Mini 811: Foggy Londontown Mafia - Over!

[iamausername]

/confirm

Hi, Lowell! Hi, Mokina! Hi, qwints! Hi, people I've never played with before!

[iamausername]

vote far_cry

:goodposting:

Vote: Far_Cry

[iamausername]

vote Lowell

for picking on a first time player on this site.[/b]

Lowell's not the only person voting for you. Why single him out?

[iamausername]

unvote

vote iamausername

u wanted a vote so i gave u 1. and hey, that sounds like mafiaish protecting to me

I didn't say I wanted a vote. I asked why you voted Lowell and not me, when your reason for doing so could apply equally to both of us, which is a question I note that you haven't answered.

Where is this "third vote"? Leading wagons both have two, or am I mistaken?

qwints voted me. Mokina voted me. Neferenom voted me. Mokina unvoted, voted Neferenom. So Nefer's vote was the third vote on me, before Mokina unvoted. (Also, Far_cry has now brought me back to three votes again.)

MOD: If you're editing the vote counts in at the the top of the page, please don't include votes from further down the page. That only makes things confusing.

Right you are. I've re-edited the vote count up top to reflect this. I'll also be making my own mid-page vote count posts. - Mod

[iamausername]

wat also really interests me is why iamausername and lowell hav kept their votes on me and talked about. it makes no sense, since the votes sounded random.

Well, you

still

haven't answered my question, and I haven't seen a better reason to vote anyone else thus far.

[iamausername]

Your entire post says the case on FC is not true (I like how you're still arguing to disprove a case that's got nothing to do with you).

If it's a case in a game he's in, it's got something to do with him. A bullshit case is still a bullshit case whether or not it's being directed at me. Case in point: this case right here that you are pushing on Hero. He is entirely correct to say that FC did not lie about his experience.

iamausername- suspicious. has kept a vote on me throughout the day without much explanation.

You still haven't answered my question. Lowell was not the only person voting for you. Why did you single him out? It's not a hard question. Why haven't you answered it?

@Lowell, nadroj, and Wiirdo - post more.

Why am I not on this list? Why is Tenchi not on this list?

As far as defending kik, i'm defending the point I originally made about FC. kik happens to agree with it.

You, however, are defending something another player said. See the difference?

So if you were the one to say it originally, does that make kiku suspicious for defending something you said?

There's nothing wrong with defending yourself. Doing it as much as you have on the first few pages looks a bit odd, as if you've got something to hide.

No, it looks like he's got something to defend against, because because keep attacking him with terrible arguments like "You are defending yourself! You must be scum!" The more he defends himself, the more he gets accused of being 'overdefensive', and the more he has to defend himself, creating an inifinite feedback loop of craplogic.

Unvote, Vote: dank

[iamausername]

If you don't believe him then why are you insisting that he is 100% clear?

what.

kikuchiyo, this is infinitely more of a misrepresentation of Hero's words than him saying that you said FC contradicted himself.

You most certainly did say that, repeatedly, even if you never actually used the word "contradiction". Hero has at no point suggested anything other than "FC did not lie", which is completely true. He certainly hasn't "insisted that FC is 100% clear".

Trying to get a roleclaim out of Hero based on this ridiculous wagon is scummy as hell and easily pushes kiku above dank.

Unvote, Vote: kikuchiyo

[iamausername]

I don't see any pro town reason for Hero to give FC the benefit of the doubt(aside from being masons).

Possibility A: Far_Cry says 'this is my first game on this site'. He later clarifies the meaning of this statement as "this is my first game

on this site

, when people have mistaken it to mean "this is my first game of mafia anywhere ever".

Possibility 2: Far_Cry said "this is my first game on this site" with the intention of misleading everyone into believing that this is his first game of mafia anywhere ever. When people start making the assumption, based on his statement, that this is his first game of mafia anywhere ever, he suddenly has an attack of conscience and comes clean that this isn't really his first game of mafia anywhere ever, because he just can't bear the thought that people might have been misled based on a statement he made

with the intention of misleading them

.

Pro-town reason to give FC the benefit of the doubt: POSSIBILITY 2 MAKES NO SENSE.

Now, Hero has been saying this over and over, and it is not getting through, so I don't know why I expect to have any more luck, but at least I can say I tried.

In the above posts, as soon as you suspect Hero is a mason or other linked role,

you ask him to claim or die.

If this isn't out of the blue, I don't know what is.

Bolded is the extremely scummy misrep.

No:

If you are masons, please claim. If not, its time to swing.

Please explain how "claim or die" is in any way an inaccurate paraphrase of this quote.

B) Why would scum be "happy" to have two confirmed roles? Two "confirmed townies" on day 1 effectively reduces our lynch pool, and increases our chances of hitting scum WITHOUT SACRIFICING ANYONE.

This applies to any claim. So why don't we just massclaim right now?

POP QUIZ!

Which is better:

i) having two confirmed town players while there are twelve players alive, two or three of whom are scum

OR:

having two confirmed town players while there are three players alive, one of whom is scum.

You are either stupid or scum. < Not a false dichotomy. You have shown a serious lack of understanding for how the game of mafia works.

[iamausername]

I think Hero is being pretty thickheaded, because whether he admits it or not, he is defending FC by giving him the benefit of the doubt. If you can't understand how that's being done at this point, I dont know what else can be said. Its a simple concept, its been blown up like crazy.

For the record, I have at no point been arguing that Hero has not been defending FC and/or giving him the benefit of the doubt. My point is that there is nothing scummy about those actions.

naj- please never make posts like "that's a very good point" again. thanks.

To be fair to nadroj, the post in question

was

a very good point.

I think the reason you went about your argument the way you did is that you honestly believe your accusation was based on something worthwhile.

totally does not stack up with:

Please. I am voting for you because it doesn't make sense for town to make the kind of arguments you did.

I think the first quote is a rare example of an actual genuine scumslip.

Unvote, Vote: Mokina

[iamausername]

Look, kikuchiyo is making a whole lot of bad and illogical arguments, it's true. That's why I was voting her earlier. But no one should let that distract them from the fact that Mokina has slipped up badly and basically admitted that she is scum:

I think the reason you went about your argument the way you did is that you honestly believe your accusation was based on something worthwhile.

This is completely counter to every argument Mokina is making against kiku. If she thinks kiku honestly believes that her accusations are worthwhile, then how is kiku scummy for making those accusations? That doesn't make any sense.

The reason Mokina thinks this is because she is scum, and she knows kiku is town. That is the only plausible explanation for Mokina making this statement. The fact that Mokina is completely ignoring this issue and trying to keep attention on the weak points in kiku's case is just further proof of that fact.

[iamausername]

Possibility A: Far_Cry says 'this is my first game on this site'. He later clarifies the meaning of this statement as "this is my first game

on this site

", when people have mistaken it to mean "this is my first game of mafia anywhere ever".

Possibility 2: Far_Cry said "this is my first game on this site" with the intention of misleading everyone into believing that this is his first game of mafia anywhere ever. When people start making the assumption, based on his statement, that this is his first game of mafia anywhere ever, he suddenly has an attack of conscience and comes clean that this isn't really his first game of mafia anywhere ever, because he just can't bear the thought that people might have been misled based on a statement he made

with the intention of misleading them

.

Pro-town reason to give FC the benefit of the doubt: POSSIBILITY 2 MAKES NO SENSE.

Why the fuck are you arguing about this again, dank? For one thing, see above, for another, we're obviously not going to lynch Hero today after his claim, so how is continuing to argue about this with him in any way helpful to the town?

Unvote, Vote: Wiirdo

Stop lurking. Find scum.

[iamausername]

Oh, and

Mod: Can we get a prod on Neferenom, please?

[iamausername]

Because Hero's defense of FC now becomes even more uncalled for. He is backpedaling with every post, first showing us that he does understand how posts can be interpreted differently, to now even saying that the first post was "fucking well up for interpretation".

The first post was completely open to interpretation WHEN IT WAS POSTED. Later, Far_Cry explained what he actually meant, thus removing the other possible interpretations for anyone who is not a CRAZY PERSON. THE END.

[iamausername]

And just because I'm not posting a lot doesn't make me a lurker. I thought lurking was reading without posting. I post every time I go on this site.

There's this other thing that's sort of like lurking, called

active

lurking. Ever heard of that?

[iamausername]

There's

always

a need to get snarky!

Well, mostly I worded it that way because I wanted to see if you'd say you hadn't heard of active lurking. Because then you would have been exposed as a big ol' liar, since you accused Lowell of doing it earlier. Long shot, but there was nothing to lose in giving it a try.

Anyway, the point is, you are posting, but you've made pretty much no mention of who you think is scum, or done anything that might help you figure out who is scum. This is something that needs to be corrected.

[iamausername]

iamausername

- he doesn't get points for whining about possible mason claims in 173, and suggesting that somone merely

suggesting

such claims is scummy is itself a stretch.

kiku wasn't just talking about Hero claiming if he was a mason.

Well, one. If you are masons, please claim. If not, its time to swing. Or at least get Hero to L-1 or L-2 and have him claim. His behavior is ridiculous.

This pretty clearly says she wanted him to claim whatever his role was, and that is what I was objecting to. Trying to get masons to claim immediately because you think that's the best way for them to help the town, that's not something I agree with, but I understand why some people do, and I don't think they're scummy for thinking it. Trying to get an indiscriminate roleclaim based on such a dumb wagon, though, now

that

is just plain scummy.

He wanted the attack on hero to fall apart before anyone knew (or think we know) hero's role. This OPEN derailment (unlike mokina's subtle kind) has a hint of buddying to it.

Yes, I did, because the attack on Hero was ridiculous.

---

Still hoping to push Wiirdo into giving any kind of opinion at all, but I could definitely go for a qwints vote too. He made a big deal about how Hero was scummy for defending Far_Cry, including such comments as this:

Defending other people, especially early on is anti-town.

but has never made any comment on the fact that I have been very blatantly defending Hero for most of the thread. What's the difference? I think it's that there was already a current of suspicion against Hero, wheras until Lowell just now, no one had expressed any particular suspicion of me.

iamausername - Has been contributing, but I can't shake a gut feeling. I don't know why I have it, and I would certainly never lynch based on a gut feeling, but that little voice in the back of my head makes me suspect

her

.

You know, people never made that mistake before I had this avatar. It's only 50% girl, is it really that confusing?

[iamausername]

I saw these two posts and went to vote for Far cry. Then I realized I already was.

Why were you voting for Far_Cry before? Why didn't you remember those reasons?

Unvote, Vote: qwints

[iamausername]

Iam: Though your questions are relevant, I wonder why the vote? It seems a bit of a step backwards.

I explained a bit earlier:

I could definitely go for a qwints vote too. He made a big deal about how Hero was scummy for defending Far_Cry, including such comments as this:

Defending other people, especially early on is anti-town.

but has never made any comment on the fact that I have been very blatantly defending Hero for most of the thread. What's the difference? I think it's that there was already a current of suspicion against Hero, wheras until Lowell just now, no one had expressed any particular suspicion of me.

And the whole "I was gonna vote Far_Cry, then I realised I already was!" thing seems really scummy to me. First off, I think scum are much more likely to forget who they're voting than town, because they have less reason to care about who gets lynched, as long as it's not them. And second, regardless of that, I don't like the whole attitude of the post. There's no explanation for why the FC posts in question are scummy, just an insistence that they are. It's very Argument from Repetition.

he's like CJMiller

Harsh, dude. He's not

that

bad.

---

Deadline's on the way, and it's looking like it's going to be between Far_Cry and nadroj. Given that choice, I'll be voting nadroj for sure. FC just comes off as a bit clueless to me, whereas nadroj's repeated sheeping is actually somewhat scummy.

[iamausername]

Yes, qwints. Hence my vote.

[iamausername]

That's pretty much it, but I happen to think it

is

something compared to either of those cases. If there is another explanation for why qwints would go hammer and tongs against Hero specifically for defending another player, but completely ignore instances of other players doing the same thing, I would like to hear it.

Also, looking through qwints in isolation, I found this:

I don't think either Mokina or Kiku come out looking good from their fight - I think both are engaging in some pretty blatant misrepresentation.

"Hi, I am scum keeping my options open."

[iamausername]

Now - say you're getting to be in trouble on page 7, there's a lot of talk, a lot of suggestions about what you might be. So you pick the most convienient claim and breadcrumb it right there! You have had a lot of time in the game ot pick the most convineient claim at that point. If the talk was asking if you were a cop, you could have crumbed cop at that point. You see what I mean? The later the crumb, the more time you have to read the game state and pick a convienient or convincing crumb.

The problem with all this is that claiming to be masons with someone besides the person he was getting heat for defending - that's pretty much the exact opposite of "the most convenient claim".

And, again, Hero didn't breadcrumb it, Mokina did. Meaning that she'd have to know that Hero was planning to claim mason with her, despite this being the stupidest plan ever, if they were in fact both scum together with Far_Cry, which is what you are suggesting. That's utterly ludicrous.

[iamausername]

I'm struggling to understand why Hero is defending FC so much and this is the only way that I see that mkaes it fit.

Well, as far as your main point of evidence for "Hero keeps defending FC" goes: You're saying that his attacking nadroj deflected from the FC wagon. That's true, I guess, but you're acting like that's the only possible motivation Hero could have had for attacking nadroj, and ignoring the part where nadroj was acting really scummy, and maybe Hero's motivation for attacking nadroj was

to attack nadroj

. Because his vote on FC was the

third time

he'd joined a bandwagon with an "I agree" post and nothing more. Do you not have a problem with that pattern of behaviour coming from nadroj?

[iamausername]

It's definitely possible Hero wanted to vote Nadroj because he thought he was scummy. But the timing of it is extremely suspicious to me, isn't it to you?

In a word, no. He voted nadroj at that time, because that was when nadroj did something scummy. It wouldn't make sense for him to vote nadroj at any other time.

@ all Can anyone give me a good reason why we shouldn't lynch FC given he's the scummiest player on the town and his death would either close to confirm two townies or two scum?

Him being the scummiest player in the town is a matter of opinion that I happen to disagree with you on. (Although I will say that your point that the way he says he would act as scum is exactly how he is acting, that's a good point. I am a lot more sold on an FC lynch than I was before you brought that up.)

His death confirming two townies or two scum, that is total tripe. Well, no, if FC flipped scum, I think that would more or less confirm Hero (and by extension, Mokina). As TOWN. Because it makes absolutely zero sense for scum Hero to come under attack for defending one of his scum partners, and claim mason with his

other

partner. If Hero was scum with FC, he would not have claimed mason with anyone but FC. No way, no how.

---

FC, while you're here, I think this:

Well... I'm just saying that, if I were mafia, pushing so openly for a lynch would be against my playing style. I mean, if I were mafia, I wouldn't want to draw so much attention. Who would want to? As mafia, I would contribute, but not try to be SO open and draw suspicion to myself.

Why hasn't he been lynched yet?

Far Cry has been the most consistently scummy player all game and he SPECIFICALLY DESCRIBES HIS OWN SCUMMY PLAYSTYLE AS HOW HE WOULD PLAY IF SCUM. He hasn't pushed openly for a lynch, he has deliberately posted wishy-washy crap like 61, 96, 171, 271, 337, 340....

is a very good point. Do you have anything to say about it?

[iamausername]

Lynching and uncounterclaimed doc is about as dumb as, well, lynching masons solely to confirm them.

No, because scum claim doc all the time, whereas they pretty much never claim masons.

I still think FC is scum. No breadcrumbs, he still hasn't actually defended himself, he's just come up with a claim that works. He hasn't explained himself, talked about his thought process or built any sort of decent case. In short - the claim looks transparently false.

So why unvote?

I guess nadroj becomes the play of the day then, until he fakeclaims something as well.

And then we pick someone else, and run them up to a claim, and just keep on doing that until we find a vanilla townie? Is that the plan?

Mokina has claimed mason with Hero, so if you're attacking her, you have to realise that the attack should be related back to Hero.

Funny, I don't remember you acknowledging the reverse when you were attacking Hero earlier.

Oh - also, doc is easily the best scum fakeclaim. It's got as much chance of being countered as any other common role, but if you are counterclaimed by a cop, then the doc remains hidden, so the cop isn't going to be immediately NKed.

The only common role where once he claims he's dead? Doc. Thus making it perfect for a scum fakeclaim to nab a power role before they get killed.

So this idea of doc being a hard role to fakeclaim as scum is nonsense.

Exactly.

---

Unvote, Vote: Far_Cry

I am very much in favour of lynching doc claims in closed setups. Docs are overrated anyway.

(P.S. assuming a scum flip on FC, dank has totally outed himself as a partner here)

[iamausername]

Let's see if this wagon'll get support.

I would rather lynch ThAdmiral than Lowell, so I'm not supporting the wagon in that sense, but I support its general existence because I'm sure that finding out who will/will not jump on board will be very useful for informational purposes later on.

Now, if a counterwagon was to form on dank, that might be one I could support with a vote as well. He's attacking Hero for 'not scumhunting', while he continues to sit around with no vote anywhere, decrying the ThAd wagon, and now also this nascent Lowell wagon, but not giving any suggestions for who we should be lynching instead. Just a little bit of hypocrisy in there, no?

Vote Count Fifteen

Lowell: 4 (kikuchiyo, Hero764, qwints, Nikanor)
ThAdmiral: 4 (SerialClergyman, iamausername, Tenchi, Mokina)
Gwynplaine: 1 (Lowell)
SerialClergyman: 1 (Gwynplaine)

Not Voting: 2 (dank, ThAdmiral)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

Current deadline: Saturday, July 18th 8:10 AM EST

[iamausername]

^^ Hammer this guy. Hider's are bad news.

What?

[iamausername]

The hider ability gives Lowell an excuse to make it to endgame and do whatever the fuck he wants.

Every night he survives, he confirms another player as town. This is far more useful than a claimed doc will ever be.

Even ignoring every other aspect of their play and basing it on claims alone, ThAd is the better lynch. Add in the part where FC was way scummier than Lowell has been, and there's absolutely no question about it.

[iamausername]

If he's lying scum, he still has to

pretend

to confirm someone as town. That will give us plenty of information, one way or another. So the claim severely limits his options if he's scum (unlike the doc claim), and makes him extremely useful to us if he's town (unlike the doc claim).

I'm not saying we shouldn't lynch Lowell ever, I'm saying his claim makes it really dumb to lynch him today.

[iamausername]

Everyone who was adamant about not lynching ThAd because he claimed a power role, but had no such qualms about lynching Lowell, needs to explain how that makes any sense at all right now.

Lover is not Mason. Had they claimed "Lover" we could have lynched one of them to see.

Now there's an incredibly stupid idea. kiku, do you know how Lovers work?

I am, however, interested in analyzing the shift away from nadroj15 (now Gwynplaine) - the last viable alternative.

This definitely seems like a good place to start, yes.

[iamausername]

Doc = more useful than tracker.

Hider, you mean. And,

how

?

Hider: confirms a town player every night he survives.
Doctor: maybe stops someone from dying, if he can guess right who the scum will kill.

I seriously cannot fathom how anyone can believe that the second is more useful.

There is no way we can confirm Lowell is a hider.

There is no way that we could confirm ThAd is a doctor.

If he happens to be scum fakeclaiming, hider is just a great role, because he will have a very powerful influence over future lynches, which can be very costly.

And if he ISN'T scum fakeclaiming, he has a powerful influence over future lynches, because HE CONFIRMS INNOCENTS. Very costly FOR SCUM. Why ignore this?

It's also of course extremely unlikely anyone will ever counter.

Relevance?

If he's town, outing himself at this point means he'll confirm someone everyday, and like qwints said, scum will take advantage of it and NK whoever he confirms.

I'm not seeing how "town influence on scum's night kill" is supposed to be a bad thing.

[iamausername]

Vote: Tenchi

You are not doc. Why are you lurking?

Looking back, Tenchi's end of D1 looks pretty bad. He votes FC, makes a couple posts essentially trying to rush the lynch, and then lurks the rest of the way. He seems to be continuing the lurking today.

Attacking him for "continuing the lurking today" when he has just said "I have been busy, I will catch up on Thursday" is pretty ridiculous. Being busy for a couple of days is not in any way a scum tell. This is pretty obvious piling on because you think Tenchi is the easy target.

Pressuring players defending each other on day 1 and asking for reasonable explanations for unreasonable defenses is not "rolefishing".

Demanding that another player claims based on an extremely weak case when they are nowhere near a lynch, though,

that

is rolefishing.

Vote: kikuchiyo

dank also needs to die.

[iamausername]

If he had time to contribute something meaningful, why would he even need to tell us he was busy?

Vote Count Two

Tenchi: 2 (kikuchiyo, qwints)
kikuchiyo: 1 (iamausername)
dank: 1 (SerialClergyman)

Not Voting: 4 (dank, Gwynplaine, Nikanor, Tenchi)

With 8 alive it's 5 to lynch.

Current Deadline: Monday, August 10 4:00 PM EST

[iamausername]

Tenchi is not "not around". He is here and he is avoiding this game for some reason.

He said he's busy, and will be back Thursday. What makes you think he's lying?

[iamausername]

The only thing stopping me voting for kiku is that in the last game I played with her she was scum and she played quite differently.. She was much more reserved and only made the odd insightful comment. She is so aggressive here it's really a marked difference.

Can I get a link to that game?

For those not voting Tenchi: Why are you so confident that he is not scum? What exactly has he done that is "pro-town"?

Not voted for a claimed information role, for one.

The case on Tenchi is not "lurking".

Thinking that masons shouldn't claim on D1 is not a scum tell.

Tenchi voted a claimed power role yesterday, yes, but so did

everybody else in the game

.

I'm not seeing any other points besides "lurking".

Once you accept that you may realize that.. oh wait. You [SC] are most likely scum.

Since when?

[iamausername]

I thought that dank was on Tenchi's wagon, not qwints, I'm totally wrong. Sorry about that dank.

dank might not actually be voting Tenchi, but he is still very much on the wagon in spirit.

[iamausername]

I think you [SC] are town.

Again, I ask; since when?

[iamausername]

WTH am I being attacked for lurking when there are others who are lurking? (And I need to confirm whether those people are actually lurking.)

Nikanor's been posting a whole lot elsewhere on site, but not here. We definitely need to hear some opinions from him today.

For those not voting Tenchi: Why are you so confident that he is not scum?

What exactly has he done that is "pro-town"?

Not voted for a claimed information role, for one.

??? Clarify ???

Lowell was a claimed information role. You did not vote for him following his claim. This is something pro-town (or at least something not anti-town) that you have done in this game, unlike kiku, dank, qwints, Nikanor or Gwyn.

---

So anyway, maybe I'm just being a sucker, but I'm finding kiku's recent AtE-laden posts somewhat convincing. In particular, this:

I am fine with being lynched as I am not someone you want in lylo at this point anyways.

is not something I see coming from scum kiku.

Now, I'm tempted to try to get a wagon going on dank to see if qwints also dives onto that one with reckless abandon, but I think I'd rather cut out the middle man and

Unvote, Vote: qwints

[iamausername]

Really? You've never seen scum suggest their own lynch before?

I haven't seen scum

seriously

suggest their own lynch before. I've seen them do the "Go ahead and lynch me, you'll regret it!" thing, but that is really not what kiku was doing. She presented an actual valid reason why it might be a good idea to lynch her. This makes me not want to lynch her.

Nice work throwing up a bunch of irrelevant statistics to try to prove that I am wrong, but I'm not voting you because you have made too many votes. Try again.

[iamausername]

iam - does it matter ot you that kiku didn't follow through with her game analysis?

I'm hoping that she will follow through with it in the near future. That kind of thing takes a bit of time to put together, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt for now.

Could you be more open about your reason for voting qwints?

Probably.



Oh, you mean now? OK. I was voting qwints for a while yesterday, because I felt like his reasons for voting Hero applied equally to me, yet he was completely ignoring me. The best explanation for this seemed to be that the Hero wagon had some support, while mine did not. His response was fairly sound, and there was other stuff going on that seemed more fruitful, so I dropped it.

However, today, two notable wagons have occurred and qwints has been on both. This reminded me of my initial suspicion, since he was now showing a pattern of such behaviour, so I went back and checked out his vote history. Guess what I discovered? qwints also managed to be on both the Far_Cry AND the Lowell wagons yesterday. And it wasn't even a case of "OH NOES WE CAN'T LYNCH CLAIMED DOCTOR, BUT FUCK HIDERS FOR NO LOGICAL REASON"; he voted Far_Cry

after

the claim, but still managed to find his way to getting Lowell lynched.

Basically, if there is a popular wagon in this game, there you will find qwints.

Also, he seems annoyed by the fact that I suddenly think kiku is town. I believe that I have presented a delicious mislynch to him on a silver platter and then yanked it away again just as he was about to take the first bite.

[iamausername]

Voting people for bandwagoning is anti-town. It gives you an excuse to use a chainsaw defense without looking of the merits on a given player.

Voting people for indiscriminately bandwagonning anyone they have the opportunity to bandwagon based on extremely weak cases is pro-town. I'm not defending without looking at the merits; I have looked at the merits of your cases. There aren't any.

Kiku's meltdown was completely out-of-character from her day 1 play.

Why is this scummy, exactly? Do you think her alignment changed overnight?

As I've already pointed out, I did not vote more often than other players.

As I've already pointed out, this is completely irrelevant.

I think a re-read will show that I opposed a D1 FC lynch for policy reasons, became willing to lynch anyway due to a plausible scenario where FC was scum.

Yeah, let's take a look at that 'plausible scenario', shall we? What it basically amounts to is "kiku and dank are being scummy! They must be FC's scum partners!". The only way any of this is a case against FC is if you assume that at least one of kiku/dank is scum. It doesn't make any sense to vote for him on this basis when dank and kiku's alignments are both unknown.

iamusername - do you think they'd be more likely to be on the FC wagon, the Lowell wagon or neither?

Well, looking at the end of day vote count, I think it's safe to say scum were on one wagon or the other.

I don't see you or Tenchi as likely scum, and everyone else was on the Lowell wagon, ergo, I think it much more likely that scum were on the Lowell wagon.

What do you make of qwints' Lowell vote, given it was second on a bandwagon that looked a little unlikely to get up at the time?

I think he expected the FC wagon to go through to a lynch at that point, and wanted to disassociate himself from it, so he hopped onto the most convenient target. The fact that this managed to net him another dead power role was just a lucky bonus.

Kiku's attitude towards the FC lynch was bizarre and is scummy.

And again. Could you possibly make a case that does not consist entirely of "kiku's behaviour is bizarre and scummy"? Like maybe explain

why

her behaviour is scummy?

[iamausername]

Nikanor, who is scum?

[iamausername]

a seemingly random lurker vote

oxymoron

[iamausername]

I'm shocked,

shocked

that Kiku has reversed her position on Iam to increase the chance of saving her own skin. Doing it 45 minutes after proclaiming confidence in your position is just icing on the cake.

How exactly is that saving her own skin more than either a) continuing to claim that I am probable scum, or b) never claiming that I am probable scum in the first place?

[iamausername]

Option 2 is not available to her. As for option 1, it was worth seeming scummily inconsistent in order to turn the wagon on me into the leading one.

OK, could you answer the question again, only this time, don't assume that kiku calling me scummy was somehow set in stone and totally outside of her control?

Or, in other words, could you actually answer the question?

[iamausername]

Haha, rockin'. In one way I'm glad for my limited access right now, because I was actually somewhat buying the vig claim and if I'd started arguing that before qwints claimed SK, he might not have done so. But on the other hand, I won't get a chance to do a detailed reread in light of this claim before the deadline, which sucks.

So, yeah, if we're dealing with a 3-man scum group, we can't afford to lynch qwints today. I think 3:1:8 with a lover pair would be pretty damn stacked against the town, but I'd still rather exercise caution and aim for the mafia today.

qwints says he'll take our directions, but I think it would be better to leave him to make his own decisions, because we don't want the other scum to know who he's going to kill.

Unvote, Vote: dank

[iamausername]

Does anybody think a No Lynch would be a good idea at this point?
Does anybody think a massclaim would be a good idea at this point?

If yes to both questions, which should come first?

dank/Gwyn is my top pick for the scumteam based on my memory of events, but I've actually got a decent amount of internet time over the next couple of days, and I will obviously take the opportunity to do an actual thorough analysis, which might change my opinion.

[iamausername]

No lynch: It might lead to a town loss depending on how many werewolves there are. I remember we were debating on 3 or 2 on a team, and it would mean that we would defiantly lose if there were at least 3 wolves.

If there were three of them, they would have already won. We can be sure that there have to be two of them at this point.

Mass Claim: With all the dead power roles it would be good idea to claim, especially if we do have a seer/cop with some guilty results (or confirmed townies if they are alive still) The issue comes when someone counter claims (and if it's scum or if scum fake claims and the real seer c-claims). Again this is a risky gambit for lylo.

Right now, our odds of lynching scum are 1/3 (or 2/5 after a no lynch and a scum kill). If we massclaimed, and there were two conflicting claims, we could be sure that one of the two claimants was scum, thus upping our odds to 1/2. That would be a good thing.

We also might run into all V-Townies since so many power roles died.

True, but there's no net loss there. We come out of the massclaim in exactly the same situation we were in before doing it; the fact that it

might

gain us nothing is not a reason not to do it.

FTR, my opinion on massclaim/no lynch is a definite yes on both counts, and that massclaim should come first.

[iamausername]

So, a couple of days ago I wrote a post for this game, but annoyingly, the site went down right in the middle of my already brief window of access, so the post was lost. Anyway, the gist was:

- I completed a reread of the game while I actually had decent access, and I have renewed confidence that dank is obvscum, and Gwyn is probably his partner. An actual case will be on the way whenever my shiny new internet arrives (it's in the mail. true story.)

- DTMaster, quoting role PMs from a different ongoing game would be breaking two rules at once, so really don't do that.

- DTMaster, if you are town, then lynching you will lose us the game, so self-voting should not be any kind of consideration at this point. Don't do that either.

I think that was all.

[iamausername]

No worries, Drake.

iamusername, how's that internet coming?

I got my new internet a couple of days ago, and actually had about 80% of my case all typed up, then I stupidly left for work without copying it into a notepad file or anything, and when I came home, the computer had restarted itself for some Windows update and it was all lost. Very annoying.

Have started again (in a notepad file, this time), will probably be done within the next 24 hours or so. It will be a nice "welcome back" present for dank.

[iamausername]

I've decided to break this down into five page chunks, for ease of reading. Right then, from the top.

Pages 1-5:

Post #42: nadroj contradicts himself. Is a third vote on a wagon scummy or not? Apparently, it both is and isn't at the same time. Some early fencesitting here.

Post #91 looks like a classic newbie cop tell. Pointing this out as it's a possible explanation for Nikanor's death, which did seem an odd choice. This doesn't implicate anyone in particular.

Post #105 from dank: "I've laid out my reasons for finding you suspicious over several posts, including 1. your ugly post showing no initiative to scum hunt, 2. your overdefensiveness, which should not be there this early in the game unless you've got something to hide, 3. your insistant defense of FC, which also doesn't have much of a reason, 4. your lack of any content until lately 5. your large number of posts without any content (keep up appearances). There may be more i'm not remembering."

Reasons 1, 3 and 5 all appear to be the same reason, which means he's trying to make it look like his case has more substance than it actually does. Also "overdefensiveness" is a totally crap reason always and forever.

Post #106: Nadroj Jumps on a Wagon, Part I: Hero Edition.

Post #119: Again, overdefensiveness is a bullshit attack. And here dank basically admits that he is aware of this: "There's nothing wrong with defending yourself." And yet he continues to attack Hero for doing it anyway. Scummy.

Post #123: This is a good post. Yes, I'm blowing my own trumpet. Deal with it. OK, really I'm linking because I missed the "case that has nothing to do with you" thing this time round, and that is another example of dank making bullshit arguments against Hero.

Post #124: "He's trying to argue his way out of it, and refusing to listen to another opinion that people might share that isn't his own." When that opinion is 'Hero is scum', that's hardly a point against him.

---

And a general summary of pages 1-5:

The major event thus far is pretty much the assault against Hero for defending FC. We've got kiku kicking it off, then dank takes her initial spark and runs with it, adding a ton of completely terrible arguments in the process. nadroj hops on a little later with no original thoughts on the matter.

SerialClergyman isn't in the game yet (his predecessor really didn't do anything noteworthy). Ditto DTMaster, although I believe his predecessor (Tenchi) actually does do some stuff later.

Mostly, I think the way the Hero wagon went down points against a kiku/dank team. These two are pretty much sharing a brain at this point, and I think scum, especially a team with only two members, would not take the risk of tying themselves together so strongly on a case that they couldn't be sure the town was going to buy into. Once there's a townie or two in there, sure, they might both drive the wagon, but at the point dank joined in, the only reaction to kiku's Hero case was from Mokina, who obviously did not support it.

[iamausername]

Pages 6-10:

Post #141: kiku tries to get an excedingly premature claim from Hero. This is still a very scummy post.

Post #148: Ugh, terrible post. I think this is one of the best examples of something dank does a lot in his arguments with Hero: he's not arguing to try to gain insight into anyone's alignment, or to convince anyone else of his points, or anything else that would actually be helpful to the town. He's just arguing for the sake of winning an argument.

Post #174 is where kiku notes that Mokina seems to know Hero is town. People have said "kiku caught an informed minority group, they just weren't scum", and I thought that was false because she thought Hero and FC were the masons, but she actually did.

Post #194: The end of this one is one of the big things that make me think dank and nadroj are scum together. dank addresses four people at the end of this post. Three of them get asked probing questions. One of them (nadroj), just gets told "Don't do X again". My interpretation: the three town players, dank is trying to get them to say something that he can use against them, but his scum partner, he doesn't want him to say something that will draw suspicion, hence, he just gets an instruction on what not to do.

Basically, what I see here is dank coaching a newbie partner.

Post #199: Nadroj Jumps on a Wagon, Part II: Mokina Edition. This one is particularly scummy, because he shows some support back in #192, but doesn't actually join the wagon until after my vote is there. See above re: scum not wanting to tie themselves to a case until they know it has town backing.

Post #204: nadroj attacks kiku, despite being on the Mokina wagon with her. Trying to have it both ways here. This points against a kiku/nadroj team, I think.

Post #237: kiku's reaction to the mason claim. Compare and contrast with:

Post #240: dank's reaction to the mason claim. kiku says she'll be playing with the assumption that Mokina and Hero are town for the time being (the right thing to do). dank says claiming masons "wouldn't even be that bold of a scum move, just a very smart one" (no), and will not push a lynch on them, but will continue to snipe at their credibility any chance he gets. I mean "pay attention to them to see if it all adds up".

Post #241: Nadroj Jumps on a Wagon, Part III: Unvote Edition. Yes, it still counts. Shut up.

Post #243: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #245: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #247: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #249: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons. Look, I know these four posts are all the same argument. I'm going somewhere with this, you'll see later.

---

And a general summary of pages 6-10:

dank makes a... wait, sorry. SC and DTM still don't exist. dank goes V/LA for much of this section, which leaves kiku carrying the weight of the Hero case, which turns into the Mokina case and actually starts making reasonable sense. nadroj continues to bring nothing new to the table and ride the current of popular opinion.

The big thing here is the reactions to the mason claim, which is when kiku and dank stop being so interchangable, and the latter emerges as the scum in the pair of them. kiku doesn't drop her suspicion entirely, but realises that attacking Hero/Mokina is not a productive approach on Day 1. dank starts sulking because they took his mislynch away. I mean, he

says

he's going to do what kiku actually does, but... not so much.

But I am getting ahead of myself a bit here, page 10 just has the very first reactions to the mason claim.

[iamausername]

Pages 11-15:

Post #251: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #255: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #257: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #261: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #263: kiku points out that Mokina made the breadcrumb, but Hero made the claim, which is a very good point, and one that definitely makes me think she's town.

First of all, this is reinforcing the credibility of the masons, which is obviously more pro-town than undermining it, like dank. But more importantly, it shows that kiku is actually

thinking

about whether or not Mokina and Hero's behaviour matched up with their claim. If she was scum, she wouldn't need to do this, as she'd have already known it was true. So I think that not only would kiku be unlikely to actually point this out as scum, I think she'd be very unlikely to even spot it in the first place.

Post #265: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #270: Nadroj Jumps on a Wagon, Part IV: Lowell Edition. This is the one where people finally start to take notice.

Post #279: dank makes a post. Fair and balanced, y'see. I'm not ignoring his other posts.

Post #292: nadroj suggests that non-contribution can't be equated with scummy posts. Wrong, obviously, but also, go back 20 posts or so, and hey, there's nadroj equating non-contribution with scummy posts while talking about Lowell.

Post #295: Another dank post that's not attacking masons. He's found a good alternative mislynch in FC now.

Post #296: Nadroj Jumps on a Wagon, Part V: Far_Cry Edition. And once again, he voices tentative support, but doesn't actually apply his vote until there are some townies to join. We really should have lynched this guy on Day One.

Post #299: dank switches his vote to nadroj, and still manages to reinforce my belief that they are scum together, by not actually building a case, and instead saying "nadroj, this is what you need to do to stop yourself getting lynched." Again, obvious coaching here.

Post #304: kiku displays some major tunnelvision on FC, and defends nadroj for not being Tenchi, basically. This is not a good post.

Post #309: Hey, it's Tenchi! He's ten pages behind, and doesn't offer any great insight, but there's nothing terribly bad in here either.

Post #313: nadroj does a List Of All The Players. dank gets absolutely no suspicion whatsoever from him, unlike every other person.

Post #316: So, nadroj did what dank told him to, and dank acts like he isn't relenting, but he is now "torn between nad and FC". This one looks like it ought to point against a dank/nadroj team, but that would assume that dank's actions later on would actually bear any resemblance to what he's saying here.

Post #327: Tenchi getting caught up brings back pointless arguments about the utility of mason claims. Noting that kiku urges everyone to get off this and get back to scumhunting. :goodposting:

---

Summary of pages 11-15:

Fallout from the mason claims paints kiku in a good light, dank in a really bad light, as I said. Tenchi is finally starting to appear, and SerialClergyman just replaced in, so next section will actually have a full complement of (still living) players, woo. nadroj is looking ridiculously scummy, which has dank attacking him, and kiku defending him in favour of attacking Far_Cry. And yet, dank still looks much more like he is scum with nadroj. It's quite impressive how he manages that.

I'll admit, I remembered dank's undermining the credibility of the masons kept on longer than it did, so either I was misremembering, or he's just on a temporary break and there'll be more of that in the following pages. I'll keep you posted.

---

I am off to work now, but I'll continue when I get back.

[iamausername]

Can I ask if you're writing from a foregone conclusion or if you are changing your thoughts as you write?

Bit of both, really. Like, the ultimate conclusion that dank/Gwyn is the scumteam, that's not going to change. But before doing this, I was thinking dank was the more likely scum of the two, wheras at this point, I think it's Gwyn, because the possibility that Gwyn is scum with someone besides dank is much much higher than the possibility that dank is scum with someone besides Gwyn.

Also, do you have an agenda re: kiku's status at all?

My agenda is to seek the truth. Gut says she's town, and I'm pointing out whatever I find that makes me trust that, but there have definitely been some scummy actions from her too, and I'm bringing those up as well. kiku/Gwyn is the second most likely pair IMO, I'm just trying to figure out exactly how likely it is.

---

Pages 16-20:

Post #391: SerialClergyman's first proper post. Backing the FC wagon, and suggesting that Mokina and Hero could be scum with him, which is terribly, horribly wrong, but not something that scum would have any particular motivation to propose, as FC was town. Rather glosses over nadroj's play, despite it fitting into much the same mold as FC and Wiirdo, who he does attack.

Post #396: kiku agrees with SC's wrongness.

Post #397: Of course, so does dank. And shifts his vote off the nadroj wagon and back onto FC, despite noting in this very post that he knows that FC plays like this all the time. Note that this vote moved the FC/nadroj standings from 4-4 to 5-3, and is thus pretty directly responsible for the dissolution of the nadroj wagon.

Post #403: dank is quite rightly called out by Hero for switching his vote from someone he supposedly thinks is genuinely scummy to a policy lynch, and his explanation here is completely inadequate.

Post #438: dank explains why FC would make a good lynch on the assumption that he is town. Like, there's a couple of "oh he's scummy, and it would be good to lynch scum" comments, but they pretty much appear to have been tacked on as an afterthought. I think he's pre-emptively defending himself for being partially responsible for a town lynch, because he already knows FC will flip town.

Post #447: Whur hurr what? "Doc is such a ridiculously common role that I can't see scum trying to fake claim it"

?????????????????????????????????

I don't even know.

Post #458: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons. I knew there'd be another one!

OK, actually he also says "I'm fine with a nad lynch", which is obviously, obviously not true. Before FC's claim, dank was claiming that FC and nadroj were equally scummy to him, and made a whole big deal about what a great struggle he was undergoing trying to decide between them, until he eventually threw his lot in with the FC wagon, after much wailing and rending of garments.

Here is a logical approach that a pro-town player holding the opinions that dank claimed to hold would take:

- Far_Cry just claimed doctor.
- I am absolutely against lynching a claimed doctor.
- nadroj has been equally scummy with Far_Cry.
- I should vote nadroj.

Here is what dank does:

- Far_Cry has just claimed doctor.
- I am absolutely against lynching a claimed doctor.
- oh shit oh shit I didn't actually want to get my buddy lynched what do I do what do I do scramble scramble somebody please find me alternative wagon fuck fuck fuck oh phew Vote Lowell.

Why does dank's vote not return to nadroj after FC claims doctor? Because nadroj is his scum partner. Just you try to find me another reason that makes any sense.

Post #464: Just for good measure, dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #475: Tenchi is on board with lynching the claimed doc, thus demonstrating that he is town.

No really, even given that the doc lynch had pro-town backing from Mokina at this point, I don't think scum would be bold enough to go for that when Tenchi did.

Post #480: SC calls dank out in his lack of nadroj vote. Two thumbs up.

Post #493: I love the "those guys did it too" defnse at the end of this one. dank can't actually defend against this attack because it's so obviously right, so he just tries to spread the blame around.

---

Summary of pages 16-20:

SC strongly pushes the FC lynch on the basis that Mokina and Hero are probable partners with him. Not highlighting all his posts and saying they serve no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the mason claim, because that's not true. They serve the purpose of trying to get FC lynched. Which is not exactly a wildly pro-town seeming agenda, either, of course, but his suspicion seems genuine, and he does make a good case.

But mostly, what is happening here is dank completely flailing when FC claims doc, because he clearly does not actually want to lynch nadroj. This here is probably the most convincing evidence of the dank/nadroj team.

[iamausername]

Pages 21-25:

Post #501: kiku suddenly completely changes her mind about lynching claimed doc. Oddly out of character.

Post #509: Gwyn replaces in for nadroj, makes a big useless hunk of IIoA.

Post #511: Definite towntell from kiku here; this really looks like a post from someone who is expecting FC to flip scum.

Post #512: Gwyn agrees that the case on nadroj was sound. Not really a lot else he could do, I don't think. His first line of thought on why he isn't hammering FC is "that would make me look bad". He expresses this thought with a "Not because it would look bad for me if he flipped town", but it's still the first thing on his mind. Not other opinions on who is scum.

Post #517: SC makes an awesome post calling out all the non-FC voters in their "cotton-wool wrapped shame" for doing shit all to provide an alternative lynch.

Post #523: kiku randomly unvotes. I didn't understand the vote in the first place, but I don't understand the unvote either.

Post #528: kiku explains her unvote; she doesn't want the replacements to be able to swoop in and hammer without posting much content first. I kind of see where she's coming from, I guess. It's the 'can't see the forest for the trees' mentality you often see where people foget that Day One is just Day One, and worry about the immediate negative effects of things while ignoring their long term benefits.

For example, lame already lurking replacement swoops in and hammers FC. Immediate negative; dead doc. Long term benefit; hider stays hidden and maybe we only have three dead power roles at the start of Day Two instead of four.

Post #529: Gwyn posts an actual opinion. SC has been somewhat hypocritical. Not a terrible point.

Post #533: dank quickly pipes in to say that he brought up the same thing about SC earlier, then apparently forgot about it until Gwyn reminded him. So, dank supports Gwyn in an attempt to get an alternative to the FC lynch. Remember that, and compare it to dank's play for the remainder of the day.

Post #536: SC's defence is solid.

Post #537: dank is not willing to let this new line of attack go, because then he might have to go back to voting the guy who was equally scummy as FC, who he was perfectly willing to lynch until he claimed doc. And as established, he definitely does not want to do that.

Post #540: dank again tries to explain his lack of nadroj vote, and again, it's completely inadequate. Didn't vote because nadroj was being replaced, he says. FC claimed doc in Post #442. It wasn't announced that nadroj was being replaced until Post #486, nearly 24 hours later. dank posted plenty in between these two posts. Unless he's claiming that he knew nadroj would be replaced before the mod did, this just doesn't add up.

Post #543: Lowell is much better at this game than most people give him credit for.

Post #544: Hey, look at that, now Gwyn is using the "These guys are doing it too" defense as well! Assuming I turn out to be right in this game, I'm going to look out for that in future, it seems like a really solid scum tell.

Also, Gwyn is arguing that self-preservation is not scummy. Kind of, but let's remember that he's talking about that fact that he is refusing to hammer Far_Cry out of self-preservation, because that will make him look bad tomorrow; this is an indication that he already knows FC will flip town.

Post #546: Mokina's talking about Far_Cry being replaced by ThAdmiral here, but somehow, I think this post is still very relevant today.

Post #547: Nikanor introduces a Lowell vote into the mix. Let's see what happens.

Post #562: qwints hops on, urges others to join him.

Post #564: Hero joins.

Post #565: Oh, would you look at that, dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons. "What happened to scumhunting, hero?" Pot, kettle, etc.

Post #568: kiku joins as well, declaring Lowell a "prototypical policy lynch". She's really been all over the place lately.

Post #573: dank continues to insist that voting for an alternative lynch is much scummier for a player who doesn't want to lynch a claimed doc than sitting on your hands without a vote anywhere, throwing stones at anyone who tries to get any kind of forward momentum going. dank is wrong.

Post #581: Gwyn hops on the Lowell wagon. For no reason but the fact that he is not FC. Which dank was just attacking Hero for doing, less than a page ago. dank doesn't attack Gwyn for doing this. Shocker.

Post #590: kiku declares that "hiders are bad news". I'm going to get a headache reading the inherent stupidity of all the responses to Lowell's claim again. But the thing is, since FC and Lowell were both town, scum would probably post their genuine opinions on which of the two would make a better lynch, because at this point, it's a win/win situation. Either way, a power role ends up dead. So I don't think it's particularly useful to look at these posts.

And that's the end of Day One. There's still a bit of page 25 left, but it makes a lot more sense to stop this chunk here. No summary this time, because I don't think there's anything I haven't covered perfectly well in the above.

[iamausername]

Day Two:

Post #621: The last sentence here is damning enough on its own, as clear scum feigning ignorance about the nature of the scum in this game...

Post #622: ...but this just seals the deal. So, apparently, dank read the night scene, and posted #621, then decided for some reason to go back and read the opening post of the game, discovered that werewolves were mention there, and posted to correct his 'mistake'. And he did all this within the space of a minute. I struggle to believe this.

Post #627: SC has some really good logic here on the likely scum attitudes in light of the fact that both wagons were town. This is a really good post.

Post #631: Following on the heels of SC calling dank and kiku the most likely scum in the above, Gwyn says he is "losing his town read on kikuchiyo". He has bad, bad reasons for this.

kiku was annoyed at the lovers for lying and claiming masons, because if they'd told the truth, we could have lynched one. This is an epically dumb suggestion, yes, but what is the scum motivation? The lovers were already dead when kiku suggested that, so it's not an attempt to get any town role lynched.

"I also thought her call for a day 2 doctor counterclaim in 579 was a bit iffy, although I'll confess to not thinking it through all that carefully." Well, maybe you should try thinking things through carefully before you go using them as scumtells.

Gwyn also declines to comment on the hider/doc debate on the basis that he is inexperienced. Cop out. SerialClergyman, dank, and kikuchiyo have all been on the site for considerably shorter time than Gwyn, and I don't think any of them have played an overwhelmingly larger number of games than Gwyn in that time, and yet none of them had any trouble commenting on it.

Post #637: dank joins in with the sudden Tenchi wagon that kiku and qwints start. Says Tenchi "seems to be continuing the lurking today" when Tenchi has just said that he will be away for a couple of days.

Post #651: Gwyn speaks out against the Tenchi wagon, but with a bunch of "I'm willing to be convinced" if he decides he needs to hop on later. Also, directs the point about attacking him for lurking when he said he'd be busy at kiku, even though dank is actually the one who did this. kiku attacked him for lurking, yes, but she was talking about his lurking on Day One. Bit of sly misdirection going on there, I think.

Post #652: OK, now kiku actually is attacking him for it. Apparently Gwyn is psychic.

Post #657: kiku starts going into a bit of a meltdown, and OMGUSes SC out of nowhere. I still think her frustration here seems genuine, if aimed in the wrong direction.

Post #658: Gwyn again puts the Tenchi wagon solely on kiku/qwints, ignoring dank's involvement entirely.

Post #675: Still think that kiku arguing for her own lynch in the way that she does here is not something she'd do as scum.

Post #676: Now that kiku is looking like she's going to be lynched, dank suddenly remembers how he was suspicious of nadroj and throws together a rehashed case against Gwyn. Funny how dank only votes Gwyn when there is absolutely no risk of that vote resulting in a lynch, no?

Post #699: Gwyn is the first one to join me in voting qwints on Day Two, but I find his case really lacking. He says qwints keeps flipping between defending and attacking kiku, yet all the examples he points out bar one are qwints attacking her.

Post #707: SC doesn't vote qwints, but does voice support for the wagon, and does so for good and original reasons.

Post #711: DTMaster is finally here! And he also supports the qwints wagon with a good reason of his own.

Post #724: I do believe Nikanor nailed all three scum in this post. This could also explain why he died last night.

Post #811: kiku unvotes after qwints claims SK. I really think the scum would be pushing the "He's claimed a scum role, so he's definitely scum, so we should lynch him!" line. Which is what all of dank, DTM, SC and Gwyn did.

---

And that's all for Day Two, and therefore all. I don't have anything to say about Day Three's posts so far that I haven't already said.

So, let me know how right you think I am, because I think I am pretty goddamn right.

[iamausername]

Gwyn, do you think dank is scum? If so, who's his partner? If not, who is scum?

[iamausername]

Post 512. I've addressed that a couple of times now. You may not like my explanation of what I meant, but I can't give you another one. I know what I meant. I think it was clear, and I think my subsequent explanation was equally clear.

It was perfectly clear. You wanted to make very sure that everybody knew you

weren't

concerned about looking bad, which is pretty much something you would only do if you actually

were

concerned about looking bad.

Post 544. This is not a "defense" in any sense of the word that I'm familiar with, so it can't actually be a

tu quoque

defense.

Having looked up 'tu quoque', I don't think that's what I was talking about at all. As I understand it, tu quoque is accusing your attacker of doing the same thing he is accusing you of. I was talking about this:

Anyway, right now there are six people by my count who aren't voting for ThAdmiral, not including ThAdmiral himself. Maybe you should start browbeating some of them.

It's not accusing your attacker of doing the same thing as you, it's accusing a bunch of other people of doing it and suggesting he should be attacking them instead of you.

It does have the same problem as a tu quoque defence though, in that in both cases, you are tacitly agreeing that the accuser has a completely valid point against you.

Post 581. Well, not "no reason at all." I was swayed by kikuchiyo's argument in 579. As I said.

I said "no reason but the fact that he is not FC", not "no reason at all". And since the kiku argument in question deals entirely with reasons not to lynch FC, and not at all with reasons to lynch Lowell, thanks for proving my point, I guess.

Posts 651 and 658. At that point, dank wasn't on the Tenchi bandwagon (although as I pointed out later, he was certainly cheerleading for it). Since I was talking about the people who were voting for Tenchi vs. the people who weren't, I couldn't very well have put dank into the first category.

No, you weren't talking about "people who were voting Tenchi", you were talking about "people who were accusing Tenchi of lurking during the time he had said he'd be away".

People who fit into that group, at the time of your post: dank
People you put into that group, in your post: kiku

You were attributing dank's arguments to someone else entirely, and then calling that person scummy for using those arguments.

Post 699. I still stand by my case here. Maybe I quoted too many "attacking" posts but there are cleary

two

"buddying" posts there, not one: #20 and #56. With at least one "attacking" post before, in between, and after them, I think I'm justified in calling this behavior "alternating." Also, you'll note that his shifting attitude toward kikuchiyo was not my only reason for voting for him.

Fair enough, I did miss the second buddying post. But, yes, I'm aware that there was another reason in that post. I found that reason to be poor as well, and thus found the case as a whole to be lacking.

Oh, and for 631. As of this writing I have completed exactly one game of mafia, Newbie 707. I was in Mini 777 and had to replace out after about a week due to illness. Those games and this one are the only games of mafia I have ever played anywhere, online or face-to-face. Not playing the newbie card here, just setting the facts straight.

kiku can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe she's only completed two newbie games at this point. dank and SC can feel free to chime in with their experience level too.

Besides, even if you'd never played mafia before, it would

still

a copout. People presented reasons for and against lynching a claimed hider. If you didn't understand those arguments, why wouldn't you ask for clarification? If you didn't know exactly what a hider is, why wouldn't you look it up? Inexperience is no excuse for completely ignoring the issue. I think you didn't want to get involved because you didn't want to draw attention to yourself.

[iamausername]

Post 805. Pre-emptive reasoning to lynhc an sk over mafia. I'm gonna shake things up here and

Vote: SerialClergyman

How is this worse than everyone else who argued for lynching the SK?

How does it supercede all the evidence I just presented against the dank/Gwyn team?

[iamausername]

Yeah, I'll admit that even though I started out trying to be fair and balanced, but by then end of it, confirmation bias had totally set in.

This fact doesn't particularly bother me.

[iamausername]

I don't know if I can be bothered to wait much longer for dank. I certainly can't be bothered to wait for a replacement to catch up on the thread and inevitably have no way to answer for him. I think that would be a huge waste of time for everyone involved.

Gwyn - I would say that ~70% of the case against dank is his very suspicious interaction with you specifically. Things like his failure to vote you on day 1 after the claim - the only way I can explain that is if he is scum, and more specifically, scum with you. Same with his attacks on you that also included a shopping list of how to get the voteo ff you and look better - the only way that makes sense is if you're both scum together. There's a lot of reason to be suspicious of dank/gwyn, but not much to be suspicious of dank/???

So given you're claiming not to be his partner, why do you think he's scum?

Would like to hear Gwyn's answer to this, too.

[iamausername]

If I had a hammer
I'd hammer in the morning
I'd hammer in the evening
All over this land
I'd hammer out danger
I'd hammer out a warning
I'd hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land

Vote: dank

[iamausername]

I'm still really shocked that it wasn't dank/Gwyn, I think that's about the most convinced I've ever been that I've found the scumteam besides the one game newbie where I was cop and had them mod confirmed as scum. It just made so much sense.

Anyway, congrats, you two. Gwyn did very well to pull himself out of the hole nadroj dug for him, and SC was just excellent all around. Definitely a well deserved victory, I think.

[iamausername]

game newbie

Oops, accidentally I the reversed words!