Friend/theperson/aspen is surely possible

anyways, i still need to reread, i dont have any real pro-town vibes which is unusual and a problem.

[DavidParker]

Alright, I'm currently satisfied with ST's explanations of his actions and my neutral read on him (yes I said it was scummy before, I wanted to pressure him further to test his cop claim) has started to lean towards a town-read on him. Also, just looking at the vote-count reassures this, as I was previously accusing Friend of being a possible scum partner or ST's, but to bandwagon him so soon when no one but these two are on the wagon seems unlikely. Anyways, I agree for now of the possible scum suspects, gandalf does seem the most scummy.

Vote: Gandalf

(L-2)

[DavidParker]

Well, I'm not so much interested in his views, but I'm more using the fact we just got a sub as an excuse to take a small break in my commitment to this game (as my real-life commitments are a bit overwhelming now) :p

Might be a little inactive next couple days but will still be around.

@Gandalf: What do you think of ST's claim?

[DavidParker]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ox1de

I am voting for him to get a read on him. Aspen did not post very much and when he did it was very (let us say) lacking in content. I get that he was playing the Newbie card, but the best way to play is to jump right in, and post. (coming from someone who has a more stay in the background and watch style of play, unless I am positive about something.)

I think that Gandalf could definitely be one of the scum, but I would rather use as much of the time left as possible, before lynching anyone at this moment.

@ST: Just out of curiosity, what about me do you find scummy? And before this is used against me, I am just wondering, so that I know if I will have to change playstyles for this site.

This struck me as a VERY scummy post.

1) Votes ox1de. That in itself is not scummy assuming he posted his case... However, he claimed to not have a case but wanted to get a read.. WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT??? Now ox1de knows you don't even find him scummy (maybe you found his predecessor a bit scummy), but he should feel comfortable that your vote is not one that will stay.
2) Asks why ST thinks he's scummy. I never like people who do this.. It's a bit of a newb-tell, but at the same time I think newb-scum are more likely to worry about seeming scummy than newb-town. It's a point that a newb-scum may overreact to. It's not a matter of playstyle (well maybe it is, I've been told in almost every game so far, I have a scummy playstyle, and so far all my completed games I have flipped town), but the fact you would change your playstyle because someone finds you scummy? That is anti-town behaviour/thought-process right now. You should just try to be genuine.
3) His case on Aspen.. Basically is just summed up by "aspen lurked and didn't say anything"...

There was no scum-hunting in his post. His vote was counter-productive and anti-town simply beacuse he said he was doing it to get a read on ox1de.. If you want a read on ox1de, ask him questions such as why do you think so-and-so is scummy. What do you think of the cop claim? What do you think of friend getting a town read from everyone? etc. But a simple vote does nothing.

Vote: framm

[DavidParker]

He said you GOT a town read from everyone, AKA he's asking 0x1de what he thinks about everyone thinking you're scum.

DavidParker: Is that your only evidence? Framm has a lot of posts, do you feel that one post constitutes a vote?

It only takes one scummy post "slip-up" for me to think someone deserves a vote. A scum can play a perfect game, but one post can give them away. I remember there was some quote about that somewhere.

[DavidParker]

Well, if we lynch say, ox1de, and he flips scum, and there is no doctor, that would presumably force the scum to nightkill ST as they have no roleblocker and we can afford a mislynch to see if ST is lying about his cop claim.

Basically, if we lynch a goon today, and we are in a setup with no roleblocker, then the optimal scum play would be to kill the claimed cop as we can afford a mislynch to test if he's telling the truth. Only problem is if ST is scum, and left alive, he will just feed us bad results, ie: claim he checked the person who was night killed. Regardless, assuming we lynch a mafioso today, I'd support keeping ST alive. As lynching a mafioso is not guaranteed, I'm reluctant to get off his wagon. Also, I know it's a huge stretch, but you should really still be considering that I may be scum with Friend... I seem to have gone completely under the radar, which does make me happy, but I'm just pointing out the scenario that you are missing as I assume someone will bring it up eventually.

Also, continued suspicion should be expected from scum pairings on each other, as they know each other are scum so it's easier to find scum tells, and that makes them seem more pro-town if/when their scum partner gets lynched.. I really think it's more a no-tell, and while it may make those possible combinations less likely, they are still definitely likely.

[DavidParker]

Edit: That's meant to say scum with ST*

[DavidParker]

Ugh no I wasn't assuming that. I am 99% sure that there is a doctor in this game.

I am bringing it up because everyone is overlooking it and I assume it would come up anyways. And seeing as this is a "newbie" game in an effort to "teach" players I am trying to help them by not overlooking a possible scenario.

[DavidParker]

Oh wow, /brainfart.

[DavidParker]

Vote: ox1de

best place to find scum and good information lynch. Gandalf wagon grew too fast for me.

Also, @razorstar: like, i don't mean to tell you why an opinion regarding a read is wrong.. But you have a neutral read on me which makes me think you missed something. ST Cop claimed he investigated me and it came back as town. So the only way I am scum is if ST is scum. And even if ST is scum, i'm not guaranteed to be scum.

[DavidParker]

sure, why not..

[DavidParker]

Oh dear, razorstar, I should ask you the same thing, do you want me to think you are scum??

Gandalf wagon: You unvote at L-1 claiming that you don't want him at L-1..
Ox1de wagon: You hammer without a claim or any reason for your vote (Regardless of his flip, this appears scummy, even if he is scum, you have definitely not won town-points for hammering without a claim). Why did you quick-hammer here and freak out before on the gandalf wagon???

*Prepares for an "oh i didn't realise it was at L-1 excuse"*

[DavidParker]

We need information. Yes, I agree.

Information comes in the form of a claim. Not as a hammer. Claim first. Hammer second. (assuming we still want to hammer)

Risk??? What need is there for risk? All we have to do is wait for a claim, so it's a risk-free decision (ie: we aren't lynching the doctor). This isn't risk-taking, this is just not thinking.

ITS A BAD IDEA BECAUSE IT DOESNT HURT (ONLY HELPS) TO GET A CLAIM FROM HIM FIRST.

/end rant

[DavidParker]

anyways if ox1de flips town, doctor plz protect me, as that makes it very likely ST is scum.

[DavidParker]

Unfortunately he couldn't protect himself it seems...

So, what did your magic-8 ball tell you ST?

That you are indeed scum?

[DavidParker]

Oh, just a reminder, this is MYLO (mislynch > LOSE) so don't throw around votes...

[DavidParker]

I thought it was a good idea... I realize now that I wasn't thinking all that clearly, and well I think I just boned us.

AtE is your course of action to survive today huh?

[DavidParker]

Hint: that means stop, don't continue to AtE.

[DavidParker]

And now you're just apologizing.. When you should have moved on and started scum-hunting.. oh dear.

This is why I'm not happy with ST still being alive:

He has claimed cop, and if he is scum, he knows scum was/is a safe claim. It would also be great to know who Friend protected on night 1 (confirmed town), so I'll go re-read his posts to see who has avoided his scum lists (strangely, ST is there on remembering). I have a feeling that maybe Friend posted a strong town read on someone who he protected and got killed for it, revealing he was the doctor. Because, I honestly thought i was going to die, as it was "possible" that Friend was scum, whereas, I'm almost confirmed town (except in the extreme scenario where I'm scum with ST).

[DavidParker]

Yeah, I agree on Framm.

Right now a Gandalf/RazorStar scum-team seems quite possible. Although i am still suspicious about both theperson and ST. The cop claim was just done at an inopportune time, and has made him useless as a cop. If he was at L-1 claiming cop would have been different, because he's forced into a claim, but claiming before he's near-lynch... Just makes himself useless...

Gandalf is mostly scummy because of RazorStar. (See above post)

@TOWN

:
Luckily this is mylo, not lylo, so we can be a little more care-free with votes, but know that a mislynch means we lose. Putting someone on 2 votes who is not scum, and no scum on the bandwagon basically means we will lose, because both scum can put the hammer on. However, that's less likely in mylo. And, I know it's redundant, but I'm not ready to throw around my vote, so

FoS:RazorStar AND ST

[DavidParker]

So you haven't read the thread properly, that's anti-town behavior, bordering on scummy.

Here, I'll spoon-feed you the information.

ST claimed cop, and said he investigated me and got a town result. The only way I can be scum is if ST is lying, and I am his scum buddy. Even if ST is lying and is scum, he may have just fed you guys a true town read, and his scum buddy is elsewhere.

So even if you think I'm scum, you should lynch ST today, not myself.

[DavidParker]

I don't care who you were asking it was a dumb question, with an answer that wasn't even game-related, but more mechanics based (unless ST is a VT)

[DavidParker]

I didn't think for a second he had a result. In fact, if he had claimed one I would have immediately accused him of being scum for getting one. I was merely asking for the sake of it really. As soon as there was a doctor, that means there's a roleblocker (if there's a cop) so a cop will never get a result. Alternatively, he is scum claiming cop, and knows to say he was roleblocked (the obvious thing to do)

@ST: Can you please restate fully why you chose to investigate me night 1?

Also, 10 pages for each day isn't that bad.. The only bad thing is 1 or 2 players lurking/being replaced/not contributing. I feel as if the past few days have gone well with the exception of RazorStar's foolish hammer.

With that said, I'm not going to rush into anything, as I, myself, have no "strong" feelings about scum in any players. And, as stated, with Friend flipping doctor, I'm going to assume he protected Framm when he succeeded. He seems to have hinted at it, although I still want to be cautious as if he was a doctor, that is essentially giving away to the scum that he is the doctor (assuming they have a brain), while not telling us he is the doctor.. Sure, he claimed it was his gut, but it seems scum read through that (assuming he did protect framm).

Definitely time to go back and see what happened on day 1 with regard to bandwagons and iso some people. Will probably have quesitons for people and some iso-information in the next couple of days here and hope others can do something similar to help.

[DavidParker]

I haven't finished (or even started) my re-read/isos yet, but I just saw a new post of yours.. I'd just like to post my disapproval of that last question you posted Framm. It's basically telling scum who to leave alive (if we don't lynch them today). I think it might be best to let our votes do the talking.

[DavidParker]

Just wanted to see if you would have said anything different, like a slip up or something. but whatever. I'm sure there is a third option there, (ST is town, lying about cop to protect himself) but that's just unlikely. Which is what I was wondering about, but it didn't seem like you were considering it David. That's all.

The fact you are bringing this up makes me find you scummier. Until he claims VT, I am going to act solely under the assumption that he is a cop or scum. In the event that he claims VT later, I will act under the assumption he is a VT or scum.

[DavidParker]

Have you considered the possibility that the mod is a bastard-mod and I'm actually a multi-shot nk-immune unlynchable double-voting miller vig?

[DavidParker]

My point was that you shouldn't consider things that aren't worth considering.

[DavidParker]

Vote: Gandalf

[DavidParker]

I'm not sure, but i'm leaning towards him right now.

[DavidParker]

he's at L-2, so i wouldn't rush into changing your vote, because if it was a razorstar/ST scum team or something, they could hammer him, and we lose. (or even a me/st scum team)

[DavidParker]

lol? Why are you even bringing such points up? Are you referring to someone in particular?

[DavidParker]

Unvote

until replacement.

[DavidParker]

@Aranneas: You do realize that our doctor had a successful protect night 1 (Friend - Doctor)? You do realize that on day 2, Friend openly protected Framm and said he was almost sure Framm was town (without coming out as doctor, although if he did successfully protect framm, i'm sure scum realized this when Friend protected Framm for no reason).

As our doctor got a confirmed-town, but we don't know who that is, how can you include the one person he defended as part of your scum-team???

As it stands, I believe ST's cop claim, and believe that 2/3 of RazorStar/You/ThePerson is scum.

[DavidParker]

Don't worry, you can now back peddle and say you no longer believe ST's scum claim.

In fact, why not just go and peg me/ST as the scum pair.

[DavidParker]

cop claim*

[DavidParker]

DavidParker, I'm pretty sure the person you're looking for is framm18.

Framm18 is town (gut feeling)

@ST: Framm 18 is town because that's the overwhelming feeling I get from him. If he was scum, I would be ridiculously surprised.

Yeah, it's mostly gut.

Just the fact that he didn't have any posts to back it up but he got an "overwhelming feeling" makes me think that this is so. He knew someone was town for sure. His town reads were: framm, ST (if claim is believed), himself, me, and DP. It's probably not DP (because I doubt mafia would NK him N1), and probably not me (he was just leaning town on me). It's probably not ST because he said it was 50/50, and himself...That's self explanatory. Of course it could be gandalf, and then Friend didn't want to put him on town because he didn't want to look suspicious. Then again he was trying to get gandalf lynched...Which I why I think it's framm18.

DP, did you find the same thing from looking back?

[DavidParker]

Sigh, I hate this feeling that I have a strong idea who the two scum are but knowing I won't live to see tomorrow because I'm confirm-town.

Anyways,

First scum is gandalf/Arraneus

Vote: Arraneus

I'll let the people in lylo work their magic in finding the last scum (hopefully) as I don't want to lead people in a wrong direction anyways, as I'm often wrong with these things.

[DavidParker]

meh gg. 2/3 of those were scum. I guessed wrong.

I based my vote on your continued fail logic

ie: "scum would leave me and ST alive tonight"..... when i'm a confirmed townie if we lynched scum today (unless we lynched st, who was scum)

my guess was razorstar/arraneas team but

theperson was too much of a mystery, and hadnt gotten a huge scummy read on him, whereas the other 2 were huge scum.

[DavidParker]

ST claimed cop. He claimed I was a VT from his investigations. Therefore, the only way I can be scum is if ST is lying scum, and I am his scum buddy. Even if he is scum, it's likely he could have claimed an actual townie was his investigation.

If we lynched scum (theperson/razorstar) today, there is only 1 scum left. Since there is only 1 scum left, I can no longer be scum. (since I am only scum if ST is scum).

I put you at L-1 because you had subbed into a very scummy slot and hadn't dont much to improve your situation and was ready to get things moving.

[DavidParker]

not much, as you can see i had already voted gandalf before u even subbed in. somethings can't be ignored once they are already there.