Newbie 835: Game Over

[YamiJoey]

/Confirm

We start now?

Vote: Super Mario xP

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Why with all the random votes? I don't understand.

I'll just get myself if I do random.org. =(

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I don't understand that. You even say that it's a random vote for god sakes. That's like me posting. "[Spam]LOL[/spam]", it's pointless.

The opening to Mafia games are always the hardest, I feel. That's why I like to make lots of seperate Mason groups in my Mafia games. It gives people stuff to work off straight away, and affects people's posts. When people just random-vote, I tend to not get involved.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

So you're saying that if you random-vote me I'm going to react to it? That's ridiculous. If that worked then so would "Are you Mafia?" to every player.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I totally just posted. I want my proper computer back. ¬_¬

I have to agree that Webz does look a tad scummy for being almost

too

pro-Town, but TBH Double A's point is just the same, only it's using a method I don't like. You're almost saying he's Mafia, just because it's possible.

FoS: Webz
FoS: Double A

Kirbyoshi: Yes. I mean - DAMNIT! xD

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I understand what the article is saying, (and thus; you) but there is the idea behind it. Trying to force themselves into being seen as Town rather than letting people simply assume it. Which is bad Mafia behaviour, if you ask me.

I understand that by keeping my position on this I'm looking scummy, but lets face it; this post can only reinforce anyone's suspicions unless I had other evidence as to why Webz would be Scum, which I don't as it is about the only thing that has happened so far.

I did also argue against my own point in that post, so it's clear that I did understand I had a flawed argument, but a pair of FoS' that had

]some

basis was better than random.org, isn't it?

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP: I know this also makes me look scummy, but I doubt that Double A (Semi-Experienced) would make a similar mistake, so I'll take him off of that list. I'd rather be wrong at the moment, as it's all I've seen to go off, but at the end of the day I have no proof.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I honestly can't find what the hell I was talking about when I FoS'd Double A. I've just gone back to reference the post and I just don't see what I was talking about. I may have thought that post 39 was made by Double A and just made a mistake. That combined with the "Speak to my buddies" and no mension of Masons in the set-up made me suspicious of him and clouded my judgment when going through posts by him. (Or at least; I thought were by him.)

I've just caught myself doing the same thing again then, which is what made me reconsider what I was going to write in this post. (I read something you posted, and simply to create something to post, thought about picking up on it, even though I know why you said it.)

Unless that is a good action in order to try and gain some information. Should I ask a question, knowing what the answer

should

be?

YJ

[YamiJoey]

" Not going to vote purely on meta, but I will FoS: YamiJoey. "

Did see a reason behind this; so I'll ask why.

Webz: I did try to create something on page two, but to no avail. The 180 turn was not for no reason, it was because I made a mistake on who posted what and post 39 was not suspicious on it's own (By Devotress?) so I no longer had any evidence.

Also; drats at no search function. It makes Mafia so easy.

To the above question:

Whilst I feel that Kirbyoshi has been fairly aggressive, I don't feel him to be directly scummy. The deflection on top of that does seem a little off.

I'd like to take it upon myself to

FOS: orangepenguin

. Multiple people have made the "Random" vote, yet OP has decided to pick out Double A (almost bandwaggoning in that respect) and create a focus on Kirbyoshi, who, as far as I can tell, was already under a little suspicion from players. Granted, he could actually be scum, but I feel this post was a little too easy for a Mafia player to make. The use of 'Advice' which ended up being 'There is no advice' threw me a little, too. OP basically said "You find scum simply by looking at the thread and finding scum."

If I had a Cop role, I'd be flipping a coin between Kirbyoshi and orangepenguin right now.

Also; just read post 62 by Kirbyoshi: I think that what HP was trying to get across, was that some questions needed to be answered by the suspected people only. Anyone else answering would allow the question to be avoided.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Webz's second-to-last post:

"Why were you so quick to discard your two cases?"

Because I was only really probing when I FoS'd, and my second FoS was unfounded anyway.

"And why did they lack any substantial evidence?"

Misreading on my part, and because there's simply no evidence against the people I suggested. However, I am happy to see that people are still responding to these original accusitions, as it is giving a lot of insight into people's thought track. (Unless you're all doing what I'm doing and keeping a fair wack of it to yourself, just in case.)

"Also, why go against the IC when he is the third voter on the single case back then where evidence is present? There is a weak tell that the third voter is likely to be scum, but he was making a vote that hammered home the idea not to just attack people randomly, which seems to me like what a town IC would do. Also, as I stated before, his explanation was completely valid. Please either say whether you still have the case against him or not."

The reason I FoS'd op was because of the very little input made by them, and the fact that he picked up on two people who I don't see as having much different from the rest of the Town at that point. There was very little that caused them to really stand out as Scum, so I got suspicious of this behaviour.

I'd also like to put to you, that the

best

Mafia strategy, is to make accusitions that make sense. Even if they're also other Scum. Although, in a game with two Mafia, that might not be true, so this might need to be ignored. However, op could easily get away with staying in the game for a while, simply because newer players would be inclined to keep experienced players in the game to help them out.

I will always retain suspicion of players who have that "Experienced" flag next to their name. If new players are scum, they'll make mistakes here and there. If experienced players are scum, they'll make mistakes and then won't do it again.

Also; I prefered "OP: You seem like a busy OP" xD

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Bandwaggoning is too obvious. He FoS'd to keep the suspicion up on a player up for the chop, and he would be able to simply go "Well, he seemed scummy enough to me" and push the vote over enough anyway, whilst at the same time bringing another player to light who may or may not be scum in order to divert from this tactic.

Basically:

"Vote: Double A" was done in order to look like he was trying to off a scum.
"FoS: Kirbyoshi" was done so that they would seem suspicious to more players and get more discussion.

I have a feeling that op, AA or Kirbyoshi contains one of out two Scum. I know that I'll probably get a link to some article saying this is a stupid thing to say, as you could pick any few random players and have a good chance of being right, but this is half the amount that it'd be necessary to have that sort of list, so it

does

help.

I want AA, Kirbyoshi or op to disprove me here, as it will help out in the long run. Hell; if all three can then, whilst I'll have no idea who

is

Mafia, I'll know four people who aren't, meaning that I could easily gain information on other players.

Just done this, so I feel like doing it again on this game:

Kirbyoshi: - Under suspicion from everyone; so I'd mainly watch out for people trying to really push votes on him.

Webz: - Acting like a very good Townie and discussing points quite nicely, but I feel focusing a little too much on Kirbyoshi. If Kirbyoshi is Mafia, fair do's, well done, but Kirbyoshi could be distracting from the two actual Mafia simply by being unlucky towards the beginning of the thread by people becoming suspicious early.

Humble Poirot: - Got on with the game very early (which I like) and really drilled into Kirbyoshi, which could be the main reason he's under suspicion now. Mostly got pissed after his probing got owned by someone who he wasn't trying to investigate. (Which pisses me off a lot, TBH.)

Devotress: - Starting to give a bit of information, but I don't like the vote against Kirbyoshi. Seems a little forced. (As if she feels like she has to simply because she has suspicions and others have done so.)

Double A: - I no longer feel suspicious of AA after my mishap. I went over at the time to try and gain some information as to why I FoS'd and realise I was wrong. I would be very happy to take AA's views as the truth in what he thinks. (Basically; I think he's a Townie.)

fallen angel (SE) / yabbaguy (SE): - Not seen anything from these two here. If they had a chance to pre-game discuss, they may very well've decided to be inactive in order to hide Mafia status.

orangepenguin (IC): - Until I hear something from op, I'm unsure I want to let my FoS slide on them. Someone who doesn't defend themselves because other people do when there is nothing much to go on seems more and more scummy every time they ignore it.

Also; if "piss" is considered an offensive word on here, I'll use it less. Just LMK.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP:

1) I'll make that look nicer next time I do it. [/Hates the fact he didn't bold ANYTHING.]
2) FA and yabbaguy have posted confirmation posts, parting yabba's "Will post soon" post. Do

not

like that. Would request a Prod on FA if he doesn't post by the end of tomorrow.

Also just like to check:

a. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Cop, 1 Doctor, and 5 vanilla townies
b. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, and 7 vanilla townies
c. 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Cop, and 6 vanilla townies
d. 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, and 6 vanilla townies

We've not had confirmation it's any one of these yet, have we? Just want to find out if we

know

there's a Cop or Doc in the game. Don't care much for the role-blocker; it's the inclusion of the Cop that I'm mainly concerned with.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Oh, thanks. Mint. xD

I wasn't asking for anyone to claim (but if Mafia want to, I don't mind that xP) but I was just wondering if I'd missed it being stated. Neh mind.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

OK; I've just read op's reply to my post, so my previous statement of "It stands until he replies" can be ignored; so my first port of call is to address this:

I think I understand what you're saying. You're argument is that Double A and Kirbyoshi only posted that it was a 'Random' vote because other players had posted random votes before them? That is plausable, but I just don't see it. Kirbyoshi has been a tad suspicious, yes, but this is about the only evidence on Double A. If you'd've voted Kirbyoshi and FoS'd Double A, it'd've made more sense to me, but you didn't, which is what made me notice it. Obviously there's the argument that V: KY and FOS: AA would make it look like bandwaggoning, but sometimes a vote must be cast for someone who has multiple votes if that is the way you see it.

The fact you did it this way around makes me think you were ensuring you would definitely NOT look like Scum. For someone who's supposed to be good at the game and playing around people who are supposed to be - erm - less good at the game, this seems like an odd move.

Now in rpely to Kirbyoshi:

The third comment in your post was a little unfair. The reaction to "other people's comments" is where you'd find the scumminess in your arguments, but I don't like how you have dropped your suspicions, simply because it is making people suspicious of you. The game is about winning, not surviving.

I was giving my opinion on everyone in that post. Picking yourself out was a defensive menouvre(sp?) which I understand, but as for the "half-hearted" comment; I feel the above has made my point clearer. It wasn't that you were being bandwaggoned and that op didn't follow (that would be a scummy play), it was the fact that he FoS'd you and then specifically voted for someone else. Just seems like a good diversion tactic, ready for the possibility of another Mafia coming into play and continuing the bandwaggon. (Which hasn't happened, but it is still possible.)

I don't understand why the vote on me. It seems you're voting me for being aggressive, when you yourself are being just as aggressive. Note that I have not voted anyone yet, leaving the play open for longer. (Less likely for any majority to be met.)

I realise that I am claiming "I AM TOWNIE!" a lot here, and I've pulled people on that in the past, (correctly or incorrectly, but I do it a lot) but it's about the only way to reinforce what I'm saying.

Devotress asked for your suspicion.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

IMO that is scum trying to cover for lurking. xP

[This is a joke. I simply have no more games to post on.]

YJ

[YamiJoey]

RE: Cop directing; I was merely giving my opinion. If the Cop wants to take it on board they can. I'm simply trying to help. I hate being in a position where I have an ability and no idea who to use it on, either too many or not enough targets. If they were in that position, then it would be helpful, if they already have their own ideas or if they see someone pop-up then they should obviously follow their own leads, as there's no reason I have to be followed. I could be wrong, or deliberately trying to mislead the Cop if I were Scum. If they were thinking "Kirbyoshi or AA" and looked at my post (Kirbyoshi or op) they could they think "Well Kirbyoshi is wanted as a scan, so I'll do that" or "Kirbyoshi is being watched more closely, so I'll scan AA to get it out of the way.". Both are legitimate plays, and my post could help. If they were thinking "I'll scan Webz" and then looked at my post, they may think "Well; I'll add them to the list and see what happens throughout the day" or "Well he has no idea what he's talking about" and scan Webz anyway.

I'd also like to point out that I simply took Kirbyoshi's word in previous posts. Double A was the player getting bandwaggoned in that case. (it put the votes at 3-0 for AA) After this it went to 2-2 (as it currently stands) between AA and Kirbyoshi. This does affect certain things from back then, but it's all been resolved anyway.

What it does tell me, is that Kirbyoshi is a little too - edgey? (Though I think that's stuck in my head from a previous post.) Why be so worried about getting bandwaggoned when there were no votes on him? That's not suspicious, it's just confusing.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP:

"@YJ-49: I think everyone here wants to look town. Why would scum approach it from a different perspective, such as trying to force the issue?"

Because they're under pressure to look Town. Everyone else can simply post what they feel, but Scum have to check, re-check and re-think every post they make. They have to ensure they're not revealing anything that isn't already known (often done by quoting and simply replying to quotes) and ensure they're not agreeing with their Mafia chum too much.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I don't think scum wants to make too solid a case against their scumbuddies, especially in such a small game.

OK; that is a good point. I simply thought "Mafia Vs Mafia is good Mafia play" and didn't really think "Even if it gets them killed."

But to be fair; throwing a fellow Mafia under the bus with evidence all from the thread could easily pay off in the long run. Start the case on the first day, but just give suspicion, then it's No Lynch or mislynch, (say no lynch to make it more Town bias) [6-2] possibly get a mislynch the second day [4-2] then they know they'll get no mislynch so they throw their partner under the bus to avoid suspicion. [3-1] and then Town lynches someone associated with them and loses [1-1].

No not at all. You are completely over analyzing my posts.

Just have to say; isn't that the point? Good scum will drop very few hints.

@HP:

On most forums I'm on, it doesn't let you post after about four or five quotes, so I've gotten used to not using them when I'm quoting loads of stuff, and I was expecting to quote most of the points. I did just type "Because they're not relevant to me" but that is a flaw, is it not? I realise that I should be analysing posts about other people in order to catch scum, but it's difficult. (Pretend that's a joke. I don't like admitting I'm not very good at this game.)

Also, tiny little scumtells: Devotress saying she'll random vote because that's what the "cool kids" are doing. This seems like you're hiding under the cover of the first two random votes as to not look suspicious. However, no biggie.

This was my point from before about op. I don't understand what made him take that view when other members (including Devotress) had done the same thing. I just didn't understand why they got picked out, so decided that it was just as, if not more scummy, than the original 'Random voting' thing. I then obviously FoS'd Kirby for the random vote, because it is scummy.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP: Expand that final point:

What did Devotress do that AA or Kirbyoshi didn't? What makes it OK for op to call those two out, but not Devotress? What makes you pick this point out now?

They're both asking for information reasons, and asking to help me over other games. ('Mafia Theory', I suppose you could call it.)

YJ

[YamiJoey]

No, you're not quite getting it. I noted some tiny scumtells that generally hadn't been noted. op was as guilty as devotress for following trends, but devotress followed a more anti-town trend (actually random voting, rather than supporting a case.) I was just trying to pick up on things that hadn't been noted before.

Almost a 'lesser of two evils' approach? (Well; the other way around.)

Also, what makes it NOT okay for op to call kirby and AA scummy for random votes, when it is okay for me and HP

The timing of your votes. It is just as scummy, I'm not saying that you should vote in a certain order or anything, it's just that the way op did it made me notice it more. If I were paying more attention, I'd've seen that you'd both put votes down on these people and made that connection; but I didn't and I feel that's due to inexperience. I think I'm right in assuming that I've come under suspicion on this game a fair bit because I'm not making connections, and that is causing people to assume I am trying to single people out. You've stated this yourself;

They both

[Kirbyoshi and YamiJoey]

suffer from an overwhelming lack of proof in their cases. Please guys, fix this up.

I don't think this is the actual quote I was looking for, but it is to the same effect. I have noticed this, and I am attempting to make myself more aware of what's going on in the game and post in a less laxidazical manner. In the same post;

Because, despite the fact that he

[Kirbyoshi]

has a weakness (which I also see in YJ), he is the one who has acted as though he didn't and was, IMO, trying to punch above his weight

Kirbyoshi: I'm giving reasoning as to why I would think what I think. This was people might stop suspecting me, and start listening to what I'm saying. As I've said; I could be wrong, but if I don't follow up the small suspicions I have and just hope someone comes out and says "I AM MAFIA!" and everyone else misses it and I have to pick up on that; we'll get no-where. I'm just trying to pressure people into a situation where I can find the truth. OP's lower post habbit makes that difficult, but it is definitely working/has worked on you, and alongside that other people have become more involved because of how you responded.

1) I'm defending myself too much here, and not getting enough analysis done.
2) Can we get off of the RVS discussion. It's over now.
3) What input did AA's most recent posts give? As far as I can tell it boils down to "I'm not that bad at this game"/"I've played before.", Unvoting and FoSing me, advertising a few sites, and making excuses for anything he might've done wrong. I am always suspicious of "I am tired."/"Don't feel too good" posts; as they're just what I'd expect for a Mafia member to say so that if someone catches them out they could possibly come back with "I did say I was tired. Sorry." I try to stray away from this, but when someone starts raving about how they 'are no newbie' as well, it makes me think they're not all that great at the game they're playing.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Perfect scum would drop no hints. Everyone makes mistakes; you've just got to make sure you spot them.

I'm going to do a full post-by-post analysis later on. (Once GMail stops giving me a janky message about not being able to edit stuff.) Until then I'll be AFK. Either eight-hours time or sixteen-hours time, depending if I go straight to bed after I've gone out. (Which I doubt I will do.)

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I've never understood the "WIFOM" thing being scummy. Is it simply because it can confuse the Town?

I think AA was refering to the first unread post in the thread for that user. That'd be the little piece of paper with the arrow pointing to it when you're on the page before this. (Where you can see all the topics.)

About your last point: I understand, but that is a flaw of my own which I'll have to work on.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Oh I see. I thought that WIFOM was a different thing.

I just didn't see anything coming from it at all, and it was just an argument about whether or not we should randomly vote. I didn't see it helping the game and it was annoying.

If you'd like to, I urge you to go through all my posts during that stage so you can see for yourself I wasn't trying to cover anything up, which is what I think you're implying.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I didn't honestly see anyone being called out for it after the discussion about me suspecting op was over, sorry about that.

Sorry for being hard to read? o.O

I'll include a run-down of Devotress' posts when I get back online. (Alongside the analysis I already said I was going to do.)

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Never thought of checking the listed sites to gain some info on AA's playstyle. I honestly didn't feel it was worth it, given that they can talk outside of the thread and how I've played Mafia a fair few times on another site, and the only help it's given me so far is that I can go "FOS: [Name]", "EBWOP:" and "Vote: [Name]" and know what I mean.

AA-28: Jokey post. Deflection tactic.

AA-30: Wants a shorter day, which is better for Sccum.

Webz-31: The "Semi-Random" comment is suspicious.

KY-33: Random vote is scummy.

DT-35: Random vote is scummy.

HP-42: The first substantial post. I get a very Townie vibe from this post in general, but the fact he voted for AA after he had a vote is something small to note.

DT-43: I don't like the reason behind the unvote. Unlikely that three players (even if both our Mafia weren't among them) would jump on someone. If they did; we'd have a pretty substantial list of who to get voting off. Could also have been misdirection and DT [i[knew[/i] that HP only had one vote, but hid behind this reasoning.

AA-54: Massive diversion here. I hated that.

KY-55: No reason given behind the FoS of me.

KY-56: Tried to stop someone having to post. (Not scummy, but definitely anti-Town.)

HP-57: A certainly rude nature in the answer, even if the answer itself was fine. Don't know what to get off this; other than an emotional tie to the game.

KY-58: Rhetorical questions made in order to bait out a negative response. Again, whilst not scummy, the reply can only be taken as Scum, even if they are Townie. I don't like that one bit, as it is forcing the Town to believe that someone is Scum either way.

op-59: Already commented on the voting/FoSing, but the inclusion of "RVS is not pointless" could be misleading the Town. I'm unsure as to whether the IC would do that, even as Scum, simply due to the fact that they're supposed to have a sort of tutoring role. Depends how much these people are supposed to teach.

KY-62: Deflective, but the line "It's not working" seems a little off. Why

should

it work if KY is Townie?

HP-68: Another post from HP I feel is very pro-Town, specifically the last paragraph. It probes KY, who is under suspicion. I like.

KY-70: Again, the last paragraph is standing out to me. I don't know what KY was trying to do, but it was an extremely aggressive post towards HP, which I feel is intended to alienate HP from other players and as such make him seem more scummy. At this point in the thread, HP looks more Townie every post, and so I feel this is a scum play that is a last resort.

Webz-71: I disagree that Mafia wouldn't vote for scum-buddies in the RVS, partially from what this post contains. If whoever scum votes for in the RVS gets auto-cleared, it'd be the best thing to do. After this post however; it's now a bad thing and we get stuck in a loop, but you get what I mean.

DT-72: I'm having trouble understanding where this post is going. It's almost as if she posted the joke and thought "Well I have to put something now". It is a fairly pro-Town post, but a little pointless which is what makes it more confusing.

Webz-73: I already refered to this previously, so don't think I'm skimming over the FoS on me.

DT-76: Pro-Town play in trying to get players active and trying to create more direct discussion, but the "Claim who you feel is most scummy" can often be of benefit to Mafia. Agrees that HP is not scummy and points out deflective behaviour in KY.

Webz-78: Vote switch was fair-do's, but I would like to know how far up or down your list AA is after this.

op-80: Extremely thin post after not a lot of activity, which is scummy IMO. I'm not going to push this, as I don't feel half as scummy as others, but I may come back to this.

Webz-81: I feel some of the points put forward were unfounded. 'Never self vote. This gives me bad vibes.' Made me wearey of this post. It was almost as if Webz was trying to ensure a lynch on KY, even if I so feel KY is suspicious, this is a little too forceful. Also; KY pointed out that the IC could be Mafia, and Webz shot him down. It is a perfectly viable point, which shouldn't be overlooked at all.

At this point there's 50 posts left and it's 2AM. This isn't an excuse for anything I might've said; this is so that I have a clear head when analysing. (I've sat here staring at the screen for about ten minutes totally gormless. No condition to post properly.) I'll continue from Post 82 when I'm in a better condition.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Continuing from my previous post.

DT-86: Don't understand the vote here. Seems forced, as I've said before.

AA-106: I don't understand the FoS there. It seems like he's doing it because Webz has done and doesn't want to look like he isn't following the Town. There's no reason given.

107-110 were addressed previously.

AA-121: The fact that AA has tried to act like a newbie yet also claims that he is experienced is off. Here, he admits this. If it wasn't L-1 at this point, I'd be pretty quick to vote him here, but I'm unsure if it's worth making the killing vote over.

Webz-133: My "clearing kirb" did not exist. I simply said that Kirbyoshi could very well still be Townie. Something I'd do as Mafia is to try and force a vote through on someone who is already suspicious. Your votes get embedded with the rest of the Town, and it becomes everyone's mistake, not just yours.

You say that I am confusing the Town by going one-way then the other, then say I should post everything I think. I'm keeping things to myself, because pointing everything out means that scum can rectify theirr mistakes. If they don't realise they're making them, there's nothing they can do. A little unlikely, but seeing as the Cop is the only person (if they exist) who can actually go ahead and confirm someone I feel that these are the kinds of things that need to be done. You'll have to excuse me for this way of thinking, as I am used to everyone having some kind of power-role which they can abuse. Posting everything you know is something that only Ghosts can do leitimately. (Immune to night hit.)

YG-136: Who's this FoS of?

Will have to continue from 137 when I get back.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I didn't mean "Newbie to mafiascum", I meant that you are trying to use that fact in order to gain advantage. No-one needs to do that unless they are Scum. I don't particularly want to get someone killed off this early before the deadline, but if anyone wants to stop it I'm sure they'll unvote.

Vote: Double A

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I did not know that. As far as I was aware the day is not called until the Mod dictated it.

I understand that it might be scummy to place the final vote, but someone has to die in the end. There is a good enough case against him and I feel that he is deserving of the lynch.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP: Also; I know Mafia theory, and am not acting like a n00b. I'm new to not having any powers, so having to get information purely on posts is proving difficult to me.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I really don't want to have to do this, YJ. But we don't have much choice.

Oh, and today, please don't hammer until a week before the deadline, unless it is pretty much universally accepted that we want them to go down and we want them to go down right at that second. Which is unlikely. And don't hammer at all without a very good reason.

ie. Unless it's YamiJoey? Yeah; I get that.

There's pretty much no defense here. What I'm being put up for is there for everyone to see, and was a mistake on my part.

Anyway; here's what I have to say about a few people:

Fallen Angel:

Been inactive and it was left late until the deadline was closed. Could be a sign.

Kirbyoshi:

The most scummy of anyone on the thread. If my oppinion still counted; there'd be questions going to him.

Webz:

Fairly Townie. Close to being straight up confirmed.

My three pence.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP: That first comment was intended in jest. I'm just a bit pissed at how this day is going to go. I've tried my best to make accusitions and stuff, and by killing off the wrong person I've condemned myself. I just hope that the Doc gets the right person tonight, because if not I'll get LVP for sure. If they do; I might just be in with a chance of not doing.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Yeah; I got that post in the Night and realised that today was going to be painful after it.

I know that this won't prove me as a Townie; but if I were Mafia; I'd've hit Webz last night. I know that people will just say "Yeah; but if you're Mafia you're not going to tell us the truth in anything", but w/e.

On Kirbyoshi; the only person I actually think is Mafia on here right now:

He starts in the scummy way of 'random voting' for a player who voted for him.

He FoS' me for no reason. (He did explain later, but at the time there was none.)

Exagerating on how many votes he had. I think this might've been a way to make people calm down on him in case there was an "accidental lynch" sort of situation, where people were so blinded by wanting to lynch someone; they made the evidence fit themselves. (Don't know myself if this is Townie/Scummy, but it raises questions for sure.)

The fact that he 'called me out' on 'helping Mafia'. IMO giving out what Mafia would/should be doing helps the Town more than Mafia. Mafia can night-talk, so they can keep things a secret.

I know I'm under suspicion; so anything that I say about him pushing me as scum won't seem like a scum thing, but he was pushing it all through yesterday. It was like he was looking for someone (Webs, HP, then me) to exploit and then when he got to me it was successful. He also took back his 'Threat to vote HP' and made sure it was known. Even before HP was killed that was hella-scummy to me.

HP being killed does make it a little obvious, but it could very well be a double bluff on Kirbyoshi's part. He does seem like he knows what he's talking about, even just a tad.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

yesterDay

Am I missing some terminology here? Just want to know if this doesn't mean "yesterday" and is a common term that I've not come accross.

It's possible Kirby posted the wrong little symbol, or possible he missunderstood where the vote was at, but I can't shake the feeling that he was trying to trick someone into hammering.

Beat me to it. When I read Webz' post and he pointed that out I was a little shocked. However; no-one else seemed to realise (including me), so it is very possibly a mistake. (Unless I am the only one who didn't realise that the majority had dropped; in which case forget I said anything, because that's quite numb.)

And yeah; Kirbyoshi is

actually

at L-2.

If I were scum, I would jump on the bandwagon at some point, to lynch a townie

Jumping on the bandwaggon isn't the Scum thing to do. The place you start after a Townie has been lynched is by looking at the FoS, HoS and Votes for that player since the game started. The more you push a Townie over the edge; the more suspicious you look.

It's all your wine, Kirby, if you catch my drift.

ilold. What you stated was perfectly logical, and I don't understand what Kirbyoshi is trying to insinuate.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Bollocks to you Webz, why can't you stick to one line posts? lol

If I remember correctly, and if the thread doesn't lie, I didn't push AA anywhere.

Which is my point. You didn't do it as a way to avoid suspicion, a point pointed out by Webz. As far as that WIFOM goes; I see what you mean. When you said "WIFOM" I simply assumed you meant his accusition against you (which confused me), but you're the one who said it, so you basically just made a claim against yourself.

Yes, I claimed vanilla.

Just started reading 182 and I'm called away.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

^^^

That. I'm not going to simply claim role early. I did that in my first Mafia game and it ended up just becoming crap and everyone claiming. (Eventually it got into a Screen-shot battle, and we put the role "no quotes/SS from private thing")

YJ

[YamiJoey]

You would say that now that someone's called you out on it.

I was replying to that post (that Kirby quoted) and wanted to argue against it, but couldn't think why. It reminds me of the "Hitler built Autobahns" thing I read, but I don't think it's quite the same. Either way; it doesn't seem like a proper argument. Combine that with the fact that Webz

should

have died, and I'm not liking where it's going. I mean, yes Poirot was pretty much considered confirmed Townie by everyone, but Webz is deinitely directing the Town where to go more than anyone else. I'd get rid of players actively trying to kill Mafia before players who simply aren't considered Mafia. It provides longevity.

This became suspicious after a recent game I was in finished and someone else was in the same position. He claimed that he wasn't being killed because people were asking "Why aren't you dead yet.". I suppose one night isn't enough to go on, but it just got to me. Possibly because I've just read about the similar situation.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I've just checked that game and it's not actually over yet. That player is still alive, and I simply assumed it was the end of the game. (The game has lasted a hell of a lot longer than most of our mini-games, which is a good sign, really.)

It seems an awful lot like you're going back to your Too Townie argument.

Not true. I'm simply trying to establish why you're not dead, and I do understand your point about not wanting to simply miss the Night Hit because Mafia were greedy, but I will stress to the rest of the Town that this should not be overlooked, and I hope you can understand that. As a new Mafia player, I'd be trying to ensure my own survival rather than play for a good late game (That's what I did on my first game, probably second, too.)

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Who do people think is the most scummy at the moment?
I think YamiJoey, because his hammer was so scummy.

Also, I'm uncomfortable with kirby having more votes than him. Just to not misrepresent the town's feelings on the issue, because he is under the spotlight more than kirb, and they both are much more than anyone else (I'm not saying that this is a good thing. It's probably bad.)

vote:YamiJoey

Does that not put me at L-1? I don't like being this uncomfortable. o.O

I don't get your last part. I assume you mean "mafia" as in scum, rather than the game. Because if you're talking about the game, I don't care about my own survival. I care about a town victory. If you mean scum, you're saying the payoff for "acting" very townie is not having a good mafia lategame, right? Why? I don't get it.

Yes; I meant when I was playing Scum. (I'll say Scum from now on.) I try to play for my own Team as much as possible, and have come out in the open and given tells that seemed accidental in order to save other players. In one game I had a one-time Cop effect that I got lucky on. I claimed it and killed the Mafia, then claimed I was going to scan a certain person on the next turn. I died and it was revealed it was once per game. I took a hit as a vanilla Townie after killing a Mafia player so that other, more important players, wouldn't get killed. (That is about the only straight-up good play I've ever made in Mafia games.)

But in a hypothetical situation, if you were mafia, would you have nightkilled me? Why?

Because I feel you're more of a threat to Scum. HP seemed very Townie, but I didn't see him hitting out at many people. Kirbyoshi was about the only person put under suspicion from him, and that was Kirby's own doing. You have been making a lot of analytical posts and calling people out on many things. You seemed like you'd be the one to find out Scum more often than HP. The way I'd see it, is that I could kill HP this turn (or another equally Townie player, depending on how today goes) and Scum would get away with directing the Town more. It'd be a lot harder to make more false claims with you around, pushing Scum into more of a hole.

If you were mafia, YJ, then you could have set this up. It seems that you might be both the mafia that set this up, and the townie that's pulling it off.

I assume you mean "You planned it as Scum, and on the thread you're doing it." in a way of "Instead of getting your Scum-buddy to deflect for you."? That's a valid point, I can't deny that, but as a Townie I have to call things as I see them. If I just let it lie, died and then you turned out to be Mafia, I'd be left posting "I knew that. ¬_¬" and everyone'd be saying "STFU n00b!" or w/e. If I see something that could be a scum plan, I'll call it out, just as you're calling people up on their posts.

It just seems much too easy to do, and it draws attention from yourself as the main suspect right at the moment.

And this is probably just going to make you want to scream "MOAR DEFLECTION!" but I'll say it anyway; everyone is voting for me because I hammered. I'll just reitterate what I've already said; I didn't know about that rule. When I play, we keep going until the day itself is called. People can end up with a unanimous vote, but the day might not end. Everyone then unvotes for that player and attacks someone else, they survive the day. (That's not happened, but people have survived after getting to a majority because other people unvote.)

I've read the rule (first one, I think) and when I read it at first, I simply didn't understand it properly. I read it as "When I say the person is dead; they are dead." I didn't read it as "When they have enough votes they are just about dead."

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I'm saying there's evidence that he is scum, I'm not saying that this alone proves it. I'm throwing things out there to be considered.

I thought I was already on two-votes, sorry.

Also; who's confusing NK and lynch? If it was me, then it was either a mistake, or you misunderstand what I'm saying.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

@Webz-181: I mean, thing is, we weren't expecting a dumb hammer. L-1, in my experience, is usually pushed up to just to get a claim out of someone, and Yami decided to intervene and take this the wrong way. Or maybe, again, he was naive. I'll have to keep looking at him to see which it was.

If this is in regards to my "Am I now at L-1?" post, then I'll explain further:

If I am L-1, the Mafia could hammer me. They then go 3-2 for the next turn. Turn after it'll (probably) be 2-1. (I'm obviously ignoring Doc roles, because that's impossible.) I think that cutting it that fine is asking to lose the game.

@YamiJoey: You're playing a lot of defense. Why haven't you voted yet?

My vote would be on Kirby, but in case I'm wrong I don't want to allow the Mafia the above position. If Kirby

is

Townie, I do doubt any Mafia player would make that play, as Kirby is about the only player I see as all that Scummy here, so I think it'd be a better plan for them to just carry on as normal and only kill someone off towards the end rather than hammer, but I'd rather not give them the option. For this case:

HoS: Kirbyoshi

As stated, that would be a vote under other circumstances.

Also; 'ello Princess. (I couldn't help myself. xD)

YJ

[YamiJoey]

The "impossible" comment was about knowing whether or not a Doc would be successful, as that's based on luck and skill more than anything else.

The fact you're not dead isn't playing massively on my mind, but it's worth keeping an eye on you over. I'd quote but it's too late to go searching the thread, but I did say something like "It is only the first night, though". It's not a big thing, but seeing as I'm probably a dead man, I want to make sure that the Town knows what I thought.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

What does this mean? I don't think it's just an accident, seeing as your other capitalizations haven't been random.

Caps were added for emphasis. TownIE doesn't always mean town, although I'm not adopting a "Too Townie" argument, because that's just bogus.

And I'm not even going to repsond to the rest of the post, as I can tell it was done in sarcasm.

OK, am I the only one who thinks that this is the "Too Townie" argument I got slammed for before, only said in a different way?

I've also seen a lot of people taking what is said on face value unless it directly contradicts what they or someone else is saying. Not everything is true.

Seeing as we've gone from me and Kirby being under suspicion to me, Kirby, Webz and PP, I'd like to take a new approach; who do you think is most trustworthy? (ie. Most Townie.) As a side-noe: where the hell did the FoS on Yabbaguy come from?

This is bad logic. You're suggesting that him looking for scum pairs makes him scummy, but how is this? What benefit do scum have by claiming two people are a scum pair, compared to just normal false scum hunting on individuals?

Whilst I don't have an answer to the question, it is advantagous to look for Scum pairs as Scum, as it is another form of scum-hunting you're bringing to the table, which can only be seen as pro-Town. (Can't it?)

Why do you feel the need to post the same thing twice? Am I right? sometimes scum may try a little harder to look more town, is this what you are doing?

Just like to point out that Webz didn't do so. He pointed out that "Too Townie" was not a legitimate strategy, and then pointed out you were using that strategy. That's a scummy diversion tactic to simply deflect a suspicion like that, ergo I

FoS: Purple Princess

Can I get a vote count, please?

YJ

[YamiJoey]

And @ YJ: I see Yabba as the most trustworthy. I see Devotress as the most townie.

And what do you think is the difference?

Another question; If PP

is

Scum (I don't know, god told you she was), what would you be looking for in her partner? I was thinking about this before, and looking at Devotress' point, I seem to have been beaten to spotting something. Kirby doesn't aknowlage(Sp?) FA/PP much, which could be a way of stopping people making the connection via searching, but is there no other way of trying to stop any connection being made? (Such as when Mafia FoS each other to avoid conflict, as I was saying before.)

This brings me shockingly close to FoSing Webz again, and he's done a lot of Scumhunting recently, and it was he (I think, could be Yabba please correct me if I'm wrong) who even pointed out PP's scuminess in the first place and put her under mass suspicion. Whilst FoSing Mafia is a good strategy, getting one lynched from no-where doesn't seem like the best play.

I just don't beleive that scum would make such a reckless move, surley the object of there game is to stay alive to win.

To an extent, yes, but if there's a Townie lynch, Mafia could well throw their buddy under the bus tomorrow in order to survive that one extra night. IMO they won't do this tomorrow, only today if ever. ("if ever" meaning it's unlikely they'll do it today.) My point is; it's not just about surviving, even as Scum. Surviving one extra turn and then revealing your Scum buddy is bad. (that's more than obvious in this game, but true throughout Mafia.)

Finally:

1) What age are you? 19
2) What is your favourite subject at school/where do you work? I'm an Apprentice Electrician
3) What is your favourite band? The Dillinger Escape Plan
4) What is your favourite TV show? Doctor Who

I just wanted to play along. (Well; I saw the question "What is your favourite band?" and couldn't help but enforce that Dillinger are the best band ever.)

YJ

[YamiJoey]

@Webz: Yeah I read that and thought I deleted the first part of the post. Sorry.

And I both was and wasn't the first to suspect PP of being scum. I was the first to point out the scumtells, but I didn't FoS her then, because I wasn't sure of her being town or scum. Yabba then FoSed her, and when the "scumpair" thing was pointed out, and Kirby posted some weird posts, I FoSed both PP and Kirby. So, in short, you're both wrong and right. But you're wrong that I was the one who put "mass suspicion" on her (which is ironic as no-one has a vote on her.) The tell that has had people on her case was her treatment of Kirb, which Yabba pointed out.

"I was the first to point out her scumtells" - That's what I'm refering to. Not FoSing/Voting first is the best policy for Scum, as that's what people look for first, then they look at who bandwaggoned etc. Regarding the last section "which Yabba pointed out." I agree that Yabba was the first to point out her treatment of Kirbyoshi, but you were still the one who put PP in the spotlight, which is my point.

Also, I'd be careful about that FoS. It's an "If PP is scum, and her scumbuddy wanted to distance themselves after that post, and Webz was the one doing that, then he's scum!!!!! DIE SUM!!!!11!!!." Sorry, but this is very, very dodgy grounding.

Is that in reply to "I'm dangerously close to FoSing Webz" comment? If so: that is not what I was saying, but along the same lines. I was stating that there is a possibility that you and PP are both scum. PP is much more scummy, but you seem to have altered your behaviour slightly since her arrival. That is a Scum-tell in my eyes, though not something I'll FoS over, as it's nothing too major and it could play out to our advantage and be a genuinely pro-Town play.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Yeah; but Webz didn't take both sides of an argument. He pointed out what he did and attempted to justify it. Taking both sides of the argument would be:

Yes I was the first to suspect PP, but that is not Scummy because [evidence], however I could see how that is scummy [evidence].

You have accused Webz of something he didn't do. That is called false information, and it is not the first time you have tried to misinform us.

HoS: Kirbyoshi

- Though it doesn't need stating, and I stress again that I would vote Kirby if it wasn't L-2, so don't say "Then do something about it.".

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP: You are also diregarding that I am now only on one vote (yours) and you are on two. Misdirection, another form of misinformation.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

The reason that I have "changed" might be because I actually think that PP probably is scum, rather than the scummiest. It might be because I started playing another mafia game. It might be because I read quite a few games and found out that I wasn't quite doing it right. It's not conscious.

That is a massively convincing argument, as I have done the same recently.

quote="Webz"]Also, if I was you, with that "dangerously close to FoSing you" comment, I would have said "If PP flips scum, then Webz looks scummy" because that makes more sense. The base of that almost-FoS was PP being scum, afterall. Sorry for being a bit sarcastic before. I should stop. [/quote]

Yeah, but if PP flips scum, you're my prime reason for her getting lynched, and I don't see that as a viable plan.

Will post on other things later. I have to leave again.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I am going to back Webz up on this, as I have recently been looking over more Mafia games and articles, and it does affect how you play when you weren't doing it right in the first place.

@Kirbyoshi: I said that I had one vote (from you) and that you had two votes. I never said you voted twice.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Because you attempted to draw attention away from people voting for you and suspicion upon you by misleading people in the vote count. You made it seem like I was the only person who was close to being lynched. Whilst I may be under mass suspicion, the vote count is all that matters when it comes to people being lycnhed, and you attempted to cloud people's view of it.

I did also lol at your dig at me there. (Not in a "I laughed at you" in a "That's quite funny" way.) Someone fix my previous post. I missed an open squared-bracket out and it looks aweful.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

278-Kirby: I don't want to have to keep explaining myself. You attempted to draw attention and suspicion AWAY from yourself. Also; I always get "Awful" and "Awesome" mixed up with which has the 'e' after 'w'.

258-Webz: I have seen scummy things from you, but if someone starts trying to accuse someone of being scummy in a way that they simply haven't been, I'll back them up, as I don't want false information causing other people to follow onto my suspicion.

So under suspicion at the moment is everyone except op and Yabba? Classic.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Apart from my earlier probing of Webz, am I right in assuming that since PP turned up Devotress and Webz have both come under speculation as a general concensus of the Town? That doesn't sit right with me. I was thinking last night (after I had to leave the computer) that we now only have two people we really trust; OP, and Yabba. Before PP joined in the fun, we were down to me and Kirby looking the most scummy, and Webz was considered one of our most pro-Town players.

That scares me a hell of a lot, and I think that a definite Scum Tactic would be to throw the mix around if we were focusing on people and one was Scum. I know that incriminates myself, but I'm going to do the only thing I can, and stress the point that maybe Kirby and PP

are

a Scumpair.

Vote: Purple Princess

And if it comes necessary, I will switch to Kirby, as he has always been my main suspicion, and PP

could

just be trying to make sure we're not focusing on the wrong people too much. Her line of thought (as Town) could be "What if they're both Townie?" and trying to get things right.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

However, more than PP's suspicions, which I see as valid, I don't like it AT ALL how Kirby is starting to blend in with the background. He hasn't posted real content for a long time, and it's been 20+ posts since he even posted. With him being the one under main suspicion, I see this as scummy. If he weren't at L-2, I'd most probably vote.

Pretty adament I've said this myself, but it's what I was thinking, and seeing as we're on the same side of this argument; how exactly do you find someone's allignment in this situation? On the one hand it's a simple "He's not talking, he has something to hide, he's Scum." but there's also the fact that some people are simply

that

bad at Mafia games, they can't defend themselves as Townies, nor Scumhunt. Keeping in mind that this is Kirby's second Mafia game on here, he could very well be in that boat.

Also; is that basically WIFOM? Because if it is and that's "You're not making a decision.", then I'd like to reinforce my previous statement:

HoS: Kirbyoshi

- Though it doesn't need stating, and I stress again that I would vote Kirby if it wasn't L-2, so don't say "Then do something about it.".

So I see him as extremely scummy, I am simply trying to extract more from the situation. (If he can now come out and somehow prove or convince me/us he's Townie, then that's great, as it's one more name in the possibly confirmed pile, to go with our mountain of two people.)

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP:

OP has a vote on me, so I'm not sure if you're completely right there.

Ah, didn't notice that. Though PP had a vote on you, but they switched. To help me and others out - unofficial vote-count. (As I don't see Thock online.)

Kirbyoshi (2): (yabbaguy, Devotress)
YamiJoey (1): (Kirbyoshi)
Webz (1): (orangepenguin)
Devotress (1): (purple princess)
purple princess (1): (YamiJoey)
yabbaguy (0):
orangepenguin (0):

Not Voting (1): (Webz)

4 needed to Lynch.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Overall, the aggression and waffling stand out to me as reccuring scumtells.

Sure they do, sorry if you don't like my playstyle, but that is just the way it is I'm affraid.

Your playstyle is to act scummy? That's a bad playstyle, as you either force the Town to jump on you and mislynch, or you get lynched as Scum. Either way, your team loses out.

It's not a good thing, well not a very town thing to do anyway.

You said it's a nice thing to see, yet you think it's anti-town?

I agree with this. How in the world can you

want

someone to act scummy and post that on the thread? Sure you can want someone to act scummy to cover yourself (as scum) and get them lynched instead, but what exactly drives someone to go out and admit that? It'd either be as scumbuddies and trying to keep suspicion off of Kirby by saying it's good, getting called out and then changing your statement, or it'd be excessively bad play, which PP has admitted to in my quote above. However, I'm going to go ahead and throw in a few of the more ridiculous scumtells like misinformation, and say actually scummy. Scumtells such as:

Of course there is, the attention has been drawn away from you, and with agreeing with everyone else people will find other things to vote on in time.

You do realise that people are keeping their vote on Kirby and consistantly reinforcing their point against him, don't you? -

Misinformation

- Just needed to highlight that one, as PP just moved way up on how scummy I think she is. (Though I'd []i]still[/i] feel safer outing Kirby.)

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP:

2) Not true at all. You are now off the main scum list of me and YJ, and you are not necessarily the most likely to be lynched now. The pressure is, obviously, still there, but not as much.

My posts 303, 301, and previous post all show my suspicion towards Kirby. I

still

have Kirby down as the most scummy in the game right now. Just making sure no-one thinks that I've changed because of Webz's post. (Slight misinformation, but I've been accidently inactive for half-the-week.)

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I think that Princess is most scummy at the moment. The confessing to scumtells is one thing, the lack of defence is another, but arrogantly saying that she's not going to stop being scummy is really,

really bad for the town

.

OK; can we go ahead and read into this properly. "Bad for the Town", not "Means that she is definitely Mafia.". We can't afford to go ahead and lynch someone who has the possibility of being Town. If we're wrong, we will lose the game.

Unvote PP

Simply because even if someone comes out and does hammer, and PP does turn out to be town, and we lynch and they are scum, we're still in an extremely bad position. This is the same reason I wouldn't vote Kirby, and I would much rather hit Kirby than PP. It still feels the safer bet.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I am slightly suspicious of Webz at the moment. I would like him to please post his thoughts on posts since his last one (341) before I can actually continue to do anything, though.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

I don't understand or like the fact that Kirby has gotten away from this, as I still think he's been more scummy than PP. However; I'm not usually right about finding Scum, so it's probably best that I don't have a deciding vote or anything in this situation.

@PP-370: I know that wasn't directed at me; but I'd put Yabba down as one of my main Townies. (ie. I believe he is Townie like, 100%)

I'd also just like to point out that my previous 'Unvote' was because I didn't realise how close to the deadline we'd gotten. It seemed to skip from those first few days to this deadline rapidly for me, so that may have caused some confusion, but if I'd've made myself more aware of where the deadline was, I'd've probably just let my vote stand and we'd be in almost the exact same position now anyway.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

From the above, this is who I think you think is Scum in order:

Yabbaguy: Kirby (from recent exploits), then Devo (more as "there's no-one else it could be", then me (earlier play, might also be before Devo), then Webz (not scummy).

Devotress: Kirby (recent exploits plus your view on Kirby's will to hammer), then me (earlier), then Webz/Yabba (not scummy).

Kirbyoshi: Devo (toDay), Webz (I'm unsure, but you said it), me (earlier), Yabba (not Scummy).

Webz has yet to post, but if we simply remove the two lost players I think that Webz would have: Kirby, me, Devo, then Yabba, but I can't quite pinpoint a recent post where he describes anough people.

Personally I think Kirby is the most Scummy, and I have Webz and Yabba as pro-Town, which leaves me in the same position as Yabba and have to take a starting position of Kirby + Devotress. (Which is a lot of post trawling now.)

I think that Devotress' reaction to Kirby's accusition was a little scummy due to how aggitated she got, but Kirby's reaction to that was exactly the same. Usually, the two least-Town people acting Scummy would be a bit of a godsend, but the fact that it's when they're talking to each other bugs me. I don't see Scum arguing on the thread. Debating so as to avoid people going "They agree all the time. Scumpair." but never arguing in that way.

Not exactly. The town thing to do would be to prove you are town, instead of saying "Oh, that's just WIFOM," and dismiss it as a nulltell. How could you NOT be scum from the NK?

I

hate

that question with a passion. Why direct that question at Devotress, and why does it

only

apply to Devotress. I don't see Devotress having much to do with orangepenguin throughout this thread, so why should she be victim to this question?

As it got closer to the deadline, I thought "Know what? Screw it, she's gonna be lynched anyway." Hence, I waited.

Why ask the question, though? It is incredibly scummy. IMO if you have a question that seems scummy in some way, you should leave it until after the game and ask for advice about it in the summary. It might even get brought up by someone else saying "Kirby should probably've hammered then..." and you could say "Well I was unsure, so I didn't." which is the smart thing. This way you draw attention to yourself, which is bad as Town, as you cause confusion for the rest of the Town and force them to suspect you, and bad as scum as it causes you to get lynched and your team starts losing a flawless victory. (Mortal Kombat style.)

Personally, I'm unsure what the deaths tell me. orangepenguin was fairly absent, and I even had suspicion on him at one point, but not for any specific reason, and all of the remaining players were suspicious of PP; which means the best place to look is the waggon, IMO. Doing that I get a Towntell from Kirby.

As I'm going back through to look at the thread I kept seeing posts from PP, not realising they're from her and thinking "lolScum - Oh, wait. o.O", so I stopped looking for votes and things on PP because it'll tell me rock all. She was a Town acting Scum, which has killed a day and two Townies.

Want Webz to post now.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Part 2: Because of what you asked. You asked "Would it be OK for me to make sure this person dies and that if anyone gets a brainwave - it's too late?". You should note down that you need to know what to do in future, and ask at the end of the game. For the time being, if you don't know then just leave it.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Ok, I will drop it, and I suggest you do the same. If anything, it proves I'm town, because I didn't want to make an anti-town hammer.

Did you know PP was Town?

YJ

[YamiJoey]

He's been under fire since D1 (might've been D2), and the arguments have been fairly strong against him.

IMO Scum are lolling right now. We've not lynched anyone who we've really wanted to lynch. Double A got lynched through me being thick, then we were going for me, and stuff got thrown around, then PP came out of no-where and we lynched her. - No real point to this, just wanted to point out how badly things had gone and how well Scum have done in order to cause confusion and disrupt us.

I am unsure about a massclaim. If everyone else is fine with it, then I suppose I'll have to, and I can see the pro's, but it's never gone well when people have just started claiming and I've been involved in the game. Either I've made the game and claiming has gotten people killed (obv. not here) or people have claimed and we've always ended up lynching Town as liars and got it totally wrong. We've not always lost, but it's rarely helped; so I'm just a little cautious.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP: Scerw it; there's more pro's than there are cons. IMO Cop should claim, but not Doc. Doc isn't all than necessary, and Cop could even have scanned the Doc and know who it is.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP: Sorry for the triple post, but I just had a brainwave; would my above post mean it's better for the Doc to come forward first? IMO it would be.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

In what way do you mean that? Would you rather wait?

A new player could be helpful, but if Webz is/was Town, then we could end up having another PP situation.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

FFS I'm sorry for D1. ¬_¬ lol

Whilst I don't agree with Y's name, I do agree with their/your point about my already claiming and so deciding the next person.

What exactly do you mean by an in-thread dice roll, though.

I didn't think about the 'Silent Hammer' idea. Looking back, Kirby then unvoted me and HoS'd PP, before Devo switched to PP to push the lynch through.

So I'm simply going to assume we maybe lynch Yabba and are right in this next paragraph. (I'm not at home, and I don't now simply assume Yabba is scum, I simply don't have time to check Y's claim on this so I'm giving my oppinion.)

Kirby didn't play this silent hammer role, but HoS'd PP. This means that he could either have the same ideas as you, and realise the idea behind not getting someone lynched as Town, or he could be attempting to force someone else to push the lynch through as Scum. Devotress then came along and did that, which, after what you've said, could be seen as

very

scummy indeed. I'd also like to point out that Yabba "confirm-voted" PP, and I feel that was in order to push a vote to complete the lynch.

In this situation, I think that Devotress comes out more scummy, but I am trying to use logic and not include the fact I'm already pretty adamant(sp?) that Kirby

is

Scum, and I think a Kirby/Devo scum-team sound just plain correct. I've also recently (here comes the 6for6 thing) become quite good at seeking Town. I've been through about four games whilst playing this one, and I've been getting better and better at creating lists of people I think are Town and being right. This makes me even more warey to put anything onto Yabba, as he has been so pro-Town and on my pro-Town list the entire game. (The only person to remain there.)

Of course; this is all assuming that there is a proper case against Yabbaguy, and I'll be checking that as soon as I can.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

This is the add-on to my previous post. If I get ninja'd then I'll EBWOP after this. I'd also like to quickly ask:

[quote=Y]The other option to mass-claim is deciding an order based on who is the scummiest and going on from there.[/quote]

What order would you personally choose for that, obviously excluding yourself for now.

He stalled for quite some time, and also made a fair few "Pro-Towns":

Double A: He claimed "I don't think you're scum, but I think you're misguided."
Humble Poirot: Claimed he was "very likely town", and he was.
Webz: Claims he was Pro-Town,

He also suspected Kirbyoshi fairly early, and then decided not to jump me on day 2, but instead go for Kirbyoshi. He was also fairly needy to get PP lynched.

One thing I have just noticed is 373 and around that. I don't understand exactly what happened there. Yabba seemed to try to make something happen, possibly make Kirbyoshi seem more scummy than he already did/does, or to do the exact opposite and get Kirby to defend himself against something quite well so people will see it and go "Maybe he's not Scum after all". I'd like someone else's view on what happened there, as my logic isn't anywhere near what is needed to work out what went on.

I'd just like to clarify that I still want a Kirby lynch, as he's been scummy since the beginning, and we've not found a single Scum yet, so it'd be nice to be right, but we've got loads of time, and I'm sure that if Kirby

is

Scum, he'll slip up today and I'll think about it at that point. Someone will slip-up, it's just what happens.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Until you decide to claim roleblocker, I think you're Town. xD

Back to our point, anyway. Are we claiming yet?

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Vote Diceroll

YJ

[YamiJoey]

"I do understand. I believe Newbie games are there to be learned from. While reading this game, I noticed how many times people followed one another just because they trusted one another. That's dangerous."

Get into my other game now and talk some sense into the Town. Someone went "X is Scum. I'm 100%" and EVERYONE jumped them. Straight away. We're about two days into it and we're o our second day, someone else's gone "X is Scum" and it's a big jumpfest again. I'm hating it TBH. lolAanyway:

Y: Can I have some evidence presented against Yabbaguy from you, please? I don't understand the full reason you're labeling him as Scum. I've seen a couple of things that I am suspicious of, but nothing to sway me over Kirby. I suspect you (from previous posts by Webz) and Devotress more than I suspect Yabbaguy.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Oshi- I got sigged! xD

I'd like to know why you feel there's no role-blocker, and for that reason, I would like to propose that you roleclaim first when we do start claiming, as I've had a feeling about Webz for a while, and you seem to be following a similar pattern, albeit(Sp?) in a slightly different way. Your methods of posting and attacking seem to be full of what has happened, but not much else. Very little actual analysing, except when you have attempted to show Yabbaguy as Scum. There may be the argument that you actually just found Yabbaguy scummy and no-one else seemed to fall into a Scummy catagory, but I find the former more legitimate.

I'd just like to say that we're having a PP all over again. A townie comes in and accuses someone we feel is Town of being Scum. They argue for a bit, we lynch the new player and we're wrong. I don't want that to happen this time, so:

FoS: Yabbaguy

FoS: Y

One of these two players

is

Scum, and depending on what happens during claiming, I'm pretty sure we'll find out.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

The reason I asked, was because I think I know exactly what you're getting at, as I have seen it too, but you have to remember that until everyone claims to be vanilla, your idea isn't totally safe, and even then it might be wrong. The reason being that PR's have the option about lying if they're a PR. Obviously this late in the game, that'd be an odd strategy, but one which that PR (as Cop) might wish to take. If the Cop feels we can sufficiently axe a Scum this turn, they may very well not claim in order to get the scan in so we will definitely win tomorrow. It's a risky play, but one I feel that the Cop could legitimately take this action.

I'd also like to say that your assumtion there is no roleblocker makes me think there's a 50% chance of there being a roleblocker, and I'm not saying that because that's what there is at the start of the game.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP: Actually, that last part doesn't make sense. Ignore it.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOTP: The reason I ask you to ignore it is because I'm just plain wrong. If Y's saying what I think Y's saying, then he's probably right.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

The Cop could possibly just have one Town on their list. They may've scanned op (ie. PP), but I didn't see anyone defending her as if they were Cop, so you may have a point. I honestly see too few people being defended well for me to assume that there is a Cop at all.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Vote and Hammer: Dice Roll

HAH! I hammered without consulting!

-1 Wouldn't recoment to a friend. xD

Devo's method seems fair enough.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

If there is a player called "Diceroll", they deserved to be lynched. xD

How come you've called Kirby out on that, but not me? I did the same thing before.

I'd also like to ask what our new method is. Kirby is gone for now, so where do we go from here? If we're following a list, we should all give (in order of a list) how scummy we think other people are, give points and then make a final list.

Kirbyoshi - 4
Y - 3
Devotress - 2
Yabbaguy - 1

Whoever has the most points after all four of us have made our list goes first, then second, third, fourth and last. If anyone would like to simply vaulenteer to go first, then I'd be open to that, but I'd still like a system for the other four players.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

@Yami-460: Missed your question in-post. I don't see what you're referencing though, when did you change your mind like Kirby? Do you think it's more or less the same scenario?

Post 418 and my post after. (421)

"Tengaged"? Never heard of it. Anyways, I don't like the "Points System". It creates a list which isn't accepted by all.

It was basically your suggestion. This is the only true way to determine who we think, as a concensus, who is the most Scummy.

You did, but I don't really mind looking scummy as long as it helps me finding real scum.

That's not good. It's anti-Town, as it clouds other people's judgment.

If they fault me for these mislynches, I can understand, I was one of the most vocal for them. All I need right now is to make sure everyone still continues to believe that I have the our town's interest in mind even if I screwed up trying to carry it out.

Bold is mine for emphasis. You need to make sure people believe you have the town's interest in mind. Make people believe. I know you probably didn't mean to sound like you're trying to do scum's work, so I'll advice you to be more careful when you speak.

I saw that and totally agree.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

If we were at deadline right now, I'd still say Kirby is the better lynch choice, and then work out whose scum tomorrow. Ofcourse, we're not at deadline yet..

That's the worst wording used in any game ever IMO. I don't know if i find that just funny or a horrible Scum-slip.

I feel like looking for evidence in phrasing and stuff like that seems like a bad idea. This is wifom, but I think a scum would overlook that post Yabba just made and think "oh geez I have to change that". A townie is more likely to say something like that, becuase they're less concerned about accidentally making themselves out to be scum.

But that makes a lot of sense, as does the point abour Yabba and Y both being Town. (Which implicates Kirby and Devotress if she's right, and obviously to Kirby it's me and Devo, and to Devo it's me and Kirby.)

Either way it's not a confirmation, and I have one last thing to say:

1: Devotress
2: Kirbyoshi
3: Y
4: Yabbaguy
5: YamiJoey

[diceroll]1d5[/diceroll]

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Anti-win. I'll do that again.

Original Roll String: 1d5

1 5-Sided Dice: (3) = 3

YJ

[YamiJoey]

lol You vaulenteered.(sp?) xD

YJ

[YamiJoey]

As previous. Just Y left. (Cop?)

YJ

[YamiJoey]

@Yami-473: Explain that wording slip. I'm missing it.

She basically said "Lynch Kirby; we'll find Scum tomorrow.", and whilst I know what she meant, I found it quite amusing. It was just badly worded. (That or an EPIC scumslip, but i don't believe that.) This has already been explained, but it's about the only thing I can reply to.

Honestly; I have nothing to add to the thread, I'm mostly posting so that I don't get prodded.

So we've got all Vanillas -Kirby so far? I could see that coming, TBH.

Also I'd like to once again put forward that I think Kirby is scummy, and Devo has made a great case as to why, and it contains most of my own argument against Kirby. The reason I haven't referenced it in this post and analysed it, is because I agree. I'd also like to put forward that whilst Yabba no longer looks as clean and shiny as he did not so long ago, he is still the most pro-Town player I can see. My order still goes Kirby, Y/Devo, (simply because I can't decide which of you is more scummy/pro-Town) and then Yabba.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

What restrictions?

"Terms and conditions apply"?

However; ending on a joke

is

a scummy tactic. We had a conversation about how it isn't a scumtell, but scum do like to end on a joke so as to lighten the mood of the post, meaning people are subconsciously less likely to pick up on scumtells. That's probably in the Wiki somewhere, so if someone can find it, LMK.

I'm liking Y's active playstyle, and I find him quite a but less scummy than Webz.

IMO that's creeping. (Getting close to a Townie in order to seem more Town.) (BTW the reason that I say "Townie" not "Other player" is because as Scum, Kirby would know that Y is Town, that's what I'm basing it off.)

There is way too much WIFOM in Kirby's post, IMO. It's the sound of a Scum in a corner to me.

Y: Why are you so sure there's a Doc?

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Y's Doc?

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP: I say this because I Y assumes that any Cop in this game would've been more obvious about it, and probably hit Scum by now, purely from luck if anything.

Y's assumption is based off of the fact that he is Doc, and a Cop wouldn't stay so undercover this long. (If it were me, I'd've rollclaimed D2 under pressure, if it were Kirby he'd've done the same on D2 in Y's logic.)

That's my theory, anyway. Mostly posting so I can go "See. I'm awesome." if I'm right. xD

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Yes, but I actually had no input to the thread, as I previously stated. I'm posting to continue discussion and to avoid being inactive.

You finished on a joke again after trying to give input to draw attention away from serious subjects. You have also gone "Scumtell but I'm not saying it"

again

. The problem here, is that you're giving the same scumtells over and over again, even after other players are pointing them out.

Y's comment that fakeclaiming as a PR would be a bad move and then doing that same thing could be a way to fish out Scum. The temptation to claim Doc this late in the game would be huge IMO. It'd practically make you immune to the lynch, so long as there was no counter-claim.

I'm still sure that Y is Doc, TBH.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

If Scum don't bandwaggon that vote, Y or Kirby is Scum, possibly both. Straight up.

I'm pretty adament that other Town'd've thought of that, if you didn't, the above is true. In every way.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

Flawless Victory!

1) Not trying to rub it in that we won, I've just been playing a lot of Mortal Kombat recently.
2) I know it's a Fatality not a Flawless Victory video, but I couldn't find one short enough.
3) Any posts referencing me should read "He played terribly and got away with it.".

My D1 Hammer was genuinely a mistake. I didn't realize that the day would end, and me and Devo decided I was dead D2 anyway. When people (I think it was Yabba who was the first) decided not to lynch me, I just jumped straight on the defensive and tried to stay alive. I pushed my "Kirby is Scummy" plan and just tried to make it look like I was trying to find Scum, but mostly trying to get Kirby lynched.

I was tempted to claim Doc at the end there, but the way Y was acting and Webz's earlier play somehow made me think he was Doc, and after looking over the Doctor page I decided it could be see as a little too obvious. I also forgot that there'd have to be a Doc with me being role blocker, and I was pretty sure there was no Cop. (I think I said this when we were claiming.)

I think Devo played really well. If I were a Townie in this game, I'd've simply assumed she was a Townie who wasn't very good at picking up on Scum, and I think I'd've overlooked her in most of my arguments. I think that if I'd've been lynched yesterday (D3) then Devo could very well've been connected with me, as we tended to agree quite a lot. I was trying to distance at times, but with her arguments against Kirby, I had to agree or else it'd just've been obvious.

Devo's post 514 is almost everything we had between us, but we also killed OP because we decided that two fresh faces coming in was too many for us to handle as Scum. A replacement coming in would be more critical of posts from previous days (as Y was regarding Yabba), so we tried to minimize the chance of any new players catching us out.

Overall:

Devotress: Made no big mistakes, but if either of us got lynched we'd've lead straight to the other from our terrible attempts to act like we weren't partnered, and my constant concurring with her.

Humble Poirot: Played as a Townie and people knew it. I was personally scared of you from the start, because I knew that if it came down to you, two Town and both us Scum, we'd've been in a very bad position.

Kirbyoshi: I think you suffered from the same thing that I've seen a few times. You're attempts at scumhunting have put you in the firing line a little too much, and you ended up playing it out badly for the rest of the Town, but if you could've made better defenses, I think you might very well've caused some serious problems for us.

PP/Y: You won us the game. The fact that you both came into the thread and started stirring things up helped us out a lot. With PP it caused people to become suspicious and move the suspicion from me and allow for some small shots to be made. With Y it meant that there were more people under fire. If Webz would've stayed, I think that it would've come down to people deciding between Kirby, me and Devotress for who to out yesterday, as no-one was really pressing Yabba anywhere, but when you came in you allowed more suspicion to be thrown aroud, which helped us out. PP got lynched for doing what you did, which is a little ironic, as you're the one who began the second lynch and it stood alongside another Townie.

Yabbaguy: I think you played quite well throughout the first two days. You were scumhunting and no-one suspected you in the slightest, which is exactly what is needed from Town, but I'm unsure what happened on the last day that did get you under fire, I was just glad of it.

I still say Yabba was the most Townie seeming player this game, and I wouldn't be surprised if you'd get MVP if this were a larger game.

I played quite badly at times here. I made a lot of bad posts, and my mistake on D1 could (and probably should've) cost us the game.

Anyway; I look forward to playing a lot more games with you guys and girls, except maybe AA. Thock was great, IMO. Mod-MVP.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

IDGAF about the graphics, TBH. I see it in the same way as "L-1 EVERYONE!" which you could just post, but it's just prettier. The difference I get is that "L-1." is just stating it, "L-1!!!" or the graphic is ensuring the Town know. It's like saying "I'd just like to confirm I'm not the Doc, as I said before.". You read into it in the same way.

The replacements did suck, I have to admit. I think they're most of the reason we won in the end, because it came down to us Vs three people on D2, and that helped a lot. (Then PP replaced in and it just became a s**tfest of the new person getting lynched.)

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP: Didn't notice the extra page.

Yeah; no hard feeling Kirby. We were slating you pretty hard, I think, and I know how much it sucks to be under fire all game and then be killed.

Hope I get to play as Town again next. Need to get that experience in soon. xD

YJ