California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[Mighty Orbots]

/confirm

[Mighty Orbots]

As far as the On-Camera decisions / Off-Camera lynching goes: I believe that we should desginate, right now, either the Director of Photography role or Director of Audiography role to signal to the on-camera players when we have made an off-camera lynch.

FTR, we (and by we, I mean Zorblag) have already found some music for this exact purpose, so we're ready.

In other news, I am confirmed innocent, and I'm 99% sure that Count de Morcerf is innocent.

Wat.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

To make the previous post clear, when I play Leonard Cohen's "Closing Time" it means that the off stage thread is ready for the on stage thread to make their decision no matter whether it's been a lynch or not. I hadn't realized that we would be able to talk ahead of time so I prepared Ugly Duckling's "Slow the Flow" as a song to post at the start to remind the on camera folks that the off stage crew might need time to converse and lynch as well as the Leonard Cohen one which was supposed to let them know that discussion had ended.

We've got 3 other pieces of information that we can pass on through zwetschenwasser and Mighty Orbots. What else do we want to be able to let the on camera people know? If there's anything too complicated we can use the stuntman to get someone on camera right away to pass things on but we should try not to use that if unless something unexpected comes up. What else do we expect we'll need those that can't see this thread to know?

Further, since I can say it while people on camera in scene one can see it we almost certainly want to do whatever the advocates say in the first scene. Unless we got particularly unlucky we should have at least one town advocate in the scene. If the two advocates disagree then one of them should almost certainly be scum so the scum has good reason to fail to deceive us right at the start.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Yeah, I agree that the Ugly Duckling track isn't needed anymore which is why I want us to settle now what we want to use the two pictures and one other song to indicate.

MafiaJin, it looks like the ones on camera aren't part of the lynch process; the decisions on camera will take 9 players out of the probably more interesting discussion (especially day one) and put them in a holding pattern. Your job seems to be something of a 4-shot day jailkeeper to me.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I assume we get to see the on camera thread. We could pass information suggesting how the Off Camera group feels about the On Camera decision.

Well, like I said, day one that shouldn't be much of an issue. It's easy to deal with that though. If the off stage players think that the advocates decision shouldn't be followed (and they're agreeing) I'll play "New York City" by They Might Be Giants.

If the Advocates disagree then I'll play "I Will Survive" by Cake if the off stage crew agrees with curiouskarmadog and I'll play "The Gambler" by Kenny Rogers (the Muppet Show version) if the off stage crew agrees with Panzerjager.

I'd be surprised if any of those came up.

Well, when we lynch someone and find out their alignment, that might be a useful thing for the on-camera people to know, since that could help them figure out if they should trust their advocate or not, if they're keeping careful notes about this thread and who they thing might be connected to who. That's be a pretty simple thing to communicate; all you'd need is a picture of their avatar, and then either a picture of an angel for "good guy" or a picture of a demon for "bad guy".

Do we learn the outcome of the lynch before the scene ends? Reading the rules it looks ambiguous. I'll check with mith.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Orblots- I will assume if you play someones public role theme/name in title of music(some role themes are evident others would be a little harder to define a theme) that will be in support in favor of their idea/post/current other person/thing they are voting- as a general rule of thumb. Feel free to change that before the camera rolls. And no offense Orblots, but the on camera people will probably be taking 9-10 days anyways. If for instance scum is about to be lynched and they are the sound crew for instance, they may try to end the day early by giving us a false signal.

If we want themes for each player I'd like to establish them ahead of time but especially day one I don't think that it's that likely we'll need to indicated anything about particular players (if others disagree then let me know and we'll set up a system.)

As for the worry about me (or zwetschenwasser) providing false information to those on camera there are ways we can deal with it should it become an issue. We've got the stuntman to replace in and give warning about that, we can set up a signal from the other of the two of us (if zwetschenwasser passes on information that you shouldn't trust I'll use "Some Postman" by The Presidents of the United States of America) and even if there was some sort of success the perpetrator would be lynched within the next couple scenes.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Current soundtrack messages:

"Closing Time" - Leonard Cohen: Discussion is done offstage, make your decisions.
"Slow the Flow" - Ugly Duckling: More time is needed offstage. Don't make your decision yet (obsolete)
"New York City" - They Might be Giants: Off Stage we think the advocates are lying.
"I Will Survive" - Cake: Offstage we think CKD is telling the truth as an advocate.
"The Gamber" - Kenny Rogers (muppet show version): Offstage we think Panzerjager is telling the truth as an advocate
"Some Postman" - The Presidents of the United States of America: zwetschenwasser is lying with his pictures.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

My view is that this should be a conduit of the entire off stage group's thoughts. It gives us a way to send information to the on camera players and there's no reason they should just get what Papa Zito and I think is the case. The "we" would be at least a majority of those offstage (ideally a consensus.) I expect the system zwetschenwasser sets up to have the same principle behind it.

I'm going to be posting condensed lists of the messages like I did with my last post if I add any. It should make them easy for those that will be on camera to copy them into some format.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

In other news, I am confirmed innocent, and I'm 99% sure that Count de Morcerf is innocent.

Wat.

-PZ

I'm still waiting for an explanation for this.


-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Does anyone have a very clear and concise explanation of the mechanics in this game? I don't feel that I can start playing until I understand. I mean, I don't need to understand completely, but I'm really

really

confused about it all.

Arrite, here's how I think it works. The game is in two phases.

Phase 1

In phase 1, we're split into two threads, on-camera and off-camera. The off-camera crew can see what's going on in the on-camera thread but not vice versa. In order to allow a form of limited communication between the two, the off-camera crew can send two songs and two images to the on-camera thread (via Orbots and zwet).

The job of the on-camera crew is to make a decision about something. 4 of the players in this thread are pre-determined, and the rest are chosen by the director. I haven't a clue what they're deciding, but evidentally they can make a right choice and a wrong choice. There's an Advocate to help them figure out which choice to make, but the Advocate is chosen by the scum so I dunno if we should pay attention to them or not. This has some unknown effect on Phase 2 of the game.

Meanwhile, the off-camera crew is busy lynching people. I'm guessing this functions like a regular mafia game. That weird voting system (which I think we should avoid, really) comes into play here.

Phase 2

Seems there are three potential triggers for Phase 2: either we finish Scene 7, or we lynch all the scum but two, or we lose all our townies but five. The scum will choose the 7 players (5 good, 2 bad) that will make up the final group. Depending on how well the on-camera groups did, this phase will either be easy or hard. I don't know what makes it easy or hard though... maybe one side or the other gets more power roles or something. Also this phase is all On Camera so I guess anyone not picked gets to sit out in the Off Camera thread, or maybe they just don't get to post at all.

Hope that helps.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

And now the giant robot disputes itself.

There are 5 predetermined actors per scene (rather than 4), the advocate (or advocates) are chosen by the scum after the first scene (where they're picked at random), and some details about the choices for each scene are known. It's all in Post 4. Scene one will be a choice of who to follow.

The Condorcet system should only be an issue if we don't lynch people offstage. We can avoid it coming up just by making sure we get majorities. It's not that complicated but it is pretty gamable so it's best if we don't try to let it come up too much.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I have evidently chosen not to explain it at this time.

Then I don't see why you brought it up in-thread.

Also: my other half is nit-picky but insufferably correct. heh

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Gaspar, if you really are confirmed town, and you can confirm someone else, then you're doing the town a disservice by not explaining why. I could go into particulars on why I feel this way but this is a very veteran group so I don't think it's necessary.

DGB, you're tunneling awfully hard on zwet.

vote: Mr. Grey

[Mighty Orbots]

EBWOP: That's a PZ post.

[Mighty Orbots]

Hmm, a couple quick questions for now.

ShadowLurker, apparently you didn't want to talk about (your vote? your problem with 99%) but were the vote for KY Krew and the 99% comment supposed to have any connection at all?

Thok, why put some of the names in brackets like that on your list?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

OK, I wondered if that might be it (and it matches what it looks like Gaspar was trying to do with his list) though it seemed fairly early to have a list that involved and also have number of ties with exactly two people in them like that. I'll check with Mith about the formatting; my familiarity with Condorcet voting has always involved a complete, unambiguous list of participants but my experience is fairly limited.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I also noticed this, but the question is, is Wiggin going to do the same thing? It's quite possible that the advocates will advocate for the other. I feel like we shouldn't jump to conclusions quite yet, because we don't know what the deal is there.

-Cow

It'd be handy if the advocates did disagree. If they've got knowledge for this particular one it's probably unambiguous (the situation is particularly simple and there are just two choices) so I'd assume that both will know what the right choice for the town is. If one's on the town side there's no way they should give bad advice so if they disagree we know we've got at least one scum between them. I mentioned that before the scene started so those on camera should have had a chance to see it.

What I didn't mention at the time was that although it's a bit ambiguous I think that the rules indicate that we'll learn after the scene is over whether or not the choice was a good one or a bad one. If we do end up with two scum advocates here and they both agree and it was bad advice we'll know that we can lynch both of them.

This first scene at least there shouldn't be anything of interest happening on camera as there's a pretty clear best choice for them to make. All the good stuff should be going on back here.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

What I didn't mention at the time was that although it's a bit ambiguous I think that the rules indicate that we'll learn after the scene is over whether or not the choice was a good one or a bad one. If we do end up with two scum advocates here and they both agree and it was bad advice we'll know that we can lynch both of them.

Actually I don't think the rules mentioned whether the choice will be revealed as good/bad at the end of the scene or at endgame. I just assumed at endgame.

-dahill

Yeah, looking back I see that the rules don't make it as clear as I'd thought on their own. I was thinking that it was implied that we'd learn at the end of the scene but it looks like I just decided that was much more likely as otherwise the scum with their ability to pick advocates and the results of the choices have too much power to deceive. In any case, I'll ask Mith.

Oooh, that's actually a great way to communicate with those in-thread. We can make a list of messages we want to relay, make sure the Stuntsman copies them down, then switch the Stuntsman in every single day so that we can at least get a little feedback from the On-Camera players.

Reading is tech. The Stuntman can be switched in ONCE per game. I don't think it's really worth wasting it at this point especially when there's a clear decision of the Advocate. I am also hesitant to lynch our Director this early because of possible Mechanics/Info fallouts.

Actually, I'm almost positive that the stuntman job can be used more than once. Why else would someone new get promoted to it when it gets used. My guess is that once per game limit is for players rather than the job itself. It does specify that the job can't be used more than once per scene though so there is a limit for it as well. I'll ask Mith about that as well.

As for Gaspar's idea of using it to communicate, I've been saying we could do that. My inclination is to save it for times when we want to get something across that we don't have planned ahead of time with songs or pictures as it's much more powerful than what either zwetcshenwasser or I can do and unless we've got something worth saying we should hold onto it until we do need to say something. I think that enough of those in the On Camera thread know that they're supposed to be waiting for "Closing Time" that they'll pass it on to CKD (but I'll toss on "Slow the Flow" if they run things up to 3 votes quickly for some reason.)

The other use, getting MafiaJin back in this thread and to lynchability is another matter altogether. My experience with both MafiaSSK and Sajin lead me to believe that they shouldn't be counted on to make good choices if they're town so I'm not sold on their scumminess for the reasons you're pushing it but I've got nothing against bringing them in to question further.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

OK, I probably found the answer to my question about lists. Back in CT I the brackets were used to indicate ties (as explained here) so Thok probably does have that right.

GoffballsAndBaloons, talking directly to Talilan or voting for them just now isn't likely to accomplish too much as they're over in the on camera thread and can't read this yet or be voted by my understanding of how votes work.

zwetschenwasser, other than letting the on camera crew know when we're done with our discussion/lynching (which we've got a system for) we would potentially want to let them know that they're making what we think is the wrong decision with their votes or give a recommendation for a particular option if there are more than two choices. I don't know why the jobs we've got would exist if it weren't for the purposes of communication and I'm not sure what other than the decision they're working on we'd need to communicate to them about. Is there something else that you'd propose using them for?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Mod: Votecount plz

Vote: Goofballsandbaloons, Zwet, [People], No Lynch, Bagel Eating Cowfrog

Does this mean you think the DGB/Zwet interaction is some sort of scum gambit?

-PZ

Tags removed. Please use bold only for voting. - Mod

[Mighty Orbots]

Ya'll are gonna have to help me out with Zwet=scum. All I've heard so far is meta. Can someone give an example of how his play here compares to his play as scum?

Gaspar, you seem so dead-set on this that I'm kinda wanting to test your theory about our beloved Director. That said, I'm also a bit wary that you seem to have so much game knowledge that I don't.

BTW, the Mr. Grey vote wasn't random. If you guys read the previous few games, you'll see that he doesn't have our best interests at heart

and

he's been a character before. If his name appears on the votecount (sup mod?) then I'd recommend we attempt a Mr. Grey lynch.

[Mighty Orbots]

^^ Another PZ post. Cripes. I have to get used to signing stuff.

[Mighty Orbots]

That's three votes on camera coming too quickly for me. Putting the slow down soundtrack out there. Since the advocates have now agreed about who should drive the rest of the signals (other than "Closing Time") shouldn't be needed today but we do want to make sure they don't finish too early.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Seraphim, is your primary suspect still Zwet?

Gaspar, I think the second point was directed at you: He was saying that

you

were ignoring one of the potential win conditions. I disagree on this point in the sense that our win condition isn't determined by what happens in any one thread but a combination of the two.

Your other two points are well taken though, especially the first. I find it highly suspect that the hydra can't even agree that the choices made were the best course of action. And I agree, we can win on lynches alone and honestly this should be our goal, because a series of good lynches triggers our best Phase 2 scenario.

The only thing that makes me hesitate here is that the stuntman job is currently held by the KY Krew hydra, which hasn't posted anything other than a confirm. There really is no excuse for this since one of the main reasons for having a hydra in the first place is to keep activity up, so I'm starting to suspect intentional lurking. Other than that though I support the switch.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

zwetschenwasser, Talilan has asked a question on camera that's directed to us:

Raises voice so everyone can hear her

Hey - Does anyone remember whether there can be two bad choices in a single scene? Or is there always at least one good choice that can be made?

Could you give them a picture that says as unambiguously as possible that there is one bad choice and one good choice? It's only for this scene but that should do for now; they can see the rest after this scene is over.

I assume that everyone is following what's going on on camera. I'm still inclined to think that they should have Val drive as, despite everything else which is going on (which leads me to believe that I hadn't realized how complicated these choices were), we know that there was one good choice and one bad choice. That both advocates said Val should drive almost certainly means it was the good choice and, as we've now established, we do learn whether the outcome was good or bad after the scene is over.

On the other hand, if we collectively disagree with my take then we should get that information to them (probably via the stuntman.)

For those of you who don't know the parts of MafiaJin well, keep in mind that in Lynch all Lurkers MafiaSSK thought that it was a good idea to fake a particularly poorly conceived of post restriction as a day talking, pro-town mason. I can't share my similar story about Sajin as it's in a game that's still going on. In any case, I really wouldn't make the assumption that they're doing things because it's the reasonable thing to do even if he did have access to the opinions of others. GoofballsAndBaloons's argument there for how likely he is to take other scum with him if he's scum doesn't take that into account. It actually also doesn't particularly take into account how many scum might have been in the initial actors on the stage already nor that if he's scum then he's already taking 1/4 of the group as scum with just himself. 1/4 is likely closer to the ratio of scum to players in the game than 1/2 which is what he'd be taking if he took a scum partner.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting the phrase "win condition." Go to your role PM and look at the last line. It says, in bold, "Win Condition:" then lists your role's win condition. Better yet, go look at the very end of this post. It describes, word-for-word, the Innocent

win condition

. Saijin said that I'm ignoring "a win condition" which means he is apparently dealing with a win condition other than the standard Innocent win conditon.

This is why he needs to explain himself or die.

I see what you're saying now. It sounds like he let slip that he has multiple win conditions.

We need moar opinions on this issue.

[Mighty Orbots]

^^ PZ post. Sigh.

[Mighty Orbots]

Zwet, are you working on that image?

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

I would guess that both advocates are probably telling the truth about which choice is the "good" choice. Which doesn't necessarily say anything about their alignment; if a scum became an advocate on day 1, it'd probably be in his or her best interest to tell the truth rather then lie, since lying about that on day 1 is a surefire way to get caught and there's still a big chance the town won't listen to you anyway.

-Yos

QFT.

Elmosaurian, I get that they are probably both saying the truth about defending the "good choice." But are they both advocating in favor of the choice that is "good for scum" or "good for town?" Or am I missing something.

If they were both advocating the choice that was good for scum then we'd learn that after the scene was over when we learned the outcome of the decision. Then we'd lynch them both. I think that the only reasonable interpretation of good vs. bad for the decisions is that good means good for town and bad means bad for town.

So here are some things I don't like right now.

I don't like KY Krew's lack of activity. They're one of our means of communicating (arguably the most powerful) at this time and not having them here and paying attention has the potential to cause unnecessary confusion.

I don't like that zwetschenwasser seems not to be paying attention to the thread. Again, he's one of our ways of communicating with those on camera. Although he's posting he's either just not reading what I've been saying about using the songs and pictures to communicate or he's intentionally ignoring it. Others might disagree with my interpretation that Talitan was asking for input from those of us off stage but zwetschenwasser should have at least commented on it and whether he wanted to post a photo.

I don't like that Hewitt seems to be implying that those on camera should be considering doing something long term this scene other than agreeing with the advocates on day one. If both of them are saying that one of the choices is the good choice then that's what they should be doing.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Yes, one of the reasons that it would help to have zwetschenwasser get a picture to the on camera thread that made it clear that there was one good choice and one bad choice is that Talilan looked to me like they weren't sure exactly what the possibly outcomes were. Take away that and Talilan does look like they're causing as mcuh trouble out there as Hewitt is. I'd like to see if that continues after a clarification from us.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

KY's vote looks OMGUS to me.

I'd like to point out that Mr. Grey did appear in the votecount, but it doesn't seem like this idea will gain traction. :/

I'm still waiting on someone to explain zwet's meta and why it means he's scum here.

elmosaurian has spent the entire game doing game mechanics discussion and commenting on the on-camera thread. I believe this is called active lurking.

unvote: Mr. Grey
vote: elmosaurian

-PZ

Tags removed. Only votes/unvotes at the bottom of the post are counted. - Mod

[Mighty Orbots]

So on camera continues to be a mess. Right now I'd like zwetschenwasser to give a them a thumbs up picture (indicating that they should trust Locke) instead of the one he found before unless anyone back here thinks that the correct choice is not what both advocates are saying what it is. That should be less ambiguous given the more recent request from on camera I hope.

If that on camera nonsense keeps up then I do want to see KY Krew replacing someone on camera on Friday (one week in to the two week deadline) and clearing up the mess. Right now I don't care if he replaces MafiaJin, Talilan, Hewitt or MufBlade (I don't usually use abreviations or nicknames but ThebladethatkilledMufasa is too long to be worth my normal policy.) I want to wait till Friday to give KY Krew a chance to actually do something useful here; if they don't and they're the one we want to lynch then right now I'd probably be fine with that and I'd hope that those on camera can stop confusing what should be a simple issue.

Papa Zito gets to do the votes for our hybrid so I'm going to be keeping his latest vote when I put it at the end of this message as the last try didn't get counted but we're discussing it out of thread as I think that elmosaurian is making reasonable contributions. He should have a list reflecting our shared views later today I hope.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Unvote. Vote: elmosaurian

[Mighty Orbots]

But that's what we want them to do. Both advocates are saying to let Val drive and that's what they should be doing. Telling them we trust Locke should make it clear that we want them to follow his advice, shouldn't it?

If that's too confusing then how about a thumbs up with a woman driving something in the background perhaps?

At this point zwetschenwassers half-angle half-devil picture in a single individual is more likely to be confusing as it makes it look like some choices are both good and bad which is not the message we want to get across right now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Hmm, so a picture like this one:

http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Cele ... o6vU5l.jpg

Should get the information that we want across I would think.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

No, wait, that one has language in it. Let's see what else I can find.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

OK, last post for now I promise. I think this one should work:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_319/ ... gj99s0.jpg

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Dammit Zorblag. Back to your cave.

elmosaurian... THIS. IS. YOUR. LIFE!

Post 0: Confirm.
Post 1: Cowfrog's post is scummy. But not why.
Post 2: Zwet attacks "make sense" for being "not especially strong, but they're logical". Fencesitting.
Post 3: How to RP?
Post 4: Game mechanics (thread communication)
Post 5: I'm a Yos.
Post 6: Game mechanics (thread communication)
Post 7: Game mechanics (thread communication)
Post 8: Game mechanics (confusing game)
Post 9: Game mechanics (write down the codes!)
Post 10: Game mechanics (alignments)
Post 11: Game mechancis (condorcet vote)
Post 12: Game mechanics (scumhunting)
Post 13: Why vote me + game mechanics (votes)
Post 14: Unsure of MafiaJin (fencesitting) + on-camera comments (curiouskarmadog)
Post 15: Game mechanics (scum kills)
Post 16: I'm not going to defend MafiaJin.
Post 17: DGB question (why bring scum on camera?)
Post 18: On-camera comments (curiouskarmadog)
Post 19: On-camera comments (panzer)
Post 20: On-camera comments (advocates)
Post 21: On-camera comments (advocates)
Post 22: On-camera comments (advocates)
Post 23: On-camera comments (Talilan)
Post 24: On-camera comments (Hewitt)
Post 25: Game mechanics/On-camera comments (choices/Talilan/Hewitt)
Post 26: Game mechanics (tags allowed)

Total posts: 27
Total game-related posts: 24 (I'm subtracting posts 0, 3, and 5)
Game mechanics posts + On-camera comments: 20
PERCENTAGe MECHANICS + CAMERA: 83%


Someone tell me where the scumhunting is in here, I tried but I can't find it.

---

BTW, the thumbs up might make them think we were done in this thread.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Why must you look so scummy while zorblog looks so town?

I'd assume that's because I want to vote you but Troll wants to vote someone else.

What I'm making a big deal of is that you haven't scumhunted. A lynch must happen

in this thread

and must occur

on these players

. You have contributed next to nothing in that regard. That's what I'm making a big deal of.

When you confirmed, and how long you've been here, is immaterial. What's important is the vast majority of your posts (demonstrated by the percentage) have avoided looking at players here or offering opinions on players here. I find that scummy and I call active lurking. Give it whatever label you like.

[Mighty Orbots]

^^ PZ, yet again. blarg

[Mighty Orbots]

BTW, the thumbs up might make them think we were done in this thread.

OK, having my hydra partner apparently be as unaware as zwetschenwasser about what the thumbs up is supposed to signal is irritating. It's right there in both this thread and the on camera thread. It gives a specific signal in this case that we think that we can trust what Locke is saying. The woman driver that I came up with was supposed to reinforce that.

I'm wondering if we'd be better off sending the KY Krew in to explain the off-camera thought processes (as opposed to the zwet thumbs up picture.) It seems like we need to communicate three things to the on camera thread:

1. That we want Panzer to drive
2. That we're still trying to decide a lynch, so even if we want Panzer to drive, they should wait a while before voting
3. Maybe that the off-camera people want to see a discussion of why a significant portion of the on camera people are suspicious of what seems to be an obvious choice

Sending in the KY Krew would be a more efficient way to handle that (plus it would allow us to send in specific questions that other people may have.)

The first point there should be made clear with the picture. The second should be clear anyhow; we've got a very specific signal for when their discussion should end and hopefully it was reinforced by the "Slow the Flow" soundtrack. The third one is perhaps trickier. I'd like it if that conversation were to result from the picture being put in the thread but I suppose that's probably too much to hope.

It seems to me that the communication with those in the on camera thread via either the soundtrack or the pictures is much more effective if it can be done quickly in reaction to what's being said. We've taken long enough now that the thumbs up reaction isn't going to be as strong as it would have been had it been sent shortly after Talilan asked for our opinion. While it would be nice to make sure that we're sending the message we want to send with the picture I think that it's probably more important that zwetschenwasser be willing to use his judgment and try to keep the turn around down to a much shorter time than this in the future. Of course that means that I want zwetschenwasser to be paying closer attention to what's going on and that might be too much to ask for but it really shouldn't be.

I like using the pictures to answer specific questions as there's more flexibility in them than there is songs I think. The pictures can focus on one particular thing clearly while the songs will almost certainly contain multiple ideas. If we've got songs set up for predictable issues that might come up (like we do now) and have the pictures as a means of answering fairly simple unexpected questions that come up we can use the stuntman to handle anything that gets more complicated. It gets slightly trickier when one or more of our communication jobs is on camera (like next scene) but we can deal with that as we get to it.

We would need to dictate what exactly he's going to say. Any deviation should be under penalty of death.

As long as KY Krew gets the three points that Thok listed across (and whatever else we add before they get sent if we choose to send them) I don't really care how they say it. Stopping the vote from happening, making sure that Val drives and getting those on camera looking at why things have been such a mess there should be easy to do without us having to choose words for KY Krew to say. Sure, we lynch them if they don't do that but if they go in and get the job done in a straightforward way we should be fine so far as what we want to happen.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I'm posting the picture now! Yayzowr! FYI, Mighty Orbits is a little too paranoid about the picture discussion. I'm trying to understand the mechanics of this game while reading two threads, and although I think I've got it, I also DO want input on what picture to post. I've only got two. So calling me scum for not posting the picture now is not really valid.

Right. So my favorite part of this is that you've managed to post the picture which would have been useful back when it would have cleared up apparent confusion only after sottyrulez was able to step in on the on camera thread and make a great clarifying post (here in case anyone missed it.) Posting the picture after that leads to slight chance of confusion but mostly it's just being done when the posting is obsolete. The value of a communication role like you've got is that you can get disambiguating information into the thread quickly so that we don't have to rely on someone in the on camera thead having the sense that apparently only sottyrulez does there. I can't tell if you're intentionally being ineffective here or not but whether you're scum attempting to play your job poorly or just doing it because you don't do it well I don't want you there.

Papa Zito hasn't posted here today so I'm going to break one of my hydra rules and actually do my own voting. I don't have any reason to think that zwetschenwasser is town, if he's scum he's in a spot that can actually do us harm with the flow of information. Even if he's town if he's playing like this he's got a good chance of hurting us down the line. He gets my vote for now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Unvote.

List:

Vote: zwetschenwasser

, KY Krew, [Rawr Hydra, Seraphim], [GoofballsAndBaloons, ShadowLurker], [Bagel Eating Cowfrog, elmosaurian, Gaspar, Thok]

[Mighty Orbots]

KY Krew, those early game comments from Mighty Orbots are really the scummiest things that you've seen this game? And does GoofballsAndBaloons have the right read on your zwetschenwasser/MafiaJin stance? That's how I'm reading it as well and it's a pretty unimpressive reason to keep you around.

Gaspar, you're the one who's sure about hewitt; is that still true after what he's done in the on camera thread? I've been complaining about him for a while and recently I don't like his vote coming when it did and I hate this:

I mean honestly one of the advocates has to have the best interests of the innocents in mind and if they're both picking Valentine then obviously one of them is planning on screwing us over but the other hopefully knows what they're doing.

That's just not true from any understanding of the rules that would make sense. His next post (that he's just giving his lines) might indicate that he understands that but he's confusing things in there when they don't need to be confused in that way.

zwetschenwasser, add me to the list of those who want to see your Condorcet list.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Actually, no. I haven't mentioned Hewitt yet. I have no opinion of him one way or another at this point. Wrong name, bucko.

In other news, I am confirmed innocent, and I'm 99% sure that Count de Morcerf is innocent.

hewitt is the Count de Morcerf.

I do have a question for you, though. Could you please elaborate on the quote below (particularly the part which I have italicized)?

Papa Zito hasn't posted here today so I'm going to break one of my hydra rules and actually do my own voting.

I don't have any reason to think that zwetschenwasser is town

, if he's scum he's in a spot that can actually do us harm with the flow of information.

It's pretty much like it reads. zwetschenwasser could be scum or he could be town playing poorly. With most of the other players I've got some reasons to think that they have been helping the town. With zwetschenwasser I don't have that. It's a weaker statement than that I think he's scummy as I could see him making this sort of play as town given what I know of him, but he along with KY Krew is my best guess for scum in the game right now and I'm more worried about his potential to do damage to us as scum than I am KY Krew in the long run.

My first day reads tend to be pretty crappy (just take a look at my first day votes and suspicions in Lynch All Lurkers or Tofu Mafia.) That's why Papa Zito is supposed to be in charge of votes for our hydra. I'll vote for who I think is the best person to lynch but I'm not going to overplay the case I have on them.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Interesting. I had thought there was probably some underlying reason for the difference bewteen how you're reacting to Talilan and hewitt's behavior in the on camera thread. As apparently that's not the case what is it about Talilan that makes you lump her into the lynchable section that hewitt isn't also doing? Or is it just what she said before the scene started?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

OK, I can accept that to some degree. Personally I think that hewitt has been doing more to kick sand in what should be a delightful picnic of an easy decision than Talilan has but if you're working with the idea that Talilan has an idea of what's going on with the game and hewitt doesn't that does make a difference.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I'm also disappointed to see that's where Orbots landed his vote, but I can see Papa Zito doing it.

As Bagel Eating Cowfrog says, the vote for zwetschenwasser came from Zorblag, not from Papa Zito. I suppose that what I'd like to see from him is a plan to deal with the communication tomorrow as I'll be on camera and not able to pass messages on. Right now he seems to be stalling when I think he should be giving clear messages and not reacting like we need him to. Having a plan that I think works come from him might help mitigate my opinion for now. Especially if he followed it during scene two.

Having said that, I've come up with something already so if I don't get an answer I like I'm going to keep my vote where it is and push for something that I'm pretty sure will do the job nicely.

I do currently think that the on camera crew probably has things under control. I like what Talilan is doing now and I don't think that MufBlade is going to be able to confuse things too much.

Along those lines we can put MufBalde on my list of those on camera that I don't like the behavior of at all. I don't have experience with either Mufasa or 12Keyblade; can anyone let me know if this is what they'd expect from them if they're town?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Welcome to the game MrJellyLee, looks like you're nicely caught up already. In theory people on camera had a chance to read the rules. In practice it does seem a bit iffy.

ShadowLurker's vote was the very first on KY Krew and, as he said, it hasn't changed.

At this point KY Krew has had a chance to do something useful and I haven't seen it happen. Given that zwetschenwasser's vote would apparently be on KY Krew if it were to be cast I'm going to consider them at L-1 and say I'm ready for the claim most likely followed by my vote for them.

That means that I think that zwetschenwasser is going to be around tomorrow as our Director of Photography. Might Orbots is going to be on camera in scene two and I don't know who will end up with the stuntman job so I'm going to work with the assumption that we have to do all of our communicating next scene through zwetschenwasser. I would have liked zwetschenwasser to propose a plan (as I said earlier) but since he didn't here's what I want to see happen.

The advocate will be picking one of three doors, another of the three will be revealed as a bad choice. That will leave one good door and one bad door; the town will get to choose to switch to the one the advocate didn't pick or stick with the one they picked. Clearly this is based on the game from Let's Make a Deal and is supposed to remind us of the Monty Haul Problem. It isn't the same as the one selecting the door in the first place (the advocate) will have knowledge of which door is leads to the good option but we might as well go with that theme.

I want to see a picture of a car from zwetschenwasser when those off stage are done with their discussion, have made their lynch and they think that those on camera should keep the door the advocate picked.

I want to see a picture of a goat from zwetschenwasser when those off stage are done with their discussion, have made their lynch and they think that those on camera should switch to the other door.

Car = done and stay. Goat = done and switch.

zwetschenwasser, do you understand this? Does that system work for you?

Everyone else is welcome to chime in as well.

Should I get pulled off camera by the stuntman I'll use essentially the same signals only in the form of Cake songs instead of pictures.

"Stickshifts and Safetybelts" by Cake = done and stay.
"Sheep go to Heaven (Goats go to Hell)" by Cake = done and switch.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Apparently I'm too wordy and get ignored. Let's try shorter versions:

@ KY Krew: Claim now or you get my vote.

@ zwetschenwasser: Do you understand the following picture signals for tomorrow and will you be ready to send them:

Picture of a car: Done with discussion/lynch, those on camera stay with the door the advocate picked at the start.

Picture of a goat: Done with discussion/lynch, those on camera switch to the door the advocate didn't pick at the start.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Picture of a car: Done with discussion/lynch, those on camera stay with the door the advocate picked at the start.

Picture of a goat: Done with discussion/lynch, those on camera switch to the door the advocate didn't pick at the start.

That's probably not confusing for troll, but it might be for humans. How about a picture of a sitting dog for "stay" and a picture of a a wall switch for "switch?"

The car and the goat are a tribute to the Monty Haul problem scene two is clearly based on but whatever. As long as those on camera know what the pictures will mean it doesn't really matter what they're going to be. If zwetschenwasser doesn't like those particular ones he can pick new ones.

I do not really think ShadowLurker has information on KY Krew being “99% Mafia,” and if he claims to be serious then I am not going to consider it unless I have an explanation -- this is because if we lynch KY Krew and he flips Innocent, ShadowLurker will have pretty much washed his hands of responsibility by his emphasis that there is a "big gap" between 99% and 100%. If you really think somebody is that likely to be scum, then I would think you would do a whole lot more to get them lynched than what ShadowLurker has done. Usually my strongest cases get to maybe 65% certainty, so having something at 99% would be incredible and I can't imagine I would be doing anything but jumping up and down and screaming for blood.

But ShadowLurker wasn't saying that KY Krew had a 99% chance of being scum. The 99% comment and the vote for KY Krew were unrelated. I know because it was confusing so I asked:

Hmm, a couple quick questions for now.

ShadowLurker, apparently you didn't want to talk about (your vote? your problem with 99%) but were the vote for KY Krew and the 99% comment supposed to have any connection at all?

Thok, why put some of the names in brackets like that on your list?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Completely unrelated.

The 99% thing first turned up when Gaspar said that he was 99% sure that Count de Morcerf was town which ShadowLurker was reacting to.

Question at Large

: Did the town know that the consequences of the Scenes would be revealed prior to Mr. Grey making that clarification in the On Screen thread?

I ask because if Advocates

did not know

that lies would be revealed until Mr. Grey made that clarification, then that changes the entire situation. Mr. Grey made his clarification in Post 35 On Screen, and I think Mr. Grey made that post because he was specifically asked if consequences would be revealed. I am seriously wondering if Valentine was that person who popped the question, because if so, it definitely strengthens my theory that Valentine is trying to avoid lying by being vague.

It wasn't clear in the rules before the scene started and I was the one who asked for the clarification (after both advocates had already given their positions on camera.) As I said in Post 148 of this thread it was ambiguous but I was pretty sure from my reading that it was going to be the case that the result of the decision would be learned at the end of the scene. When I gave my advice to do what the advocates said if they agreed where everyone including those who would be on camera could see I failed to mention that so that in case both advocates did turn out to be scum they wouldn't have a reason coming from me not to out themselves by both giving the wrong advice.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Right, that's about as scummy as it's possible to be. If the wrong choice really was being made on camera I had a song to let them know not to trust either of the advocates but claiming he has information that he has to share with those on camera and running off without sharing that with us just looks like scum trying to delay being lynched.

I think we'll have a chance to talk to everyone between scenes but in case we don't right now my advice to everyone off stage next scene is to lynch KY Krew tomorrow. If MafiaJin puts him on camera to avoid that then lynch MafiaJin instead. If MafiaJin puts both of them on camera then use whoever the new stuntman is to bring either of the two back and lynch them. If MafiaJin also puts the new stuntman on camera then I suppose we'll just have to wait.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

So I've got to wait to see what KY Krew does on camera but I do have songs set up that will let people know that either curiouskarmadog or Panzerjager is telling the truth. If he does try to get them to let Locke drive today I can play one of those two if we think that's a good idea. Otherwise we'll have to see what reactions on camera look like and we might need zwetschenwasser to try to send some signal not to trust him.

I am assuming that we still want Val to drive; if people disagree let me know now. I'm also working with the assumption that KY Krew is likely to cause trouble over in the other thread so it's possible that all this will end up being moot.

And I suppose welcome off stage Talilan. Any thoughts you'd care to share about what's been happening in either location?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I suggest waiting to see what KY Krew is trying to communicate onstage before dismissing his latest move as undeniably scummy.

So he's about to get lynched and he conveniently remembers that he's got something that he has to share with those on stage so they make the right choice. Further he can't take the time to explain what's going on to the rest of us off camera but instead needs to leave immediately.

There are two things that could happen here. Right now they're on track to vote for Val to drive. Either he can change try to change that because of some mysterious reason that he didn't notice earlier when he said, "On-Camera decisions are pointing to Valentine driving, which I very much agree is the right choice," but found during a re-read or he can tell them to do what they were going to do anyhow (in which case he's got no reason to rush off.) It's going to have to be a really good story he spins out there because right now I'm not buying either of those two options as legitimate town moves at all.

If I'm missing something I'm happy to hear it but right now I'm not seeing how this could be a pro town move. I suppose that if he tells them to change to Locke Driving and we learn after the scene that this was the right choice I'll step back but I just don't see that happening. If he somehow knew that they were making the wrong choice (which would mean that both advocates are lying) then he should have shared that with us off stage before heading in.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

OK, let's get this straight right now then. If KY Krew on camera tells them to let Locke drive are you going to agree that's what we should do? That would apparently mean that you think that it's more likely that both curiouskarmadog and Panzerjager are scum and trying to trick the town (if either one is town they wouldn't be saying to make the wrong choice) and that KY Krew, who was in serious danger of being lynched, just happens to have information that lets him know that the wrong choice is about to be made and can go in and save the day than it is that KY Krew is scum trying to delay getting lynched and confuse things (or whatever he's trying to do at this point.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Do we know if the scum know the consequences of each decision On Screen? I am confused why a townsperson would be given such information in the first place; theoretically, he would have had that information prior to MafiaJin choosing who goes on screen, so if he were actually telling the truth it would have been possible for a townsperson to not be an Advocate On Screen but to still have information. My understanding is that only the

advocates

would have information, and maybe the

scum

.

Well, according to the rules after scene 1 the scum get to choose the outcomes of the decisions so they'll definitely know them then. I think that it's implied that the scum know the outcomes of scene one as well. I'll ask Mith.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Yeah, I'm waiting for KY Krew to say something out there. I've got prearranged signals to trust one advocate or another, one that says to distrust both and one that says that zwetschenwasser isn't to be trusted but I didn't get one ready for not trusting KY Krew which was clearly an oversight on my part. If he does say to let Locke drive I'm thinking that I should play the one that says trust Val as that should both convey it's original purpose and hopefully indicate that she should still be the driver. If others think that's a bad idea let me know sooner rather than later.

If I do end up putting on another song we're giving up my signal that we're ready for the day to end. If that happens hopefully those on camera will just wait till almost deadline to make their choice but we didn't talk about it ahead of time. In the future that should be the planned policy.

If someone has a great idea for a picture from zwetschenwasser that gets across the idea that we don't trust KY Krew I'd be all for it. I'm not quite sure what would do that though. A picture of Kentucky with an X through it perhaps?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Hmm, I got a reply to my question about whether the scum know the outcomes for scene one that said that I couldn't have access to that knowledge. I'm paraphrasing here. It seems likely that the scum do know the outcomes for scene one but apparently it will remain unclear.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Sorry for my absence. I am full of flu.

Just like to note that elmo has gone underground and I'm glad Jelly-person sees what I see.

Catcheting up.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Hmm, it looks like Talilan is correct; she and KY Krew have switched roles and KY Krew will be on camera tomorrow. We need to make as sure as possible that MafiaJin doesn't put Ms. Blue on camera tomorrow as well so that the stuntman is still usable during the scene; fortunately that appeared to be one of his only concerns for this last set of assignments so I would expect it to happen this time as well.

There is a more full version of the rules in the signup thread the queue forum. It includes both the rules for those on camera as well as the ones that were left out of the which applied to those off stage. We should make sure that everyone is aware of it before the next scene starts (it's what I look at when I'm logged into Zorblag and want to check something quickly that isn't covered in the Theme Park thread.) Apparently that might help avoid some confusion in the future.

There is information in the endgame section of the rules which says that the endgame scenario will be better for the town if good decisions are made on camera and worse for the town if bad decisions are made on camera. That certainly seems to indicate that there would be some long term consequence other than an alignment flip if we let Locke drive today (if there is a consequence of curiouskarmadog going from not scum to scum on the first night it seems sufficiently disconnected from the endgame.)

I believe that it was obvious what the choice on camera should be right from as soon as the advocates agreed that Val should drive. I said it before people got on camera at all in case others didn't think of it:

Further, since I can say it while people on camera in scene one can see it we almost certainly want to do whatever the advocates say in the first scene. Unless we got particularly unlucky we should have at least one town advocate in the scene. If the two advocates disagree then one of them should almost certainly be scum so the scum has good reason to fail to deceive us right at the start.

Given that I think that KY Krew is scum it would strike me as a bit odd for him to send Talilan back off stage as his partner. I know, I know, WIFOM but Talilan was certainly someone on camera who was getting negative attention back here. Despite what I'm saying previously in this post I do feel that Talilan was blatantly helpful a couple times on camera (reminding people of the deadline and that they had to avoid making a quick decision for example) and although I don't love all of their play on the whole I'm inclined to lean slightly town with my assessment of them.

I'd also be a bit surprised if two players like elmosaurian and Gaspar would really act like this if both were scum. If they're pushing a town lynch they're using very similar reasons and despite the certainty they're both expressing I'm not convinced that it's nearly as clear cut as they're making it out to be. I don't think that as part of the same scum team they would find acting in tandem like this would be a wise move.

I guess I'm thrown off by the certainty being expressed right now by all of elmosaurian, Gaspar and Talilan. Throw that certainty together with a deadline which is getting closer and it gives an uncomfortable feel to this lynch to me; like we're limiting our choices artificially.

In other news, KY Krew, for all the urgency they expressed in having to get on camera and share their huge revelation, seems to be stalling via inaction there. My guess is deliberate confusion and an attempt to rush the decision they have to make there after KY Krew finally gets around to talking.

ShadowLurker, Mr. Grey shows up now most likely because MrJellyLee put him in his list for the Condorcet system.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Right, I agree that we want to let those on camera know not to listen to KY Krew but as I've said the prearranged signals that I have that I could pass on right now would be to trust Val or to end the day. I don't think we want to end the day right now (I'm not sure where the Condorcet vote sits) and even if I said to trust Val that might be taken to mean trust her, follower her and end the day now.

It's much safer to have zwetschenwasser send a picture; I'm not sure whether he's prepared one or not so I went looking. Unfortunately the internet has failed me yet again. In addition to not being able to find something simple like a picture of a chimpanzee playing a trombone I can't find any of Carrie Fisher with an X through her. So I made my own. I have to confirm with the mod that zwetschenwasser can post this one without violating the extra information part of his job description but while I'm getting that checked everyone take a look and let me know if it gets the message across.

Picture here

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I've gotten approval for zwetschenwasser to post the picture I linked to (here it is again) if we think that does the job.

Also it looks like zwetschenwasser is still the Condorcet winner right now so that part of my concern is gone. His responsiveness here is another test but right now I'm still quite comfortable with his lynch.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

First off, I hate the continued back and forth between Gaspar and Talilan. Both seem to be resorting to worse cases as they go along and I agree with Gaspar that KY Krew should clearly be the lynch tomorrow.

I do want to hear hewitt and MufBlade explain what they were thinking when they made their on camera posts. I'm largely satisfied with what both Advocates have said at this point.

The on camera decision might have been complicated if the two advocates had disagreed about how to drive but they didn't. As soon as they agreed it shouldn't have been any sort of issue. As for the randomness of the scene, I don't think that it was random that John Locke and Valentine Wiggins were selected, probably it was for that relationship of Peter's alias to Val. I expect that was decided upon long before any actor were assigned to roles. I believe that the randomness is supposed to come from the actors getting roles randomly. Perhaps there were contingencies for who got the Locke and Val roles, I don't know.

To whoever the assistant producer is, I don't want any sort of confirmation of your identity so I'd say don't choose a replacement Director of Photography until Monday evening (scene 2 starts Monday morning if I'm reading the deadline correctly.) There's no need to rush it and that makes sure that everyone is back from their V/LAs so the scum can't rule anyone out by those means. Ideally we'll already know who will be on camera by then so you can be sure to pick someone who is off camera.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

So at this point I want a standard system for both the Director of Audiography and the Director of Photography to be able to send particular messages to those on camera. I set some up before scene one but clearly it wasn't sufficient. I know I can't get something exhaustive but we should at least cover all the major possibilities.

Here's a list of messages I can think that we'd want to be able to convey for any scene and my suggestions for signals:

* Don't Make the decision yet.
Picture: Red Light: http://www.trisha-johnson.com/stories/a ... plight.jpg
Song: Simon and Garfunkel, "The 59th Street Bridge Song": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPNybw-1kc0

* Make the decision now.
Picture: Green Light: http://www.goldenspikespeedway.net/Gree ... plight.jpg
Song: Leonard Cohen, "Closing Time": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVt6vhRAu3k

* Don't trust the stuntman.
Picture: Stuntman on fire: http://www.lloyds.com/NR/rdonlyres/AB55 ... untman.jpg
Song: They Might Be Giants, "My Evil Twin": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-zVbxoF ... re=related

* Don't trust the Director of Audiography.
Picture: Broken Record: http://actingschmacting.files.wordpress ... record.jpg

* Don't trust the Director of Photography.
Song: The Presidents of the United States of America, "Some Postman": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5TOlsmw ... re=related

* Fire the Director.
Picture: Donald Trump: http://newyork.corante.com/archives/You ... 0fired.jpg
Song: Atmosphere, "Guns and Cigarettes": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoD6YRzo ... re=related

If everyone knows what those mean ahead of time we can tailor other messages to particular scenes. If anyone's got something else that we should have a universal signal for I'd like to hear that as soon as possible.

If someone has an issue with any of those speak up keeping in mind that as long as everyone knows what they mean the symbolism doesn't have to be perfect.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

For the particular scene it's been talked about a bit. I'll keep the signals that zwetschenwasser agreed to so that there's not confusion (my Monty Haul based ones didn't meet people's approval apparently).

Scene two picture signals:

Switch to the other door and end the scene: Wall Switch: http://storageinsider.files.wordpress.c ... switch.jpg

Stay with the current door and end the scene: Dog Staying: http://askspikeonline.files.wordpress.c ... itting.jpg

If I get replaced by the stuntman and need to send signals (or if I get killed and someone replaces me off stage) the song signals are:

Switch to the other door and end the scene: Cake, "Sheep go go Heaven (Goats go to Hell)": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0mx5ERj1eI

Stay with the currend door and and the scene: Cake, "Stickshifts and Safetybelts": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3i7EFYk-_c

If we need other particular signals for tomorrow we should get them figured out now. These would only be for scene two.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

As the Advocate will have information (and in scene three we know we have advocates with partial information so I would assume that in scene two they should have full information about which doors are good and bad) it's unlikely that we'll need to use reasoning connected to the actual Monty Haul problem. Further it's confirmed that the Advocate will be able to talk so they'll be able to explain what they're doing.

If for some reason the advocate doesn't have that information then yes, the correct strategy would be to switch to the other door after the reveal but we're probably not actually in a Monty Haul problem situation here.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Arrite. In an effort to get back into this mess, and because we'll be on camera tomorrow, here's a player-by-player list. I'd encourage everyone who'll be on camera to do the same. FTR I'm not paying much to the on-screen junk here. Also this doesn't reflect Zorblag's views on things.

Bagel Eating Cowfrog - I like this hydra a lot.
curiouskarmadog - Need to see moar from this slot. Neutral for now.
elmosaurian - I didn't like this hydra at all at the start, and I don't like how most of its content now only comes on defense. The majority of anything that's not related to mechanics, on-stage thread or defense is in the "I don't like how X is doing Y" without followup which isn't particularly helpful. It smacks of someone throwing observations out to see which one sticks. Still leaning scum here.
Gaspar - I wasn't a fan of his claiming himself cleared, along with another player, without explanation. Cleared townies are devastating weapons. I'm especially unexcited on how he's majorly backed off of this theme as "lol just kidding guyz" now that others are calling him on it. That aside though I'm not thinking he's scum; he's been far too

visible

for that to be true, so I'm leaning town here but YELLOW ALERT.
GoofballsAndBaloons - Very active. Tunnelled Zwet to start. This makes me nervous because I don't know his meta but I

do

know his rep. This is balanced though with going after KY Krew rather early, probably too early for bussing; KY's flip will say a lot about this slot I think.
hewitt - Nothing but defense so far. Would like a scumlist. Or an opinion on something other than zwet.
KY Krew - Obvscum.
MafiaJin -

Very

leery of this player slot. I really don't like that it claims to have read the thread and then didn't post anything regarding suspicions on other players, but rather just started setting up the next day as if nothing had happened. Leaning scum here and I'd like to call his bluff and have him replaced.
Mr. Grey - Prob evil 3rd party.
MrJellyLee - I like this hydra a lot too, even if we disagree on Grey. Prob town here, though maybe this is colored by our shared views on elmo, hmm.
Panzerjager - I really need to see some more here. Also I find asking to be put back on camera somewhat shifty - we've established you can't be lynched there, you're under no pressure to scumhunt. Nuetral, subject to review.
Rawr Hydra - Half this hydra has been having an operation, but where is OGML? Giving a pass for now, but if OGML doesn't show up I'm going to call shenanigans. Nuetral for now.
Shadowlurker - Voted KY Krew really early; like GoofballsAndBaloons I think a KY flip tells us a lot about this slot. Everything else has been pretty good on the whole. Townish.
sottyrulez - Like Jin, this hydra claims to have read the thread but didn't remark on much.
StarKiss - Has yet to say anything.
Talilan - Liking this player slot too.
ThebladethatkilledMufasa - Lolwut name. No content and a desire to return to camera? No bueno.
Thesp - Too lazy to read, apparently.
Thok - Been prodding people, and listed KY early as well. Man, we really need to lynch KY Krew. Townish.


Scumlist FTW.

Prob Town

Bagel Eating Cowfrog
MrJellyLee
Talilan

Townish

Thok
GoofballsAndBaloons
Gaspar
Shadowlurker

Neutral

curiouskarmadog
hewitt
Rawr Hydra
StarKiss
Thesp
sottyrulez
Panzerjager
ThebladethatkilledMufasa

Scummy

MafiaJin

Prob Scum

elmosaurian
KY Krew

Special Evil 3rd Party Slot

Mr. Grey

[Mighty Orbots]

I do want to hear hewitt and MufBlade explain what they were thinking when they made their on camera posts. I'm largely satisfied with what both Advocates have said at this point.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Be More Specific Please.

OK, why did you post this:

DEATH'S SPLIT PERSONALITY HAS MANAGED TO CONCUR ON THIS POINT: FOLLOWING LOCKE IS THE ANSWER. VALENTINE WIGGIN HAS MANAGED TO EVADE ALL QUESTIONS DIRECTED TOWARDS HER. ALSO, IF SOMETHING TRAGIC WERE TO HAPPEN, WE WOULD HAVE MORE INFORMATION ON THE "SOMETHING ELSE" ALIGNMENT, AS WE HAVE BEEN LEAD TO BELIEVE LOCKE WILL JOIN THEM.

That came after zwetschenwasser's picture indicating that you should let Valentine drive and other than StarKiss (who I should have included on my list of those I wanted to hear reasons from) you were the last person who was recommending following Locke.

Somehow though, your next posts were a complete reversal of that stance with no explanation other than that following Valetine was the only way to move the game forward and a C-1 (choose minus one) vote to follow Valentine despite the fact that there hadn't been any signal that those off camera were ready for a decision to be made.

I'd like to know what you were thinking during those stages of the scene.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

And I will add I have actually been vaguely suspecting MIGHTY ORBOTS was a survivor or neutral for a while now, even before his most recent post. [1]The minimal number of people in his scumlist combined with [2]the fact he apparently finds myself Gaspar and Thok all townie looks like his main motivations are avoiding both the noose and the night-kill.

1. I've got a bunch of neutrals that I've yet to sort. When I get more I'll sort them.
2. Wat, you're not town? I gave reasons why, dispute them if you wish.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Panzerjager - I really need to see some more here. Also I find asking to be put back on camera somewhat shifty - we've established you can't be lynched there, you're under no pressure to scumhunt. Nuetral, subject to review.

Whoa, I didn't ask to be put back on stage, I said I didn't mind going. There seems to be an everygrowing list of people who should be staying and there will be some tough choices on who to send and who to keep. I was just saying that I don't mind being on the list that goes on-stage if it comes down to me staying or somebody else.

Ok.

While you're still here then, who're your suspects?

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Here's the list of messages we want to be able to convey for any scene and the current signals. Ideally this will not change past here (though I did take Talilan's suggestion for the song to fire the director as it was clearly better for conveying the correct message):

* Don't Make the decision yet.
Picture: Red Light: http://www.trisha-johnson.com/stories/a ... plight.jpg
Song: Simon and Garfunkel, "The 59th Street Bridge Song": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPNybw-1kc0

* Make the decision now.
Picture: Green Light: http://www.goldenspikespeedway.net/Gree ... plight.jpg
Song: Leonard Cohen, "Closing Time": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVt6vhRAu3k

* Don't trust the stuntman.
Picture: Stuntman on fire: http://www.lloyds.com/NR/rdonlyres/AB55 ... untman.jpg
Song: They Might Be Giants, "My Evil Twin": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-zVbxoF ... re=related

* Don't trust the Director of Audiography.
Picture: Broken Record: http://actingschmacting.files.wordpress ... record.jpg

* Don't trust the Director of Photography.
Song: The Presidents of the United States of America, "Some Postman": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5TOlsmw ... re=related

* Fire the Director.
Picture: Donald Trump: http://newyork.corante.com/archives/You ... 0fired.jpg
Song: The Wombats, "Kill the Director": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXCf6pPjaKw

If everyone could confirm that they've got these written somewhere before the next scene (especially those in the scene but as we don't know who that will be yet it's best if it'll be everyone) I'll feel much better.

Scene two specific signals are currently as follows:

Scene two picture signals:

Switch to the other door and end the scene: Wall Switch: http://storageinsider.files.wordpress.c ... switch.jpg

Stay with the current door and end the scene: Dog Staying: http://askspikeonline.files.wordpress.c ... itting.jpg

If I get replaced by the stuntman and need to send signals (or if I get killed and someone replaces me off stage) the song signals are:

Switch to the other door and end the scene: Cake, "Sheep go go Heaven (Goats go to Hell)": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0mx5ERj1eI

Stay with the currend door and and the scene: Cake, "Stickshifts and Safetybelts": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3i7EFYk-_c

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

As the Advocate will have information (and in scene three we know we have advocates with partial information so I would assume that in scene two they should have full information about which doors are good and bad) it's unlikely that we'll need to use reasoning connected to the actual Monty Haul problem. Further it's confirmed that the Advocate will be able to talk so they'll be able to explain what they're doing.

If for some reason the advocate doesn't have that information then yes, the correct strategy would be to switch to the other door after the reveal but we're probably not actually in a Monty Haul problem situation here.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

And, yes, that's the other reason that I didn't want to bring up and that we shouldn't be talking about at all now for making sure that we've got both a stay and a switch signal set up going into scene two.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

People have been asking for scum lists, here is mine so far. I expect some players will change once both heads have read the whole thread.

This is goodposting. I highly encourage everyone else to post one of these.

If content does not arive by the end of today (RL) feel free to lynch me. Homework kills

wat. Ask to be replaced if you can't keep up.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Zito- I never post full scum->town lists early in a game. You should know this by now. I find scum just manipulates the hell out of them.

Partial lists accepted. Top 4-5 and why plz.

Elmosaurian

Interesting. Elmosaurian is under some heat so you whisk them off to the safety of the On Camera thread?

[Mighty Orbots]

^^ PZ post. As if it weren't obvious, heh.

[Mighty Orbots]

I would also like to see Elmosaurian taken off-camera by the stuntman. I think he's scum, and even if he is town, I no longer trust him to reason through any decisions that could affect endgame setup.

Working on some other games at the moment, but I just wanted to pop in and say I support this 100% obv. I thought he was scum Day 1 and there was absolutely nothing in his play on camera that convinces me otherwise.

Dunno where Troll is, we'll discuss and get back with ya'll.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

The Wall-O-Text-A-Thon is making my head hurt. Anyway, update to this:

Bagel Eating Cowfrog

- I still like this hydra a lot.

curiouskarmadog

- Not sure what to make of this character. The only real iffy thing that I've seen is the whole "Screen Mafia Guild" business. If we hit day 4 or 5 and there haven't been any SMG flips then this guy needs to go. I haven't seen anything odd beyond that though so townish but I got my eye etc.

elmosaurian

- I didn't like Day 1, and I certainly didn't like Day 2. He did everything he could to push the idea that KY was possibly town and Door 2 was the correct choice. Lynch plz.

Gaspar

- I liked Gaspar's Day 2 play. I'm glad he wasn't just satisified with waiting around for KY to show up and autolynch him, but took the time to hunt in the interim. I also like his stance with elmosaurian.

GoofballsAndBaloons

- Ugh. So I figured KY's flip would help clear this slot somewhat due to the positioning but now we have this mafia/cult thing to sort through. Whichever is the case I sincerely doubt that KY and DGB are the same alignment, and nothing from Day 2 has hurt my town read.

hewitt

- I'm still not seeing anything from here but defense ("at least I'm not as bad as Panzer!") and a little mechanics. Dropping to scummy.

MafiaJin

- Needs to stay off-camera fo sho. Leaving at scummy for now, hopefully Day 3 will bring some clarity.

Mr. Grey

- Prob evil 3rd party that we should prolly lynch at some point.

MrJellyLee

- Day 1 was good. I really liked the Day 2 on-screen posts. Obvtown.

Panzerjager

- Lack of posting in Day 2 is really disappointing. I'm thinking scum waiting for the obvious lynch to blow over.

PookyTheMagicalBear(Rawr Hydra)

- Nothing Day 1, nothing Day 2 and has yet to post off-camera. Lurky scummy yes indeed.

Shadowlurker

- So I have some qualms about Day 2 for Shadowlurker. First was trying to use a coin flip to decide, and second was choosing Door 2. What really sets my alarm bells off was that illegal tags were used in both cases. I suspect this was done on purpose - gaming the system if you will - because she never attempted to fix the problem. On the plus side she voted KY really early Day 1. Need to see more and settle the cult/mafia business.

sottyrulez

- I liked the scumlist post a lot, but then nothing happened. :/

StarKiss

- Posting opinions with backing, no big issues here.

Talilan

- I have a town read here but a lot of people want Talilan's head(s). What am I missing? Someone post a case plz.

Thesp

- I'm still on the fence about Thesp. It almost seems like he's posting just enough to avoid a strike but when he does post it's usually pretty good. :/

Thok

- Voted the right door and was early on KY Krew. (I hate this cult business) I like that he's willing to hang out offstage.

VP Baltar (ThebladethatkilledMufasa)

- Mufblade was positively useless. VP started with a bang but trailed off as the day went on. Still unsure.


Scumlist #2 FTW.

Prob Town

Bagel Eating Cowfrog
MrJellyLee
Talilan

Townish

GoofballsAndBaloons
Thok
Gaspar
curiouskarmadog
StarKiss

Neutral

Thesp
sottyrulez
Shadowlurker
VP Baltar

Scummy

Panzerjager
hewitt
MafiaJin
PookyTheMagicalBear

Prob Scum

elmosaurian

Special Evil 3rd Party Slot

Mr. Grey

[Mighty Orbots]

Holy crap this thread is moving fast.

lol DGB.

[Mighty Orbots]

OK, one thing that I want everyone to take away from scene two is that we don't learn the alignment of the lynch until after the scene is over. That was made clear earlier but it still caused some confusion. I came up with what I hoped were clear picture suggestions for two hypothetical cases that couldn't exist and the one that could because that seemed easier than trying to stay in character and get the point across (besides, having it confirmed by those off stage would have carried more weight than just my saying it.) The bit about chicken was supposed to be me expecting the sort of typical bird you might find in a nest.

Anyhow, so long as everyone's got that we don't need to add any new general signals to indicate someone has been lynched. The green light/Closing Time takes care of that case just fine. Those will always mean that those off camera don't have an opinion about the choice but that the decision should be made.

What we will need are specific signals for scene three. Here's what we're going to use:

* Choose the Mother and end the scene:
Picture: Mother kissing baby: http://www.tsunamis.com/mother-and-baby.jpg
Song: The Rolling Stones, "Mother's Little Helper": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cfQ4O7FSH8

* Choose the Maiden and end the scene:
Picture: An Iron Maiden: http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2009/07 ... den2_1.jpg
Song: Crash Test Dummies, "Two Knights and Maidens": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlL4xOaiaNc

* Choose the Crone and end the scene:
Picture: Crone Mask: http://www.maryloubagley.com/img/artwork/crone.jpg
Song: The Crones, "Stuck In Between": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y30yVgEN ... re=related

Everyone going on stage should know those as well as the the universal signals from Post 675

Past that I'm exhausted and plan to spend more time later looking through this thread when I've got energy. I can say now that if our only goal was to figure out what's going on with our scum (or at least non-innocent) groups then curiouskarmadog would be the correct lynch. If he flips Innocent or Screen Mafia Guild then we can believe that there should be a Screen Mafia Guild in addition to Scientologists. If he flips Scientologist then it would seem pretty likely that we'd just have Scientologists (and even though we might still be unsure about the Screen Mafia Guild we could be fairly sure that we hit scum as consolation.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Crap, we can't use the mother picture I came up with, it has what might be written language on the child's outfit. Here's the list again with a replacement picture that doesn't have that issue:

* Choose the Mother and end the scene:
Picture: Mother kissing baby: http://hab.hrsa.gov/livinghistory/image ... _child.jpg
Song: The Rolling Stones, "Mother's Little Helper": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cfQ4O7FSH8

* Choose the Maiden and end the scene:
Picture: An Iron Maiden: http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2009/07 ... den2_1.jpg
Song: Crash Test Dummies, "Two Knights and Maidens": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlL4xOaiaNc

* Choose the Crone and end the scene:
Picture: Crone Mask: http://www.maryloubagley.com/img/artwork/crone.jpg
Song: The Crones, "Stuck In Between": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y30yVgEN ... re=related

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I've been following the thread, but the walls, oh the walls. Plus I don't want to interfere where people are doing a good job digging.

But this just popped up on my screen and made me lolwut.

Let me say this, because town has to understand this.

Town HAS to lynch right tommorow, if we possibly can.

There might be 4 or 5 or 6 scum left here. If there's 9 people on stage and 9 people off stage, then depending on how the numbers fall, it's already possible scum might end up having a majority either on stage or off stage. If there's 5 scum offstage, then there is zero chance the town lynches right tommorow; and if there's 5 scum onstage, then there's zero chance the town picks the right option tommorow.

Now, that's a worst case scenerio, and it's probably not all that likely. But each mislynch, it's going to become more likely, and the fact that there may be some days when it won't even be theoretically possible for town to lynch right means town needs to lynch every chance they can.

I mean, really Yos? Fearmongering? The bolded is especially bad... you're suggesting we may have started with 7 scum, plus a traitor? Out of 20 players? Seriously?

This whole posts smacks of "if you lynch me then scum will take over everything LOOKOUT!" which just simply can't be true because then we'd be playing in a broken game.

BTW, I concur with Troll's earlier post about lynching CKD. It would be hugely informative and would wipe out a lot of the excess text that's floating around the thread. Plus JellyPerson is making good points about the setup.

Anyway I'll post something more substantive tomorrow, but yeah, I just couldn't watch that post scroll by without comment. Yeesh.

-PZ (duh)

Tags removed. Use bold only for voting. - Mod

[Mighty Orbots]

Bah. Rules.

There might be 4 or 5 or 6 scum left here.

This was the bolded bit.

[Mighty Orbots]

If it's effectively a nightless game with no scum kills, which this is currently looking like, then a scum group of 6 people out of 20 is quite possible; nightless games tend to have a lot of scum to make them balanced.

This is quite a leap of logic considering we've only had one night in the whole game. Why are you dismissing the possibility that last night's lack of a kill was due to a Doctor, Roleblocker, Jailkeeper, etc?

Also...there's a scum traitor? Do you know something I don't?

Just paying attention to the thread. CKD was given a choice in scene 1 to betray the town but didn't. I'd call that a traitor.

I was pointing out that the way this game is set up, it is entirely possible for us to end up in a situation where

at one point or another, one day during this game,

scum may up completely dominating either the off stage group or the on stage group for a day, they may have either a true majority or close to it, depending on where the end up.

Italicized the middle bit for emphasis. This isn't what you were insinuating at all. You were saying if we mislynched

tomorrow

then we'd be in position to hand the scum to game. Since the town seems to be leaning towards lynching you, what this boils down to is that an elmo-lynch = a town loss. And there's absolutely no way I can buy this argument because that would mean the setup was broken.

Still reviewing the thread. Have a headache. Walls. Blarg.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

I'd like at as many people as possible that are going on camera (and for that matter everyone else because I'm not quite clear on exactly who that is at this time) to indicate that they know what the signals from off camera are going to look like for this scene. As a recap:

Universal Signals:

* Don't Make the decision yet.
Picture: Red Light: http://www.trisha-johnson.com/stories/a ... plight.jpg
Song: Simon and Garfunkel, "The 59th Street Bridge Song": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPNybw-1kc0

* Make the decision now.
Picture: Green Light: http://www.goldenspikespeedway.net/Gree ... plight.jpg
Song: Leonard Cohen, "Closing Time": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVt6vhRAu3k

* Don't trust the stuntman.
Picture: Stuntman on fire: http://www.lloyds.com/NR/rdonlyres/AB55 ... untman.jpg
Song: They Might Be Giants, "My Evil Twin": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-zVbxoF ... re=related

* Don't trust the Director of Audiography.
Picture: Broken Record: http://actingschmacting.files.wordpress ... record.jpg

* Don't trust the Director of Photography.
Song: The Presidents of the United States of America, "Some Postman": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5TOlsmw ... re=related

* Fire the Director.
Picture: Donald Trump: http://newyork.corante.com/archives/You ... 0fired.jpg
Song: The Wombats, "Kill the Director": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXCf6pPjaKw


Scene three specific signals:

* Choose the Mother and end the scene:
Picture: Mother kissing baby: http://hab.hrsa.gov/livinghistory/image ... _child.jpg
Song: The Rolling Stones, "Mother's Little Helper": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cfQ4O7FSH8

* Choose the Maiden and end the scene:
Picture: An Iron Maiden: http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2009/07 ... den2_1.jpg
Song: Crash Test Dummies, "Two Knights and Maidens": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlL4xOaiaNc

* Choose the Crone and end the scene:
Picture: Crone Mask: http://www.maryloubagley.com/img/artwork/crone.jpg
Song: The Crones, "Stuck In Between": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y30yVgEN ... re=related

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

OK, those are some developments. It looks like they've come to the same conclusions logic-wise that I would on camera given the information both advocates provided so, other than the veracity of the information, there's nothing that much to worry about there. Further they seem to be leaning towards the good/neutral option rather than the good/bad option if they do believe the advocates which I believe should be the right choice.

What we can do is confirm that both Bagel Eating Cowfrog and MrJellyLee were innocent. We should be able to use the same symbolism that I prepared during last scene and have them understand what is meant without too much trouble. A white dove in flight indicated innocent so I'd suggest we send them:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1191/776 ... d7d1cc.jpg

which should pretty easily recognized as two white doves in flight meaning both innocent.

What do we think the implications are from two kills during the scene break? All that we're having revealed is alignment and name rather than any role information. Tom Cruise clearly is a Scientologist so we can assume that should probably be a connection between characters and alignments and I would guess probably roles beyond that if there are any. Unless there are connections between Katherine Hepburn and Al Pacino that I don't know about I'm inclined to think that they weren't any sort of linked roles like lovers and that it was two killings we're dealing with.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

So Pooky. Who's scum?

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Yeah, I'm not sure what waiting will accomplish.

That said, I think we should use our time here wisely. I think yesterday was somewhat of a wasted opportunity since the town didn't talk about much other than a KY lynch.

While I'm here... Panzer, if you were on camera, what would you pick?

[Mighty Orbots]

^ PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Why single VP Baltar out there? If I were on camera I and deaths were announced I'd definitely expect those off camera to have learned their alignments. Those on camera seem to be pretty much going with the same assumption. Further, we have been asked to provide alignments for those that died; were I on stage I would have done the same and would be expecting an answer.

Thesp seems to think that there's no reason to send the information about the alignments as we can simply have the stuntman provide it when they get into the game. I'm inclined to think that it would be useful for those on camera to have that information sooner so that they can process it but I'm not the director of Photography.

Talilan apparently missed my doves in flight picture as well as what Thesp had to say when they entered the thread as their posts don't seem to take either into account. I'm inclined to think that those on camera should realize that there isn't a stuntman yet on their own (last scene when a new stuntman was appointed we learned about it on camera; that hasn't happened.) I'm also inclined to think that adding a stuntman to the doves picture is likely to be more confusing than just the doves on their own.

How much we link the lynch today with the information we get from the pictures depends on what our goal is. If we decide to lynch elmosaurian then we should recommend that those on camera make whatever pick we or they think is likely to end up with either a good choice or at least a neutral choice depending on what we believe is more important (being right vs. being more sure we're not wrong.) If we want to have them pick the mother to give us more information about elmosaurian then we should lynch someone else. Mind you, if mother turns out not to be the bad choice I don't think we've actually gained that much information about elmosaurian. If mother is bad then we know to lynch him but if the only reason we're holding off on lynching him is to confirm that then we're being a bit silly.

I'm inclined to make the choices independently. I think that we should lynch whoever we think is most likely to be scum and that the on camera decision should be made in whatever way best tries to avoid the bad choice or make the good choice without relying on assumptions about what whoever we lynch flips.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I think that he's acting about how I would expect to act on camera with the information that I'd have there.

1. I would assume that the alignments of those killed between scenes are revealed. Again, he's certainly not the only one on camera making that assumption and I'm pretty sure it's the reasonable one to make.

2. As I said in my last post we were asked for information about the alignments. I would assume that was coming if I was on camera just like when I made my posts about the birds on camera last scene I expected to get a picture that corresponded with it.

3. I'm not even quite sure what you're referring to with this one. The coroner doing the autopsies maybe? I don't take that to mean that he thinks one particular person is holding things up. I'm not even sure what one person you think is holding things up on our end (Thesp, the Assistant Producer?)

There are actually reasons that we shouldn't be pursuing this particular conversation any further but I don't find that VP Baltar is showing any knowledge that I wouldn't expect him to.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I think yesterday was somewhat of a wasted opportunity since the town didn't talk about much other than a KY lynch.

What else could we really have done? I'm not sure how D2 could have been more productive, it was going to be a waiting game no matter what. The thread's already pretty bloated as it is.

Most of the action in the thread didn't happen until the on-camera crew joined back up. I didn't see a lot of well, anything in the meantime. The only real exception, oddly enough, was Gaspar.

I'm still reticent to post a picture yet, but if they keep whining about the state of the dead I might.

The pictures aren't valuable if they aren't used. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to provide them with information that they need.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

BTW, Panzer and Pooky are lurking hardcore. It really sticks out when there are only 7 of us here.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Also, would anyone mind lynching SL?

Wait what? What's the issue with SL?

Agree with ortolan. Pooky, plz stunt elmosaurian.


-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Everyone on camera now would have known that there was no stuntman as of when they could last access this thread. In scene 2 there was a message on camera when KY Krew had been appointed the stuntman. I assumed there would have been this scene as well though it seems I was wrong (and actually, looking back it seems there wasn't a message when Talilan was made the stuntman in scene 1.) Anyone on stage would have some reason to believe that the stuntman had not been appointed yet to the degree that I expected someone to bring it up prior to when it was.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Yay switch.

I will not be supporting that lynch at all.

Just because someone is universally considered scummy does not make it right.

Where was this thinking yesterday when everyone was foaming at the mouth to lynch KY Krew? You know, the hydra that was universally considered scummy. And what lynch would you support? And why did you wait until just before Pooky stunted elmosaurian back to voice this opinion?

ugh


- PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Damnit, you guys were supposed to switch out the obvscum glork and lynch him. What the hell?

We're lynching the obvscum elmosaurian instead.

Well, except MafiaJin, since Sajin apparently has insights into things that the rest of us mere mortals don't.


-PZ

vote: elmosaurian

[Mighty Orbots]

Oh wow it's elmo. Welcome.

The problem is that this is being framed in terms of "Yos wasn't suspicious enough of KY" or even "Yos thought KY was town" when it's really more like "Yos thinks Door #2 is good even if KY is 99% sure to be scum". I don't believe I've seen a counter-argument.

No. This is what Yos said.

Door #1 would be preferable

if we were confident that KY Krew was not a trustworthy chap and that he had planned all this out, but I don't really know if I believe that right now

. It just seems too obvious, like a setup. I'm leaning towards door #2.

Italicized bit is important. He quite clearly states that he doesn't really believe KY to be scum, even after KY's day 1 shenanigans.

[Mighty Orbots]

^^PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Door #1 would be preferable

if we were confident that KY Krew was not a trustworthy chap

and that he had planned all this out

, but I don't really know if I believe that right now

. It just seems too obvious, like a setup. I'm leaning towards door #2.

Italicized bit is important. He quite clearly states that he doesn't really believe KY to be scum, even after KY's day 1 shenanigans.

I counter your italics with the POWER OF UNDERLINE! I interpret that as he doesn't believe that KY is [scum who specifically planned this all out], which seems reasonable to me.

Holy crap you broke out the heavy artillery.

There's an "and" in there. His theory is based on two bits.

A. KY might be a "trustworthy chap"
B. KY probably didn't plan anything

I don't care about the B part. The A part is my problem. And it answers your earlier post about Yos thinking KY might be town.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

I don't really get why you think any of this is a point against me, PZ.

Because it doesn't jive. Like you said, Day 1 you were all for lynching KY Krew, for all the excellent reasons that (I think) the entire town discussed. Then it's Day 2, you're on stage and suddenly KY may be town. To me it looked like you were trying to save your partner by sowing seeds of doubt, and also trying to win the point by swaying people to Door 2.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Orbots- Can you comment on my last theory? You know - the one where I said that someone was relaying information?

You want me to comment beyond the fact that I think that your case that VP Baltar is receiving extra information isn't convincing and that he's not doing anything out there that I think would take any outside information? Beyond that I think that you're likely reaching too far for what you're getting and if not that there are reasons not to pursue this line of inquiry now (which is what I said before.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

The quoted is Yos saying he doesn't think #3 is correct.

You can get there by thinking KY isn't scum

, or by thinking KY didn't plan this out if he is scum. The latter is what I got from his post, and is probably true.

Yes, exactly, and this is my interpretation of what he said. And since you decided to go down this road of logic, and since my interpretation is one of the possibilities, I'm having a hard time understanding why you don't see my PoV.

Also, I can't help but wonder why something your hydra partner said is "probably true".

It's entirely incorrect to take "KY is town so we should pick #2" from what he actually posted; even if KY is 100% scum, #2 is probably the best choice.

It's not, you just came to this as a possible conclusion above.

And I don't know what scumYos was doing. I've given my best guess - bussing for townie cred and then trying to save his partner? Maybe he saw that KY was stuntman and wanted a repeat performance the next day? I have no idea. All I know is that his read inexplicably went from sure-fire scum to possible confused townie in the space of a night.


-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

The on-stage decision is tricky.

Figured Troll would answer this one since he's paying more attention to the on-screen stuff, but I'll throw this in.

I don't know if it's circular or not. If it is then the puzzle is much harder. Let me respond with a question: If two confirmed town were advocates, and the alphabet was circular, would the puzzle be possible to solve?

elmosaurian avoided sotty/MafiaJin's question.

Panzer and sotty need to contribute. Thesp is still V/LA for the weekend so I'm guessing we'll get something from that quarter tomorrow.


-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Because 1) your attack is based on one interpretation while acknowledging the other as at least equally likely; 2) the principle of charity; 3) the other interpretation is much more consistent with his stance on KY elsewhere, for example in 291.

1. I think the other interpretation is much less likely because of the context of all this.
2. Lawl, no. This is Mafia, not a debate. There are parties who are deliberately lying to us.
3. Or not, for example (iso) 31, 43, 61

Would you dispute that it is probably true? It seems kind of obvious to me, although obviously there's no proof.

Obviously I'm disputing that it's probably true. I just think it's weird that you'd classify something your

hydra partner

said as "probably true".

My problem here is that you're just throwing your hands up and saying "ooh, it's inexplicable" instead of debating the merit of

what he said

, which is not only entirely intelligible but makes perfect sense. And there is this constant weasel-wording of "possible" when even 99% certain still leaves some rational possibility of being wrong. How

likely

did he actually say it was that KY was town?

He went from saying KY was "caught scum" to not being sure. It doesn't make perfect sense, it doesn't make sense at all. It's not like KY started acting uber town or was suddenly really helpful or something. All that happened was that Yos got on camera, looked around, and suddenly started saying "well gee guys, maybe we should rethink all this."


- PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

It looks like there is some confusion about exactly what curiouskarmadog's information would imply going on here. I said towards the start of the day that I agreed with the conclusions that those on camera were coming to if they believed both advocates' information to be true. What I had in mind was the one given in this post where they came up with the following two possibilities:

Crone: Bad
Maiden: Neutral
Mother: Good

or

Crone: Good
Maiden: Bad
Mother: Neutral

Those on camera didn't actually use the same set of assumptions to get there (though both paths do lead to that result), the difference being as follows.

curiouskarmadog does assume that the alphabet is cyclic and thus his information of the bad not being the one that directly precedes the good alphabetically leaves him those two choices as well as the other cycle going in the same direction: Crone - Neutral, Maiden - Good, Mother - Bad which is then discarded because of elmosaurian's information.

ShadowLurker also worked through the problem and agrees with his results though his interpretation of curiouskarmadog's information is that it simply tells us that the bad choice does not immediate precede the good choice alphabetically (ignoring some of the grammar in the way curiouskarmadog is phrasing things.) That assumption actually left the four options:

Crone: Good
Maiden: Bad
Mother: Neutral

Crone: Good
Maiden: Neutral
Mother: Bad

Crone: Neutral
Maiden: Good
Mother: Bad

Crone: Bad
Maiden: Neutral
Mother: Good

In that case, elmosaurian's information rules out the middle two as those are the options where the mother is bad.

I'd have to be able to talk to curiouskarmadog a bit more to figure out which of the two options I think is actually the case for his message but since they combined to give the same set of results with elmosaurian's I wasn't overly concerned.

I suppose that it's possible that Talilan's more restrictive recent interpretation is the case but that would be a bit surprising. I would expect both advocates to get approximately the same amount of information. If both are lying then it's silly to try to judge one against the other (and everything analysis-wise I'm doing falls apart anyhow) but assuming that at least one of the two advocates is telling the truth it's likely that the other, if lying, would mold their information to largely match the other set of information (which they could guess because they knew what information they were molding to start with.) Given that elmosaurian's information (mother is not bad) leaves 4 options (it only rules out the two permutations where mother is bad and there are 6 permutations to start with) I would expect that his original information probably left 4 options as well. That would seem to indicate that we should expect about the same level of information from curiouskarmadog which would mean that leaving either 3 or more likely 4 options is what should be expected rather than just leaving 2.

It strikes me as pretty reasonable that one advocate would get information that leaves 4 options with the other getting information that leaves either 3 or more likely 4 options which combine to leave the sort of two option situation we've got with one safe choice (good/neutral) and one risky choice (good/bad). We don't know exactly what information the advocate got in scene 2 so we've lost a bit of the basis that we might use to judge this. Perhaps the information from the advocates is supposed to combine to give us a single unambiguous correct answer (in which case Talilan's interpretation becomes more attractive) but that feels off.

There's a lot of speculation involved no matter what we're doing without being able to get more clarification from curiouskarmadog. As we don't have access to him my inclination is to let those on camera make the decision themselves based on whether or not they believe one or more of the advocates were lying about what they were told.

I'd rather send a green light after the lynch than a pro-maiden signal (or pro-mother or pro-crone.) We don't have anti-choice signals set up so we can't conveniently say don't pick the mother even if we wanted to (which, again, I don't think that we would.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

I'm still reticent to post a picture yet, but if they keep whining about the state of the dead I might.

The pictures aren't valuable if they aren't used. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to provide them with information that they need.

True - how important do you think it was (now) to have communicated this particular info about the dead being innocent? Is there anything in particular that would make someone say, "Aha! I have scum now!" If someone was indeed not Innocent-aligned who had died, that would be useful, but I'm skeptical that such information is critical to their on-stage selection at this time.

It's not important now, since Pooky's already done it, obv.

I dunno how important it would have been

then

tho. It seemed like people needed that info for something, and I'm not in their heads, so for all I know those flips just may have helped someone determine who scum was. I think what's important is to let the on-camera group decide what they need and for us off-stage to deliver, not for us to decide what they need. Also they're just as aware of our 2-shot limits as we are so I'm sure that entered into their thinking when they asked.

Anyway this is moot now.

As I'm reading the back-and-forth on elmosaurian2, I'm not wild about an elmosaurian2 lynch. At all.

So you have a town read on them then?

[Mighty Orbots]

Of course KY was going to die on day 2; that was a given. You really think anything me expressing some vauge doubts was an attempt to SAVE him? Seriously?

No, of course not; that's part of the reason KY obviously had to be lynched on day 2, and part of the reason I would have voted to lynch him if I was off-stage, because we couldn't take that chance.

Jeez Yos you're not making any sense. If it was a given that KY was going to die, what was the point of expressing doubt? Why would you have been all for lynching someone that you decided might be town? Yes, your play Day 2 was inexplicable, and no, I'm not following your thought process here at all.

Let me ask you this: Why do you think you were the only one to question KY's likely scummitude? Why do you feel other players besides myself expressed surprise by your play on camera Day 2? Why don't you think you got any traction with the feeling when you expressed it in thread?

@Thesp: Why didn't you revote Panzer if that's the way you want to go?


- PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

I am a bit perplexed by what sottyrulez is driving at here as I think that it's pretty clear that there's a difference between the mother not being the bad choice and knowing that she's the good choice (and hence knowing that she's the best choice.)

I'd also like to see how one would get that mother is the correct choice based on curiouskarmadog's information alone.

For that matter I'd like to see how Ortolan came to the conclusion that crone is the clear choice (Gaspar has given one way to get to that idea in the on camera thread) but I'd be surprised if that's what Ortolan had in mind.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Now that brings up something I'd forgotten.

Why do people think that curiouskarmadog ended up on stage. It seems to me that it should be absolutely clear but apparently it isn't for everyone. He says he didn't put himself on his list. Does that change people's opinions at all? Why or why not?

For signals for the next scene do we need anything more complicated than:

Push the Button and end scene:
Picture: Push Button, Receive Bacon: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/207/5006 ... 65.jpg?v=0
Song: Fatboy Slim, "Because We Can": http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=e ... K3oA-Gg5-A

Don't Push the Button and end scene:
Picture: No Button: http://rlv.zcache.com/no_symbol_univers ... sj_400.jpg
Song: Patsy Cline, "Crazy": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-wJNpWg ... re=related

I'd actually just expect to give a green light/Closing Time for the scene but we might as well have the signals for choices ready.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

The Green Light/Closing Time signal from off stage is not meant to express any off stage preference for one choice over any others. It only means that the lynch has been completed (or possibly that those off stage have agreed that a no lynch is a better idea or something else) and that those on camera can proceed with their decision without worrying about ending things prematurely for those off stage.

Each scene there have been specific signals that indicate that those off stage think that one particular choice is better. I don't know how they might come about such a conclusion but we've got the ability to express it if they do. Unless one of them is given those on camera shouldn't assume that those off stage are favoring any particular choice.

If anyone has suggestions for additional or revised signals they should feel free to make them. I'm the one that's been setting them up because I think that having our means of communication clearly established is beneficial. We don't actually have to listen to what I have to say.

As for curiouskarmadog being on camera during scene two it seems that only sottyrulez sees what should in my opinion be clear to everyone.

The scum choose the advocates. curiouskarmadog was an advocate. Thus the scum chose curiouskarmadog as an advocate causing him to be on stage. It should have nothing to do with his list of choices and whether they ran out or not. I suppose I could see a few people not being clear on that but it felt like the majority of the people who expressed an opinion weren't understanding that mechanic which is discouraging. This isn't a particularly simple game but we've been given a good amount of information about how the structure works and we should be aware of that and using it to the best of our ability to do so.

For example, when I say "We're at +1 now and further, we now have explicit reason to believe that the number matters." that should mean something in particular to each of you.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

The green light is more versatile than just saying that a lynch has taken place. As we don't get information from the lynch until after the scene is over anyhow those on camera don't actually need to know when the lynch is done. What they do need to know is when those off stage are done with whatever they feel needs to be completed and are ready for those on camera to finish the scene.

Further, there should be no confusion about the green light. It's been explicitly stated what it means since the start. There's no reason that people can't keep track of what our prearranged signals are supposed to mean.

If those off camera have a reason to think that one option in particular is the right way to go for the scene there's no reason for them not convey that to those on camera. Those on camera can choose to follow the advice or not. I also don't see how those on camera knowing if those off stage think that one choice in particular is the correct one is going to stop us from finding scum.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Well, first off there really isn't any reason for those on camera to suddenly switch to whatever those off stage have said to do. I've seen the reasons that people in this game have been giving for thing and quite frankly, while I'll take the opinions of those off stage into consideration I'm not just going to assume that they're right if I've got a reason to think otherwise.

We've also got everything that went into the debate before the signal from off stage came. People should be staking out their opinions on the issue throughout the scene; in some ways that's the main thing that those on camera are there to do and avoiding that responsibility in the hopes that they'll get a signal from outside is scummy. If people are staking out positions and then make the switch just based on what they know those off stage think without being able to hear any of their reasons (and the signals certainly don't contain any reasons) then you've got scummy behavior.

In your analogy it'd be the voters who switched to Bush post-signal after having been saying that they were leaning Obama and giving reasons pre-signal as well as the voters who hadn't taken a stance at all but then were quick to vote push that would be scummy for reasons we wouldn't even have seen if it weren't for the signal being sent. Those that wash their hands because they got to agree with the off stage information shouldn't look any better because they've done it.

If you're not wrong you're at the very last oversimplifying.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Did we have good reason to think the way we were thinking before Talilan piped in? No. We distrusted Elmo for the same reasons that you Off-Stage lynched him. So when I hear that nobody Off-Stage believes in Elmo and we don't either why should we have listened to what he had to say and vote the Mother?

Talilan's showing up on stage is a whole other can of worms. He (as it was Ortolan making the post) didn't just give you a pre-arranged signal that something had happened (off stage we were ready for you to finish or off stage we had decided that something was the right choice and we were ready for you to finish.) What he did was give a detailed post with arguments meant to back up what he was saying.

I'm talking about why we should continue to arrange signals that let those on camera know what those off stage think the correct choice is while actually following the rules.

You have come up with an interestingly defensive misinterpretation of what I'm saying though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

If those off stage decide that one of the choices is probably the correct one I'd like them to have a way to express it. If they choose to do so we'll be able to take a look afterwords and see if it was justified. Basically it's a signal I could see them wanting to send and I want to prepare as many of those as possible (staying within the realm of the reasonable) so that if we end up trying to communicate it's as unambiguous as possible.

Those on camera need to do one thing each scene: make a decision. If they're working on who the scum is additionally that's great but the decision is what controls when the scene is over and what sort of end game setup we're going to be working with. That decision is the thing that those off stage are most likely to need to communicate to them about. If we never use a signal from off stage to pick a particular option then so be it; we won't have been hurt by setting them up ahead of time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Damnit, you guys were supposed to switch out the obvscum glork and lynch him. What the hell?

We're lynching the obvscum elmosaurian instead.

BIG RED X.

While knowing his alignment might be influencing my read, elmosaurian's posts were coming from a genuine perspective. That post is completely encouraging groupthink and stifling discussion.

No. I wanted to lynch elmosaurian Day 1 and didn't get a chance to until Day 3. His Day 2 onscreen shenanigans only convinced me of his guilt even further. Why would I want to lynch Glork instead?

And yes, your 20/20 hindsight is lol.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

One thing I thought was really important to note is how a few people mentioned sending KY Krew onstage in the midst of him being one of the highest vote getters! WTF! That was horrible. MightyOrbots did it in 254, Thok says it in 272, and there were possibly others mentions of it. Did you guys talk about this later? Because that was really really scummy, especially now that we know KY was scum.

I don't think that we ever did talk about that later. It could be a reasonable topic I suppose. Why was it that Gaspar brought it up as something that was either an option or explicitly something he desired in posts 240, 244, and 256 right around then? I think I can guess at the motivation but I don't mind hearing your take. I know that I expressed my reasons for wanting to consider a switch when I brought it up in 254 but it'd be fine to talk about it if people would like.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Although, why did you want KY specifically to send the message to them? Was it role related? I wasn't sure. Could you have sent someone else?

That's probably part of the source of confusion there. KY Krew was the only one that could be sent. He had the stuntman job at the time. We can only send one person per scene and it has to be the stuntman (currently there is no stuntman; the assistant producer should assign one after the scene has started.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Talilan and GoofballsandBalloons have been pushing on you from the start of the game and posting in that style. I've become accustomed enough to their pushing from you, that it's not out of the ordinary for them. However, from Orbots, who I had a town read on Scene 1, it is inconsistent with his past behavior, and raised skepticism of him.

Oh FFS. I just explained this to you, so you ignore it and continue parroting the idea anyway?

I HAD A CASE ON ELMO EARLY DAY 1. HERE, L@@K.

Then I got the flu and Troll took over. When I got back I was stuck on stage day 2 while Yos was going through his bizarre KY gyrations. So then I went back to him on day 3. You're trying really hard to paint this picture that I went after a wounded duck when I was the one who shot him first. Ignore my crappy metaphor plz.

[Mighty Orbots]

So, one other bit of business.

Troll's decided to leave the Mighty Orbots hydra. We've been butting heads quite a bit in our QT thread about various things and we haven't really been able to resolve our issues. I think it's due mainly to our vastly different playstyles really; I'm kind of a "hey let's push this button and see what happens lulz" kind of guy while he's more of a "here's our 97 step plan for success" kind of guy.

Since our off-off-camera shenanigans were draining the fun of the game for him I'll taking over MO full time from this point on. It's a pretty big loss for all of us imo but we'll manage. Many thanks to Troll for putting up with me this long and hopefully we can do better in the future.

-PZ

[Mighty Orbots]

Reading, brb.

[Mighty Orbots]

Talilan -

That's really bad reasoning, Ms. Fisher. You're saying he's a Decepticon for advocating the correct choice - when he gave ample, logical reasoning for doing so? We also gave that reasoning when we were on break, are we scum too?

This seems like a really bad excuse to lead us astray. My good guy read of you has been shot to hell. Ugh.

You never did respond to this.

DGB needs to die.

Did you come to this conclusion based on the chart, or something else?

Still reading through, this is making my head hurt.

[Mighty Orbots]

Orbots, for the record, your thoughts on DGB?...gaspar?...starkiss?

- If I were to go just based on actions in game, I'd say DGB is scum. My problem is that I've never seen scum be so blatant. I've never played with DGB before, have any of you? Anyone know if the way she's playing here is normal?
- I think Gaspar is town
- My current working theory is that Talilan and Starkiss are scum together:

Yesterday Ms. Fisher made an unexpected cameo which pushed several to make the wrong choice. To me the move was strikingly similar to the one made by a different Ms. Fisher a few days ago. The difference was that the ploy worked this time. Also I'm pretty convinced that the appearance was deliberate because of the content in the message.

Also yesterday, Mr. Lewis was the first to vote for the wrong choice, even before being given the green light. Then he completely disappeared into the background. I think the disappearance was intentional to avoid the barrage of questions he received after making his choice.

Now today we see them both advocating for the same choice yet again, right off the bat, even though there's no outside information for us and no reason to back one choice versus the other at this point. I'm having a hard time believing this is all coincidence.

I not sure what it means that Starkiss managed to veer back to the correct choice.

[Mighty Orbots]

Sorry, meant to say Talilan veered, not Starkiss.

---

Fortunately I had sotty's table in cache. Bold is bad, underline is good:

Player: Scene one, Scene two, Scene three, Scene four

Gaspar: X, X, Did not vote, Voted push
Talian:

Follow Wiggin KY Krew stunt vote

,

Picked door 1

, X,

Voted not to push

Pooky: X, Did not vote, Voted crone, Voted push
Orbots: X,

Picked door 1

, X, Voted push
Thok: X,

Picked door1

, Did not vote,

Voted not to push

Starkiss:

Follow Wiggin

, X, Voted crone, Voted push
Sottyrulez: Did not vote, X, X,

Voted not to push

GaB: X, X, Voted crone, Did not vote
Panzer/Zu Faul:

Follow Wiggin

, X, X, Voted push
Hewitt: Did not vote, X, Voted Crone, X
VP:

Follow Wiggin

, X, Voted crone, X
CKD:

Follow Wiggin

, Did not vote,

Voted Mother good choice?

, X
Mafiajin: Did not vote,

Picked door 1

, X, X
SL: X, Did not vote, Did not vote, X
Thesp: Did not vote, X, X, X

Tags removed. Use bold only for voting. - Mod

[Mighty Orbots]

actions speak louder than words with a DGB alt.

? It can't be that simple. Examples?

[Mighty Orbots]

Dammit mith. Italics is bad, underline is good:

Player: Scene one, Scene two, Scene three, Scene four

Gaspar: X, X, Did not vote,

Voted push

Talian:

Follow Wiggin KY Krew stunt vote

,

Picked door 1

, X,

Voted not to push

Pooky: X, Did not vote,

Voted crone

,

Voted push

Orbots: X,

Picked door 1

, X,

Voted push

Thok: X,

Picked door1

, Did not vote,

Voted not to push

Starkiss:

Follow Wiggin

, X,

Voted crone

,

Voted push

Sottyrulez: Did not vote, X, X,

Voted not to push

GaB: X, X,

Voted crone

, Did not vote
Panzer/Zu Faul:

Follow Wiggin

, X, X,

Voted push

Hewitt: Did not vote, X,

Voted Crone

, X
VP:

Follow Wiggin

, X,

Voted crone

, X
CKD:

Follow Wiggin

, Did not vote,

Voted Mother good choice?

, X
Mafiajin: Did not vote,

Picked door 1

, X, X
SL: X, Did not vote, Did not vote, X
Thesp: Did not vote, X, X, X

[Mighty Orbots]

Sotty:

DGB needs to die.

Did you come to this conclusion based on the chart, or something else?

Still reading through, this is making my head hurt.

Plz respond.

[Mighty Orbots]

Orbots, I would recommend re-reading scene 4.

.... so your answer is "Not just the table, Mr. Orbots, but her play in general" ??

I don't understand why you refuse to give a straight answer.

[Mighty Orbots]

<3 elvis

I don't understand how you can't comprehend that the question has already been answered in scene 4. It should be obvious that I suspected her, and why I suspected her. (Even though I didn't exlicitely say until now "hey, I am suspicious of DGB")

So yeah. Am I really going to have to spell it all out again?

You posted "DGB must die" directly after your chart, making me think that your conclusion was based primarily on the chart. I was trying to get clarification. I'm not sure why you're being so antagonistic about this.

---

We should be careful about how we interpret that chart, and this is what I was vetting with sotty. It's easy to say that someone with a really bad voting record (Pooky) is likely scum, but wouldn't someone with a stellar voting record (Talilan) also be iffy since the scum know the correct choice? Or how about someone with no record at all (ShadowLurker)?

[Mighty Orbots]

actions speak louder than words with a DGB alt.

? It can't be that simple. Examples?

(rolls eyes)

I would have to dig...not being able to track posts now would make that harder.....

if you really want to see them..I can pull...but I EXPECT that you read them and give me a full report for my work.

I'm getting a lot of rolled eyes today.

If you want to support your point you'll need examples. If you want to drop the point that's fine too. It's your choice. I'll read whatever you give me, I always do.

[Mighty Orbots]

Orbots are you scum, or are you extremely confused, or are you both? (more likely)

That's funny, I was thinking the same about you.

Here, let me remove the pronouns from the post so that you can't possibly (intentionally?) misunderstand it again:

That's really bad reasoning, Ms. Fisher. You're saying {Gaspar is} a Decepticon for advocating the correct choice - when {Gaspar} gave ample, logical reasoning for doing so? {Mighty Orbots} also gave that reasoning when {Mighty Orbots} were on break, are {Mighty Orbots} scum too?

This seems like a really bad excuse to lead {the town} astray. {Mighty Orbots'/Papa Zito's} good guy read of {Talilan} has been shot to hell. Ugh.

I have not backtracked. I have given the benefit of the doubt that you were confused about the post, so I clarified. You didn't respond after I clarified, so no, you haven't responded to the post. Also, my town read of you wasn't shot to hell just because of this, it was initially damaged by your posting mishap.

[1]The attacks against myself are all scummy so save yourself the trouble of forcing me to lynch you because we all know we've been very explicitly pro-town the whole game ([2]boasting a 3-3 correct voting record in the on-stage which few can match). [3]Whoever attacks us just gives themselves away as scum so I suggest you don't.

Okay this part of the post is gold.

1. There's no reason a pro-town player wouldn't attack attack you for something you did. Scumhunting another player to solidify a read isn't scummy at all. I can't believe someone of your caliber(s) would say something like this. It's like you're attempting to justify an OMGUS position.
2. I find your 3/3 record frankly suspicious. Only the scum know what the correct choice is, and somehow only you have made all the correct choices.
3. Scare tactics don't help the town.

[Mighty Orbots]

Talilan -

Basically, I was assuming Gaspy is scum.

At the beginning of the scene, in post 579, he said "don't push the button", which was why I still mistakenly believed that was his choice even though he apparently amended it later.

Last scene he continually insisted on the correct choice of action even when everyone was voting against it.

(emphasis mine)

My problem with your post is that he didn't

baselessly

insist on the correct choice. He gave ample evidence, in thread on

why

it was the correct choice. The ample evidence was his post 22 that I directed you to. There's absolutely nothing wrong with him going against the majority of the town when he's posted a proof why the decision they are advocating (you were advocating!) is false. That you're trying to paint him as scum for doing so is horribly scummy. What am I missing here?

Also, Troll is a far better player than I am, regardless of alignment, so all that goes without saying.

One final thought. This:

(after all, if he's town, he shouldn't be getting it right all the time anyway).

we've been very explicitly pro-town the whole game ([2]boasting a 3-3 correct voting record in the on-stage which few can match)

is lol.

[Mighty Orbots]

Lots of great content here. A couple follow-up questions.

We were pretty clear why we think GaB needs to go on stage but here is a handy break down:

[1]-She was the main reason Crone was picked in scene three.
[2]-Scene 4 she sat back refusing to commit on a 50/50 choice for the town. Her reasoning was to let the scum go first so she can chose. Weak

1. This is interesting. I've been arguing that Talilan's mispost was the main catalyst for the move from Mother to Crone. Why do you disagree?
2. Let's assume DGB is scum for the moment. What advantage do you see in her hanging back and not voting instead of laying a vote and ensuring the bad choice was picked?

Hi. I was the one (Sotty) who posted the chart and what have you, Zach did the rest of the posting yesterday and he is defo the more forceful of the two of us. This is pretty much true to his meta. I'm pretty sure I have answered your question now. If not, let me know.

No, that was fantastic, thank you.

[Mighty Orbots]

MO I still don't know what "22" means, sorry.

Wow really?

1. Open the on-camera thread.
2. Scroll your browser all the way to the bottom
3. In the All Users box choose Gaspar
4. Click Go
5. Scroll down to the post labelled Post Subject: 22
6. ??
7. Profit?

[Mighty Orbots]

Grumpgrump

I have a post to make but I can't since I'm through a proxy at the moment and proxies mangle URLs. It'll have to wait until tonight when I get home.

Grumpgrump.

[Mighty Orbots]

I promised this post last night, I know, but I went home and then I went to sleep. >_>

And the list goes on. Literally go back and re-read the scene, as soon as the problem is worked out the GaB hydra goes into over drive talking about the trust of the advocates, building it up slowly until she can't stop talking about the Crone. She was pushing the Crone from the get go, dirtying our two advocates along the way. One we now know is town and one I think is very likely town.

This is ALL before Talilan makes the mispost.

So, as requested, I did go back and re-read the scene, and it was largely how I remembered. I'm back behind the damn proxy again so I'll have to use post numbers instead of links.

337 - Thok likes Mother
338 - SL agrees, likes Mother
351 - VP Baltar likes Mother
367 - CKD reiterates Mother
387 - Gaspar wants Mother
419 - hewitt not sure, leans Mother
437 - GaB wants Crone
441 - Gaspar for Mother
463 - Shadowlurker wants to vote Mother
471 - CKD is iffy, leaning Crone
474 - CKD switches to Mother (?)
476 - hewitt wants to pick Mother
477 - VP Baltar wants Crone
493 - SL pseudovotes Mother

--- 494 (Hewitt) is just after Talilan's post. At this point, the majority are for voting Mother - Shadowlurker, CKD, hewitt, Gaspar. Only GaB and VP Baltar are for Crone.

501 - hewitt switches to Crone
510 - Gaspar's big logic post, reiterates Mother
520 - Starkiss

votes

Crone

---green light---
541 - VP Baltar votes Crone
542 - hewitt votes Crone

etc

Point being, the town strongly leaned in favor of Mother before the post, and attitude switched afterwards.

Agreed on CKD btw.

I think she was positioning herself to hammer the bad choice because if anyone can spin it, she can. I also think she wasn't anticipating being called out for this behavior which is why she ended up NOT voting. Something I can't excuse.

Well she was in position to hammer but didn't. Why not? Are you satisfied with her explanation?

I also forgot another point about how when we spoke about holding the people who voted the Crone responsible for the bad choice she was extremely quick to point her finger at Hewitt. Not cool seeing as how it is clear she was a MAJOR driving force behind the choice.

Again, I'd argue Talilan was more of a driving force, for what I said above. VP Baltar also drove the choice much of the day. It

is

kinda weird that she'd espouse Crone all day and then not vote once the green light was given, but ultimately I think Talilan was more responsible.

[Mighty Orbots]

PZ: Gaspar was scummy for his choice in the Crone/Maiden etc. scene because he said "...Mother was so obviously the correct choice". Whatever you say, it was not "so obviously the correct choice" at all. See my posts reasoning out the best solution for why there was a good chance it was Crone also. Certainly not enough to justify it being "so obviously the Mother", especially with the ambiguous nature of the hint elmosaurian was given. Either way that's certainly not a basis for your "town read of someone being shot to pieces".

- ortolan

Again, that once incident was not the main basis of my town read being shot to pieces. The critical mispost is.

What do you think is more likely? That scum would know the worst choice and advocate for the best one to look good, or that they would push for the worst to get endgame advantage?

I think it depends on the individual scum player. Some scum players may prefer to look ultra-townie, and vote the good choice every time. Some may want to lurk moar, and choose not to vote. Some may be brash, and look to be 50/50 enough in people's minds not to be in danger of lynch but also explain why they haven't been NKed; they would be more likely to push bad choices. It's situational too though... if scum get far enough behind in points they would probably have to throw caution to the wind. Or if there are lots of scum onstage at some point, maybe they'd be more inclined to push a bad choice.

My point was that the chart is a great tool but shouldn't be the basis for a read, just one part of it.

[Mighty Orbots]

readreadreadread

[Mighty Orbots]

Poor elvis.

I think Pooky was a mercy killing. Well not really but wow.

I'm going to go back and look at things in Pooky-is-scum context. Though if I remember right he didn't leave many tracks so I'm not sure how useful this will be.

[Mighty Orbots]

Still working on my big post.

Orbots, I would like to hear your thoughts on the fact I didnt put you on stage...AND you were chosen as an advocate.

Well, I don't know if it's a

fact

that you didn't put me there...

But I think you answered your own question really. We know the scum get to pick an advocate, but they won't necessarily know who all is going to be in the scene. So I'm guessing whoever they pick is forced in if they aren't supposed to be present already.

Am I lying and put you there?

That's the easier explanation.

Any thoughts why you were chosen as an advocate?

If the above theory is true, my best guess is to cut off communication between threads. If not I guess it was to throw suspicion in my direction.

Also and open question to everyone, if Scum doesnt get to see a list of who is going on stage, before the scene starts.....I would like to hear theories on how they assign advocates...

I would imagine they PM mith and say "We'd like X to be the advocate."

[Mighty Orbots]

One other thing I really need to address, and it keeps slipping my mind.

Mighty Orbots & VP Baltar and anyone else who thinks our mispost could have been intentional

This is really amazing me. Let me get this straight. Are you guys saying that you think we intentionally posted in the wrong thread, and that it was a strategic scum move. Because that is what I keep reading, but I can't actually believe it. You are accusing us of intentional cheating in this game. If you're town and you're serious, please consider the ramifications to the reputations of 2 established mafiascum members. If you're scum, this kind of strategy is really not cool.

Don't dance around it, because if I'm being accused of cheating I want it expressed openly. If you're not willing to say, "Talilan, I think you intentionally cheated in this game", then do me a favour and acknowledge that mistakes happen, and although we made a big one, it could've happened to anyone.

I didn't think of it that way. You're absolutely right. I apologize.

Ok, back to big post.

[Mighty Orbots]

HADOUKEN

curiouskarmadog

KY Krew

- Only mention before his lynch was a "what if he's town?" post.
- Was on-screen for lynch.

CKD was on-screen both Scenes 1 and 2 so to be fair he didn't really have much of a chance to weigh in on the issue. It's unfortunate that he wasn't forced to between scenes.

Rawr/Pooky

- 0 mention of Rawr.
- Iso 25: lists Pooky as neutral.
- A few posts regarding screen placement.
- Iso 168: hewitt, Pooky vote is useless

Almost no mention of Pooky at all. Iso 168 could be subtle defense. This looks rather bad.

In context with the whole SMG thing, CKD is scummy.

GoofballsAndBaloons (DrippingGoofball/BridgesAndBaloons)

KY Krew

- Iso 9: calls out KY for lurking.
- Iso 14: reiterates.
- Iso 15: Calls out KY's ShadowLurker vote.
-

Iso 17: Votes KY Krew

- Iso 18: Attempts to put KY at top of Condorcet list (broken tag)
- Iso 20: calls KY scum
- Iso 21: KY pressure
- Iso 32: More KY pressure
- Was on the KY lynch wagon

If DGB is scum with KY then she bussed him just unmercilessly and I hope I'm never scum with her, because damn. lol Really this just looks like she caught a scent early and ran with it.

Rawr/Pooky

- Iso 33: Calls out Rawr for lurking
- A few posts about Pooky being teh funnay guy
- Iso 150: 85% chance of rainbows (lulz)
- Iso 246: Not willing to lynch Pooky
- Iso 277: Gut town read on Pooky
- Iso 286: Pooky was pro-town

It's kinda weird that GaB doesn't go after Rawr with the same gusto as she did KY, even though they were playing similarly. She never wavers from a Pooky = town stance.

However, given KY, it's hard to see her as scum. So leaning town here.

Sidenote: Whatever happened to the Bridges half of this hydra?

hewitt

KY Krew

- Was on-screen Scene 1
- Iso 8: Calls out KY for staying silent when called upon to participate
- Iso 10: States he will "nail [KY Krew] when they get Off-Camera"
- Iso 13: Votes Panzer
- Iso 14: Agrees with a KY lynch

This is really interesting. Hewitt stays remarkably quiet on the KY issue, basically just saying that he'll deal with KY once KY is stunted back in. But when this happens, he doesn't question KY and

doesn't even vote him

. Instead he stays on Panzer. This really looks like deflection to me.

Rawr/Pooky

- 0 mention of Rawr.
- Iso 41: Says he's tired of Pooky not doing anything
- Iso 60: Wants Pooky off-stage to lynch him
- Iso 64: Pooky is high on his scum list
- Iso 77: Moar Pooky lynching
-

Iso 94: Votes Pooky

- Iso 96: Pooky's wagon isn't going anywhere, but he can't live to endgame
- Several Pooky can't live, is a wild card posts.

Hewitt was anti-Pooky the entire time. What's kinda odd is that he changes his stance on his is 94 vote post from "Pooky is scum" to "Pooky is a wildcard". Also I don't see him trying to convince the town to lynch Pooky, he just repeats that Pooky needs to be lynched over and over. Ironically, when given the chance, he instead hammers Gaspar.

I'm thinking Hewitt is scum.

ShadowLurker

KY Krew

-

Iso 5: Votes KY Krew

-

Iso 9: Votes KY Krew

again as part of a Condorcet
-

Iso 13: Votes KY Krew

yet again lol. Says KY's responses are unsatisfactory and illogical
- Questions/responses related to KY Krew
- Iso 24: KY Krew pressure
- Was on-screen during Scene 2.

The revotes are great, I just wonder why ShadowLurker chose to wait so long to attempt to interact with KY directly.

Rawr/Pooky

- Iso 9: Rawr is #2 on Condorcet
- Iso 11: Rawr needs to start posting
- Iso 13: Rawr is #3 on Condorcet
- Iso 23: Rawr returns to #2, calls out lack of Condorcet votes
- Iso 31: Pseudo Condorcet votes Pooky #2
- Iso 36: Wants Pooky lynched. Notes the Crone vote
- Iso 42: Blasts Pooky for anti-town statements
- Iso 57: Pooky needs to die ASAP
- Iso 59: Pooky's contributions seem opportunistic

I like a lot of this, both because ShadowLurker is consistent and also because she gives good reasons for her read (36, 42). Contrast hewitt.

Pretty townie here.

sottyrulez (Sotty7/Zachrulez)

KY Krew

- Was on-screen Scene 1
- Iso 3: KY needs to explain pronto
- Iso 4: Lists KY as probable scum
- Iso 5: Wants KY pulled as soon as possible
-

Iso 11: Votes KY Krew

- Iso 12: Condorcet votes KY Krew #1
- Iso 13: Today's lynch is KY Krew.

Votes KY Krew

- Iso 14: Again states the lynch is KY Krew
-

Iso 17: Votes KY Krew

No issues here, really.

Rawr/Pooky

- Lists Rawr Hydra as likely town
- Iso 71: Accuses Pooky of fearmongering
- Iso 81: Leaning scum on Pooky

Not a lot here, oddly enough.

The two in combination leave sotty as slightly town. I like the KY Krew stuff a lot but the lack of posts on Pooky is kinda odd.

StarKiss (Starbuck/Kise/dramonic)

KY Krew

- Was on-camera Scene 1
- Iso 6: Believes KY is 3rd party
- Iso 10: Condorcet votes KY #1

Very sparse. I'm not thrilled about the 3rd party speculation.

Rawr/Pooky

- 0 mention of Rawr Hydra.
- Iso 39: Lists Pooky towards the bottom of a scumlist
- Iso 52: Pooky seems to have vanished.

The lack of anything regarding Pooky seems deliberate. He mentioned a couple times that they should wait for Pooky to chime in on something, but never condemned him for not participating and also never addressed him directly. It looks especially bad combined with the lack of KY postings.

StarKiss is scummy.

Talilan (Talitha/ortolan)

KY Krew

- Was on-stage much of Scene 1 (stunted back)
- Iso 18: KY Krew is "very, very scummy"
- Iso 24: Scumteam list, with KY
- Iso 34: Says KY confirmed scum
- Iso 60: KY is obv-scum
- Iso 63: ^^^
- Iso 84: Ky will be lynched
- Iso 97: Obviously KY is scum, and today's lynch

Absolutely no issues here. Talilan consistently advocates KY's lynch and backs that up with good reasoning.

Rawr/Pooky

- Iso 31: Likes Rawr's posting
- Iso 44: Pushes Rawr for a vote
- A few Pooky stunting posts
- Iso 197: Pooky's voting record is terrible, makes him likely scum
- Iso 234: Not enough Pooky text
- Iso 238: Pooky may be scum, may not be
- Iso 245: (joke post as scum) Wants to NK Pooky
- Iso 251: Pooky is delectable?
- Iso 265: Bets Pooky was town

As good as Talilan's KY posts were, the Rawr/Pooky ones were pretty bad. Thinking Pooky was town isn't a crime (though I'm not sure why someone would) but the waffling back and forth on his alignment doesn't sit right with me at all. If Talilan's read was that mixed, then there should have been some questions Pooky's way to solidify that read.

So this is similar to GaB.

Thesp

KY Krew

- Was on-camera Scene 1
- Iso 4: KY is definitely scum
- Iso 7: Condorcet votes KY
-

Iso 12: Votes KY Krew

Not a lot here, but he was on the wagon, so.

Rawr/Pooky

- 0 mention Rawr Hydra
- Iso 33: is "uncomfortable" with Pooky's posts
- Iso 52: Doesn't like Pooky's voting record
- Iso 53: Pooky needs to die

Again, not a lot here.

Thesp really is the big unknown this game. :/

Thok

KY Krew

- Iso 3: Lists KY Krew at #2 in Condorcet
- Iso 11: Finds the "inHim half scummier than the raj half"
- Posts on stunting
- Was on-screen during lynch

Thok lists KY as his #2 (along with Rawr, see below) but chooses to spend most of his scumhunting on GaB. I'm not sure why he didn't choose to probe KY while KY was around.

Rawr/Pooky

- Iso 3: Lists Rawr Hydra at #2 in Condorcet
- Iso 18: Drops Rawr to #4 in Condorcet
- Iso 34: Pooky hasn't said much
- Iso 39: Wants to lynch Pooky (after GaB)
- Iso 43: Pooky needs to talk more

The Rawr drop never explained and Thok never asked Rawr a single question and never indicated why he had Rawr so high. He also states he wants to lynch Pooky but again never asks the guy anything.

Not liking Thok much. I think the only way he'd be clear is if GaB came up scum since he's been tunnelling that player slot all game.

VP Baltar, replacing ThebladethatkilledMufasa S2

KY Krew

- Mufblade Iso 7: Listed KY as scum in scumlist
- Mufblade Iso 9: Didn't like KY's actions
- VP Baltar Iso 1: KY Krew is scum (duh)
- VP Baltar Iso 3: Condorcet votes KY #1
- VP Baltar Iso 8: Wants to extract info from KY
-

VP Balar Iso 12: Votes KY Krew

All good here. Even the Mufblade part. Wow.

Rawr/Pooky

- No mention of Rawr Hydra by Mufblade
- No mention of Rawr Hydra by VP Baltar (replaced already?)
- VP Baltar Iso 54: Neutral Pooky read
- VP Baltar Iso 65: Pooky posts garbage everywhere!
- VP Baltar Iso 120: Pooky in neutral category
- VP Baltar Iso 126: Dislikes Pooky's on-camera choices but likes his Gaspar attacks
- VP Baltar Iso 133: Pooky is unreadable and unhelpful

I'm really not sure what to think of this. Continually listing Pooky as neutral, without trying to do anything to shift him one way or another, isn't good. However I did see him agreeing with Pooky's points in a couple of spots.

VP's play this game has been pretty good, and I like the KY bit, so I'm leaning townish here.

zu_Faul, replacing Panzerjager S4

KY Krew

- Panzer On-screen Scene 1
- Panzer Iso 3: Doesn't like KY Krew at all
-

Panzer Iso 8: Votes KY Krew

Went MIA basically during Scene 2 backstage, but did get on the wagon.

Rawr/Pooky

- 0 mention of Rawr Hydra
- Panzer Iso 14: Doesn't know much of Pooky
-

Panzer Iso 15: votes Pooky

with no explanation

....and that's it. Wow.

I have no idea what to think here. Hopefully zu starts posting stuff soon.

So my picks, in order of preference, would be:
Hewitt
StarKiss
CKD
Thok

---
One quick note: If nothing else, this game proves that Lynch All Lurkers should be a site-wide policy.

whew

[Mighty Orbots]

What the hell is going on in this thread.

[Mighty Orbots]

What the hell.

I mean really what the hell.

...

Time to read up.

[Mighty Orbots]

So what we take away from CKD is that SMG does exist. Okay.

The only way I can see this working is if {Something Else} is a combo of SMG and Scientologists. But I just don't see the point of two scum groups and why there are so few NKs.

I'm also conflicted on hewitt now because his number checked out. Unless somehow things got maneuvered to where we were picking from two bad choices? Math people, help?

I'm incredibly frustrated. Seriously, this game.

[Mighty Orbots]

What we can take away is that CKD was telling the truth as best he knew. It doesn't prove two mafia groups. IF (and that's a big IF) there is a SMG that is separate and distinct from the Scientologists then it may be a single person with a separate win condition.

Well, it's not what CKD said, and I think we can take what he said at face value now.

the "mafia" name is Screen Mafia Guild (SMG). If I would have driven, I would have become a member of their crew...if Valentine drove I would remain innocent.

---

it was in my advocate PM about being able to join the SMG in scene 1

---

I do know that I was offered to join the mafia...I could have EASILY joined them day one, but chose this path.

etc

He specifically called them a mafia group, and I see no reason not to believe him. And regardless of their numbers, they're still an anti-town faction. That said, I'm completely at a loss as to how it's supposed to work.

My list:
hewitt
StarKiss
Thok

Obviously some sort of crazy manipulation went on last scene. It must have happened before hewitt asked his question, so his answer being correct is null.

Question to you: Who are you designating to leave behind as the lynchers?

Also: Why zu_Faul?

[Mighty Orbots]

Are you suggesting that his advocate PM lied? I don't understand where you're coming from.

Also those other two questions still.

[Mighty Orbots]

Woops, nathed.

Who to be the lynchers? Not sure yet. Volunteers or noms will be considered.

I'm scheduled to be on stage, so Thesp will have to stay here to relay information. That's one. The only other one I feel really good about would be Shadowlurker.

hewitt
Thesp
Shadowlurker

?

I agree with Thesp that I'm tired of dancing around it. We can't let a scum slip by pretending to be the AP if they're not.

Actually I agree with this too. The AP becomes void after next scene anyway since we change over to some sort of open setup, so there's really no point in hiding it anymore.

[Mighty Orbots]

I agree with this 1000% - Mighty Orbots, why didn't you ask about 41?

Is this a serious question? We had consensus on-screen for me to check hewitt. Why are you trying to spin this against me?

How is this significant? In what way will it change how you play? I'm serious - I want an answer here. (Same question to Mighty Orbots.)

Two reasons. One, I'm trying to figure out the mechanics behind this information, since it may be significant to the rapidly approaching endgame. Second, two smaller scumgroups means there is less coordination available to them.

I'm really puzzled why some people are just ignoring CKD. Many Bothans died to bring us this information.

I'm uncomfortable with Talilan, and I have lurking concerns about ShadowLurker that aren't going away.

Are you suggesting ShadowLurker posted the big list and then Talilan ensured that only bad choices were available by saying Yes?

BTW I need to see a scumlist from you. A lot of your play this game has been to sit back and criticize. Let's see your hand. I'm tired of trying to puzzle through what you're saying.

[Mighty Orbots]

Don't be a jackass and say we when clearly not every person On-Screen wanted you to check me. I made it VERY clear I thought it was stupid and that checking me was stupid because one of those son of a bitches were going to have screwed the town over and lied.

Oh. And I was right.

There were a few of us (Y HALO THAR HEWITT) who were content to follow along with the plan. In my case it's because I don't do math and people started throwing arcane formulae around like wizards.

Fantastic. We're almost done with this.

So, to verify: I'm asking if {74, 14, 39, 23, 51, 41} contains a Very Good, right? And we're expecting a yes answer.

I was perfectly willing to check 41 per the plan. VP Baltar, Talilan, and DGB all agreed on this course. I was willing to do whatever. You just got pissy because we were checking you... prior to this you didn't care what happened. Shadowlurker was V/LA, I dunno where Thok was. So yeah, a majority (4/6 present) were in agreement.

---

In other news, I'd like to broaden my request from just Thesp to everyone else. Thok and Talilan have provided scumlists... I'd like to see everyone else's as well. We need to get our shit together offstage if we want any shot at this game.

[Mighty Orbots]

You even hurried MO to sent in his choice.

FFS we were at deadline.

What the hell is with this game.

Tags removed from quoted material. - Mod

[Mighty Orbots]

Deadline is tomorrow. We have some really important decisions to make, and quickly.
1. Are we lynching? I say yes, but we'd want to be reasonably sure we're lynching scum, so...
2. WHO are we lynching?
In post 2367 of this thread CKD quotes StarKiss. Please go and read that comment. IMO there is no question StarKiss knows CKD is town, and he does not care. StarKiss is scum. QED. I think StarKiss is our safest lynch and I need two people who agree to stay offstage and lynch him.

This is still my suggestion:

I'm scheduled to be on stage, so Thesp will have to stay here to relay information. That's one. The only other one I feel really good about would be Shadowlurker.

hewitt
Thesp
Shadowlurker

?

[Mighty Orbots]

Thanks MO. I'm not disagreeing with your pick, but I thought you were feeling better about Hewitt after last scene....? What do you think about StarKiss?

Well I know hewitt didn't lie, which is a plus. But that's as far as it goes. It's possible that the lie came one or two questions before his and we were screwed no matter what he asked. In which case it doesn't say anything about his alignment, and his other play (see KY, Pooky) just reeks.

StarKiss is another good scum candidate, but not because of yesterday. I'm forced to view the lynch yesterday as a nulltell because CKD claimed scum and screamed to be lynched. Town and scum both would react the same way in that situation so I can't fault anyone for doing it.

Also Thesp's been flying under the radar the whole game, and with his lack of cooperation here he makes me think he wouldn't be a bad lynch candidate as well.

Also I'd like a couple of options for the other two, so scum don't know for sure who is going to be offstage (they get to pick an advocate this scene).

Other than Thesp and SL? You and I are stuck onstage no matter what. Thesp has to be here to relay info. I guess the alternate for SL would be zu_faul.

How will it be significant to the endgame? How will it affect your play? The reason I'm asking is that I see a lot of speculation, with very little practicality. (It may be that you do have practical concerns you haven't shown, but I haven't seen particulars, only idleness.)

Oh wow. Be careful Thesp, don't drown in your irony there.

Re mechanics - If there are two scumgroups then I would guess 3 Sci and 2 SMG, with CKD able to join the SMG in scene 1. (7 potential scum seems overpowered) Since he didn't, and two Sci have died, that leaves 3 total scum left, meaning if we lynch scum tomorrow we still get the best endgame.

Re coordination - This is especially pertinent to last scene, as people speculate on who manipulated what and how. If the above is true, and with split scum groups we know it's impossible for there to have been cooperation between more than two players. This narrows the possibilities somewhat.

Last point. A big component of my reads are interactions with our flipped scum players Pooky and KY Krew. A separate scum group has thrown a lot of that in doubt.

Thesp, who lied last scene?

[Mighty Orbots]

I'm seeing a lot of speculation and no real examination/conclusions from your side. So it's lol for you to say I'm all about speculation here. Naturally, when I try to force you to examine what you've been speculating about in thread...

Thesp, who lied last scene?

I'll provide a top 2 (at the least) once the scene starts, and not earlier. I will not provide a full list until the endgame.

... you brush me off. :/