Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER

[Leafsnail]

/confirm

6. Do not discuss this game outside the thread. This thread is like fight club.

What game?

Mod: This game of mafia. Which you are playing.

[Leafsnail]

Kitten4u. It says "Mafia Scum" underneath your name. This is conclusive evidence that you are a part of an organized crime syndicate, is it not?

Vote: Kitten4u

[Leafsnail]

Why would that be, My Milked Eek? Do you regard a willingness to jump on such bandwagons as a towntell or a scumtell?

[Leafsnail]

For what reason, ConfidAnon? Do you think that starting semirandom bandwagons early on is a good way to get discussion started?

[Leafsnail]

I'm not defending anyone, ConfidAnon.

Ellibereth - care to supply any reasons?

[Leafsnail]

It's usually helpful to explain your suspicions, is what I'm getting at. For instance, why are pman and MME down as distancing while others involved in the wagons aren't?

[Leafsnail]

Leafsnail, can you PM your scumbuddies and let them know we've started?

Uh... actually, looking at the OP, rule 6 implies that even the mafia members cannot communicate with each other at all.

Mod: Can the mafia members talk to each other? If so, how?

Also, since I haven't played a game with you before, why do you dislike RVS? Do you fear a hammer vote could randomly be reached or do you just think it's childish?

Ellibereth - If someone explicitly tells me they are not joking, I generally take that as an indication that they are not joking (I have it marked as the first serious attack on my notes). So, if it was, in fact, a joke, what were you hoping to gain out of it? What reactions were you looking for?

[Leafsnail]

Why do you want to know?

The mafia will act differently if they can communicate with each other. Also, additional information about the game can't hurt.

[Leafsnail]

Quite a few, although none on mafiascum.net.

[Leafsnail]

[quote=Wickedestjr]What was the purpose of the question in red, if the question in green pretty much gives Ellibereth a hint? Also, as for the green question, what told you Ellibereth was looking for reactions? I looked through his posts and I see nothing that indicates that. Those two questions were pointless. Also, it sort of looks like you are trying to help Ellibereth in a subtle manner.[/quote]
Asking questions such as these allows you to look for inconsistency of motive, a powerful scumtell. Often it's not necessarily what people do but how they explain it afterwards that shows their true colours.

As for the second question... well, I didn't want him to just post a vague "Looking for reactions" and have done with. It wasn't meant to be a hint, but a possible follow up question.

Ellibereth - why did you keep pursuing it if you weren't trying to get anything out of it?

[Leafsnail]

(If you want a corrected version of my previous post:

What was the purpose of the question in red, if the question in green pretty much gives Ellibereth a hint? Also, as for the green question, what told you Ellibereth was looking for reactions? I looked through his posts and I see nothing that indicates that. Those two questions were pointless. Also, it sort of looks like you are trying to help Ellibereth in a subtle manner.

Asking questions such as these allows you to look for inconsistency of motive, a powerful scumtell. Often it's not necessarily what people do but how they explain it afterwards that shows their true colours.

As for the second question... well, I didn't want him to just post a vague "Looking for reactions" and have done with. It wasn't meant to be a hint, but a possible follow up question.

Ellibereth - why did you keep pursuing it if you weren't trying to get anything out of it?

Anyway, ConfidAnon, what exactly do you find scummy about it?

[Leafsnail]

If you were just doing it for the hell of it, then that means all you've done so far is joke and explain your joke.

Do you have any suspicions, or are you just going to respond angrily whenever someone puts a question your way?

[Leafsnail]

Ellibereth, you've once again failed to answer my question, and have instead just thrown a vote my way. Perhaps you could at least explain why you find me suspicious, or who else you find suspicious?

[Leafsnail]

ConfidAnon... really? Christ, I have played this game before. And if I were mafia, I would've asked via pm anyway.

Also, what makes you think there are two mafia members?

[Leafsnail]

But I don't think Elli is the scummiest right now. That honor goes to Leafsnail who has yet to take a single stance on anything.

I have been trying to ask some questions to give me a more reliable handle on my initial suspicions. However, it seems that most people will simply ignore questions I send their way.

Some notes on players I have gathered so far:
Jase - Is apparently playing in this game. Where is he?
Kitten4u - Hasn't done much except RV and place the fourth vote on my wagon. You say I haven't taken a stance on anything, but isn't the whole point of asking questions to form a stance?
pman5595 - Something about the way he's defending me bothers me. Fair enough if he thinks I'm town, but could be scum trying to cloud my judgement. Pman - who do you think is scum?
ConfidAnon - Jumped on me for an extremely weak reason, and also makes a vague, unfollowed up accusation in post 83. He looks very much on the lookout for potential mislynch candidates rather than on the lookout for scum. ConfidAnon - do you really think I'm scum just for the question I asked the mod? If not, why are you voting me?
Ellibereth - Actually, something about him strikes me as unhelpful town rather than scum. I've often let frustration with someone cloud my judgement as to whether they are town or scum. However, Ellibereth, I would like you to explain your vote on me, as at the moment it looks like useless bandwagonning.
My Milked Eek - You haven't really done much except attack Ellibereth and agree with other people. Do you have any other views?

[Leafsnail]

Apparently, I forgot to put my vote down in the last post.

Unvote

.

Vote ConfidAnon

.

[Leafsnail]

It was just stuff I had noticed, not everyone.

Also, Ellibereth, you've ignored my question again.

[Leafsnail]

What's giving you this impression?

Something about the way he isn't rushing to defend his actions and cover himself up. I dunno, it's just a slight lean from past experience.

You apparently noted that Jase hasn't posted yet, but yet, somehow, fail to see that ctd has been doing nothing, thesp only asked random questions in order to avoid the random voting stage and sotty is who again?

Huh? I said I was posting my suspicions, not writing an essay on everyone. Perhaps if you stopped slanging me for leaving off a few people and actually posted some of your own analyisis the discussion would have developed more.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 42#2041742
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 44#2043544
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 87#2044087

Leaf, links to your games please.

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=39061.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=41279.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=41492.0 - Kinda degenerate setup, but the principles remained
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=42326.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=41999.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=42239.0 - Broken setup, yeah.
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=42348.0 - NOOBS GOT CONFIRMED TOWN LYNCHED
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=42373.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=42742.0 - DAMN YOU MAFIA IDIOT
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=43512.0 - My favourite game ever.
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=42096.0

And I've played quite a few more I can't be bothered to link to. I'm not a very good player - that's why I've come here to learn some tactics. But rest assured that I do know how the game works.

. . . or I could be looking for scum. Tell me, do you have any better reasons for suspecting people?

Saying that gut can't be your only reason for voting someone is a fail comment.

Since you're now going back on your previous reasons for voting me, you are now far more scummy in my eyes. You said absolutely nothing about "gut" when voting before - why are you using it as a reason now?

Anyway, now that I've made my replies, some follow up notes to my last proper post -
Jase - Still hasn't posted. We can probably expect a replacement for him at this rate.
Kitten4u - She hasn't done much except attack me, the player with the most votes. You say my questions aren't relevant, and could be done by scum. Well, they could, but attempting to get discussion going isn't a scumtell. Since you're only focusing on me, you must be very sure that I'm in the mafia. Why?
pman5595 - Seems to be making an effort to find scum, rather than dumping a vote on the latest bandwagon. Mostly town reads off him at the moment.
ConfidAnon - The most scummy player, in my eyes. Seems determined to kick me over small things, but doesn't seem to be making any attempt to establish whether I'm scum or not. Inconsistent motive for his original vote on me. I would like you to explain the disparity between your more recent post and the post where you voted me.
Ellibereth - Frustratingly unhelpful, but that doesn't make him scum, and I'm not into policy lynches. Something about him reminds me of useless town, but I'm not entirely sure yet.
My Milked Eek - You decided to attack me for not ignoring a few people while ignoring pretty much everyone except myself and Elli. Why?
Thesp - Making a definate effort to scumhunt and post suspicions. Not definate town, but he at least answers my questions and plays the game.
Oman - Your meta-grounds for voting seem fairly weak. Is his behaviour extremely different in this game?
CrashTextDummie - You really need to post more content. For instance, who do you think is scum?
Wickedestjr - Hasn't posted since he voted me. Please respond to my answer.
Sotty7 - You've mainly been criticising other people's play, while not making much yourself. Who do you think is scum?

[Leafsnail]

I'm not saying you should have posted a full, heads-on analysis on everyone, but it was and still is noteworthy that you note Jase for not having posted, while ignoring the people I brought up.

Well, he had actually not made a single post, so I decided to post him in particular.

And if you think that that was an attack or "slanging" (whatever that may mean), then I'm perceiving you to be a bit defensive here. And your counterattack on me here of "ignoring pretty much everyone except [leaf] and Elli" isn't faring all too well either.

But you are. It's easy enough to criticize someone for leaving a couple of people off his list, and a lot harder to try and look at everyone yourself.

It is interesting how pman calls you an "innocent townie" and that you have a town read on him.

This is an idle comment intended to make me look more scummy. If you were serious, you'd vote or ask me a followup question.

Who's calling it a policy lynch? In fact there aren't any policy votes in this game as far as I'm aware of.

I'm not saying it is a policy lynch - just that I'm not going to vote Ellibereth just for being unhelpful.

I don't understand how you see him playing the game. All he's doing is opposing the rvs and asking silly questions. The question(s) he asked that would appear to be relevant are inane and useless to the game.

It got some discussion going, and at the very least, forced a post from every player who's actually here. Although, if you have a problem with his playstyle, why aren't you addressing your qualms to him?

As for the meta - as far as I can tell, you were all effectively survivors in that game. That might've changed his read somewhat.

[Leafsnail]

I fail to see how you think not posting after 1 real life day (jase) is worse than posting silly attempts at a wagon (ctd).

I didn't say it was worse - just that it came to my attention. And if you think CTD is so worthy of attention... well, why aren't you paying him any?

And besides, the two players voting him are not doing it for the unhelpfulness, it's for entirely different reasons. In fact, the unhelpfulness actually came after the votes.

I'm not saying they are, just that "I'm finding Elli unhelpful and I'm not going to vote him for that". Nothing else.

And do you find the answers thesp's questions got to be helpful to the game or not?

As I say, they got some discussion started, which helps.

And while you have addressed Thesp on other issues, you haven't criticised his questions before, and are asking me why I've overlooked things you haven't done anything about yourself. Why?

[Leafsnail]

1: So you were trying to catch Ellibereth contradicting himself?

Sortof, although it doesn't have to be direct. If he had said something like "It was a BRILLIANT scumseeking ploy!" then we'd be able to compare it to what he posted and see if it was true.

2: This doesn't make sense to me. How did you even know if Ellibereth was looking for reactions or not?

As I said, just a possible followup question. It seemed like the most likely thng for him to be doing.

Also, if I interprated both parts of this post correctly, then you have contradicted your self.

Where?

[Leafsnail]

tl;dr case: Staying under the radar and active lurking.

Hahahaha. You're accusing me of "staying under the radar"? You're accusing the same Leafsnail who has the most votes and is making the biggest effort to scumhunt of "active lurking"? Pah.

And the "You didn't take any stances" is bullcrap. I was clearly pushing Ellibereth and ConfidAnon to try and establish opinions. Fine, I wasn't doing ridiculous "LOL HE'S SCUM" random voting, but you should've been able to see what I was doing.

And yes, you did "call Thesp out", but you didn't make any accusations against him. So, basically, you used the vague notion that I was "Not taking stances" as an excuse to jump on my bandwagon.

Unvote

.

Vote: Kitten4u

. So, why was I scummy while Thesp, CTD (who was RVing) and Ellibereth ("It's just gut") weren't? Why did you choose to go for the guy who was on his first game on mafiascum and who already had 3 votes on him? And, most importantly, in what possible sense am I "staying under the radar"?

[Leafsnail]

1.) I don't see what having the most votes has to do with anything.
2.) I don't believe you were really scum hunting. Again, the vibe I get from all your questions is that you were trying to look busy when you weren't doing anything as I said. Obviously if I thought you were scum hunting with those questions I wouldn't be voting for you.

But even if you thought I was active lurking and only trying to appear to do something, there's no way that's equivalent to "Staying under the radar". As for me the votes... well, isn't the point of staying under the radar to avoid scrutiny and votes?

What makes you think that my questions to Ellibereth weren't useful while, say, CTD's random attack on MME was?
-Thesp also had no stances which bugged me and that's why I called him out on it. However, I didn't get the vibe that he was trying to look active without really saying anything from him like I do from you, so I considered him less scummy than you.

And I'm asking you to explain this "vibe".

And I consider gut a perfectly valid reason to vote for someone.

And it is - there's nothing wrong with voting someone on a gut suspicion. However, there is something wrong with voting someone on a gut suspicion and making no attempt to draw out more solid evidence on them while keeping your vote on them anyway. In addition, you didn't follow up your question ("So who's scum?") at all, perhaps indicating that you didn't care about my answer.

OMGUS noted.

I tend to scrutinize those jumping on bandwagons early, even if the person being jumped on is me. OMGUS is not necessarily a scumtell.

[Leafsnail]

First you say you are trying to see if Ellibereth's responses are inconsistent and you also say that the second question is just a possible follow-up question. The way you said "just a possible follow-up question" seemed to me like it wasn't really that important of a question. Also, you claim that the most likely reason for Ellibereth's behavior was to get reactions yet ask him why he acted that way? It doesn't make sense to me.

I thought it was the most likely, and best for a followup, although it wasn't the only reason, as Ellibereth later demonstrated .

These two strike me as disingenuous, particularly the last one because he said this. Unless I was supposed to take him totally seriously that he thought I was scum because I had Mafia Scum under my name.

It was a joke, but I didn't spend the next several posts pushing a lynch on you for it.

So that's what I was seeing. "Staying under the radar" may not be the right term for what I'm seeing, so I'll try to describe it again. Basically, I feel like he was trying to avoid connections with other players, but since doing that would make him look lurktastic and scummy I feel like he opted to ask a bunch of irrelevant/semi-relevant/reactionary questions to make it look like he was doing something.

But the questions weren't really irrelevant - they were all game related. I mean, I suppose you could accuse me of not caring about the answers, but they did each refer to the game.

Leaf, why did you ask the following question: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 42#2041742

Pregame joke.

[Leafsnail]

Vote: Kitten

Uh... why are you voting Kitten? More importantly, why are you only voting for her after it looked like a bandwagon was starting?

I'm disliking the Kitten4u wagon even more.

Other than the fact that he's apparently doing it to "spite" you, you haven't made any other comments on Kitten. What exactly don't you like about people voting her?

[Leafsnail]

I must be terrible at explaining what I'm seeing. Anyway, what were you hoping to get out of those questions?

Inconsistencies. Overexplanation. Overdefensiveness. Vagueness. Refusal to answer. Panic. The prescence or abscence of these things can tell you a lot. Note that these aren't all necessarily scumtells. Other than this... you haven't really asked any questions or made any kind of enquiries in that post. Why? Who's scum?

The wagon on you wasn't going to happen.

Why couldn't it have happened?

Ugh... it kinda sucks to have so many replacements so early. Totally messes up a read.

[Leafsnail]

What have the answers to your questions told you so far?

Slight town read on Elli, helped create discussion that formed my current suspicions.

Most people read the rules during the confirm phase, especially if they are bored and bit-chomping like Leaf was. If they have questions, they ask them then, either by PM or in-thread. Of course, a scum isn't going to read nighttalk rules very carefully at that point, because his role PM contains a more detailed version.

I read them, yes, but Thesp's question made me realise that Rule 6 seemed a bit odd.

In posting his answer, that scum is probably going to realize something along the lines of "if I show that I don't know this, it suggests I'm town" and a question to the mod is posted as a smokescreen. Later, he says that, if he were scum, he'd have PMed the mod but that begs several questions. Why not, instead, point out that the scum surely were told their powers in their role PMs, unless he thought that might bring unwanted questions about how he knows or why he asked an obvious question? Why PM the mod as scum but not as town? Why that second skim of the rules in reference to Thesp's question?

I don't know what the scum have in their role pms. As for asking the mod on the main thread... well, I thought someone else might have thought the same thing as I did, and a clarification might be better.

Really? Reaching suspicions based on the fact that he said "partner" instead of "partners"?

I was parodying his attempt to paint me as super-newb scum.

In #89, Leaf reverses his position on Elli with no explicit reason (he does come up with one later, when questioned, but flip flops on it). Elli has only made a one-word post between his last attack and this dismissal but two things of note have happened.

The reason I ask questions is to try and establish a read on someone. Having asked some questions, I came to the conclusion that Elli was probably obstructive town.

One player has voted Leaf saying that Elli doesn't look like scum and pman (a potential buddy) has both defended leaf and condemned Elli (which might have inspired distancing). Furthermore, as is pointed out later, this post gives early reads on most players but leaves out Oman, Thesp, CTD, and Sotty. Who ignores veteran players? Scum.

I'm not sure who are "veteran players" here and who is new. I wrote people's names in that posts according to things which struck me about them, not according to how long they have been on this forum.

#146 seriously looks like scum damage control: add the neglected players to the notes, pointlessly link to a bunch of games in response to someone else that did the same, post some slippery OMGUS defenses. This is also where he gives reasoning for his Elli-town read. It's very iffy and laden with qualifiers, which means it's easy to go back on if he needs to.

The links was a direct request from Elli, which didn't seem to hard to do. As for the Elli read, what exactly do you find "iffy" about it?

Then he gets in the squabble with kitten, which, like I said, seems very disingenuous to me, like two buddies having at it. This is solidified in #186, where he questions Elli (who he's reading as town) for voting kitten (who he's currently voting) while, in the same breath, asking Thesp to speak out against the kitten wagon. I don't see why a townie would act this way at all.

Agreeing with me =/= town. Yes, I was and am still voting Kitten, but switching votes without reason (in the manner that Ellibereth did) should generally receive scrutiny. Thesp, meanwhile, hadn't provided a particular reason for not voting Kitten, so I wanted to see what reason he gave.

[Leafsnail]

I'm torn on Leaf. His scum-talk question was bad but

nothing else makes me think scum.

He does ask a lot of questions but I can't see them leading anywhere.

Look at any post of Leak's [Leaf's] and you will see this.

So which is it, Budja? These seem to pretty much directly contradict each other. Did you just realise I'd be the easiest to mislynch, especially if you suddenly changed your stance on Kitten due to a lacklustre post?

I won't pop a vote yet (bit more reading) but I think I will be joining the popular wagon

Or does this tell us all we need to know on your motive for voting me? You haven't done anything other than rehashing old arguments about "pointless questions" and so on.

[Leafsnail]

The only addition I can think of is the "scum-talk slip" you did. It's a good case and pretty complete IMO. You could really sum up my last post as "I agree with this case".

So why didn't you say that before? Before you were just quoting Kitten to show how "obv town" she is. Now you're doing it as a bandwagonning method. This is exactly what I meant by "inconsistency of motive". Also, if you can tell how obvscum I'm being by looking at ANY of my posts, how did you possibly miss them all the first time around?

[Leafsnail]

1.) Why did you ask Ellibereth about her behavior if you already assumed he was doing it to get reactions?

Again, it seemed like the most likely possibility. Not the only possibility, but the most likely one.

2.) What do you think is the purpose of asking a follow-up question?

Allows you to get more information. Usually, when I say "Why did you do that?" to someone, they say "Looking for reactions" and nothing else. I wanted an expanded answer, basically.

3.) What specifically has given you your town read on Ellibereth?

Again, it's from past experience - someone being useless and obstructive is probably town, as scum would at least try to answer and avoid suspicion and followups. That's not to say I prefer to play with useless and obstructive people, but I find that people like this are generally more helpful as scum.

[Leafsnail]

...Though I can't help but feel I've answered this question before.

...And I can't help but feel the answer's equally inadequate.
[quite="Kitten4u"]You see, it's questions like this that make me suspicous of you. If you can't tell who I think is scum you are obviously not reading the thread.[/quote]
It's deliberate misquotes like those that make me sure I'm not wrong about you.

Is that what you got out of the first three quotes I post in this post?

To some extent, yes.

@ Leaf: I'm not buying that your read on Elli was based on the questions you asked, because he didn't answer any between the two reads, and because you already said it was for different reasons, which makes this another slip.

The absence of an answer to a question can definately still tell you something. I feel that scum would be more likely to answer all the questions and try to get me off their backs.

I don't believe that you can't tell who the veterans are, when some of them have obvious special titles and post counts are easy to find.

I assumed the titles were by-request, which doesn't necessarily tell you how good someone is at playing. And I haven't looked up anyone's postcount because... well, I don't think it's important. Newbs and pros can both be scum.

As for the scum-chat slip, of course a townie wouldn't know exactly what's in the scum role PM but, unless he's never been scum, anyone should know what's typical. The rest of your defense on that point doesn't add up either.

I know what's typical, but every game's different. Sometimes it's nighttalk, sometimes daytalk, sometimes QT, sometimes pms and I thought this one might've been no communication. I'm getting tired of discussing this, but you can ask me about anything else you find odd about me reading the rules.

If #77 was a parody of Con (which is plausible), why didn't you tell him that when he seemed to take you seriously in #79?

I thought he'd got my point.

Overall, I find the tone of your defense vs. me to be null/acceptable but that against budj to be a little too slimey.

That'd be my RL way of talking creeping in.

What are your current reads on the two of us (and why)?

Ythll - Leaning town. Questions seem genuinely aimed at finding out my alignment.
Budja - Leaning scum. Attack contradicts itself, is fairly weak and he isn't bothering to apply any more pressure. I don't buy "lazy reading" as an excuse.

[Leafsnail]

Two things. First, Leafy is still worse in my opinion. Second, there's not really much to push when someone is shamelessly bandwagoning.

There is something to push - you can ask them why if you think they're shamelessly bandwagonning, even if you think I'm worse. If asking questions isn't you style - well, you could try applying pressure.

Wait what? So I should ask questions even if I don't care about the answer and I don't think they will further my read on people?

I didn't say anything along those lines - that's a strawman. My general jist is that you aren't making any attempt to scumhunt anyone, even me, your prime suspect.

Then you're going to have to be more specific with what you wanted. I thought I answered your question.

Unless you seriously think I am a Serial Killer and the only scum in the game, there would be other scum out there. You aren't trying to find any of them, and you seem at best indifferent about my own alignment. I understand if you don't want to ask me questions, but you don't seem to be making accusations or doing anything else either.

Elli why are you voting Kitten. I ask because that looks like real scumpartner behaviour there.

Just to clarify, are you accusing him of bussing a partner or of bandwagonning a townie?

I'm not sure if I like the way Oman and Elli both jumped on Kitten. I'd like both of you to clarify your reasoning for doing so. Specifically, Elli, what made you change your mind about your theory? Why do you want to see a claim?

[Leafsnail]

Ok - I really, REALLY don't like the way a claim was forced from Kitten and was then backed down from. I seriously fail to see how saying you're a vanilla townie suddenly means you cannot be in the mafia.

The only other person I would be comfortable with lynching atm is Elli. I have mild suspicion of Thesp, Sotty and pman, but I'm not really comfortable with lynching them and I'm not convinced that they are scum yet.

Is this what you call "Weak stances", by any chance? Because I don't think I've ever seen a stance weaker than this one. Add this to the fact that you're apparently agreeing with someone you think is scum (pman) and voting me over something you've said is "fine" (post 258), you're still by far the scummiest player here.

Before I get to Leafy, I just to say that yes, it is possible I'm thinking way too hard and that I'm reading way too much into things. That's why I'm not just putting the points on display, but my thought process as well. Tell me where my logic is faulty if it is.

Another caveat. I suppose this is insurance if I end up dying before you - "Oh, I wasn't

sure

he was scum". For someone who's accused me of having weak stances, you don't even seem committed to your vote. You keep putting in reasons why you might be wrong, and yet you're still voting me anyway. If you actually thought I was scum, you'd have nothing to fear from me dying.

I'm not completely sure if this is where my gut read is coming from, but it certainly makes sense in my mind.

Allows Kitten to avoid committing again...

I didn't know what bugged me about it as of page 4, but I do now. Ythill summed it up nicely, so I'm just going to quote him.

"I didn't think I could get away with attacking Leafsnail for this, but now that a good player has done it I have no problem buddying with him"

Potential town motivation in this one? Perhaps. I can see town!Leafy asking it because scum will act differently if they can talk (as he said). I think the above is more likely though for the reasons Ythill provided.

Christ, I'd forget who you were suspicious of if you didn't have your vote on me.

The only other person I would be comfortable with lynching atm is Elli. I have mild suspicion of Thesp, Sotty and pman, but I'm not really comfortable with lynching them and I'm not convinced that they are scum yet.

I thought I was scum? If I'm scum, why aren't you happy with lynching me? Perhaps it would make you look very bad when I flip town? And if you want Elli lynched, why don't you put your vote where your mouth is?

As far as I can tell, you have 5 stances.

The one on me is apparently so weak that you keep making possible excuses for me, and you don't even want me lynched.
The one on Ellibereth seems to be purely self defensive, as he seems like the only person other than yourself who may be lynched.
Your other three stances (Thesp, sotty, pman) are so ridiculously weak and vague that they might as well not be there at all.

Kitten, I'm not voting you because you have a different playstyle. I'm voting you because you are scum.

[Leafsnail]

I only brought them up because you asked me to.

And this is the problem in a nutshell. As far as I can tell, you picked 3 other players pretty much at random in order to pretend not to be tunnelvisioned.

Are you reading my posts? Because I had said that it struck me as disengenuous, but I didn't explan why. I didn't know why. It was just a vibe, but Ythill explained it fine. I didn't feel the need to repeat him.

Exactly what I mean. You noticed it but didn't attack me because you didn't think you could get away with it.

[Leafsnail]

Nevermind the fact that I totally admit to being tunnelvisioned. It's how I roll. >_>b

In which case, why have you put out 4 other "suspects"?

Did you read the post I linked? Because in that post I do use that as part of my attack.

I'll be charitable and call this a mistake rather than a lie. You said literally nothing beyond "That post bothers me but I'm not going to say why and I'm not going to make any specific accusations over it"

[Leafsnail]

Again, I wouldn't have even brought it up if you didn't ask me to.

This is my problem. You only did it in order to try and get some suspicion off you.

I said it struck me as disengenuous. Being disengenuous is obviously a bad thing.

But it applies no pressure and tells you nothing to vaguely say something is "disingenuous". You made no specific allegations and it didn't contribute to your weak attack at all.

[Leafsnail]

...Huh. I feel that Kitten has been let of the hook for not doing anything in particular. The only thing that saved her is Elli's vote flip, and I feel that some people have changed bandwagons opportunistically.

Don't like this justification. Wouldn't scum just as likely ignore questions they don't want to answer? Wouldn't town want to answer all the questions put to them to make sure people see their towness?

But when combined with the newbtells I've been getting off Ellibereth, it seems to point me towards town. Newb town has a tendancy to be useless like this while newbscum tends to aim to please more.

It's just that... well... I'm getting a sense of deja vu. Virtually every mafia game I've ever played has had a day one in which a newb has slipped up, acted stupid and got lynched for it, while the actual scum are ignored. A lot of Elli's behaviour reminds me of this. I suppose you could say he'd be a liability at lylo anyway, but this is null - lynching a town player, regardless of ability, puts us one mislynch closer to lylo.

Two important questions to those on the Ellibereth wagon -
1. Is Ellibereth your number one choice for a lynch (if you could pick anyone)? If not, who is?
2. If you switched over from another wagon, what did that person do to make themselves look more town in your eyes? If they didn't, are you going to continue pursuing them over it tomorrow?

[Leafsnail]

Eh, fair enough. I suppose "Obstructive town" could replace newbtown.

I still feel Elli to be town.

[Leafsnail]

It's difficult to comment on suspicions which have no real cases behind them, to be honest. Seems sorta genuine, though.

[Leafsnail]

Right, so, to start off:

Vote Budja

.

Yesterday, Budja, you attacked me on dubious grounds, before jumping over to Ellibereth at the last minute. Your reasoning for hammering Ellibereth was, at best, shaky ("I don't think he's scum but I'm voting him anyway"). Also, why does Elli town mean Wick town?

[Leafsnail]

I <3 the Budja vote.

Any, actual, y'know, reasoning?

Vote: Wicked

Ditto.

I still feel kitten is most likely scum, but Budja has pushed himself to the top of my list by dropping in at the last moment and killing the discussion. It looks, to some extent, like he is shielding Kitten from having to make a decision on the wagon - Kitten was beginning to flounder over whether she should keep her vote on me or switch to the newly available wagon.

[Leafsnail]

I'd quite like to see Moriarty's take on all this, although the replacement messes up my read somewhat. Wick seems to have been behind for quite some time too.

I was pretty conflicted when Ellibereth wanted to turn on Budja, I must admit, because Budja is indeed at the top of my radar.

If this is the case, why were you on the Ellibereth wagon?

yeah, I don't like wicked either, but I'm not going to vote him because all I would get is OMGUS thrown at me :/

Pman, this is scummy. Town wouldn't bother to cover themselves in this way - after all, they need to catch scum, and if they won't vote them, they won't get them lynched. Scum, on the other hand, does not care and just wants to avoid scrutiny. Also, what kind of read do you have on Budja?

[Leafsnail]

The only points of wicked's case that interest me are pman's semi-contradictory attack on Elli for being VI.
But I think this is more of a newb-tell than a scum-tell.

So no, I don't think pman is a good lynch.
---
Now for wicked..

So no comments on any of the accusations against you? And if the arguments against Elli were flawed, why did you hammer him? And is that really the ONLY thing on this entire thread you find interesting?

This post raises far more questions than it answers, Budja.

[Leafsnail]

p-man's arguments were flawed.
I didn't like Elli's later actions and thought him the best choice.

Most accusation on me revolve around my lack of content (IIRC). Only one way to fix that and its not be starting an argument.
---
...and there is more to look at but I have to look over it properly when I am in the correct mood. I'll look over Wicked by tonight and have some more out.

Well, no, not really. It's the way you threw the vote on a wagon while distancing yourself from it, the way you vaguely attacked me yesterday without conviction. Also, you're now lying.

Not fully convinced but certainly a better lynch than kitten.

Yet in your latest post you seem to imply that you were pretty damn sure. Why the change?

[Leafsnail]

With 12 people in the game, we're looking at 2 or 3 Scum, potentially 4 but it's extremely unlikely. So with a pair of competing VT wagons, as you stated, it makes no sense for Scum to attempt to flip from one VT to another. Which means that Scum...would either stay on the K4U wagon, or shift to the Ellibereth wagon near the very end, or be very early onto the Ellibereth wagon

In what possible way is this even remotedly helpful? You seem to have covered all three possibilities.

K4U only started being sketchy with her strange reasons for voting Leafsnail over people like Ellibereth a decent amount of pages in, whereas Ellibereth tried his damnest to be an annoying git from as early on as Page Two, with virtually no sign of improving.

Again, I don't see what you're trying to say with this.

At this point, the only people on Elli are Oman and a known Townie. K4U has the better chunk of a wagon on her, and the only other person with a decent number of votes is Leafsnail, oddly enough.

Again, true - but again, what's your point?

I see no reason for Ythill to want competing K4U and Elli wagons, but the only way that his votejump could be considered Scummy is if Leafsnail were Scum. However, post#346 makes me pretty certain that Ythill is Town.

Ok, so if I'm scummy, so is Ythll.

Leafsnail is particularly unnerving, I will think he's Town one moment, and then he says something extremely Scummy, and then I will think he's likely Scum and then he does something that is utter nonsense for a Scum to do, but something an idiot Townie would be likely to do in such a situation.

So I am scummy... but Ythll's move still seems towny to you. Why? Also, if you're troubled by some of my actions, why don't you ask me about them or attempt to improve your read?
#1) Impatient hammer-happy idiot Townie. This seems to be my initial read on him. However...

#2) K4U looked pretty horrible at the end of the day, even though the wagon had moved to Elli. A Budja-Scum would know that Elli would flip Town, and by ending the day short he would bring K4U under a heavy amount of suspicion.

Right. You're using these reasons to say he's "likely town" and yet the second one is very much against him. This looks like shielding.
[quote="376]But the latter option doesn't really work, because it means putting himself under even more suspicion than K4U: sure, if he went down and flipped Scum, K4U would trivially follow assuming she kept playing in the same fashion, but it meant putting himself under a lot of unnecessary suspicion when before this...he really didn't have all that much suspicion on him[/quote]
Well, he had just been accused by Ellibereth, someone who he almost certainly knew was going to flip town.

@Leaf, Elli was hard to read. I wasn't certain but I was happy enough to lynch him over Kitten.

That's the thing. You shouldn't lynch someone over a null read.

Leaf still looks scummy. (I'm trying not to get too tunnel-gut-visioned here, but there really is something off about his posting. I feel as if my words are being twisted a little anyway.)

Aw, do I now? In which case, why are you only stating it and not making even the slightest attempt to get me lynched or question me?

Budja is still scum, although it will be interesting to see whether he jumps on the Moriarty wagon or avoids it. If you don't see why, just ask yourself the question - Why would a self proclaimed "hammer happy idiot" day one, who hammers someone he isn't sure is town, not be voting for or attacking someone he thinks is scum?

[Leafsnail]

Oh, missed off my finishing paragraph about Moriarty. Sorry.

Moriarty is acting extremely strangely. Firstly, in that he's defending Budja; secondly, in that he complains about me being a null read but doesn't attempt to do anything about it; and thirdly, most interestingly, he's got 1 person pegged as scum and 2 pegged as "neutral". Surely, logically, that means that the two "neutral" people are most likely scum (as he claims to have town reads on all the others)?

[Leafsnail]

I have assignments to do for various classes, and just recently replaced in. Could you give me a little while to actually reread 15 pages of thread, thanks, Leafsnail?

I made no complaints about your reading of the game - you seem to have gone over most of the important points. The problem is more that you are almost certainly scum.

[Leafsnail]

The problem is more that you are almost certainly scum.

Why aren't you voting her?

Budja's given me absolutely no reason to unvote him. I'd like to at least see some decent responses from him if I were to change. His attack on me isn't only groundless but pressureless, an extremely lazy attempt to appear active.

[Leafsnail]

Sorry for the lack of posting for a while, I'm having some problems with the site.

Anway:
Wick's defence seems odd. He's fine with going through attacks on him point by point, but doesn't seem to be making any of his own.
[quote"Wicked"]1b: From memory, Leaf actually defended himself to my satisfaction before I got a town read on Kitten.[/quote]
This is not true. You continued to push me over the night talk rules quite a while after you changed your vote away from me. The reason you gave was

I am not as suspicious of Leaf as I was before because I don't see Kitten and Leaf being partners and I think Kitten is more suspicious, but I would still like responses to my questions from Leaf.

Implying that you still thought I was scummy, but that Kitten was scummier, and I wasn't going to be her partner. It had nothing to do with my defending myself.

I also really don't like the way Wick is answering questions with questions and mildly counterattacking the asker. Also, asking for the exact place to defend yourself is pretty scummy.

I still don't want to let Budja or Moriarty off the hook for free though, damnit.

[Leafsnail]

Yep. Wickedestjr is scum.

Vote: Wickedestjr

. I hate to let lurkers off the hook but... I guess he's gonna be replaced.

My very first suspicion in the game was Leaf because of a possible Leaf and Ellibereth connection. Sure I thought the points had merit, but 4 pages in the game, that wasn't a case I wasn't going to stick with forever unless nobody seemed scummier, or Leaf reacted strangely. However, the opposites of those two things occured. I got a new suspect (Kitten) and Leaf didn't react strangely to the accusation. It took him a day or two I think it was to convince me, but I eventually thought he was town based on his response.

I've already shown you that this isn't true. And you've ignored it. You voted Kitten because you thought she was scum and that made me town. And you continued to press me anyway. This segment is an outright lie.

Another reason I voted him was to see how he would react so I could figure out if he was town or scum. I thought he was town and also thought Ellibereth was town based on his behavior later in the game. Kitten seemed scummier with her strange reasons for voting Leaf. I voted her for these reasons. She defended herself to my satisfaction.

Where? And why did you chase her all the way to L-1?

I have to say though that the day was cut short for me. I usually need about 20 pages at least to get a decent idea of who the scum were. That is why my suspects changed a lot day 1 and it is my town meta to do that. I can show you several games to prove it.

Meta based defence is null - any decent player can manipulate their town meta, especially if they are the one to bring it up. What is scummy is that you're trying to use it as a shield.

[Leafsnail]

It's 3am for me, and I'm mainly taking notes to use tomorrow, but

I've played with Leaf before, and I know how to handle him if the time comes.

Huh? This is my first game on mafiascum...

[Leafsnail]

All quotes are from wick.

Why?

What?

I hope you're joking. That'd make you the funniest person here.

...But I would have still wanted him to defend against the accusation even if I thought he was the towniest person in the game. There's no reason for him not to.

If you thought I was so townie... why push it so much?

1: What is this in reference too?

Where did she defend herself to your satisfaction?

2: I didn't chase her to L-1. I was one of the first few people to vote her. Rolling Eyes

But you stayed on her right until L-1.

This doesn't make sense. Let's say that there was a player who always lurked regardless of their allignment. Why would lurking in a game where their allignment was unknown mean that they were scum?

You were using it as a defence. Not as a null.

[Leafsnail]

Well... not much has changed. Wick is still scum, just inactive scum.

My apologies, I thought I had made it clear that I preferred other candidates, but that between Moriarty147 and Wickedestjr, I would vote Wickedestjr. I will vote for Wickedestjr over No Lynch as well. I find it notable that you're removing steam from the only other wagon that seems to have any decent attention. I'm still not understanding what you mean here - I do want to push for wagons now, and I'd rather push and get a wagon/claim on pman5595. However, the current size of the wagon on Wickedestjr has precluded that - we must hear from Wickedestjr.

In which case,,, again, why didn't you put him at L-1?

[Leafsnail]

Didn't go through? Are you claiming to have been blocked?

[Leafsnail]

Wait... what the hell are you doing?! Seriously! For one thing, I've never, ever played a game where you cannot distinguish between a block and a kill. For another thing, are we really going to have no lynch at all just because scum claimed vig?

[Leafsnail]

What is this I don't even

Yeah, I'm back. I'll try and sort though this godforsaken mess now.

[Leafsnail]

Ok, I'll try and work what's happened. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any points.

Also, since wick flipped Serial Killer, I guess I might've been wrong about the RB/ Doc thing. But never mind.

Serial Killer Wickedestjr nearly escapes the lynch with a last minute vig claim, but is chased down and hammered before deadline.

519: Fate votes pman for... uh... not dying? Actually, I'm not sure. What was the meaning behind your initial vote on pman, Fate?
522: Pman issues vague response.
523: Fate quotes pman twice but FoS's Fate?
525: Ythll puts pman at L-2.
526: Pman spazzes out and issues a weak OMGUS to Ythll.
527: Very odd post from Fate. I don't like his explanation for the end of D2 at all - he seems to be using the fact that Wick was unaligned scum to "prove" it couldn't've been a bus. Scum can certainly bandwagon on non partners too.
529: Weird, useless response from pman. Judging by the difference between the way he talks to Ythll and the way he talks to Fate, I can certainly see a pman/ Fate scumteam.
532: Odd, considering he was discussing the possibilty of a wick bus the post before.
537: The post which makes pman obvious. Comon, there's literally no way you can be a jailkeeper with your previous behaviour. Also - why the heck would scum kill wick? You seem to be claiming a protect. The second part of your claim is double bullshit - blocking a town PR is a small risk compared to the chance of blocking the mafia (especially if you blocked your top suspicion) or protecting a townie. All his behaviour since then has been plain horrible.

And... to be honest, I don't see any reason to prolong this.

Vote: pman5595

. That's hammer.

[Leafsnail]

We are in a pretty good situation. We probably only have one scum left, and we still have all our PRs. We just need to get rid of the last mafia member now.

With that in mind,

Vote: Fate

. Your interactions with pman were all odd, and I believe pman started the day on you as an attempt at distancing. Your explanation for the end of day 2 is bizarre, and your defensive of "Oh it can't have been a bus" sucks. In some ways, I think pman might have made a deliberately horrible claim in order to protect you, his partner.

[Leafsnail]

Hehe. Obvious attempt at framing is obvious.

And yes, it couldn't have been a bus. However, I do not see how that is a defense. Jumping on and off someone randomly is scummy even if they are not your partner.

In addition, I see no possible way in which a direct accusation on you is deflection, especially if noone has accused me previously.

[Leafsnail]

It is a deflection because you are probably indeed his scum buddy, from the posts I've read.

So I should start every day responding to non existant accusations, then?

You still haven't answered the question: Why would I get off the SK and on to my partner, Pman?

Quite simply, it's best for at least some of the mafia not to be on a townwagon (and you would, knowing who's in the mafia, think of him as town). Casting a vote on your partner when there isn't much chance of him being lynched also helps with distancing. I believe that, with my point about the roleblocker, you suddenly realised he could be the Serial Killer, and thought it safe to move back onto him.

I'm not actually sure why you attached so much weight to this argument of mine. I threw it out in passing, and it actually wouldn't mean much (if his target had been protected by a doctor, he would've probably received no pm, and thus could think he had been roleblocked too). It was far from a damning indictment.

[Leafsnail]

It was damning to me. I'm used to games where you are told if you are RB'd, and where you only find out you have been blocked if you wake up and your target is still alive.

...These two statements directly contradict each other.

You're right, your point did make me realize he was more likely a SK than a vig. That is why I moved back to him. Not because it was "safe" but because I'm town and want to lynch the bad guys.

Why SK though? Mafia can kill too, after all. The last part of this post is silly - a townie wouldn't feel the need to restate that. And if you thought him to be SK rather than mafia... why didn't you mention that at the time?

[Leafsnail]

I think it's highly likely we have one scum left, especially with the "2 scum left" slip made by pman that Ythll picked up on. I guess he could be lying, but it would be a pretty pointless lie.

[Leafsnail]

Ridiculously early defeatism is ridiculous...

I mean, seriously. Moriarty, Sotty and CTD haven't even posted yet.

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, Fate. This absolutely stupid.

You don't even know what stances the other 3 players are going to take. Why aren't you even trying to get scum today? The only thing I can think of is that you're mafia hoping that an apparent willingness to die will get you off the hook.

[Leafsnail]

So why are you claiming and basically rolling over? Why aren't you bringing any real evidence against me or mounting a serious defence of yourself?

[Leafsnail]

Fate, do you have any actual evidence against me, or are you going to keep using the buddying of a dead mafia member to me as evidence of my guilt?

Like, for instance, scummy behaviour? Anything?

[Leafsnail]

I strongly suggest ISOing Fate and doing a search for pman. Interesting how he randomly switches between attacking and defending him, isn't it?

[Leafsnail]

But why do you vote Thesp, Fate? Oh, right, for voting pman. Who you thought was scum. And then you switch to and from wickedestjr with little reason.

And Fate... although connections can contribute to a case, the basis should ALWAYS be a player's own behaviour. Budja also behaved in a scummy manner.

[Leafsnail]

Nothing to say about the links Budja and ConfidAnon supposedly made to Pman?

Come to think of it... you're saying I'm scum for not highlighting all the ways in which you think the people you've replaced have been scummy?

[Leafsnail]

Defending yourself merely because someone has not made points against the people you have replaced is extremely poor. Neither ConfidAnon or Budja were shining beacons of towniness. The main reason I'm making a case against you is that YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO RESPOND TO IT EVEN IF YOU AREN'T.

[Leafsnail]

Lame OMGUS is lame.

[Leafsnail]

What interactions in particular were odd to you?

Random changing between wick and pman as well as his early vote/ unvote of him. It's almost like he couldn't decide whether he needed to bus his partner or not.

As for protecting Fate... who knows? Perhaps Fate has a better role, or maybe pman had just given up.

And, apart from the reaction, Fate's behaviour since then should've made it clear he was scum. He claimed VT for

no reason

(possibly in the hope of getting me to claim as well?), seemed to give up (with one vote on him?) and then started posting a case that amounted to little more than OMGUS.

And now Fate's simply flatly denying any connection his predecessor's had with pman. No real arguments, just "This could be town because..." Well, no, it couldn't. Repeatedly prodding at the same player when there are other people there is a connection.

[Leafsnail]

So voting your top suspicion made him more suspicious than your top suspicion?

[Leafsnail]

Yes, Leaf. Is that so unlikely?

Well, it's not at all unlikely if you're scum and don't care who gets lynched.

[Leafsnail]

Can you explain why?

Because I had just replaced in. Pman was my #1 based off notes. Thesp became a target based off my interactions when I started playing. So

I voted him to see other's thoughts

and his reaction.

Lynch time.

[Leafsnail]

You voted someone to see what other people thought about it. Surely if you thought him to be scum it doesn't matter...

And your OMGUS remains terrible.

[Leafsnail]

You were defeatist not so long ago, no?

And I can't find flaws in something that's basically non existant.

[Leafsnail]

He was buddying with what he thought was a new player. I misread him at first.

[Leafsnail]

Is anyone else other than Fate still actually playing? Do you have any ideas or thoughts?

[Leafsnail]

Eh, double replaces are annoying.

Hmm, Thesp and CTD haven't posted for a while. Thoughts?

[Leafsnail]

Y'know, if both you and Kitten are to be believed, we have, at most, 2 PRs. I see no reason why you claimed so early today, nor any reason for you to trust Kitten's claim.

[Leafsnail]

That is debatable. If I were CA I would be able to defend that stance better, so what can I say. I can only defend it through knowing his alignment and guessing.

...If you can't defend that stance without guessing, why use it as part of your case?

Leaf being scum hinged on Pman being scum? Well guess what, Pman DID flip scum. So now his connection is valid. Players often see connections like these even though they have little basis with no flips. If we go back later in the game these make sense.

It makes a hell of a lot more sense if he already knew pman's alignment at the time.

Well I don't.There are genuinely newb town players and need to be read with that in mind.

Newb town and newb scum do act very differently. However, it's an easy way for a partner to avoid interaction with another one.

See CA and how I can't think what my previous incarnations were thinking.[/quote
So why the HELL did you ask for a case based on your predecessors?

Where do you see the scummy motive in this? Why would scum switch off his partner onto someone else when his partner wasn't in danger of being lynched?

"I'm going to ignore the question and instead invoke an obvious case of WIFOM"

Look, you didn't even defend your action or answer the question. You just present the same argument again and again, and phrase it in a way town wouldn't think (town don't tend to defend themselves using interactions with dead mafia members).

Hmmmm Sotty might be scum trying to look hesitant on my lynch to set up a Leaf lynch tomorrow.

So he's my partner trying to get me lynched for tomorrow? Even though we'd control the vote tomorrow?

[Leafsnail]

Using Leaf as town for the sake of your case against me is dangerous. Why would you eliminate a suspect just for the opportunity to kill a different one? If you're town, why are you eliminating the chance that Leaf could be scum? If you're scum, you could be buddying up to Leaf in agreeing with his lynch of me.

Yeah, you're flailing. You're not giving any reason why I'm scum. You're not even pushing me very hard - you haven't bothered to pressure me at all recently and you aren't suggesting that I should be lynched tomorrow if you are today. In short, you are not thinking like a townie.

I've gone over your connection case, and it's just a clear example of scum buddying up to a player who he thinks is on his first game. A newbish townie on your side is valuable for the mafia, so I'm guessing that's what he was aiming for. Besides, buddying to a partner is generally pointless, since they're already on your side. I suppose you could cry shielding, but this is such a risky move with so little potential gain that at best it's null.

I'm now getting a strong town read on CTD, and a slightly weaker one on Sotty. Can't judge the other two since they're not here :/.

[Leafsnail]

I'm fine with a Fate hammer, although I'd like to hear your reasoning for both reads first.

[Leafsnail]

Wait... dramonic... did you really just say you suspect a me/ Fate scumteam? :/

If Fate isn't scum, my suspicion is on dramonic, actually. He's been pushing for a chain lynch far too hard for my liking.

[Leafsnail]

Damn. Didn't think of 4 scum. I found the cop, but it didn't help much...

[Leafsnail]

That's why I thought he wasn't a vig.

My guess is that my ripping into pman after his claim is what caused the scumteam to nail me as the doc. Is that why pman made such a horrible claim?

Also, this setup was pretty anti town. If the SK had stuck around, we could've lost on a single mislynch (we lost on 2 as it was). Then again, with the mafia playing this well, it would've barely mattered.

[Leafsnail]

Best post in the game was:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 92#2116892

by the way.

[Leafsnail]

Very Happy Thanks. It made me grin when I thought of it. Bandwagon-driving is certainly my best townie skill, but my scumhunting isn't great so I normally try to find a good townie like Thesp (oops) to cooperate with.

Mine would be "Not getting lynched", I guess. I somehow managed to avoid getting lynched after killing a vigilante with a Watcher seeing me (and only me) target him, and with the vig swearing I was the last scum player before he died (he'd already shot both my partners). I'm not sure how.

I'm proud to have drawn two doc protects, the SK kill, and a mafia kill. Though absorbing the doc protect as a VT isn't good, it demonstrates that my meta is going in the direction I've been trying to take it: dynamic and obv-town. The only problem with it is when I get assigned a third-party role.

Well, the only other PR I had to protect was CTD, and although I correctly identified him, the scum had already correctly identified me by that point :/.

Is anybody going to 2nd the nomination I made?

No, they deserve to rot in hell for making me lose

Yeah, sure.

[Leafsnail]

You reached acceptance only after you were hammered, pman .

[Leafsnail]

Also, Ythill - if you think someone's scum, they're probably the doc, right?

And I just realised I've been spelling your name wrong for the ENTIRE GAME.

[Leafsnail]

Not just you - seems to be a general thing. I've been in no shortage of games in which the doctor has been lynched on day one.

Actually, in that last one, he was a COMMUNIST SPY claiming doc. We did lynch the doc on day two though .

The third link there is my favourite game ever, by the way