Ren Hoek wrote:vollkan wrote:I haven't been able to see a clear rationale for suspecting Yos or MSH
What is it in OGML and CKD's arguments that fails to sway you?
Adel/MSH time.
OGML
- Adel is rubbing me the wrong way, focusing too much on theory/breaking-the-game and too little on analyzing the other players.
Yes, she was doing a heavy amount of theory and game-breaking, but as he pointed out he was also doing more analysis than the average player as well. I'm also, additionally, making an allowance for the fact that this is typical Adel play, focussing on logically deconstructing the setup
- Top of page six, Adel seems to be asking leading Qs of seraphim that are designed specifically to make him look scummy, not actually ascertain whether what he did was more likely to come from scum
This doesn't really tackle the issue that your questions were extremely leading. It explains why you asked him anything on the subject in the first place, but does not explain what I actually found scummy about the questions. Again you seem to be dodging the main points I've brought up in favor of answering something related but easier to explain.
126 is not leading at all.
125 is leading, but only in the sense of it identifies faults in Sera's play.
OGML wrote:
- Adel's vote and explanation of wanting to see if anyone would follow her is very scummy. There was a whole lot more to work with than just a lurker.
The fact that this apparently did get Voll posting does not excuse the fact that a lurkerhunt or even a lurkerprod-vote was not really appropriate at the time, and seemed to have functioned simply to allow you to ignore the major game movements happening at the time.
IIRC, it wasn't his entire focus and, more importantly, it was a legit info-gathering tool (ie. it wasn't simply a lurker-push)
- Ironic that in post 382 Adel doesn't want to "serve as a pathfinder" for a mislynch but then as far as I can tell ends up being the major thrust behind the FL mislynch.
As I said before: "I remember reading the "pathfinder" thing at the time and finding it puzzling. The way I reasoned it in my head was that I figured that Adel meant that he just wanted to hear everyone's opinions, rather than simply leading with his own. What I don't get, though, is that what Adel says implies very strongly that he did have something to say about Sens which had a reasonable risk of leading to a lynch (otherwise, the sentence serves no purpose). "
In short, the pathfinder thing doesn't bother me, though the Sens thing does.
- Post 391 is a cheap shot from Adel. Its like a madlib where the blank says Scummy Reason underneath it. She doesn't even have to come up with her own, everyone else will just fill it in themselves after this post.
I hate the "posting elsewhere on site" thing and the inferences it leads to (I basically think lurking is alignment independent unless there is damned good evidence to the contrary), but it is so common that I have difficulty seeing it as a scumtell
- Digesting Adel's post of the QT... honestly, it looks good right up to Adel calling people being willing to go after Sens a town-tell for him. The wagon on Sens at this point was a whopping two votes. I'm pretty sure Sens is scum and Adel is either scum with him or totally taken in by virtue of sharing a QT with him.
I'm confused here; I don't get what you mean.
- OK, hold the phone. Adel's quicklynch FL plan looks good at first glance, but on a deeper level it is seriously, seriously terrible. I don't know why at this point Goat is the only one who has pointed out that Ren is very very probably town based on busdrive etc but this fact leaves FL and Sens as the only really viable wagons left. So Adel suddenly comes up with some crazy break-the-game theory of why FL should be quicklynched no questions asked? I call shenanigans. Adel was saving Sens' bacon, pure and simple.
The theory was sound. Again, it was one of those rare cases where town and scum could be expected to act identically.
Adel's failure to grasp that Ren is now p much confirmed is a major red flag. She's been 100% on top of every other mechanical nuance in this game, yet ignores this one and continues pushing the "whose alt are you" and "signal/noise ratio" non-arguments against him.
I missed the Ren confirmation as well, and Adel isn't infallible.
Adel's spectacularly over-the-top defense of Sens makes sense only if she truly knows his alignment.
Because...?
Adel's indirect answers to almost all of the points I raised regarding her is very, very strawman.
They weren't indirect.
CKD
1.) First and for most was his defense of Sens. Sens was acting quite scummy. His (sens) attack and vote of FL (town) was stretchy at best. Adeltown has nothing to gain by defending Sens especially in light of his actions. Adelscum defending Senstown on the other hand not only gains a buddy, but if Sens flips town, buys himself town creds.
What was wrong with the reasoning of the Sens defence?
The first statement was utter nonsense. Adel had been spouting who he thought was scummy for awhile. SO why wait? At first I read this second sentence one way, but rereading it looks odd. Why would hanging Sens be serving as a pathfinder to get a mislynch? I don’t know Sens alignment…would lynching sens be a mislynch?
The "cards close to my chest" thing is weird, I agree - but seem my quoted bit above on the 'pathfinder' defence.
2.) Something about Adel’s 180 in taking the tracker role in their QT thread. One post he offers Sens whatever role he wants, the very next post, Adel takes Tracker. I would like to know what really happened to make adel change his mind. Nothing in the game happened during that time (post 268-270, if I am going my times right) …Though Adel was active on the site at that time…just not in the game. I thinking there was planning going on during that time and that is why you snatched up tracker so fast.
Conjecture. Not enough to warrant my suspicion.
3.) the whole goat thing. I think it is convenient that you just happened to target goat (without having much if any suspicion on him) to confirm exactly what he had already claimed.
This is a valid argument.
5.) Adel lack of putting a case together on anyone. Many time, I have seen adel tunnel vision as town and relentlessly attack who he thought was scum. Twice being on the receiving end of that. This game, he is heavily using game mechanics, lurker theory, and OOG reasoning to lightly push who he “feels is scummy”. Your list of candidates is too wide of a net.
See above on this. I think Adel hasn't been playing unreasonably different from normal, particularly when taking account of the weird setup.
Not a lot I can say to this post, since Adel quit the game. I agree with most that his melt down was a null tell. However, I think Adel knew that I had him pinned against the wall with my case. Instaed of addressing my case, he flips out.
Given the RL factors involved, I'm unwilling to entertain this inference.
MS post (882) still seem chalked full of assumptions (and lack of assumptions) to serve an end goal.
Valid argument. Somewhat of an allowance for the complex nature of the thing he was attempting, but it is still a deeply flawed appraoch.
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Okay, some of the arguments raised against Adel are legitimate. And I'd add my own suspicions about the Sens attack in blowup. It's definitely a stronger case than that against Yos, but the scumtells here are all contingent ones, which makes me less than comfortable about it going to lynch (contra Sens)
