Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER

[My Milked Eek]

Well, he had actually not made a single post, so I decided to post him in particular.

I fail to see how you think not posting after 1 real life day (jase) is worse than posting silly attempts at a wagon (ctd).

But you are. It's easy enough to criticize someone for leaving a couple of people off his list, and a lot harder to try and look at everyone yourself.

I'm not ignoring everyone else, lol. Should I really address everyone once every 10 posts? If I don't address you or don't note anything about you, it's that your behavior doesn't ring any scumdar of mine. I don't believe calling other players town-like is all that helpful.

This is an idle comment intended to make me look more scummy. If you were serious, you'd vote or ask me a followup question.

It was a note for later reference. I find elli more worthy of my vote than you are. Hence it staying where it is.

I'm not saying it is a policy lynch - just that I'm not going to vote Ellibereth just for being unhelpful.

And I quote: "

Ellibereth - Frustratingly unhelpful, but that doesn't make him scum, and I'm not into policy lynches

"

And besides, the two players voting him are not doing it for the unhelpfulness, it's for entirely different reasons. In fact, the unhelpfulness actually came after the votes.

Are you reading the thread?

It got some discussion going, and at the very least, forced a post from every player who's actually here. Although, if you have a problem with his playstyle, why aren't you addressing your qualms to him?

I have, are you reading the thread?

And the only discussion it got going is theorytalk, which isn't favorable and will be moved to MD later as someone (ca?) suggested.

And do you find the answers thesp's questions got to be helpful to the game or not?

[Leafsnail]

I fail to see how you think not posting after 1 real life day (jase) is worse than posting silly attempts at a wagon (ctd).

I didn't say it was worse - just that it came to my attention. And if you think CTD is so worthy of attention... well, why aren't you paying him any?

And besides, the two players voting him are not doing it for the unhelpfulness, it's for entirely different reasons. In fact, the unhelpfulness actually came after the votes.

I'm not saying they are, just that "I'm finding Elli unhelpful and I'm not going to vote him for that". Nothing else.

And do you find the answers thesp's questions got to be helpful to the game or not?

As I say, they got some discussion started, which helps.

And while you have addressed Thesp on other issues, you haven't criticised his questions before, and are asking me why I've overlooked things you haven't done anything about yourself. Why?

[My Milked Eek]

I wasn't the one who wanted to call Jase out on his lurking. That was you.

I do not find any of the things I pointed out you should have pointed out to be worthy of my vote more than elli currently is, but I found it odd that you'd point at Jase and not at the others, while imo, the other things are worse than what Jase was doing, which was not posting for one real life day.

[Wickedestjr]

What was the purpose of the question in red, if the question in green pretty much gives Ellibereth a hint? Also, as for the green question, what told you Ellibereth was looking for reactions? I looked through his posts and I see nothing that indicates that. Those two questions were pointless. Also, it sort of looks like you are trying to help Ellibereth in a subtle manner.

1: Asking questions such as these allows you to look for inconsistency of motive, a powerful scumtell. Often it's not necessarily what people do but how they explain it afterwards that shows their true colours.

2: As for the second question... well, I didn't want him to just post a vague "Looking for reactions" and have done with. It wasn't meant to be a hint, but a possible follow up question.

1: So you were trying to catch Ellibereth contradicting himself?

2: This doesn't make sense to me. How did you even know if Ellibereth was looking for reactions or not? Also, if I interprated both parts of this post correctly, then you have contradicted your self.

Are you saying they are linked then?

They might be. If I was correct about Leaf's motive for asking the second question, then yes they are linked.

That honor goes to Leafsnail who has yet to take a single stance on anything.

That's interesting. Have Thesp, CrashTextDummie, or Ellibereth taken any stance prior to this vote? It also just so happens that out of the several players who haven't taken a stance on anything, you vote for the one with the largest bandwagon! What a coincidence!

What gave you the impression that they were random?

They weren't relevant to anything going on in the game.

Vote: Wickedestjr

just a gut feeling

Hypocrite?

Also, not on topic, but, Wicked, is that one game you've won as town the one I lost as mafia? ;_;

Yeah. The one where town had a huge advantage and I got lynched day 1. (if it hadn't been for the town's advantage, it would have been another loss).

Then he also tries to tie Elli and Leaf together with some weak distancing call. Not buying it.

It wasn't distancing, it looked to me like Leaf might have been trying to help Ellibereth.

[Leafsnail]

1: So you were trying to catch Ellibereth contradicting himself?

Sortof, although it doesn't have to be direct. If he had said something like "It was a BRILLIANT scumseeking ploy!" then we'd be able to compare it to what he posted and see if it was true.

2: This doesn't make sense to me. How did you even know if Ellibereth was looking for reactions or not?

As I said, just a possible followup question. It seemed like the most likely thng for him to be doing.

Also, if I interprated both parts of this post correctly, then you have contradicted your self.

Where?

[My Milked Eek]

Also, not on topic, but, Wicked, is that one game you've won as town the one I lost as mafia? ;_;

Yeah. The one where town had a huge advantage and I got lynched day 1. (if it hadn't been for the town's advantage, it would have been another loss).

That's just sad. For the both of us.

For you, because you would have lost again.
And for me, because your only win is against me.

[Sotty7]

It is interesting how pman calls you an "innocent townie" and that you have a town read on him.

This is an idle comment intended to make me look more scummy. If you were serious, you'd vote or ask me a followup question.

I don't think it was a idle comment at all, it was a good observation. You don't have to be asking questions 24/7 to be serious.

[pman5595]

Vote: Wickedestjr

just a gut feeling

Hypocrite?

If nobody could tell, I was being extremely sarcastic with that vote and the comments afterward, and they were meant to show Elli how annoying what he is doing is.

unvote: Wickedestjr

Unvote, Vote: Pman

pman because of his hopping all over the place and pushing an unhelpful circular line of thought/argument with Elli.

jumping all over the place? please enlighten me.

about the whole crap with Elli, is there a problem trying to get someone to explain why they voted someone? is that really a scumtell now?

And if you are voting because of gut, explain why you get that gut feeling, as it obviously couldn't have come out of nowhere.

[Kitten4u]

I did not say asking the question made him pro-town. I said it did not make him scummy. People were using that as a reason for their vote. I also did not say that asking the question means he is scum hunting. I said I thought he was just taking it seriously and trying to hunt scum instead of joking around and doing nothing for the town *coughELLIBERETHcough*

You said this:

All he has done the entire thread is point out a rule that contradicts the basics of a game of mafia, and ask Ellibereth if there was a purpose for the jokes. Trying to be serious and hunt scum is now a scumtell? everyone on that bandwagon needs to think about it a little more.

No. Excuse me for opposing a bandwagon on an innocent townie.

So you don't think those things make him look townish?

Since you're only focusing on me, you must be very sure that I'm in the mafia. Why?

Saying I'm "very sure" isn't really accurate, but yeah you're my strongest scum read right now. As for why. Well, you answered that question yourself so I have no idea why you felt the need to ask me.

You say my questions aren't relevant, and could be done by scum.

Did you want me to elaborate or something? Because I can do that.

Basically, I'm voting for you for two reasons. The first is that you didn't take a stance on anyone until I called you out on it. I think scum is more likely to do this because they want to avoid connecting themselves to anyone; when someone flips town they don't want to have to take responsibility for being on the wagon (because it makes them look bad) and they don't want to connect themselves to their buddies for obvious reasons. Basically, I believe that not having a stance is a large part of what staying under the radar entails.

However, if scum just did that they would get caught pretty quickly. A nice, easy way to look productive without actually saying anything is to ask a bunch of questions without really doing anything with them. These questions may or may not be relevant, but most of the time they are pretty reactionary. That is the vibe I get from your questions.

tl;dr case: Staying under the radar and active lurking.

pman because of his hopping all over the place

Can you explain what's giving you this impression?

That's interesting. Have Thesp, CrashTextDummie, or Ellibereth taken any stance prior to this vote? It also just so happens that out of the several players who haven't taken a stance on anything, you vote for the one with the largest bandwagon! What a coincidence!

1.) I call Thesp out in the same post.
2.) CTD had the "I don't like MME" stance.
3.) Elli had voted for Leafy before I posted.

So with the exception of Thesp, whom I also call out in the same post, yes, everyone else had taken at least once stance imo.

---

And time for other comments.

I had forgotten that CTD and Jase were actually playing. I agree that they need to say more. I'd also like to hear a bit more from Sotty.

The pman/Elli argument seems null to me. It just looked like a clash of people that disagree with a certain play style. I personally agree that gut is a perfectly acceptable reason to vote (I find way more scum on gut than logic), but I don't think pman is scummy for trying to get Elli to explain the vote.

[pman5595]

I did not say asking the question made him pro-town. I said it did not make him scummy. People were using that as a reason for their vote. I also did not say that asking the question means he is scum hunting. I said I thought he was just taking it seriously and trying to hunt scum instead of joking around and doing nothing for the town *coughELLIBERETHcough*

You said this:

All he has done the entire thread is point out a rule that contradicts the basics of a game of mafia, and ask Ellibereth if there was a purpose for the jokes. Trying to be serious and hunt scum is now a scumtell? everyone on that bandwagon needs to think about it a little more.

No. Excuse me for opposing a bandwagon on an innocent townie.

So you don't think those things make him look townish?

I said in a later post that I don't really have significant reads on anyone yet. It is too early for me.

Those things make leaf unworthy of a bandwagon, IMO, and that was what I was trying to get across.

[Leafsnail]

tl;dr case: Staying under the radar and active lurking.

Hahahaha. You're accusing me of "staying under the radar"? You're accusing the same Leafsnail who has the most votes and is making the biggest effort to scumhunt of "active lurking"? Pah.

And the "You didn't take any stances" is bullcrap. I was clearly pushing Ellibereth and ConfidAnon to try and establish opinions. Fine, I wasn't doing ridiculous "LOL HE'S SCUM" random voting, but you should've been able to see what I was doing.

And yes, you did "call Thesp out", but you didn't make any accusations against him. So, basically, you used the vague notion that I was "Not taking stances" as an excuse to jump on my bandwagon.

Unvote

.

Vote: Kitten4u

. So, why was I scummy while Thesp, CTD (who was RVing) and Ellibereth ("It's just gut") weren't? Why did you choose to go for the guy who was on his first game on mafiascum and who already had 3 votes on him? And, most importantly, in what possible sense am I "staying under the radar"?

[Kitten4u]

You're accusing the same Leafsnail who has the most votes and is making the biggest effort to scumhunt of "active lurking"?

1.) I don't see what having the most votes has to do with anything.
2.) I don't believe you were really scum hunting. Again, the vibe I get from all your questions is that you were trying to look busy when you weren't doing anything as I said. Obviously if I thought you were scum hunting with those questions I wouldn't be voting for you.

And the "You didn't take any stances" is bullcrap. I was clearly pushing Ellibereth and ConfidAnon to try and establish opinions. Fine, I wasn't doing ridiculous "LOL HE'S SCUM" random voting, but you should've been able to see what I was doing.

I don't get that impression from your posts.

And yes, you did "call Thesp out", but you didn't make any accusations against him. So, basically, you used the vague notion that I was "Not taking stances" as an excuse to jump on my bandwagon.

Um no...?

So, why was I scummy while Thesp, CTD (who was RVing) and Ellibereth ("It's just gut") weren't?

-Thesp also had no stances which bugged me and that's why I called him out on it. However, I didn't get the vibe that he was trying to look active without really saying anything from him like I do from you, so I considered him less scummy than you.

-As for the other guys I stated my opinion here:

2.) CTD had the "I don't like MME" stance.
3.) Elli had voted for Leafy before I posted.

Well first off, CTD is scummy, but your lack of stances worried me more than his weirdness.
And I consider gut a perfectly valid reason to vote for someone.

Why did you choose to go for the guy who was on his first game on mafiascum and who already had 3 votes on him?

Because I think you're scum.

And, most importantly, in what possible sense am I "staying under the radar"?

It was more of a were than an are. Again, read what I said. I get the feeling that you were asking questions to try to look active without actually saying anything. I feel like you were trying to avoid connecting yourself to other players and the only reason you stopped doing so was because of the bandwagon on you. It's kind of hard to stay under the radar when there's four people that want you dead.

Also, I might have picked the wrong word/phrase to describe what I was feeling. So, if it is, ignore the phrase and pay attention to exactly what I'm saying.

[ConfidAnon]

ConfidAnon - The most scummy player, in my eyes. Seems determined to kick me over small things, but doesn't seem to be making any attempt to establish whether I'm scum or not.

OMGUS noted.

Anyways, I apologize for the lack of solid content, I've been pretty busy lately.

This is an idle comment intended to make me look more scummy. If you were serious, you'd vote or ask me a followup question.

That's a big stretch.

I REALLY need time when I can read over the thread and think clearly, and right now I don't have either. I should get out of school early tomorrow (or not have it at all) due to weather, so I'll try my hardest to get my head in the game then.

[Oman]

Oman - Your meta-grounds for voting seem fairly weak. Is his behaviour extremely different in this game?

Not different enough that I'm tunnelvisioned. Different enough to twig something in me.

Also, I'm aware that it's weak, but I think it's the best we've got.

[Thesp]

I had our weekly game night last night and work has been busy, so I should have a good post tonight. I haven't forgotten about you all!

[Sotty7]

jumping all over the place? please enlighten me.

about the whole crap with Elli, is there a problem trying to get someone to explain why they voted someone? is that really a scumtell now?

And if you are voting because of gut, explain why you get that gut feeling, as it obviously couldn't have come out of nowhere.

Nowhere did I say my vote was on gut. Why did you even ask that question?

When I say hopping I around that's just what I mean. You jumped on Elli and kept pushing him to answer his question. He wouldn't, while I agree that isn't helpful, neither is you asking that question over and over just to get the same result. You then proceeded to

unvote

him for a sarcastic vote that means what exactly? Are you even suspicious of Wicked at all?

You have since unvoted again but didn't bother to place your vote back on Elli, why not? Is he annoying or is he scummy? If it is the latter where is your vote? If it is the former why aren't you scum hunting?

Also this please:

How do you know Leaf is an innocent townie?

That's just my inference from his posts so far. He is just scumhunting.

Still that is quite a leap. What parts of his scum hunting do you agree with in particular?

tl;dr case: Staying under the radar and active lurking.

No. Leaf is anything but UtR and I think he has been one of the players actively pushing the game forward. What do you think of CTD?

Preview edit: I see you do give some thoughts on CTD later. Can you post exactly what Leaf was doing that makes you think he was fake scum hunting or trying to slip under the radar?

Can you explain what's giving you this impression?

If my answer to pman up there ^ doesn't explain it enough for you then let me know.

Oman - Your meta-grounds for voting seem fairly weak. Is his behaviour extremely different in this game?

Not different enough that I'm tunnelvisioned. Different enough to twig something in me.

Also, I'm aware that it's weak, but I think it's the best we've got.

Oman, what do you think of pman and Leaf?

[Leafsnail]

1.) I don't see what having the most votes has to do with anything.
2.) I don't believe you were really scum hunting. Again, the vibe I get from all your questions is that you were trying to look busy when you weren't doing anything as I said. Obviously if I thought you were scum hunting with those questions I wouldn't be voting for you.

But even if you thought I was active lurking and only trying to appear to do something, there's no way that's equivalent to "Staying under the radar". As for me the votes... well, isn't the point of staying under the radar to avoid scrutiny and votes?

What makes you think that my questions to Ellibereth weren't useful while, say, CTD's random attack on MME was?
-Thesp also had no stances which bugged me and that's why I called him out on it. However, I didn't get the vibe that he was trying to look active without really saying anything from him like I do from you, so I considered him less scummy than you.

And I'm asking you to explain this "vibe".

And I consider gut a perfectly valid reason to vote for someone.

And it is - there's nothing wrong with voting someone on a gut suspicion. However, there is something wrong with voting someone on a gut suspicion and making no attempt to draw out more solid evidence on them while keeping your vote on them anyway. In addition, you didn't follow up your question ("So who's scum?") at all, perhaps indicating that you didn't care about my answer.

OMGUS noted.

I tend to scrutinize those jumping on bandwagons early, even if the person being jumped on is me. OMGUS is not necessarily a scumtell.

[Wickedestjr]

As I said, just a possible followup question. It seemed like the most likely thng for him to be doing.

Then what was the point of the first question? In other words, if you had only asked the first question, what purpose would it have served? If you thought that he was looking for reactions then it seems wierd that you'd feel the need to ask that first question.

Where?

First you say you are trying to see if Ellibereth's responses are inconsistent and you also say that the second question is just a possible follow-up question. The way you said "just a possible follow-up question" seemed to me like it wasn't really that important of a question. Also, you claim that the most likely reason for Ellibereth's behavior was to get reactions yet ask him why he acted that way? It doesn't make sense to me.


Will make another post in a few minutes.

[Wickedestjr]

1.) I call Thesp out in the same post.
2.) CTD had the "I don't like MME" stance.
3.) Elli had voted for Leafy before I posted.

So with the exception of Thesp, whom I also call out in the same post, yes, everyone else had taken at least once stance imo.

1.) Okay, but why do you choose Leaf instead?
2.) Were you happy with that RVS stance?
3.) Were you happy with that "gut" influenced stance?

Also, what do you consider to be a stance? What kind of stances would you be happy with?


Also...

Unvote: Leafsnail Vote: Kitten4u

. I dislike the reasons for her vote. She votes Leafsnail for not taking any stances when we were about 70 posts into the game and we were just getting out of the RVS imo. Also there were a few other players who she could have voted for similar reasons. It also just so happens that Leaf had the largest bandwagon at the time of her vote.

I am not as suspicious of Leaf as I was before because I don't see Kitten and Leaf being partners and I think Kitten is more suspicious, but I would still like responses to my questions from Leaf.

I also like the suspicions of ConfidAnon, would like to hear more from CTD and want to see a post from Jase.

[Jase]

Sorry for the delay everyone! Confirming and catching up now.

[Kitten4u]

I see you do give some thoughts on CTD later. Can you post exactly what Leaf was doing that makes you think he was fake scum hunting or trying to slip under the radar?

Again, I'm getting the feeling that I'm using the wrong words to describe what I'm seeing. Well, hopefully this'll clear things up.

Why would that be, My Milked Eek? Do you regard a willingness to jump on such bandwagons as a towntell or a scumtell?

For what reason, ConfidAnon? Do you think that starting semirandom bandwagons early on is a good way to get discussion started?

Also, since I haven't played a game with you before, why do you dislike RVS? Do you fear a hammer vote could randomly be reached or do you just think it's childish?

I'm not 100% sure why those quotes are bothering me, but if I had to guess it's because they ask questions with obvious answers and those answers revolve more around game theory than anything else.

Uh... actually, looking at the OP, rule 6 implies that even the mafia members cannot communicate with each other at all. Mod: Can the mafia members talk to each other? If so, how?

Ellibereth - If someone explicitly tells me they are not joking, I generally take that as an indication that they are not joking (I have it marked as the first serious attack on my notes). So, if it was, in fact, a joke, what were you hoping to gain out of it? What reactions were you looking for?

These two strike me as disingenuous, particularly the last one because he said this. Unless I was supposed to take him totally seriously that he thought I was scum because I had Mafia Scum under my name.

So that's what I was seeing. "Staying under the radar" may not be the right term for what I'm seeing, so I'll try to describe it again. Basically, I feel like he was trying to avoid connections with other players, but since doing that would make him look lurktastic and scummy I feel like he opted to ask a bunch of irrelevant/semi-relevant/reactionary questions to make it look like he was doing something.

Am I making any sense?

And Leafy, did the above answer what you wanted me to answer?

In addition, you didn't follow up your question ("So who's scum?") at all, perhaps indicating that you didn't care about my answer.

After reading your list I asked the only question I had and that was regarding your town read on Elli. I didn't really have any questions for anything else, and considering I'm calling you scummy for asking irrelevant questions it should be obvious why I didn't want to ask any questions I didn't feel were relevant.

1.) Okay, but why do you choose Leaf instead?
2.) Were you happy with that RVS stance?
3.) Were you happy with that "gut" influenced stance?

1.) I didn't feel like Thesp was trying hard to look active, so he didn't look as scummy.
2.) Not particularly, but it was better than having none.
3.) Gut influenced is fine by me. I do wish he would try to pinpoint his gut, but I don't think he's really scummy for not doing so.

Also, what do you consider to be a stance? What kind of stances would you be happy with?

_____ should be lynched. ______ idea is bad. _____ is scummy. I think ____ looks better/worse than ____ after that. Really anything that ties players together that we can look at later once we have flips. Obviously, these things should be game relevant and not theory-based or something like that (IE, I don't consider Thesp's thing against the RVS a stance) I think scum will avoid doing this because it's easier to avoid being held accountable for anything and it would make them less likely to be lynched.

Saying ____ is scummy because of ____ is better imo, but after reading several games I've found that town is just as likely to make baseless votes as scum is, so I don't really consider it a scumtell to not explain votes anymore.

[My Milked Eek]

I think you got some quotes messed up, I remember that quote being directed at me coming from Thesp, not Leaf.

[Ellibereth]

Leaf, why did you ask the following question: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 42#2041742

[Jase]

Ok, Just finished reading, and it looks to me like eli has a good shot at being scum. He's been more or less useless so far, and with no apparent attempts to change that. Sure being unhelpful is not necessarily scummy, but I get the impression that he's doing so deliberately.

Kitten: I think the phrase you might be looking for is "active lurking". Though I'm inclined to disagree with these assertions.

I don't have much else to say at the moment, but I intend to get to grips with what's happening and express various opinions and such in short order.

[Thesp]

Thesp, why the confid vote?

I don't like his Leafsnail vote, for starters.

ConfidAnon - The most scummy player, in my eyes. Seems determined to kick me over small things, but doesn't seem to be making any attempt to establish whether I'm scum or not. Inconsistent motive for his original vote on me. I would like you to explain the disparity between your more recent post and the post where you voted me.

*hifive*

Feels like epic reaching to me, I see nothing wrong with the question you asked. Then he also tries to tie Elli and Leaf together with some weak distancing call. Not buying it.

I actually thought wickedestjr as genuinely trying here, and I'm not seeing the connection between him and pman5595.

They weren't relevant to anything going on in the game.

I disagree - they help me get a feel on players in the game.

If nobody could tell, I was being extremely sarcastic with that vote and the comments afterward, and they were meant to show Elli how annoying what he is doing is. unvote: Wickedestjr

I couldn't tell.

The Kitten4u attention is distracting from the ConfidAnon wagon, which needs more votes. I'll switch to Ellibereth if necessary. I'm down for a lurker-wagon if I have to, but I hope we won't have need of that.