California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Something caught my eye:

Scum never puts their eggs in the same basket. In standard games, some vote on the wagon, some off the wagon. They never really pile onto the same seat on the wagon.

This is patently wrong.

Er no. I'm right. You're wrong.

I would agree with you if you said it's uncommon for scum to lump together, but to suggest that they never do is wrong. (Is this DGB? Ask your partner about it.)

I said "they never

really

" and by "really" I do account for some leeway in the "never." As in "it's rare."

Thesp, nice of you to want to lynch anyone that made choices you did not like. I don't recall you being on-stage making choices a great deal, so it's pretty easy to blanket condemn everyone in one fell swoop.

Are you suggesting I should think that making consecutive wrong choices that disproportinately benefit scum is not scummy?

The record is limited. Especially in YOUR case, so it's pretty easy for YOU to act all perfect and untainted. In this regard your question to Starkiss is pretty leading. Why don't you actually come out and say what you think of Starkiss' actions instead of waiting for Starkiss to show up and give some lame answer, when you know we're a few hours from the deadline?

[Thesp]

Thesp, nice of you to want to lynch anyone that made choices you did not like. I don't recall you being on-stage making choices a great deal, so it's pretty easy to blanket condemn everyone in one fell swoop.

Are you suggesting I should think that making consecutive wrong choices that disproportinately benefit scum is not scummy?

The record is limited. Especially in YOUR case, so it's pretty easy for YOU to act all perfect and untainted. In this regard your question to Starkiss is pretty leading. Why don't you actually come out and say what you think of Starkiss' actions instead of waiting for Starkiss to show up and give some lame answer, when you know we're a few hours from the deadline?

I understand it's easy for me, since I haven't voted on many choices onscreen (though I've made preferences known in some instances) - does that obviate choices made in two instances that have given scum a significant push back in the game?

Also, I asked StarKiss what he thought as a way of trying to draw in other players to the conversation that have been pushed out (inadvertently or not) by a select few. (In fact, in his last post, he noted there were no questions for him so he refused to contribute further.) Do you think it's unclear where I stand on StarKiss?

[Mighty Orbots]

I promised this post last night, I know, but I went home and then I went to sleep. >_>

And the list goes on. Literally go back and re-read the scene, as soon as the problem is worked out the GaB hydra goes into over drive talking about the trust of the advocates, building it up slowly until she can't stop talking about the Crone. She was pushing the Crone from the get go, dirtying our two advocates along the way. One we now know is town and one I think is very likely town.

This is ALL before Talilan makes the mispost.

So, as requested, I did go back and re-read the scene, and it was largely how I remembered. I'm back behind the damn proxy again so I'll have to use post numbers instead of links.

337 - Thok likes Mother
338 - SL agrees, likes Mother
351 - VP Baltar likes Mother
367 - CKD reiterates Mother
387 - Gaspar wants Mother
419 - hewitt not sure, leans Mother
437 - GaB wants Crone
441 - Gaspar for Mother
463 - Shadowlurker wants to vote Mother
471 - CKD is iffy, leaning Crone
474 - CKD switches to Mother (?)
476 - hewitt wants to pick Mother
477 - VP Baltar wants Crone
493 - SL pseudovotes Mother

--- 494 (Hewitt) is just after Talilan's post. At this point, the majority are for voting Mother - Shadowlurker, CKD, hewitt, Gaspar. Only GaB and VP Baltar are for Crone.

501 - hewitt switches to Crone
510 - Gaspar's big logic post, reiterates Mother
520 - Starkiss

votes

Crone

---green light---
541 - VP Baltar votes Crone
542 - hewitt votes Crone

etc

Point being, the town strongly leaned in favor of Mother before the post, and attitude switched afterwards.

Agreed on CKD btw.

I think she was positioning herself to hammer the bad choice because if anyone can spin it, she can. I also think she wasn't anticipating being called out for this behavior which is why she ended up NOT voting. Something I can't excuse.

Well she was in position to hammer but didn't. Why not? Are you satisfied with her explanation?

I also forgot another point about how when we spoke about holding the people who voted the Crone responsible for the bad choice she was extremely quick to point her finger at Hewitt. Not cool seeing as how it is clear she was a MAJOR driving force behind the choice.

Again, I'd argue Talilan was more of a driving force, for what I said above. VP Baltar also drove the choice much of the day. It

is

kinda weird that she'd espouse Crone all day and then not vote once the green light was given, but ultimately I think Talilan was more responsible.

[Gaspar]

ckd, explain to me how it is fair to decide a person's lynch while they are onstage and can't defend themselves.

Do you think a person can be correct without being fair?

Probably. It is possible to lynch correctly without being fair to the lynchee. But you're not always going to pick the right person to lynch, and I think you are depriving yourself of chances you might have to reverse a potential mistake if you don't have a proper discussion with the lynchee. So while it is more fair to allow the lynchee a proper defense, it also beneficial to the town.

~elvis

[Mighty Orbots]

PZ: Gaspar was scummy for his choice in the Crone/Maiden etc. scene because he said "...Mother was so obviously the correct choice". Whatever you say, it was not "so obviously the correct choice" at all. See my posts reasoning out the best solution for why there was a good chance it was Crone also. Certainly not enough to justify it being "so obviously the Mother", especially with the ambiguous nature of the hint elmosaurian was given. Either way that's certainly not a basis for your "town read of someone being shot to pieces".

- ortolan

Again, that once incident was not the main basis of my town read being shot to pieces. The critical mispost is.

What do you think is more likely? That scum would know the worst choice and advocate for the best one to look good, or that they would push for the worst to get endgame advantage?

I think it depends on the individual scum player. Some scum players may prefer to look ultra-townie, and vote the good choice every time. Some may want to lurk moar, and choose not to vote. Some may be brash, and look to be 50/50 enough in people's minds not to be in danger of lynch but also explain why they haven't been NKed; they would be more likely to push bad choices. It's situational too though... if scum get far enough behind in points they would probably have to throw caution to the wind. Or if there are lots of scum onstage at some point, maybe they'd be more inclined to push a bad choice.

My point was that the chart is a great tool but shouldn't be the basis for a read, just one part of it.

[Gaspar]

Hey I was looking at scene 3 too and I think there are a few more important points to be made.

337 - Thok likes Mother
338 - SL agrees, likes Mother
351 - VP Baltar likes Mother
367 - CKD reiterates Mother
387 - Gaspar wants Mother
419 - hewitt not sure, leans Mother
437 - GaB wants Crone
441 - Gaspar for Mother
463 - Shadowlurker wants to vote Mother
471 - CKD is iffy, leaning Crone
474 - CKD switches to Mother (?)
476 - hewitt wants to pick Mother
477 - VP Baltar wants Crone
493 - SL pseudovotes Mother

--- 494 (Hewitt) is just after Talilan's post. At this point, the majority are for voting Mother - Shadowlurker, CKD, hewitt, Gaspar. Only GaB and VP Baltar are for Crone.

501 - hewitt switches to Crone
510 - Gaspar's big logic post, reiterates Mother
520 - Starkiss votes Crone

---green light---
541 - VP Baltar votes Crone
542 - hewitt votes Crone

etc

I also want a few other things on this timeline:
327 - CKD comes to conclusion that Mother is neutral or good, crone is bad or good, and maiden is neutral or bad.
[fill in with MO's timeline]
551 - pooky stunts in and votes crone (vote doesn't count)
552 - ckd "vote crone lets gamble then....

though mother would be the safest choice. "
(vote doesn't count)
553 - Glork gets angry thinking crone has been hammered
554 - ckd votes mother
565 - pooky revotes crone
566 - ckd lols at pooky
567 - tabris hammers crone

So there was a big shift there in thinking and for very little reason. The reasons seem to be 1)elmo was prb lying 2)I felt like voting for the ugly chick (crone). Number 2 is not a reason, and for number 1, Glork made a good case why elmo wouldn't lie even if he was scum.

ALSO, nobody said they voted crone because they didn't trust ckd, and ckd's information led to the conclusion that mother was good or neutral and crone was bad or good. If they had just listened to that they should have picked mother. Each choice has an equal chance of being good, but only one has the chance of being bad! Why pick the only one that might be bad?!?!

So my question to the crone voters -- even if you distrusted elmo/yos, why didn't you listen to ckd? And why didn't ckd listen to himself?

~elvis

[sottyrulez]

Orbots: I can see your point. However I am of the opinion that not many people apart from Hewitt actually saw the Tal mispost. SL and VP both post almost right after indicating that they had no idea what Hewitt was talking about (posts 495 + 497). Maybe some used this as an excuse to jump on and switch over, but I still think that GnB is the main reason the Crone was such a viable choice that they could do that.

I think she was positioning herself to hammer the bad choice because if anyone can spin it, she can. I also think she wasn't anticipating being called out for this behavior which is why she ended up NOT voting. Something I can't excuse.

Well she was in position to hammer but didn't. Why not? Are you satisfied with her explanation?

I had to look back for an explanation because I don't remember her ever giving a clear one.

I must admit my first instinct was to point out how my first on-camera choice had my keister literally on fire with paranoia, and on the second choice I was merely nursing my 3rd degree burns from the day before. Although I did not actually vote, I was squarely on the side of the wrong choice, and did write, on-camera, that I accept responsibility and consequences as if I were on the vote. But saying this would undermine that magnificent ode to the Goofball that you wrote so beautifully and that I will add to my wiki page the moment this game is over, and I think I'd rather sit on those fresh laurels for a while. They smell sweet and feel like a heavenly cloud.

Basically she seems to be trying to say she isn't smart enough to be such a mastermind. I respectfully disagree. In my opinion I don't think she hammered because we started to pressure her about her non commitment on the whole issue. I think at this point she didn't want to dirty her hands any further and so backed off. Obviously this is simply my opinion on reading the exchange we had and I can't really prove it outside reading her mind. Just the fact she didn't vote at all after all that doesn't really add up for me.

My point was that the chart is a great tool but shouldn't be the basis for a read, just one part of it.

I agree with this.

-Sotty

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Basically she seems to be trying to say she isn't smart enough to be such a mastermind. I respectfully disagree.

Bless you.

In my opinion I don't think she hammered because we started to pressure her about her non commitment on the whole issue. I think at this point she didn't want to dirty her hands any further and so backed off.

I didn't back off. I stated, go look it up, that despite waiting for deadline to fall, I was taking full responsibility for the outcome. I wanted my share in the glory and light of making the right choice, but similarly since the choice turned out bad, I am tarred and feathered, vote or not. I accepted that when I stated my position, and I accept it now. As I wrote during the scene, on-camera, I should be counted as having voted, even if I technically didn't.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.

[VP Baltar]

I do think the "accident" by Talilan was important. People seemed to interpret it as saying that the Crone was the much preferred choice off stage. What I think is important is the interpretations of people after it was posted. I need to look back at the specific quotes, but if my memory is correct, hewitt and GaB made it sound like a certainty.

So my question to the crone voters -- even if you distrusted elmo/yos, why didn't you listen to ckd? And why didn't ckd listen to himself?

Well, first, I don't agree that Glork made a good case why Yos-scum wouldn't lie in that situation, and had he been lying, then Crone was the obvious choice. If we chose to disregard his information entirely and go only with ckd's information, then I agree with you. However, the situation didn't happen in a vacuum. Yos was nudge town toward the Mother and I trusted ckd's info that it either needed to be the Mother or the Crone. The obvious choice in that situation is to pick the Crone because a scum Yos was going to get lynched and would have wanted us to pick the wrong choice, and would have been nudging the town toward the wrong choice before his inevitable demise.

[Gaspar]

VP, I still think it makes more choice to pick the safe option. But if you're right, and you say that since everyone thought yos was lying scum they went with crone... how do you look at the scene? Who do you think was scum on or of the crone wagon? Do you draw different conclusions based on different criteria?

Like, who do you think was scummy in the crone scene?

~elvis

[VP Baltar]

I am quite certain that StarKiss is scum. That scene only adds to his scumminess, which has been continual throughout the game.

Give me a bit to look at hewitt and GaB's reactions to Talilan's "accident" because it does seems likely that at least one of them is scum. From my memory, GaB started in on it being a certitude off stage and then hewitt corraborated when SL and I asked about it.

Pooky's vote is basically unreadable, and even when asked to clarify he is not helpful.

[Thok]

My general feeling on the Mother-Crone thing:

If Yos was town, Mother was the obvious choice.
If Yos was scum, you've got a WIFOM situation between Crone and Mother (and possibly Maiden depending on how much you trust CKD, although his clue was more likely to be honest given how it was phrased.) Basically, if Yos was telling the truth, you take Mother without thinking, and if Yos was lying than Crone was the best option, but it's hard to establish whether he will lie or tell the truth in that situation, since that's exactly WIFOM.

I think even at the time, to call one of Crone/Mother obvious requires completely ignoring the WIFOM factor.

(Hindsight is 20/20 obviously. I know my late reaction was more based off of "Hey there are a bunch of people agreeing on Crone and refusing to have discussion" than on my assessment of Yos.)

[Mr. Grey]

Hot Splicer

Mr. Grey is yelling at a small group including two members of the camera crew and an editor. Most of the rest of the film crew are careful not to glance in that direction for fear of Mr. Grey making eye contact and turning his fury on them.

Mr. Grey's assistant is either very brave or very stupid, because she walks right over and eases into a position next to Mr. Grey's right shoulder.

"Sir? Is there another problem?"

"Of course there is! These idiots have...

misplaced

some footage. And don't patronize me."

"I... sir, I would never patronize you, sir. If my tone suggested... I suppose I am as frustrated with the problems we have been having as you must be, Mr. Grey."

"I doubt that."

"What footage is missing?"

"Those last few pieces of scene four that we filmed, and some of the stuff we've already shot for scene five."

Indeed, half of the actors are on the bar set, waiting for filming to resume.

"Ok, sir. I'm sure they'll turn up. And we'll get them in their proper place in the film."

"They had better turn up. Either someone is out to sabotage this film, or someone is very careless and lazy."

"Probably both, sir."

"What?"

"Nothing, sir."

---

It is Scene 5. With 7 Off Stage, it will take 4 to lynch before the end of the Scene.

[Talilan]

Mighty Orbots & VP Baltar and anyone else who thinks our mispost could have been intentional

This is really amazing me. Let me get this straight. Are you guys saying that you think we intentionally posted in the wrong thread, and that it was a strategic scum move. Because that is what I keep reading, but I can't actually believe it. You are accusing us of intentional cheating in this game. If you're town and you're serious, please consider the ramifications to the reputations of 2 established mafiascum members. If you're scum, this kind of strategy is really not cool.

Don't dance around it, because if I'm being accused of cheating I want it expressed openly. If you're not willing to say, "Talilan, I think you intentionally cheated in this game", then do me a favour and acknowledge that mistakes happen, and although we made a big one, it could've happened to anyone.

[Talilan]

Annnd... they're both on-stage now.

Just saw off-stage player list. This should be fun.

[Talilan]

CKD: People want you fired. What happened? Did you intend to leave us with no way to send a message on-stage?

[Gaspar]

Well golly gee, CKD left me with a bunch of people who want me dead. How surprising.

[Gaspar]

ckd is begging to die. Putting all communication roles onstage at once. Even stuntman VP is onstage.

I don't think we have to fire ckd if we lynch him, right?

Problem solved.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

I had a thought.

I kind of want everyone to claim their secret words. I'll wait for input from everyone else before deciding if I actually want everyone to claim their secret words.

[Gaspar]

Both of the unsigned posts were Glork, by the way.

[Mr. Grey]

Mod Note:

curiouskarmadog has posted in the On Camera thread while Off Stage, and has received his first strike.

[curiouskarmadog]

oh god dammit

I thought I was on stage..

[curiouskarmadog]

this was my list.

1.) Sotty
2.) thok
3.) VP
4.) Thesp
5.) CKD
6.) pooky


I didnt put orbots there.

also pooky and myself are here...

[curiouskarmadog]

of course, pooky was only as back up so that explains why he is here....LOL, and I am here...lovely.

interesting how orbots was put on stage when I didnt put him there AND he is the fucking advocate....

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

solid work

lets lynch glork now