Open 172 - Mini Love - GAME OVER!

[Nikanor]

I /confirm in the name of Oscar Wilde.

[Nikanor]

Gogogo confirmations!
/confirm.

[Nikanor]

That's ten people. I start by throwing my hat at Slepz for being Canadian, yet not being able to understand what I am saying. Lazy Francophone, not bothering to learn English....

[Nikanor]

So does that mean I can begin RVS with a vote Nikanor? (Sorry, but I really like your avatar)

That, and I've been scum in the two games we've been in together (although in one of them you were dead before I replaced in, so we didn't really play together per se...).
Also, why are you apologizing? That's not to say I don't appreciate the compliment.
Voting is pointless at this point. I doubt mole will count the votes placed before he officially starts the game.

[Nikanor]

That's everyone, in record time.
I can see this is going to turn out to be a good game.

[Nikanor]

Haha, I know, right?
I just got killed in a newbie game for being confirmed town as well. :p
Also, why are you voting for a confirmed townie?

[Nikanor]

I think they have a name for that, dramonic.

[Nikanor]

Also, why are you apologizing?

Why are you avoiding my questions, Looker?

Vote: Looker.

@dramonic: Looker has seen me as scum, too.

[Nikanor]

Nik cannot be scum... it's counter-nature

Says the guy voting for Nik.

[Nikanor]

then please explain your reasoning if it is not random.

Vote: Yankee

For trying to prolong the RVS.

Unvote. Vote: Yankee.

For obviously not reading the thread.

[Nikanor]

"I've said this a million times" is a hyperbole. The person in dramonic's representation actually did kill millions of people.

Maybe he teleported everyone but five people out of the city before blowing it up.

[Nikanor]

Because my vote would be the 4th on him. AKA L-2.

In your opinion, how bad is an L-2 vote in the RVS?

[Nikanor]

So who thinks the lovers should claim?
I'm pro-loverclaim.
Here are my reasons:
-The pro-town lovers will gain nigh immunity to night kills. If one set of lovers dies, we automatically lynch the other to catch scum.
-We can focus on other players, narrowing our day one lynch pool to eight.
However, I do acknowledge that it would put us in lylo after two mislynches, barring a doc protect, when it would usually only be mylo. I believe the pros outweigh the cons in this situation.

What do y'all think?

[Nikanor]

The problem with that is that the two mafia goons could claim to be lovers and we might overlook them. I am not so sure that the benefits outweight the risk in this situation for the town, but i could be wrong...

It's an open game. False-claiming on day one is suicide.

[Nikanor]

Yup, I'm happy with my Yankee vote. I agree that Khamisa needs to do something, though.

But maybe this could be a good strategy, i just dont see it....

'Maybe this could be a good strategy, but I'm not going to try to debate it in order to better inform my decision. Instead, I'll vote the guy who thought of the plan!'

[Nikanor]

i dont feel it is worth risking 3 townies to catch 1 scum

Actually, that's a good trade, imo. It increases the power role : townie ratio without increasing the scum : town ratio.

[Nikanor]

To be honest, I initially saw Nikanor's proposal of claiming right off-bat as sneaky and shady and kind of like cheating, but if there's any reason I shouldn't be feeling like this, let me know. It just seems like he wants our lovers to turn themselves in.

Actually, I posted it because the game was stalling, hehe.

[Nikanor]

@Looker: Right now it's 3 VM (Vanilla Mafia), 8 VT (Vanilla Town), and 1 Doctor.
That gives us a 3:9, or 1:3 scum:town ratio, and a 8:1 townie:PR ratio.
Now, say both the lover sets die today, for whatever reason.
That leaves us with a 2:6, or 1:3 scum:town ratio, and a 5:1 townie:PR ratio.
I haven't included lovers as power roles here, since they are only useful in that they confirm each other if we lynch the other set of claimed lovers, for some reason.

[Nikanor]

okay the townie:pr ratio going up is not at all helpful after the game has started unless the scum:town ratio has gone down. It is not like they PRs are worth two.

It is useful because it gives our doc a better chance of saving someone.

[Nikanor]

I feel I should mention though, if this were to happen for some reason a better way to do it would be to have one lover from each set claim.

I heartily endorse this idea as much better than my own.

[Nikanor]

and in the same vein it gives the scum a better chance of killing the good doctor.

True. I agree with your plan of one person from each pair claiming.

[Nikanor]

Nikanor: so what's the plan if one lover from each pair claims? How do you see this playing out?

Well, the advantage of this plan is that if we ever lynch the scum-town set of lovers, there will only be one claimed lover that can be killed by scum. That lover will be doc-protected, so we'll have confirmed town there, unless the scum can hit the other lover by chance.
If we lynch the pro-town lovers.... well, we'll lynch the other claimed lover.

[Nikanor]

So you're basically telling me that we have a half-half chance of breaking even, and a half-half chance of having maybe one protected town if nothing happens to the doc, and still only barely breaking above even.

Well, we're not going to lynch our lovers off the bat.
Also, think of it like a cop claiming after the scum roleblocker has been killed in a cop-doc-RB game. The cop gets guaranteed protection, even if it does mean the doc is at greater risk.

only barely breaking above even.

So you still agree that we will break above even? Why are you opposing this plan, then?

[Nikanor]

Stance = What you put your support behind (I'm anti-RVS)
Behaviour = What you actually do (I try to end the RVS)
These definitions allow for independence between the two. Basically, this is where 'saying one thing but doing another' would come in.

[Nikanor]

You're welcome, dram!

[Nikanor]

I have played with Netlava before and he is never this well thought out or insightful, especially on such limited information.

I have experience with Netlava as well, and I agree with you here.
However, a change in playstyle is not a scumtell, unless that same change in playstyle would be somehow beneficial to scum, which it is not, in this case, unless you have experience with his scum meta.
Yankee, do you have experience with Netlava as town, Netlava as scum, or both?

[Nikanor]

ani, who do you think is scummiest? Do you think it is scummy to unvote after the RVS while lurking and with no actual scumhunting content?

[Nikanor]

(1) At this point, either Netlava is framing someone or really badly misinterpereting it. That's all I can pick up.

Any particular reason why you say this? Point refution would be nice.

(2) Well, it takes after another game, and it's polite to do, just in case. Also, everyone is posting while I'm sleeping.

I'm posting when you're awake.
And that's the beauty of forum games - the person you're asking the question of doesn't have to be online or present to answer. So, question away!

[Nikanor]

But when someone does something that causes such a link to be made, the suspicion falls on the linker, and not the linkee.

Agreed. We should probably be more careful with declaring links in this game, however.

[Nikanor]

Meh, it's not like we can't decide what to do once we've lynched the treacherous lover.
Actually, now that I think about it, I'd like for the lovers to NOT claim. If the town lovers are killed, we get an easy scumlynch the next day. This line of thought is consistent with the ratios I've laid out before, where 3 townies for 1 scum is a good trade for town.

[Nikanor]

if we myslinch today and the lovers are claimed we're in MyLo day 3.

I think that we should always consider ourselves in mylo on day three if the town lovers are still alive.

[Nikanor]

Hmm, I guess it's true. So what do you propose? Claiming won't help.

If our doctor is still alive and the treacherous lover is dead, one of the townie lovers should claim for the doc protection. This reduces the chance that a pro-town lover will be hit.

[Nikanor]

That is IF the treacherous dies. Which relies on luck really.

Luck, and a willingness to lynch claimed lovers. In this case, reference to the lover nighttalkings is vital (and by 'reference', I don't mean 'link'. That'll get you modkilled).

[Nikanor]

Since lovers were invented as a role, I believe.

[Nikanor]

They love each other so much that they'll commit suicide if the other dies. Do you really think they'll have a quiet night?

[Nikanor]

Also, why am I buddying to Nik?

Yes, that is what he is asking, dramonic.

[Nikanor]

I dont feel like I'm buddying to you. I'm asking why he's saying I'm buddying to you.

It doesn't help when we are two of the most active posters in this game, either. The two of us are the only ones posting from 158-168, until Locke comes in at 169.

[Nikanor]

Yankee needs to be lynched.

[Nikanor]

Yankee needs to be lynched.

Why is that?

Because I said so.
Also, you've been scummy, but that really isn't as important as my first argument.

Slepz needs to come back

Agreed.

[Nikanor]

Later he defends you, so we get:

Actually, I didn't defend him. I answered a question for him, that being the difference in definition of two words.

[Nikanor]

What we need right now is a quickly-built bandwagon with absolutely no reasoning whatsoever.

Unvote. Vote: Looker.

[Nikanor]

It would help by putting pressure on the wagonee.
And where did I say I wanted a hammer?

[Nikanor]

Where do you say why you're voting Netlava, Yankee? Oh, that's right, you're voting him because, 'he is never this well thought out or insightful.'
Do you have any real reason to be voting for Netlava? I don't see how that is a scumtell.

[Nikanor]

Where does horrible playstyle and anti-town behavior cross over into scumminess and intentionally pushing for a mislynch?

It doesn't. Severely anti-town behaviour doesn't mean scummy.

This I could attribute to RVS, but in light of later stretches, this, too, is a stretch.

What 'later stretches'?

The lover-claim proposal was a fiasco

I accomplished my goal of boosting activity. We got some opinions on the thought of a claim. I don't see how it was a fiasco, as you claim.

I don't see how that flies. Did you try to pull a fast one? But anyway, nothing happened, no suspicions were cast, it was ignored. So much so that he pulled this little stunt:

Whether you like it or not, that was my main motivation behind asking that question.

Where does horrible playstyle and anti-town behavior cross over into scumminess and intentionally pushing for a mislynch?

That is unfair. How am I supposed to know that you are town, and thus that you are a mislynch?

I still am liking my vote on Looker.

[Nikanor]

What is Nikanor?

[Nikanor]

Ah, sorry. I've been busy this weekend. Thanksgiving and all that.

[Nikanor]

Nikanor, I noticed that you said that Yankee needed to be lynched earlier. What do you think of Yankee atm?

I still think he needs to be lynched. I'd be okay with a Looker lynch as well.

Unvote. Vote: Yankee.

[Nikanor]

What's the case on Yankee again?

Read above.

If Yankee flips scum, I'm going to remember this post of yours, Snow.

[Nikanor]

The above is not enough. What's the case?

I'm not going to explain it to you. Just read Yankee's posts. Do you not find him scummy?

[Nikanor]

Well, yes. He's kind of scummy. Vote: Yankee

I'm going to remember this, too~.

* For refusing to back up his votes with more than just "Don't you agree?"

Most of my suspicion comes from gut.

* For going back and forth between votes to see which one will stick.

Yup. I found both Looker and Yankee to be scummy. I have no idea why you people have such difficulties building a solid bandwagon. :/

* For talking so flippantly about lynching lovers.

What's your point? If we never lynch any lovers, we will lose. You wouldn't want that, would you?

Lol. It is scummy to ask why someone is being railroaded?

It is scummy to ask for the case on confirmed scum, yes. Not that I'm calling him confirmed scum, but as I said in the thing you quoted, I'll only take Snow's post into consideration if Yankee flips scum.

Snow Bunny, I presume you did a read of Yankee's posts like Nik asked you to, since you say you agree that he's scummy. What exactly do you find to be scummy?

I notice that Snow_Bunny has ignored this. If Yankee flips scum, Snow deserves a lynch for her obvious distancing on Yankee.

Moi? What did I do?

Lots of stuff. If it makes you feel any better, I think Yankee is scummier.

And hopefully so will everyone else if Yankee flips town, you can't bully people into believing what you believe. Ask my science teacher

That wasn't the point of me posting that. The point is that Snow looks like Yankee's buddy, even more so now with her vote on Yankee.

Apparently not. The only way that should have worked was if Snow hadn't already read. A re-read with no guidance shouldn't yield different results, but o well.

But it did. And do you know what that means? It means that she's scum with Yankee.

~~~~~
At this point in my post, I notice that the Yankee wagon has been built much too quickly for him to be scum. Disregard everything I've said about Yankee being scummy for now. Snow_Bunny is scum for her vote on Yankee.

Unvote. Vote: Snow_Bunny.

~~~~~

Because I'm wondering, does this quickly-assembled wagon on Yankee fit the bill? And, if so, what are its intentions? Are we trying to lynch Yankee or just draw out the scum? Are we trying to pressure Yankee? I don't know what's going on here. I actually thought we were trying to draw out the scum, because...well...that's just what I thought...

Maybe. Why are you asking?

When you get the time, Batt, can you better explain what this means?

Battousai replaced out, unfortunately.

[Nikanor]

I say we lynch the claimed lovers. If HH is scum we got the treacherous, if not the other loverpair has scum in it and the townie will reveal himself to help the lynch of scum occur.

Why do you assume Yankee will not be the scum?

I don't really think Yankee is scum. His wagon has built much too quickly for that.

How am I scummy for voting one person? How? Explain. Your reasons fail to reach me.

Your reason was scummy. You said, 'What's the case on him?' I said, 'He's scummy, don't you agree?' You said, 'Yes, I agree, actually. *Join bandwagon*'
Voting patterns are one of the best tools for catching scum.

I still think Yankee is scummy, but let him be for now. Nikanor, however, with his tunel-vision and constant baseless attacks on me, deserve a vote. Trying an early myslynch? Won't work.

Baseless? No. Stop strawmanning me, thanks.

What's with you and remembering things? If you have something to say, say it now. Keeping info from town is not good. I still don't get what's this relationship you want to build between Yankee and me. And, so, now that Yankee has claimed lover, what are your thoughts on me?

I still think you're scum.

[Nikanor]

@Kirby: Khamisa is likely to be town, imo. Do you want to join me in voting Snow_Bunny? You did give them equal scores, after all.

Also, you are pushing a little too hard that SnowBunny is scum because of her supposed distancing on Yankee. You then switch your vote to her because she's voting Yankee.
It looks like you and Yankee are scum and you are trying to maneuver your way into a vote on someone other than Yankee.

Let me phrase it this way: Do you really think Yankee would be this close to death so quickly if he were town? Do you really think everyone would pretty much ignore his lover claim if he weren't town?

[Nikanor]

@Kirby: Khamisa is likely to be town, imo. Do you want to join me in voting Snow_Bunny? You did give them equal scores, after all.

No, and the chainsaw without explanation is noted.

You obviously don't realise the definition of a chainsaw defense.
To make it clear to you: It would be chainsaw if I attacked you for the apparent reason that you attacked Khamisa.

Let me phrase it this way: Do you really think Yankee would be this close to death so quickly if he were town? Do you really think everyone would pretty much ignore his lover claim if he weren't town?

Is this directed at Kham or me?

Khamisa, obviously. That's whose quote I was responding to, after all.

[Nikanor]

She hasn't done anything to catch my eye lately, but it doesn't mean she's not scum.

Also, I'm just wondering how

that

manages a 7.5 on your scale.

[Nikanor]

Sorry, the definition I had in my head of chainsaw was that you come in and defend a votee before he/she has had a chance to. Your example strikes me more as OMGUS.

You're still not getting it, haha.
I'm trying to convince you to come over to a wagon which you have ranked as equal in scumminess to your own. That's all.

It's mostly based on past actions: not letting the RVS discussion go, lurking, etc. And not only did it manage a 7.5, it also garnered a vote.

Well, I feel your Snow_Bunny rating was more justified. Another thing you should do, Kirby (if you're town, I mean) is go through Khamisa's recent posts. Do you think they are scummy, null, or townie? It looks to me as if you're ignoring the more townie posts of Khamisa and going straight for the scummy ones.

@Yankee: If you're town, stop self-voting. At least give us something to work off of once you are dead.
If you are scum, keep self-voting, and tell all your partners to jump on your wagon now.

[Nikanor]

What about her play struck you as being pro-town?

I didn't say her play was pro-town. I said she is likely to be town.
Her postings give me good townie vibes. Why is that, you ask? The way she words her statements makes her look more like newbtown trying to scumhunt than newbscum trying to fakescumhunt.

[Nikanor]

Do you really think Yankee would be this close to death so quickly if he were

n't

town?

Sorry, I typo'd. The negatives messed me up.

Yankee, do you think I'm scummy? Your 313 makes it look like you're voting me because you're confused.

Looker's 309 is just a pile of WIFOM and strawmanning, and I'm not responding to it.

Snow_Bunny's lurking isn't helping my suspicions of her.

[Nikanor]

Snow_Bunny's lurking isn't helping my suspicions of her.

Erm, OMGUS, I mean, not lurking.

Snow, ignoring the bandwagon targets (Yankee and I) what do you think of the other players?

[Nikanor]

Then, when he changes his mind, instead of admitting it was a bad (scummy) idea, he insists he posted it because the game was stalling...hehe . I believe he fully intended on following through with the lover lynches. Nikanor wanted to kill our lovers (which is a good move, by the way. Like I said, you're smart)

Well, it was a bad idea, but a) bad ideas are not always necessarily scummy. I'm sure you've had bad ideas as town before, so don't try to make it into a scum tell now. And b) my motivation really was because the game was stalling. I know from experience that a good way to pick up a stalling game in its early stages is to discuss how we can use the setup to our advantage.

But it was this part that really ticked me off. I'm currently town; however, I'm studying how mafia work within games, particularly this one, and I was all set to study the different tactics and everything when Nikanor busted this out on me, a quickly-builty bandwagon with "absolutely no reasoning whatsoever." The guy proposed a mislynch, and on ME!

What's your point? My choice actually wasn't random. There are two types of people who wouldn't be threatened by a random bandwagon with no reasoning: town, and confident scum. Since you don't seem like the kind of person to be a confident scum player, I figured your reaction would be roughly indicative of your alignment. My results? Well, things like what I just quoted aren't helping you very much, that's for sure. I'll have to check back to be sure, though, as I forgot to do so earlier. :/

He then jumped wagons just like that, never giving any reason why he picked me in particular or whether he thought me scummy or anything.

Well there you go. I just did, hehe.

Another example of Nik being a bully - he bullied Snow into voting Yankee. (I thought this was scummy, btw, so somebody should probably be keeping tabs on Snow)

You must be really sensitive if you consider 'don't you agree?' to be a form of bullying. I mean, seriously?

I still stand by this, convoluted though it may seem. You form a bandwagon on Yankee the way you tried to do me but when his gets up there, you unvote. Yankee does the same thing with you, votes you, gets you up there, and then unvotes. I'm lost right now, will pick up with this again later. Right now, I'm hungry. STEAK!!!

That quote is what I was referring to when I said WIFOM, by the way.

[Nikanor]

Looker seems to be getting more stupid as time goes by. "Quickly-builty?" Seriously?

Why are you trying to discredit Looker? It was obviously a typo, but it seems you are looking for reasons to call him stupid.

[Nikanor]

animorpherv1 needs to get in this game.

[Nikanor]

I dunno, it's not that I actually think he's stupid, it's just that he gets sillier and sillier as the game goes on.

Why did you call him stupid, then? Why are you backtracking?
Obvious scummy discrediting tactic is obvious.

Unvote. Vote: Vino.

[Nikanor]

Go go gadget AtE votes.

How is my vote AtE, dram? Explain it to me, because I believe I detailed the reasons for my vote clearly.

[Nikanor]

335 is sooooo appealing to emotions

Tell me why and I might take you seriously.

[Nikanor]

khamisa's boring. NIKANOR on the other hand...

Yeah, Nik's fun to have in the game. I've probably created about half of the discussion in this town. XD
I'll respond to stuff tomorrow. I need to post elsewhere tonight.
Just sayin' hi....

[Nikanor]

Also an OMGUS vote. Nikanor, would you like us to revisit the concept of hyperbole? I'm okay with backtracking on an insult because it was a mistake to call someone stupid and I'd rather not back that statement. What I meant to say is that his posts are getting silly, not that the person making them is stupid.

You on the other hand are acting scummier and scummier all the time.

You don't seem to know the definition of OMGUS. One of the most important things about OMGUS is that it has to happen almost immediately after a player attacks the offender. For example, your last sentence here is OMGUS. I vote you for a completely legitimate reason, and you calmly explain why you did what you did. That's good. Then, you go on to say that I'm acting scummier and scummier all the time. THAT is OMGUS. However, since your explanation is reasonable, I'll

Unvote. Vote: Snow_Bunny.

Are you implying that I'm not to be taken seriously if I don't explain how voting someone for saying someone else is stupid is AtE?

Well, everyone else can take you seriously if they like, but I sure won't if you don't explain to me where in my post you see AtE, because I'm really not seeing it.

BTW, I disagree with town and confident scum not being afraid of bandwagons. If someone reaches L-1 because of a bandwagon, and your town, would you not be worried of scum hammer?

That's really not the point. Town shouldn't feel threatened by a random bandwagon. Scum should feel threatened by a random bandwagon. I'm looking more at the threat of a bandwagon here, not really what happens at L-1.

There's a contradiction in that post, Nikanor. I bolded it for you. And you're right, that wasn't bullying per se, it was more coaxing or coercing.

I'm using the word 'random' in the sense of 'reasonless' here.
Coaxing, yes. Coercing, no.

@Nik, concerning your corrected post about Yankee: Does that mean you think he's town?

Yes.

[Nikanor]

@Mod: Will you give us until the end of the day on the 20th to lynch? Also, I'm voting Snow, not Vino.

I don't really want to lynch Khamisa, as the grounds for her lynch are pretty lame. I'd prefer a Snow lynch, but I guess that isn't going to happen.
I suppose I could vote Khamisa tomorrow night if it's needed to avoid a nolynch.

The deadline was originally set for 4PM BST (British Summer Time - the one I'm on right now).
As much as I'm disinclined to move away from that, yes, I'll give you until the evening on that day. Remember, evening for me may be different depending on your time zone.

[Nikanor]

Stop fishing, Kirby. Khamisa should not reveal her lover. If Yankee or H_H is the treacherous lover, it helps to only have one pro-town lover claimed, protection-wise.

[Nikanor]

Why are we confining ourselves to lynching our lovers, again? I think we'd benefit from another night of lovertalk.
@Lovers: Be sure to keep a verrrrry close eye on your partner tonight.
I believe I am still a viable lynch option at this point, if enough people feel as I do about lynching our lovers right now.

[Nikanor]

Most importantly though, Nikanor currently has and has had for a while the most votes, and yet Khamisa is the one who claimed. Nikanor, you need to claim.

Do I? Let me get my role pm, one second.
...
Oops! I deleted it! Looks like I won't be claiming today, sorry guis!

[Nikanor]

This is unacceptable. Claim now or die.

I told you I can't. I lost the pm, and I don't remember my role.

[Nikanor]

I wish I had another vote so I could vote you for this bullshit. You know exactly what you role is.

I'm a motivator. I gave you an extra vote n0, so feel free to doublevote me if you like.

[Nikanor]

So I think Kirby is scum. His reasons for ranking people like he did in his analysis post are complete crap and make little sense, and should definitely be looked at later once he flips scum.

Haha, I lied about being motivator, btw. I'm actually a supersaint! Lynch meeeee!

[Nikanor]

So... your thinking I'm town, yet that doesn't lower my lynchability? How does that work out?

[Nikanor]

Nikanor is ruining this game.

How so? I'm playing to my town wincon as best I can... :S

Oh, and

Vote: Kirbyoshi.

I think he's scum. Not that I think he's going to be lynched today, but I'd at least like for my vote to be on scum when I'm lynched.

[Nikanor]

I'm tempted to speculate that scum wants to lynch you just as much as town does at this point, simply because you're being a jerk.

What makes you say that? If I were scum, I'd be pushing for my lynch as well. Scum always want to lynch town. I don't see the logical connection you're making here.

[Nikanor]

Scum are seeing you as an easy target to pick apart. Since your recent actions (misclaiming several times, etc...) are completly out in left field it makes you a very easy target.

Exactly.
Do me a favour and pick apart my bandwagon when I'm dead, will ya?

[Nikanor]

Are you really so noble and town that you would rather yourself get lynched than see any of our lovers get lynched!?

It appears that way, yes.

[Nikanor]

I'm keeping my vote on Nikanor for the jackassery. You should come to play, and play to win. Not to to play, and play to jack off.

Do you think I am town or do you think I am scum?

[Nikanor]

@dram: <3 reciprocated.

@ani: Well, you'd better make your mind up quickly, deadline is looming.

@Town: As much as I hate being lynched day one, I'd hate even more for our lovers to be lynched right now. I just feel it isn't the right play at the moment. If we can swing a lynch over to someone else, that's great, but it has to be quick, seeing as how we only have four days left. Any suggestions?

[Nikanor]

I'm still willing to go for Vino, if everyone else is fine with that.

[Nikanor]

Yankee, would you still be willing to lynch Khamisa if I claimed to be her lover?

[Nikanor]

Okay, just checking.

Unvote. Vote: Vino.

[Nikanor]

No, I'm not claiming to be Khamisa's lover. I just wanted to see how committed you are to the Khamisa lynch.
But as I said before, I don't think lynching our lovers is the right way to get today. Lynching them now is unwise as our decision is too uninformed.
The way I see it now, I believe you are town. My stance on H_H is still neutral, however, and I can still see him being the treacherous lover. Add that to the fact that we still don't (and shouldn't) know Khamisa's lover, and we don't have enough information to make a well-informed lynch. The risk is too great for too little benefit. I'm all for lynching one of the pairs tomorrow, but today we shouldn't be making that decision.

[Nikanor]

Yankee is a lynch for scum and cowards. The man himself is the main supporter of it.

Yankee (3): Khamisa, dramonic, Locke Lamora

So there are three people voting Yankee right now, one of which is a lover, eh? *Rubs chin*
For the record, I don't actually think all three scum are voting Yankee. However, it does make me scratch my chin.

@Kirby: I've already gone over why I don't want to lynch the lovers. We can do that tomorrow.

[Nikanor]

Is Looker V/LA?

Unvote. Vote: Khamisa.

As much as I want Vino to be lynched, I suppose I could go for a Khamisa lynch instead.

@Khamisa's lover: Now would probably be a good time to claim. You're at L-2.

[Nikanor]

Your odds are meaningless, Khamisa. Stop trying to defend yourself that way, it's scummy.

[Nikanor]

Yeah, I'm happy lynching Khamisa.

[Nikanor]

No, im not

Does the emote signify a joke? O.o

[Nikanor]

There's no point in doing that, since we won't know who is the treacherous if we end up in that situation.
dramonic, I think you have your mind too far into the gutter. I see no homoerotics.

[Nikanor]

I lie all the time as town, falseclaims especially. *shrugs*
That said, I can only think of one pro-town reason for ani to have falseclaimed lover to Khamisa, and aside from being quite disappointed for not having thought of it myself, I'll vote ani if his explanation isn't good enough.

[Nikanor]

I'll tell you about it once ani says something.

[Nikanor]

I'm happy about this lynch. The mod has confirmed that ani recieved the correct role pm (i.e. a non-lover pm), and ani's explanation was crap.
@ani: I would have let you off the hook if you said you were falseclaiming to see if you would be counterclaimed. Then, when no one counterclaimed, we would be absolutely sure that Khamisa's lover was treacherous. That is the only pro-town motivation I can think of for falseclaiming lover.
I'm going to throw the hammer down in my next post, assuming nobody has anything else to say about the matter.
Anyone?

[Nikanor]

If ani is scum (which I think is likely), he's just going to quote the town lover pm and say it was the one he was given.

[Nikanor]

Who be stealin' my hammah?!
I said I wanted to wait to hear from everyone before hammering, Netlava.

[Nikanor]

I'm going to hold off on voting for now. I find Netlava's hammer suspicious, and I think that everyone on the ani wagon should be scrutinized. Scum would have wanted to take advantage of the situation and prevent any possibility for ani to clear himself before the lynch went through.

dramonic, Kirbyoshi, Vino, Yankee, Head_Honcho, Netlava

Take out the confirmed townies, and you have dramonic, Kirbyoshi, Vino, and Netlava.

It is very likely that two of these four are scum. I'm not going to get into it now, though. If anyone else wants to do that, be my guest.
Netlava, Vino, Kirby, and dramonic are now at the top of my suspicions, in that order.

[Nikanor]

She gets a pass for now.

[Nikanor]

Look at Locke's death. You can say that scum were hunting for power roles, sure. But you can also say that Locke was killed because a) he wasn't suspected, and b) he wasn't on the ani wagon. If b) is true, then we can hypothesize that both scum were probably on the ani wagon. This is complete speculation, and I don't expect it to be taken seriously.
I also think that if Snow_Bunny were scum, she'd have had me killed last night.
I'm giving Snow a pass for now, but her activity had better be stepped up a notch.

One person I'm interested into looking at is dramonic. His vote was on Yankee when both wagons were at L-2, and his hammer on Khamisa had some fishy wording in it.
Looking at the votecount when both of the lover wagons were at L-2, I think that Vino could have easily swung the lynch over to Yankee if he wanted to do so. This gives me pause in voting Vino, and makes me want to reassess my opinion of him.

Looking at Looker's posts, I think that one of dramonic and Snow is scum (probably Snow). I want to review Snow and dramonic's posts to see what I can find. Specifically, I think that the ease with which Snow voted Yankee is disturbing, especially when she thinks I am scummy at the time (links: iso 6, she thinks I'm scummy; iso 9, she agrees with my vote on Yankee).
I also see that Looker and Snow were both pushing the idea of a dram-Nik scumteam. This is sending signals off in my head like a klaxon horn.
Oh, and don't forget that Snow had her vote parked on Yankee at the end of day one.
~~~~~~~
Sheesh. I need to start doing research before giving people the pass. Now Snow is back up to my leading suspicion.

Vote: Snow_Bunny.

~~~~~~~
Anyone else notice how this post made a complete 180 after I looked at Looker's posts? >_>

[Nikanor]

Btw, I didn't edit or even preview that last post, because I felt the thought process I went through to get to Snow_Bunny as scum was better preserved when my post was left un-edited. Read it at your own risk.

[Nikanor]

I think that Snow + Netlava is quite possible as well.

[Nikanor]

his vote was one of the first on Khamisa and stayed on her all day pretty much

Yeah, I saw that as well. I'd suggest an elaborate form of distancing, but my psychologist told me to use Occam's Razor more often in my problem-solving.

[Nikanor]

The simplest explanation is often the correct one.

[Nikanor]

@Nik: What's in Looker's posts that make me look scummy? You know, in my first game here in this site with this account, scum tried to buddy another player, and we later lynch him just to find he was townie, and thus we lose the game. Don't try to rise suspicions on me based on what another player said.

I don't create suspicions based on who flipped scum has buddied. Being buddied is a nulltell, as trying to prove it as scummy would leave rather large pool of WIFOM.
I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with the one in three rule. About halfway through Looker's posts, he gives a short list of his suspicions, looking something like this:
1. Yankee
2. dramonic - Nik - Snow_Bunny
Now, the one in three rules says that one of the three here is most likely scum. I know it isn't me, so that leaves us with dramonic and Snow. I'm leaning toward Snow at the moment, since she also listed Nik - dram as a possible scumteam. Her suspicions toward dramonic actually appear to have cropped up out of nowhere, if you look at her posts in iso.

[Nikanor]

I refuse to make a scumspects list because it will force me to commit to something, which is detrimental to my own scumhunting. I get more information when my suspects don't know they are suspects. However, I will say that Vino is going down on my suspect list while dramonic and Netlava are going up.

[Nikanor]

explain please?

Are you talking about my reads on Vino, Netlava and dramonic? Or are you talking about my reason for not posting suspicions?

[Nikanor]

Also, how is it that everynight it seems that we tend to post at the same time xD Almost like our own conversation, just kinda funny

I dunno, similar time zones? In any case, it's pretty sweet. I get my own quality time with Yankee! Whoooo! XD

Your reads on Vino, Netlava, and Dramonic.

Vino: I looked back at where he called Looker stupid, and it doesn't seem like something Vino would say to his scumpartner. He also backtracked on what he said, which seems to eliminate the possibility of distancing. Vino is still in review, but he's rising in my townlist.

Netlava: His quickhammer is still looking scummy to me. His reasons for voting Vino seem concise to the point of arbitrary.

dramonic: Mostly gut. His attitude of 'Must. Lynch. Claimed. Lovers.' As soon as Yankee claimed is scummy, as well as his push for Khamisa's lynch with his vote on Yankee.

Snow_Bunny: Actually looking more town to me with her last post. I'm starting to waver in my opinion of her as scum, but we'll see how that goes with her next few posts.

[Nikanor]

woot quality time. I guess Vino did disagree with Looker, but that doesnt mean i dont think of him as a townie. I do agree with all your points of Dramonic, but not really on Netlava just because Netlava never once put his vote on my on Day 1 when there were 2 set of lovers. Doesnt seem like a scum would vote for the treacherous pair so early on. Right now i am thinking a Dram/Snow scum pair. What exactly made you think of Snow more as town?

Mostly gut. But again, I'd like for her to post more so that I can make a more conclusive decision.

VOTE COUNT

Snow_Bunny (3): Nikanor, Yankee, dramonic
Netlava (2): Kirbyoshi, Snow_Bunny
Vino (1): Netlava

Not Voting (2): Head_Honcho, Vino

With 8 Alive, 5 is needed to lynch.
3 is needed to lynch at deadline.

[Nikanor]

Unvote.

I've gotta think this one over.
Snow: You were clearly suspicious of me at the end of day one. Why did you choose to protect myself over the lovers? I smell a falseclaim purposefully laced with WIFOM.
Anyone want to counter-claim?

[Nikanor]

So why did you protect me, Kirby? I would have thought the scum would target the lovers, but apparently not.

[Nikanor]

I'm still considering the possibility of Kirby-scum. I need both Kirby and Snow to make a full list of their suspicions now, including full reasons and a score of scumminess on a scale from one to ten.
At the one of you who is scum: I think it might be better for you to come clean now, so that you don't give too much away about your team.

[Nikanor]

Both docs claimed to have protected me n1. There was no kill n1. While I'm not 100% clear (there's still the possibility of scum no-killing), I'm >99% clear, since I doubt scum would no-kill with two confirmed lovers and a doc floating about.

[Nikanor]

Snow_Bunny (4) - dramonic, Yankee, Netlava, Kirbyoshi.

[Nikanor]

I'd rather lynch scum than accidentally lynch our doc. Also, I fully intend to pump all the information I can from the player we are going to lynch before lynching them, so that if we lynch scum, we have a fairly decent place to start investigating from tomorrow.
Also, if we accidentally lynch the doc now, it means I die tonight. I'd rather avoid that, if it's at all possible.

[Nikanor]

Well, I have no idea why they'd try to kill me n1, but I'm all but confirmed now, so they'll definitely kill me the first chance they get.

[Nikanor]

That's what I'm thinking, especially given Kirby's low position in most people's scumlists. However, this:

I fully intend to pump all the information I can from the player we are going to lynch before lynching them

[Nikanor]

Also, tomorrow we're lynching anyone who hammers, unless it's me. I don't want a repeat of yesterday.

[Nikanor]

My suspicious lay in Kirby (duh, though I never thought you were scum. I was getting a good vibe from you.) Netlava follows, then dramonic and Vino. Out of all, I'm still surprised about Kirby. It shows my read powers aren't great yet.

Full reasons as well as a score on a ten-point scale, please.

[Nikanor]

Why would I say I protected the same person twice in a row if it weren't true?

Uhhh, that's what I do when I falseclaim doc. It's way easier than claiming a protect on someone else.

[Nikanor]

It's simply not worth it for scum to counterclaim in this situation.

Wrong. If you had counterclaimed Snow and were acting like Kirby is right now, my vote would have been on you a long time ago, because you are most likely going to die anyway, so you could have at least spent your life trying to get the doc lynched. (This assumes a Netlava scum, Snow doc hypothetical situation).

On an unrelated note, I really wish our day two had been longer so that I could have seen if Snow would have voted me or not.
TOO BAD A SHORT DAY WAS UNAVOIDABLE!
*cough*

[Nikanor]

Kirby appealing to emotion with the "first time with a pr" doesn't look good, in the other hand.

It's called 'playing the newbcard.'

In this game scum counterclaimed me when I claimed cop. Scum can benefit from the counterclaim, as it can possibly lead to town lynching the doc, and thus gaining an advantage.

That doesn't really apply here. Netopalis had no choice but to counterclaim cop, since he was screwed anyway. I think that in this situation, Kirby could have easily lasted until endgame without doing anything, as nobody was suspicious of him.

Why would I say I protected the same person twice in a row if it weren't true? Scum would obvknow the N1 target, and that's why we both claimed to protect Nik N1. But focus on the N2 target. Which one is more likely to be faked: the easy-to-analyze protection, or the one who claims to be newbdoc? I think it's pretty obvious.

That's called the Too Scummy falllacy.

[Nikanor]

Well, kirby wasn't close to getting lynched. So, it's pretty pointless for him to counterclaim as scum.

Yup, that's what I'm thinking.
I guess I have all I want from Snow_Bunny.

Vote: Snow_Bunny.

[Nikanor]

YET AGAIN, I am refused my hammer. Oh well.

[Nikanor]

If no counterclaim occurs we're in a pretty good situation.

Scum is either me, netlava, kirbyoshi or Vino.

Can we lynch obvscum netlava now?

This is the post directly following Snow_Bunny's claim. Notice the lack of unvote.

[Nikanor]

Lol, I'm agreeing that dramonic is probably scum.

[Nikanor]

Man, I love quality time with Yankee. <3

[Nikanor]

you make me sad, Nik. I expected better of you

Whatnow?

[Nikanor]

So we have two lynches to catch the one scum from three unconfirmed townies. If we fail this I'll never forgive myself.
We lynch one of Netlava, Vino, and dram today. I'm pretty sure it's dram.
dramonic, your thoughts?

Before anyone hammers, remind me to post my final thoughts. I have a very good feeling I'll die tonight.

[Nikanor]

I'm not the last scum Nik, don't you feel it in your blood?

That's the secret catchphrase!

Unvote: dramonic.

[Nikanor]

@Netlava: Also someone else mentioned that Vino flip-flopped on Snow Bunny, could they elaborate on that?

[Nikanor]

My vote was never on dramonic.
I'd also like to hear more from Netlava. If dramonic flips town, I'll have no idea who is scum going into tomorrow.

[Nikanor]

Yes. I'm not willing to risk this game on his lynch when I'm so unsure about the other players, however.

[Nikanor]

Netlava Netlava Netlava Netlava Netlava

Vote: Netlava.

[Nikanor]

Nikanor is the most beautiful man there is. that is why he is confirmed.

[Nikanor]

Thanks Yankee! I had had a bit to drink when I wrote that, so... yeah.

dramonic, I know I'm a smart guy, but try not to buddy so hard?

[Nikanor]

Vote: dramonic

Yay! My first win as scum~ <3

[Nikanor]

Vote: dramonic.

If Netlava doesn't stop lurking tomorrow morning, he's probscum.

[Nikanor]

I don't have time for an in depth analysis, but the scum are: Netlava, Snow_Bunny, and Looker.

Hahaha. If this turns out to be correct, I will rofl.

VOTE COUNT
Nikanor (4): Vino, animorpherv1, Snow_Bunny, Looker
Khamisa (3): Kirbyoshi, Head_Honcho, Netlava

I believe this vote count is important. I've taken out the other votes because they don't matter for our purposes.
Now, at this point, I have four votes while Khamisa has three. The votes stay this way (with Yankee hopping off and on Khamisa) until page 22. This is all information instead of analysis. Netalava and Vino, can you please analyse this for me?

[Nikanor]

Four alive means three to lynch. You probably shouldn't be asking that after you vote. >_>

[Nikanor]

Just analyse the voting patterns you two. Your life may depend on it.

[Nikanor]

While editing my wiki, I noticed something.
In Open 167, Netlava also quickhammered a townsperson as town. I'm starting to doubt the scumminess of Netlava's hammer now.

[Nikanor]

Hey yeah. Lol.

[Nikanor]

I'm going to check Netlava's facts tomorrow. Right now I'm leaning towards Netlava as scum, though.

[Nikanor]

Lol 'kay.
Have fun!
Explain tomorrow after you get sleep. Hopefully you don't forget.

[Nikanor]

Sorry, I was at work.
Yankee, I'm going to trust you on this one....

Vote: Vino.

[Nikanor]

Vino still isn't hammered, lol.

[Nikanor]

I care.

Unvote.

[Nikanor]

Elaborate.

[Nikanor]

@Mod: Can you post a link to the scum QT?

... Now why would I do that? The game's still going.

[Nikanor]

Hmm.

@Mod: Would it be against the rules for another player to post the scum QT?

Yes.

[Nikanor]

Yankee, please vote for someone.

[Nikanor]

I dunno. That shouldn't stop you from voting, though.

[Nikanor]

What other games? I only see one other game you're in right now, and that was in night phase when Snow_Bunny was being lynched.

[Nikanor]

Sorry guys! I've been swamped at work. ):

Vote: Vino.

I pick this one.

[Nikanor]

Woooooohooooooooooooo!

[Nikanor]

I agree, great job modding mole! A very fun game, to be sure.

[Nikanor]

Hehe. I'm just too dangerous for you.

[Nikanor]

Are you okay with us seeing the mafia QT, Snow?

[Nikanor]

I was the best scumhunter, obviously!