Newbie 976 - Game Over.

[Zorblag]

Vote Count 3.2

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

RazorStar: 1: Framm 18 (1)
gandalf5166: 1: RazorStar (3)

Not voting: DavidParker, gandalf5166, startransmission, theperson

With 6 players alive it takes 4 to lynch. Currently RazorStar would be lynched at deadline. Deadline is 11:00 PM EDT/8:00 PM PDT on Tuesday, August 3rd. Deadline Countdown.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[DavidParker]

Vote: Gandalf

[DavidParker]

I'm not sure, but i'm leaning towards him right now.

[Framm 18]

I am almost to the point that I am willing to lynch Gandalf even if he was the most confirmed townie.
I am trying not to use facts outside the game, but it is like he has chosen to totally ignore this game.

Ugh, I cannot stand blatant inactivity.

[DavidParker]

he's at L-2, so i wouldn't rush into changing your vote, because if it was a razorstar/ST scum team or something, they could hammer him, and we lose. (or even a me/st scum team)

[RazorStar]

Yeah I do tend to do that huh... well even though David is acting in a suspicious manner, at least he's not flat out ignoring what's going on and making the effort to prove and defend himself. So yeah, that's a marked improvement over just ignoring this game completely.

[DavidParker]

lol? Why are you even bringing such points up? Are you referring to someone in particular?

[RazorStar]

sorry, theperson made a post in the bottom of the last page, and I'm still figuring out this forum system.

[Zorblag]

Mod Note: Looking for a replacement for gandalf5166 now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[DavidParker]

Unvote

until replacement.

[Zorblag]

Mod Note: Aranneas replaces gandalf5166. Thank you Aranneas!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[startransmission]

Right now a Gandalf/RazorStar scum-team seems quite possible. Although i am still suspicious about both theperson and ST. The cop claim was just done at an inopportune time, and has made him useless as a cop. If he was at L-1 claiming cop would have been different, because he's forced into a claim, but claiming before he's near-lynch... Just makes himself useless...

I'll remind you that I was at L-1 yesterday before I claimed. I got it down to L-2, but it was becoming clear that revealing my role and my result was the best course of action. I feel strongly that scum was on the NS wagon. By revealing that I am the cop, and that you were town as well I would hopefully convince town that either Aspen or Gandalf was scum. Gandalf's behavior was cementing my suspicion for me, and I felt that narrowing down to two players that had a very high probability of one of which being scum was worth revealing my role. Especially with a doctor around. Forfeiting my ability to investigate was worth the chance of lynching scum... especially if the scum that was lynched was the RB.

Also consider how much value just one investigation has for town. When I die tonight you will be a confirmed townie for the rest of the game, or at least D4. That will be an enormous benefit for town during a crucial endgame. Far from useless. I could've tried to hide my role, and in some games as a cop I've successfully remained alive and didn't reveal my role until the last day. That's always nice, but it's a gamble. I could've been killed any night and offered town nothing. In this game I'm the IC, which is always a likely target for scum NK's. I was in a situation where my claim helped town and very possibly isolated scum. It was the right move.

@ST: Can you please restate fully why you chose to investigate me night 1?

Your bizarre play during D1. The contradictory statements/actions. The premature hammer. Acting like I was responsible for your vote and was trying to set up your lynch because of it. Misrepresenting me as "jumpy and defensive" for merely pointing out the obvious and expressing my surprise at the turn of events. Strongly feeling, after the NS flip, that at least one scum was on the wagon. I knew I was town, and I had a town read on Friend. Aspen and Gandalf were up in the air for me. So you were the natural choice.

And I'm glad that I did investigate you. Since then you have supported the lynch of an uncountered town PR claim, chose to only deal with hypothesis and potential scum buddies, and hopped on and off of wagons erratically. It seems that with almost every post of yours I have to remind myself that you are indeed town.

Vote: Araneas

Weclome to the game. I know this isn't a great way to welcome you, but I'm very sure you are scum. The fact is if you aren't scum then there was no mafia on the NS wagon, and that's unlikely. Combined with Gandalf's play during D2, including disappearing once the focus was on him- pretty much sells me. I'm still very interested in your perspective though.

[theperson]

Yeah, gandalf did leave you in a bit of a hole.

Anyway, I await your opinions, and hope if you're town that you can convince us so. I was kind of skeptical about basing scum on the NS wagon, sure it's something but I think town used it way too much in their scum hunting efforts. But now with gandalf's lurking, along with other stuff he's done, I am also pretty convinced you're scum.

I'm also looking forward to your perspective on ST's cop claim. This game would be much easier if we could get that sorted out.

ST's cop claim was the obvious thing to do in his situation whether he was scum with 2 goons or cop. So everyone else, don't say he's scum because it was bad play as cop, but ST also can't say that he's cop because it was good play as cop/bad play as scum. Plus that's WIFOM.

[Aranneas]

Ahola!

Finishing up my reread of the thread. Content approaching. Collision: imminent.

[Aranneas]

The content has landed. Please bear with me. There will be quotes involved; I will only be using them in reference and to further my analysis where needed.

0. Gandalf. I don't even really know how to go about this. From what I can observe, he and I are fundamentally different people; apparently so different that I can't actually fathom what he was trying to accomplish. All I can surmise is that his game here was driven by his inexperience; your mileage with this explanation may vary. All I can ask is that you try to judge my in-game status based on my own posts and not my predecessor's.

Corollary: His apparent difficulty in defending himself and providing logical arguments for his reasoning would have made him an easy target for the scum to wagon. However, the case against him now appears to be generally accepted, so we probably won't get much from going back and looking at those who drove it forward.

The rest of these are (sort of) alphabetical.

1. David Parker. Day 1 had me thinking scum. I am currently fairly confident in his towniness. Will provide specific reasoning if asked. Basically I like his analysis of the situation from day 2 on.
By extension of David Parker, I'm inclined to believe ST's cop claim. Also by the fact that no-one else has claimed cop yet.

2. Framm.

Spoiler: one large quote chain follows

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ox1de

I am voting for him to get a read on him. Aspen did not post very much and when he did it was very (let us say) lacking in content. I get that he was playing the Newbie card, but the best way to play is to jump right in, and post. (coming from someone who has a more stay in the background and watch style of play, unless I am positive about something.)

I think that Gandalf could definitely be one of the scum, but I would rather use as much of the time left as possible, before lynching anyone at this moment.

@ST: Just out of curiosity, what about me do you find scummy? And before this is used against me, I am just wondering, so that I know if I will have to change playstyles for this site.

This struck me as a VERY scummy post.

1) Votes ox1de. That in itself is not scummy assuming he posted his case... However, he claimed to not have a case but wanted to get a read.. WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT??? Now ox1de knows you don't even find him scummy (maybe you found his predecessor a bit scummy), but he should feel comfortable that your vote is not one that will stay.

Who said that it would not stay? What case can I give against him since he hasn't even said anything really???

2) Asks why ST thinks he's scummy. I never like people who do this.. It's a bit of a newb-tell, but at the same time I think newb-scum are more likely to worry about seeming scummy than newb-town. It's a point that a newb-scum may overreact to. It's not a matter of playstyle (well maybe it is, I've been told in almost every game so far, I have a scummy playstyle, and so far all my completed games I have flipped town), but the fact you would change your playstyle because someone finds you scummy? That is anti-town behaviour/thought-process right now. You should just try to be genuine.

Good to know. He is prodding about me, at least that is what it seems like. So I took the direct approach and asked him why. I am not a newb, I know how to play, just not on here. And no I would not just change it because someone finds me scummy, but I have read the scumtell part of the wiki and several of the scumtells are part of my style of play, so think what you will. Also, it was the second time, that he has indirectly accused either everybody or just me about being scummy, almost as if he really has not cleared anyone of suspicion. FYI: I would not have posted that question if I was scum, I knew very well that it could cause this reaction.

3) His case on Aspen.. Basically is just summed up by "aspen lurked and didn't say anything"...

Is there anything else to really say about his case, since that was all he did???

There was no scum-hunting in his post. His vote was counter-productive and anti-town simply beacuse he said he was doing it to get a read on ox1de.. If you want a read on ox1de, ask him questions such as why do you think so-and-so is scummy. What do you think of the cop claim? What do you think of friend getting a town read from everyone? etc. But a simple vote does nothing.

Vote: framm

Ox1de can you try and explain why your replacee was acting so suspiciously?

P.S. Thank you for at least having somewhat of a case, be it based on one post, but still at least it is more direct then ST's way of accusing me.

I can only surmise that this was never mentioned again because better targets were found. Ox1de's case was solid, and Framm made what looks to me like a very weak defense - no defense at all against what was said, in fact. He still, to date, has never returned to Ox1de's argument in any fashion. He rather tried to disparage the methods of ST, who never actually made an 'accusation' at all (he later commented on this exact fact).

3. RazorStar.

You should think what you want. I think we need information, and this is the best way to get it. So I'll take the risk here to drag the scum out later. In any case, I'm prepared to stick my neck out right now. If it does turn out he is scum we have a bit to go on, potential scum buddies, we can see whether ST's cop claim is true or not, and if gandalf is really a target to worry about. If he isn't it opens up another can of worms, but can ultimately bring us closer to the truth. At this point right now, it doesn't harm town to be aggressive here, at least that's what I think. Please tell me why you think it's a bad idea.

I thought it was a good idea... I realize now that I wasn't thinking all that clearly, and well I think I just boned us.

It's been pointed out before, but I'll take the opportunity to comment on it here. This vote was, in my view, the scummiest action of the game. There's really no excusing it unless your goal is to deny information to the town - quite contrary to the argument he makes in support of his actions. Additionally, next day backpedal comes with no explanation attached. This is, I would say, a good example of taking advantage of Gandalf as an easy target. He didn't really need to say much because people had someone with more history of questionable behaviour to go after.

General: The idea that the wagon on NS *must* have included scum. Why? The town was then - and, from what I can see thus far, continues to be - doing a perfectly good job of self-destructing with little direct assistance. It's a perfectly valid scum tactic to distance yourself from the lynch mob if it won't need your help in getting the job done. Anyone who's posited this idea, I challenge you to provide a reason why the scum would feel a need to endanger themselves on day 1 if they gain nothing by doing so.

Scumlist: RazorStar, Framm.

[DavidParker]

@Aranneas: You do realize that our doctor had a successful protect night 1 (Friend - Doctor)? You do realize that on day 2, Friend openly protected Framm and said he was almost sure Framm was town (without coming out as doctor, although if he did successfully protect framm, i'm sure scum realized this when Friend protected Framm for no reason).

As our doctor got a confirmed-town, but we don't know who that is, how can you include the one person he defended as part of your scum-team???

As it stands, I believe ST's cop claim, and believe that 2/3 of RazorStar/You/ThePerson is scum.

[Aranneas]

Eff. Figures I'd miss something on my first real post.

I'll be having another look at that. One min.

[DavidParker]

Don't worry, you can now back peddle and say you no longer believe ST's scum claim.

In fact, why not just go and peg me/ST as the scum pair.

[DavidParker]

cop claim*

[Aranneas]

Right. Because making assumptions that have no basis in reality is a wonderful way to play mafia.

[Aranneas]

EBWOP: I do still think you're town here, for the record. You have no reason to believe I simply missed that connection, so from your view you're perfectly right to continue pressuring.

I suggest the following: pressure Razor today. Keep pressuring me too if you actually have something to ask. I've come in at a disadvantage here, but I can't really dig myself out without any tools.

[Aranneas]

EPWOP2: I'm still not seeing it. I've looked through day 2 back to front several times and can't find a post where Friend defends Framm. Would you kindly share a link to what you've found?

[DavidParker]

DavidParker, I'm pretty sure the person you're looking for is framm18.

Framm18 is town (gut feeling)

@ST: Framm 18 is town because that's the overwhelming feeling I get from him. If he was scum, I would be ridiculously surprised.

Yeah, it's mostly gut.

Just the fact that he didn't have any posts to back it up but he got an "overwhelming feeling" makes me think that this is so. He knew someone was town for sure. His town reads were: framm, ST (if claim is believed), himself, me, and DP. It's probably not DP (because I doubt mafia would NK him N1), and probably not me (he was just leaning town on me). It's probably not ST because he said it was 50/50, and himself...That's self explanatory. Of course it could be gandalf, and then Friend didn't want to put him on town because he didn't want to look suspicious. Then again he was trying to get gandalf lynched...Which I why I think it's framm18.

DP, did you find the same thing from looking back?

[Aranneas]

Well I'll say it. The primary reason I was looking at Framm for scum was that I was getting town vibes off theperson throughout the game.

However, the fact that our doctor as much as confirmed Framm means that's basically impossible

Is it fair to say at this point that RazorStar is effectively confirmed scum? If we've taken Framm off the table, that only leaves us to decide between two options. Whether we take out theperson or myself is going to decide the game. I realize my credibility is currently low, but I'm going to present my case as best as I am able because I do not want you guys to make the wrong choice. I hope we don't go for a quicklynch here, because that would be very bad.

Sorry, something came up that prevented me from not posting. I'll not share what it was, because last time I did (in another game), everyone accused me of lying. So, I'll just post what I have, and apologize for making this more difficult.

At first, Aspen and DavidParker looked scummiest to me.

DavidParker, I didn't like how he was promising not to vote NS, then said he was kidding and did. He may have, as scum, not expected a NS lynch to be possible so just said this, than regretted it later and tried to find a way out. Also, he became defensive after ST was getting mad at him for the hammer.

Aspen's case is quite obvious. He bandwagons knowing that it's wrong, he lurks, and he posts a lot of WIFOM arguments knowing it's WIFOM. He seems to know what townie actions are but doesn't follow them. Kind of antitown, obviously.

Then recently, there's the whole ST thing. It looks like he's trying to put off this Aspen case, possibly even waiting for him to post more to form a stronger argument. If he posted what I (and many others) posted about Aspen earlier on, then fine. But now he makes this big deal out of it, wanting bulleted points for some reason. I'm interested to see what Aspen says after being prodded, and will be really suspicious if that post becomes a main part of ST's argument (unless it's really scummy). But I agree, ST better have something special on Aspen, because he sure put you guys through a lot of work to get it.

Framm18, I think has been helpful to town, not too much scummy. I like how he wants me to get in here and do something. I promise I will be more active after catching up (which I have, btw). I just get a bit lazy, I put off the rereading for too long. I apologize again to all of you and I hope I become much more active from here on out.

Koch, I don't like how he came in and, to quote gandalf (because I like how he put it), "parroted ST's case". The thing is, I did the exact same thing in my first game. It's either noob scum or noob town. The difference I find between Aspen and koch is that Aspen admits to everything and says he knows it's wrong. Then he should have no reason to do it if he wants to help town.

Gandalf, I think has been helpful to town as well. He has been playing more towny than in the last game I played with him (he was scum), making more meaningful posts. The only think I don't like and am confused about (besides the L-2 thing, that has been covered enough) is how he says his scumteam is "cinched" if something happens (koch parroting another case). Does that mean you have your #1 and #2 locked down there, or that you're sure they're both scum? Would a town flip change your mind?

Friend gives me a town read as well. I think the early argument between Friend and NS was extremely bad for town. It started fighting over the RQS and ended up ultimately causing a mislynch. Yes, NS did say that he wanted to lynch Friend and ST, but NS was a VT, I think he was just mad at Friend for getting him lynched and felt he must be scum. So yeah, I believe Friend is town because his posts other than arguments with NS have been helpful to town.

Also, Framm18, I am also really confused about what ST said. The first time I was like, "whatever." The next time, I was like, wait a minute.

1. How do you know you or DP wasn't the one that got NKed and protected?
2. Why can't you be scum, and that's why you're still alive?

So I want a LOT of responses from ST (as does everyone else I believe), and from Aspen. Again, I am planning to be more active. Sorry to be repetitive as well!

I will VOTE: startransmission until he answers this and talks about his Aspen case, and point out that he is at L-2.

So this is probably the swingiest post by theperson. On my initial read I saw it as most likely being misguided town. If you look at it from a scum perspective, however, it becomes more suspcious.

DavidParker

Aspen: At this point in time, this was an easy target. He neglects to bring anything new to the table, instead just trying to cement what everyone else can already see.

ST: Going after our claimed cop is not scummy in and of itself at this point in the game. Notice how he provides nothing concrete to look at, however, relying instead on threats ("this had better be good... or else").

koch: He doesn't present a case of any sort here, really. If he really found his actions this suspicious, why'd he do nothing about it?
My theory: he was trying to distance himself from his scumbuddy.

Gandalf: Ironically, probably my best argument... is his arguing in favour of my predecessor. I haven't seen anything positive that Gandalf contributed to the game in the long term (no slight on the man himself, simply his performance in this game). This strikes me as a throwaway town claim. He didn't see Gandalf as a threat of any kind, and therefore saw no issue with keeping him around.
... especially since he was conveniently trying to find dirt on startransmission. Why remove your biggest proponent for taking out the cop?

[theperson]

First, I want to point out that ST was not yet claimed cop. In fact, he claimed cop two posts after.

Secondly, keep in mind that this is similiar to a catching up post, it was my first big post after being V/LA for a week.

Aspen, I even said the case is obvious. He had just gone out and stated the had bandwagoned and lurked, and didn't seem to find anything wrong with it. So even if he wasn't scum, he was antitown and isn't worth saving until lylo, especially with the pretty high chance that he was scum.

After 0x1de replaced, I left my vote on to maintain pressure. And then...it turned into a lynch.

Koch hadn't really done anything other than repeat stuff other people had said, post some fluff, and put gandalf on L-2 early on (which I don't take a real problem with) and I thought Aspen was a lot scummier than koch. I was just thinking it was more of a noobtell, but Aspen's lurking and bandwagoning, he knew it was antitown, he even said so, but he continued to do so.

Gandalf, besides what I said about him, I didn't find scummy. I agree that he didn't contribute much, but I played with him in my last game, he had 193 posts, almost all of which were fluff (Newbie 939 if you want to see it). He was scum, but I think it's just in his nature to post fluff. So, I overall didn't think he was very scummy.

Recently he was lurking a lot, maybe because attention was shifting to him. I think I don't have as much on him as other players, especially with the NS wagon thing. Can someone please explain why we've been focusing on the NS wagon so much, and why scum must be on it?

Aranneas, hopefully you'll help us get this game moving, because deadline is in one week. Also, can you explain why you believe ST's claim? I don't see how DavidParker inclines you to believe the claim.