899 FABLES- THE GRIMMAFIA GAME - The End. Mod Sucks.

[MordyS]

Vote: Grimmy

[MordyS]

Vote: Rayfrost

He doesn't appear to like people being up in his face. I'm feeling contrarian.

[MordyS]

kpaca:

Why you up in my face?

That's what my vote was referencing. I guess you missed it.

Point taken on the PR's, though I'd still like people to clarify. If they are trying to do something else with it, then I suppose they could just say it's a pr and explain later if needed.

Oh noes.

Vote: kpaca

[MordyS]

What bothers me is the explain later part.

[MordyS]

(Also, yes, this focus on people rhyming is a good way to take an easily defensible, not particularly contentious -- or scummy to be sure -- position. It's not scumhunting. Now, you may believe that rhyming makes it more difficult to scumhunt, and thereby request that people not do it unless they must. But to use rhyming as the foundation of your scumhunting screams opportunistic scum tactic to me. And your response to my vote -- "just so I'm clear mordy, you're voting me for wanting people to not rhyme if they didn't have to" -- strikes me as more as the same. God forbid your position draw fire or something?)

[MordyS]

Why wouldn't you push someone for lying about a post restriction? That seems like a pretty anti-town thing to do. I mean, I guess I could understand someone faking a PR to have a bit more fun, and then refusing to back down out of some kind of misguided staunchness. But wouldn't that person deserve a little censure? Or at least a little pushing?

[MordyS]

I really hope you're just sharing your gut feeling and not softclaiming information, because there's hardly enough pressure on Sociopath to make that worthwhile.

[MordyS]

My vote wasn't counted either, guess mod is requiring the unvote.

Unvote
Vote: kpaca

[MordyS]

I did explain that post, Mina. But if you're still confused, go back and read RayFrost in iso and it'll become immediately clear what I was referring to.

[MordyS]

Kpaca hasn't posted since Monday, which is coincidentally since the pressure started to come down hard on him. Townies fight for their lives, scum hide until the pressure blows over imo.

[MordyS]

I can link to some traditional scum games. Activity isn't a good barometer for my alignment. At the moment I'm kinda busy (I just finished a very intensive game too, which Mina was following, and which culminating in a heart-breaking loss, so I'm a tad burnt out on copious posting -- it'll increase).

As for kpaca, I understand why you're confused, but you shouldn't be. There are two positions here and you're conflating them. On one hand there's my position on faking PR restrictions (I believe it's anti-town). However, I assume they're not fake unless there's a reason to believe otherwise. I've seen no reason to believe otherwise. And I'm willing to admit that there may be very extenuating circumstances that would make faking a PR restriction not 100% anti-town. (For example someone mentioned giving cover to a PR player.) That said, I'd never fake one for pro-town reasons, and I find that very iffy. In other words, I'm a tad conflicted about it, and it certainly isn't going to drive my scumhunting. Which leads obviously to this next point:

Since Mordy thinks it's "anti-town" to fake one, you'd think he'd have participated in that discussion. Instead, he suspects kpaca--who has been the biggest voice against faking posting restrictions--for not pushing hard enough against them.

I'm not willing to base my scumhunting off this and just because I may think it's scummy doesn't give that a free pass to people who agree. And in fact, someone could scumhunt based on it and I'll find that very scumhunting scummy. Which brings us to the second position, kpaca's position.

On one hand he believes that he should hunt people for faking PR's, and that even constitutes the bulk (if not the entirety) of his scum-hunting. But simultaneously he says he won't push people for doing so. If you won't push people on it, why bring it up? If it's scummy enough to mention it's scummy enough to push on. If it isn't scummy enough to mention, why bring it up unless you're trying to create the facade of scumhunting. (Not to mention that in my opinion, he WAS scumhunting with it, and when he came under fire he backed off.)

[MordyS]

I understand, there's this theory that fake-PR's cloud the text enough to give the scum-player a way to avoid analysis. I'm skeptical of that theory however. PR's tend to draw more attention to the person, not less, and outside your DGB example, I'm not aware of many successful scum attempts to duck heat by using a fake-PR. I could maybe buy an idiot scumster trying a fake-PR because they believe it'll help, maybe. But I don't think it'll actually help.

[MordyS]

Yeah. I feel kinda low-key. First I was just distracted by that other game and then -- meh. Well, you saw the finale. I even thought about replacing out cause I was so disappointed, but I figure I'll be happier if I just get more involved in a new game. Anyway, here's some regular game scum meta:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11594

[MordyS]

That and the Movie Madness games were the only two games where I've been scum on the forums. You can drop by the IRC channel tho and watch me play there. I'm there fairly often.

[MordyS]

Meh. It wasn't my fault I was lynched D2. My partner was completely spaced out the entire game. She did the most ineffectual bussing I've ever seen.

[MordyS]

Name one piece of WIFOM'y logic I used.

[MordyS]

My uncertainty about the faking PR issue is one thing, but certainly not WIFOM. And I don't know what you want me to do with regard to my scumplay. My records can be read openly. Not only won't I speculate about how my play differs as town from scum (it's inane speculation), but I can't. If I have some secret scumtell, I don't know it or I'd eliminate it. I didn't offer my scum games. They were asked. You're kind of being a bitch for yelling at me for linking to a game that was requested. Would it have been better that I refuse altogether?

Finally, I've offered attacks on the person I believe is scum, and you haven't noted them at all. Yes, my posts w/r/t this PR issue are flakey. This isn't my issue. I'm not attacking people with PR restrictions and I didn't bring it up. My case is that the person pursuing it was doing so disingenuously. Have you failed to notice this because you failed to read carefully, or because you realize people are getting impatient for your read and so you're willing to offer a half-ass bullshit accusation to stem the bleeding?

By the way, from your post I posit you don't know what the term WIFOM means. My acknowledgment that a faked PR restriction could be a null tell actually means I have sidestepped the landmine that constitutes WIFOM. You appear to be confusing my own acknowledgment of WIFOM with making a WIFOM argument myself. I suggest you take a little more time, reread, and come back with something substantial.

[MordyS]

You feel bad for me? Whatever, man. Apparently I'm scummy because I didn't preemptively warn people that my scum-archives might be out of date, even though I don't have a more recent one to offer, and because I acknowledged my split feelings on an issue. Whatever. I don't feel they're scummy actions and I think your vote is misplaced. But feel free to push on that if you really feel they're indicative of scum.

[MordyS]

I think voting for someone inherently suggests they are scummy. You don't need to say it. Do you feel differently?

[MordyS]

So the things you brought up were simply supporting your gut feeling? It looked a lot like "facts" to me. If you intended they all be taken with a grain of salt you should've said as much.

[MordyS]

Also, you're wrong. I'm not scum. I think you're wrong to point to those things as scummy, and your gut feeling is off. If they are simply gut feelings, though, I can't argue them with you since they aren't arguments or facts. If you feel I'm wishy-washy, or hard to read, I think I explained that much earlier on. My attention was on another game, and then I was feeling fairly sedated after I lost in it. That might account for the feeling you're getting from me.

Let me say this about the Movie Madness game. I never considered the no-reveal in my play, and I'm not sure that would've made a difference. I think you can accurately read that game as my scumplay. However, a caveat: I don't think I play differently as scum than as town. So I don't know what value it'll have. Also I think RayFrost is being opportunistic here.

[MordyS]

It's not that his observations are unbelievable. It's that I feel they are mischaracterizing my play.

[MordyS]

He's observing that I engaged in WIFOM. However he ignores the context. I'm explaining why I feel fake-PR hunting is a bad scumhunting tactic. I explain that, partially, by examining my own ambiguity over the issue. There is WIFOM, but it's not WIFOM I'm engaging in. It's technically speaking WIFOM I'm calling kpaca out on (tho not even, since he's not expressing ambiguity -- technically he may believe fake-PR is totally worth hunting on, though he's since backed off that proposition). So he's observing a facet of my case, but failing to contextualize it. So I feel misrepresented.

[MordyS]

If that's the case, that's a total other thing. But my impression was that ABR was accusing me of using WIFOM conversations and arguments to avoid leaving a breadtrail and slip beneath the radar. I felt that was unfair and misrepresentative.

[MordyS]

Why were you trying to figure out whether ABR would vote with you? That sounds like a bizarre reason to vote for someone, and maybe a bit like you're covering your vote.

[MordyS]

Ok, after that last little bit of a post I've gotten wonder if kpaca is active lurking. This is ridiculous. He's got this huge wagon on him and instead of protest or argue with the cases against him he's basically disappeared from the thread.

[MordyS]

Since when do off-topic comments get to be spoken out of Post Restriction? Is that for real?

[MordyS]

I think he hasn't commented since Jan 14th. This game in general is hard to get a grip on since people aren't really playing much. For instance, kpaca is a heartbeat away from being lynched and he's barely said a word. What exactly is going on with this game?

[MordyS]

No, not really. I don't have a scumtell on him, certainly. His comments were early enough in the game that they could've been controversial for the sake of eliciting reactions to scumhunt, or because he didn't have much else to go on. I remember thinking when he attacked you, Mina, for defending kpaca (I think kpaca?) that I kinda agreed with him. But it was so long ago that I can barely remember the details of the case. The lurking / disappearing is anti-town, but he's hardly the only offender on that count. If those comments were instead indicative of scumminess (making disingenuous arguments to try and mislynch a town player -- you, possibly) I'd have to see more examples than we have to confirm it. I just don't feel we have enough.

[MordyS]

I've read the full Fables series to date. There is a magic mirror character, but I don't remember it figuring in very seriously with the plot that this game theme is supposed to encompass. Tho there is a Snow White figure who is central to the storyline.

[MordyS]

@Mina, here's what I think -- and I've been mulling it over for a few days. I think kpaca/Sanhora is scum. And I think ABR agreed with that and wanted to do the lynch before the inevitable replacement fending off attacks happened. When his vote failed, I think he got frustrated and requested a replacement. I don't know ABR very well, but he's supposedly an experienced player. Would an experienced player try to "quickhammer" town? Especially one Day One? If the lynch had gone through he would've been under intense scrutiny the next day. And I've seen nothing compelling to move my vote from kpaca. I do however, Mina, find you scummy -- even tho no one has followed up DoS's comments, I agree with them in full force at this time. I don't think ABR is scum. It doesn't make sense to me.

[MordyS]

Sanhora's towntell

lulz

[MordyS]

How in the world would you have any idea if it's a
mislynch or not?

[MordyS]

You know what I'm thinking? That Sanhora has extra information, and he's trying to trap you in a lie. And you're afraid of slipping and giving yourself away.

Do you really believe this is true? Can you explain it a bit more, cause I can think of like a dozen things wrong with this assertion. Not only does it seem unsupported, but Sanhora asked for a claim. If Sanhora has information relating to a claim, that could theoretically vindicate/condemn him -- it's not really the kind of thing that gets contradicted. Also, asking for claims before they're necessary is WAAAAAY anti-town. Check this out!

* Some of you, make that MANY of you, risk severe consequences if you CC or share information unwisely. You have been warned.

Oh hai guyz, I've got an idea. Let's help the town out by possibly forcing some of these people to claim before it's necessary because you MAY/(MAY NOT) have role related information that you could use to trap them in a contradiction. GOOD THINKING.

Btw, re my list of who I think is scummy: Nope. I'm voting for who I think scum is.

[MordyS]

But you know, could you, um, react to anything else I've said? Particularly the parts in which I've called you scum?

If you insist.

I feel kind of guilty for this vote, because Mordy isn't the most antitown player out there. But at least I can buy that my problems with my other suspects are playstyle-related. This is light-years away from Mordy's town meta. It's unfair to penalize him for having played well in another game, but such is life.

Bummer. I'm scum because, even though I'm not the most antitown player out there, my play here is different than my town meta.

And what possible reason do you have for not wanting to give your suspect tiers? Your only suspect is Sanhora (and possibly me, although you still haven't written that case you asked for)? What possible townie motives could you have for not ranking your top suspicions?

Unproductive, not really my style, and I can see good reasons for not doing it that I'd rather not share with you.

[MordyS]

Its a legitimate cause for concern.

Is it? Then why aren't you attacking me or voting for me? How legitimate is it? How is it legitimate?

By the way, Mina, you wanted a list of suspects. I won't give you one, but that comment of Sociopath's just put him in my top tiers. It's sneaky scummy gameplay -- attempting to attack people (or legitimize attacks on people) without actually following through or pursuing the comment.

[MordyS]

Let me guess, you are one of those people that scream, 'META IS USELESS! IGNORE IT!'

Nope. I'm one of those people who scream, (or say), if you believe my meta differs from my town meta is troubling ways, please explain and illustrate why. If you don't, I've gotta assume you're just blowing smoke. I'm also one of those people who feel blowing smoke is scum behavior 101.

[MordyS]

I'm still interested in playing -- though I'll admit this year long deadline has put me in an apathetic state of mind. For the record, I still think Sanhora is scummy, and I think Sociopath is scum too. Why exactly isn't he voting for anyone?

[MordyS]

If we can confirm MM's role, why don't we? He can mess up again, then try to vote for someone. If the vote goes through he's a liar and we lynch him. If it doesn't, his PR is confirmed.

[MordyS]

If we have a Rapunzel this game should be broken already.

[MordyS]

Unvote
Vote: Monkeyman

[MordyS]

Vote: Apathetic

Happy with whatever the majority decides.