Newbie 976 - Game Over.

[Zorblag]

Vote Count 2.2

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

startransmission: 3: DavidParker (3), Friend (8), theperson (10)
Aspen: 2: startransmission (4), koch (7)
theperson: 1: Framm 18 (9)

Not voting: Aspen, gandalf5166

With 8 players alive it takes 5 to lynch. Currently startransmission would be lynched at deadline. Deadline is 5:00 PM EDT/2:00 PM PDT on Thursday, July 29th. Deadline Countdown.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[startransmission]

Aspen's case is quite obvious. He bandwagons knowing that it's wrong, he lurks, and he posts a lot of WIFOM arguments knowing it's WIFOM. He seems to know what townie actions are but doesn't follow them. Kind of antitown, obviously.

I feel that it's obvious as well. My vote for him was because (a. I suspected him for all the reasons that have been mentioned by most players through this game as well as (b. he was on a mislynch wagon for all the wrong reasons, therefore a bit of process of elimination and (c. to pressure him and see how he reacted. Which is why I worded my suspicions of him and Gandalf so strongly.

Friend is a wild card, he struck me as very townish on D1, but that's not a guarantee of anything. He started in on NS and NS did not come off well. Despite recent events I'm leaning town. I am town. DP is town. I know that because I investigated him last night. I am the cop. So that leaves Aspen and Gandalf. I believe at least one scum was on the NS wagon, and hence my suspicion of those two specifically.

Give me a bit and I'll get into those "bullet points".

[DavidParker]

I think now is a better time than any if a real cop is out there to counter claim. Don't see any reason not to.

In the even of a non-counter claim, I think we have to decide between a gandalf lynch and an aspen lynch.

[startransmission]

I think now is a better time than any if a real cop is out there to counter claim. Don't see any reason not to.

In the even of a non-counter claim, I think we have to decide between a gandalf lynch and an aspen lynch.

Real quick before I make dinner and stuff, I would prefer a Gandalf lynch. In fact,

Unvote, Vote: Gandalf

My feelings about him (other than just him being on the NS wagon, thought that's a large part of it) will come with my views on the case against me. They're connected.

[DavidParker]

Hmm, we have a problem (but a problem I like, because I'm basically confirmed townie either way):

Cop is a safe claim for scum if they have no roleblocker. With no night kill last night, they know we have a doctor. So they know the game setup at this point. (This is assuming nightkill was submitted, which is a logical assumption based on scum playing to their win condition)

Situation 1) ST is the cop. He is telling the truth about his check (I would have personally checked Friend, but that's just me, I like to check people "in charge"), and is the cop. Of the other 3 on the NS wagon, at least 1 is scum. Probably gandalf.

Situation 2) ST is scum. This still seems far more likely. As scum have no roleblocker, cop is a safeclaim. Not only is it a safeclaim, it's a PR claim into an invulnerable position. Since we have a doctor, there is an explanation for you not being night killed on subsequent nights. And you will obviously claim you have been roleblocked over and over again. Now, how am i town if he is scum? Because he outed me as his night 1 check. Outing your scum buddy would be suicide, if town decide not to lynch him. Okay, this is a bit WIFOMy, but my initial reaction was to believe his cop claim (because I am infact town-aligned), but upon thinking about it, it's far more likely he is scum, buddying up to me, and knows he has made a safe claim.

Due, to your claim doing you more harm than good, I think it was a terrible claim to make if you really are the cop. For that reason my vote stands. At bare minimum, if we don't lynch you, doctor should NOT protect you tonight (imo), unless we catch a scum in gandalf/friend/aspen.

[DavidParker]

Edit

: By "outing your scum buddy would be suicide" I am referring to him claiming his scum buddy was his check on night 1 and was revealed as town-aligned. Claiming to have checked your scum buddy and found him to be scum (essentially tunneling) would maybe be a viable, but risky, plan.

[Friend]

Okay.

UNVOTE: startranmission

I'll give ST the benefit of the doubt for now, although the claim IS mighty convenient. As DP said, we know that there's a doctor, so if he and his scumbuddy are both goons, he knows that there's no cop and therefore it's a safeclaim. However, that's a situation to deal with in LYLO, not on D2. If the lynchee today flips roleblocker, ST is telling the truth. In fact, if the lynchee today flips scum, ST is probably telling the truth - bussing seems like a strange strategy to take in a position like this.

ST, you didn't mention koch. What are your feelings about him?

Other than that, since we're not lynching you today, I could bite on a Gandalf lynch. My thoughts:

ST is town (assuming claim is true)
I am town
DP is town (assuming claim is true)
Framm18 is town (gut feeling)
theperson feels like town, even from his limited posts
So two of koch/gandalf/aspen are scum.

The Gandalf wagon seems to be the one that'll go through today, and according to my calculations it's a 2/3 shot.

So:

VOTE: Gandalf

[Zorblag]

Mod Note: prodding koch.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[DavidParker]

How is it a 2/3 shot? that's assuming you believe ST, friend...

Right now, the only person who would have any reason to believe him is scum... Your buddying up to him has been duly noted (should he flip town or scum)

We are in mylo tomorrow with a mislynch today (assuming doctor doesn't get any more protects), why are you beliving ANYONE right now??? Much less you, who has been critical of so much on day 1... Frankly, he strikes me more as opportunistic scum than our cop. In fact, I see no reason to claim cop quite yet when he has only had 1 check on me.

In fact, both of you haven't even posted a solid case against gandalf.


Unless something changes, I am going to be pushing strongly for an ST lynch today.

[Friend]

Yes, it's assuming I believe ST. For now, I'd rather not lynch our claimed cop. Yes, it's a possible fakeclaim, but ST will certainly be alive tomorrow, and that situation can be dealt with then. A Gandalf lynch gives us much more information that an ST lynch, especially if Gandalf flips roleblocker.

Right now, the only person who would have any reason to believe him is scum... Your buddying up to him has been duly noted (should he flip town or scum)

That first part is not true. I just don't want to take the risk of lynching an un-cc'd PR. And if ST does flip town, why would this belief be scummy?

[DavidParker]

You can choose to be skeptical and un-trusting, while not voting for him and probing/pressuring other players. I guess you can say you did that to a certain extent, so, why is gandalf scummier than aspen/koch?

Also, I've been in other games where "experienced" players have stated it's better to lynch a claimed cop (who is a big scum suspect) before lylo, not leave them around for lylo.

If ST is scum, and we mislynch today, we go into mylo (assuming doc fail) and ST will just feed us a guilty read. Then, lylo just becomes a mess, of WIFOM and mind-games and people having no idea who to trust.

You're right, if we lynch gandalf and he flips roleblocker, we are looking great. But that's a gamble I'd rather not take.

[DavidParker]

To answer your question, I'd find it scummy because you believed the cop (knowing he's cop, ie: maybe a semi-slipup), and can just roleblock him from now on, when he hasn't had any real information, except one town read. You also used your buddying to attempt to push a mislynch on gandalf with your promised 2/3 odds! Sure, it appears town to bandwagon a claimed PR (and someone you know is a PR) into a lynch, but nah.

Also, if we lynch ST and he does, perchance, flip town. We are not in the worst position. We still have a doctor and a confirmed town-aligned player. And before grammar nazi's get onto me for my pseudo-claim, I am aware those 2 may be the same person and am not claiming VT.

[startransmission]

I'll try to break stuff up as to not get too wall o' texty...

2. You

did

act defensive and jumpy at the end of D1.

But really, you didn't take long to start pushing your next mislynch ST.. Twilight phase and already trying to sow the seeds for the next mis lynch?

So you know NS is a mislynch? And what mislynch am I orchestrating now?

I understand it's all perspective, but I don't see how this comment is either defensive or jumpy. Despite NS's post hammer claim (which I later explained proves nothing) I felt it was odd to label a lynch a mislynch before the flip. And I took umbrage with the NS lynch being labeled as

my

mislynch. I also at no point began to attempt to assemble a DP wagon, so that part of the quote confused me as well. I think those are fair questions to ask.

^ What? It's a lie that scum will not admit to being scum after being hammered?? It's not a lie, and anyone who had played for any period of time on this site will know that.

Perhaps I used one too many question marks? Once again I don't see how I'm being defensive or jumpy. What I said here is fact, and knowing that NS has played more than one game here I felt that his calling that a lie very odd.

I agree, ST seems very defensive and he seems very jumpy right now.. Friend I'll need some convincing as his scum partner.

Defensive of what? Jumpy how?

How are these not fair questions? The things I had been accused of were pushing a D2 DP lynch (which I wasn't) and somehow being responsible for NS's lynch- which I wasn't, I supported the wagon and put him at L-1.

I don't know how to respond to that. Other than lurking (which could be better referred to as RL as I've not actually lurked) I've done nothing scummy, and I feel no pressure whatsoever. I don't need to not look like scum. DP has made an assumption, and I'm explaining why it's not a good assumption to make.

I can't exactly pinpoint what it is, but it feels so much like something scum would say. I know you're gonna jump all over me for this one, so maybe someone else can help me out. It's the presumptuousness, like almost arrogant scum.

Fair enough, I can't help you with this one. I felt that I was explaining my though process and my actions after the lynch D1. I'm sorry I came off badly, but I was just being frank.

4. Refusing to address any of these points until we provided you with these goddamn bullet points.

I really feel I've addressed these points before. I was addressing them as the discussion was happening.

5. NOT MAKING ANY SORT OF CASE ON ASPEN even when asked multiple times. This is not a case:

My Aspen case is basically a combo of his play, when and why he got on the NS wagon, and the process of elimination.

I wasn't pushing for an Aspen lynch, so I wasn't going to put together a big case, especially when Aspen only has 8 posts in the game. I've since explained my reasons for voting him. I was hoping to engage him early in the day and explain my suspicions as I questioned him, sadly he was a no show.

You happy now? Now tell me why Aspen is scum, and it better be good.

I never said Aspen was scum, I said he was one of my top two suspects, and I've explained why both before and after my claim.

Final word on this. I felt NS was scum. His behavior near the end of D1 was IMO very scummy. Perhaps I should've waited longer, but I felt that putting him at L-1 could yield some interesting discussion, and perhaps the pressure would absolve or clear NS of being scum, depending on how things turned out. When DP, who had previously said that he would not vote for let alone hammer NS does just that so soon after my vote my reaction was

I'm bewildered.

And I certainly was. I wasn't angry or accusatory, but I was certainly surprised and a little suspicious by the quick turnaround. I explained this at the time, and DP seemed to know why I was bewildered,

By me contradicting myself?

I do that a bit :/

Yeah, the contradiction was a large part of my surprise, but not really all of it. But when I explain why I was bewildered DP says this,

Ugh what? You're the one who encouraged the end of day phase. Yeah I caved and voted him, but I had been getting a vibe leaning scum from him for a while, and just hadn't acted on it yet.

I certainly did not encourage the end of the Day phase. That is a false statement, and I suppose I didn't react too well to it. What I did was support a wagon of somebody I felt was scum and put NS at L-1. That is not a declaration that I think that the Day should end within minutes of my vote, especially when I was in the middle of asking NS question. My view was that NS was likely scum and his wagon should not be abandoned or put on hold, as was suggested by DP, and that DP's wanting somebody else to drop the hammer was something that felt off to me. By no means is that me pushing DP into dropping the hammer, and DP has to know this as he admitted to being contradictory with his statements. That, combined with his immediate defensiveness over him hammer, and what I felt was misrepresentation of my comments led me to investigate him N1.

This is pushing a lynch,

Alright. A hammer needs to be dropped. Who's gonna do it?

No, I'm not saying Friend is scum for saying this, but it's something I should've commented on when it happened. My focus at that time was on NS.

[startransmission]

Shit. Apologies for the tag failure...

[startransmission]

And I'll get into why I think Gandalf is scum other than just being on the NS wagon, and I'll also address DP's opinion that killing an uncountered PR claim is a good course of action. Hopefully I'll get the tags right this time...

Oh, and Framm18 and Koch and Friend and ThePerson could all be scum, (I would lean towards Koch were a gun to my head) but I'd like to focus on the scum that's on the NS wagon, as I'm sure they are there.

[Framm 18]

And I'll get into why I think Gandalf is scum other than just being on the NS wagon, and I'll also address DP's opinion that killing an uncountered PR claim is a good course of action. Hopefully I'll get the tags right this time...

Oh, and Framm18 and Koch and Friend and ThePerson could all be scum, (I would lean towards Koch were a gun to my head) but I'd like to focus on the scum that's on the NS wagon, as I'm sure they are there.

Why did you include Friend in with Koch, theperson, and me? He was the one that pushed probably the hardest for NS to be lynched.

[theperson]

I guess I'll UNVOTE: startransmission for now, although DavidParker does have a point that he could be scum, but with this claim I would prefer to lynch Aspen. I don't want to risk a PR lynch, because that would be pretty bad. Yes, we would have a confirmed townie and doctor , but we would still have 2 mafia members left and be in mylo. I'm keeping my mind open, though, so feel free to try to convince me otherwise.

Also, I'm really confused as why the vote to gandalf rather than Aspen. ST, you're talking about how Aspen is one of your top suspects, and now given a choice between gandalf and Aspen, you choose gandalf. Was gandalf even higher up in your suspects? If so, why?

As I have said, I'm much more suspicious of Aspen than gandalf and I will choose to believe ST for the time being.

VOTE: Aspen

With ST's unvoting he's now at L-3.

Oh and ST, you still didn't answer the question about you and DP being targets.

[gandalf5166]

Could we get a prod on koch, mod?

And ST, I definitely want to know why you're voting me instead of Aspen. I don't remember you ever expressing any doubts about me.........

Mod Note: koch was prodded earlier this page.

[DavidParker]

Yeah, I'd love an explanation from IC/Experienced players regarding non-counter claimed PR's and when it's okay to lynch them.

My personal view on non-counter claimed PR:
Day 1 - it's a bad idea.. Unless they have played super scummy, and you know 100% they can't be kept around for lylo, then maybe. Also, I'd be more likely to day 1 kill someone who claimed doctor than cop.
Day 2 - If scum was lynched day 1, i'd be happy to let the claimed PR live still. Depends if any other PR's have claimed or been night killed (ie: do scum know the setup?). If scum don't know setup yet, theres a 50% chance a scum claiming a PR will get called out by the real PR..
Day 2 - following a day 1 mislynch, now, at this point i think the scummiest player is the best lynch, if that person is a PR, lynch away. One exception, they are a cop with a guilty find. Well, at this point you have to see who is scummier out of the two. I'd still be willing to lynch cop, since even if hes tellin truth, he will die that night or be roleblocked.
Day 3 - following 2 mislynches. Now in lylo, obvious move for a cop with results, is to claim. I'd be ready to believe a cop claim here, depending on whether or not the scum know the setup by this point (ie: has doctor been nightkilled?), same thing applies for a doctor claim, i'd be ready to believe it if scum don't know the game setup.

To me ST, you currently fall into a bad category by meeting 2 criteria:
1) You appear to be the scummiest player (to me)
2) Scum know the setup of the game at this point (ie: know what PR is a safeclaim, if any)

You will definitely be roleblocked tonight is my guess, and doctor should NOT protect you. Then if you are around in lylo (or mylo) things will get messy.

Until my concerns are further addressed, my vote is staying on ST. I will be re-looking over thread, for other possible scums, I haven't got a solid read on gandalf or aspen that I can recall. So if some kind of scum pairing that doesn't involve ST shows itself I might reconsider my vote..

[Friend]

The thing is, what is the big deal about waiting until tomorrow to deal with ST? A Gandalf flip (either alignment) would give us sooo much more information than an ST flip.

[DavidParker]

Because what if gandalf flips town (that 1/3 chance that he does according to u...) AND ST is the cop... he will get roleblocked obviously tonight (seeing as we have a doctor) so no results tomorrow.

Then I can assure you the scum will go after ST tomorrow and they will likely succeed, because I for one will still find ST to be the scummiest.

[Friend]

I think the chances of both ST and one of gandalf/Koch (I'm starting to lean a little more towards Koch at this point actually) being town are slim.

[DavidParker]

not necessarily, maybe for you since i've basically been town-cleared at this point.

but i have one extra suspect. A combination of Framm/Friend/theperson/aspen is surely possible

anyways, i still need to reread, i dont have any real pro-town vibes which is unusual and a problem.

[Zorblag]

Mod Note: I'm looking for a replacement for Aspen as of now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[startransmission]

Until Aspen is replaced and we hear from that replacement my vote will be on Gandalf. There's the fact that he's on the NS wagon, though reading through D1 he interacts with NS very little, and spends most of his time theorizing on scumteams. Friend could be the scum on that wagon, but my gut says it's far likelier to be Aspen or Gandalf based on their play and where they are on the wagon. The fact that Aspen has abandoned the game makes me feel stronger that Gandalf is that scum.

After yesterdays lynch I was accused of doing three things that I did not do. That would be being somehow responsible for DP's hammer and therefore apparently the entire NS wagon, trying to end the day phase early, and trying to set up the next days lynch using DP's hammer against him. I was falsely accused of these things by DP who was being, may I say, jumpy and defensive. Those are the arguments against me today, nothing else other than lurking (working over a holiday weekend) which I'm not going to give any regard to. The arguments are ridiculous and ones that I felt I was rationally addressing as they were occurring. I should have seen it more yesterday, but after the lynch and DP's arguments that it was all my fault and that I was trying to get him next, combined with his apparent feeling that lynching an uncountered cop claim on D2 is the way to go based off his deeply flawed theories/beliefs makes it clear to me that DP is a Village Idiot. One other player knows this and comments on it,

DP and koch. Normally I would think that DP couldn't possibly be that stupid, but I played a couple of marathon games with him, and he quite possibly could be that stupid. I'm not sure whether he really is that stupid, or if it's something he puts on so that you can't get a good read on him, but it would not surprise me if he threw in koch's name just because he was his partner.

All of post 224 Gandalf gives further examples of how... bizarre DP's play is.

Day 2 starts. Two players are going to be under the microscope, that would be DP and I. Gandalfs first post of the day,

Actually, I'm thinking a DP/ST scumteam. Their interaction in twilight very much reminds me of the dynamic between me and Sotty when we were scumbuddies. I bussed her, and she acted like my accusations were worthless without actually bothering to refute them.

Not ready to throw down a vote just yet, however.

Is him making yet another scumteam accusation (I can't tell you all how much of a waste of time looking for scumbuddies is when you've lynched no scum, it's all guesses and is not an effective scumhunting method) but not committing either way. Classic holding a foot in the door of the two likeliest wagons and waiting for others to build cases/make accusations before making a choice. But when I mention Aspen and Gandalf as my top two suspects, Gandalf uses DP's quotes, and little else, to explain his vote for me. All he has done is parrot DP's "case" against me, agreeing with him at every turn.

Indeed, DP, indeed. And ST, you're the IC. Shouldn't you know this?

Quite the turnaround from feeling that DP was not only a player that did and said stupid things almost constantly, but was also likely scum. It's opportunistic and phony, and puts him ahead of Aspen, of whom we have very little information.