The Dark Goma Mafia: Massacre of the Cloth (Game Over)

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Jordan

[VP Baltar]

Ok, before I dive into this mess, can we seriously tone it down here folks? I have no intention of reading nine pages a day. That's ridiculous and most likely, unnecessary.

Moving on.

Kise wuld not want us to kill him if it didnt benefit him. Come now, people. Think.

Yes, that is good advice to follow indeed.

Jordan is obvobvscum.

I agree.

Nothing special; but at least by pure luck I havent lost yet

I sense the tides turning.

Are people really taking Kise seriously? Come on people.

+1

Kise may have a suicide-y martyr problem.

Why are you not dead?

I decided to do it. Claim: I'm a miller. I was hesitant to do it, as I have no apparent reason to claim, but I do. I've learned that millers can help investigative roles by providing a "safe" test. And it's better if I claim early on.

(Something tells me that I'll probably end up lynched, but still, I must do what I think it's best for town.)

You're dead to me. KK thoughts?

Vote: Snow_Bunny ('cuz I don't feel like falling for my own trick)

Ok good, just checking.

I am playing a game where I am unsure what alignment is town or not.

Wowzas.

@Khan - How am I racist?

That's what racists say.

Frankly, half of the players who have posted so far are in need of a vigging. Though I have to say, that was the quickest nine pages in the history of mafia.

[VP Baltar]

Hey budddy, don't die so early this time...K

shh, don't encourage anyone.

why should we lynch millers?

Should we not? Don't make me get kublai in here.

Thanks Volkan for making me THINK about this and actually LOOK back at what happened.

I don't know you to be a person who doesn't think about things. You seem to be playing quite reckless this game so far, why is that?

I would also like to know: what about the investigation claim, Kise?

And, if it is legit, did you direct it yourself? If so, extreme coincidence.

Hint: get with the program.

Happy birthday, BM!

[VP Baltar]

Why? The reason I claimed was to help investigative cops try out their sanity

No.

[VP Baltar]

Porkens haters.

[VP Baltar]

Snow Bunny is obvtown. You have 1 post in which to remove your vote from her, or you earn mine.

I can't believe you are actually making me link this game. You just wanted to dig up the wounds after they finally healed.

[VP Baltar]

Snow Bunny read that game? I doubt it. I can sympathise with your meta, but in this case, i still feel it's highly unlikely Bunny is running a gambit. And if it IS a gambit, it probably deserves a good run.

I don't know if he did or not, but it was certainly the talk of the town when it happened, so I wouldn't doubt he could have heard of it. Regardless, I'm willing to ignore it now because there are other scummy characters to deal with Day 1 and maybe, just maybe, it will resolve itself. That being said, I'm not going to support him getting anywhere near endgame and if that means a lynch, so be it.

[VP Baltar]

I like to lynch guaranteed scum day one. Sends a message. That's why Jordan should be dead already.

[VP Baltar]

So we have DeathNote, Benmage, Sajin, and Jordan as scum. Cool.

Why is Sajin scum again?

Why do you think the DeathNote "slip" is more telling than what Stark said?

[VP Baltar]

Socio is ignoring the deathnote situation

You should know from a lightning quick meta read that I generally try to avoid debates on role PM formatting.

From a theory perspective, why may I ask?

[VP Baltar]

stark, why did you tell deathnote that it says "council=town" in his pm, and then later give a long explanation about checking his PM against the OP? That is what I would like you to explain.

Also, why did you just unvote?

[VP Baltar]

Dear Stark,

I don't care if you think your wagon needs to dissolve. Answer my question.

[VP Baltar]

@stark

stark, why did you tell deathnote that it says "council=town" in his pm, and then later give a long explanation about checking his PM against the OP? That is what I would like you to explain.

kmd did not explain this. Please proceed.

@Jordan, who is scum and why?

[VP Baltar]

Only a page over night....that's an improvement I suppose:

Also, Snow_Bunny, what's your name?

Why did you ask her this? I see it as fishing for information.

Can someone also give me a good consise version of why stark is being wagoned? Im trying to string it together and cant tell if I am missing something or if its grasping at straws.

People have answered this already, but I'd like to look at the actual posts, because I think interpretation is particularly important in this case.

The important post is stark iso 4:

Where does it say what is town anywhere? Is it listed that Council=town? If so, point it out to me please.

It should say it in your PM, scum.

unvote

Vote: DeathNote

This is after DeathNote's alleged slip. He was confused over where it was clarified that council is the name for town in this game. Stark comes in and says that this is in his PM and votes him over it. Now, it actually does not say in the PM that council=town.

When questioned over this, stark later changes his story to 'compare your PM against the opening post to determine you are town'.

1. The game begins with the death of "The Giver"
2. "The Giver", as stated in the introduction, is aligned with the Council
3. "The Giver"'s name has been written in green.
4. Green is the color asigned to all dead player/NPCs aligned with the town.
5. I am aligned with the council


I don't understand how this was even a question.

I fail to see how what stark first said equates to his later explanation. I hate going after people for scum slips, and that is why I have asked him to clarify, but this does seem significant enough to me to warrant suspicion. Given the complexity of the role pms, I could see a scum tripping themselves up on it.

The first thing I thought was, "Damn, that sucks..." The first thing I did was ask Mod for clarification on my role. I sent him a message detailing what it was I could do and what I couldn't.

Did you ask if you were town or scum?

Tubby's policy vote is *shudder*. Was he in the game with KK and traumatized?

No, he wasn't.

Snow_Bunny - link to the game you mentioned when you said "In other games with many investigative roles. It helped them clear their sanity.

I can link a game where I, as scum, argued for this exact point to direct investigations away from me, though the miller was real in that game.

The general presumption is that you don't lynch somebody without overwhelming good reason. I've never seen an overwhelmingly good reason for lynching claimed millers. If you have one, I'm all ears.

See the game I linked. KK was found guilty on a N0 investigation and just happened to claim miller immediately (don't ask me how he got that lucky). He survived to endgame and won because of this. I realize it is only one game, but it was pretty highly praised move, and I think it is reason enough to shift the site meta back toward lynching claimed millers well before endgame.

Yeah but thats an obv newbie town move, not a scum move.

Didn't she already say she's not a newbie? She said she had experience on the site about six months ago and then left for a bit. I don't remember if she said how much experience that is. I think I have an idea of what her other account was, however.

[VP Baltar]

I was concerned when DeathNote expressed confusion on the matter. This concern dissapeared over a very brief period of time; incidentally, this particular process would be really nice to see in terms of my wagon.

What made it disappear?

[VP Baltar]

Either way, Spyrex shows how DN implies being council.

Actually, volkan pointed it out to Spyrex. Kise is scum bailing the wagon.

[VP Baltar]

@kmd and spyrex, what are your thoughts on stark's reasoning for getting off the DN wagon?

[VP Baltar]

I should have suspected that response.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: was coming

[VP Baltar]

You disagree?

Yes, I think his response and the DN wagon in general aren't very good.

I'm still pro-Jordan at the mo'.

It's better than sex aaaaand it's the first time I've caught scum in my first vote.

[VP Baltar]

You know whats awesome? Since I posted that:

Kise, Llama, DGB AND Alvinz all post.

Ohh wait, that's the antithesis of awesome.

Didn't some of them catch a prod somewhere in there?

Only the buddy of a miller-claiming-scumbag? Well, sheeyit, if that isn't reaching, I don't know what is.

Said the buddy of a miller-claiming-scumbag.

[VP Baltar]

oh. THere are votes against me. Thats strange.

Don't worry though people. If it comes down to it, I'll make sure you don't mislynch. Just give me time to post if somehow it comes down to hammer. But I'm town. I'm just a sadly inactive town who can't tell a joke from truth especially on a forum

Nonetheless...still re-reading.

Translation: I am scum in mega stall mode.

My vote is still on stark, I believe. And I uphold that.

Why

are

were you voting stark?

Using this argument, who should we lynch today?

You, please.

Llama-You haven't commented much on jordan thus far, thoughts? Also your reasoning for finding stark townish baffle me with its complete lack of logic.

Posts such as this:

Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot I was supposed to do that in all the free time I had when not defending myself from the stupidwagon.

and repeated sarcastic non-sense continue to be his only contributions to the game. I fail to see how that equals town or any genuine effort to scumhunt in your eyes.

In that game, you have a fairly exceptional array of circumstances combining: odds of any given player being investigated, odds of scum deciding to claim miller, odds of that particular scum member being selected as the claimer. In short, it's not only just one game; it's also an exceptional case.

yeah, and I certainly don't disagree with you in that sense. It was a one in a million sort of thing, but it did happen and was remarked upon in several threads, so I feel it is at least worth noting (though I am no doubt biased). Regardless, I'm not worried about SB right now. I want Jordan dead asap.

[VP Baltar]

Stop with the fucking quote pyramids.

[VP Baltar]

Since tubby isnt answering for some reason, has anyone been in a game that tubby was in that had a miller claim?

I have, but I think he might have replaced in after the miller claim...let me do some research and get back to you.

[VP Baltar]

@Llama-sorry, I was correct. There was a miller claim D1 and he was lynched. Tubby replaced in D2 and never made any mention of it after the fact. So, I'm no help.

[VP Baltar]

@kmd, who do you propose bits the C4?

[VP Baltar]

[quote="kmd"]I wouldn't complain about any of:
Vaya
DeathNote
Cass
Snow_Bunny
Benmage
SocioPath
Sajin
alvins95
Kise
Rosso Carne
KaleiÐoscøpe [/quote]
Looks sufficient to me. Plus stark of course.

[VP Baltar]

how do you feel about being blown up milkshake?

[VP Baltar]

Rosso's not a jester.

[VP Baltar]

:headdesk:

Don't turn away from this game for an evening.

Vote Stark

[VP Baltar]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]let's lynch stark

[]===[/quote]
+1

[VP Baltar]

Do you at least now why Socio and alvinz are voting Snow instead of first calling out on my normal play?

Except I am voting alvinz, not Snow.

except you voted him for what seemed like the same exact horrible reasons you voted Snow Bunny.

As it stands right now, kmd and stark are scum together. I agree with Sajin's line of questioning wholeheartedly.

[VP Baltar]

Alright,

Unvote
Vote: Snow_Bunny

^ This is you voting for shitty wagoning purposes.

too. much. stuff. will catch up (hopefully)

Vote: Snow_bunny

Unvote
Vote: alvinz95

^ This is you voting alvinz shortly thereafter, who voted for shitty wagoning reasons.

[VP Baltar]

Who is scummy on those cases and why, dramonic? Also, how are you assured of this if you "need to reread and stuff"?

[VP Baltar]

Yes, but who?

[VP Baltar]

K-scope's power is the ability to know the correct lynch on any given day. Too bad he can't lend it out to others.

[VP Baltar]

@ tajo- Stark's scumminess has been explained in detail several times by several different people. I did so myself here.

In addition to that, he is not scumhunting at all because he said he has had to spend too much time "defending" himself to do so. First day of a large, that is more than enough to lynch on imo.

Snow Bunny is not scum as far as I can tell, so you'll have to ask someone else about that one.

Also,

Oh. Forget my question about Alvinz. I just looked at him in ISO. He's a better lynch than either Snow or Stark.

wtf? So you think a lurker lynch is a better case than someone who has acted outright scummy and refuses to do anything to the contrary? Why don't we just replace alvinz and lynch actual scum today?

[VP Baltar]

@ sociopath as well

wtf? So you think a lurker lynch is a better case than someone who has acted outright scummy and refuses to do anything to the contrary? Why don't we just replace alvinz and lynch actual scum today?

[VP Baltar]

wtf? So you think a lurker lynch is a better case than someone who has acted outright scummy and refuses to do anything to the contrary? Why don't we just replace alvinz and lynch actual scum today?

I know Alvinz can do more than he has so far. Snow hasn't done anything scummy yet. There isn't a good argument against Stark yet. Alvinz is the best lynch of the three.

Do you think it's a possibility he is simply behind in a very fast paced game? What do you think about simple replacing him?

[VP Baltar]

Hmmm, I'm interested in how dramonic can have so many more posts than most people and I really don't know where he stands on much of anything. He's also not voting.

Dramonic, who is scum and why?

[VP Baltar]

Well, my limited experience with dramonic has shown him to take some very odd stances for little logical reason, but for how active he has been I'd think that it would be easier to tell where he stands on at least a few people.

[VP Baltar]

VP, what about Benmage?

Other than his mild reaction to your early gambit, seems to be benmage, though my only experience with him is from Yaw's game.

I at least know he's in the game. Dramonic has that many posts and I feel like I barely know he exists. I don't like that at all.

[VP Baltar]

Q1) You seem convinced that SB is scum, so why are you not voting her?

I do? That's news to me.

[VP Baltar]

Just reread you in ISO. WHere the hell did I see you wanted to lynch her? XD

Pretty sure I said I don't think she should make it to endgame after the miller claim, but I don't think spending a lynch on her right now is the best move when it could potentially resolve itself at night.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Kmd

I'm down.

[VP Baltar]

Alvinz is in how many games and what are they, those of you in the know? All I saw on a quick google search was Plum's game.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, trust me, I looked at dodgeball and his performance here is pitiful in comparison, but if he's simply not going to play then I'd rather see him replaced.

[VP Baltar]

Llama's post 830 is excellent and tubby's attempt to backhand it with sarcasm is quite telling, imo. I agree that tubby needs to explain his massive change in stance on millers from that game to this one.

Also, I'd like your opinion of kmd and stark, tubby.

Of course, this is largely just theory at the moment... since the whole SB thing has gone way beyond his miller claim.

In what way?

No, Yaw's game was pretty bad as far as walls/spam/lurkers. Whether it's why we (the scum) won or not, it was a pretty hot topic in the postgame. Benmage saw that and I believe he tried to replicate it. Thanks for reminding me. I'd forgoten that point against Ben.

This seems like a mega bit of reaching to me. This is what has been bugging me about you kmd. Normally you are a good logical player who tries to argue good points, but all of your cases thus far in the game have seemed overly fabricated.

Knowing all this, I doubt any cop in their right mind would investigate SB tonight

I'd hit it.

If I were daycop, that is. Less chance of blockers/watchers/the gov'ment.

Nice subtle PR direction. I'm sure if there is a cop, he/she can figure out what to do on their own withour your help.

You thought I was DN's scumbuddy? XD

No. I was pointing out that you weren't actually paying attention to the real reason the wagon dissolved. You needed a reason to get off the wagon after it collapsed, and you posted a sloppy reason for doing so, imo.

What do you think of kmd's scumhunting thus far, Kise?

Please correct me if I am wrong on this in Ben's case, because I haven't meta'd him, but I am going to say that odds are he spams a lot just as a personal trait.

From my experience with ben, this is true. I don't know what kmd's experience with him is, but in Yaw's game he did the same thing....so I don't see how it is a scumtell here suddenly.

I don't see Ben spam normally.

benmage posts before dying in Yaw's game: 356
kmd's posts after surviving to endgame: 142
battlemage (known spammer) posts: 359
jammer: 111
Spyrex: 187
Sensfan: 123
Vi: 152
alexhans: 202
GIEFF (mega-spammer): 589


etc. etc. some of those might be off by 1 or 2 posts because I was just going through quickly, but you can clearly see that benmage was indeed one of the spammers in that game, which only recently completed. I don't see how kmd can say he doesn't normally see him do it WHEN HE JUST DID SEE IT.

That was an awesome post Plum.

[VP Baltar]

And those numbers are off. Vi wasn't even in the game till D3 I believe. Alex was one of the leaders D1, but he also slowed. You didnt list DDD, scum who survived till endgame with like 60 posts.

You can pull anyone else from that game and they won't have near your numbers. That is my point. Vi wasn't in the game until late, but she was actively posting still. I was pointing out that kmd's argument you are not an active poster is categorically false

[VP Baltar]

But kmD's argument is that Yaw, the mod said the spam/active posting style was bad for the game/town. So that since I acted similarly in this game, i'd only be doing so as scum.. Which is logically sound, but a false understanding of myself. (This is funny, defending kmd's case against me

Which is what I said is stupid....I don't understand what you are trying to argue with me about it for.

[VP Baltar]

A KMD wagon is an informative wagon.

How so? Anything else to say...been awhile since we've heard from you.

[VP Baltar]

vp i don't explain anything, but i will tell you to look at the time stamp on that game , my join date and figure it out.

See, I saw that and all, but surprisingly that doesn't explain WHY you changed your feelings on millers, which was the question asked.

You may proceed with your explanation.

[VP Baltar]

Maybe it's a dumb idea, but the way in which SB was saying that cops should use her to test their investigations bothered me.

Could it be possible that it's some kind of trap? That she might have some kind of ability that does bad things to people who target her?

Got anything a little more recent you'd like to comment on?

There's also another issue here which I haven't raised yet which is that the "X lynch is not my first preference" post is a scum attempt at a get-out-of-jail-free. It's just not a post that has any point otherwise. If you sincerely think another wagon is preferable then argue for it.

While I can see your point, I disagree somewhat when it comes to large games, especially in the early going. Right now it takes 14 to lynch somebody, surely somebody is going to have to compromise somewhere out of that group. Now, compromising 4 people down your list is an entirely different argument that can be made, but I dont' think the act of being willing to compromise in and of itself makes one scummy in the early days of a game this size.

the slip of stark is brought up and apparently the same applied to SB.

That post of Cass' stuck out to me as well, most notably because I don't remember any slip from SB. It was DN who allegedly made the slip, wasn't it?

unvote: DGB
vote: alvins95

This is the good wagon.

He's being replaced hopefully. You have anything else to say? Have you read the game yet?

[VP Baltar]

ORLY? Last thing I saw from the mod was that he'd picked up his prod today. Why would you assume this?

And yeah I've read the game.

Ah, true enough. I guess that is unfortunate for us.

Anyhow, since you've read the game, is there anything else you think is worth commenting on?

[VP Baltar]

@PZ- Holy crap, I completely forgot tajo was even in this game. Yeah, he definitely needs to be speaking up. I don't view him as a town lurker.

And I agree with Spy, there is a massive disparity in activity in this game that is making me very uneasy. I don't see why there are so many people hanging out in the shadows. We're almost at page 40 people and I don't know who half of you are at this point....that's not good.

[VP Baltar]

@KK-what bothers me is that all of his scumhunting this game feels horribly fabricated. Volkan pointed this out regarding his stances on DN. I pointed it out regarding his "spamming" accusations against benmage. I don't normally feel forced scumhunting from Kmd, so I think it's reasonable to conclude that he's scum.

Has his scumhunting struck you as odd at all or does it seem genuine to you?

[VP Baltar]

Do you think KK is scum PZ?

[VP Baltar]

Stark-why did you ask Kmd to claim at L-3?

Kmd-why did you claim so readily at L-3?

[VP Baltar]

VP, no one else had more than 4 votes (L-10). Either I was going to continue to get run up and claim anyway or we'd be stalled until something actually happens.

Even though we still have 10 days until deadline you think nothing was likely to change?

[VP Baltar]

Vaya, why did you unvote in your most recent post?

[VP Baltar]

What do you think of Spyrex's previous suggestion that given the fact everyone has some kind of power in this setup, it's not a good idea to run several people up to a claim each day?

[VP Baltar]

What factors are you using to determine if this claim is credible or not other than it happened at L-3?

[VP Baltar]

Vaya, did you find kmd suspicious before the claim?

[VP Baltar]

Wow, that was pretty interesting. Right now, my suspicion is that kmd actually is scum who is trying to WIFOM the town into letting him live at least one more day. Kmd, if your power does something to catch an SK, why wouldn't you claim something of that accord in the first place? Why go to all of the trouble of making a claim that is so different from what you allegedly are?

[VP Baltar]

Also, give your flavor again. If I'm reading your claim correctly, you are saying that you are some sort of SK-cop-survivor-lyncher?

[VP Baltar]

Happy B-day, DGB! I give you the gift of Kmd's head on a platter.

[VP Baltar]

So you are basically saying you have a backup win condition?

[VP Baltar]

I still would like you to claim your actual flavor now.

Also, why not give the name of the SK if it is something that you believe will benefit town? You would like to save yourself correct?

[VP Baltar]

bussing your buddy tajo?

[VP Baltar]

bussing your buddy tajo?

No. Isolating him and agreeing with his lynch despite not having reread all the thread.

What gave you that impression?

The fact that you said pretty much nothing all game and then when Kmd is on the ropes you come in to try and finish him off as quick as possible. It's fine if you are. I like it when scum vote their own partners, but at least have the decency to confess to it.

[VP Baltar]

Also,

Kmd, if your power does something to catch an SK, why wouldn't you claim something of that accord in the first place? Why go to all of the trouble of making a claim that is so different from what you allegedly are?

[VP Baltar]

You certainly have never gambitted before. Also, please don't forget that you only claimed this after you first tried to float a JK/vig claim. So...yeah.

[VP Baltar]

Regarding kmd, his (fake)claim(s) are just the cherry on the top of the scum ice cream play he has had all the game. My iso 25 hopefully will discard your "comes in to try and finish him off as quick as possible." theory.

Why didn't you vote him in that post if you were so certain he was scum?

Do you feel you were making original points against him in iso 25?

[VP Baltar]

By the flavor you gave previously, wouldn't Sajin likely be named "The Rodent Tamer"?

[VP Baltar]

Also, I want to see if KK is correct about some double voting ability from Rosso, so he needs to vote at the next available opportunity.

[VP Baltar]

@Plum- I think it doesn't hurt anything to test KK's theory. I'm not sure where he is getting it from, but we may as well try it out. Kmd is all but confirmed scum at this point, so there is no better place to test such a theory out.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not entirely sure what benefit I see in publicly outing whether or not Rosso is a doublevoter. Once that's explained fine, now's as good a time as any because Kmd is getting hanged today no question.

Well, he could be a scum double voter. The only reason I see to keep it secret if he is town is if scum have something to counteract this (see Jahudo's Cowboy Bebop Mafia). I dunno, maybe it is worth waiting.

KK, are you inclined to believe that Rosso is a scum double voter, or are you unsure about his alignment?

@kmd-yes, you are mafia. good effort at causing confusion though.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, if I am mafia, what is the Rodent Tamer? And what about Sajin? How does any of it translate to my claim? I'd like VP or Spy to answer this because I'm not seeing it and they seem to see me as mafia.

Very simple, you made up the term Rodent Tamer (without giving much thought to what you had claimed previously) and Sajin is likely town, who you hope to get at least one mislynch out on before you are strung up.

Make sense?

[VP Baltar]

VP, what happens when Sajin is lynched and I'm still alive? Why is it worth a 1 for 1?

You were slowly heading for a lynch and I think you got anxious (hence your claim at L-3). Obviously you getting one mislynch in before dying is better for scum than you dying outright on Day 1, don't you think? These things aren't so hard to put together.

[VP Baltar]

I think I'm done spamming the thread. Someone hammer. Kmd, the answer to your above and any future questions you pose is "because you are liar liar pants on fire scum".

[VP Baltar]

fine

unvote

vote: kmd

meh io would have rather lynched snow but what ev's

LMFAO

[VP Baltar]

Spy, I think this is going to be the easiest game ever for town and will finally end my losing streak in large games.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, a lot of weirdness seems to have taken place over night. I need to do some thinking for a minute.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I wonder if that's a mod error dram.

Also, I think I have a theory what a scribe is. Did anyone receive any notes last night?

[VP Baltar]

Oh, and

Vote:tubby 216

[VP Baltar]

Closest linked to KK yesterday in my mind through his terrible push on Snow Bunny. He also did his best to go under cover once the pressure got on him. Now stop cutting down my wagon and get on board.

[VP Baltar]

What does "treestumped" mean?

It means you are dead, but can still talk for the remainder of the day.

[VP Baltar]

SC, I know you have a lot to read, are you caught up already?

[VP Baltar]

Translation: more tubby votes.

[VP Baltar]

Retranslation, "You cannot see the trees, cause the forest is in your way

re-read and try agian,

What is the trees and what is the forest in that metaphor? Furthermore, what do you think of SB now that KK has flipped scum? You never explained why your stance on millers changed. I want to know why specifically, not just 'it was a long time ago'. Who do you think is scum and why?

That should be enough trees to start I think.

[VP Baltar]

VP, pretty sure you know something about KK we dont. Spill it.

I don't know anything for sure, but I think KK had the ability to send people notes at night. Maybe. I received one, but I don't know if the information is correct or if the scum were trying to manipulate me. The note I received read as follows: "Kmd wins with benmage's lynch". I'm sort of hesitant to believe it because I think KK sent it to me, but if it's true then benmage could be an SK and needs to be lynched immediately.

If anyone else received a note, I think they should speak up.

I'm liking the pressure on SB right now as well.

[VP Baltar]

Let me put some logic in this argument, if Spyrex actually was scum he would not have tried to kill snow bunny unless he lacks the aformentioned two brain cells.

Also, no one has anything to say about the note I received?

[VP Baltar]

Then again, if his claim is bogus (as at least Papa Zito and me think it might be, although DGB disagrees vehemently), SpyreX could have done anything

Well, yes, anything could have happened, but if you truly believed that they you'd have no reason to lean one way or the other. No scum worth their salt is going to try and kill a claimed miller who is actively under suspicion because it is an easy mislynch. That fact is far more relevant that whatever half-cocked theory you are trying WIFOM.

@VP Balter
Could you explain why this note you received leads you to suspect Benmage is a SK? I don't see how you're reaching that conclusion.

If we have any reason to believe Kmd's claim that he had two win conditions, which I think we may now that he has flipped truthfully, then we know that he had two win conditions 1) Lynch Sajin, or failing that 2) Lynch the SK. We know that Benmage is not Sajin, so if the note is true, then Benmage would be the SK.

Like I said before, however, I don't know if I actually believe the note.

you believe that Spy gave SB a potion with intent to kill him, you should at least believe the Spy thought SB was scum

No. Killing a claimed miller is a pro-town play even if you are unsure about their alignment.

Also, do you think SB is scum, milkshake?

An alternative slant could be that SpyreX is exactly what he says he is - a poisoner with 1 shot NK immunity. Perhaps his potion really did backfire, but the fact he himself isnt dead, if because he is NK immune.

Um, he never claimed to be NK immune as far as I know.

I agree that spyrex should give his full flavor however. In for a penny, in for a pound.

[VP Baltar]

Care to explain that, Ben.

[VP Baltar]

Erm, you've lost me. We're trusting KMD's word, WHY?

Well everything else he said other than rodent tamer=SK has been proven true, correct? Are you saying it's not worth considering?

Duh. So the logical conclusion, if he is NK immune, is that he is scum.

No, it's not actually. have you had your coffee this morning?

Unvote, Vote: benmage

I'm starting to believe my note given his shameless bandwagoning for no reason.

[VP Baltar]

@milkshake-well regardless of the Rodent Tamer thing, I believe there is probably an SK in this game and I think that kmd was telling the truth about his wincon needing the SK dead. Benmage's play isn't exactly pro-town, so I'm ready to follow through on his lynch.

Care to join me DGB? Spyrex? Volkan?

Don't worry, tubby, I'm not letting you off the hook either.

[VP Baltar]

Who gave you the note again? Dont really feel like ciphering at the moment...last night was ruff.

I don't know, therein lies my dilemma. Part of me thinks that it came from "The Scribe" who was just trying to spur on a mislynch, so I was originally willing to pretty much disregard it. However, you shamelessly jumping on the Spy wagon "cause he's always scum" looks to me like you want to rush to the night so you can get some killing done. I don't like it one bit.

VP:Following a note likely given by the scum isnt exactly the best idea. Why would KK know these things anyway?

I'm not necessarily inclined to believe the note, I was just putting it out there. And I don't know for a fact that it came from KK, that is just a possibility. If it did in fact come from him, then yes I agree that it is most likely poppycock.

So what if his ability was true? I'm not sure what exactly happened, nor if it was him the one who gave me this ability. And, I'm following the name logic.

You're really not making sense. If he gave you a good ability, that confirms him. You have no reason to be voting for confirmed people, you silly goose. Unless, of course, you are insisting that he KNEW you got an ability overnight and came in today claiming to have given it to you, even though he really didn't, just so he could get town points. I find that hard to believe.

[VP Baltar]

Pfft..what magical killing could I do in one night? What did the note say again?

Read the thread. It said that "kmd wins with benmage's lynch", or something of that accord (I'm too lazy to open a new tab and look at the PM). Like I said before, he knew that Sajin was his lyncher target, so if the note is true, that means you are a serial killer. However, I dont know where the note came from or how truthful it is.

SC's claim is very interesting. However, if Spyrex is lying, then I am curious how he figured out that SB gained an ability over night.

[VP Baltar]

Pfft..what magical killing could I do in one night? What did the note say again?

Read the thread. It said that "kmd wins with benmage's lynch",]

Post 1238..page 50?

Yeah thats the dumbest thing i've ever seen.

What is dumb about it?

[VP Baltar]

I am against massclaim on Day 2 of a large game simply because of your point number 3 SC. There is no sense giving scum pick of the litter this early. I think we are much better served to be lynching off of behavior at this point rather than trying to break the setup.

[VP Baltar]

Something happened to me last night. I DO NOT KNOW WHO TARGETED ME. For all I know, it could have been ANYONE.

True, but I think you can use reason to at least come to the conclusion that it is MOST likely it did come from Spyrex since he asked you about it before you had said anything.

Wow..terrible

Examples of benmage's voting today:

Hes always scum.

vote stark

down for this move.

Thus, the simplest option isn't believing his claim in this case. The simplest option is believing his claim is fake.

Explain how that is the simplest option when factual data surrounding you receiving a power seems to point in the opposite direction.

ftr, I agree with pretty much nothing milkshake ever says. Just thought I would put that out there. I can't tell if he is really that inexperienced or if he is scum.

I really don't like how rapidly the wagon on SB builds. It all seems a little convenient and most of the people jumping on it don't have a lot of logic behind their votes, imo.

I'm very happy to see that Volkan is coming around to the benmage wagon. I think we should get some proper scumhunting going on.

I would like all of the people on the SB wagon to wisen up and come over to the benmage wagon, which is highly likely to hit scum. kthx.

[VP Baltar]

VP, thanks for the highlight, but whats the point?

To point out that you weakly attack an easy target over a bad vote when you have done just as bad if not worse today.

[VP Baltar]

What do you think of volkan's questions to the mod about power types then?

[VP Baltar]

Spyrex, do you have multiple of the same potions or is it a one shot deal with each of them and its a crapshoot every night?

[VP Baltar]

It wasnt and end all amazing point, no need to look further string him up now. I simply called his flavor odd. Its my opinion.

So you call it a bad point, but you think he should be strung up for it?

This one gets nananna and purple etc etc. You didnt disprove shit. You said it was up to me to prove it accurate. It hasnt been proven inaccurate its a theory. I'm following the theory that has yet to been false. Like gravity. I've yet to fly so i keep walking. God.

There have been a few others that have come out and said their pms don't follow the -xr theory, iirc. Unless you think they are all scum with Spyrex and are risking outing themselves on Day 2 just to save him.

SpryeX saying hes town too wearing a red shirt, red hat. Its not the biggest thing, but nor is it my focal point. Its a side issue that I would like to see resolved.

Really? Seemed to me that the flavor and pm stuff seemed to be a lot of what you were arguing toward. What is your main reason for finding spyrex scummy if not that?

[VP Baltar]

Here is the question I asked to ben regarding his Spyrex vote:

Seemed to me that the flavor and pm stuff seemed to be a lot of what you were arguing toward. What is your main reason for finding spyrex scummy if not that?

Here was the reply I received:

The focal point which makes me think SpryeX may have gone a bit creative in his claim(which I've seen him do)...is because he first says he has no power type, and then references the word 'special'(makes me thing he might've been making some things up as he went).

So the main crux of your argument is indeed "flavor and pm stuff", which you are simultaneously saying is a minor point (-er) and the major point (ability claim). I don't get it. you're trying to outguess the mod at every turn instead of scumhunting, which I think is the result of you trying to ease onto the Spyrex wagon while it was popular.

BM is scum.

you should vote him and stay there this time.

[VP Baltar]

SpryeX said one thing, and than another. If he just opened saying his power type hinted at being special, but didnt say anything specifically there wouldnt be a cause for concern.

Apart from me not thinking this is a fair interpretation of what happened, do you think this is the scummiest thing you can find in this game thus far?

[VP Baltar]

I agree, DGB. Let me be more economical with my words.

LYNCH BENMAGE.

You too Spyrex.

Mod, you have me as not voting in the last votecount. I'm pretty sure I'm still voting benmage.

fixed

[VP Baltar]

The following people need to post immediately: tubby, Sajin, Plum, Llama, SocioPath, Kscope, Vaya, Kise....preferably with a vote for Benmage.

[VP Baltar]

Chamber, what are your thoughts ona benmage lynch? (God, I hate when people make me campaign this hard to lynch scum)

[VP Baltar]

@VP- If you want my vote somewhere else you will need to summarize a case. Not just call for it. Its very hard for me to respond to piecemeal quotes with one liners.

Well, I think it has been pretty clear if you were reading the back and forth with him I have been having. Anyhow, the main reason is that I think he copying others' bad reasoning for getting onto the Spyrex wagon (ie flavor, er theory, etc.) in an effort to get on an easy wagon. When he was called on this, he couldn't logically explain his own reasoning for voting in the first place.

He is scum, you should vote for him.

SB wagon still confounds me and I think there are much better options out there.

[VP Baltar]

I'm saying she should be eliminated before she gets to endgame, be that by a lynch or vig, but I don't even see her being a miller as people's reasoning for being on the lynch. Lots of players are largely hopping on the wagon for convoluted and regurgitated reasoning as far as I can see. If she really has a cop investigation, then let the scum take care of her. They don't want her outing one of them or confirming an innocent.

Now, I know you are going to say we can only take her word on that, but it is very simple to confirm whether or not she was telling the truth: we lynch her or vig her after she reveals the investigation. If she flips what she says she is, it's likely she was telling the truth. If she flips scum, then all the better and we can assess her "investigation" from there.

There is no point lynching her today over people who have actually acted scummy. The only benefit to the SB wagon that I see is if she flips town (and I'm inclined to think she might), we are going to be able to look back and pick all the scumbags off without much trouble.

[VP Baltar]

Mmm.

It's delicious, I know.

Ok. 3 am here so I'm going to sleep on it. Remember if we don't lynch sb, we lose a different role. Instead, so it's not quite a simple a tradeoff as it would be otherwise.

But if she's really a cop, then only a very stupid scum would let her live to either out them or confirm someone else. I see no downside to letting her live through at least the night.

[VP Baltar]

1) No.

2) I disagree.

[VP Baltar]

Benmage has already claimed his power sucks in an attempt to buy town points, so you should vote there SC.

You too milkshake, or maybe we should vote you because you have to ask if you need to unvote first.

Spy, stop talking about voting BM and do it. Lets get this scum swinging!

[VP Baltar]

PZ- do you think SB is scum or not? If so, why the hell are you unvoting just because I took the wind out of your sails? Do you disagree with the logic I presented?

People I think need to be lynched in the immediate future:

Benmage
tubby
milkshake

That's all your getting from me for now.

[VP Baltar]

Why is there no sense keeping your vote on a "dead" wagon if you think the person being wagoned is scum?

[VP Baltar]

I'm not pinning anything, I'm trying to figure out your thought process on it. I mean, imo, I think SB is probably town and there has been scum banging the drum on that lynch for awhile now. I could be wrong of course, but we'll find out soon enough.

As people are now bailing off like rats on a sinking ship, I want to catch those scum and make a nice rat stew for later.

Personally, I don't think giving up on a wagon you believe in is a way to get scum lynched. If I had done that today, I wouldn't finally be getting at least a little support for ben's lynch.

[VP Baltar]

WWVPD?

lol, and yes, this is what any good MS member asks themselves in his/her time of need.

[VP Baltar]

I am totally down with the VP death list WITH the addition of SB before end if still alive.

Well yeah, I was presuming the scum weren't complete dolts and would want to kill the cop tonight, but if they are then we can most certainly string her up tomorrow after she outs one of them or confirms an innocent.

I find it quite hilarious that scumbag tubby has nothing to say after his mega lurk other than "yeah, don't lynch me!"

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote:tubby

Hi!

Milkshake is obv. buddy. I believe at least one of his partners is bussing and can be found in the folks who are going overboard in their explanations of why they are voting.

[VP Baltar]

Holy rolefishing, you guys are crazy.

@SC-what do you mean more posts? I've been quite active this game. I went out last evening so couldn't be here for the four or so pages that were added, but I hope you aren't going to fault me for something like that.

I also still think your mass claim idea is bad today, btw. It allows scum to game the setup far too much, especially if there is only one scum team. *insert chimp call*

Also, it seems more likely that SocioPath is a town RB'er who came forward believing he had caught scum in a lie than him being a scum RB'er in this situation.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Scum RBs are far more common and often claim they are town RBs so they don't have to fake their results. The fact that he claims to have blocked Plum gives me serious pause. I would like to hear his reasoning as well for picking her because that makes no sense to me from a town perspective.

Benmage is still a good lynch today.

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

Also, I hate pretty much everything Sajin posts, and K-scope's and dramonic's votes confuses the hell out of me after everything that happened.

[VP Baltar]

Don't worry, I'm not having a go at you, I just don't have a read on your alignment yet, and I like you and you're a good player, so if you post more then I might be able to take a guess and be happier listening to you

Yeah, I didn't feel like you were attacking me or anything. Just saying I probably won't be posting any more frequently than I am. If there is something specific you'd like me to comment on to help your read, feel free to ask.

As for massclaim - would have totally sorted out all the tubby + plum + SP nonsense, plus the inevitable nonsense that's likely to come from having so many roles... very tempting...

Well, that is true, but it was sorted out anyhow as is without outing every single role in the game first. I'm sure there is plenty nonsense to come, and I can understand where you are coming from, but I still think the cons outweigh the pros even if the mechanics here are different from your standard game.

And I'm all for limmericks. ...who liked to put the fear in all...

[VP Baltar]

SP-why did you pick Plum to block. Do explain.

[VP Baltar]

I gotta admit, benmage's resignation to his lynch feels honest to me and is making me have second doubts. I really would rather not force anyone else to claim today if we don't have to. For one, we don't even know if scum have safeclaims in this game, so we could end up on a continuous cycle of running up targets (I'm sure SC would enjoy that )

Benmage claims his PR isn't important, so part of me still thinks he's a decent lynch to eliminate a suspicious player with minimal cost to town if he's telling the truth.

On the other hand, I still don't like SP's roleblocker claim. I don't prescribe to the school of thought that a scum RB wouldn't come forward like that because even if he came forward and Plum was lynched it still wouldn't necessarily mean he is scum. If Plum did flip town, then he can still stick by his guns that he blocked her and she was lying about something.

We also have no clue what the size of the scum teams are, so if he thought she was from an opposing scum team (which is still possible) and he had caught her in a lie, he most definitely would want to come forward. Her lynch and a scum flip would give him major town points.


SP-sorry I missed your explanation of why the block, but can you explain a bit further because I don't think that quote clarifies it much. What about her "stance" on KMD didn't you like? What about the quote you cited made you think she was likely to be scum? Did Kmd flipping 3rd party influence your decision at all?

[VP Baltar]

or we could all lynch milkshake and the town's common sense would be better for it....

[VP Baltar]

1) it was a joke, 2) milkshake is not in the same area code of my town list

[VP Baltar]

eh, the note is nothing more than WIFOM until we get some confirmation on it. If another player receives one tonight or something, then we will know it wasn't from KK and we can take it more seriously.

Benmage has his own set of behavior that is lynch worthy apart from the note if you want to go that route.

[VP Baltar]

I agree with Spyrex on town losing focus here. The early part of large games is about taking action. Right now we need to be lynching one of the already claimed folks who have acted scummy and just move forward from there. No one is really contributing substantially to the discussion any more so it is time we take some action.

I still support the benmage or Sociopath lynch and whichever is in the lead is who I will be voting for. Hopefully everyone else will begin to focus a bit more. I see no reason for six people to not be voting at all at this point.

[VP Baltar]

Hey sociopath, since you are apparently following the game enough to jump on the shiniest bandwagon, how's about you answer my questions....

[VP Baltar]

I missed it, cause the same question keeps coming up, and I keep answering it, which makes you scummy in my eyes.

So you are claiming that you missed it because it was there a lot of times...oooook.

Also, your answer makes no sense as to why you would want to block Plum, so it fails to answer my question. I'll try to be more specific. What about her reaction to Kmd's daykill made you think she was more likely to be scum than anyone else, thus causing you to block her? (Hint: the answer isn't that you "didn't like it")

Or to put it yet another way, what about her reaction made you think it was more likely to come from a scum player than a town player?

[VP Baltar]

The genuineness of her reaction seemed forced.

And that was the scummiest thing you saw in the entirity of day 1?

Of all the night choices out there, why is mine getting the third degree?

Because it doesn't make sense from a town perspective to block Plum. Also, I'd hardly call asking you a brief set of questions on it "the third degree". And you're probably a scum roleblocker, as I said before.

I'm not going to delve out all the knowledge of how I determine who to RB, lest paranoid scum tries to out my style and try to outguess me.

So you are claiming that other things helped you to determine your block but if you revealed them the scum would undoubtedly be able to out WIFOM you and kill away. That's hilarious.

You are caught scumbag. Now help us lynch your buddy benmage.

[VP Baltar]

Well, my dear watson, as I pointed out before, his culpability as a scum roleblocker is very little. I believe he did indeed block Plum and I think when she claimed to have a night action, he saw it as an opportunity to get easy town points off of a player who was clearly lying. Now, had Plum been lynched, we would have had three possible outcomes:

1) She flips town-This doesn't reflect great on SP, but he honestly would have thought she was lying, so not only is this unlikely in his mind, but he does in fact have the truth on his side to defend himself if this did happen. Plus, the WIFOM of it is exactly what you are arguing. No one is going to believe that a scum would come out with a fake block on D2 just to get one mislynch. Cost-benefit ratio is whack.

2)She flips an opposing scum faction-Major town points for SP here, particularly if he is of the scum faction that is opposite of known scum KK.

3) She flips third party-More town points for SP. Perhaps not as strong as if she flipped mafia, but still looks good and could be enough to get a free pass to endgame.

I think people were quick to dismiss the scum scenarios where SP would come out and claim his block, and I really hate his explanation of why he would block Plum over every other player in the game. I mean, if you can't find a better scum target than that in this game, you are just not trying in my opinion.

[VP Baltar]

Not to mention that RB is one of those claims I wouldn't think someone would thrust out as SUPER TOWN.

Well, you wouldn't think one would block a fairly pro-town looking player either, but shit happens.

Now, I guess Plum's secret "mason" friend could be a scum partner and there is some kinda wild wacky rolecopping going on and SP comes out with "trap sprung" roleblock but... day 2? This many alive?

This is a better argument to make against it, and probably enough to make me not follow through with the argument today, but it also operates on the premise that Plum is telling the truth. Keep in mind that it went down like this:

Plum: Hey Tubster, what's your name?
Tubby: Wacky Waving Inflatable Arms Bunny.
Plum: That's cool, I knew you were.

There are a lot of hidden variables we're not privy to in that exchange. I think the most likely scenario there is that Plum is indeed telling the truth, but I have a feeling that this is one of those games where things become infinitely less certain if you try to "figure it out" based on night actions.

tl;dr

still voting benmage

[VP Baltar]

Also, with the amazing amount of fragmentation we've had would you say KS is a BAD lynch?

No, it's not a bad lynch. I understand your plan fully and can see it is already working quite well. If you give me a votecount and a wink, I might be inclined to help.

[VP Baltar]

Waiting for an actual votecount. Kscope, I suggest you claim because my vote is coming your way this morning most likely, given how active the mod is.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Kscope

[VP Baltar]

*High fives Spyrex!*

Yea! I'm a zombie too.... This game keeps getting stranger.

We still have this double voter issue apparently. Anyone receive a note last night or can we confirm that it came from Kublai?

[VP Baltar]

Who is the weather person again? Also, who did you hide with tubby?

[VP Baltar]

I don't want SC dead for the record. I have a theory right now about the undead stuff, but I'm not willing to discuss that at this point.

[VP Baltar]

re: SC affecting town players-This wasn't part of my original theory, but it could make sense in some ways like a public investigation. If a 'touched' player loses their power (which we don't know since Spy used his ability on the dead woman), they become a zombie. If SC is not able to turn scum into zombies, then it essentially confirms the zombified players as town even though they would have no power and would be sending in "ghost" night actions. That's all speculation of course until we have another night where Spy and I can confirm if our abilities still work or if SC touches someone and they don't become zombified (and then are lynched as scum). Woot imagination!


Spy, why did you vote benmage over PZ? I thought the whole purpose of the Kscope wagon was to prove how much PZ was chainsawing for benmage.

Also,

Vote:Papa Zito

Who are your suspects now that Kscope has flipped town, PZ?

[VP Baltar]

Did you receive the info or did your partner, Plum?

[VP Baltar]

Elmo, I want you to vote somebody. Preferably someone without any votes on them already.

Plum, if you have info that SP is scum, I'd like to hear it because I haven't liked his roleblock claim since he came out with it.

Stark, stop rolefishing.

[VP Baltar]

Honestly, I don't see a lot of value to a pro-twn double voter and I am especially suspicious since elmo and his predecessor didn't claim it right away when people were talking about it. Why try and keep it a secret?

On the other hand, if elmo is telling the truth, then I suspect scum may have some ability to affect the votecount as well as a counterbalance.

[VP Baltar]

dramonic is pretty high on my scum list due to his massive amount of active lurking.

[VP Baltar]

I don't think I quite understand how dramonic's information guarantees or even makes it likely that milk is an SK, so I think I need to look back closer over things or have someone explain it to me.

@Spyrex- are you the big spoon or little spoon?

[VP Baltar]

Not enthralled with the milkshake lynch at this moment, though I do have some pages to catch up on. Tubby is so obv. scum it's not even funny.

Unvote, Vote:Tubby216

Proper post coming later today when I have a bit more time.

[VP Baltar]

It's simple really guys. N1, dram blocked milk and there was no "strangling" death(also, only one town was killed). N2, dram didn't block milk and the "strangling" death was back(and there were two town killed).

This is pretty ridiculous logic considering how many PRs are in play this game. There could have been any number of things that would have prevented a "strangulation" from occuring Night1. Docs, Roleblockers, busdrivers, bulletproof vests...who knows. Someone is going to have to give me better evidence than this if my vote is expected.

Vp, claim your ability while you are around.

No, I won't be doing that. Thanks very much. Your continued rolefishing this game has officially gone from cutely ignorant to blatantly scummy. Not only have you placed some sort of omen over Spyrex and I, but you now seem to think you have the authority to make people out their roles for the scum to pick off. If you want to know my role, then tell your scumbuddies to off me tonight.

So the evidence is pretty damning. It seems that unless milk was the target day 1, or there's some other reason why a sk kill didn't go through d1, milk is the sk.

Explain how it is damning? What makes that more likely than any of the other possibilities really? Don't get me wrong, I think milk's play has been quite scummy at times, but I don't see how dramonic's info is any kind of conclusive.

I'm cool wih the lynch, just view an sk lynch as a mediocre result.

If you actually believe he's an SK, then how is that a mediocre result? Eliminating a kill should always be a high priority for town as it would likely enable more chances to lynch scum.

Really... Pretty sure PZ was pushing a scope lynch for ages. I think PZ is town.

But he didn't really rally the troops until you were getting strung up, correct? Anyhow, what makes you believe so strongly that PZ is town?

Honestly, I don't see a lot of value to a pro-twn double voter and I am especially suspicious since elmo and his predecessor didn't claim it right away when people were talking about it. Why try and keep it a secret?

On the other hand, if elmo is telling the truth, then I suspect scum may have some ability to affect the votecount as well as a counterbalance.

Hmmm Elmo may be scum.

Yeah, I would still like a more substansive answer to that question actually. What was the point of hiding the double voter ability? Also, why is Elmo making it a point to not participate at all after he replaced in?

That quick wagon was fail.

I am down with a milkshake lynch but not until after he claims. If nothing else it could be more info.

Wow. Sajin is quintessential "not paying attention" scum.

I vote we out plums partner before lynching milk.

This is officially the fastest slide from town read to scum read in the history of MS. Congrats.

I think there was a question raised about night action resolution, and that is very important to this RB/JKing situation. First thing to be noted is:

2.) Powers have various speeds and happen before others.

This is troublesome because it couldn't be more ambiguous. We have no clue if the mod is following standard role resolution or not. I would note, however, that if the mod is using Xyl's Natural Action Resolution, which might be a good idea considering the complexity of the setup, then hiding happens before jailing, in which case tubby is still scum trying to lynch someone he claims is innocent.

I swear I'm missing something. VP, help me ohh great spoon.

You covered the high points well enough. See about action resolution though. I don't think we would receive any clarification from the mod even if we asked, but I'm inclined to believe NAR is what would be used here. Schnoockums.

Oh, you did miss Elmo claiming double voter (finally), though that would have no impact upon your list. Chamber is the weatherman also I suppose. I feel like one of stark or Kise claimed as well...but I can't remember. I need to go through and make a list for myself.

Ok, now I see dram is saying he JK blocks everything that targets his target. Hmm. Dram, clarify for me again so we are 100% clear, the mod said that absolutely NO night actions would come before blocking or just that your target can't be targetted AFTER you block?

Likewise, if you had targetted Kise like you said you did, he'd be sane by now.

This piece of the puzzle is muddled in my mind and I'm not remembering something correctly. Did Kise claim to be insane or do we have any knowledge that he is insane?

Wait, so you have like a mason partner who is a roleblocker and, what, you choose between the two of you which one of your abilities you'll use? Since you had passive abilities that confirmed tubby as "town," wouldn't that make him another mason partner? Doesn't that sound an aweful lot like a scum team, not a mason partnership? Wouldn't you have had to have a result night one in order to confirm that tubby was the super-happy-hoppy-bunny?

ok, there's going off the deep end and then there is whatever the hell this is....

Oh my partner, if/when you're around use your judgment and claim who you are and that you can verify all my info if you think it best. I doubt it'll be necessary because it's only the lying Milk officially calling for it now and I'd rather not do thus on the demand of an almost-certain scumbag. If we have more official calls for this from people we've discussed that we trust more, I'd say go ahead. If not, it's probably in the best interest of the Town not to do so.

I don't want your partner to claim if that matters at all. That's a bad idea for investigative puroses.

One question I do want you to answer Plum, is do you think milkshake is an SK or a member of the scum team?

am a hider, i sent in my choice on who to hide behind. now if i managed to crawl in the buble with milk there by allowing me to live, or i missed due to milks bubleization nite 1 i have no idea,

look its not gaurenteed. all i know is if hide behind scum i am dead,

Then you would have to believe the latter! If you believe the former then you are trying to lynch town, which coincidentally is what the scum are trying to achieve.

but it makes sense if dram targeted milk nite 1 and no kill then all of a sudden nite 2 there is an extra kill noone else claimed responsibility its milks fault, plum confirmed blockage last nite

With myriad possibilities in this game, I'm not so easily swayed by that argument.

There are various other possibilities here (doc protect, jailed, missed NK, etc) that could explain this. Why haven't these been considered?

My point exactly.

One other thing. Dramonic, you're saying you jailed milk, and there was no mafia kill. My question to you - why didn't you jail him again to test your theory, and perhaps prevent another kill?

Doubt any scum is going to send the kill on consecutive nights from a blocked player.

Caught up again.

[VP Baltar]

Spy, my problem is that I don't want to out anything about my ability which is going to help the scum determine who they need to kill. Even something as simple as outting active or inactive gives a TON of information to scum on whether or not they should target me at night. If people think I am scum, then I could understand the need to test me, but I don't see any reason to just start outting role information. Maybe I have a role that is a major threat to the scum, maybe I don't, but in my opinion it is better to keep them guessing.

If you absolutely are set on it, then I'll give whether or not SC would have gotten an ability from me (ie active or not), but I am strongly stating my opposition to doing it simply because he is calling for it. His rolefishing is ridiculous and I don't see how any town player would be so set on outting as many roles as possible as early as possible. (his choices of targets don't make much sense to me thus far either).

[VP Baltar]

Double voter is not the same as a night ability. derp.

Now explain your reasoning for keeping it secret, i.e., what benefit does the town receive from you keeping doublevoting undercover when you were suspected for it?

[VP Baltar]

why were you suspicious of Rosso when you're outlined a good (the only, that I can see) reason for him to do that, and on the face of it you would seem to advocate acting similarly?

Hidden double vote is a threat to the town until I see evidence that the scum can manipulate the votecount also. Hidden night abilities are a threat to the scum because they can't strategize around them. As I said before, they are not the same thing.

I haven't kept it secret. The first time anyone asked me about it, I voted someone and I answered yes, I am a double voter. I don't know what Rosso was doing, but I suspect it was probably the reason that you've outlined.

I'd have to look back to verify this. I could have sworn it was brought up after you replaced in.

I still completely fail to see why I'd try and hide being a double voter as scum.

Are you kidding me! Hello pre-lylo win. You ought to be lynched just for saying that because I know you are a much better player than that.

Also, VP Baltar, is there any reason why SC might think you're scum based on blocking/taking your ability last night?

Nope.

I think chances are decent that dram blocking milk had something to do with the failed kill.

Unvote

for now though, since people are right that it doesn't mean that milk is definitely scum, as I felt when I first voted him.

I don't see how you can believe both of these at the same time.

I think people have trouble grasping the fact that WE ARE ALL POWER ROLES. All of this secrecy about your role is epically tired - the scum can only kill one person per day. You are not special. If you're a cop amongst 6 vanilla townies, claiming is a bad idea. If you're the colour green in a rainbow, you're just another frikken colour.

Look at the power roles claimed os far. Almost none of them are dead.

It's not nearly as simple as that. All powerroles are not created equal and most of the ones claimed already have been nothing of substance or serious threat to the scum in the near future. Keep pushing that rock scumbag.

btw, I am just going to spill my theory about the 'undead' thing since it is a serious concern to me. Basically, I am worried that Spyrex and I may now be chained to the death of SC in some way. Clearly being undead has some kind of effect and I don't see how it can be anything positive. I also really hate his choice of targets and my guess, if my theory is correct, is that he plans on taking out a whole bunch of protown players in one fell swoop to boost the scum team to victory. I know that's kind of crazy, but it has me very perturbed and if he is scum then he needs to die at the earliest possible juncture. Frankly, I don't believe a word coming out of his mouth that he doesn't know anything about the zombification. It would be some serious bastard-modding to have your ability have a secret effect on players that you have no clue about beforehand.

Unvote, Vote: SerialClergyman

You need to fess up about the zombie thing immediately.

[VP Baltar]

Why did you ignore the part about breadcrumbing my result?

Because I don't think it's a good idea to claim anything at this time, and probably won't be doing so until I'm either going to be lynched or its massclaim time. It should be obvious that I disagree with your tactical approach to this setup. I would appreciate if you don't claim any potential information about my role either.

re: the zombie thing- you saying "I wouldn't have claimed like I did if I was scum" means squat. We have no clue what the zombie thing does or what any strategy around that could be, so it very well may have been to your advantage to claim at that time.

One thing I don't remember, and you could perhaps enlighten me on, is if you even considered the zombie effect coming from you when it happened to Spyrex. If you did, can you direct me to the post (yes, I know I'm being a bit lazy here...sorry).

Your second point about trying to lynch Spyrex is a better point and I need to look back at how serious you were about it or if you were simply trying to get him to claim. How would you assess your willingness to lynch him yesterday prior to his claim? Strong, moderate, or weak?

Why not? I still think the dram block could mean something, but milk's not the guaranteed SK lynch I thought he was when I first voted him.

You said there is a "decent chance" that dram blocking milk stopped the kill, but you also believe that people are right he may not be the SK....how are those not two opposite positions to take? It looks like royal fence-sitting. So, let me ask you for the record, which do you believe MORE. Did dram's block prevent milk from killing or do you believe the theory is flawed? I don't want equivocating and describing how either could be true. I want you to tell me which you believe to be most likely.

I’ll get back to my opinions on PZs townhood later.

When? I really do want to know.

Baby, we don't have to fight.

Sometimes I wonder if you really love me...booo hoo hoo hooo hoo...ok, I'm over it.

Now, I dig where you are going but I think there IS a hidden caveat to this role (although I'm sure as hell paranoid NOW about you being right thank you very much). I am thinking it is much simpler though: you, like me, do not have an active role. Thus, our ghostification is a byproduct of the power not working that, so far, appears to not actually do anything.

Yeah, I mean, I'll be the first to admit it's a tinfoil theory and is pretty out there. It could be something else entirely and probably is. What gets me is SC claims to have no knowledge of the zombification or what it means. I don't believe that at all and since no one claimed anything that would interact with the zombie's, it makes me highly skeptical. It could be a MacGuffin by the mod, but if it has ANY sort of effect on players and SC doesn't know, then it's bastardization in the extreme (which ckd would not do, imo).

SC's reasons for targetting don't make sense to me at all either. Ambiguous meta reasons for me dont' sit well. I know he got me as scum in the /invitational game, but I think my play has been significantly better and different than that game. If he thinks I'm acting different from his town meta on me (which is only based on one game), then I want an actual explanation with examples of what he sees different.

His reasons for targetting Spyrex make even less sense because in no way does touching him "confirm" Spyrex as town, as he claims. All it does is confirm if he has an active ability or not...I don't see how he makes the leap in logic to that = confirmed town. Taking abilities from scum players is the only pro-town way to play the role he is claiming to have and he is clearly not doing that.

[VP Baltar]

I’ll get back to my opinions on PZs townhood later.

When? I really do want to know.

Why, whats the rush?

Why can't you just explain it? I would think if you have a town read on someone, you should at least be able to give me a few reasons off the top of your head why. There is no rush really, but it's something I want to know.

re:Kise's note theory-I think that is a bit of a stretch...though the death of Volkan isn't entirely lost on me.

[VP Baltar]

Spyrex, honeybear, there are so many people I want to lynch it's like trying to choose a bed to sleep in at the Playboy mansion.

If we want to get all old skool on this, then my top lynchees in terms of play this game would easily be:

1) Sajin
2) Vaya
3) Chamber (I think his role is confirmed, but he could be a basic mafia goon with mild confirmation ability)

If we are factoring in scummy and suspicious play in relation to claimed roles, then both Sociopath and SerialClergyman are in the mix for me. I don't believe that everyone who has claimed thus far is town. Until I hear a better explanation from SC for how he is playing his role thus far, I don't really want to move my vote (though I do recognize that we are stagnating and need to reach a decision soon).

On the other hand, we do need to deal with the SB situation, which I'm not thrilled about wasting a lynch on since she's probably town, but it needs to happen and I don't think the scum are going to do it for us now. The DGB investigation is convenient.

[VP Baltar]

Heh, I was actually going to compile these and point out who the majority clearly wants to lynch.

[VP Baltar]

It's business time

It is Wednesday afterall.

I'll probably just throw everything into an excel document and see who comes out on top.

[VP Baltar]

And then I'll compile the data.

[VP Baltar]

Pssst....(elmo)

[VP Baltar]

Spyrex, can you give me your clear 123 list because your post highlights plenty of scumbags and doesn't specify your preferences.

Everyone else, when you are posting your lists it would be very helpful if you designate your 1, 2, and 3 choices. If you fail to do that, I'm going to assume the order you wrote them in is your preference.

And yeah, nobody is truly cleared in the classic sense out of those people.

[VP Baltar]

And for note, I still need lists from: milkshake, Sajin, Vaya, Battle Mage, Spyrex, Serialclergyman, Snow_Bunny, chamber, Plum, Kise, Elmo, and stark.

[VP Baltar]

Need a third stark for complete data purposes.

[VP Baltar]

I would think the people with the crappier powers would be more likely to be the converters, don't you SP?

[VP Baltar]

Chamber, need your top 3 lynch list.

Also, explain how your ability can be passive when it is power based and you make a choice each night.

[VP Baltar]

@Sajin-who said I don't find stark scummy anymore? He's simply not at the top of my list at the moment. I don't see how you infer from my list that I'm not paying attention to him.

Also, you only named two people, stark and milkshake, as far as I can tell. If I'm your second, then please specify that.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, chamber, you're intentionally ignoring me now and I don't like it. Who are your top three scum suspects. I'm not even asking you for a frakking reason.

[VP Baltar]

I would really like to know why I'm in three people's scumlists.

@Sajin- Nice job man. Way to berate me for not scumhunting, then next day coast by, and only come back when your name comes up to crawl back into your tunnel.

I thought you were just stupid town, but now I'm reconsidering.

I agree with the part directed toward Sajin pretty heavily actually. Stark is still scummy in my eyes for playing around in the scenery, but Sajin has done absolutely nothing today in terms of scumhunting and simply deserves to die for it.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, chamber, you're intentionally ignoring me now and I don't like it. Who are your top three scum suspects. I'm not even asking you for a frakking reason.

tbh spyre demanding that we all post lists in the way he did pissed me off so I felt like being obstinate for a while but I've calmed down since, I'll get one together eventually. I'm confused atm cause all my reads based on play more or less contradict the cross clearing claims.

Ok, I can understand that, but surely you can think of three people you'd like to see lynched. I am at work now and can't really finish my compilation until I get home anyhow, but I hope you can post them by the time today is over.

@dramonic-well, yeah, yesterday too, but it is especially noticable today from how completely lost he seems to be.

[VP Baltar]

People who are yet to give their top three lynch choices: chamber, Elmo, Battle Mage, Kise.

Other than that, the data has been compiled and is ready to go. And I agree with Spyrex, chamber has no reason whatsoever NOT to give his list and his excuse making is very scummy.

[VP Baltar]

And yet, after all of this talk, no list from chamber. It's not that hard, and I'd hardly say I have been abrasive about it. I've asked quite nicely actually. The reason why this data collection in particular is important is that it will allow us to see the general mood of the town and then select from the scummiest looking targets OVERALL instead of everyone having their own personal preferences and talking past one another.

No way any town member should struggle, have to reread or get "tripped up" by a simple question like this. I don't care if you want to conform or not.

[VP Baltar]

- I am tunneling Stark because it is a good case. No one has attacked that case at all they have either ignored it or fled elsewhere. Stark himself has ignored my accusations. I find a good case and pound at it as I do in every game as town.

I don't see how you are "pounding" anything when you are essentially a non-entity in the game. Nor do I think you are doing any original work on a "stark case". Seems to me that you are moreso just riding a Day 1 accusation because you are over your head and haven't been keeping up.

VP, I can understand the huge list is made to take the town's pulse and all, but I hope you're not planning to direct the lynches with that. I mean, there are at the very least 2 factions who want the town dead, it's easily tampered with.

Yeah, I took that into consideration, believe me. I have been thinking about what would be the best way to present the data. I think a full list of who got what votes and the order of most to least lynchable according to general opinion might be too informative to the scum. Should I just present the top 5 options or something and we can pick from them?

BM, I need your third choice, please.

Still need suspects from Kise and Elmo...though I am willing to reveal data after BM posts his third for the sake of actually moving the game along.

[VP Baltar]

He didn't recommend that you be lynched. He wrote a note saying KMD would win the game > town if you were ever lynched. So it's protective in the sense that it attempts to scare everyone into NOT voting you. Why would KK go to these lengths for your benefit?

That's simply not true. Kmd was already dead when KK allegedly wrote the note. Therefore, he could not win if benmage was lynched. He was clearly trying to get benmage lynched if the note came from him. If KK wrote the note, then it is increasingly likely that benmage is prob town.

[VP Baltar]

I'm happy to post everything if that is what the general population wants. I personally think that the top five with my method should be sufficent while also not giving the scum a target list of those near the bottom who are least suspected. However, if the town as a whole wants the full list, I shall reveal it.

Final compilation will be tonight when I get home from work, so if people want to voice their opinions about what should be revealed, feel free to do it before then.

[VP Baltar]

SC claims to be the one who can steal roles.

[VP Baltar]

It would be really good if people hating on me could give a reason why, instead of just doing something simple like play normally and abuse the fact that double-voters are commonly seen as town, the mafia would decide to try and get a double-voter through
the entire game game without voting anyone at all or doing anything ever, despite the fact that the number of available votes are listed clearly in the vote count or the fact we started out with 29 players and it's clearly self-defeating. (Note that hiding the double vote for a short while is liable to make the mafia's life a little harder if they're not paying attention, albeit I wouldn't do it.) I think this argument is fairly silly, but I can't really have it floating around out there as-is.

I have played on a scum team that could manipulate the vote count and it was definitely a high priority to keep that secret as long as possible. It can be a very strong weapon. I do acknowledge, however, that it is difficult to keep a double vote secret when it is reflected in the vote count. What bothers me is that Rosso did in fact try to hide his double voting ability. I don't see a town reason for doing this. You have also been under the radar in a major way, though your last posts at least seem to be making an effort now.

Also, this "zombie" (maybe the word is misleading, but we know what we mean) thing needs to be sorted out post-haste. What the hell kind of town role does that? But, eh he claimed freely, right? Still weird.

I agree completely and I don't like it. Still waiting to hear a more indepth explanation of the reasoning on the targets, as what has been given so far doesn't add up in my mind as legitimate.

re: cliff notes- I recognize that there is a lot going on in this game and you may still be behind somewhat. If you'd like something summed up or explained, then ask. I would like you to be caught up and fully participating by the end of the day if possible.

[VP Baltar]

@Zito-did you check K-scope's postings elsewhere on the site before you made such a fuss about him being a lurker? Do you have past experience with him?


Since Cinnabon Spyrex wants the full list (and makes a reasonable enough point about all of the data being there anyhow), I guess I will go ahead and post the full list. The way I determined who was most and least lynchable was to sort everyone's name by the number of times he or she appeared as someone's number 1, 2, or 3, in that order. So, person with the most number 1 votes is first, but if there is a tie, then the tie is broken by the player out of those tied who has the most number 2s, and so on and so forth. I think this is a good method for gauging the town's overall mood because it shows overall suspicion, rather than who is getting the most votes at one time (ie, just number 1 position). Now, some may consider this partially flawed because a player wtih 5 number 2 positions would be ranked lower than a player with 1 number one position, but you can look at the numbers and we can discuss from there if someone deserves to be higher or lower.

So, here is the list in order from scummiest to least scummiest:

[mrow]Player[col]Gold[col]Silver[col]Bronzemilkshake[col] 4 [col]1[col]4dramonic[col] 4[col]1[col]0tubby216[col] 3[col]1[col]0stark[col]2[col]1[col]1Sajin[col]1[col] 4[col]2Snow_Bunny[col]1[col]3[col]0chamber[col]1[col]1[col]2benmage[col]1[col]1[col]1Papa Zito[col]1[col]0[col]1Sociopath[col]1[col]0[col]0Llamafluff[col]1[col]0[col]0Vaya[col]0[col]2[col]2Elmo[col]0[col]2[col]0VP Baltar[col]0[col]1[col]3Battle Mage[col]0[col]1[col]1Serialclergyman[col]0[col]0[col]1Spyrex[col]0[col]0[col]1Plum[col]0[col]0[col]1Kise[col]0[col]0[col] 0

Sorry it's not fancier and color coded, but I suck at tables.

[VP Baltar]

ITT we find out that spyre is Benmages dad.

Does that make me his future stepfather?

Why are the votes piling on Sajin? I agree he deserves to be lynched, but I don't think he should be prioritized...

^Sajin scumbuddy. Typical, 'yeah, we should lynch him...but let's do it later.'

Unvote, Vote: Sajin

Finally, some action in a good direction.

[VP Baltar]

One thing that is also interesting is how quiet Snow Bunny got today even though we did originally say we were going to lynch her following the investigation.

[VP Baltar]

@VP: Not really, I've been pro-Milk lynch the whole day, why would I change my mind when the built list shows a preference for him over Sajin?

Well, even though milk is near the top, I'm not seeing the wagon support for it. The wagon support IS there for Sajin. The point of the list wasn't that we should auto lynch whoever is on top. The point was to see who are the most suspicious folks and the town could then make a compromise and we can actually move the game forward with a lynch. The issue we were having (which is fairly common in large games) is a bunch of people arguing in different directions and not budging for the good of the town. So, either get on board or be prepared to be lynched when Sajin flips scum.

--Thanks, mod!

[VP Baltar]

Sajin, you are now claiming to be responsible for giving SB her one shot investigation? Also, what made you pick your targets?

benmage, if you got something then tell the truth about it. If you stand by not getting something, then let's get on with the Sajin lynching.

[VP Baltar]

Mod PMed me back- The giver is indeed a male.

The Giver should be a female.

More lynching Sajin.

Btw Sajibear, what are your thoughts on Serial?

[VP Baltar]

I'm behind a few pages since I had a migraine last night and didn't catch up in this game. Will try to do so this afternoon.

[VP Baltar]

As much as I truly, truly truly want to lynch Sajin, I feel like a grammar slip, especially in light of the mod's corrections, is too easy.

There's an easy way to prove this though.

SC, can you target Sajin tonight and see what happens?

I know, I know.

Believe me, I want a Sajin lynch. I do.

I'm just not confident in light of his claim

In the first quote, stark says he's unvoting him because of the grammar slip. In the second (two posts later) he says he's unvoting him because of his claim. Further more, and for hopefully the last time, SC's touching does not prove alignment. I don't know why people keep pushing this idea. It only proves ability. Also, Sajin didn't even claim to have an active ability....so touching him is pointless.

This whole bit by stark looks like he's bailing off the wagon because others are doing it. Stark, clarify which of these two reasons you are unvoting Sajin for and why that reason makes you want to unvote even though you "really really" want to lynch him.

Llama case on PZ is interesting. I'd like to hear PZ's assessment of his own play thus far in the game and an actual response to the case since he went into ignore mode on it. Do you think this is typical of your town play? How would you rate your level of scumhunting in this game, Zito?

Ok, regarding Sajin, there's something I don't understand from his claim about targeting me and my now-gone ability. Why didn't he say anything when I claimed that and Spyrex claimed that he gave me a potion?

This, exactly. I would have been on Spyrex like white on rice if I thought he was taking credit for my night action.

Apparantly VP is onto my cult and he's a member

Heh, damn straight.

Also, welcome back. Please explain now how you touching Spyrex makes him confirmed town, since that was your reasoning for doing it.

I implied that I had info that could help confirm or deny VP's alignment.

FFS, no. All you can do is confirm or deny ability, which is independent of alignment. Everyone has a power in this game. If you are town, you seriously need to rethink how you are playing this role. You're not a cop, you're a role thief. Target the scum and prevent them from using actions against the town. I repeat, that is the only pro-town way to play your role.

[VP Baltar]

FFS, no. All you can do is confirm or deny ability, which is independent of alignment.

[VP Baltar]

In most cases, you are wrong SC. I'll give you that I don't see curing insanity being a scum role. So, in the case of milkshake, touching town is good.

When it comes to touching blindly, you are wrong. Live it. Love it.

[VP Baltar]

I'm a snotty bitch. you should know this by now. But just as I admit that in milk's case it would work towards alignment (though it isn't actually "confirmed" in the traditional sense), you ought to be big enough to admit that in the case of Spyrex it doesn't "confirm" him as town even if you had received the potion throwing ability.

[VP Baltar]

I still think Sajin is a good lynch today. His night actions are a bit too convenient and benmage even said nothing happened to him last night even though he was targeted.

Plus, look at Sajin's iso. He starts the game off actually trying, which is easier to do as scum when nobody knows anything, but then as the days go on he gently drifts into the background and cheers on from the sidelines. It's not even consistent with what he says his own play is (ie say nothing until under pressure). Early on he was saying plenty. D2 forward, not so much.

This, exactly. I

would have been

will be on Spyrex like white on rice

if I thought he was taking credit for my night action

because he's so handsome and dashing.

Where's my chopsticks!!!!! nomnomnomnomnom

[VP Baltar]

OH HAI Tubby. Good to see you are still alive. I was getting worried.

[VP Baltar]

We're not massclaiming, especially on Day 3 of a large game. Especially considering the folks recommending it.

[VP Baltar]

Ah wha!

Ok,

Unvote, Vote:dramonic

[VP Baltar]

care to come clean dram? Want to make changes to your claim?

[VP Baltar]

Also, you're probably fine claiming now PZ because I'm sure there is some sort of protection variant out there who will target you tonight. Let the scum go ahead and waste their kill attempt on you.

[VP Baltar]

boogey woogey woogey woooo


*Eats all of Spyrex's many splendored hats*

[VP Baltar]

We really arent responsible for the giver's death. Heck, my PM really says I'm anti-violence :S

I really DO believe Milk is the strangler. investigate him or rolename him or touch him, but dont leave the villain alive!

Less chat, more outting your buddies. GOGOGO

[VP Baltar]

tubby, why would you question the cop's sanity yesterday?

[VP Baltar]

@tubby-yeah, you're correct. I didn't remember that correctly, just that you seemed to be questioning the validity of the cop claim. So, why were you asking him for breadcrumbs? Did you not believe PZ at that time?

[VP Baltar]

I threw a Red Potion over to VP.

Ah, so that was you. For the record, red potions aren't a good thing. I'll reveal in massclaim. (ZOMG he agreed to it!)

VP Baltar was the last one to be targetted by SC right? Presumably the SC kill implicates him, and confirms previous targets as innocent.

Yeah, I can see lots of reasons for the scum to kill SC, not the least of which would be to make milkshake or myself look bad. I pretty much feel milkshake is confirmed town at this point after that kill.

[VP Baltar]

What the hell do you mean Spyrex can't vote?

Snow Bunny, what's your stance on mass claim?

[VP Baltar]

I don't think it is, but let's find out.

Vote: tubby

[VP Baltar]

I don't think it is, but let's find out.

Vote: tubby

um vp i already claimed remember so how does voting me support a massclaim?

No, it supports your death. While you're answering Vaya's question you can also get to mine about why you wanted to know about breadcrumbs from PZ.

[VP Baltar]

oh ok nvm i gott it now

Feel free to get to those questions scumbag.