Advertising Mafia - Over, see 1183

[scotmany12]

There is a risk of giving PGO to scum. My choice is basically random at the moment, and I am not interested in seeing PGO be given to scum.

[scotmany12]

There is a risk of giving PGO to scum. My choice is basically random at the moment, and I am not interested in seeing PGO be given to scum.

Why is in the world is your choice random?

Not totally random, but there isnt going to be a lot to go on when i hand out these abilities.

[scotmany12]

I'm not liking the "mostly random" caveat of scotmany's statement.

It's an active way avoid his choices being open to scrutiny. "Random" implies that there is no reason for his choices that we can question.

I believe that a player might feel the need to say this out loud if he's afraid his choice may betray that he's scum, under the light of scrutiny.

I currently have what I know about a player to use in my decision. I know that both Yos and Adel are very beneficial as town, but as scum they are dangerous. That's about all I know as of now. Sure, I can gain something from what people suggest on what abilities we choose, but that is it.

[scotmany12]

You guys confuse me with someone who can catch scum with the slightest slip. I am in no way trying to avoid scrutiny.

[scotmany12]

Yeah, I never said I can't catch scum. I never said I wasn't going to try and see if any of the people of the creative department act scummy during this stage. It's HIGHLY unlikely that any scum is going to let something slip during this phase, so my choice, barring anything extreme, is going to be basically random for today. Stop trying to stretch what I said into something that looks bad.

[scotmany12]

Like I said, there are no random decisions. And lying about this and stating that your choices are random is simply avoiding scrunity.

I once made a random investigation as cop. Mhm. There are totally random decisions. Not lying.

[scotmany12]

Yeah, I never said I can't catch scum. I never said I wasn't going to try and see if any of the people of the creative department act scummy during this stage. It's HIGHLY unlikely that any scum is going to let something slip during this phase, so my choice, barring anything extreme, is going to be basically random for today. Stop trying to stretch what I said into something that looks bad.

*sigh* There is no stretching of the truth. You are avoiding accountibility. And now you're contradicting yourself.

I'm not avoiding accountability at all. Sorry if telling the truth means I have no accountability. Where did I contradict myself?

You guys confuse me with someone who can catch scum with the slightest slip.

What does this mean then?

It means what I said. If you expect me to catch anything during this phase when it is highly unlikely that anything is going to slip then you are mistaken.

[scotmany12]

It's HIGHLY unlikely that any scum is going to let something slip during this phase [...]

It's highly LIKELY that scum would slip early, they often do.

You did.

For example.

Yeah, I didn't slip at all. Nice try though.

[scotmany12]

I never said I wasn't going to try and see if any of the people of the creative department act scummy during this stage. It's HIGHLY unlikely that any scum is going to let something slip during this phase, so my choice, barring anything extreme, is going to be basically random for today.

Wait, what?

It's extremely beneficial for scum to try and influence today's selected power roles, especially with PGO out there. A scum creative director can easily assign roles in such a way that they're neutered. Very specific example: one half of a creative team is scum, and a scum creative director assigns that team the sole tracking ability. The scum half of the creative team then submits the kill after selecting some other target to track with his or her town partner; this ensures that the night kill can't be tracked that night.

I'm highly aware of this.

[scotmany12]

You are a pivotal power role, scotty. Expect your decisions to be looked over deeply. Especially as the game continues and more players end up dead. You need to be able to say "this is why I chose this person..."

If it turns out you chose a bunch of scum...it will be very easy for you to yell, it was "random, random I say!" thus avoiding accountibility for your actions. You should choose players based on your reads of them and suggestions of other players, not RANDOM.

Sigh...never once said all my choices the entire game would be random. I said my choices for this first day would be basically random. There's a slight chance that something is going to happen in this first day that will influence my decision, and its not like I would totally ignore that. But it's only a slight chance.

[scotmany12]

I never said I wasn't going to try and see if any of the people of the creative department act scummy during this stage. It's HIGHLY unlikely that any scum is going to let something slip during this phase, so my choice, barring anything extreme, is going to be basically random for today.

Wait, what?

It's extremely beneficial for scum to try and influence today's selected power roles, especially with PGO out there. A scum creative director can easily assign roles in such a way that they're neutered. Very specific example: one half of a creative team is scum, and a scum creative director assigns that team the sole tracking ability. The scum half of the creative team then submits the kill after selecting some other target to track with his or her town partner; this ensures that the night kill can't be tracked that night.

I'm highly aware of this.

If you're aware that scum will influence role decisions, how can you say that it's "highly unlikely" that there will be any evidence of of that behavior? A "slip" here does not have to mean "a careless mistake," it can be anything that leads to revealing scum, orchestrated play or not.

The one ability that truly benefits scum right now is the PGO. I don't see the scum pushing for this or even trying to influence the outcome a little. Busdriver would benefit scum as well, and I'm not saying I'm not going to look for any influence. I'm saying its unlikely that scum are going to let it show right now.

[scotmany12]

Scottyscum giving powers to the scum would be a major drawback to the game, as we'd be wasting tracking results on players that will mislead us.

If scot is scum, and gives power to the scum, what power should we let him hand out? Just a theoretical mafia question.

Not only are you convinced that I am scum, for some reason you assume there is scum on the creative department, something that no one but scum would know about. Hmmmm.

[scotmany12]

In a somewhat related realization. I was unaware I had a quick topic(s) to post in until I looked at my role pm again. Upon realization that I can talk to members in my department, I can say my decision this day will no longer be basically random.

[scotmany12]

Mhm. I have two. Creative and Management.

[scotmany12]

In a somewhat related realization. I was unaware I had a quick topic(s) to post in until I looked at my role pm again. Upon realization that I can talk to members in my department, I can say my decision this day will no longer be basically random.

What do you expect to learn from discussion in the quick topic that couldn't also be learned from discussion in the thread?

For one, I can discuss with them. I guess we could do that here, but I feel I can get a better understanding of how sincere someone is when we talk in private.

[scotmany12]

Seraphim's first post in the QT stated that one player on the team was scum.

The thought hadn't occurred to me, I hadn't read the rules yet. Now I read the rules, but I'm still somewhat unclear on the concept.

Seraphim knew right off the bat that there was scum in our group.

The only way he would know if there was scum in your team was if he was scum. Town would have no prior knowledge to suggest that there is scum in your group.

[scotmany12]

Group A tracks a random player and does not say who this player is.

Group A doesn't get to choose anyone to be the PGO. The PGO is one of those two. They don't get to assign that ability to anyone.

[scotmany12]

I'm liking adel's plan. I have a slight preference for roleblocker over tracker, but I support both the busdriver and PGO plans. I do not plan on making it public who i give the abilities to.

[scotmany12]

The point of the PGO is to protect the creative team, mostly the tracker. Since I won't be making my choices public, the only three people who are going to know who the PGO are are me, the PGO, and his partner. If all three of us are town, the PGO basically protects all the creative pairs.

[scotmany12]

Busdriver won't know who the PGO is. So if he wants to redirect to the PGO he simply puts his guess to who the PGO is out of the two remaining creative pairs second so that he does not die.

[scotmany12]

Busdriver won't know who the PGO is. So if he wants to redirect to the PGO he simply puts his guess to who the PGO is out of the two remaining creative pairs second so that he does not die.

Well, an alternate way of doing it would be to announce who the PGO is, and use the bus driver to protect one of the high value targets by re-directing anyone who goes after them to the PGO. (High value targets are the CD, possibly the tracker, possibly the CEO.)

That should actually keep the CD even safer; scum might risk trying to kill the CD if the worst that'd happen is their kill might get redirected elsewhere, but if there's a high chance their kill will be sent right to the PGO, they probably won't try it.

Whole lot of WIFOM with this really. Did the busdriver actually switch the PGO with someone? If so, who did he do it with? I like the idea of keeping the busdriver a secret, as to protect the three creative teams.

[scotmany12]

Approve of Adel's plan. I'm fine with both PGO and busdriver. So consider my pseudo-vote on those two.

[scotmany12]

Hi. Yeah, someone hammer.

[scotmany12]

V/LA From Tomorrow until Wednesday. I probably will have some internet access but I'm not 100% sure on that.

[scotmany12]

Hi. Still on vacation. Looks like nothing big happened yet. Get caught up when I get home.

[scotmany12]

You are all idiots.

unvote, vote: Ren Hoek

You're so cool. Fucking self voter...anyways, I'm home. Get caught up tomorrow.

[scotmany12]

I have a strong reason to believe Ren Hoek is town. Everyone voting for him needs to explain what they think about the self-vote.

There is no reason why anyone voting for Ren should change their mind because of the self vote. It is a null tell; it does not prove he is town, nore does it prove that he is scum.

I'm not really buying the whole thing against fl right now.

[scotmany12]

V/LA again from tomorrow, the 18th, to Sunday the 26th. I will try to keep up and make a post every now and then, but don't expect a lot from me. I asked not to be replaced because after that I should be fine for a while. I understand if replacing is needed though.

[scotmany12]

So I will have internet access. Still LA though because I am on vacation with my family. Though I will keep myself caught up. I find the case of FL to be really farfetched.

[scotmany12]

The points raised against FL are very solid...

What is so solid about the points raised against FL?

This. And to those who are saying that what FL said doesn't make sense from a town mindset, how exactly does it make sense from a scum mindset? It's a null tell. That's it.

[scotmany12]

Vote: SensFan

Not only are you taking what FL said out of context (he wished there was a random voting stage because the game was stalled), you have ignored Ren Hoek. Instead of explaining why the points agianst Fl are "solid" (they aren't, btw) you try to turn it against him.

[scotmany12]

Vote: SensFan

Not only are you taking what FL said out of context (he wished there was a random voting stage because the game was stalled), you have ignored Ren Hoek. Instead of explaining why the points agianst Fl are "solid" (they aren't, btw) you try to turn it against him.

Umm, except I'm not taking what FL said out of context at all. The fact remains that, if you think the game is stalled, I can't possibly understand why Town would think 'Wow, this game is stalled. I wish we were also starting from scratch, rather than being able to use whatever information was gained from the first phase of Day 1'.

Except he never said he wish is started from scratch. He said he wished there was a random voting stage. You are taking what he said out of context.

Furthermore, the arguments against FL have been explained quite well by both myself and Adel - and don't forget the two of us can talk outside of this thread - and Ren didn't say he didn't understand the points raised.

Explaining them quite well in your quiktopic means nothing, cause you know, we can't go look at that. You still ignored him. And don't bring up that it was a no-win situation for you. If you are town, your job is to catch scum. If you believe someone to be scum, you then have to convince others. You seemingly don't want to do that with FL.

Yes, I'm very happy with my vote on Ren right now, though I think scot and FL are also likely Scum.

Oh, so I'm likely scum because I voted for you? Because I don't believe what you are spouting out about FL? Yeah, nice OMGUS.

[scotmany12]

Jump down my throat all you want. I don't want to read this tonight. I'm too mentally exhausted.

Didn't you say yesterday you were going to post today?

[scotmany12]

Well, Sensfan, your attack against FL looked like you were misrepresenting him.

More to the point was your odd reluctance to answer the question Ren posed, which was "why do you think the case against FL was so solid?"

In these two posts, it looks like you choice to verbally fence with Ren rather then actualy just answer the question, and I don't understand why a pro-town person would resist explaining their case on someone.

Well, I still don't see why/where I misrepresented FL at all, and am getting frustrated that so many people seem to think I did.

As it pertains to Ren's questions, the case was very clear in the thread, explained by both Adel and I. Had Ren asked me to explain the case again for him, I would gladly have done so, but he was saying "I understand the case, think its weak, but will vote you unless you can tell me why its strong", which is a clear no-win situation for me.

Then you are being extremely stubborn. He never said he wish the game was starting from scratch, something which you said here:

The fact remains that, if you think the game is stalled, I can't possibly understand why Town would think 'Wow, this game is stalled. I wish we were also starting from scratch, rather than being able to use whatever information was gained from the first phase of Day 1'.

And FL never said he wished the game started from scratch. He said he wished there was a random voting stage. No where does that say "I wish we could start from scratch rather than have these 11 pages to talk about."

And don't couple yourself with Adel. You haven't explained anything sufficiently. Saying it was a no-win situation for you is bullshit. Someone's job as town is to catch scum. If you think you caught scum, you need to convince other people that said person is scum. If someone asks you why the points against someone should be considered strong, you need to do your best to convince that person. You are more concerned about how people perceive you rather than catching scum, which you have shown with your "no-win situation." That's not a pro-town attitude.

[scotmany12]

ckd, I've answered those questions.

No you didn't. You especially haven't explained why you believe me to be scum.

[scotmany12]

Sens, it should be very clear to you where you are been accused of misrepping FL.
Look at Yosarian's post 355. You have clearly taken FL out of context, will you accept this and does it affect your opinion of FL?

No, I don't accept its a misrep, since I still don't believe I misreped anything.

There is literally no pro-Town reason anyone would wish there was a RVS, given the situation.

The reason he gave, which was roughly "if there had been a rvs we probably wouldn't be stalled right now", is actually a pretty good pro-town reason, isn't it?

Not to mention that a rvs is not at all useless, as it does give out leads to follow.

Very convinced right now that sens is scum.

[scotmany12]

I'm hugely disappointed with CKD's lack of substance in this game.

Better than some people's (i.e. CryWolf, who really needs to post something).

[scotmany12]

11 pages of discussion is infinitely more useful.

Eighteen pages should be even better. Who is the scum?

You know I've given my opinion on that.

FL, scot, Ren. In no particular order.

And yet you continually ignore people when they ask you to explain why you believe me to be scum. I'll ask you one more time, why do you think that I am scum?

[scotmany12]

I'm annoyed that sens apparently has the time to constantly post in other games and other threads on the site but yet he can't answer a simple question of why he thinks I am scum. Him constantly ignoring that question which a few people have asked him is condemning.

[scotmany12]

I'm annoyed that sens apparently has the time to constantly post in other games and other threads on the site but yet he can't answer a simple question of why he thinks I am scum. Him constantly ignoring that question which a few people have asked him is condemning.

I think that your attack on me was bullshit and opprtunistic.

So despite the fact that others have also said you took fl out of context, that you ignored ren hoek, and that you took forever to explain why you think i'm scum, everything I have said is bullshit and opportunistic? I guess that makes CKD opportunistic in pursuing a bullshit case too right? I guess everyone that says you misrepped fl is opportunistic then too right? Seriously, the best you can do is that my attack on you is bullshit and opportunistic, despite me being right. Seriously, come on, there is no way you can be town and respond that way.

[scotmany12]

Yeah, Sens, I never called you opportunistic. Nice try though. Nice to know you have totally ignored what I have posted against you. Adel, stop being biased. Sens "attack" on me is nothing more than OMGUS. Me calling it that was not bullshit. And his so called reasoning,t hat my attack is bullshit and opportunistic, shows that it is OMGUS. Adel, I would expect you to know that when someone says that an attack against them is bullshit and opportunistic without even explaining why that he doesn't truly think it is. Him calling me scum is OMGUS, and you know it.

[scotmany12]

Except that I'm not the only one to say his stance on FL was wrong. Why didn't he lump Yos in? I don't recall anywhere that I flat out defended Ren. It's because I voted for him that he decided to call me scum.

[scotmany12]

Adel, for you to look at that attack on Sens as a town tell you would have to look at both me and CKD as scum that are trying to deflect attention away from FL or Ren right?

[scotmany12]

So you think I'm scum with Ren and FL and...budja?

[scotmany12]

So you think I'm scum with Ren and FL and...budja?

I'm so tired of that rhetorical trick. Yes, I do have a list of prime suspects, and yes that list has more than three names. That I am suspicious of more than three people does not undermine the legitimacy of my suspicions.

Chill, I wasn't trying any trick. I fully expect you to be suspicious of more than three people given your ability. I was simply wondering who you suspected. I included with because I had briefly considered a four person scum team (no longer do after calculating the percentage of scum would be 35%).

[scotmany12]

Um, where did I ignore Ren Hoek?

[scotmany12]

are you just lurking and posting only when you name comes up?

I'm clearly not lurking. Now answer my question.

[scotmany12]

you are clearly trying to keep a low profile.

Um, where did I ignore Ren Hoek?

other than

Scottyscum giving powers to the scum would be a major drawback to the game, as we'd be wasting tracking results on players that will mislead us.

If scot is scum, and gives power to the scum, what power should we let him hand out? Just a theoretical mafia question.

Not only are you convinced that I am scum, for some reason you assume there is scum on the creative department, something that no one but scum would know about. Hmmmm.

which was quite ealry in the game, and which you failed to follow up on, and

I have a strong reason to believe Ren Hoek is town. Everyone voting for him needs to explain what they think about the self-vote.

There is no reason why anyone voting for Ren should change their mind because of the self vote. It is a null tell; it does not prove he is town, nore does it prove that he is scum.

I'm not really buying the whole thing against fl right now.

you haven't commented on Ren's probable alignment or the case against him.


but you did comment on Sensfan ignoring Ren. Where did Sens ignore Ren, and how did he ignore Ren in a way that you did not?

Adel, Ren asked Sens a distinct question of why the points against FL are solid. Sens never responded to this and when pressured about this he said it was a "no-win situation for him." I never did anything. I never ignored Ren directly. I see your argument that I haven't really commented on Ren that much, but I never directly ignored him like Sens. I don't agree with you that I am trying to keep a low profile.

Following up, I do find Ren scummy, but not to the stance that I find Sens. Terrible WIFOM from him, his failure to defend himself and dismiss the attacks on him as people going after an aggressive townie. I also dislike how he has accused so many people of being scum. That really irks me. Had I been around during his wagon (I was on vacation) I most surely would have commented on it.

scotmany: Now that everything's revealed, mind sharing why you chose which group to do what?

Out of the six of them, I trusted Yos and Adel the most. Out of everyone, I trusted Yos the most to make a good decision with the busdriver. I'm glad that tracker ended up with Adel, because regardless of my suspicion of Sens, I'd rather him have the investigative role than Sens.

[scotmany12]

Also, every game I have been in with Crywolf, she has lurked throughout day one. This is my third game with her. One, she was lynched on day one, the other she replaced out for personal reasons. In both games she was town.

[scotmany12]

scotmany: Now that everything's revealed, mind sharing why you chose which group to do what?

Out of the six of them, I trusted Yos and Adel the most. Out of everyone, I trusted Yos the most to make a good decision with the busdriver. I'm glad that tracker ended up with Adel, because regardless of my suspicion of Sens, I'd rather him have the investigative role than Sens.

Don't you think SensScum would have grabbed the Tracker ability?

You choice to not go right after the tracker ability does not change my opinion of your alignment. You didn't right up give it to Adel, and it wouldn't surprise me for scum to do exactly what you did sens. Had you grabbed the tracker ability right away, it would have been scummy.

[scotmany12]

scotmany: Now that everything's revealed, mind sharing why you chose which group to do what?

Out of the six of them, I trusted Yos and Adel the most. Out of everyone, I trusted Yos the most to make a good decision with the busdriver. I'm glad that tracker ended up with Adel, because regardless of my suspicion of Sens, I'd rather him have the investigative role than Sens.

Don't you think SensScum would have grabbed the Tracker ability?

You choice to not go right after the tracker ability does not change my opinion of your alignment. You didn't right up give it to Adel, and it wouldn't surprise me for scum to do exactly what you did sens. Had you grabbed the tracker ability right away, it would have been scummy.

Now you're just being dumb.

How the fuck could it be scummy, when Adel says "take whichever of the roles you prefer", to take one of the roles?

Except you didn't choose. You could have been away for all that matters. You could have not checked the QT until after Adel said he would be. I'm saying it would be scummy if you had grabbed the tracker right when you were given the abilities.

[scotmany12]

Whatever.

It looks to me like you're just looking for anything to call me scummy, and I don't have the patience or the time to care anymore. Hell, if I had known you and ckd were playing, I wouldn't have signed up, and you know that. So stop doing everything you can to piss me off.

This is a game, its supposed to be fun.

Uhh, I didn't even call you scummy for anything related to the tracker. And I'm not trying to piss you off. I think your scum. It is a game, and I'm trying to win it.

[scotmany12]

First of all, scot is not fully confirmed. But he's close enough, so let's leave it at that. Let's say I pull shenanigans, and I elect a new CD. Firstly, this does not change scot being confirmed. Secondly, you have the power to re-elect scot.

So quick lynching me so that you get to have someone confirmed remain CD despite you being able to still re-elect him is a good idea how again

This isn't true FL.

Mod: How are roles distributed if the CEO has used his one shot power already and the Creative Director is dead? Does the CEO get to pick a new Creative Director even though he's used his 1-shot already?

The CEO's power is one-shot, regardless of circumstances. If they've used the ability up already, and the Creative Director dies, the role dies with them.

What happens if both the CEO and Creative director are dead? How are roles distributed?

Knew I forgot to include something. Updating rules. If the Creative Director and the CEO both die without the CEO having used their one-shot ability to promote a new Creative Director, a one time public vote may elect a new Creative Director. If this player dies as well, the role stays dead and the creative department loses all active abilities.

The only time the town can elect a new CD is if both you and me die before you used your ability to choose a new CD. As Korts said, if you elect a new CD, and then that CD dies, the role dies as well.

[scotmany12]

Ehh, I didn't neccesarily agree with lynching FL, rather have tried to lynch scum. I have to read the last page. Jailkeeper is an obvious choice. Yeah, and no to vigilantes incase I give it to scum.

[scotmany12]

So you think I'm scum with Ren and FL and...budja?

As Adel said, this is a rhetorical trick and doesn't in any way discredit suspicions. I'm interested as to why you'd ask it, though.

I wasn't trying any trick. I wanted to know who he thought was scum. Never tried to discredit or anything. I already responded to this:

So you think I'm scum with Ren and FL and...budja?

I'm so tired of that rhetorical trick. Yes, I do have a list of prime suspects, and yes that list has more than three names. That I am suspicious of more than three people does not undermine the legitimacy of my suspicions.

Chill, I wasn't trying any trick. I fully expect you to be suspicious of more than three people given your ability. I was simply wondering who you suspected. I included with because I had briefly considered a four person scum team (no longer do after calculating the percentage of scum would be 35%).

Budja has pinged my scumdar. I don't like how all of a sudden he thinks FL looked scummy.

[scotmany12]

Didn't read all of OGML's post and everything said in the last page, but I believe he is wrong when he says Adel is scum. Mostly because I still believe Sens to be scum, and I really don't see them talking like they did in there QT if they were scum together.

[scotmany12]

did you note the posts where I explicitly stated that I did not Sens lynched? I didn't, and I still don't. His play has been sloppy, and he has been making sub-optimal posts regardless of what his alignment is. I fail to see a scum-motivation for his sloppiness, and RL drama seems like a good explanation. I see him as a relatively un-invested townie popping in and typing some words, and not thinking carefully enough about the game: mislynch material.

Being sloppy is not exclusive to town. Whether or not you think he has been sloppy, he has been scummy. Why you continue to deny this I do not know. And FL was way more of mislynch material than Sens will ever be in this game. That did not stop you.

more importantly, why would he post

I was the first person to go after FL.

Except you entirely dropped it until Adel brought it up again

First of all, I don't recall dropping it in here.
Secondly, and Adel can vouch for me here, I haven't dropped it at all in our QT.

as scum when our QT thread show no such thing:
...
I can see a bored Sens-town who got himself into trouble by just going through the motions doing such a thing, but I expect Sens-scum wouldn't. He has played in two games with me, and I abused him and violently lynched him in both of those game. He wouldn't give me fodder to lynch him with -- he would be much more careful.

Once again, his sloppiness is not exclusive to being town. If he is having RL issues, then that doesn't automatically make him town. As for why he would post that, maybe he truly believed you would, and maybe he truly believed he was being consistent with his attack on FL. Just because you would expect him to be more careful as scum does not excuse his scummy play.

Also, Adel, both you and Sens agreed in your QT that Ren should be the lynch today. What made you change your mind?

@scot, I did say it wasn't scummy enough for a lynch. I still saw FL as less scummy than Ren or Sens, but still a good lynch because of Adel's plan.

Fair enough. I misread your post wrong and thought you said you thought FL was scum.

@Ren, examples? I think I have been straightforward enough with my views.

I can't give examples. One has to look at your posts in isolation, or in context. I cannot give an example that explains that you are circumspect and overly cautious. One has to read your posts and FEEL it.

Actually you can. Show us why you believe budja to have been circumspect and overly cautious.

@CKD, I don't know how you can look at Sen's little tirade and call it a town tell. If anything it is a slight scum tell due to him dismissing our attacks on him as trying to piss him off.

[scotmany12]

@CKD, I don't know how you can look at Sen's little tirade and call it a town tell. If anything it is a slight scum tell due to him dismissing our attacks on him as trying to piss him off.

I dont think he could pull that off. I have been in his shoes (perhaps that is "appeals to emotion"). I have seen others pull that shit, but his seem geniune. I havent written him off completely, but for now not seeing it.

also, that is another reason I am checking on Adel's links. has he done it before (especially in the scum game)?

It doesn't seem genuine to me. What I'm seeing is someone who didn't want to respond at all to our points against him and tried to write them off as us trying to piss him off. That's not a town reaction at all. I have not seen him do this anywhere else, then again this is only my second game with him.

[scotmany12]

Maybe I missing something, but how did it "blow the shit out" of the chance for a Ren lynch?

Ren is pretty close to being confirmed considering that the scum tried to kill me (if goat is telling the truth). Had the scum killed me, Ren would have been lynched since I was not voting for Ren. Thus scum would basically be killing me and losing one of their members at the same time.

[scotmany12]

As for the Sens wagon, I could tell how the momemtum was shifting, and that Sens was going to be the lynch for the day.

This is bullshit. The sens wagon had no momentum. None at all. He had two votes, me and CKD, and later on CKD unvoted him. His wagon literally had very little, if any, momentum.

If other players think I am being intentionally evasive, please let me know. Sometimes I don't read the question the way the writer intends, and I think it is rather more useful to the town to rephrase a question or at least restate it if my first response isn't adequate.

You have been pretty evasive when it comes to some points. You holding back your opinion Sens for so long, and your answers to OGML were indirect. With his first point against you (re. theory and analyzing) you did strawman, as he never said discussing theory and mechanics is scummy or antitown.

[scotmany12]

At the same time, I'm loathe to see Budja playing so overly cautious, and non-aggressive. He gives me intense scum vibes.

Any takers for my Budja challenge?

I'm not really seeing how he looks so scummy to him. He has been cautious, I don't agree that he has been overly cautious though. As for non-aggressive, that doesn't make him scum. Have you played with him before as town? Was he also non-aggressive there?

[scotmany12]

The fact that you continue to try to smear Ren despite the fact he can only be scum if Goat is also scum is ridiculous Adel.

[scotmany12]

The fact that you continue to try to smear Ren despite the fact he can only be scum if Goat is also scum is ridiculous Adel.

That's really not true.

Frankly, at the time of the kill, it really looked like ren was going to die no matter what. If you had been killed, then the town would have lost a key role, and the day would have suddenly ended. I'm not completly sure how the roles work in that case, but I think we would have started a new day without a creative director, and FL would have been forced to very quickly chose one in the middle of a rather chaotic situation.

Honestly, i wouldn't be surprised if the scum had decided that all that is worth sacrificing Ren for, especally as it really looked at the time like he was going to be lynched no matter what.

Now, again, the attempt at killing you is a point in Ren's favor. But is he "confirmed town"? Hell no. Not nearly as much as, say, you and goat are.

Ehhh, I guess you're right. Still, I just don't see the scum doing that, but I will admit it is possible. Nevertheless, I believe Ren to be town.

Moving on,

Vote: SensFan

. I have made it clear that I believe him to be scum.

[scotmany12]

Case against Adel coming up, courtesy of CKD and OGML, two players whom I very strongly believe to be town.

vote: Adel

Meh. I really have yet to see a single post by Adel I disagree with or think is scummy, either here or in the quicktopic thread.

I don't really get what the case is against Adel; the closest thing to a logical case against him I've seen is OGML's suggestion of a possible link between Adel and Sensfan, and if that's the only case against him, it dosn't make any sense to lynch Adel until we know Sensfan's alignment.

Adel is almost certainly scum if Sens is town. However, I still believe Sens to be scum.

[scotmany12]

Adel is almost certainly scum if Sens is town.

That...dosn't really make sense to me, scot.

Adelscum would want to keep scummy town Sens alive so that he could still get abilities to use. If Sens is town, that's a point against him. Also, I quite like what OGML has said about Adel, and the only thing that is keeping me from voting Adel is that I just don't believe him to be scum with Sens.

[scotmany12]

I did a bit of a reread.

Rereading Yos, he comes across as very, very passive.
He usually makes reasonable, small points and summaries but hasn't actually done much with it.
He has no opinions of most players, Ren, Sens and Adel are the only three he has really commented on during my read.
He made a good case of misrepresentation on Sens in post 409 but failed to follow up on it at all which is what I dislike the most.
He easily slips right under the radar.

Yos looks scummy to me. I still think sens is scummy so no vote change. I would like to see Sens and Yos's opinions of each other as of now.

I am still not really seeing the case on Adel though.

Weirder still, is that he criticizes Yosarian's case against SensFan.

It's bizarre because Budja says Yosarian may be scum, yet Budja keeps his vote on the player that Budja believes Yosarian is misrepping.

Uhhhh, no he didn't. Budja said he liked what Yos said about Sens. He never said Yos misrepped Sens. He said he was disappointed that Yos never followed up on what he said against Sens.

For the record, I agree with you about Budja's case against Yos. I didn't like it either. But don't take it out of context.

[scotmany12]

scotmany:

I stand corrected. However, Budja still finds SensFan scummy, despite another player Budja finds scummy (Yosarian), finding SensFan scummy as well.

That doesn't really prove anything Ren. It's called bussing.*

*Not accusing Yos of bussing Sens.

[scotmany12]

scotmany:

I stand corrected. However, Budja still finds SensFan scummy, despite another player Budja finds scummy (Yosarian), finding SensFan scummy as well.

That doesn't really prove anything Ren. It's called bussing.*

*Not accusing Yos of bussing Sens.

But Budja would have to believe Yosarian to be bussing SensFan, right? Does he?

You'd have to ask Budja that. As of now, is seems to be so.

[scotmany12]

Also, I want to see both Sens and Adel's reactions to what has occurred recently.

[scotmany12]

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

So...you're trying to look like scum?

Or does OGML attacking you somehow make a Ren vote more viable?

OGML claiming that suspicion of Ren being scum is a scumtell is bullshit.

How exactly is that a point against Ren though? Wouldn't that be a point against OGML? I'm not really getting your vote right now.

[scotmany12]

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

So...you're trying to look like scum?

Or does OGML attacking you somehow make a Ren vote more viable?

OGML claiming that suspicion of Ren being scum is a scumtell is bullshit.

How exactly is that a point against Ren though? Wouldn't that be a point against OGML? I'm not really getting your vote right now.

Agreed. I don't see how OGML prompted the Ren vote at all.

Ren wasn't on your list of 6 scum suspects in your post a while back. Why is he the most probable scum?

the fucker is scummy. Look at his posts both in isolation and in context. He evades questions, makes spammy posts, self votes, refuses to provide specific cases, is following ckd and OGML, the fucker is scum. My "wide net" post excluded him, but I can't swallow the assumptions necessary to consider him cleared. Almost every post he makes leaves me with that "ick" scum feeling.

This doesn't answer my question.

[scotmany12]

Also, Sens, can you weigh in?

[scotmany12]

You still haven't answered my question.

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

So...you're trying to look like scum?

Or does OGML attacking you somehow make a Ren vote more viable?

OGML claiming that suspicion of Ren being scum is a scumtell is bullshit.

How exactly is that a point against Ren though? Wouldn't that be a point against OGML?

I'm not really getting your vote right now.

[scotmany12]

Also, I am unsure what to think of Adel's reactions at this moment. I could truly see him do this as town as well as scum.

[scotmany12]

I'm going to say Adel, your vote on Sens really contradicts a lot of shit that you have said so far in this game.

[scotmany12]

I agree the reaction is over the top, but why vote SensFan? That's seriously just asking to get lynched.

There is a lot of WIFOM in the path that you are going down with Adel.

[scotmany12]

Why would Adel vote Sens? It could have something to do with the fact that I pointed out how very plausible it was for scum-Adel to really want to save Sens no matter his alignment because of the creative team mechanic, and he's now reverted to total damage control / confuse the fuck out of the town mode.

This is very possible, but I'm not going to jump to any conclusion right now.

[scotmany12]

Adel's reactions here baffle me. My meta view is basically that outbursts tend to be alignment independent, and there seems to be anecdotal evidence that they are more likely to come from town than scum. However, whenever I have encountered outbursts before, they've been from newbie players. I can't recall seeing one from an experienced player, let alone someone of Adel's calibre, so I'm frankly just confused rather than suspicious.

My thoughts exactly.

[scotmany12]

I agree that Adel's outburst is pretty much a nulltell. However, his vote on Sens bothers me, and yes Goat, there is a lot of WIFOM in the way you are thinking. At this point i'm leaing towards lynching Adel, but Sens needs to say something. Preferable soon.

[scotmany12]

Adel is very proud of his recent winning record, and ability to avoid being lynched. If he felt he was about to be lynched, he'd be disappointed, but not to this extent. However, if his team was losing, and bickering internally, if he felt his scumbuddies were incompetent (which might mean we are on the right track with our suspicions), he might take his ball and go home.

I don't believe Adel would do that. Getting replaced out because you think you're going to lose is an incredibly wimpy move.

Railing against me, then voting SensFan looks like desperate "trying to mix things up with wild signs" that we'll interpret later.

Really? Because both votes made perfect sense to me.

...How exactly does the Sens vote make sense to you Yos? This is the same person that said on several occasions that he believes Sens to be town. I don't really see how Sens not posting for about a day would make him change his mind. His Sens vote is bad, and I don't know how you can view it a sensical.

[scotmany12]

...How exactly does the Sens vote make sense to you Yos? This is the same person that said on several occasions that he believes Sens to be town.

Consistancy is a scum tell.

Town can and should always be willing to change their minds 180 degrees in the blink of an eye when given new information, or just when re-assesing old information. In fact, it's generally better if they do; makes it harder for scum to manipulate town using the nightkill to keep those alive who trust them and kill those who don't. The only people who should be worried about consistancy are scum, because they're more worried about being lynched then about how they look.

In this case, I think Adel's sudden flip on Sensfan makes sense, and I also think it was a very pro-town thing to do. For one thing, if Sens does flip scum, then the way people reacted to Adel's sudden change of heart will give us lots of information, I think.

It would make sense if he gave a legit reason for his change of heart. He didn't. All Sens had did was not post in like a day, something he has done previously in this game. Sens didn't do anything new that was scummy. Adel had no reason for the change of heart on Sens. There was no new information to change Adel's mind. His vote on Sens, someone he has been adamant in defending and stating he was town, makes no sense.

[scotmany12]

Railing against me, then voting SensFan looks like desperate "trying to mix things up with wild signs" that we'll interpret later.

Really? Because both votes made perfect sense to me.[/quote]
Also, the Ren vote was ridiculous and scummy. The constant attempt to discredit Ren by both Adel and you, Yos, is scummy and not protown.

[scotmany12]

Also, this post

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

is fucking awesome.

No it's not. And I'm now convinced that you are now scum with Adel yos. There is no way someone of your caliber Yos would look at the points against Adel and say they aren't logical or convicining. Also, I missed this earlier, but the fact that you said CKD looks the worst (I'm ignoring the Ren statement, it is irrelevant at this point) when CKD actually made a decent case on Adel is condemning. You are no way playing how I would expect you too as town.

Unvote, Vote: Adel

[scotmany12]

Yos, TDC dying is a major point against you.

[scotmany12]

Yos, TDC dying is a major point against you.

?

How is that?

Scum have an incentive to get rid of the creative pairs. The only people who would know that TDC-Budja do not have bulletproof are TDC-Budja (Budjascum has an incentive to keep TDCtown alive, so that he can continue getting abilities) and the creative team that I gave the bulletproof too, which is you, Yos, and Goat. Doesn't make sense for Budja to kill him, and scum in accounting wouldn't know who had the bulletproof, unless there is scum in creative. So that leaves you Yos, since I in no way believe Goat to be town.

Seeing as how you seem to be pushing for a sens lynch (I can't really tell since you haven't voted yet), that would get rid of that creative pair's ability to gain abilities, and killing TDC keeps Budjja from getting abilities. Basically, if Sens, or even Adel is lynched, you are Goat are now the only group that can get abilities (unless I reassign, even then you still have incentive to make me use my ability).

[scotmany12]

EBWOP: In no way do I belive Goat to be scum.

[scotmany12]

I don't think it is as obvious as you think it is. Everyone needs to chime in now and say if they think it was obvious that I was going to give Goat-Yos Bulletproof/Tracker. When I assigned abilities, I retracted that I found budja scummy because I misread his one post.

Regardless, I do not believe for a second that scum do not find anyone on the accounting team to be a threat. I would believe them to kill one of them without taking the risk of hitting the bulletproof.

Anyways,

unvote

. I am no way clearing Adel. I think I jumped the gun a little bit, but I like that it did generate discussion among me and Yos. I am not saying I no longer think Yos is scum either, but Sens is still scummy, and I have made it clear that I believe one of him/Adel to be scum. I could actually see Yos being scum with either of them.

[scotmany12]

I agree that Adel's outburst is pretty much a nulltell. However, his vote on Sens bothers me, and yes Goat, there is a lot of WIFOM in the way you are thinking. At this point i'm leaing towards lynching Adel, but Sens needs to say something. Preferable soon.

I'm leaning the opposite actually. I don't like how Sens has taken the opportunity to lurk back into the shadows and say nothing once the pressure is off of him.

I also think he's reading this thread but actively lurking. In my ominous post 666, I address a few comments about Sens, and he responds in 13 minutes. Can you say reading the thread, but only popping in to address things directed at him?

One of the reasons why I just unvoted Adel. I say right now Adel is slightly ahead of Sens for me, but if Sens continues to ignore the thread that will probably change.

His Sens vote is bad, and I don't know how you can view it a sensical.

I'm definitely viewing it as "Sens"ical.

I see what you did there.

Which one of you took tracker? I don't see anywhere in Yos's post where he says directly.

[scotmany12]

As for Sensfan...eh. If you read Adel's defense on Sensfan day 1, it was pretty clear Adel was already starting to get frustrated with his play; he didn't want to lynch Sens at that point in time, but was starting to become uncomfortable with some of his behavior. I don't find Adel's flip there at all surprising.

I viewed Adel as being frustrated with Sens overall production, but he didn't find anything he did scummy. He believed him to be a sloppy town, and was frustrated at him for doing that. It doesn't look like he was ever uncomfortable with his view on Sens's alignment.

Which one of you took tracker? I don't see anywhere in Yos's post where he says directly.

As Adel pointed out yesterday, sensfan, there is no reason to claim that until the tracker gets information. And it was good Adel didn't claim early, also, because the timing of Adel's claim helped confirm Goat; Adel only said that he had tracked Goat after Goat already claimed his target, so we know Goat told the truth without knowing he would be confirmed.

I'm confused as to why sensfan is in this post.

[scotmany12]

Michel, you make some wild assumptions that aren't necessarily accurate. You assume the scum ran through all those calculations when determining their kill, and then picked one that was the best possible for them. Secondly, you assume that the mafia uses the same calculations you do. Thirdly, you start from the assumption Ren is scum and then say "trying to kill scot is the best kill for Ren scum." You're starting with the conclusion you're trying to prove. Trying to kill scot might have been the best play for other players as well.

He also makes the assumption that scum would be totally fine with letting Ren die. He also ignores the situation where scum wanted to get rid of two town roles with one kill.

I don't like Michel's vote on Ren at all. He simply pulls out a lot of calculations and assumptions, none of which are concrete.

[scotmany12]

Dont know, you do have a point here....but the fact doesnt change...the TDC DOES make you, Sens, and Adel/MS look worse, if just by being alive...his kill also (in my opinion) make Bud look better

Disagree with it making Sens and Adel/MS look bad. Only makes Yos look bad.

[scotmany12]

Dont know, you do have a point here....but the fact doesnt change...the TDC DOES make you, Sens, and Adel/MS look worse, if just by being alive...his kill also (in my opinion) make Bud look better

Disagree with it making Sens and Adel/MS look bad. Only makes Yos look bad.

?

That dosn't make sense, scot.

I've already explained it. And yes it does. I don't buy into the whole thing of me giving the bulletproof to you was obvious. The only people who absolutely knew that TDC/Budja did not have the bulletproof was those two, me, and You and Goat. Budja killing him doesn't make sense, and Goat is pretty much confirmed town. That leaves you Yos. Adel/Sens did not know for certain which one of the two remaining pairs had the bulletproof. So, you Yos are basically the only one who could have informed scum that TDC was not protected.

[scotmany12]

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian

Michel can have a day's reprieve while we take care of this.

10 bucks says CKD has no problem with you or Ren attacking me with absolutly no reason or case, despite his earlier post.

OGML has giving his reasons countless of times why he believes you to be scum. And you forget that they have a QT where they can discuss stuff like this. Not to mention CKD has made it fairly obvious that he is going to post that QT.

[scotmany12]

I've already explained it. And yes it does. I don't buy into the whole thing of me giving the bulletproof to you was obvious.

How so? Who else would you have possibly given it to, other then the pair containing the confirmed tonwie, goat?

This is a serious question; what likely role distribution could you have done that wouldn't give the bulletproof role to our pair?

You seriously trying to play off that bulletproof was the most important role to be given out? The one role that would suck if given to scum would be the jailkeeper, as that would lead to my death, which would cripple the town, especially if we aren't given a protective role tomorrow. Seeing as how I didn't express any suspicion of you, Yos, before I gave out the roles, i would think most would expect me to give the jailkeeper to the one group I didn't express any suspicion too. However I gave it too Budja/TDC because I had no reason to believe them to be scum (the one post where I expressed suspicion on Budja was a misunderstandment by me).

I could have easily given bulletproof/tracker to TDC/Budja and jailkeeper to You/Goat, had I felt confident about you Yos (I had doubts at the time is gave out the roles, but I did not make these public). I even didn't express any suspicion of you Yos until after TDC was killed.

[scotmany12]

OGML has giving his reasons countless of times why he believes you to be scum.

Also, sorry for triple posting, but he certanly hasn't made any kind of case against me or given any actual reason for suspecting me, not in thread anyway, other then his suggesting I'm linked to Adel just because I think Adel is town. Everything else is just random mudslinging, like the post where he declared "code red, bullshit alert" about my discription of my play on day 1, and then ignored my response where I demonstrated that I had been telling the entire truth.

Yes he has. Go look at his posts in isolation. He has given many reasons of why he suspects you to be scum, and they do not all have to do with Adel.

[scotmany12]

The one role that would suck if given to scum would be the jailkeeper, as that would lead to my death, which would cripple the town, especially if we aren't given a protective role tomorrow.

Eh. If you had gotten killed, then 95% chance we lynch the jailkeeper that day. I don't know how big a risk that would have been, considering the cost to the scum; I definatly would have assumed that if you were giving one group "bulletproof-tracker" and one group "jailkeeper", you would have given bulletproof-tracker to the group you trusted the most.

And no, bulletproof isn't the most important role, tracker is. Bulletproof is mostly just there to protect the tracker. Also, the bulletproof protects the confrimed townie as well, that's a big bonus.

Yos, you suggested that the scum would have killed me yesterday even if Ren was scum. You suggested they were willing to get rid of one of their own to get rid of me, the most valuable role to the town. So I would expect you believe that the scum would have killed me had I given them jailkeeper.

And regardless of how obvious you think it might be, you cannot obviously believe the scum would not find someone on the accounting team to be a threat? It would be much safer for scum to attempt a kill on one of them, rather than risk hitting the bulletproof with TDC.

Yos, you need to answer this now. Did you take the tracker role?

[scotmany12]

Yes he has. Go look at his posts in isolation. He has given many reasons of why he suspects you to be scum, and they do not all have to do with Adel.

No. He had many posts attacking me and trying to make every single thing I've done all game sound bad. He didn't have any posts at all that actually contained a case against me or a coherent argument for my actions being more likely scum then town.

His arguments were coherent and easy to follow, whether or not you agree with him. You do not have to make a nicely laid post for it to be considered a case. It's irrelevant if you disagree with what OGML says, and it's irrelevant if you think it's bs. He still made a case against you, and he has posted many reasons why he believes you to be scum.

[scotmany12]

He still made a case against you, and he has posted many reasons why he believes you to be scum.

Ok, name 1 good reason he's given for why he thinks I'm scum.

You not starting either bandwagon even though you claimed to have. You did not start the Ren wagon, and you most certainly did not start the Sens wagon.

And frankly, it doesn't matter if you think they are good points or not. He has made a case against you, something you seem to deny.

[scotmany12]

Yos, you suggested that the scum would have killed me yesterday even if Ren was scum. You suggested they were willing to get rid of one of their own to get rid of me, the most valuable role to the town. So I would expect you believe that the scum would have killed me had I given them jailkeeper.

The difference being that yesterday Ren looked like he was going to get lynched no matter what.

No it didn't. Scum had no way of knowing how the town would have reacted with the selfvote. The wagon on Ren was never as strong as you might want to think, and it did not look like Ren would have been lynched regardless.

[scotmany12]

And frankly, it doesn't matter if you think they are good points or not. He has made a case against you, something you seem to deny.

Eh, we're arguing semantics here, I think; you seem to have a different idea of what a "case" is then I do. 's not really important.

No it is important, because you said OGML never gave any reason to vote for you, when in reality, he has given his reasons. Whether or not someone agrees with your reasoning is irrelevant, he still gave reasons for his vote.

No. I suggested it might be safer if Goat take the bulletproof role but I left the choice up to him, and he took the tracker role.

If it was obvious that you/Goat were going to get bulletproof, why did it matter who took it? As long as your group had it, you were both protected. As town I would expect you to suggest Goat to take the tracker role, as he is pretty close to being confirmed town. I wouldn't have expected you to even try to take the tracker role as town.

[scotmany12]

I don't like Michel's vote on Ren at all. He simply pulls out a lot of calculations and assumptions, none of which are concrete.

Have you understood my reasoning? If you did, I would really like to know what part you don't consider concrete. I have explained each calculation and each assumption.

You made that post with an agenda in mind. No matter what, you were going to vote Ren at the end of your post. You pulled a bunch of contrived calculations out of your ass and made a shitload of assumptions, none of which can be considered concrete. Mafia isn't about calculations. You aren't scumhunting with that post. It is clear that no matter what happened in that post you were going to vote Ren, you had that agenda in mind.

[scotmany12]

Once again, Michel makes a post with a bunch of assumptions and mindless calculations that do not matter. Mafia is not about calculations. Before you even made your initial post about Ren, you assumed that he was scum. With that in mind, you had an agenda to try and place reasoning on your vote. Not only have you used calculations to try and justfiy your belief that ren is scum, but you have not said once why ren is considered scummy. You haven't made one point against him. You aren't scumhunting.

[scotmany12]

Budja isn't scum. It makes no sense for BudjaScum to kill TDC. Even with my ability to choose new pairs it still doesn't make sense. Your Budja vote is a waste Ren.

[scotmany12]

I'm mostly going to ignore scotmany's statement that I'm doing something irrelevant instead of scumhunting. I believe that a certain series of events make most sense if Ren Hoek is scum, therefore I believe that Ren Hoek is scum. As far as I can see, that is a very relevant, valid way of determining who scum is, and therefore a good example of scumhunting. If he believes otherwise, I want to hear reasons from him rather then flat out dismissal.

It is not a valid way of determining who is scum because you aren't looking for scummy behavior. You basing everything on meaningless calculations and assumptions that don't hold any water. The fact that you don't have any other suspicions makes me believe that you haven't even looked at anyone else.

Before I made my initial analysis of the dead of Seraphim, I suspected Ren Hoek of being scum because I found the events surrounding Seraphim's dead rather strange and much too fortunate for him,

and because I felt that people in general were considering him confirmed pro-town on what I felt wasn't a very solid basis.

First off, no one believed him to be confirmed pro-town. And even if they did, how exactly is that a point against Ren?

[scotmany12]

He's assuming that me and Adel, specifically, did this, and that we apparently just forgot about the bus driver or just assumed he wouldn't target scot, even though the bus driver was Adel's plan to begin with, and even though I knew that my partner Goat was the bus driver.

To be fair, there was a bit of WIFOM with the busdriver. Us as a town never came to a conclusion, and we left it up to the busdriver to target who they wanted to target. And I assume that Goat never told you who he targeted with his busdrive, so it really doesn't mean anything that you knew that goat was the busdriver.

[scotmany12]

It is not a valid way of determining who is scum because you aren't looking for scummy behavior. [SNIP]

There's more then just their behaviour available to discover who the scum is. Why should I restrict my ways of finding scum to just looking at behaviour then?

Suppose that someone replaced into an open game with 1 cop 1 doc and only 1 scum left alive. In that game, 2 players have claimed doc, and 1 player has claimed cop with an innocent on one of the docs. Would you tell the replacement in that game to look for scummy behaviour because it is the only valid way of determining who is scum?

This metaphor is an entirely different situation. We don't have a cop claiming a guilty in this game. And I'm not asking you to restrict your ways to finding scum to just looking at behavior. The problem is you aren't looking at behavior at all. The only reason you claim to believe Ren to be scum is through a so called case involving overblown assumptions and pointless mathematic. You are holding onto a theory that is not conclusive in any way. You aren't looking at behavior, you aren't looking for reactions. The only thing you are doing is desperately trying to prove your theory, which is again not conclusive at all.

[scotmany12]

I'd vote for Sens or Michel. Right now, I'm leaning towards Michel but it is constantly changing.

[scotmany12]

Finally, I would really appreciate it if those who claim there are too many assumptions in my case against Ren could point them all out to me. Personally, I am unaware of the presence of any unfounded assumptions, and I do not belief I made (m)any assumptions in my actual case.

You assume your percentages are exactly what the scum believed.
You assume the scum would be willing to sacrifice a scum member to get rid of me.
You assume the scum went through all those calculations before submitting their kill.
You assume the mafia could not actually think that I might have not been busdriven.
There's probably more too.

[scotmany12]

@Volkan: We should start using the management quicktopic.

I understand the suspicion of Volkan, but I just don't think he is scum. Call it gut I guess. He just isn't giving me scummy vibes.

Also, there is something I wanted to respond too in Yos/Goat QT. Yos, you said that we went from everyone thinking Adel is town, to everyone thinking he is scum. That's just wrong. I not once considered adel town. While his plan was quite helpful, I was never convinced that he was town. The way he stayed back during almost every discussion during day 1 never sat well with me, and then him calling me scum out of nowhere with no basis was a bit ridiculous.

[scotmany12]

1. Scum know what they're doing, and can think things through.

Your theory isn't simply thinking things through. You believe the scum went through every single scenario, which given the amount of scenarios possible, is unlikely.

[*]When they try to kill Scotmany, different scenario's can happen. Scum are aware of this, and have a rough idea of how likely each scenario is. This rough idea is similar to the percentages I've given.

Once again, you assume what the scum believe is similar to your percentages. There is absolutely no proof to that, and scum could have believed something totally different.

[*]Ren Hoek would almost certainly be lynched during day 1.
[*]Scum is willing to immediately lynch a scum member who is going to get lynched anyway if this means that the Creative Director dies.[/list]

The fourth one relies solely on the third one, which there is no proof too. Ren's self vote could have changed everything, I was personally getting caught up at that point, and other people were trying to pursue other lynches. While this isn't necessarily a bad assumption, a lot lies on it, and a lot lies on the scum believing that Ren was about to be lynched.

[scotmany12]

SensFan, you are constantly posting elsewhere around the site. We will lynch you if you do not start doing something.

[scotmany12]

Sens, you are at lynch -1. Talk now or I will hammer you either tonight or tomorrow. And if you do say something, but your contribution is lackluster, then I'll still hammer you.

[scotmany12]

Sens, you were posting in the large normal that you were in. So you basically just outright lied to us. Not to mention you have been posting a whole lot around the site. So if you weren't ignoring it, then you basically chose not to post anything at all. Not looking good for you.

[scotmany12]

So cop and busdriver are obvious choices here. That's all for now.

[scotmany12]

I have no problems with Goat's plan. Though alternately, could you do the busdrive goat and simply tell Budja who to kill?

[scotmany12]

There are more than one ways scum can use the busdriver to there advantage Goat. Many of those ways evolve wifom. At least with the vigilante role if he doesn't kill who you tell him to kill then we know he is scum.

[scotmany12]

I'm going to reassign the pairings right now. Goat, it's up to you really who out of you and budja should do the killing/busdriving.

[scotmany12]

Also, whoever the vig is is (either goat or Budja, I guess, depending onj how this goes) going to want to get the kill in basically instantly as soon as we end the first part of the day, to prevent the vig from being killed before he gets his kill off. There's apparently a "0-24 hour" delay before the kill goes through, so, so long as the vig sends the kill in immedeatly after the morning session is over, there should be almost no risk of the kill being preempted that way.

This won't be a problem Yos. Actions submitted during the morning phase of working hours are resolved simultaneously.

^(27b) Role actions submitted during Morning resolve simultaneously at the end of Morning, to avoid a race for being the first to send an action in.

[scotmany12]

And wow, Korts is fast.

[scotmany12]

We aren't lynching Yos today. I will not let that happen. Only viable lynch today will be MSH.

[scotmany12]

Yos, regardless of who gets the cop, he gets the result instantly. I expect the vig kill to happen right after the morning phase. I expect the cop to investigate someone right after that. I expect the cop to reveal his result right after that. If he gets a guilty, we will lynch who ever he gets a guilty on. If he gets an innocent, we are lynching MSH who is most certainly scum now.

[scotmany12]

Immediate actions:

alignment investigate (result),

kill--within 0-24 hours if public
rest of day actions: protect, roleblock, track, watch, plant evidence (Framer and Undertaker), busdrive--exact time stamps
end of day actions: track (result), watch (result)--after lynch scene

Korts, we need a clarification.

[scotmany12]

MSH, I obviously don't think you are the lynch anymore today as the cop doesn't get a result until the end of the day. So we'll just lynch you tomorrow.

Yos, stop referring to obvscum ad obvtown. It's upsetting. Adel was scummy. MSH just added to that by pushing a ridiculous theory to try and get Ren lynched. Then to make matters worse, he hammers Sens when Sens was at least attempting to contribute. So this is how its going to go, Goat or Budja will kill scum, we'll lynch whoever else is scum today. Tomorrow, assuming the cop result is an innocent, MSH is getting lynched, and then we will win unless there are more than 3 scum (doubtful).

[scotmany12]

When I examime the whole game, when I FEEL the game as a whole, I can tell that the town is being manipulated by scum.

And you continue to believe MSH to be town? Out of everyone, he would be the most guilty of manipulating, which is evident from the FL lynch. If anyone has been manipulating people it has been Adel.

[scotmany12]

Yos, I was the one who said that. Are you trying to say I was manipulating the town?

[scotmany12]

Yos, stop referring to obvscum ad obvtown. It's upsetting. Adel was scummy.

Adel was not scummy. Everything Adel did makes perfect sense from a "Adel is pro-town" point of view, and really much less sense from a "Adel is scummy" point of view. I can't see Adel-scum acting like that, at all.

Nothing but his actions in the very beginning of the game make sense from a protown point-of-view. The FL lynch is horrible if people actually dig deeper into it. Had FL been scum, he would have switched me out before he was lynched. His defense on Sens was ridiculous, and had no bases. Him not voicing his opinions makes absolutely no sense. Him calling me scum for attacking Sens made no sense, despite you Yos also did it, as well as CKD. Him actually ignoring me responding to his "points" against me makes no sense for a protown player. His vote on Sens definitely made no sense. He was pushing that sens play here is consistent with his protown meta. That doesn't just change Yos.

And then there is MSH, who's attack on Ren was based on a theory full of baseless assumptions, and his hammer on Sens when there was possible that discussion might have picked up.

[scotmany12]

Yos, I was the one who said that.

You were hardly the only one who said it, scot. Quite a few other people did as well.

And, no, I don't think you're scum, scot; i just said that you're confirmed town.

I'm fairly positive that I was the first one to suggest it. Somewhere in the beginning of day 2.

[scotmany12]

Yos, most of this discussion between us won't really reach anything, but when you say his vote on Sens makes perfect sense, I just don't get it. Someone's meta on a person doesn't just change like that. Im not going back to look exactly at Adel's defense, but it seems like he believed Sens to be acting exactly as he would be as town. Sens hadn't really done anything different between day one and day two. Someone's meta just doesn't change like that Yos.

[scotmany12]

Yos, we clearly aren't going to convince the other to change his mind. Let's focus on catching the third scum. Of course will have more information when the vig kill goes through, but out of everyone, I'd be leaning Ojanen.

[scotmany12]

Scumteam is Vollkan, MSH and Ojanen. Pretty confident in this right now. Budja, don't listen to vollkan.

[scotmany12]

We aren't lynching Yos today. Unvote.

[scotmany12]

Ojanen, more process of elimination than anything. I no longer believe Yos to be scum (just think he's misguided). Throw in gut with that too. You haven't done anything to really convince me that you are town; less than stellar contribution from you.

[scotmany12]

Good play scum. I do think the setup is unbalanced in favor of the scum. I like the setup and everything, but I think 3 scum would make this game a lot better, and a lot more balanced. Still a great game though.