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[Adel]

I understood Adel’s FL plan. Though I felt it was hugely flawed. It was tactically correct if done quickly by design, but at any time FLscum could have screwed us. Adel had a case against FL before her strategic point….so did Sens. Neither point stuck. It feels like you exploited that strategic point to push your agenda, which was to get FL lynched. Defending Sens as town falls into line with that agenda.

trying to get FL lynched without pointing out to FL-scum how he could screw us was tricky. Trying to get it done occupied most of my brain cycles.

Finally I had to spell it all out to get it done. I identified a 6 hour window when FL is almost never online, and posted my detailed post at the begininng of that window.

I'm pretty demoralized by some out of game events right now, and how much time I've wasted on this game. After not getting lynched for a year, I was lynched early in my last two games, and now I think that I'm also going to get lynched early in this game. Fuck mafia.

[Adel]

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

So...you're trying to look like scum?

Or does OGML attacking you somehow make a Ren vote more viable?

OGML claiming that suspicion of Ren being scum is a scumtell is bullshit.

How exactly is that a point against Ren though? Wouldn't that be a point against OGML? I'm not really getting your vote right now.

Agreed. I don't see how OGML prompted the Ren vote at all.

Ren wasn't on your list of 6 scum suspects in your post a while back. Why is he the most probable scum?

the fucker is scummy. Look at his posts both in isolation and in context. He evades questions, makes spammy posts, self votes, refuses to provide specific cases, is following ckd and OGML, the fucker is scum. My "wide net" post excluded him, but I can't swallow the assumptions necessary to consider him cleared. Almost every post he makes leaves me with that "ick" scum feeling.

[scotmany12]

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

So...you're trying to look like scum?

Or does OGML attacking you somehow make a Ren vote more viable?

OGML claiming that suspicion of Ren being scum is a scumtell is bullshit.

How exactly is that a point against Ren though? Wouldn't that be a point against OGML? I'm not really getting your vote right now.

Agreed. I don't see how OGML prompted the Ren vote at all.

Ren wasn't on your list of 6 scum suspects in your post a while back. Why is he the most probable scum?

the fucker is scummy. Look at his posts both in isolation and in context. He evades questions, makes spammy posts, self votes, refuses to provide specific cases, is following ckd and OGML, the fucker is scum. My "wide net" post excluded him, but I can't swallow the assumptions necessary to consider him cleared. Almost every post he makes leaves me with that "ick" scum feeling.

This doesn't answer my question.

[scotmany12]

Also, Sens, can you weigh in?

[Adel]

he is the player I think is most likely to be scum. He is the player I have the most scum-tells from. My estimation of his % chance of being scum is higher than my estimation of each other player's % chance of being scum. Why?

the fucker is scummy. Look at his posts both in isolation and in context. He evades questions, makes spammy posts, self votes, refuses to provide specific cases, is following ckd and OGML, the fucker is scum. My "wide net" post excluded him, but I can't swallow the assumptions necessary to consider him cleared. Almost every post he makes leaves me with that "ick" scum feeling.

[Adel]

Also, Sens, can you weigh in?

call me erratic, but I feel like a tool. Sens is avoiding this game, the Creative team thread, and our personal QT thread. Fuck him.

unvote, vote:Sensfan

[scotmany12]

You still haven't answered my question.

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

So...you're trying to look like scum?

Or does OGML attacking you somehow make a Ren vote more viable?

OGML claiming that suspicion of Ren being scum is a scumtell is bullshit.

How exactly is that a point against Ren though? Wouldn't that be a point against OGML?

I'm not really getting your vote right now.

[scotmany12]

Also, I am unsure what to think of Adel's reactions at this moment. I could truly see him do this as town as well as scum.

[Adel]

You still haven't answered my question.

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

So...you're trying to look like scum?

Or does OGML attacking you somehow make a Ren vote more viable?

OGML claiming that suspicion of Ren being scum is a scumtell is bullshit.

How exactly is that a point against Ren though? Wouldn't that be a point against OGML?

I'm not really getting your vote right now.

it wasn't a point against either, it was me flipping the bird to the group-think that seems to be taking hold here.

[scotmany12]

I'm going to say Adel, your vote on Sens really contradicts a lot of shit that you have said so far in this game.

[Goatrevolt]

Also, I am unsure what to think of Adel's reactions at this moment. I could truly see him do this as town as well as scum.

He's pretty genuinely pissed, regardless. The question is: Would Adel-scum fake reactions? Or would Adel-scum react this way as scum at all?

Initial gut-call on the reactions: Town.

[OhGodMyLife]

Hey, I can use the word fuck too. Ready?

Fuck Adel's fake ass meltdown. Oh my god, you've gotten lynched in games? This if fucking mafia. Since you're using your laudable skill as the basis for your sudden emotional tirade, I know that you know appeals to emotion are nothing more than worthless deflections.

Explosive emotional meltdowns do not impress coming from a player who strives to present himself as the most careful and logical player on the entire site. You can come down off of your pedestal, Professor Mafia, and join the rest of the mortal MafiaScum universe in getting lynched when you get caught.

If this outburst is real, fine. Replace out of this game right fucking now and let someone whose point of view isn't "Fuck Mafia" play and enjoy themselves. And get fucked while you're at it.

[Goatrevolt]

I agree the reaction is over the top, but why vote SensFan? That's seriously just asking to get lynched.

[scotmany12]

I agree the reaction is over the top, but why vote SensFan? That's seriously just asking to get lynched.

There is a lot of WIFOM in the path that you are going down with Adel.

[OhGodMyLife]

Why would Adel vote Sens? It could have something to do with the fact that I pointed out how very plausible it was for scum-Adel to really want to save Sens no matter his alignment because of the creative team mechanic, and he's now reverted to total damage control / confuse the fuck out of the town mode.

[scotmany12]

Why would Adel vote Sens? It could have something to do with the fact that I pointed out how very plausible it was for scum-Adel to really want to save Sens no matter his alignment because of the creative team mechanic, and he's now reverted to total damage control / confuse the fuck out of the town mode.

This is very possible, but I'm not going to jump to any conclusion right now.

[OhGodMyLife]

Going back to respond piecemeal to Post 648.

why was I asking him leading quations? to get some traction on him.

Once again you ignore the thrust of my point, which is that you were asking leading questions

designed to make him look scummy

. Intentionally making someone look scummy is not getting traction on them, it is setting them up. No amount of trying to explain this away will help you.

yep, you got me, I'm lurking in plain sight, & evading chances to get involved with this game. Bravo to you skill!

Bravo to you sarcasm! Its almost like if you just deflect me with your razor sharp wit I'll stop making the case that you are scum!

Things changed, and I decided that a lynch of FL was of paramount importance.

I'll tell you what I think makes more sense, from a motivation standpoint. I think it makes more sense that scum-Adel wanted to secure a mislynch of a major town power role (especially given that the other one, scotmany, just got proven town) and found a mechanical reason to push the lynch instead of a play based reason, than town-Adel suddenly having a flash of brilliant insight and deciding that lynching someone on a mechanical basis was the town's best move. Thats just my opinion, but I'm really keen on sharing it with everyone.

I was trying to establish if he was tsq or not. That is what I was focused upon.

why isn't he tsq?

Why. Does. It. Matter.
Haven't you ever played with a new player before? Even better, how about a new player with an unorthodox playstyle? You figure out how to read them based on what they do in this game.

please explain this to me, because I reached exactly the opposite conclusion.

All right, let me go through my exact thought process as I read the first few pages.
1. I don't like what scot just did. Seems slimy.
2. Oh, Ren noticed that too. We're on the same page.
3. Ren is pursuing this aggressively. Good sign. Town.

if you know whose alt he is please just tell me so that I will stop wasting brain cycles trying to figure it out.

Beyond the fact that relying on meta-ing other players is a crutch that I don't think is necessary, and that I don't feel the need to give my opinion on the identity of an alt which may not want to be identified, I am increasingly incredulous that a player like you, who is so plugged in to the overall site meta, has not already figured out that Ren is pretty much the polar opposite of TSQ.

why is it scummy? scum killing a person on ren's wagon instead someone off of it totally killed ren's wagon. It seems like an ideal way to stop the wagon momentum to me.

But the scum DID NOT TARGET A PERSON ON REN'S WAGON. Therefore the purpose of their kill WAS NOT TO STOP WAGON MOMENTUM.

he self voted, and then made spammy post after spammy post, almost none of which make sense to me from a generic townie playstyle p.o.v.

First, you seem to be applying this cookie-cutter scum tell of "self-voting" without even attempting to calibrate for the actual conditions the self-vote was made in. Second, it is clearly your opinion, and your opinion only, that Ren's posts have been "spammy" or upping the "signal-noise" ratio, and in no way provable fact. Third, as should be obvious by now, Ren's playstyle is not a generic townie playstyle, so trying to lynch him based on that simple fact is extremely dishonest.

I'm not trusting that mechanical information on Ren, to the extent that I'm even double guessing how confirmed GR is.

As Ren has said, near-confirmed townies are

incredibly

inconvenient for scum. Your continued efforts to keep Ren and Goat in the lynchable category is therefore extremely scummy.

If other players think I am being intentionally evasive, please let me know.

And they have, Adel. And they have.

Thats enough for now.

[Adel]

If this outburst is real, fine. Replace out of this game right fucking now and let someone whose point of view isn't "Fuck Mafia" play and enjoy themselves. And get fucked while you're at it.

ok. bye.

[vollkan]

Ren is playing like scum. He's been playing like scum all game

What is scummy about Ren's play at this point in time (or, at least, at the time you posted this?)

Rereading Yos, he comes across as very, very passive.
He usually makes reasonable, small points and summaries but hasn't actually done much with it.
He has no opinions of most players, Ren, Sens and Adel are the only three he has really commented on during my read.
He made a good case of misrepresentation on Sens in post 409 but failed to follow up on it at all which is what I dislike the most.
He easily slips right under the radar.

There's a certain irony to the above

Reading Budja, he came across as very, very passive.
He has made a few reasonable points, but has done little else
He has no options on most players; Sens is the only person he has really commented on during my read.
He made a good argument about why FL is not scummy, but then flip-flopped on it.
He easily slips right under the radar.

(And he has also failed to offer comment on my pbpa)

I'm holding my cards close to my chest for now. I want other players to contribute more, and I don't want to serve as a pathfinder for the scum to get a mislynch.

The first statement was utter nonsense. Adel had been spouting who he thought was scummy for awhile. SO why wait? At first I read this second sentence one way, but rereading it looks odd. Why would hanging Sens be serving as a pathfinder to get a mislynch? I don’t know Sens alignment…would lynching sens be a mislynch?

I remember reading the "pathfinder" thing at the time and finding it puzzling. The way I reasoned it in my head was that I figured that Adel meant that he just wanted to hear everyone's opinions, rather than simply leading with his own. What I don't get, though, is that what Adel says implies very strongly that he did have something to say about Sens which had a reasonable risk of leading to a lynch (otherwise, the sentence serves no purpose).

5.) Adel lack of putting a case together on anyone. Many time, I have seen adel tunnel vision as town and relentlessly attack who he thought was scum. Twice being on the receiving end of that. This game, he is heavily using game mechanics, lurker theory, and OOG reasoning to lightly push who he “feels is scummy”. Your list of candidates is too wide of a net.

I don't have a meta on Adel, but his play hasn't struck me as that different from normal. Also, the game mechanics has mainly been in the choosing role stage (when we definitely want game mechanics discussed) and in relation to FL. Pressuring lurkers to post is not scummy, and nor can I see anything scummy about "OOG reasoning" (by which I assume you mean QT usage?? Correct me if I am wrong).

I guess what I am saying is that I think you make a legitimate point by highlighting the lack of a case, but you also bring up things Adel has done which aren't actually scummy. As in, the absence of a case is a problem, but I don't see why what you identify is.

the fucker is scummy. Look at his posts both in isolation and in context. He evades questions, makes spammy posts, self votes, refuses to provide specific cases, is following ckd and OGML, the fucker is scum. My "wide net" post excluded him, but I can't swallow the assumptions necessary to consider him cleared. Almost every post he makes leaves me with that "ick" scum feeling.

Evidence of evasion?
Evidence of spam?
Self-voting is scummy because?
Where is the refusal to provide?
"Agreeing with" = "following"?

And then it comes down to an "ick" feeling...I've never seen Adel resort to gut before

call me erratic, but I feel like a tool. Sens is avoiding this game, the Creative team thread, and our personal QT thread. Fuck him.
unvote, vote:Sensfan

:S

OGML's 741 gets a QFT from me.

Adel's reactions here baffle me. My meta view is basically that outbursts tend to be alignment independent, and there seems to be anecdotal evidence that they are more likely to come from town than scum. However, whenever I have encountered outbursts before, they've been from newbie players. I can't recall seeing one from an experienced player, let alone someone of Adel's calibre, so I'm frankly just confused rather than suspicious.

[scotmany12]

Adel's reactions here baffle me. My meta view is basically that outbursts tend to be alignment independent, and there seems to be anecdotal evidence that they are more likely to come from town than scum. However, whenever I have encountered outbursts before, they've been from newbie players. I can't recall seeing one from an experienced player, let alone someone of Adel's calibre, so I'm frankly just confused rather than suspicious.

My thoughts exactly.

[TDC]

Well I doubt he'd fake to leave the site?

[Goatrevolt]

I agree the reaction is over the top, but why vote SensFan? That's seriously just asking to get lynched.

There is a lot of WIFOM in the path that you are going down with Adel.

"Anakin! There is much WIFOM down that path."

I don't consider it WIFOM.

Well I doubt he'd fake to leave the site?

I checked GD, and there is a "goodbye Adel" thread. So I imagine that his reasons for leaving the site for a while is the source of the frustration.

I'm going to call the reaction itself a null tell. If he's at the point where he wants out, I could see him snapping at being lynched town or scum. The vote on Sens, though, I believe to still be somewhat meaningful. I just don't understand why he would do that as scum.

[vollkan]

Hmm...I found the GD thread and I more or less agree with you. I think the GD thread very clearly indicates that this isn't a ploy by scum-Adel, and I think this outburst (or, more accurately, the fact that Adel has had an outburst) is a null-tell. The Sens and Ren votes are, I still think, valid sources of information, but I don't think we can read anything into to the outburst itself.

[Yosarian2]

Ren is playing like scum. He's been playing like scum all game

What is scummy about Ren's play at this point in time (or, at least, at the time you posted this?)

At the time I posted that? Did you see Ren's last post before I said that?

He was riding OGML's coattails in order to join/support multiple bandwagons while not giving any reason at all. He was using as his only justification for any of it some argumnt that was being made in the Account thread, while not telling the rest of us what that argument might be.

[Yosarian2]

If this outburst is real, fine. Replace out of this game right fucking now and let someone whose point of view isn't "Fuck Mafia" play and enjoy themselves. And get fucked while you're at it.

ok. bye.

I hope you don't replace out of the game, Adel. You've been making more sense then anyone else in this game lately.