Mini 897 - OpenSource Mafia - Game over!!

[UncertainKitten]

Kitten@shroedingers-box:~$ sudo apt-get install RolePM
[sudo] password for Kitten:
Kitten@shroedingers-box:~$ RolePM
Kitten@shroedingers-box:~$ ./confirm
Kitten@shroedingers-box:~$ exit

[UncertainKitten]

8) This is a partial reveal game.

This does not bode well for us.

[UncertainKitten]

Vote Slysly

Only scum would want information to be withheld.

Not even a new alt and me being mod can stop the tunneling on me!!! Glad to see we are picking right back up where we left off, forb!

[UncertainKitten]

Not even a new alt and me being mod can stop the tunneling on me!!! Glad to see we are picking right back up where we left off, forb!

Oh, no, it's just the mod is always scum. No exceptions ^-^. Yet I never get a lynch off on them (with the exception of Tarhalindur) .

[UncertainKitten]

IIIIIIIII know what it means.



But I'm not gonna say.

Is it "spirit of the game" reasons, or just "I feel like being a jerk" reasons?

How helpful Glork is!

He's burdened by proficiency.

Pome voted you because of your strange confirm. UK also had a strange confirm. I asked her if there was a reason she chose you over him. She took me a bit too literally and just said "No."

You're playing open source mafia and you can't read command line!? Ye Gods!

So, scums out there, I have this wonderful ability that turns scum into town. So, who's scum? Let me help you. It's totally free.

The sad part is, given the theme,

I could actually see this.

So...I'm basically all for scum claiming at this point to be converted by s_b

On a completely unrelated note, I'm not scum, but I am extremely curious to see what would happen if Snow were to use her ability on me.

Heh, I was actually thinking along similar lines, but would just prefer to do this the easy way.

I think Snow Bunny just claimed Cult Recruiter.

Cult recruiter that...recruits...mafia? That's...different.

Sadly,

I could see that as well

, given the theme.

/me sighs.

I...um...really don't know what to do right now. I'd rather not vote s_b, for some reason I'm not feeling the whole Lyman is defending Vaya thing, but maybe that's cause I skimmed, and I don't like policy lynches :S...

I'll reread the Josh thing and decide if it merits my vote.

[UncertainKitten]

Yeah, not seeing it. It feels like something I'd do as town if people were trying to lynch a player I hadn't played with before on policy. Hell, even if I had played with that player before I'd be leery of policy attacks. Oh hey, I am.

Eh, why not

Unvote, Vote AlmasterGM

for being lazy and not, yanno, scumhunting.

[UncertainKitten]

I haven't (to my knowledge) played with about half the player list, so I can assure you that not-knowing-JL is not the basis of my vote. I also don't really understand your insinuation that town players like to lynch unfamiliar players by policy.

Oh, I'm saying that John is defending someone he hasn't played with before from a policy lynch. Something I've been known to do as town. So I don't see it as a scumtell like everyone else does.

I wasn't saying that town likes to lynch unfamiliar players by policy, what I meant was that if I'm not familiar with a player, and someone else is, and is pushing their lynch on policy, I'm not likely to be happy with that.

[UncertainKitten]

I'm actually not concerned by his "defense" of Vaya. I wouldn't want to lynch Vaya for that reason, either. I am more concerned about his vote for Glock, the context of said vote, and his attempt to pass it off as random.

I noticed that, but it also doesn't concern me. It felt like a "mostly RVS with a hint of serious'd" vote was meant to be conveyed, and done decently.

LOL.

Well, I never said it was a particularly GOOD vote ^-^;

[UncertainKitten]

Unvote, Vote Josh

NOW, we get to problematic things. Why are you so worried about just a couple votes? You weren't really close to being strung up.

I don't see any reason you should have unvoted.

[UncertainKitten]

I unvoted because it was a random vote, and apparently the RVS stage is over.

And you had no one else to vote? Why change your vote to nothing if there's no reason to change really? RVS doesn't have a clearly defined "over".

What it looks like to ME is backtracking after being called out on something, to be honest.

[UncertainKitten]

I have no one sticking so far out on my radar that I'm willing to vote for them. Yet.

Are you always this aggressive this early? Especially over something so insignificant as an unvote of an admitted random vote?

Generally. I mean, generally a backtrack like that is big enough to get things moving. Admittedly, I don't have any data either way whether the backtrack is a scumtell. It's just that I'd think that scum would be more worried about appeasing the town and unvoting a random vote they were called out on as opposed to just being like "Ok, sorry, it was a random vote. I don't have anywhere else to put my vote at this time though"

But, I mean, you can meta me. You just have to look more for forbiddanlight to find completed games though.

[UncertainKitten]

So, if I remove my *random* vote (which has no weight anyway, by definition), but I don't place it anywhere else, is this better or worse than if I hadn't ever placed a random vote in the first place?

Good question. I personally feel that your vote should be out at all times barring extenuating circumstances. It forces you to take a stance, no matter how weak. Honestly, that's another thing that bugs me. Your random vote DID have a serious component to it that you are disavowing at this point. That probably contributes to the feeling of "Why are you backtracking".

As to actually answer your question, it's probably worse. Generally if you don't place a random vote in the first place, you have a meta for or are developing a meta of not doing so for theory reasons. I don't like it but I'm not likely to vote you for it. The fact you placed one and withdrew it because people were getting on you for it rubs me the wrong way. So worse.

[UncertainKitten]

Yeah, I need to pay more attention to my playstyle and how it is viewed by other people. Outward-looking, as opposed to inward-looking, and all that.

Well, admitting it doesn't excuse it though. I'll keep my vote on you til I see reason to change it. But I'm grateful for the explanation ^-^

I'd suggest just looking around, scumhunting, and letting the day go on with you actively participating. If your participation seems town, then odds are my vote will shift to whoever else is scummy. Very rarely is a vote "final".

[UncertainKitten]

But why would the mafia claim? I think that was obviously an unreasonable request from SB, because from all that's known, she might not have an ability. So I'd be surprised if scum actually claim or anything.

Honestly, scum strategy here should be have their weakest member claim, see what S_B does. If it's a trap, they lost a weak member that would probably die anyway. If it's real, they'll find out D2 and the others can come out, thusly creating a happy ending for all.

Then again, maybe I just like taking the easy way out, and that the mafia would rather actually play the game.

[UncertainKitten]

That makes a lot of sense, but I'd be surprised if it actually happened. This whole claim is very sketchy, and they might not want to risk it.

Well, let me put it this way.

THAT WAS A HINT, MAFIOSOS! IT'D BE PRETTY COOL IF YOU LISTENED!

(To make sure it's clear I'm not saying you are scum Pom, and I don't mean for that statement to be interpretted that way)

[UncertainKitten]

Pome, what's your point about scum "not wanting to risk it?" I mean, I agree with you, but why point that out?

You wanna know what bothers me more? Josh's most recent post on the issue. Honestly, the answers to most of those questions are self evident, and I really don't see a pro town reason for asking them.

Perhaps others disagree?

[UncertainKitten]

JL's post is more problematic, but he posted it after Pome had already sorta let the cat out of the bag. I feel the same way about this Pome-JL post pair as I felt about the original Pome-JL post pair about Glock's lack of helpfulness, except that Pome's post was relatively innocuous the first time.

To be fair, it's not completely lost yet. Yes, it's risky, but as I said, you dump a player that you are likely to lose in the course of the game anyway.

I don't exactly think that the risk is as much as Pom states for the mafia team.

[UncertainKitten]

That number, split into octets is

01001001 11100111 00101110 01001010 11110011 00100000 01001011

This becomes, in decimal:

73 231 46 74 243 32 75

Any ideas what this means?

[UncertainKitten]

I think it would take a pretty clueless player to claim scum in response to a move like that from SK. Now that Pome has pointed that out for everyone, it would take a 100% clueless player. The trade-off is that it lets us publicly evaluate SK's claim without the awkwardness of nullifying SK's potential town gambit, but I think she should have at least given everyone more of a chance to post first.

Why would they have to be clueless? There's a risk/reward here that I think balances out for reward. Then again, maybe I just think weird. for what it's worth I'm not mafia so I really don't have any influence on that situation :S

Also, I dunno why she thinks that SK could be Cult-Leader-recruiting-mafia. Seeing that scum presumably knows scum, that seems like an impossible/difficult mechanic to balance. Could be that recruits become like Traitors, I guess, but that doesn't seem like a very default thesis to me.

You can do it by force replacing any recruited mafioso. That's how Tar handles it.

[UncertainKitten]

The likelihood that SK is actually a town-aligned player with that ability is low IMO. Why would he come out and claim it? It would be like claiming CL D1 in a town-cult game. If there are actually games with roles like the one SK is insinuating, please let me know.

I'd claim it as town. Honestly, get the mafia to come out, convert them, it's the best way for town to win.

That said, I'm terribly unsure how to balance it. It's a thought experiment I'd have to work on.

But, as I said, it fits the theme

...REALLY well

[UncertainKitten]

Unvote, Vote Vala Mal Doran

I've seen you posting like mad in Dollhouse mafia.

Have you nothing to say here?

[UncertainKitten]

Unvote, Vote Josh

I am an idiot. I apologize. I misread.

I thought your most recent post was one of Iec's. You have similar avatars.

[UncertainKitten]

I thought your most recent post was one of Iec's. You have similar avatars.

well, similar in coloration. Actually, it was the combination of Vala and Iec posting at close to the same time that made me overlook Vala's post. Again, sorry about my silliness :S.

[UncertainKitten]

@Mod: I am going to be partially V/LA until Monday. "Partially" means I may only be online once per day.

Given this, I may have to claim in the next hour or so. I'd hate to be lynched.

Barring extenuating role-specific circumstances, please do not claim until you are at L-1 and someone not already voting you has requested your claim.

This, basically. We won't quicklynch you while you're in V/LA. Hell, we're on page 5. Anyone who pushes you to L-1 will be under a lot of scrutiny :S.

[UncertainKitten]

UK, I usually don't have terribly much to say early in a game. I don't mind the purely RVS stage (silliness is fun), but the transition from RVS to "real" mafia where everyone's voting everyone else for almost but not quite entirely stupid or overblown reasons just... irks me.

Understandable. At least you are posting, which I thought you weren't. As I said, that was my bad ^-^;

[UncertainKitten]

Use it on me, please. This is not a joke.

Is this a scum claim? I just would like to be clear on it.

[UncertainKitten]

It is NOT a scum claim. However, based on the flavor and rules text of my role PM, I believe S_B's ability, if it actually exists, will function on me.

Then, may I assume you are third party and want your alignment changed to town?

Because, as far as I can tell, s_b's ability will change your alignment completely, regardless of what you start at.

[UncertainKitten]

Not exactly. Perhaps I am interpreting the rhetoric "alignment change" differently then you based on the information I have. I win with the town, but I am currently stuck using the suck that is WinBlows. I would like to convert to the greatness that is Linux. That is what I suspect S_B may be able to do.

Ah, yes, I think you need to be targetted tonight.

You have to be converted before you can win, correct?

[UncertainKitten]

The point of a breadcrumb is that you pretty much won't be able to figure it out on your own. It commits me to my role immediately (well, part of it anyway), and allows me to claim at will without anyone saying "why did Glork wait until this point to claim?"

You're not going to figure it out, and trying to do so publicly amounts to nothing more than rolefishing.

I'm unused to breadcrumbing as a tactic despite knowing of it's existence. I shall drop looking at it.
I thought you were giving us something useful without actually claiming hence why I wanted to decipher it.

Uncertain Kitten, do you believe that Josh is scum? Please note some points for and/or against Josh, and describe how you feel about the current wagon on him.

For the time being, Josh is the most likely candidate to be scum. The backtracking from his random vote because people called him out for it started his slide into scumminess. Especially claiming it was completely random when he actually did have a point that could be taken seriously.

Secondly, when he basically asked some very...anti town questions of snow_bunny regarding her role which would allow the scum to know if they should claim or not (in the sense that it benefits mafia).

I see no reason to change my vote.


As for SB claiming...hmm...at this point we can deduce most of the mechanics of her role. Her full claiming will not provide any more information except that which we can use to deduce if it's a game breaker. So...I support and SB fullclaim.

[UncertainKitten]

Also, I like how Vaya waits for Glork's support before she votes SP, despite there being nothing from SP between her own voteless post and her SP vote.

I agree with this.

Actually, I'm agreeing with Glork here, about SP's reaction to my and Iec's comments seeming overblown and insincere.

I also agree with this.

Quite a quandry, no?

I'm not really sure what I'd like to do here. I won't get any feedback from Josh til Monday, and I'm content to wait for that unless something crazy happens on either SPs or Vaya's part. I'm unimpressed with either at this time, reasons mostly covered by everyone else :S.

[UncertainKitten]

What's the problem here? I feel Glork made a good point about SP, which after he mentioned it, made me think it over and come to agree with him.

It was a point you should have been most sensitive to. It seemed you were waiting to see if you could get away with that. It's not an amazingly negative point or I'd be voting you. I just see GMs latter point. I think SP is being too reactionary though.

[UncertainKitten]

"GM"? I guess that's Alma?

Yeah, I'm lazy.

[UncertainKitten]

I'm taking SP's side. Clearly Vaya is scum.

...SSK...I've heard you can be a useful protown player. I understand that people sometimes give you a hard time due to your meta. So, I'll ask nicely. Is there anything else you currently think with regards to this game? Perhaps an opinion on Snow Bunny's claim, Josh's responses to my pressures...really, anything is good. As far as I remember, this is all you've given so far.

Actually, if you could elaborate on why SP has the right of the situation, I'd also appreciate it. Thank you ^-^.

[UncertainKitten]

lolwat.

In TRADTiMM he was the ONLY TOWNIE that actually caught scum. He was also a role that for all intents and purposes wasn't actually IN the game but interacted with it (Tar game, etc), but when it came time for him to deal with stuff, he asploded and killed scum. (Suicide bomb was part of his role)

And that was the only town caused scum kill. I'm assuming he has the ability to reason out who's scum. He just isn't in the habit of telling us what he's thinking. I'd almost be willing to treat him like chamber, but I'd appreciate him giving information if he so deigns.

[UncertainKitten]

Well, part of it is a matter of how you talk to him. I mean, I think it's fair to say he gets a bad rap and it colors people's impressions of him. so they tend to be ruder. Well, I know

I

would be less inclined to help people who are rude to me. So I'd like to give him a chance. He's shown me that on some level he's decent at mafia. I just want to see if he'll at least help me a little to see what he's doing on my level. I think the situation will be much better if rather than call him scum because we don't understand him, we try to kindly ask for a less hidden input so we can parse what he's thinking. Because I firmly believe he IS thinking, even if he doesn't show his work.

[UncertainKitten]

SP has the right of the situation because Vaya's obv scum No, I will not elaborate more on that matter.

Is this due to official information or just a desire to protect certain scumtells you feel are true? Or is even that asking too much?

[UncertainKitten]

So Iec is Vaya's scum partner, awesome.

Ah, but doesn't that make me scum with them? I'm technically defending Vaya as well by attacking SP, but I don't agree with Vaya's latest action. In ways, I'm worse than Iec because I haven't committed to either.

To attempt to rectify that I'd probably pressure SP over Vaya at this time if I didn't want more from Josh.

[UncertainKitten]

This is why I like being invisible. I have a hard time pointing out specific scum tells that tell who is scum.

Hmm. Not sure I like this, and I have too small a sample size to determine if this is alright. But, overall, I want to see how this goes. I think that we can definitely get some use out of you (sorry, that sounds so condescending :S). I'd rather not see any meta based attacks on SSK this game. Remember the tale of the North Wind and the Sun ^-^.

Yeah, but you don't defend your scum partners that hard.

How often have you played with me as scum anyway ^-^? Rather, scum with actual scumbuddies . That said, have you noticed this trend with Iec (more liable to heavily defend a buddy?)

Okay, I want you to elaborate on that, SSK. You're claiming to have role-related reasons to believe I'm scum?

I agree with this, actually. But! I am not for a full claim. I'd like you to determine what is a safe amount of information to impart, SSK?

[UncertainKitten]

I have a hard time buying that SSK has role-based reasons to find Vaya scummy. Vaya hasn't claimed anything. It would only make sense if SSK were told up-front "PS VAYA IS SCUM."

It's odd to me as well. But this is a game where we are encouraged to expect the unlikely. There might be something to it.

1. This is exactly what scum would do.
2.I do not want to be night killed for the reason for this info.

Do you believe that your role is worth more than one caught scum? Answer VERY carefully, and please don't forget that in general, a 12 player game has 3 scum and 9 town, making each scum far more valuable to their team than any townie.

Actually, thinking on it, scratch that question. Obviously you think it is or you aren't certain of your results.

Hmm...I've changed my mind SSK. Don't claim anything. I'm not sure if I'll vote Vaya yet. I'll have to assess both your behaviors throughout the day.

[UncertainKitten]

I've never been scum on this site.

I think you're more likely to get a meta-based defense of SSK than a meta-based attack on SSK. Actually, you've kinda already offered one of those. <_<

Heh, I suppose I have. But I'm not offering the traditional one at least ^-^. I'm striking into a completely different territory with regards to him than I usually do, honestly. I'm hoping it works because if it does, it will allow me to reassess my playstyle a little and possibly improve beyond just being "that girl who's useless at scumhunting but generally comes off as townie"

A few times. One example would be Time Spiral Mafia. Yes I have noticed this trend with Iec.

Ok, but Iec says he has no scum experience on this site.

Fine. It involved a rapid action in Tar's terms.

You have mostly persuaded me. One last question that you may deign not to answer without me worrying. If you were to place a percentage confidence in your results, what would you put it as?

This would be nice.

I agree. Just try to help me a little as well, ok ^-^?

[UncertainKitten]

I could have sworn you were scum in ILY Mafia.

Hmm. OK. I did survive until the end of ILY, and I was big on SSK's D2 lynch, so I could maybe see SSK misremembering that, especially if he didn't check in post-game much. Lemme check.

@SSK: Is Iec as likely to be Vaya's scumbuddy with this information coming to light?

Meh. I guess not. Now that I think about it more.

Actually, with the information you've provided thus far I don't think you necessarily need to claim much more, if anything at all.

[UncertainKitten]

What's a rapid action? I assume it means that he could use it at any time (e.g. Daycop)?

Essentially, yes.

And yet I misremembered him being scum.

Well, that just implies you forgot the details ^-^;

99%.

For the time being,

Unvote, Vote Vaya

Just be aware if Vaya is lynched today and flips town, there's only a 1% chance I'm not going after you ^-^

I checked ILY post-game, and Slicey never posted in the post-game. It could that he just never checked back but was pretty (mistakenly) certain of my alignment there.

Slicey? Or do you mean SSK ?

Either way, I think that Vaya would be a very informational lynch at this point at the least, and is also likely to net us scum. Thank you, SSK, for your cooperation.

[UncertainKitten]

With his hesitance to actually claim the details of his role, I'm going to say he's making it up here.

Really, he's basically claiming to be a daycop of some sort, that plenty enough to already paint a big NK target on him. There no point in keeping the exact nature of his role secret in fear of being killed over it.

I'm going to say that this is probably your only option as either alignment. I disagree the exact nature of his role needs to be revealed at this point, as I can think of several things BESIDES daycop that would lead to you being convicted.

In fact...thinking about things further, there are two ways to do this. We lynch Vaya today, and something interesting happens tonight, which leads to a very clear day tomorrow, or we lynch neither Vaya nor SSK, something interesting happens tonight, and we still have a clear day tomorrow.

I think SSK would be insane to be going for a gambit this early in the game, especially on Vaya, who hasn't really provided enough information to read him. I grant, this is not his fault, but still a fact to consider.

[UncertainKitten]

I feel I have adequetely explained my reasdons for my vote on Glork. I also have explained my reasoning for removing said vote. I seriously don't know what else to say about it that may sway your opinion.

As for my role-related questions to SB, I see now that they weren't exactly pro-town; lessonlearned. I would retract the question, but the damage seems to have been done.

You pretty much have. As I said, what I'm looking for now is a more active scumhunting stance and more committing to opinions of other people's alignments. I grant this is hard on D1 but there's nothing wrong with changing your opinion later, as long as you have a logical flow to what you are doing ^-^.

[UncertainKitten]

What does this mean?

Also, I hadn't noticed your sex. Sorry for probably getting it wrong. ^^;

I don't recall you doing so. I don't think you've referred to me in the third person.

Anyway, what it means is I wasted a post since that was kinda self evident and didn't bear mentioning. But basically I meant that Vaya was pinned and as either town OR scum would have to respond attacking SSK.

I will state this clearly now. There is a possibility that allows for both Vaya and SSK to be town. The more I think about it the more I advocate caution, to be honest. I think the situation can be resolved by D2 without lynching either.

As such,

Unvote, Vote Socio

. I'm not SATISFIED with Josh but I have a feeling he'll improve and I'll give him that chance. Socio has been scummy for aformentioned reasons.

Oh, by the way, mafia, I'd advise not killing SSK tonight unless you'd like to confirm Vaya's alignment for us.

[UncertainKitten]

MafiaSSK: if Vaya is scum, you are a very, very obvious target tonight already. With this in mind, a fullclaim seems natural. If you aren't prepared to fullclaim, and we lynch Vaya, and Vaya is town, tomorrow I will be voting for your lynch unless you both have a convincing reason to declare Vaya 99% scum (a huge certainty, particularly in a bastard game) AND a convincing reason why a fullclaim today was bad - something more than "to avoid NK".

This is a good stance, but I disagree with it.

Here's what I'd like, if at all possible

Vaya and SSK do NOT get lynched today.
SSK, do NOT fullclaim today.
Any protective role that exists, please protect SSK from kills.
I think D2 will be quite fruitful.

Before it's asked, yes, I have official reasons to believe this is the best course of action.

[UncertainKitten]

Okay, but that will have to wait for Monday evening.

(I also hadn't noticed your gender. You post very male. [This is not a bad thing.])

Nyeh, mafia is a hard context to really be "feminine" in. I don't usually post this way in less...adversarial situations.

[UncertainKitten]

@Kitten: I'm not sure I buy your change of stance on Josh. He made some scummy posts, which make him more likely scum. How does your feeling that his posts will improve make him less likely scum?

Gut, honestly. Something feels...not scummy about Josh despite my earlier stance. I understand if that's not enough for you.

And plus, I want to see where this Socio thing goes ^-^.

[UncertainKitten]

I think its worth repeating that this is a partial reveal game. I do have to wonder if SSK is scum expecting to get away with this because of that.

He probably won't get away with it.

I still think its a good idea for SSK to fully claim this result he has against me. Kitten, do you have actual reason here to say that SSK shouldn't claim, despite the fact that he would be an obvious kill target regardless?

He's an obvious kill target, but there is a possibility he's actually harmless to scum. I'd like to remind scum of that possibility without playing too many of my cards. Of course, I don't think he is but I'm a gambler, and I'm hoping my adversaries are as well.

If he claims that possibility may increase or decrease, making him ineffective or night kill bait.

Further, I'm not as certain as he is in his results. Due to the information I have. The reason I supported it at first was honestly because I forgot what I knew and that this was a bastard game. But, as I said, this is a solvable situation without losing potential assets.

[UncertainKitten]

My bias is that SSK should give us information about his result on Vaya to prevent the SSKscum scenario where he can adjust his fakeclaim to fit with the partial reveal. (UK's already said she has reason to believe this isn't the way to go, but it could be that she forgot, too.)

I'm aware of the partial reveal. It does not effect my plan. Well, unless the mod is an INCREDIBLE bastard, but I'll determine that by D3. But I'm getting ahead of myself ^-^;

[UncertainKitten]

Iec, your vote is suspicious. The third vote on a bandwagon/in a row is a tad scummy. It's not very scummy- I'm just throwing this out there.

It's the fourth vote actually. It bothers me as well. Initially Iec wanted to stay on Josh, despite the V/LA being pointed out. I did the same thing. Now that I've switched off Josh though, Iec has followed. This does not put me at ease, but I'll take a wait and see approach. His vote on SSK did feel more self motivated and actually scum hunty.

Also, lol at wikitell, Pom .

[UncertainKitten]

Actually, I've been accused of the same thing (putting down a third vote quickly, while meaning to put sown the second).

It's not really a scumtell, and I wish people would stop saying it is. Then again, if they did, I guess it stands a chance of becoming a scumtell again. Ah, the wonderful world of the metagame.

I thought I was the second vote, discounting Vaya? Who's our 4th wagonmate?

Gorrad.

[UncertainKitten]

It's certainly true that the basis of my vote was partially UK's vote, though. I disqualified myself from starting an SP wagon back then because he was already voting me.

That's...decent but I still have my eye on you.

But yeah, people got on Vaya because he followed Gorrad onto SP, IIRC?

[UncertainKitten]

I was mistaken. Gorrad did not vote SP unless he was already on SP.

[UncertainKitten]

Gorrad's not in this game. Unless you're saying his alt is?

Glork. I'm sorry, I failed hardcore.

[UncertainKitten]

An odd stance, I would have thought that you of all people would appreciated behavior of the reactionary sort.

Maybe I'm picking a different playstyle today ^-^

I'm loving the wagon on me so far. I think your vote was awesome in that the reactions it caused. Mainly 2 'other' people to immediately vote me. Which are both awesome for their own reasons:

The Iec vote was my favorite point, actually ^-^

That is a lovely chain of events. Also reinforced with Iec voting SSK for claiming Vaya as scum.

Actually, that does weigh more on my mind thinking about it.

Clearly not voting for people he thinks to be the scummiest in his eyes.
More interested in actual wagons than just votes for who he thinks is scum.
Basically saying 'oh I didn't vote then, because it would look like OMGUS, but now that you voted for him, its not OMGUS, but a wagon.

...that last point is strong. Why should a townie care what they look like? I didn't even think about that :S

Which I'd blame UK for, for not being reactionary enough.

Hehe, sorry, I don't have any bullets this game ^-^

Yanno what? I've definitely been glossing over Iec's actions too much. For some reason I was biased towards thinking he was town, but honestly his recent behavior hasn't been very townie.

Unvote, Vote Iecerint

-Worrying too much about appearances (It's not OMGUS if you actually have reasoning, so damn the accusation and go forward. At least if you're townie)
-Bandwagon following (not scummy in and of itself but not very helpful to town)
-Strong defense of possible scum, assumption that SSK was the liar rather than Vaya at first (chainsaw possibly)
-Strong defense of Vaya prior to SSK's claim

I realize the last two points hinge on Vaya's alignment, but we have more information than usual regarding that. I'd say the first point though is strong enough to stand on for a vote switch.

[UncertainKitten]

Haven't read Pages 9 and 10 yet, but


Vote: SSK
Claim info or die.

Pages 9 and 10 remove the need for this, IMO.

I will allow you to make your own assessment, but I'd like you to tell us how you feel after reading them.

[UncertainKitten]

1) SSK is claiming to be 99% certain of another player's alignment on D1 of a bastard game. This is... extremely curious to say the least, and I'm not willing to buy into it at all without knowing what can make him so certain of that information in this particular game. Any number of things could go wrong with this. Millers. Death Millers. Cop sanity issues. Changing alignments. Redirections. Scum Protections/Abilities. "Insane" Doctors.

If Vaya is a miller, assumably he'd have claimed it. Otherwise I'd be irritated. But obviously, the things I think can go wrong with this are things I'm taking into consideration, hence why I want to wait. I can alleviate at least some of them.

--

I don't want anybody to answer this in-game,

but I have two rhetorical question for each of you to ponder, given what SSK has said and given the nature of the game: If you were a Doctor, would you be inclined to protect him tonight? If you were Scum, and knew/believed/assumed SSK was not part of your group, would you be inclined to kill SSK tonight?

If I were scum, I would kill UK. If I were doctor, I would save UK.

If I were scum with UK, I would kill SSK.
If I were scum with UK and SSK, I would kill. Uhh. Someone innocuous. Pome?
If I were scum with UK and Vaya, I would kill Glock.

Wild card is SB.

Thank you, Iec for reinforcing your scumminess and giving yourself a WIFOM out

/me rolls her eyes.

How confident are you that the words you read in the Moderator's posts will be truthful? It looks like you've put a fair amount of thought into this, but I don't trust you, I don't trust your information, and I don't trust SSK's information. It's hard for me to listen when you say "Trust me. Let's do this," because I'm probably less-informed than just about everybody else in this game, and I have a natural aversion to making assumptions in bastard games.

It's not good to assume, hence why I switched to advocate waiting. I am REASONABLY sure that my ability is not being TOO bastardized, but as I said, I can't confirm THAT until D3, unless we REALLY want to leave the Vaya/SSK issue hanging until D3.

And finally, sorry for the wall of text. My mind is running at about a billion miles per hour, and I've considered a lot of things (including requesting that everybody massclaim -- but I've decided that's not the best course of action for *today*). I also have additional thoughts on why I want fullclaims instead of partial claims, but I will hold off on boring you folks unless you ask me to elaborate. I thinK I've rambled enough for now.

I think I understand. I'm unsure if I agree at this juncture, but in general would agree.

[UncertainKitten]

In this game, it is a terrible idea to assume that someone is not a miller simply because they have not claimed miller. Claiming miller on another day is not a scum tell. If you are an investigative role and you got a guilty, it is highly likely that your result is wrong.

That is all.

That's fair. As I said, I plan to check a few things before we go too far with 1v1 SSK and Vaya.

[UncertainKitten]

The problem is that we don't know whether Vaya is scum or not. It could be a lot worse for us if Vaya was switched from town to scum.

I'm not saying this specifically about Vaya. What if SB switched a townie to scum? We have to be careful. SB's role is not entirely clear

Ah right, we do need this clarification and it's not something I considered. Silly me :S

[UncertainKitten]

One thought that had just occurred to me is that if SB's role does exist and she is protown, we may be dealing with a cult instead of a town. I know some people were all "so you're claiming to be a Cult Leader" when she first claimed, but her ability seems like a very natural foil to a relatively standard cult.

That's...not entirely impossible. Especially given the theme. There could be a Windows cult versus the free Linux users, and SB being someone who can distribute Linux to brainwashed windows users. I'm guessing that the leaders of each cult can't be changed though :S.

[UncertainKitten]

You are claiming that you have reason to believe that a result that SSK thinks is 99% accurate is false.

Yes

Can you give us anything about the type of your information? It seems extraordinary that you believe you know SSK's info is wrong without knowing what it is, or anything at all about Vaya.

I don't know it's wrong. I know there is a high probabilty it is or else my role would be retardedly useless.

If you are right in your suspicions as to the meaning of your role pm and SSK's investigation, is it null, or does it mean Vaya is definitely town?

That's classified information.

"Highly likely" seems very strong. To my understanding, many millers do claim day 1. If I was a sanity guaranteed cop, I'd probably be about 80% sure of a guilty result.

Yeah, honestly, I'd lynch anyone a sanity guaranteed cop got a guilty on

[UncertainKitten]

It's also information which would help us make the right decision (if you being right wouldn't guarantee anything, I almost certainly want to lynch Vaya today).

/me sighs.

I'd rather not reveal if it can definitely cause a certainty. But there is a reason I trust my result to be more beneficial than just lynching Vaya.

[UncertainKitten]

Bad idea. I liked Fishy's less extreme response a lot more. Why so confident?

Because it's far too easy to lose a scum lynch just because they claim miller. I should know.

I've gotten away with it before.

What if there is no scum, and this game only qualifies as mafia because we are somehow led to believe there is, and it's really just a battle between Winblows/Linux/Crapple/whatever other factions have been mentioned? (I don't know much about bastard games on this site, but having no actual mafia to be a not-unheard of reason for calling a game bastard -- Pokerface's Bad Reveal Mafia comes to mind.)

Cults are still scum. I'd argue a cult game would still be mafia, just not the greatest form of it.

@Everyone: Without giving away your role, do you think the above is at all a reasonable assumption, and if it is, should we still lynch today?

I think it REASONABLE, but...not necessarily true. We don't have enough information. We should probably treat the game like mafia and keep the idea that it could involve cults near the forefront of our thoughts without letting it dictate everything we do.

EDIT WHILE READING OTHER POSTS: Wait, did you mean that it's cult vs. town or that we all are fragmented factions? I meant the first one is reasonable.

Ugh, nevermind, you're absolutely right. Your response just prompted me to re-read my role PM, and it does in fact mention town. Furthermore, Slysly quoted a vanilla townie PM at the start of the game. Durr hurr, L2read VMD. I just had a real idiot moment there. ._.;

To be fair, I've quoted a Vanilla PM at the start of my games where there existed no vanilla townie. But yeah, there is definitely a town, lol.

[UncertainKitten]

So, using this logic, shouldn't we just auto-lynch anyone who claims miller? Why isn't your vote on fishy right now?

Sorry, allow me to elaborate. "Claim miller in response to a sanity guaranteed cop claiming a guilty on a player"

I'm generally in favor of claiming miller in your first post.

My point here is that we should lynch scummy people, not play follow-the-cop (or any other role, for that matter).

That I emphatically agree with.

[UncertainKitten]

Sex is an obvious one in that females generally are more emotional and will generally dislike more scathing attacks on them regardless of whether or not its personal.

Bah! Stereotypes! You can't just put girls and guys in boxes like that

Given her personal meta of what I know about her, I'd have to conclude that her lack of active scum hunting is a null tell. Yes, I did say all that to come to the conclusion that is 'null'.

Seriously? hmm...I...don't like this. It makes me want to get Pom's flip. But I really want Iec's as well .

What to do :S.

[UncertainKitten]

UK -- remind me why I'm likely scum, other than null things and things that would be more efficiently determined by lynching Vaya? I know this is D1, but it sort of doesn't make sense, etc. (Also, do you quote that way intentionally?)

A habit I've developed. Let me dredge up the post I voted you in.

[UncertainKitten]

Unvote, Vote Iecerint

-Worrying too much about appearances (It's not OMGUS if you actually have reasoning, so damn the accusation and go forward. At least if you're townie)
-Bandwagon following (not scummy in and of itself but not very helpful to town)
-Strong defense of possible scum, assumption that SSK was the liar rather than Vaya at first (chainsaw possibly)
-Strong defense of Vaya prior to SSK's claim

I realize the last two points hinge on Vaya's alignment, but we have more information than usual regarding that. I'd say the first point though is strong enough to stand on for a vote switch.

You responded but I wasn't convinced by any of your responses really.

[UncertainKitten]

OK. Fair enough. Silly case, though. The first two aren't any better than SP's on Vaya, and the last two (as you indicate) do not imply that lynching me is ideal play.

Unfortunately, lynching Vaya is a worse play. And really? Elaborate on how the first two are as bad as SP's case. I implore you.

[UncertainKitten]

Shes a 13 year old girl in school with an older sister on the site. Pressure and people hounding her might be a bit overwhelming to the average 13 year old.

Yeah, I knew this. And was figuring that's what you were after. And I didn't like it. Still don't. It's easy to make a meta defense based on that. I have my own list of expectations for pom. Honestly, I wasn't really looking at her til you came to her defense. Now I have to reconsider things.

But also another meta factor for you, you have a mod meta, and of that for these kinds of games none-the-less, so I would hold game setup speculation and instances of 'try to outguess the mod' from you to be more valued than a player that sticks to normal and newbie games.

That's nice. I still don't have a good feel for SlySly, so I'm just as in the dark as you are. I just know my information allows for an interesting scenario.

And now I'm manipulating you by playing to your gender and stroking your ego with the mod talk of past games.

Don't see it working. I don't see how my gender has factored into this actually.

Your opinion of me changes with each sentence, me stating the things up above certainly hasn't made you think I'm more scummy, as I know that doesn't play to your meta.
It might now though.

You are not low on my list of people likely to be scum. You also aren't high. Honestly, you are not a player that has registered as "playing this game" for me. Not because you are lurking or not producing. Because you haven't gained my notice. You slowly are, and it might not be something good for you if you're scum. If you are town, it's probably a good thing. I'll figure that out eventually...I hope.

Just be sure to know the difference between liking the argument for its structural integrity, and liking the argument because you like how it makes you perceive yourself.

I'm aware. Course, if you want to keep complimenting me, go ahead ^-^.

[UncertainKitten]

You can't say that males and females generally don't have similar playstyles.
Adel had a very masculine, analytical playstyle even before he was a male (that is, onsite Razz )

Its no absolute though. (as I would see a box as being as)

Oh? I'm curious how you analyze my playstyle

SP's case on Vaya was bad because Vaya is always lurky D1 (and was inactive on the site up til his case was made).

Your case on me is bad because I am always concerned about how I'm perceived (for good reasons that I have already indicated). Also, your two non-Vaya points contradict one another as you're applying them. The first implies that I *should* vote my conscience, appearances be damned, while the second point is derived from Pome's assertion that 3rd votes are scummy. (Hadn't noticed the second bit before.)

How is it derived from that? And that's a false dichotomy. They aren't contradictory. You shouldn't worry about appearances, but you should always be pro town. It's not something you force though. Don't hold back from an action because you think it might be perceived badly. But make sure it does some good for the town. I hope that makes sense.

[UncertainKitten]

Hmm. Please clarify what you mean by this.

Possibility of a chainsaw causes me to reassess both of you. Tomorrow though.

Also notice how virtually every response to a part of my post starts with a short, snippet of a sentence.
Was that something that happened on purpose in that you had planned?
Or did it just sort of turn out that way?
Now, its not uncommon for you to have a such response, but look at the concentration.

Well, that's probably something I always do. But it doesn't lead to any alignment tells.

[UncertainKitten]

And yeah, Pome was the first one to bring up the 3rd vote business. You corrected her (saying it was the 4th vote counting an early-game vote) and chastised her for expressing her reads in wikitell format, but agreed with the substance of her assertion.

Cite this for me. I forgot it ^-^;

Either you were operationalizing your criticisms, or you weren't.

Huh? I don't know what you mean here.

If you weren't, then you're just sloganeering and your criticizing has little to nothing to do with my play. In this case, your case on me (except the Vaya bits) is just a variation of 2TOWN4TOWN, which is very lazy, level-able at almost any player, etc.

Even more puzzling

If you were, and I think you need to reread the situation. When I voted SP with you (which is the basis of both your first two points against me, as I understand it), I clearly indicated the basis of my support. It was in fact undifferentiable from your own stated basis for the wagon. That one of these is scummy and one not -- especially given that we both thought we were the 2nd vote -- does not make sense to me.

Splitting hairs. And misrep. You see, the thing is you stated that you didn't want to look like you were OMGUSing. Why should a townie care about that? That's what bothered me. The fact you followed me onto there was...interesting. And I think I noticed you following earlier this game. I'll recheck to be sure of that though.

[UncertainKitten]

I don't see how SocioPath used a Chainsaw Defense anywhere.

And even if it did, Chainsaw cannot be used as a valid point until its assumed premises are shown to be correct. That would require two dead bodies, which we don't have yet.

I said the possibility of it. I know it can't literally be a chainsaw for certain unless we have flips. But I think I need to look at both SP and Pome.

That said...I just realized, you're right, it's not a chainsaw. I withdraw the accusation. However, the meta clear still bothers me.

1. I asked that.
2. Let me clarify my questions with nice bold for you.

SP's meta clear bothers me.

"Operationalize" means "clarify what it means." For example, if your tells are clear enough that you can decide that some things apply and some things don't given any appropriate input, that's a well-formed, operationalized tell.

Some people don't use operationalized tells. For example, some people say that they feel something in their gut, or that something feels "off." These are not operationalized tells because they depend on the person giving them. Some tells, like 2TOWN4TOWN, appear to be operationalized, but they're not. I think you can see why, right?

Ok. It's probably operationalized. That said, how in the nine hells do you draw me accusing you of being 2TOWN4TOWN?

This is...just a horrible misrep.

(For the record, it's very poor play IMO to directly attack attackers in my experience. Even if your points are good, you invariably come off as hysterical.)

That's your opinion. It depends on how you present it, actually.

If you were only cross with me for saying I didn't want to vote SP while he was voting me after I pointed out his mistake with the Vaya business, you shouldn't have accused me of "bandwagon-following" at all. To the extent that your "bandwagon-following" point isn't totally vacuous

See, here we disagree. I'm not at ALL referring to Pom's point of "lololol, third on the bandwagon". What I'm referring to is the fact you were following me (and I believe others). I have things to do today but I'll elaborate further on this later.

Initially Iec wanted to stay on Josh, despite the V/LA being pointed out. I did the same thing. Now that I've switched off Josh though, Iec has followed. This does not put me at ease, but I'll take a wait and see approach. His vote on SSK did feel more self motivated and actually scum hunty.

Oh hey, look at that, elaborated reasons OUTSIDE of lololol, fourth on bandwagon.

I really don't see how you are trying to argue this ^-^;

[UncertainKitten]

SP your case makes no fricken sense.

I shouldn't answer for SP, but in this case, he's not making a case on me, he's trying to mindfuck me. I actually could argue that's a little scummy, because if you are town, what's the point of trying to throw off the calibration of someone else's scumhunting?

[UncertainKitten]

UK, my point is that whereas you indicated that you had not looked at Pome this game til recently, it is quite clear that she has been on your radar (if not your scumdar) for much of the game. Your interaction after her wikitell on me is just one example. You minimized her behavior in this exchange, too:

Interesting. That wasn't intentional. But I'll be hoenst, Pom hadn't bothered me as much as Josh at that point. Josh's post was, indeed, worse IMO.

Regarding 2T4T -- it's not that you're necessarily accusing me of that, but the alternative interpretations of your attack make no sense. Here are some possible ways to understand your argument:

1. Late wagon-joining is scummy.
2. Iec did it.
3. Iec is scum.

^ But that's bull, because I thought I was the second vote. (It's a pretty silly argument, anyway, but that's neither here nor there.) So I'm assuming that isn't what you mean, right? So to understand my action as scummy, something absurd like this is necessary:

1. Late wagon-joining is scummy.
2. Townies don't care about trying to look scummy! O_o
3. Iec did it, so he's trying to look townie! o_O
4. Iec is scum.

Which is 2T4T/very silly.

See, I love how this is. It's a complete misrep of what I said. You act like the late wagon joining itself is the scummy point, whereas it's not. It's the following behavior and the lack of original thought between your switches. Now does it make sense?

I'm looking forward to your vague claim that I have "followed" on other occasions today. I followed you to SP because I trusted your "official information" claim that lynching Vaya was poor play, and I maintain that that was perfectly reasonable given the premise that you are not full of shit. Granted, whether you are full of shit is yet to be seen, etc.

Why did you follow me to SP? Why didn't you vote anyone else? What original reasoning did you have on SP? Or was it just blatant bandwagoning?

I think I have to read you in iso to work this out. I might change my mind.

Your claimed "reasons OUTSIDE of lololol, fourth on bandwagon" really just indicate that our play with respect to the SP votes were insignificantly different.

Were they? I don't know this. You voted after I did.

I could just as easily claim that you were scummy for protecting Vaya and attacking her former attacker. In fact, the accusation is more suitable in your case given your vague "official information" claim.

The thing is, my "protection" is objectively verifiable (granted, it'd probably require my flip. Though even that might not help). But, it's also subjectively verifiable within one game day.

/me sighs

After I do a few things (call it an hour from now), I'll do that iso.

[UncertainKitten]

Unlike UK, I don't find it scummy when people are meticulous about how they appear. I think that everyone needs some element of it, because without it, I think there would be more mislynches based on votehopping, false connections, and backpedaling.

I've found that when I stopped caring, I got lynched a lot less. I think sometimes people overcompensate and it comes off as scummy.

If you're always pro-town then you will probably be percieved well. But what about someone with a playstyle like Tubby: He does it to guage reactions, as he stated:

tubby is an interesting case. That's where meta comes into play.

I think he's trying to show that you can't judge every player 100% by his/her gameplay, and that you should take other things into account. He's explaining why he's evaluating me a bit differently than other players. Idon't agree with it, but I understand it.

I've always thought those factors were implicit. But he is playing something with me or he wouldn't have gotten into it as he did.

Ok, I'll get food then do an Iec iso.

[UncertainKitten]

/me sighs.

I'll do it tomorrow. I got trapped developing my D&D character and go to bed in 8 minutes .

[UncertainKitten]

Sometimes. But does that mean they're scum?

I think that scum are more likely to care about how they are perceived than town.

[UncertainKitten]

4. Hey, I'm suspicious of SP, too! He made that crap argument against Vaya! And UK's "official information" claim may further imply that Vaya is likely town!

Sorry, that's a little too far. Vaya isn't "likely town". She just has a significant nonzero probability of being town. Enough so I don't immediately want to follow SSK.

5. I'll pressure SP, too! After all, UK seems like a nice man lady, my vote on SSK is outdated given the information in ILY (and he's claiming daycop, anyway), and JL is out to pasture. No better place for my vote!

No. This is actually what you said. Oh, and this.

More on this later when there isn't a bunch of bullshit related to fucktarded winter storms going on.

[UncertainKitten]

If you don't have some form of reasonable inference specifically concerning Vaya, I think your "official information" claim is highly suspect. It would have to be of the form "daycops FTL," which you could just share with us AFAIK. (Or I suffer from lack of creativity, which is common.)

I refuse to reveal anything I don't have to. At the moment, the information I've given will suffice.

And of course, half her points against him seem to hinge on my alignment, which hasn't been revealed. It's stupid play to actually try to use this against him at this time.

Eh, I've been known to do it I think. I look for connections before flips. It's kinda a failing in a way.

This is an awful, scummy reason to jump on the Pom wagon, why isn't this post getting more attention? I'd rather lynch this guy right now than Pom.

/me facepalms

Because I was tunneling on Iec. Let me actually do that ISO so I can feel good about switching off Iec if it is necessary.

But dear god how did I miss that :S.

UK, those posts you've linked are 100% consistent with the 5-point explanation I indicated. The first says that your vote was part of my vote, which is accurate. The second is the vote post that I already reposted, which says the same thing, plus why I disqualified SSK/Vaya/JL. So. I don't know what you were trying to demonstrate by posting those. Did you just think no one would read them?

Yeah, true, they are consistent. Blame stress for making a bad point. My mom did manage to break her arm this morning and I was dealing with that when I responded. For some reason it made sense then but um...now it doesn't :S...

Honestly, that's basically a point against me that I can't dispute.

I'll try to do that iso now.

[UncertainKitten]

I refuse to reveal anything I don't have to. At the moment, the information I've given will suffice.

I actually misread what you said actually. Rereading it, I assure you that my data will impact both SSK and Vaya.

[UncertainKitten]

Your first few posts are pretty normal RVS stuff. As I registered back then, I didn't think you had a point with Josh but it wasn't scummy for you to point that out.

Honestly, I don't see anything out of line with your earlier play. It's active, reasonably stancey, nothing too crazy.

Actually...SP was rather well telegraphed as well...

The fight with SSK was wasted posting, but whatever.


Your ISO post 61, however, is absolutely terrible

Ok, honestly? Rereading you, I literally have nothing. At best a couple points regarding Vaya, who I see as having a possibility of being town.

I have no idea why I got in that long involved fight with you over really STUPID points. I'm breaking it off

Unvote

Now, as I believe Vaya pointed out, JL has made a really terrible post I would have noticed if I hadn't been too busy locking horns with you

Vote Josh Lyman

I should reread Pom and SP later today.

[UncertainKitten]

I don't think JL's reason for joining the Pom wagon was bad at all. Seems very applicable to me.

Context. Look at what he's contributed so far. And the only thing he contributes upon his return from V/LA? That thinly veiled "Thank God they aren't looking at me" vote.

[UncertainKitten]

Why do you think JL is a better lynch than Pom?

Bias.

Pure and simple. I'm going to look terrible if Pom flips scum and JL flips town.

But I'm willing to take that bet. They both aren't bad lynches. I just favor JL because I feel he's contributed less and yes, I've been taking the factors surrounding Pom into account.

[UncertainKitten]

What does this mean?

You telegraphed the switch to SP FAR better than I remembered.

I have no actual leg to stand on

Obviously. But I think that in general, many townies do too, and I don't find a case comprised of that and following bandwagons, which townies also do, very convincing.

Maybe not. I was way off anyway, so it wasn't going to get anywhere.

Actually...why did it get as far as it did?

[UncertainKitten]

Well, besides MafiaSSK being wrong about IIoA, I am actually immensely enjoying his active participation. It helps me a lot to see what you are thinking overall. I encourage you to continue.

That said, I'm going to bed.

[UncertainKitten]

Why did you want to hide this much?

I can think of several reasons, pending what she says in response to Pom

I disagree with Pome about Alma. I think Alma's request for alignment-change targeting strongly indicates that -- contrary to his claim that SB targeting him will give townAlma abilities -- Alma is likely to currently be non-town. After all, this is what led to his request:

well, I had been thinking about that, and thinking how wonderful it would be if Alma were claiming scum without claiming scum. It'd be a clever way to avoid lynch in the case that SB were running a gambit, and also a good way to get the scum a good test of SB's abilities.

Hmm. I have formulated a couple theories mostly based on Alm's flip/alignment change.

I shall wait until that to reveal them.

Dubiously excluding the UK/SSK/Vaya triumvirate, I think Alma is the most obvious choice. He's almost certainly currently scum, and SB's ability to convert him -- if it exists at all -- is probably compromised by her having claimed it. We're better off killing him now. Vote: Alma.

Apparently I never asked you this despite meaning to. Are you really calling me scum with the person who would HAVE to be bussing Vaya and claiming a day ability that he'd have to keep up for the rest of the game to live? And that Vaya was COUNTERBUSSING? And calling me scum because I derailed the whole plan? Logically, I don't think this triplet can even EXIST.

If you are reasoning I am scum for different reasons, I would love to hear them ^-^.

As for killing Alma now, I wanna see a few things first. Such as SB's ability.

I should add that I don't like Alma in the recent Pome/Alma exchange. It looks to me like Alma is deliberately focusing on minutia of Pome's posts to bring out details that clearly weren't intended.

Nyeh, they both look bad in my opinion, but I agree that Almaster isn't attacking the reasoning in the case so much as playing word games.

My most sincere apologies to all involved; I get home after a shit day of retail and the last thing I want to do is deal with what I realize now amounts to unnecessary additional drama in my life.

Allow me to give you an internets hug, and to wish you the best of luck in resolving that drama. I'm sorry real life is giving you troubles.

[UncertainKitten]

You've misunderstood. I'm not postulating that you three are all scum together. For one thing, making that many connections D1 is obscene. Moreover, I don't think it's really feasible, anyway, for the reason you described.

Ok, understood. See, I recalled reading it earlier, thought I had responded asking you what it was about, and checked myself in iso, noticing I hadn't. Thank you for the clarification.

If you end up failing to come up with said actionable intelligence D2 or D3 or after Vaya flips or whatever, that will put us in a good position to judge your alignment, too.

Quite true ^-^

I doubt that scum are incapable of messing up SB's ability, whether by roleblocks, bus-drives, redirects, or whatever else. That's why I disagree that we should take a wait-and-see attitude toward Alma.

Considering at this point I would be removing 33% of our options for lynch, I can actually see your point.

I...could be convinced to join an Alma wagon, but it's not my top preference. I think Josh does indeed need to die soon. Pom...might need to depending on a few things.

[UncertainKitten]

I'd dislike Pome more except for her interaction with Alma.

I'm thinking about it and actually realize there's no reason to be cautious about my thoughts.

I actually think that they could possibly be scum together given that interaction. Both sides are just kinda "wtf?" to me. And not in a town v. town way. But I really have nothing to substantiate that, just a gut feeling.

[UncertainKitten]

I think Pome is unlikely to be scum with Alma, though, on the basis of personal speculation at how she'd play as scum having seen only townPome in Twilight. I'll glance through scumPome games to see if the evidence is there.

As I said, I'm just guessing. I've won as scum by getting into nasty fights with my scumbuddies, but I know I can't apply personal meta to others.

[UncertainKitten]

SB, the stuff on page 10 isn't a case on Pome; it's the drama where I voted SP. Its only relevance to Pome is that there's a possible Pome/UK connection, but isn't it a bit early to worry about that sort of thing, etc.

The case on Pome is that she is not a very energetic scumhunter.

I suppose you're going somewhere with that Glork vote? It doesn't really seem reflective of your post as a whole.

Then, I ask again. What's the case with Pom?

Reading comprehension FTL.

This, connected with some very bizarre reasoning (and lack thereof) earns you

unvote
vote: Snow_Bunny

And...this is yet another reason why Josh is a good lynch if Alma hadn't claimed scum.

Hell, it's still tempting.

[UncertainKitten]

I agree with UK/SB that JL looks like a good lynch target. But it makes more sense to lynch Alma, I think, all things considered. If someone strongly believes that lynching JL is better than lynching Alma, please make your case; maybe I've missed something.

Bias. Honestly, I'm going to likely vote to lynch Alma shortly. I just don't like giving up the scum I worked for for the scum that turned themselves in. It's irrational, and stupid, and honestly makes me look bad. Worse on the off chance JL is town.

So, in other words, it's not necessarily better, it's just me clinging to the "b-b-but I pointed him out~!" thing.

SB, Alma has not claimed Miller. FF has claimed Miller. Alma claimed that he was a town-aligned Windows user who wanted to use Linux. He implied that there was a role out there that could give him Linux and consequently give him extra abilities of some kind.

Reviewing that I really don't see how this isn't a scum claim, lol. Also, how vague he was about "Well um...I don't NEED to be switched to win but um...it'd be nice" kinda adds to that.

/me sighs.

Honestly, either of them are amazing lynches, and I will lend my support to the Alm wagon if it is shown that JL cannot be achieved.

[UncertainKitten]

Well, I hate being backed into a corner, but you guys have left me no choice. You don't want to lynch me.

Who wants to ask me why? (Careful here, it seems to be a tricky choice.)

Sure, I'll ask why. I've been on you for most of the game, if not THE longest. What could you POSSIBLY offer that makes us not want to lynch you? Normally I'd include a list of commonly claimed roles at this point but I'd rather not give you hints.

[UncertainKitten]

I am awaiting Mod approval for some phrasing in my claim.

Oh, okay

[UncertainKitten]

Oh? Who's Phate's alt?

[UncertainKitten]

Nevermind.

I missed that you replaced Vala. Chalk it up to stupidity.

[UncertainKitten]

I'm just worried that game momentum has been completely destroyed. There was a ton of really productive posting for like 90% of Day 1, but the last few days have been us just sitting around, twiddling our fingers. I fear that the enthusiasm and interest we started the game with has waned somewhat, and that definitely favors scum.

If I weren't already voting him I'd probably have surprise hammered JL just to get the game moving, if that helps any ^-^;.

Well, probably not surprise hammered. But definitely declared intent to hammer.

[UncertainKitten]

JL has not picked up his prod. I will begin the search for a replacement this evening.

Honestly, I think you shouldn't bother unless by some stretch of the imagination we DON'T lynch JL today. I'd just save the replacement.

[UncertainKitten]

Thing is, JL was (allegedly) prepping a claim when he disappeared. While it may not reflect well if he strategically "flaked," it's entirely possible that he *DOES* have a protown role that we really don't want to lynch today. I don't know about you, but I always keep that possibility open. If JL's replacement does claim a role that makes you go "crap, we need to put this off until tomorrow," what do you propose we do?

The problem is we really DON'T have a good back up lynch. If Josh claims a role we want to leave alive, that means that we've effectively cut off 1/3 of our viable options for lynch today (I'm assuming you won't lynch me since I'm going to be trying to resolve the Vaya/SSK situation, and you won't lynch Vaya or SSK for the same reason). I'm honestly willing to take a chance on lynching JL. Of course, I think the rest of the town should chime in on whether JL is worth replacing at this juncture.

[UncertainKitten]

Yes, it would suck for whomever has to replace, if they spend hours reading only to be lynched. But I really don't want us to short-change ourselves if we can get the information we were supposed to get.

I think part of the problem is I'm not thinking about this just as a player. I'm thinking about it both as a mod and as someone who has been cajoled into replacing into games before. And I wouldn't want to be dragged into this situation. Further, SlySly will have a more difficult time finding someone who would be dragged in this situation. Basically what they'd do is walk in, claim, and then be lynched.


[quot="Glork"]
No, I understand what you're saying. And while part of me is getting cold feet (and would very gladly lynch any among Pom/Iece/SP as an alternate), the other part of me wants to stick to my guns and knows that an alternate lynch is basically impossible without an extension.
[/quote]

Yeesh, thanks for catching that. I completely forgot about them thanks to this all consuming Josh issue. Pom or Iec does seem like a good choice. For some reason I'd like SP to live a little longer. Probably just bias.

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP:

No, I understand what you're saying. And while part of me is getting cold feet (and would very gladly lynch any among Pom/Iece/SP as an alternate), the other part of me wants to stick to my guns and knows that an alternate lynch is basically impossible without an extension.

(Fixing quote tags)

[UncertainKitten]

Fair enough regarding Josh. I still feel sorry for the replacement.

[UncertainKitten]

Do you know how this is called? Stalling. Stalling=boring.

It is. But there's not much we can do about it.

[UncertainKitten]

Fair enough regarding Josh. I still feel sorry for the replacement.

Maybe before we hang them from the rafters, we can tell them how sincerely we appreciate their stepping in to be our corpse.

Oh, of course ^-^.

[UncertainKitten]

/me sighs.

It means we should lynch Vaya because Faraday is insane/naive/paranoid unless MSSK, who needs to show up and answer this, can tell us if he gets the same sort of result (Guilty instead of alignment)

In which case we still can't be certain to be honest. Wouldn't it be lovely to put in two non-sane cops, one day, one night? (assuming SSK is a cop of some sort)

[UncertainKitten]

If SSK can help us evaluate the claim, that's fine. He should be careful to avoid unwittingly assisting in a fakeclaim, though.

Good point, actually.

The Iec vote has already been resolved, of course, Faraday.

[UncertainKitten]

Now that Faraday has explained the alignment business a little better, I don't think he's necessarily insane. But I'd still maybe be OK with lynching Vaya, since that puts us in a better position to evaluate the Cops and UK has retracted her theory that she can help evaluate SSK's result D2.

Excuse me? where did I EVER say I retracted that theory? I can totally still evaluate it. Even if we lynch Vaya I can still get some interesting results.

[UncertainKitten]

You retracted your theory to the extent that you now want to lynch Vaya. Prior, you were adamantly against lynching Vaya. Now you are OK with it. So your prior theory -- the one that kept lynching Vaya from being a good idea -- is implicitly void. Or you were making a logical error earlier when you said you didn't want to lynch Vaya. Or I suffer from lack of creativity.

Means at this point I am not sure that SSK is insane. But I was hasty to jump to that conclusion, so I'll go back to my theory.

Vote: Iece for now, I guess. Will gladly switch to Pom.

hmm? Why Iec?

[UncertainKitten]

Honestly, it was mostly arbitrary. That and I want a little bit of parity in the vote count, because I think it makes for more interesting decisions.

Well played. As it happens I agree. Though I'd like to see the latest vote count.

[UncertainKitten]

BTW, if I get killed tonight, I'm innocent. Just an FYI.

Oh.

[UncertainKitten]

I'm serious.

I know. SlySly really IS a bastard.

Ah, feel the love!!! Just for clarification, my parents were married at the time of my conception and they are still married.

[UncertainKitten]

Can you explain this more? I'm totally down with a Vaya lynch, but I don't get your reasoning.

It's null reasoning now. I also realized I was trying to rely on a silly meta that wouldn't necessarily hold in a bastard game.

But basically, I figured that Faraday was pretty much claiming insane cop so SSK was probably sane. I have since retracted this opinion though.

[UncertainKitten]

I'd be comfortable punishing him for a mistaken guilty under these circumstances.

Even if his guilty can be verified?

[UncertainKitten]

What do you mean by that? If he's correct and Vaya is scum, there's clearly no reason to punish him.

Rather, his guilty can be verified, without losing either of them. I expect to get more of a net gain out of my strategy than we would by killing Vaya.

Also, unrelated, but I'd like to point out there is a possibility of a scum cop, either with Faraday or SSK. So don't assume either is confirmed.

[UncertainKitten]

Should add that I've never been in a game with a non-sane Cop. Is it common that they're led to believe their results are 99% certain? I'm assuming not, because you and Faraday used the wording of his claim to infer his sanity.

Generally the way I phrase cops in general is that they get a result of guilty or innocent, and when I tell them their results it's put as "you conclude that Playername is Guilty/Innocent"

note the use of "you conclude"

[UncertainKitten]

Basically, you have a big mystery ability that you are asking me to trust in a game where abilities are (as I understand it) deliberately misleading. And you briefly even chose to abandon your plan. And this is a mini, anyway, so it's not as if we can afford to put-off Cop results by a day in general.

Well, first, SSK isn't confirmed as a cop, that's just been the easiest way to put it. Second, I have reason to believe that my results should be at least somewhat trustworthy. Thirdly, I did briefly abandon my plan because I figured things had become obvious and we wouldn't have to spend a night wasting time.

I think we can handle waiting because the benefits can be effectively just as good as a cop investigation.

[UncertainKitten]

Is your ability useless if we lynch Vaya, or does Vaya's being alive just provide an obvious use for it? Don't answer if it isn't proper to, etc.

Hmmm...not...USELESS, but would have a very diminished current benefit.

Thinking upon my reason for thinking sanity would be implicit in SSK's PM and your new information that sanity is implicit in yours (not to mention SSK's 99% number), I am reasonably confident that sanity would be implicit in his message.

Don't misunderstand, it's not necessarily implicit, just...it's a situation where I trust the basic function of my role.

[UncertainKitten]

Eh possible? I guess, though I'd assume a fake claim was more likely than a scum cop surely. Can't see much use in a scum cop.

Role cops, for one, fake claim purposes for another.

Just as a frame of reference, can everybody please just name the one person whose posting you have found scummiest, regardless of role information? A secondary choice would be just fine and dandy, too.

Faraday. But only because of Josh.

Hmm, for second let's go with Pom, but I have been giving her a subconscious pass for the same reasons SP consciously outlined. So, I suppose that excludes her.

Well, it'd be nice if Vaya posted more, even if his life is spared for today.

[UncertainKitten]

To you and any other investigative roles: It's a BASTARD game. I don't think anyone can be 99% sure of anything.

Don't assume my role is investigative. I can be pretty sure about this given the very NATURE of the role.

[UncertainKitten]

#2. MAybe UK for being slightly dodgy

Dodgy? Could you elaborate?

Because that would be a role based reason to vote him and thusly he's not on my list. And of course anyone who tries to undermine the truth is scummy.

Does your role PM confirm your sanity in such a way that you KNOW it's the truth?

Actually, I've changed my mind. Let's massclaim tomorrow.

At any rate, JL is still definitely the best lynch.

Vote: Faraday

You do realize this will make you look TERRIBLE should Faraday be lynched and flip cop.

SSK certainly isn't behaving like someone with information on someone being scum either, I mean if I'd got a guilty I'd at least want the person I got it on lynched, it'd give some information, but he just doesn't seem to care.

I'd like to think he trusts me, but that would kinda be precluded by him accusing me, ne? I do agree he's a little fishier.

The partial-reveal means that dead players will be revealed as "Guilty" or "Innocent" without additional information. This jives perfectly with what Faraday claimed as getting for his investigation results, so either he happened to guess at how alignments/investigations would work (very highly unlikely), he had inside information about reveals as scum (unlikely at best, though possible), or he's telling the truth.

This would have been my guess, but do you have anything that supports this officially, or is it conjecture? Rather important to establish, IMO.

One thing that struck me this morning: If I were scum, I'd probably want to keep the cops alive, at least as long as they continue to put faith into their own investigations. I'm not really sure how this reflects on me, since I've stated that I 100% believe Faraday's claim, but take it for what it's worth.

I will also go on record to state that at least one of the players who just tried to re-rail the JL/Faraday lynch {Phate, SB, SSK} is probably scum. I'm still willing to accept SB as innocent given the manner in which she partial-claimed, so SSK and Phate are both up on my list of potential scums.

Please resolve the apparent contradiction.

[UncertainKitten]

Thank you, SlySly, for the random quote fix. Well done .

I shall deign to read Vala then ^-^.

[UncertainKitten]

I am not your average MafiaScum player. I'm pretty sure I (still) don't think like most people do.

Even so, if it's possible, there's probably an explanation for the apparent contradiction. I wouldn't mind it being resolved, since I'm reasonably sure someone as celebrated as you also has the ability to on some level explain their thought process.

[UncertainKitten]

Also, to elaborate on the previous point: Scum knee-jerk reaction is "COP! GET IT KILLED!" I'm pretty sure that, given SSK's "99% certainty" of information earlier, that your average player isn't thinking "a cop in a bastard game can do more harm than good." Fishy seems to have recognized this, even going as far as to use it as reasoning to keep his vote on Faraday, so he's lower on my list. Most players, I think, would hold to that initial reaction without thinking "How can I use this Cop to screw over the town?" Heck, the fact that "I would keep the Cop alive" didn't occur to me until today, should tell you that those two posts aren't inconsistent.

Understood. To be fair, I technically could have been considered as someone finding the idea of a bastard cop harmful in that I derailed the Vaya lynch to do a confirmation check.

I'm unsure what this would mean though.

Anyway, been looking at Vala. It's kinda scary when your first 9 posts of the game are all IIoA and I don't see a stop to it in sight.

[UncertainKitten]

And...indeed the IIoA continues. I can't believe that that, coupled with the crazy Battle Royale theory didn't ping everyone's radar. But yeah, all 15 posts involve ZERO scumhunting and 15 posts of IIoA. Actually more like 13, since I can't include the replacement request posts.

/me reads Phate

Phate's first real post is decent, all things considered.

Too bad it drops to an obsession with Josh, and more importantly his activity, whereas with the case stated he could move on to interacting with other players.

This is basically a sarcastic confession. Why did no one notice this?

Then the call for massclaim and more tunneling on JL and...nothing else.

I am suddenly VERY comfortable with

Unvote, Vote Phate

[UncertainKitten]

I personally don't buy your argument. I have entertained making (and have possibly made, IIRC) posts like that as town before. I don't see how honesty is a scumtell.

It is more liable that scum would hang a lampshade on antitown behavior as opposed to town.

Also, why do you suddenly decide to defend Phate half heartedly, and only counter one of my points anyway?

[UncertainKitten]

Wait, wait, wait, I got lost a few pages ago between Faraday's claim, SSK and Phate. What's with Phate? Other than wanting to lynch Faraday (which I can't say much about).

Iso him and decide.

Why?

I think the page I linked explains it well enough, actually.

Because my defense IS half-hearted. I agree with the other arguments against Phate. I just disagree with that particular part of the accusation.

then you're just being nitpicky ^-^. But fair enough.

Also, Pom seems to be following the wagon with just about as much effort as you defended Phate with...dunno what to do here.

[UncertainKitten]

At #1. I just feel that UK is hiding too much. I don't know how.
At #2. It could not be the truth but I really think it is.

We are at an impasse here. You and I have roles that we feel by their very nature are not going to lead to false results. I'm pondering whether it's worth it to check you at this point or if we should just lynch Vaya and see what happens.

Ok, fine, would a sanity issue adversely affect your result, SSK?

(Also, I would like to note that SSK is rather inconsistent here. He suspects me, but is giving up what he feels is a guilty on Vaya for MY results. I don't understand how this contradiction can resolve itself)

(I am yelling at everyone post-game when Alma is scum btw.)

Even if we lynch him later?

[UncertainKitten]

So, I'm not actually here today. I'll catch up tomorrow.

[UncertainKitten]

Doesn't look like a lot to catch up on. If the set up is cults instead of mafia, I think we discussed that earlier as possible. I'm willing to lynch Phate on that hunch, as well as how bad his iso looks. (Granted, my threshold for "willing to lynch" with an existing wagon is rather low given how close we are to deadline)

[UncertainKitten]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I have this game figured out.

Fair enough. Do you think that massclaim would be a good or bad idea with this "Figuring out"? Actually, what WOULD you advise based on what you think you know? Or shall I not ask?

[UncertainKitten]

UK: I thinik massclaiming will put everyone at an impasse.

Then do you have any suggested course of action? And would it be wise to tell all of us what you've figured out, or hold it back? I'm guessing the latter.

[UncertainKitten]

Of course, I could be completely wrong in how I think the setup works... that's actually the main reason I don't want to share. A town operating on bad setup assumptions is more destructive to itself than the scums could ever be.

Fair. Hopefully you can provide other reasoning for whatever choice you do make in voting.

[UncertainKitten]

There is something that stands out about that list that doesn't sit well with me at this point of time.

I think I know what it is, but for the time being I'll let it go.

[UncertainKitten]

Correct on all accounts. I was hoping someone to tell me I'm wrong, but that would require someone else with the same sort of company claim.

In fact,
Unvote
Vote: Faraday

That is the most solid damning thing in this game, unless someone else can claim something similar.

I was wrong then...I thought it was the fact that there was an easy access list of claims for scum to use, given by Iec.

So...yeah, so much for that.

I do agree you have a good point on Faraday at this point...but...argh, I dunno, this feels like a convenient counterwagon to take out a cop and save a scum. I don't like it.

[UncertainKitten]

Have the role-swappers said specifically that they change the OS? I can't remember. That would make the Google claim suspect enough to overrule Rule 7 IMO.

This is very relevant.

[UncertainKitten]

Thats what I've gathered.

And I'm speaking more from a mechanical perspective, rather than a flavor one.

And rule 7 shouldn't be a 'Claim Out Of Jail Free Card'.

I agree here. Honestly, I think the cop claim is what has me sticking at this point.

I'll await the response of alignment switchers like s_b.

[UncertainKitten]

Phate claimed Cop, too. Worst case scenario isn't any different.

He did!?

Well, that does alter the situation a bit. Will wait for s_b though.

wat?

I think weirdly, ok? As I followed through my thoughts I did kinda think "but that's silly, Iec would be able to make said list in a QT or something without arousing suspicion".

I did miss the non OS thing which was pretty terrible on my part.

[UncertainKitten]

I think it was more from GM saying he WANTED to switch OSes, rather than the switchers themselves.

I'm aware. Effectively, s_b might have to claim a little more flavor to resolve this. I think it's worth it though.

Knowing how and where the town stands is not scummy.
The information is public.
I've never even considered such to be scummy.

See previous post. It puzzled me as I thought it throught.

[UncertainKitten]

I think SB followed up by saying something like "Alma, what if I told you that I don't give out free Linux CDs. Should I still target you?" This was around when people started pointing out that Alma had claimed scum without people getting excited about it (or at least was a townie who hadn't considered the potential negative effects of roleswap ^^; ). Could still be that she changes OSes, though. Would like to hear more.

Yeah, basically this. I do recall that discussion, but there still could be something there that will help us with Faraday.

[UncertainKitten]

hmm...I don't think you needed to full claim, s_b, merely tell us you don't switch OS'.

But, that said, I think I'll stick with my Phate vote then ^-^.

I'll admit this makes my night choice decisions a little harder.

[UncertainKitten]

Just read Phate's claim. I think it's a good idea to lynch him still, but let me read these last two pages.

So you're voting me on it not matching up in a bastard fucking game? Are you serious?

oh wow let me read back.

Seems that way.

Seriously this is absolutely garbage. You're out-guessing the mod based in a bastard game for no apparent reason. The fact everyone just happenes to notice this when phate is ran up to L-1 isn't weird at all. Chances of a Phate/Socio connection have just gone way up.

I think I pointed that out...

You could have claimed 'US Bank' and use the 'outguessing the mod' argument.
'WELL JUST CAUSE ITS A BANK DOENST MEAN THIS ISNT A BASTARD GAME'

FoS: SP

That was an enjoyable strawman.

Unless you can name something that is more solid than that, it is the most solid thing we have:
Everyone's company lines up but yours.
Everyone is one of the 3 companies that lines up, but you.

Everyone? I think I only see four claims, and my own role. I don't think that qualifies as EVERYONE.

Its been stated that there are people in the town actively looking to switch their OSes.

What does this do to SBs claim?

It's interesting to watch how Faraday panics as he approaches a lynch. It doesn't feel like someone who believes they win with the town.

Oddly enough, I see him as rightfully pissed at the case on him. I'd likely be raging if I had the same accusations leveled against me.

^^^ This back's up Phate's claim. Vala was the one to originally hypothesise that Snow might be a cop too. Seems likely that maybe it's b/c it matches her own role so closesly.

Good catch. But it doesn't necessarily make Phate town.

Contrast with my behavior at L-1. I give a list of my suspicions, a wagon analysis, some game speculation, claim my full role, suggested a MC tomorrow, and more-or-less resign to being lynched; in other words, I helped the town as much as I could rather than freaking out and starting to OMGUS those on my wagon.

The difference here is you had a halfway decent case against you. It wasn't a Wall banger such as "OMG! OUT OF THE FOUR CLAIMS, YOU AREN'T AN OS!", which, is, effectively, a flavor argument. Still, I'd have gone with it had SB's role had mentioned OS'.

There's a lot of relevant information in the last three pages or so. It doesn't take long to read it all (if you want to ignore my massive wagon analysis post for now, you can), and it will help everyone if you grok it all before you start making your mind up.

I did catch the claim finally, and I think this might be a strange cultish set up, in which case I think you should be lynched.

There are some that glorify their own lynch.

Hehe, making a reference to something?

So, ITT we have three cop-type roles. Two of them are identical for different OS's, one of them is completley different.

unvote, vote: Faraday

What about SSK?

I tried. I'm not sure I agree with Glork's conclusions, but I think there might be a point about this being OS wars...

We really need either Faraday's or Phate's flip, I guess...and honestly, I lean Phate.

I'm aware how tightly this will tie me to Faraday's flip. but I think SP is equally tied to Phate's flip at this point. I really hope this actually gets us somewhere...

[UncertainKitten]

The difference here is you had a halfway decent case against you. It wasn't a Wall banger such as "OMG! OUT OF THE FOUR CLAIMS, YOU AREN'T AN OS!", which, is, effectively, a flavor argument. Still, I'd have gone with it had SB's role had mentioned OS'.

Really? Funny, I don't remember. Care to outline it for me?

It's in one of my posts. I'm sure you can find it.

Faraday, you're ignoring your predecessor's actions. That isn't the entire case against you.

Phate, the gameplay side of the case against you is that Vala was pretty innocuous and you requested massclaim and wanted to lynch Faraday (though that last isn't quite as sketchy now that we know you had reason to find Cop claims a priori suspicious).

This is a fair point. I forgot Faraday was Lymon..

1) Vala flaked.
2) I wanted a massclaim. Explained by my role.
3) I reacted oddly to Faraday's claim. Explained by my role.

Except your role doesn't justify massclaim. Especially with S_b's out there.

As for Vala "flaked", more like, him AND YOU

did not post anything of substance

until you were FINALLY called out on it. I don't see this as pro town.

[UncertainKitten]

Italicized is not worth responding to. As for not posting anything of substance, A) you're wrong, B) what relevant posting have you made during the time that I was semi-absent? All I remember is 'gotta catch up, will read later', and C) if you'll look in my profile at my recent posts, you'll see I behaved similarly in the other game I was in. This was due to RL circumstances.

Actually, what I said was that I'll catch up for the day I missed, which I mostly did, though did miss your claim since it was kinda nested in a wall of text.

At any rate, I do believe I've produced far more content than you and Vala combined, and I'll stick by that. I might check your postings later but honestly the "I'll just post something else to make myself look active" sarcastic confession (I already linked the trope) makes things rather terrible.

[UncertainKitten]

honestly the "I'll just post something else to make myself look active" sarcastic confession (I already linked the trope) makes things rather terrible.

I was pointing out that the entirety of the last two pages had been fluff. Read the post again.

Even better then. Since that just makes it...what was that earlier amusing tell that garnered so much discussion...OH YEAH! Hypocritical .

This was in relation to Phate making a sarcastic post while waiting for me (or anyone) to replace in, not figuring out the set-up. I don't really buy that as a tell at all as it's stuff I'd be as likely (or more) to post in games as town.

Coupled with his behavior upon replacing in, which was basically a "tunnel Josh for great justice, who cares about opinions on OTHER people", and basically just punctuating his point in every post after, not interacting with other people, that post suddenly gains new meaning.

[UncertainKitten]

SSK needs to die.

Assumably this can wait til tomorrow? I see your points, just want to see what happens with the supa~! action tonight.

[UncertainKitten]

We have to explicitly vote NoLynch to have a NoLynch. I just posted this on the previous page. Are you reading the thread? Rolling Eyes

Nice that you picked, though.

I am happy to see a swing vote, especially from SSK. It'll be interesting to see where it leads.

[UncertainKitten]

You can still vote if you haven't committed! It just probably won't count! (7:02 central)

[UncertainKitten]

Wish I could tell you something.


SSK, fullclaim.

I got no result on him.

I shall claim myself

I'm a sanity checker. Obviously I was hoping to get a sane or insane result on SSK. Since I got neither, and in fact, no result at all, I can tell you nothing about Vaya OR SSK. Hence why I want a fullclaim. I could go for a Vaya lynch.

Though reading what just happened, an Alma lynch is also acceptable.

But yeah, I'd like SSK to claim precisely why Vaya was "guilty"

[UncertainKitten]

Is it possible that you were roleblocked, or did the flavor imply specifically that your ability was incompatible with SSK's role?

It's probable given SSK's role. I just got "no result". However, at this point it becomes a 1v1 Vaya vs. SSK, so SSK needed to claim his role anyway.

It's odd I didn't get a sanity on that. If anyone would like to know my rolename, feel free to ask. I only breadcrumbed it in my confirm post

Vote Vaya

Let's see where this goes

[UncertainKitten]

Yes, quite odd indeed. Checking a sanity I would think would give a 'sane' or 'not sane' or something similar for results.
'No results' I would think would imply that there isn't a sanity there to check, meaning its hard to be sane or insane when you aren't an information role.

The thing is, it's quite likely I was roleblocked. Which I was afraid would happen but it was worth a shot.

[UncertainKitten]

...

/me reads her role.

god...DAMMIT.

I fucked up. I sent my action in the wrong format. That's probably why I got no result. I fucking HATE this bastardliness!

[UncertainKitten]

You can confirm that your action was useless because of the format?
Or is that speculation as to why you got no result?

Speculation. But it makes sense. I'll see if that'll get confirmed since I asked the mod about it.

[UncertainKitten]

Ok. I would get the same result if I had been roleblocked or if I had investigated someone with a sanity irrelevant role.

and SlySly confirms that he's not being strict on night action formats.

[UncertainKitten]

Do you trust Glork? He was pro-massclaim, pro-town, and now dead. What does that tell you?

Unvote, Vote Phate

Mirth lets out a scream rivaling that of Satan after the crucifixion of Jesus was complete in The Passion of The Christ. Her anguish is brought on by watching the members of the Evil Empire, armed with MicroSuck Shitsta Home Edition laptops, surround

Glork - Guilty

and pound him into submission with sales pitches of how much better Shitsta is than XPOS. She sobs quietly as the realization sets in that she will be unable to kill Glork herself in this game.

[UncertainKitten]

Sly Sly, could you fix my quote tags?

[UncertainKitten]

UK: Why do you think calling Glork pro-town is a scumtell?

You weren't paying attention, just noticed he died. Suppose he were your scumbuddy. he...

Oh...well, that was retarded as hell

Unvote, Vote Vaya

Sorry, had a terrible brain fart.

[UncertainKitten]

This isn't one player Super Mario where you download the cheats because you don't have enough patience to play the game correctly. Why do people join a game of mafia and try to break it? Do they think it will get them on the good side of that mod? They need to go make a complex, nonstandard game and recruit gamebreakers to play it so they can see how it feels to have players refusing to play in the spirit of the game. That said, mass claim if you like. It ain't going to break the game.

Here it is for all who missed it. Good catch Vaya. Honestly, I don't really expect it to break the game either. SlySly is a competent player. I'm assuming he's a competent mod.

[UncertainKitten]

Since you are voting for me Kitten, and I'm assuming it's because of the guilty, could you respond to the other thing I said?

On another note, to the people voting me, don't you think that in a game with four cops claims so far, and a claimed sanity checker, that some cops are going to have sanity issues and that simply getting a guilty on you is pretty null?

Wellp, that's why I didn't vote you yesterday. But I'm willing to take a chance. I could try to come up with a case on you if you'd like.

My vote stands.

Its clear SSK is lying scum.

Why is it impossible for me to have been roleblocked?

I'm kinda confused at this point and don't know what to do...

[UncertainKitten]

Its not.

I don't know why you would state it as something that would be considered 'impossible'.

Might as well ask, 'Why is it impossible that SSK is scum?'

But the far more likely scenario is that SSK doesn't have a role that depends on sanity.

Especially given his reaction.

Why do you find SSK scum over Vaya when IIRC you were attacking Vaya yesterday? Why is it far more likely that SSK has a role that doesn't depend on sanity? I mean, it seems more likely to me I was roleblocked.

[UncertainKitten]

What I want to know is why UK is so sure she was RB'd.

Occam's razor, maybe? You know, I declared an action that would potentially clear two people or catch one scum. Do you think they'd allow me to do that, especially when they could put the sanity of the cop in doubt easily and prevent me from clarifying it? The fact you are missing this causes me to suspect you, SP

FoS: SP

I don't think you get what I'm saying here. The guilty result is null, without any reason to trust he's sane(or trust him for that matter), it's not any reason at all to vote me.

SP is doing a good job of pushing me to believe the result more.

If there's something about my play that's making you think I'm scum, feel free to make a case explaining why, but don't go trying to make one just for the sake of proving this "result".

Then I won't make a case, since I trust the result. I don't think I would have been RB'd (assuming that happened), otherwise.

[UncertainKitten]

Assuming the case is that you were RB'ed, don't you think you could have been blocked to stop you from clearing me as you were saying you would try to do yesterday? Scum would have just as much motivation to block you if I were town as they would if I were scum.

It's actually a terribly WIFOMrific situation.

I could get behind an Alma lynch and see what happens tonight.

[UncertainKitten]

Occam's razor? Are you serious?

You are saying that...the chance that there is a RB in this game...and the chance that of all people and claimed roles to target...they targeted you...is the the simplest answer?

And not...you know, SSK just not BEING a role with sanity involved?

FoS: UK

You know what?

Unvote, Vote SP

A roleblock makes more sense if Vaya and SSK are both town. And you are pretty obv. scummy for trying to discredit this. You do realize that if I succeeded I'd likely be making two confirmed town? I think it makes a LOT OF DAMNED SENSE to RB me.

[UncertainKitten]

You know what?

Unvote, Vote SP

A roleblock makes more sense if Vaya and SSK are both town. And you are pretty obv. scummy for trying to discredit this. You do realize that if I succeeded I'd likely be making two confirmed town? I think it makes a LOT OF DAMNED SENSE to RB me.

Your logic does not even begin to make sense.
Now you are saying it would be likely two confirmed towns if you weren't RB'd?
...Despite the 'fact' that SSK has a claimed guilty on Vaya.

And with all the claimed roles so far...YOURS is the one thats OH SO IMPORTANT that would need RB'd?


Am I the only one in this game that didn't get a RBing Copping role?!

Excuse me? I think you need to reread my post.

Again, two confirmeds is KINDA BIG. Since we kinda can't trust the cops. I'm pretty sure a sanity checker would be sane though.

I see where you're coming from, UK, but it is literally very hard to beat the glory that is Almacrumb.

I know. I plan to vote him after I get a VC, provided he's not at L-1.

[UncertainKitten]

Excuse me? I think you need to reread my post.
TWO CONFIRMED TOWN?
LIKELY?
You are saying that the most likely scenario is SSK is insane.
And that his results on Vaya were WRONG.
And that HE is TOWN...somehow...

Bastard game, etc.

Why is SSK scum? You never did answer this.

[UncertainKitten]

It looked like he thought you implied 'gotcha scum', and he responded with 'oh well when I use my role I'll go guilty thats why'.

It sounded like he was trying to explain your result on him because he thought your 'no result' was a guilty at the time.

That's...damned good logic. I'm surprised I missed that.

/me sighs.

Unvote

Waiting for a votecount, liable to vote Alma, SSK as second.

So...you think your role...will confirm ANYTHING...let alone TWO TOWN...in a BASTARD GAME?

Cause the one thing that everyone knows about bastard games is how confirmable everything is...

Again, I'm a sanity CHECKER. I was planning on checking myself after SSK if things went awry. I don't think it was too much of a stretch to trust my results, had I got any.

[UncertainKitten]

Again, I'm a sanity CHECKER. I was planning on checking myself after SSK if things went awry. I don't think it was too much of a stretch to trust my results, had I got any.

But,
If your result was SSK is sane, then Vaya would be scum.
If your result was SSK is insane, Vaya would be town.

In neither scenario do you determine SSK's alignment.

So I find your statement of:

if I succeeded I'd likely be making two confirmed town

as inaccurate.

If he was insane, wouldn't that likely show him as likely town? I suppose there's a chance of scum cop but...yeah...

I agree with this. SSK is scum because you didn't get a result, even though Glork-scum defended Vaya, whom SSK believes to be scum?

(That last sentence came out weird. Oh well.)

You do realize

I was voting Vaya

, right? SP is SocioPath.

I don't think scum would have the same motivation to block UK if you were town, as opposed to scum. One investigated (and "confirmed", quotes because it's a bastard game) is worse for scum than one "confirmed town".

What are you saying here?

[UncertainKitten]

I didn't get that at first, either. I think you're supposed to read the question as a rhetorical question and with a really incredulous tone. Then it all makes sense.

I'd like Pom to clarify.

[UncertainKitten]

SSK, where did you crumb that you were a miller?

By me being 99% sure of my sanity. Meh, I guess it was a bad crumb.

Huh...that actually makes a fair bit of sense..

Argh, so confused!

[UncertainKitten]

Didn't you sorta claim miller anyway? I don't like it.

[UncertainKitten]

I get Iec's reasoning. How do you think we should test this? By lynching from the possible scum pool or lynching someone from the prob town chain to test the theory?

[UncertainKitten]

Um, what? Obviously we lynch from the possible scum pool. Why on earth would we take out townies when there are people like Pom, who looks scummy regardless of any setup theory, running around? We can kill two birds with one stone here.

How do we know they are townies? The chain works if we confirm one of you all as town.

Well, if you think my logic makes sense, you should obviously lynch someone on the list. Rolling Eyes I'm not convinced it should be Pome (I'm leaning SSK or FTF atm), but I do think I'm at the point where I'd support a claim from her. Vote: Pome. She shouldn't do it until L-1, though.

As I said, testing your logic. But I'm fine with lynching from the not clear pool.

[UncertainKitten]

Yes, but why would we start by lynching someone on the town list? If they're town, then 1) it could have just been dumb luck and had nothing to do with the theory and 2) we lynched a townie. If we lynch from the scumlist, we are less likely to get random results, and we get rid of a scummy player while doing it. Lynching from scum list = good.

As I said, it was just a question. I honestly wasn't sure which would be the best play. Hopefully others will answer.

[UncertainKitten]

Lynching someone we think is town here would be bad play, and it wouldn't work as you seem to think it would anyway. This town chain isn't so solid that revealing one person on it as town would completely confirm the rest as town. It's not impossible, for instance, for me to be scum who derailed the Alma wagon to look town, or for you, UK, to be scum who stopped my lynch for the same reason.

But you understand my logic. I agree that this might make more sense.

[UncertainKitten]

Well, I think I have a basic idea of why Iec finds tubby scummy, and I guess I agree with it.

Honestly, this game lost me like two or three pages ago. I'm trying to keep up but there's too much going on :S.

I'd like to see a votecount before I jump on tubby.

[UncertainKitten]

Unvote, Vote tubby

L-1.

I think it makes sense from what I've read.

[UncertainKitten]

No result last night.

I targetted Iecrint with proper formatting and immediately got back no result

I feel that he might have had a role that didn't have a sanity

Obviously this had no bearing on things.

Now, why are you voting me SP?

[UncertainKitten]

Now, why are you voting me SP?

Because you are scum with Iec, as given away by your play.

Huh?

[UncertainKitten]

vote: Vaya

There was a strong iec-Vaya connection day 1, and I don't see anything to weaken it.

Hmm...I think I have a post on this, don't I?

Can you point it out?

I probably can, thinking on it.

[UncertainKitten]

HEY WAIT! DIDN'T YOU GET A GUILTY ON VAYA, SSK? WHY THE HELL ARE YOU DEFENDING HIM?

[UncertainKitten]

First case

Apparently I cleared Iec because I couldn't find anything outside the Vaya connections. That was stupid.

Sure

Vote Vaya

[UncertainKitten]

...you flipped guilty Iec.

I'm not going to fall for your gambit, and it's kinda lame you'd try it.

[UncertainKitten]

Told you SP.

Bah.

But hey, mini slot cleared.

Fixed. I'm gonna be much meaner in the large version of this game for those who don't follow the rules!!

[UncertainKitten]

My scum hunting is top notch REGARDLESS OF SIDE.

Bullshit. You called me scum were wrong as hell.

I always find scum with a massive percentage in my favor.

This I guess is decent.

Good game SlySly, a little too complicated for me to really get a handle on, or I would have been more useful. At least I didn't get lynched.

And yes,

I was innocent all game

[UncertainKitten]

But I was town. And you've played with me long enough to know how I play.

Hopefully you knew damn well I wasn't scum.

Logic does not a townie make.

[UncertainKitten]

This is true.
But, I've been known to say (and stand behind) that I would rather lynch anti-town town that I know is town, than very pro-town scum that I know is scum.
(Barring obvious end-game and possible end-game scenarios.)

And that's retarded. Granted, you were an SK so it doesn't matter as much. Had you been a town vig I'd consider your behavior far more anti town than mine.

It's a shame I dropped the case on Iec though. I need to learn to follow through more when I get a read. Saving SSK and Vaya was mainly because I thought I was seeing town v. town and I've been trying a new experimental playstyle with SSK.

You're a good player, and I like your play style...but when I have to repeat myself enough times...kill mode gets activated.

This doesn't jibe with everything else you are saying. Trying to soften the blow or something?

[UncertainKitten]

This is true.
But, I've been known to say (and stand behind) that I would rather lynch anti-town town that I know is town, than very pro-town scum that I know is scum.
(Barring obvious end-game and possible end-game scenarios.)

And that's retarded.

I've been told such anytime I state that.

You're a good player, and I like your play style...but when I have to repeat myself enough times...kill mode gets activated.

This doesn't jibe with everything else you are saying. Trying to soften the blow or something?

Pretty much.

Whatever. I am actually forced to cede you are a good scumhunter when you aren't being a fucktard. TTGL mafia was amazing.

You mean your "case" that I was scum with Vaya? Razz

I wish people had followed me against SP's very silly attack on him. I might have gotten +like points. Sad

Obviously! I was right for the wrong reasons!

You are partially right. You would have blocked investigation attempts targeting mafia. That would give no results and they wouldn't have had the option to run an alignment script.

Oh yeah! Why did all my reads fail?

[UncertainKitten]

Well, that sucks.

I mean, hell, I was targetting scum BOTH TIMES! I should have known they were lying .

[UncertainKitten]

All three times, actually. It's cute that you doublechecked that it was your wording that led to no result on SSK. ^^;

Oh, no, at that point I was hoping I was too scummy to be "roleblocked"

But it didn't work.

[UncertainKitten]

Meh. I was lost after D1. I sorta gave up there :S.

[UncertainKitten]

Which only confirmed my suspicions even more so.
Cranking the scum dial from 9 to 11.

Huh? On who? Me? That's kinda stupid to do on someone who's (now) confirmed town since the beginning of the game.

[UncertainKitten]

Then why wasn't I lynched, SP?

Riddle me that. If I'm so "scummy" then the lynch mechanic should deal with me.

Therefore, you might want to revise what you consider "scummy"

[UncertainKitten]

The thing is, scuminess is quite subjective. People get lynched for being "scummy" in the eyes of the town. Your unilateral opinion on scuminess doesn't dictate whether I was playing scummily or not. What dictates that is whether the majority of the town thought so, thusly lynching me. If I had truly been the scummiest player, I would have been lynched D1.

[UncertainKitten]

I'm just saying, pursuing you for your lack of logic, and pseudo-contradictions, and absurd assumptions, not seeing clearly, and etc...
...doesn't tarnish my name. ;D

Cept it makes you wrong, which does "tarnish your name".

You've played with me enough to know how I play. And I'm pretty sure that if an outside observer looked at my behavior, they might facepalm, but they'd be able to read townie intent. And that's really how you scum hunt. You don't use a list of tells, you figure out if the "scumtell" is being done to hurt town or if it's a misguided attempt to help town.

[UncertainKitten]

Cept you were an SK, so I have no need to believe you.

But you still didn't make the distinction.

Was it being done to intentionally hurt town, or was it a misguided attempt to not mislynch based on bastard results?

I think the answer is clear.

[UncertainKitten]

Nyeh, honestly, I have a bit of favoritism. I like playing with you so I'm less likely to think you scum, which is problematic. I do the same with others I play with a lot.

I'll admit killing me was a relief since I WAS lost this game and overall useless, but I don't agree I was scummy if you actually critically thought about my posts.

I notice you didn't answer the other points. Good going ^-^.

[UncertainKitten]

You still didn't answer them. I've reread your post.

But, guess what, you were wrong ^-^. I don't think I played well. I just disagree with your assertation that I was the scummiest player. Hence my argument with you.

[UncertainKitten]

I disagree. No lynch of a town player is ever "good". In fact, it WAS handled the best way possible by me being NK'd. Wrong isn't silly to throw around when the facts state I was town and you pursued my lynch. Whether your reasoning was "right" or "wrong", the result was wrong, and therefore you were wrong. That implies you need to reassess how you handle me.

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP: Sorry, it also implies that I need to reassess how I play as well. Both of us were wrong in our own ways. Actually, you less so since you WERE an SK. However, you say you were playing as town, and from a town perspective you were wrong.

[UncertainKitten]

Good question ^-^. I don't want to "get away with a bad playstyle", hence my EBWOP, but I also don't like cookie cutter scum hunting. I'll do it my own way and succeed eventually. You need to figure out how you'll compensate your reads to be accurate wrt me. I don't think that I play the same way as scum as I do town, so it shouldn't nerf your scumhunting ability. In turn, I need to not just rely on the fact people don't tend to lynch me and work on my scumhunting and being a little more logical.