Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER

[Leafsnail]

Can you explain why?

Because I had just replaced in. Pman was my #1 based off notes. Thesp became a target based off my interactions when I started playing. So

I voted him to see other's thoughts

and his reaction.

Lynch time.

[Fate]

Yep.

Go for the easy lynch town! Surely you're not being guided by scum!

[Leafsnail]

You voted someone to see what other people thought about it. Surely if you thought him to be scum it doesn't matter...

And your OMGUS remains terrible.

[Fate]

OMGUS? Me voting you was a OMGUS? Why not find actual, you know, FLAWS in my argument on you?

This makes me all the more confident.

[Leafsnail]

You were defeatist not so long ago, no?

And I can't find flaws in something that's basically non existant.

[Fate]

Non-existent huh. Say it enough times and town will believe you, basic psychology.

So, how do you explain your earlier town read of Pman and his read of you as town? I suppose you just have bad reads?

[Leafsnail]

He was buddying with what he thought was a new player. I misread him at first.

[Leafsnail]

Is anyone else other than Fate still actually playing? Do you have any ideas or thoughts?

[Sotty7]

I'm waiting on the Moriarty replacement really. CTD does make a good case on Fate but I still believe the Kitten/Moriarty slot holds scum.

[Leafsnail]

Eh, double replaces are annoying.

Hmm, Thesp and CTD haven't posted for a while. Thoughts?

[Fate]

Still here. Double replaces are annoying, I don't get why people hate vanillas that much.
*Sig*

[Sotty7]

So you believe the Kitten townie claim 100%... Why?

[Leafsnail]

Y'know, if both you and Kitten are to be believed, we have, at most, 2 PRs. I see no reason why you claimed so early today, nor any reason for you to trust Kitten's claim.

[Sotty7]

Can we get some prods on Thesp and CTD. This is getting a little out of hand.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm sorry for the dismal participation. I'm basically just waiting for Fate to die. He didn't even bother to respond to my last post adressed to him.

Sotty, you asked me what I think about Leaf. I haven't payed much attention to him. This is in part due to him not standing out to me at any point during the game (both in real time and on rereads), and in part because there's people more worthy of my attention (Fate, for sure, and you in a growing capacity).

You also asked me to provide a case against Fate, and I did in a timely fashion. I was bothered by your lack of reaction (you

did

ask for it, after all). It took you half a week to acknowledge it as "a good case", which it is. That you still maintain to push your comparably miniscule point against Kitten/moriarty over it is quite frankly baffling to me.

[Sotty7]

Well at this point I am willing to comprise with a Fate vote. I really didn't like his reaction to Leaf's vote and your case is strong. I was just hoping for more discussion but at this point I don't think that is going to happen.

[Fate]

A RVS vote is NOT an early attack, this connection is null.

CA noticed the connection between Leaf and Pman, as well.

So a RVS vote is not an early attack, but "noticing a connection" in the RVS is completely valid. Thank you for playing. Not to mention that his vote on Pman certainly wasn't just "a RVS vote".

That is debatable. If I were CA I would be able to defend that stance better, so what can I say. I can only defend it through knowing his alignment and guessing.

I think you're suggesting here that CA set up a connection between Leaf and Pman so that later he could bus Pman and mislynch Leaf, really?

I am suggesting that linking town players to a scumpartner is a common scum-strategy, as it opens the door for a variety of plays later down the road, including, but not limited to:
- going after the town player after a successful bus
- easing off the scumpartner after a successful lynch of the town player
- distancing from a scumpartner without outright bussing

The reasons why I think this was the case here (as opposed to CA simply reading one of the guys wrongly or even CA catching two scum):
1. There was no real evidence for a connection
2. the progression of his argument was : "Pman is scum" -> "Leaf is scum for defending him" -> "lynch Leaf", which logically doesn't hold any water since his suspicion of Leaf hinged on Pman being scum. He should have gone after Pman if he actually believed in what he said.
3. I find it far more likely that this was a scum-ploy as opposed to a CA seriously believing he had caught two scum this early in the game (which is compounded by the fact that he focused almost exclusively on Leaf after he had established the "connection")

Leaf being scum hinged on Pman being scum? Well guess what, Pman DID flip scum. So now his connection is valid. Players often see connections like these even though they have little basis with no flips. If we go back later in the game these make sense.

A completely different person than CA, and he has a completely different read of Pman. Understandable? I think so.

Entirely beside the point. The scummy thing is not that his opinion was different than CA's, it's that he chose to specifically comment on Pman/Ellie almost to the exclusion of everything else, and yet didn't even take a clear stance on the issue (defending both players weakly).

See above, Budja has him read a newb town (he was half right).

Thanks for quoting it again. I consider passing off scum as "newb town" a strong scumtell.

Well I don't.There are genuinely newb town players and need to be read with that in mind.

this is the weak defense you're referring to? Pman's arguments are flawed is a defense.

A bit more subtle than the rest, which doesn't make it any better. In this quote, he's justifying Pman being on the wagon while making excuses for him.

See CA and how I can't think what my previous incarnations were thinking.

Look at the REASONS behind a vote, not just the static "oh he unvoted Pman and then voted Thesp." Thesp switched from me to Pman, saying the deadline was closing in, but he didn't put Wicked at L-1. Very odd.

Thesp switched to your top-suspect instead of to the guy you didn't suspect. Where exactly did you see a scummy motive in this?

Where do you see the scummy motive in this? Why would scum switch off his partner onto someone else when his partner wasn't in danger of being lynched?

I notice the only thing you have on me is my "Thesp" vote. And Sotty thinks this is a strong case?

Hmmmm Sotty might be scum trying to look hesitant on my lynch to set up a Leaf lynch tomorrow.

[Leafsnail]

That is debatable. If I were CA I would be able to defend that stance better, so what can I say. I can only defend it through knowing his alignment and guessing.

...If you can't defend that stance without guessing, why use it as part of your case?

Leaf being scum hinged on Pman being scum? Well guess what, Pman DID flip scum. So now his connection is valid. Players often see connections like these even though they have little basis with no flips. If we go back later in the game these make sense.

It makes a hell of a lot more sense if he already knew pman's alignment at the time.

Well I don't.There are genuinely newb town players and need to be read with that in mind.

Newb town and newb scum do act very differently. However, it's an easy way for a partner to avoid interaction with another one.

See CA and how I can't think what my previous incarnations were thinking.[/quote
So why the HELL did you ask for a case based on your predecessors?

Where do you see the scummy motive in this? Why would scum switch off his partner onto someone else when his partner wasn't in danger of being lynched?

"I'm going to ignore the question and instead invoke an obvious case of WIFOM"

Look, you didn't even defend your action or answer the question. You just present the same argument again and again, and phrase it in a way town wouldn't think (town don't tend to defend themselves using interactions with dead mafia members).

Hmmmm Sotty might be scum trying to look hesitant on my lynch to set up a Leaf lynch tomorrow.

So he's my partner trying to get me lynched for tomorrow? Even though we'd control the vote tomorrow?

[CrashTextDummie]

It's nice to get somewhat of an immediate response from someone I'm accusing for a change in this game.

Leaf being scum hinged on Pman being scum? Well guess what, Pman DID flip scum. So now his connection is valid. Players often see connections like these even though they have little basis with no flips. If we go back later in the game these make sense.

QED.

I'm obviously working under the theory that Leaf isn't scum. Hence why this is a popular scum-tactic. And while the "connections" themselves may make sense in hindsight (I don't think they do), the push for one player over the other doesn't.

Well I don't.There are genuinely newb town players and need to be read with that in mind.

Two things:
1. I don't think Pman played particularly newbish.
2. You're right, newb town players exist, and inexperience needs to be considered. However, scum are much more likely to make such blanket statements in my experience. Particularly if the "newb town" player turns up scum.

Where do you see the scummy motive in this? Why would scum switch off his partner onto someone else when his partner wasn't in danger of being lynched?

I'm not in the business of mind-reading, and quite frankly, I don't care. The important thing here is that I don't see the

town motive

. It makes zero sense to me from a pro-town perspective.

I make note of the fact that you have ignored one of the points I raised for no apparent reason.

[Fate]

I asked for a case on my predecessors, knowing it would be a weak case because, by definition, it is false. I tried to defend them as best I could, but all I have is knowledge of their role and not their playstyle, etc.

It makes a hell of a lot more sense if he already knew pman's alignment at the time.

Not really. The case was weak at the time, you can't really expect to lynch someone based off any buddying action. But later on, it gains strength after one person flips. Damage control on me won't make it any better.

(town don't tend to defend themselves using interactions with dead mafia members).

Quote:

I didn't ignore the question. I didn't understand it. CTD, where do I see the scummy motive in what? I thought I was scum?

How do you know this again? Isn't the case on me the interactions with a dead mafia member? Then why the hell WOULDNT I defend myself with the same? You can't have it both ways.

So he's my partner trying to get me lynched for tomorrow? Even though we'd control the vote tomorrow?

Are you claiming scum? Where did I say Sotty was your partner? I think this is a slip. You have it cemented into your mind that you are scum in my eyes (because you actually are), so when I mention another candidate for scum you link it as your partner? Ha.

Conclusion:

Sotty looks at other targets. CTD looks at Sotty. Thesp...posted very little today. Leaf has tunneled me and is not acting pro-town at all. He's pushing this mislynch through aggressively. I hope he is looked at with care tomorrow, unless town wants to turn this ship around now while there's hope.

[Fate]

QED.

I'm obviously working under the theory that Leaf isn't scum. Hence why this is a popular scum-tactic. And while the "connections" themselves may make sense in hindsight (I don't think they do), the push for one player over the other doesn't.

Why are you assuming Leaf isn't scum? Are you so tunneled and arrogant you can't imagine that you could be wrong? Or are you scum and don't care that you're wrong?

I make note of the fact that you have ignored one of the points I raised for no apparent reason.

You don't care? If something has zero scum motive, then why is it used as evidence against them? You can't have it both ways "It makes no sense as town he must be scum." and then BLATANTLY IGNORE, "it makes no sense as scum, he might be town."

Also I didn't ignore. I have no idea what you were trying to ask. Re-word it please.

[Sotty7]

I notice the only thing you have on me is my "Thesp" vote. And Sotty thinks this is a strong case?

Hmmmm Sotty might be scum trying to look hesitant on my lynch to set up a Leaf lynch tomorrow.

CTD provided an extensive case based on yours and your predecessors actions. Isn't this what you wanted Leaf to do? The case is strong when you compile everything together while your case on Leaf seems nothing more than reactionary.

Also, you do realize Leaf is my strongest town read right now? Because that last sentence is just ridiculous.

[Fate]

Reactionary to Pman flipping scum, yes.

What do you think of CTD, Sotty? Just because his case makes sense logically means that he is town?

[CrashTextDummie]

I really don't see how you could not understand me. I thought I made myself pretty clear. I'll humor you though, if just to add to the post-count for Thesp to read through (har, har).

I didn't ignore the question. I didn't understand it. CTD, where do I see the scummy motive in what? I thought I was scum?

I'll rephrase:
Thesp switched from voting

you

to voting

your top suspect

and in the process ignored the wagon on

a person you didn't suspect

. For this you voted him. The question: WHY. What did you see in Thesp's behavior that made you think he was scum considering those circumstances?

Also I didn't ignore. I have no idea what you were trying to ask. Re-word it please.

First of all, not commenting on something = ignoring. Just for the record.

I'll rephrase again:
When Budja entered the game, he commented on

very little

. Out of everything that had happened at that point, he picked out the Pman/Ellie situation and ignored

almost everything else

. This wouldn't be too bothersome if he actually had

any strong stance

on the situation, which would have justified just commenting on that aspect of the game.

As I said at the time, that's lazy at best. The reason I find it actively scummy is that scum have a tendency not to get

into the middle

when one of their buddies is having a go at a townie. Giving weak stances on both parties provides them with the leeway needed to go with the flow as circumstances dictate (which Budja made good use of when he turned on Ellie)).

Furthermore, I find it scummy

precisely

because Budja perceived it to be a "Pman vs. Ellie" situation. It hardly was (It was Ellie vs. a lot of people). As per my point above, this indicates to me a keen awareness on Budja's part that his scumbuddy was having a go at a townie.

There, I italized and everything to make it easier to understand for you.

On to stuff you did understand:

I asked for a case on my predecessors, knowing it would be a weak case because, by definition, it is false.

You get some points for displaying town-thinking ("I know my role, ergo your case is false"). You lose points for not being able to argue against my "weak case" with anything other than "I know my role".

Why are you assuming Leaf isn't scum? Are you so tunneled and arrogant you can't imagine that you could be wrong? Or are you scum and don't care that you're wrong?

I am assuming Leaf is town for the purpose of my case against you. READ: If you are scum, I don't think Leaf is.

It's telling that you're not actually attempting to counter my argument with logic (because you can't), and instead opted to try to discredit me. Ad-hominems are not cool, bro.

You don't care? If something has zero scum motive, then why is it used as evidence against them? You can't have it both ways "It makes no sense as town he must be scum." and then BLATANTLY IGNORE, "it makes no sense as scum, he might be town."

Don't put words in my mouth. In no way am I saying that what you did has "zero scum motive". I merely said I don't have any intention of trying to devine what they are.

Town players generally follow logic and an internal thought process. When someone does something that makes zero sense from a town point of view, it's usually a good sign they're scum. Scum players generally

don't

follow logic and an internal thought process in the same way (although good scum tends to appear that way). They do whatever seems most benefitial to them at the time. There's very little in the game of mafia that makes "zero sense as scum".

You are unable to provide a logically sound reason for your Thesp vote or a thought process that is consistent for a pro-town player. Your only defense is "it doesn't make sense for scum". You used that reasoning even before Pman's alignment was revealed. I'd be willing to lynch you based on that alone.

[Fate]

Well then I'm being lynched for bad town play and the culmination of the bad play of my predecessors. This was a doomed slot to replace into, and I made it worse with my Thesp vote.

I thought it was scummy that he was worried about the deadline approaching, but

did not

put Wicked at L-1 to get a claim out of him.

I have defended myself as best I could, and I did not use only "I know my role." I tried to logically defend the often illogical plays of both my predecessors and myself.

Using Leaf as town for the sake of your case against me is dangerous. Why would you eliminate a suspect just for the opportunity to kill a different one? If you're town, why are you eliminating the chance that Leaf could be scum? If you're scum, you could be buddying up to Leaf in agreeing with his lynch of me.

Don't rule out that Leaf could be scum. If you want to call him town, refute point by point my case against Leaf's buddying with Pman. You haven't commented on my case at all (goes for Sotty and Thesp as well)>