899 FABLES- THE GRIMMAFIA GAME - The End. Mod Sucks.

[MordyS]

Name one piece of WIFOM'y logic I used.

[Iecerint]

Mordy's scum performance in the posted game was very one-dimensional. In short, she exclusively lurkerhunts and distances from literally every non-lurker wagon. (It could be that they were all actually crap wagons. I only read her iso, so I dunno.) I'd encourage you to glance through her in isolation in that game.

It's true that that was 6 months ago, though, and she's had a superior (but no-reveal) scum performance since then.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Name one piece of WIFOM'y logic I used.

The whole thing around the fake post restriction issue, for one. You acknowledge its anti-town -and hence scummy- but in the same breath you preempt any accusation by saying it could be town having fun, getting caught and refusing to back down.

If it isn't scummy enough to mention, why bring it up unless you're trying to create the facade of scumhunting.

This also strikes me the wrong way, doesn't seem genuine.

Another WIFOMY implication is that you have a certain playstyle as scum and you don't deviate from that. Even though its Iecerint that brought it up, you don't give any indication to how you would instead play as scum in the present, or what you've learned in comparison to your previous games as mafia. I'm certainly not going to look through your other games to cross-reference your m.o., and definitely not with a game you played as scum from 6 months ago.

I understand, there's this theory that fake-PR's cloud the text enough to give the scum-player a way to avoid analysis. I'm skeptical of that theory however. PR's tend to draw more attention to the person, not less, and outside your DGB example, I'm not aware of many successful scum attempts to duck heat by using a fake-PR. I could maybe buy an idiot scumster trying a fake-PR because they believe it'll help, maybe. But I don't think it'll actually help.

This is another example of post I automatically sift through pretty unimpressed. You talk about whether or not claiming a power role would be a successful tactic to avoid attention. Then you say maybe it could be a scum doing it, but by the wording you also admit that it could be town doing it.

This is a trend in your posting to date. Once processed, it's like quicksand, it doesn't give anything to hold onto, no compromising positions, nothing that would leave a trail on day 2 once we get some role reveals. You can say that I see you beating around the bush. So that's why I'm voting you.

[Albert B. Rampage]

EBWOP

You talk about whether or not faking a post restriction would be a successful tactic to avoid attention.

[MordyS]

My uncertainty about the faking PR issue is one thing, but certainly not WIFOM. And I don't know what you want me to do with regard to my scumplay. My records can be read openly. Not only won't I speculate about how my play differs as town from scum (it's inane speculation), but I can't. If I have some secret scumtell, I don't know it or I'd eliminate it. I didn't offer my scum games. They were asked. You're kind of being a bitch for yelling at me for linking to a game that was requested. Would it have been better that I refuse altogether?

Finally, I've offered attacks on the person I believe is scum, and you haven't noted them at all. Yes, my posts w/r/t this PR issue are flakey. This isn't my issue. I'm not attacking people with PR restrictions and I didn't bring it up. My case is that the person pursuing it was doing so disingenuously. Have you failed to notice this because you failed to read carefully, or because you realize people are getting impatient for your read and so you're willing to offer a half-ass bullshit accusation to stem the bleeding?

By the way, from your post I posit you don't know what the term WIFOM means. My acknowledgment that a faked PR restriction could be a null tell actually means I have sidestepped the landmine that constitutes WIFOM. You appear to be confusing my own acknowledgment of WIFOM with making a WIFOM argument myself. I suggest you take a little more time, reread, and come back with something substantial.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You're kind of being a bitch for yelling at me for linking to a game that was requested. Would it have been better that I refuse altogether?

Wow, wtf. You're even ruder than me. I'll quote what I said:

Another WIFOMY implication is that you have a certain playstyle as scum and you don't deviate from that. Even though its Iecerint that brought it up, you don't give any indication to how you would instead play as scum in the present, or what you've learned in comparison to your previous games as mafia.

What I

said

, and what you should have

read

, is that it would be more appropriate for you to mention in passing how your historical scumplay might be outdated. Way to strawman me.

Finally, I've offered attacks on the person I believe is scum, and you haven't noted them at all. Yes, my posts w/r/t this PR issue are flakey. This isn't my issue. I'm not attacking people with PR restrictions and I didn't bring it up. My case is that the person pursuing it was doing so disingenuously. Have you failed to notice this because you failed to read carefully, or because you realize people are getting impatient for your read and so you're willing to offer a half-ass bullshit accusation to stem the bleeding?

I've read your lack of a case on kpaca so quit badtripping. I don't like your confusing circular reasoning. I don't feel that you're playing a game to find a minority of roles. Is there a reason you can't deal with that?

By the way, from your post I posit you don't know what the term WIFOM means. My acknowledgment that a faked PR restriction could be a null tell actually means I have sidestepped the landmine that constitutes WIFOM. You appear to be confusing my own acknowledgment of WIFOM with making a WIFOM argument myself. I suggest you take a little more time, reread, and come back with something substantial.

You fail to frustrate me. Dude, you just

fail

.

This is the kind of WIFOM you are implying:"Town could fake a PR because they are bored, but scum could fake a PR to look town."

Yeah, that's kind of WIFOM. I didn't say that you wrote any fallacies. I just said that your posts contain a high amount of this wifomy talk that isn't really helping anyone.

Neways, you seem very mad, using big words like "bitch", calling whatever I say "half-ass bullshit", pseudo-lecturing me on reading what I've already read, and really making an ass out of yourself. I mean, I don't mind it, but I kinda feel bad for you.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You fail to grasp that I'm not saying that your arguments contain wifom, I'm saying that you keep talking -even though its logic- about wifomy subjects, or null tells as you put it.

[MordyS]

You feel bad for me? Whatever, man. Apparently I'm scummy because I didn't preemptively warn people that my scum-archives might be out of date, even though I don't have a more recent one to offer, and because I acknowledged my split feelings on an issue. Whatever. I don't feel they're scummy actions and I think your vote is misplaced. But feel free to push on that if you really feel they're indicative of scum.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I didn't even say that you did anything actually scummy. Why are you blowing things out of proportion? Do you feel defensive for no reason? I said I have a gut feeling about you due to some stuff that you opted to not mention when you had the opportunity, your wording, your overall focus in the first 10 pages and I'll add to that defensiveness, word-twisting and strawman. Is that enough to place my vote on you? YES. Do I have a good idea of everyone's alignment so far? NO. Are you going to be rude to me again? WHO KNOWS.

[RayFrost]

ABR's scumhunting method brings out Mordy being scummy. <3

unvote, vote: MordyS

^5 ABR.

[MordyS]

I think voting for someone inherently suggests they are scummy. You don't need to say it. Do you feel differently?

[RayFrost]

You are scummy.

I just like how ABR's method showed it to me.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Yes, I do feel that you are scummy. No, I haven't brought up any facts that prove to me that my gut read on you is right.

[MordyS]

So the things you brought up were simply supporting your gut feeling? It looked a lot like "facts" to me. If you intended they all be taken with a grain of salt you should've said as much.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Not supporting. Justifying.

[MordyS]

Also, you're wrong. I'm not scum. I think you're wrong to point to those things as scummy, and your gut feeling is off. If they are simply gut feelings, though, I can't argue them with you since they aren't arguments or facts. If you feel I'm wishy-washy, or hard to read, I think I explained that much earlier on. My attention was on another game, and then I was feeling fairly sedated after I lost in it. That might account for the feeling you're getting from me.

Let me say this about the Movie Madness game. I never considered the no-reveal in my play, and I'm not sure that would've made a difference. I think you can accurately read that game as my scumplay. However, a caveat: I don't think I play differently as scum than as town. So I don't know what value it'll have. Also I think RayFrost is being opportunistic here.

[Iecerint]

I agree that it can be scummy in the abstract for a player to focus on nullifying things. DDD did this in my first game on the site. I called him out on it, no one believed me, I was mislynched, he ended up scum.

However, I just did ctrl+f "null" (yesyes, not exactly scientific) on the 6 month old Mordyscum game iso. There are only 4 instances, and, unless I'm mistaken, they're all criticizing other players for inappropriately calling things null or quoting other players calling things null. So I don't think that's necessarily a Mordy thing, unless it's a new Mordy thing. I'll do the same science experiment on MM in a bit.

I'm not crazy about his defense, though. Mordy's acting like it's unbelievable for a player to make the kinds of observations ABR has made. I'm waiting for kpaca's post tomorrow for now.

[Iecerint]

Mordy, IIRC, you chainsawed your scumbuddy on page 2 of MM... ^^;

Anyway, reading -->

[Iecerint]

Short experiment. No evidence that Mordy is or has ever used nullification as a scum tactic. Only 2 instances in that game -- one where he criticizes someone else's nullification and one where he "begrudgingly accepts" another player's nullification.

[MordyS]

It's not that his observations are unbelievable. It's that I feel they are mischaracterizing my play.

[Iecerint]

I don't understand your distinction. Could you clarify?

[MordyS]

He's observing that I engaged in WIFOM. However he ignores the context. I'm explaining why I feel fake-PR hunting is a bad scumhunting tactic. I explain that, partially, by examining my own ambiguity over the issue. There is WIFOM, but it's not WIFOM I'm engaging in. It's technically speaking WIFOM I'm calling kpaca out on (tho not even, since he's not expressing ambiguity -- technically he may believe fake-PR is totally worth hunting on, though he's since backed off that proposition). So he's observing a facet of my case, but failing to contextualize it. So I feel misrepresented.

[Iecerint]

I see what you mean, but I think you're misunderstanding what he was accusing you of. (Or I am.)

As I understand it (via 256), he's saying that you're acknowledging the WIFOM elements of individual issues (in problematic ways). (Or that's certainly what DDD did in my first Newbie game, even if that issue was a little more complicated.) Sometimes, this is OK to do. Like, suppose I were to claim Miller. You might say that I could be a real one or a fakeclaiming one and declare it null in the short term. But you can also do it in ways that are really silly. Suppose someone finds himself in a WIFOM situation and I say "My goodness, it's WIFOM! Better ignore that one; it could go either way!" While what I said is sort of vacuously true, it leads everyone to ignore potentially-worth-considering information.

So it's sorta the flipside of what you're terming WIFOM. I think post-restrictions are certainly not null, so I could understand someone finding your apparent nullification objectionable.

ABR is welcome to dispute this.

[MordyS]

If that's the case, that's a total other thing. But my impression was that ABR was accusing me of using WIFOM conversations and arguments to avoid leaving a breadtrail and slip beneath the radar. I felt that was unfair and misrepresentative.

[Iecerint]

K.

Waiting on kpaca.