Newbie 835: Game Over

[YamiJoey]

yesterDay

Am I missing some terminology here? Just want to know if this doesn't mean "yesterday" and is a common term that I've not come accross.

It's possible Kirby posted the wrong little symbol, or possible he missunderstood where the vote was at, but I can't shake the feeling that he was trying to trick someone into hammering.

Beat me to it. When I read Webz' post and he pointed that out I was a little shocked. However; no-one else seemed to realise (including me), so it is very possibly a mistake. (Unless I am the only one who didn't realise that the majority had dropped; in which case forget I said anything, because that's quite numb.)

And yeah; Kirbyoshi is

actually

at L-2.

If I were scum, I would jump on the bandwagon at some point, to lynch a townie

Jumping on the bandwaggon isn't the Scum thing to do. The place you start after a Townie has been lynched is by looking at the FoS, HoS and Votes for that player since the game started. The more you push a Townie over the edge; the more suspicious you look.

It's all your wine, Kirby, if you catch my drift.

ilold. What you stated was perfectly logical, and I don't understand what Kirbyoshi is trying to insinuate.

YJ

[Kirbyoshi]

Boy, that was a big mistake on my part. I thought there were 8 alive when there were only 7...my bad.

Jumping on the bandwagon isn't the Scum thing to do. The place you start after a Townie has been lynched is by looking at the FoS, HoS and Votes for that player since the game started. The more you push a Townie over the edge; the more suspicious you look.

If I remember correctly, and if the thread doesn't lie, I didn't push AA anywhere. I'll post my explanation of my WIFOM next post...

[Kirbyoshi]

Am I missing some terminology here? Just want to know if this doesn't mean "yesterday" and is a common term that I've not come across.

It is terminology, thought I don't know how common. Yesterday=IRL and YesterDay=in-game. It helps to distinguish betwixt the two.

I know you didn't suspect Double A. However, a good scum tactic would be to stay off a vanilla wagon so you can say "Well it's not my fault he got lynched."

What I meant was, that a good scum tactic might be to jump on a wagon, and then later say, "Well, if I was really scum, I would stay off to keep suspicion off of me. That's the WIFOM.

[yabbaguy]

Many people would policy FoS someone who provides false information, like Kirbyoshi. I don't policy... anything, but it's something to keep in mind. Like YJ though, I think there's some element of forgetfulness, and I think it'd be hypocrisy for me to accuse Kirby on that particular point, seeing as I thought it was L-2 as well.

I do have definite suspicions of YamiJoey for hammering, especially considering that I find it hard to believe that of all Mafia theory, he didn't read anything about not hammering too soon. Maybe he did genuinely overlook it. Maybe Joey's more in over his head than he thought he was prior. I find that very strange though...

@Webz or Joey: Did Joey actually vanilla claim?

---

Sometimes newbie games are tough, it's hard to tell if someone is actually scum or just slipping by with the newbie card. Innocent until proven guilty, I suppose, and while I've seen plenty of anti-town from Joey, I don't know if I've seen scummy. Kirby, I think I've seen scummy.

[Thok]

Official Vote Count (deadline 9/29)

Kirbyoshi (2): (yabbaguy, Devotress)
YamiJoey (1): (Kirbyoshi)
Webz (0):
Devotress (0):
fallen angel (0):
yabbaguy (0):
orangepenguin (0):

Not Voting (4): (YamiJoey, fallen angel, orangepenguin, Webz)

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Please let me know if I've made a mistake.

Fallen Angel has 24 hours to respond to his prod; if he doesn't respond by then I'm hunting for a replacement.

[yabbaguy]

@Kirby-177:

What I meant was, that a good scum tactic might be to jump on a wagon, and then later say, "Well, if I was really scum, I would stay off to keep suspicion off of me. That's the WIFOM.

You're the one who instigated the whole ordeal. Hence the "it's your wine" remark.

[Webz]

I do agree that putting AA at L-1 was a little scummy and bad play in a newbie game. I probably would do it with more experienced people, because the newb excuse would be irrelevant. But anyway, if AA had responded properly to the L-2, then it wouldn't have been necessary.

Yeah, kirby is showing a LOT of subtle scumtells. I don't know if there's enough there to merit a lynch, but he's the one that has consistently scummy. However, this would be so bad scum play that I'm really not sure if I want to really suspect him too much for it.

EBWOP: Also; I know Mafia theory, and am not acting like a n00b. I'm new to

not having any powers

, so having to get information purely on posts is proving difficult to me.

There's your vanilla claim. Unless, of course, it's a goon claim.

Okay, I'm putting a new kind of vision on. Behavioral analysis. I'll post my own behavioral analysis ASAP, but what do other people think about people, especially kirby and YJ, under behavioral analysis?

[Webz]

Kirby's actions in light of the article(s)

Universal tells are the traditional slip-ups that have been identified over years of playing and study. They are activities where the most common explanation of the tell is that the player is scum, and there is a reliable, proven correlation between the behavior and mafia players. A short list of some of the more common examples could include:

-Malicious OMGUS attacks in response to pressure.

This seems like Kirby vs HP (town) in a nutshell.

-Overaggression in voting patterns.

Yes. Putting YJ at L-1 for no reason. And being agressive to me, HP and YJ day one.

-Atypical patterns of participation, such as posting only enough to avoid scrutiny, or avoiding certain critical discussions within the town and commenting only on tangential issues.

He did lay off from his aggression when it was pointed out, and didn't go into describing his innocence at all.

-Waffling and taking both sides of an issue.

Not much, but:

This: I think going against YJ but discounting the STRONGEST piece of evidence in order to maintain your universal right to hammer and be a newb is suspicious.

I'm honestly kind of disappointed that I'm coming under fire for being the first one to be suspicious of YJ. My vote was the only one on him yesterDay. I think I said before, the hammer is probably not just a newbie mistake. So, just like yesterDay, but with at least some support now...

-Lying.

L-2 sign for L-1. Then saying he thought that there were eight people.

-Poor, unpersuasive, or faked vote rationales.

His case on me and HP wasn't backed enough, IMO. His case on YJ was okay, however.

-Unusual timing of a claim, or role information.

No. We haven't had a claim.

Emotional tells: Fighting for the sake of fighting. Scumhunting the wrong way round. He has kept himself together, however, which is a townie tell.

[Kirbyoshi]

Ok, so I tried to post longer responses, but IE ate my post, so...

This seems like Kirby vs HP (town) in a nutshell.

How is it OMGUS if I start the discussion?

being agressive to me, HP and YJ day one.

I don't recall being overly aggressive toward you. Maybe some post numbers would help?

discounting the STRONGEST piece of evidence in order to maintain your universal right to hammer and be a newb is suspicious.

Don't understand this. Could you please go into more detail so I can explain it?

L-2 sign for L-1. Then saying he thought that there were eight people.

I honestly had a brain fart and thought there were 8 alive. But I'm not surprised that you find it suspicious, as it's quite similar to my case against YJ.

[Webz]

This seems like Kirby vs HP (town) in a nutshell.

How is it OMGUS if I start the discussion?

It might not be defined quite as OMGUS, but attacking with practically no evidence is pretty much OMGUS. And starting the discussion is a good thing. Starting the discussion by putting yourself in the scumlight isn't a good thing. That's part of what killed AA.

being agressive to me, HP and YJ day one.

I don't recall being overly aggressive toward you. Maybe some post numbers would help?

More of a poke, but I'm not discounting it, by any means.

I don't have a vote that stands yet either. Does that make me scummy? Also, I re-rolled on random.org, and you came up.

Vote: Webz

discounting the STRONGEST piece of evidence in order to maintain your universal right to hammer and be a newb is suspicious.

Don't understand this. Could you please go into more detail so I can explain it?

Sure. If you use a piece of evidence, you're advocating that piece of evidence's use against people. Like yourself. However, if you discount one's use, you're saying that you think that it isn't a scumtell, and in turn, you're making it less likely to be used against you. So, you could argue that you want to be allowed to hammer and play the newb card.

L-2 sign for L-1. Then saying he thought that there were eight people.

I honestly had a brain fart and thought there were 8 alive. But I'm not surprised that you find it suspicious, as it's quite similar to my case against YJ.

It's a mistruth, but it really isn't a problem unless you repeatedly don't tell the truth. It's not putting you in a LAL lynch, by any means.

I see YJ more scummy than kirb right at the moment, but I think that it's quite likely that none of them are scum.

[Devotress]

I honestly had a brain fart and thought there were 8 alive. But I'm not surprised that you find it suspicious, as it's quite similar to my case against YJ.

I know you are talking to webz, but, for the record my vote on you wasn't a "let's all lynch kirby vote" so much as a "this is where my suspicions lie" kind of vote.

[Webz]

I honestly had a brain fart and thought there were 8 alive. But I'm not surprised that you find it suspicious, as it's quite similar to my case against YJ.

I know you are talking to webz, but, for the record my vote on you wasn't a "let's all lynch kirby vote" so much as a "this is where my suspicions lie" kind of vote.

Wait... What? He's talking about suspicions, and then you come along and say, "Wait, Kirby, I'm not talking about a lynch, I'm talking about suspicion." But that's what he was saying. It seems that you're only seeing what you want to see, which looks borderline scummy.

But it may just be clarification that you don't see it more suspicious than he does in retrospect.

And I just noticed, is meant to be laughing. It doesn't look like laughing to me. Anyway...

[Devotress]

I just wanted to clarify I wasn't gunning for a Kirby lynch just yet. I guess the quote I quoted wasn't relavent.

[YamiJoey]

Bollocks to you Webz, why can't you stick to one line posts? lol

If I remember correctly, and if the thread doesn't lie, I didn't push AA anywhere.

Which is my point. You didn't do it as a way to avoid suspicion, a point pointed out by Webz. As far as that WIFOM goes; I see what you mean. When you said "WIFOM" I simply assumed you meant his accusition against you (which confused me), but you're the one who said it, so you basically just made a claim against yourself.

Yes, I claimed vanilla.

Just started reading 182 and I'm called away.

YJ

[Devotress]

Yes, I claimed vanilla.

Even though it isn't a scum move, telling everyone you're vanilla isn't very pro town if you're actually vanilla. It gives the scum one less target in there hunt for power roles.

[Webz]

Yes, I claimed vanilla.

Even though it isn't a scum move, telling everyone you're vanilla isn't very pro town if you're actually vanilla. It gives the scum one less target in there hunt for power roles.

I'll let it slide here though, because we would have forced him to claim today, anyway. He did, however, say it in a time and place that made it take some of the blame for him from the hammer.

[YamiJoey]

^^^

That. I'm not going to simply claim role early. I did that in my first Mafia game and it ended up just becoming crap and everyone claiming. (Eventually it got into a Screen-shot battle, and we put the role "no quotes/SS from private thing")

YJ

[Devotress]

I'll let it slide here though, because we would have forced him to claim today, anyway. He did, however, say it in a time and place that made it take some of the blame for him from the hammer.

Fair enough, I guess he would have had to.

[Kirbyoshi]

So, you could argue that you want to be allowed to hammer and play the newb card.

I don't think I ever left that as an option for me. In fact, if I hammer without reason, I fully expect every other player to jump on me, simply based on that fact.

[YamiJoey]

You would say that now that someone's called you out on it.

I was replying to that post (that Kirby quoted) and wanted to argue against it, but couldn't think why. It reminds me of the "Hitler built Autobahns" thing I read, but I don't think it's quite the same. Either way; it doesn't seem like a proper argument. Combine that with the fact that Webz

should

have died, and I'm not liking where it's going. I mean, yes Poirot was pretty much considered confirmed Townie by everyone, but Webz is deinitely directing the Town where to go more than anyone else. I'd get rid of players actively trying to kill Mafia before players who simply aren't considered Mafia. It provides longevity.

This became suspicious after a recent game I was in finished and someone else was in the same position. He claimed that he wasn't being killed because people were asking "Why aren't you dead yet.". I suppose one night isn't enough to go on, but it just got to me. Possibly because I've just read about the similar situation.

YJ

[Kirbyoshi]

This became suspicious after a recent game I was in finished and someone else was in the same position. He claimed that he wasn't being killed because people were asking "Why aren't you dead yet.".

And did this player end up being town or scum? I ask merely for information.

[Webz]

@ YJ: The mafia had no idea if there was a doc. If there was, he most probably was protecting me. They also knew that if they voted HP off, it would seem to frame both me and Kirby, because I'm not dead, and Kirby got at HP's throat for barely anything and it was never resolved. However, they could be a bit surer about people's roles tonight if they see lots of vanilla. This doesn't mean they'll nightkill me (maybe even because you brought this up). I think you underestimate the ability of mafia to manipulate the town. Do you really think that I was a better mafia target last night? What about Yabba? He seemed very townie yesterday, more so than HP. You're saying that it would have been correct play to lynch me, but I think that they cared more about getting a pro-town player down than a specific one, and risking not night-killing.

It seems an awful lot like you're going back to your Too Townie argument.

Kirby: And yes, no one wants you to hammer. But if we let it slide in YJ's case partly because you think that it is a null tell, then you're not very likely to be lynched.

Please tell me where my logic is wrong. Don't just quote the last point and say you don't think that the conclusion is right. Because, if I'm wrong, then the logic has to be wrong somewhere. It's like retorting to a post full of scumtells that comes up with the conclusion "You're scum" by saying "I'm not scum." It's not valid, because if you're town, then you should have a townie excuse to each of the points.

If you use a piece of evidence, you're advocating that piece of evidence's use against people. Like yourself. However, if you discount one's use, you're saying that you think that it isn't a scumtell, and in turn, you're making it less likely to be used against you. So, you could argue that you want to be allowed to hammer and play the newb card.

I don't think I ever left that as an option for me. In fact, if I hammer without reason, I fully expect every other player to jump on me, simply based on that fact.

That doesn't mean that it's a bad play as mafia. YJ hammered, everyone jumped on him. Is he certain to get lynched? No.

[Kirbyoshi]

But if we let it slide in YJ's case partly because you think that it is a null tell, then you're not very likely to be lynched.

I never said I thought it was a null-tell. In fact, quite the opposite, it's my main reason for voting for YJ. I'd like a quote of where I said it was a nulltell, because to my knowledge, I never did.

[Webz]

But if we let it slide in YJ's case partly because you think that it is a null tell, then you're not very likely to be lynched.

I never said I thought it was a null-tell. In fact, quite the opposite, it's my main reason for voting for YJ. I'd like a quote of where I said it was a nulltell, because to my knowledge, I never did.

Doh. I missed a "not".

I feel like an idiot.

Okay, your case on YJ today is fine. So no scumtells there.

[Kirbyoshi]

It's ok Webz, no hard feelings