899 FABLES- THE GRIMMAFIA GAME - The End. Mod Sucks.

[Iecerint]

Oh. Then:

SP, my initial vote for you was was serious as an RVS vote can be.

[RayFrost]

Iece:

Certain other things need the attention and love of your heart, too.

[SocioPath]

SP's return post makes 4 principal claims. Chronologically:

1. GK is not actually that great at rhyming. (What's your point? Are you trying to get GK into trouble for breaking his hypothetical PR?)

Just words.

2. Voting someone during RVS for as reasonable a pre-game scumtell as exists is silly.

Meta me, you'll find that I was not around.

3. Continuing to vote suspect players who have yet to participate is pressure voting and therefore silly.

Answered at the bottom.

4. It's totally OK to ignore local context with regard to the rhymers (namely, the fact that both rhymers are highly active players) and to instead present abstract information about mafia theory.

If a player is rhyming, then makes posts where they are not rhyming, and doesn't get the standard PR posting penalties, I will lynch them in a heartbeat.

]I also wish I could've seen him scumhunt a little less myopically. His only real targets are the two players voting for him.

'Attacks' which mostly consist of that I'm lurking.
In a game thats been open for less than 24 hours.

Stating that you'd vote him as RF is expect your 'pressure' vote on me.

What did you mean here? I'm not sure what you meant.

*accept
What I meant was, you are giving intents to vote, but you say you can't, because of your 'pressure vote', but in that stating its a pressure vote, it loses its value.

Pressure votes are fine, stating 'THIS VOTE IS FOR PRESSURE, AFTER THAT I AM GOING TO MOVE IT TO SOMEONE I FIND SCUMMY' is not.
It loses its pressure.
Whether you vote RF or not, that kind of telegraphing is the kind of distancing that I generally pick up on in the early game.

You want a good early game meta of me for finding scum?
Check out TTGL Mafia.
I found the scum team so quick, and so accurately, that they DK'd me soon after.
Monkey knows all about that.

SP, my initial vote for you was was serious as an RVS vote can be.

Can be?
RVS votes 'can be' very serious.
Looks like you are trying to negate its value now.
Even after you've stated that there are others you'd vote for.
RVS votes are only as good as until you have something real to latch onto.
I certainly do.
My vote certainly wasn't a random one.
Your backtracking and negating of your vote on me is hilarious.

[Albert B. Rampage]

V/L/A

[Iecerint]

Pressure votes are fine, stating 'THIS VOTE IS FOR PRESSURE, AFTER THAT I AM GOING TO MOVE IT TO SOMEONE I FIND SCUMMY' is not.

See, I think pressure votes are 100% crap, so I'm more conservative than you on this point. Luckily, I didn't make a pressure vote, nor did I ever describe my vote on you as a pressure vote or insinuate that it was such. This is the second time you have deliberately and fraudulently mischaracterized my vote against you.

I'm not "backtracking" on my vote at all. First, while sometimes (say, if everyone confirms the same day) it is indeed quite silly to get excited about confirmation order, it's not silly when one player is 2 days late. I have found that that particular tell performs WAY above chance -- better than just about anything else except for inconsistency.

Given that we now know you were away from the site, it has become largely null, but that doesn't change that voting you for that basis was reasonable at the time. (And your bizarre response to 2 votes on page 6 doesn't help matters.)

Major bummer @ ABR. I've wanted to play with him ever since I read WoT when I first found the site.

RF, I'll bother someone else when/if SP stops being hysterical. Kpaca had his turn already. Also, he's not here AFAIK. Or did you mean someone else?

[SocioPath]

See, I think pressure votes are 100% crap, so I'm more conservative than you on this point. Luckily, I didn't make a pressure vote, nor did I ever describe my vote on you as a pressure vote or insinuate that it was such.

Oh?

I like RF's vote. I would support it if I weren't busy voting SP.

I want him to post because I don't want to change my vote just because he lurks to safety through the early game. I'm worried about that because he has a tendency to do just that from what I can tell, so I want to illustrate that I'm not going to tolerate that.

That reads to me as a pressure vote.

This is the second time you have deliberately and fraudulently mischaracterized my vote against you.

Oh?

I like RF's vote. I would support it if I weren't busy voting SP.

As such, my vote for SP is as serious an early-game vote as you can expect. Being 2 days late to confirm, when those two days aren't a weekend or holiday, is as reasonable a pre-game scumtell as one can hope for IMO. I intend to continue voting SP until I am convinced that someone else is a better vote.

SP, my initial vote for you was was serious as an RVS vote can be.

So was it a serious vote or not?
You state it as a 'RVS vote' ti negate meaning from its value.
Yet you are keeping it there despite claiming that there are better candidates to vote for.
But, if it WAS serious...why even mention it as a RVS vote?
Obviously if it was serious, it was not be a RVS vote.

[Gerhard Krause]

I don't know what to make of SP at this point.
His logic is crap, and his excuses are disjoint.
I would dismiss your point about pressure votes and such,
but you have decided to commit yourself to it very much.
I can't understand your play as town,
but as scum it would be just as bad and you would frown.
So why, oh why would you make such a claim,
when clearly you are incorrect about this game?
He never claimed his vote as pressure,
he in fact stated it was serious to be sure.

Claiming that you weren't lurking is an outright lie,
and Iecerint seems to think you where away.
However I see no such claim, though I suppose I could be high,
and it has not been 24 hours as you say.

The vote did not refer to your lack of post during the day,
but your late confirmation before the game got underway.

You have, as he said made a misrepresentation,
so you may want to give your next post some consideration.

@Iecerint - How can RayFrost not have been playing role fishing games,
when he asked blatantly who had theories about the PR's names?

Perhaps you made a similar point, and I shall go and look,
and if I find it, you will be in their same nook.

Why you brought suspicion on yourself, I do not know,
but that is WIFOM as any of us can show.

[Iecerint]

It's not a pressure vote at all. Let me illustrate why for you. Suppose you did something REALLY SCUMMY. Just to make it simple, let's say you claimed scum. Then you go away and stop posting for a bit. So I vote you. Following along so far? Now suppose you keep being away and someone else starts doing some sketchy stuff, but I decide that the sketchy stuff isn't worth unvoting you for. So I don't! Does my vote MAGICALLY TRANSFORM into a mere "pressure vote"?

It's a so-called RVS vote because it took place during the so-called RVS stage. There are no true random votes IMO. (Well, not unless someone literally uses a random number generator to select a target and fails to disclose that information, but that's sort of lame, etc.) Everyone is trying to vote the player they think is most likely to be scum. Or that's how I approach RVS.

At the same time, RVS happened, ye know, on page 3. Even if you were to confirm 4 days after everyone else (and weren't replaced for whatever reason), I wouldn't consider that lynchable on its own. That's because RVS votes are made before players have a lot of information about the game.

The game you posted was helpful, though. Thank you. (To summarize for everyone, he's the same reactionary, slightly maniacal player we have here, complete with quote-constructed wallposts and the like. It's true that he finds the scum, though. Makes for a fun iso read when you already know the punchline.) Thank you. Coupled with the fact that you were away from the site pre-game, I'll

Unvote

for now.

[Iecerint]

GK -- As I understand it, RF rather argued that pro-town fake-rhymers were plausible. This is why:

1. Posit that a strong PR has a post-restriction that doesn't affect ability to communicate in any significant way (like forced rhymes).
2. If other town players mimick the post-restriction scum have a harder time distinguishing which player is said PR. Provided that the players don't use it as an excuse to lurk or participate minimally, it's pro-town for the same reason that minimizing claims is pro-town.

(The typical rules about fake post-restrictions (which SP listed) don't apply here IMO because the post-restriction isn't overly cumbersome (or, at least, the two rhymers are managing them well). If the post-restriction were "can only use emoticons" ala the DGB game SP mentioned (<3DGB<3), it would obviously be a different story.)

I think RF and I simulposted the same argument. We were disagreeing with kpaca's assertion that everyone should stop fake-rhyming on the grounds that, assuming that the real-rhymer is a powerful player, scum will have a harder time finding the real one.

I brought it up because it appeared to be an inconsistency on your part. Inconsistency is the only tell that has ever worked for me. Town players have no reason to be inconsistent. Scum players do, whether because they're juggling fakeclaims or protecting buddies or buddying townies or whatever. So I wanted to see what was up with that when it caught my eye.

[Iecerint]

Understood @ your explanation for asking people to stop rhyming. However, I think some players may be rhyming to mask the PR of any players who are actually required to rhyme. For example, given the flavor and the Mod's indication that understanding it is recommended rather than merely pleasant, I would not be surprised if the PR itself were a red flag for specific roles in the source material. So I'm not certain that non-PR'd players should refrain from rhyming.

This is the relevant bit, GK.

[SocioPath]

Claiming that you weren't lurking is an outright lie,
and Iecerint seems to think you where away.
However I see no such claim, though I suppose I could be high,
and it has not been 24 hours as you say.

This is straight up bullshit.
I was not lurking.
Stating I wasn't is not a lie.
Nor did I say that its been 24 hours.
I stated that it was less than 24 hours.
You are stating I've been lurking in a game that been open less than 24 hours.

You sir, are

an idiot

appear to be a VI.

It's not a pressure vote at all.

Well alright then. I misinterpreted it.

It's a so-called RVS vote because it took place during the so-called RVS stage. There are no true random votes IMO. (Well, not unless someone literally uses a random number generator to select a target and fails to disclose that information, but that's sort of lame, etc.) Everyone is trying to vote the player they think is most likely to be scum. Or that's how I approach RVS.

At the same time, RVS happened, ye know, on page 3. Even if you were to confirm 4 days after everyone else (and weren't replaced for whatever reason), I wouldn't consider that lynchable on its own. That's because RVS votes are made before players have a lot of information about the game.

This chunk though. Not so good.
There is no point to point out that its a 'RVS vote' if its not 'random'.
You gave the illusion that it was a more 'serious' vote.
Compare your first vote with other peoples' first vote, yours is notablely more serious.
Playing it off as it meaning as little as everyone else's is backtracking from the stated reasons.

Let me illustrate why for you. Suppose you did something REALLY SCUMMY.

Except I didn't do anything scummy.
Unless Holidays are now scumtells.

[Iecerint]

When I say "RVS vote," all I mean is "one of the first set of votes that all the players customarily throw out in the game." It's a "random vote stage vote," but not a "random vote." (I could understand you misinterpreting that, I guess, but I thought context made it pretty clear what I meant.) I pointed out that it was RVS to contextualize it. That was necessary because you attacked me for the vote itself, but I thought it was an excellent vote given the information available to me at the time. I hope that's clear.

However, now I have new information. Namely, you were off the site for that bit of pre-game. So your apparent "holiday scumtell" is indeed null. (As I already indicated.) And the remaining would-be scumtell -- your utterly bizarre behavior -- isn't really a scumtell for you as far as I'm concerned. So I figure I can give you a pass on that so long as you don't crawl under a rock.

[Gerhard Krause]

@Sociopath - You seem to be incapable of correctly interpreting a post,
so let me make this abundantly clear.
While you have since been excused, you where lurking the most.
When you don't show up to confirm, like a lurker you appear.

I am not accusing you of lurking,
I am justfying the vote against you at the time it was made.
Since you were not here, I'll assume you were working,
but the argument was never about how long the game had been played.

You sir are the village idiot if ever there was one,
you have completely misread posts from me and Iecerint, son.

I wonder how long it will take you,
to tire of saying "sorry, I misread you."

I can't say your behavior makes you scum,
but you are a fool if ever there was one.

[Gerhard Krause]

unvote, vote: kpaca

[SocioPath]

While you have since been excused, you where lurking the most.
When you don't show up to confirm, like a lurker you appear.

I am not accusing you of lurking,
I am justfying the vote against you at the time it was made.
Since you were not here, I'll assume you were working,
but the argument was never about how long the game had been played.

How can someone who hasn't even confirmed for a game, be considered 'lurking'.
Do yourself a favor. Look up what 'lurking' actually means before you throw that term around.

but the argument was never about how long the game had been played.

Oh?
What was the point of:

it has not been 24 hours as you say.

[RayFrost]

Guys.

Sociopath is town.

[MordyS]

I really hope you're just sharing your gut feeling and not softclaiming information, because there's hardly enough pressure on Sociopath to make that worthwhile.

[Gerhard Krause]

24 hours was meant to imply,
that the point was not how long it took you to post.
I tried to show how your mitigations do not apply,
and that in pregame, of innactivity, you had the most.

I am going to drop this argument now,
it is pointless, as your excuse has shown how.

[malpascp]

What was all that noise about the rhimes? Thats not a valid reason to vote someone. You have no case against the musician guys.

Vote: kpaca

[Grimmy]

VOTE COUNT THE FIRST

KPACA - 2

GERHARD KRAUSE
RAYFROST

IECERINT - 1

SOCIOPATH

RAYFROST - 1

MORDYS

JAZZMYN - 1

DRAGONSOFSUMMER

MONKEYMAN - 1

MALPASCP

MALPASCP - 1

MONKEYMAN

NOTE:
ALBERT B RAMPAGE IS V/L/A

GRIMMY

[Iecerint]

I feel naked without a vote out there.

Vote: kpaca

. He's my biggest suspect of those players who remain. Some of his behavior can be excused as new-to-the-site syndrome, but not all of it (e.g. the bit where he reframed my tone to indicate that I supported "lying about PRs" rather than "feigning PRs [to protect them]," even though he'd personally discussed that subject with me at length and had indicated he understood it).

mal, I think you need to unvote first. L-3 if the Mod just made an error.

[MonkeyMan576]

Kpaca has no meta
he also has no sex
I believe this is an alt
and all one big hex.

He has enough suspicion
and bad karma around to tote
that I should change my vote.

Unvote:
Vote: kpaca

[MordyS]

My vote wasn't counted either, guess mod is requiring the unvote.

Unvote
Vote: kpaca

[Grimmy]

Some rule clarifications.

Unvotes will unfortunately be necessary in this game, and talking about ongoing games, whether or not you are still in them, is frowned upon (think of it as a reverse care bear stare)

VOTE COUNT THE SECOND

KPACA - 5

GERHARD KRAUSE
RAYFROST
IECERINT
MONKEYMAN576
MORDYS

IECERINT - 1

SOCIOPATH

JAZZMYN - 1

DRAGONSOFSUMMER

MONKEYMAN - 1

MALPASCP

NOTE:
ALBERT B RAMPAGE IS V/L/A

GRIMMY

7 VOTES NEEDED FOR A LYNCH
_________________

[Iecerint]

NB: Who is Mina? Maybe she didn't notice that the game had started?