Mini 811: Foggy Londontown Mafia - Over!

[iamausername]

So, a couple of days ago I wrote a post for this game, but annoyingly, the site went down right in the middle of my already brief window of access, so the post was lost. Anyway, the gist was:

- I completed a reread of the game while I actually had decent access, and I have renewed confidence that dank is obvscum, and Gwyn is probably his partner. An actual case will be on the way whenever my shiny new internet arrives (it's in the mail. true story.)

- DTMaster, quoting role PMs from a different ongoing game would be breaking two rules at once, so really don't do that.

- DTMaster, if you are town, then lynching you will lose us the game, so self-voting should not be any kind of consideration at this point. Don't do that either.

I think that was all.

[DraketheFake]

Hello all. Posting from my buddy's office. His wireless has been down all weekend. Will return in full capacity on Monday.

DTMaster: Please refrain from posting the PMs from other ongoing games. I'll elaborate on the ruling tomorrow if you'd like.

[DTMaster]

@Iam and Mod

I won't but I felt that the only real way to answer SC's 867 would force me to break this rule (other then WIFOM). I won't quote my PMs since I understand the rules.


@Iam
I would have if we weren't in lylo and 2 scum are running around. I might have did a foot in mouth situation against myself, but I still want to win.

If you can, redo that case with the quotes

[SerialClergyman]

I'm sorry my activity has been down, I'm finalising the buying of an apartment so I've been incredibly busy. Normal posting to resume shortly.

[kikuchiyo]

I am back. I will try to catch up tomorrow at some point, but we are still going to be settling in.

[DraketheFake]

Hello there everyone.

We are two days and counting to when dank will return. At that point, I will institute an official deadline and distribute prods as necessary. Sorry this game has stalled a bit, but the consensus seemed to be that we would wait for dank, so I think this is what had to end to happening.

Thanks for the patience.

[SerialClergyman]

No worries, Drake.

iamusername, how's that internet coming?

[iamausername]

No worries, Drake.

iamusername, how's that internet coming?

I got my new internet a couple of days ago, and actually had about 80% of my case all typed up, then I stupidly left for work without copying it into a notepad file or anything, and when I came home, the computer had restarted itself for some Windows update and it was all lost. Very annoying.

Have started again (in a notepad file, this time), will probably be done within the next 24 hours or so. It will be a nice "welcome back" present for dank.

[DTMaster]

Ouchies. Do you have a Gmail account? I save my long posts in a compose e-mail on Gmail since it:

1. Auto save
2. The tags save in Gmail and work properly.
3. Its amazing :3

[iamausername]

I've decided to break this down into five page chunks, for ease of reading. Right then, from the top.

Pages 1-5:

Post #42: nadroj contradicts himself. Is a third vote on a wagon scummy or not? Apparently, it both is and isn't at the same time. Some early fencesitting here.

Post #91 looks like a classic newbie cop tell. Pointing this out as it's a possible explanation for Nikanor's death, which did seem an odd choice. This doesn't implicate anyone in particular.

Post #105 from dank: "I've laid out my reasons for finding you suspicious over several posts, including 1. your ugly post showing no initiative to scum hunt, 2. your overdefensiveness, which should not be there this early in the game unless you've got something to hide, 3. your insistant defense of FC, which also doesn't have much of a reason, 4. your lack of any content until lately 5. your large number of posts without any content (keep up appearances). There may be more i'm not remembering."

Reasons 1, 3 and 5 all appear to be the same reason, which means he's trying to make it look like his case has more substance than it actually does. Also "overdefensiveness" is a totally crap reason always and forever.

Post #106: Nadroj Jumps on a Wagon, Part I: Hero Edition.

Post #119: Again, overdefensiveness is a bullshit attack. And here dank basically admits that he is aware of this: "There's nothing wrong with defending yourself." And yet he continues to attack Hero for doing it anyway. Scummy.

Post #123: This is a good post. Yes, I'm blowing my own trumpet. Deal with it. OK, really I'm linking because I missed the "case that has nothing to do with you" thing this time round, and that is another example of dank making bullshit arguments against Hero.

Post #124: "He's trying to argue his way out of it, and refusing to listen to another opinion that people might share that isn't his own." When that opinion is 'Hero is scum', that's hardly a point against him.

---

And a general summary of pages 1-5:

The major event thus far is pretty much the assault against Hero for defending FC. We've got kiku kicking it off, then dank takes her initial spark and runs with it, adding a ton of completely terrible arguments in the process. nadroj hops on a little later with no original thoughts on the matter.

SerialClergyman isn't in the game yet (his predecessor really didn't do anything noteworthy). Ditto DTMaster, although I believe his predecessor (Tenchi) actually does do some stuff later.

Mostly, I think the way the Hero wagon went down points against a kiku/dank team. These two are pretty much sharing a brain at this point, and I think scum, especially a team with only two members, would not take the risk of tying themselves together so strongly on a case that they couldn't be sure the town was going to buy into. Once there's a townie or two in there, sure, they might both drive the wagon, but at the point dank joined in, the only reaction to kiku's Hero case was from Mokina, who obviously did not support it.

[iamausername]

Pages 6-10:

Post #141: kiku tries to get an excedingly premature claim from Hero. This is still a very scummy post.

Post #148: Ugh, terrible post. I think this is one of the best examples of something dank does a lot in his arguments with Hero: he's not arguing to try to gain insight into anyone's alignment, or to convince anyone else of his points, or anything else that would actually be helpful to the town. He's just arguing for the sake of winning an argument.

Post #174 is where kiku notes that Mokina seems to know Hero is town. People have said "kiku caught an informed minority group, they just weren't scum", and I thought that was false because she thought Hero and FC were the masons, but she actually did.

Post #194: The end of this one is one of the big things that make me think dank and nadroj are scum together. dank addresses four people at the end of this post. Three of them get asked probing questions. One of them (nadroj), just gets told "Don't do X again". My interpretation: the three town players, dank is trying to get them to say something that he can use against them, but his scum partner, he doesn't want him to say something that will draw suspicion, hence, he just gets an instruction on what not to do.

Basically, what I see here is dank coaching a newbie partner.

Post #199: Nadroj Jumps on a Wagon, Part II: Mokina Edition. This one is particularly scummy, because he shows some support back in #192, but doesn't actually join the wagon until after my vote is there. See above re: scum not wanting to tie themselves to a case until they know it has town backing.

Post #204: nadroj attacks kiku, despite being on the Mokina wagon with her. Trying to have it both ways here. This points against a kiku/nadroj team, I think.

Post #237: kiku's reaction to the mason claim. Compare and contrast with:

Post #240: dank's reaction to the mason claim. kiku says she'll be playing with the assumption that Mokina and Hero are town for the time being (the right thing to do). dank says claiming masons "wouldn't even be that bold of a scum move, just a very smart one" (no), and will not push a lynch on them, but will continue to snipe at their credibility any chance he gets. I mean "pay attention to them to see if it all adds up".

Post #241: Nadroj Jumps on a Wagon, Part III: Unvote Edition. Yes, it still counts. Shut up.

Post #243: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #245: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #247: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #249: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons. Look, I know these four posts are all the same argument. I'm going somewhere with this, you'll see later.

---

And a general summary of pages 6-10:

dank makes a... wait, sorry. SC and DTM still don't exist. dank goes V/LA for much of this section, which leaves kiku carrying the weight of the Hero case, which turns into the Mokina case and actually starts making reasonable sense. nadroj continues to bring nothing new to the table and ride the current of popular opinion.

The big thing here is the reactions to the mason claim, which is when kiku and dank stop being so interchangable, and the latter emerges as the scum in the pair of them. kiku doesn't drop her suspicion entirely, but realises that attacking Hero/Mokina is not a productive approach on Day 1. dank starts sulking because they took his mislynch away. I mean, he

says

he's going to do what kiku actually does, but... not so much.

But I am getting ahead of myself a bit here, page 10 just has the very first reactions to the mason claim.

[iamausername]

Pages 11-15:

Post #251: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #255: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #257: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #261: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #263: kiku points out that Mokina made the breadcrumb, but Hero made the claim, which is a very good point, and one that definitely makes me think she's town.

First of all, this is reinforcing the credibility of the masons, which is obviously more pro-town than undermining it, like dank. But more importantly, it shows that kiku is actually

thinking

about whether or not Mokina and Hero's behaviour matched up with their claim. If she was scum, she wouldn't need to do this, as she'd have already known it was true. So I think that not only would kiku be unlikely to actually point this out as scum, I think she'd be very unlikely to even spot it in the first place.

Post #265: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #270: Nadroj Jumps on a Wagon, Part IV: Lowell Edition. This is the one where people finally start to take notice.

Post #279: dank makes a post. Fair and balanced, y'see. I'm not ignoring his other posts.

Post #292: nadroj suggests that non-contribution can't be equated with scummy posts. Wrong, obviously, but also, go back 20 posts or so, and hey, there's nadroj equating non-contribution with scummy posts while talking about Lowell.

Post #295: Another dank post that's not attacking masons. He's found a good alternative mislynch in FC now.

Post #296: Nadroj Jumps on a Wagon, Part V: Far_Cry Edition. And once again, he voices tentative support, but doesn't actually apply his vote until there are some townies to join. We really should have lynched this guy on Day One.

Post #299: dank switches his vote to nadroj, and still manages to reinforce my belief that they are scum together, by not actually building a case, and instead saying "nadroj, this is what you need to do to stop yourself getting lynched." Again, obvious coaching here.

Post #304: kiku displays some major tunnelvision on FC, and defends nadroj for not being Tenchi, basically. This is not a good post.

Post #309: Hey, it's Tenchi! He's ten pages behind, and doesn't offer any great insight, but there's nothing terribly bad in here either.

Post #313: nadroj does a List Of All The Players. dank gets absolutely no suspicion whatsoever from him, unlike every other person.

Post #316: So, nadroj did what dank told him to, and dank acts like he isn't relenting, but he is now "torn between nad and FC". This one looks like it ought to point against a dank/nadroj team, but that would assume that dank's actions later on would actually bear any resemblance to what he's saying here.

Post #327: Tenchi getting caught up brings back pointless arguments about the utility of mason claims. Noting that kiku urges everyone to get off this and get back to scumhunting. :goodposting:

---

Summary of pages 11-15:

Fallout from the mason claims paints kiku in a good light, dank in a really bad light, as I said. Tenchi is finally starting to appear, and SerialClergyman just replaced in, so next section will actually have a full complement of (still living) players, woo. nadroj is looking ridiculously scummy, which has dank attacking him, and kiku defending him in favour of attacking Far_Cry. And yet, dank still looks much more like he is scum with nadroj. It's quite impressive how he manages that.

I'll admit, I remembered dank's undermining the credibility of the masons kept on longer than it did, so either I was misremembering, or he's just on a temporary break and there'll be more of that in the following pages. I'll keep you posted.

---

I am off to work now, but I'll continue when I get back.

[SerialClergyman]

I think I see where you're going with this but I'll let you finish it before commenting further.

It's very, very impressive.

Can I ask if you're writing from a foregone conclusion or if you are changing your thoughts as you write? Also, do you have an agenda re: kiku's status at all?

[iamausername]

Can I ask if you're writing from a foregone conclusion or if you are changing your thoughts as you write?

Bit of both, really. Like, the ultimate conclusion that dank/Gwyn is the scumteam, that's not going to change. But before doing this, I was thinking dank was the more likely scum of the two, wheras at this point, I think it's Gwyn, because the possibility that Gwyn is scum with someone besides dank is much much higher than the possibility that dank is scum with someone besides Gwyn.

Also, do you have an agenda re: kiku's status at all?

My agenda is to seek the truth. Gut says she's town, and I'm pointing out whatever I find that makes me trust that, but there have definitely been some scummy actions from her too, and I'm bringing those up as well. kiku/Gwyn is the second most likely pair IMO, I'm just trying to figure out exactly how likely it is.

---

Pages 16-20:

Post #391: SerialClergyman's first proper post. Backing the FC wagon, and suggesting that Mokina and Hero could be scum with him, which is terribly, horribly wrong, but not something that scum would have any particular motivation to propose, as FC was town. Rather glosses over nadroj's play, despite it fitting into much the same mold as FC and Wiirdo, who he does attack.

Post #396: kiku agrees with SC's wrongness.

Post #397: Of course, so does dank. And shifts his vote off the nadroj wagon and back onto FC, despite noting in this very post that he knows that FC plays like this all the time. Note that this vote moved the FC/nadroj standings from 4-4 to 5-3, and is thus pretty directly responsible for the dissolution of the nadroj wagon.

Post #403: dank is quite rightly called out by Hero for switching his vote from someone he supposedly thinks is genuinely scummy to a policy lynch, and his explanation here is completely inadequate.

Post #438: dank explains why FC would make a good lynch on the assumption that he is town. Like, there's a couple of "oh he's scummy, and it would be good to lynch scum" comments, but they pretty much appear to have been tacked on as an afterthought. I think he's pre-emptively defending himself for being partially responsible for a town lynch, because he already knows FC will flip town.

Post #447: Whur hurr what? "Doc is such a ridiculously common role that I can't see scum trying to fake claim it"

?????????????????????????????????

I don't even know.

Post #458: dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons. I knew there'd be another one!

OK, actually he also says "I'm fine with a nad lynch", which is obviously, obviously not true. Before FC's claim, dank was claiming that FC and nadroj were equally scummy to him, and made a whole big deal about what a great struggle he was undergoing trying to decide between them, until he eventually threw his lot in with the FC wagon, after much wailing and rending of garments.

Here is a logical approach that a pro-town player holding the opinions that dank claimed to hold would take:

- Far_Cry just claimed doctor.
- I am absolutely against lynching a claimed doctor.
- nadroj has been equally scummy with Far_Cry.
- I should vote nadroj.

Here is what dank does:

- Far_Cry has just claimed doctor.
- I am absolutely against lynching a claimed doctor.
- oh shit oh shit I didn't actually want to get my buddy lynched what do I do what do I do scramble scramble somebody please find me alternative wagon fuck fuck fuck oh phew Vote Lowell.

Why does dank's vote not return to nadroj after FC claims doctor? Because nadroj is his scum partner. Just you try to find me another reason that makes any sense.

Post #464: Just for good measure, dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons.

Post #475: Tenchi is on board with lynching the claimed doc, thus demonstrating that he is town.

No really, even given that the doc lynch had pro-town backing from Mokina at this point, I don't think scum would be bold enough to go for that when Tenchi did.

Post #480: SC calls dank out in his lack of nadroj vote. Two thumbs up.

Post #493: I love the "those guys did it too" defnse at the end of this one. dank can't actually defend against this attack because it's so obviously right, so he just tries to spread the blame around.

---

Summary of pages 16-20:

SC strongly pushes the FC lynch on the basis that Mokina and Hero are probable partners with him. Not highlighting all his posts and saying they serve no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the mason claim, because that's not true. They serve the purpose of trying to get FC lynched. Which is not exactly a wildly pro-town seeming agenda, either, of course, but his suspicion seems genuine, and he does make a good case.

But mostly, what is happening here is dank completely flailing when FC claims doc, because he clearly does not actually want to lynch nadroj. This here is probably the most convincing evidence of the dank/nadroj team.

[iamausername]

Pages 21-25:

Post #501: kiku suddenly completely changes her mind about lynching claimed doc. Oddly out of character.

Post #509: Gwyn replaces in for nadroj, makes a big useless hunk of IIoA.

Post #511: Definite towntell from kiku here; this really looks like a post from someone who is expecting FC to flip scum.

Post #512: Gwyn agrees that the case on nadroj was sound. Not really a lot else he could do, I don't think. His first line of thought on why he isn't hammering FC is "that would make me look bad". He expresses this thought with a "Not because it would look bad for me if he flipped town", but it's still the first thing on his mind. Not other opinions on who is scum.

Post #517: SC makes an awesome post calling out all the non-FC voters in their "cotton-wool wrapped shame" for doing shit all to provide an alternative lynch.

Post #523: kiku randomly unvotes. I didn't understand the vote in the first place, but I don't understand the unvote either.

Post #528: kiku explains her unvote; she doesn't want the replacements to be able to swoop in and hammer without posting much content first. I kind of see where she's coming from, I guess. It's the 'can't see the forest for the trees' mentality you often see where people foget that Day One is just Day One, and worry about the immediate negative effects of things while ignoring their long term benefits.

For example, lame already lurking replacement swoops in and hammers FC. Immediate negative; dead doc. Long term benefit; hider stays hidden and maybe we only have three dead power roles at the start of Day Two instead of four.

Post #529: Gwyn posts an actual opinion. SC has been somewhat hypocritical. Not a terrible point.

Post #533: dank quickly pipes in to say that he brought up the same thing about SC earlier, then apparently forgot about it until Gwyn reminded him. So, dank supports Gwyn in an attempt to get an alternative to the FC lynch. Remember that, and compare it to dank's play for the remainder of the day.

Post #536: SC's defence is solid.

Post #537: dank is not willing to let this new line of attack go, because then he might have to go back to voting the guy who was equally scummy as FC, who he was perfectly willing to lynch until he claimed doc. And as established, he definitely does not want to do that.

Post #540: dank again tries to explain his lack of nadroj vote, and again, it's completely inadequate. Didn't vote because nadroj was being replaced, he says. FC claimed doc in Post #442. It wasn't announced that nadroj was being replaced until Post #486, nearly 24 hours later. dank posted plenty in between these two posts. Unless he's claiming that he knew nadroj would be replaced before the mod did, this just doesn't add up.

Post #543: Lowell is much better at this game than most people give him credit for.

Post #544: Hey, look at that, now Gwyn is using the "These guys are doing it too" defense as well! Assuming I turn out to be right in this game, I'm going to look out for that in future, it seems like a really solid scum tell.

Also, Gwyn is arguing that self-preservation is not scummy. Kind of, but let's remember that he's talking about that fact that he is refusing to hammer Far_Cry out of self-preservation, because that will make him look bad tomorrow; this is an indication that he already knows FC will flip town.

Post #546: Mokina's talking about Far_Cry being replaced by ThAdmiral here, but somehow, I think this post is still very relevant today.

Post #547: Nikanor introduces a Lowell vote into the mix. Let's see what happens.

Post #562: qwints hops on, urges others to join him.

Post #564: Hero joins.

Post #565: Oh, would you look at that, dank makes a post that serves no purpose but to snipe at the credibility of the masons. "What happened to scumhunting, hero?" Pot, kettle, etc.

Post #568: kiku joins as well, declaring Lowell a "prototypical policy lynch". She's really been all over the place lately.

Post #573: dank continues to insist that voting for an alternative lynch is much scummier for a player who doesn't want to lynch a claimed doc than sitting on your hands without a vote anywhere, throwing stones at anyone who tries to get any kind of forward momentum going. dank is wrong.

Post #581: Gwyn hops on the Lowell wagon. For no reason but the fact that he is not FC. Which dank was just attacking Hero for doing, less than a page ago. dank doesn't attack Gwyn for doing this. Shocker.

Post #590: kiku declares that "hiders are bad news". I'm going to get a headache reading the inherent stupidity of all the responses to Lowell's claim again. But the thing is, since FC and Lowell were both town, scum would probably post their genuine opinions on which of the two would make a better lynch, because at this point, it's a win/win situation. Either way, a power role ends up dead. So I don't think it's particularly useful to look at these posts.

And that's the end of Day One. There's still a bit of page 25 left, but it makes a lot more sense to stop this chunk here. No summary this time, because I don't think there's anything I haven't covered perfectly well in the above.

[iamausername]

Day Two:

Post #621: The last sentence here is damning enough on its own, as clear scum feigning ignorance about the nature of the scum in this game...

Post #622: ...but this just seals the deal. So, apparently, dank read the night scene, and posted #621, then decided for some reason to go back and read the opening post of the game, discovered that werewolves were mention there, and posted to correct his 'mistake'. And he did all this within the space of a minute. I struggle to believe this.

Post #627: SC has some really good logic here on the likely scum attitudes in light of the fact that both wagons were town. This is a really good post.

Post #631: Following on the heels of SC calling dank and kiku the most likely scum in the above, Gwyn says he is "losing his town read on kikuchiyo". He has bad, bad reasons for this.

kiku was annoyed at the lovers for lying and claiming masons, because if they'd told the truth, we could have lynched one. This is an epically dumb suggestion, yes, but what is the scum motivation? The lovers were already dead when kiku suggested that, so it's not an attempt to get any town role lynched.

"I also thought her call for a day 2 doctor counterclaim in 579 was a bit iffy, although I'll confess to not thinking it through all that carefully." Well, maybe you should try thinking things through carefully before you go using them as scumtells.

Gwyn also declines to comment on the hider/doc debate on the basis that he is inexperienced. Cop out. SerialClergyman, dank, and kikuchiyo have all been on the site for considerably shorter time than Gwyn, and I don't think any of them have played an overwhelmingly larger number of games than Gwyn in that time, and yet none of them had any trouble commenting on it.

Post #637: dank joins in with the sudden Tenchi wagon that kiku and qwints start. Says Tenchi "seems to be continuing the lurking today" when Tenchi has just said that he will be away for a couple of days.

Post #651: Gwyn speaks out against the Tenchi wagon, but with a bunch of "I'm willing to be convinced" if he decides he needs to hop on later. Also, directs the point about attacking him for lurking when he said he'd be busy at kiku, even though dank is actually the one who did this. kiku attacked him for lurking, yes, but she was talking about his lurking on Day One. Bit of sly misdirection going on there, I think.

Post #652: OK, now kiku actually is attacking him for it. Apparently Gwyn is psychic.

Post #657: kiku starts going into a bit of a meltdown, and OMGUSes SC out of nowhere. I still think her frustration here seems genuine, if aimed in the wrong direction.

Post #658: Gwyn again puts the Tenchi wagon solely on kiku/qwints, ignoring dank's involvement entirely.

Post #675: Still think that kiku arguing for her own lynch in the way that she does here is not something she'd do as scum.

Post #676: Now that kiku is looking like she's going to be lynched, dank suddenly remembers how he was suspicious of nadroj and throws together a rehashed case against Gwyn. Funny how dank only votes Gwyn when there is absolutely no risk of that vote resulting in a lynch, no?

Post #699: Gwyn is the first one to join me in voting qwints on Day Two, but I find his case really lacking. He says qwints keeps flipping between defending and attacking kiku, yet all the examples he points out bar one are qwints attacking her.

Post #707: SC doesn't vote qwints, but does voice support for the wagon, and does so for good and original reasons.

Post #711: DTMaster is finally here! And he also supports the qwints wagon with a good reason of his own.

Post #724: I do believe Nikanor nailed all three scum in this post. This could also explain why he died last night.

Post #811: kiku unvotes after qwints claims SK. I really think the scum would be pushing the "He's claimed a scum role, so he's definitely scum, so we should lynch him!" line. Which is what all of dank, DTM, SC and Gwyn did.

---

And that's all for Day Two, and therefore all. I don't have anything to say about Day Three's posts so far that I haven't already said.

So, let me know how right you think I am, because I think I am pretty goddamn right.

[Gwynplaine]

Looks like the game is starting up again.

So, let me know how right you think I am, because I think I am pretty goddamn right.

Well, I know for a fact you're wrong about me. You've helpfully put links in your post so the hypothetical interested reader can click through and see what I actually wrote, and how it's often somewhat different from your interpretation here.

Post 512. I've addressed that a couple of times now. You may not like my explanation of what I meant, but I can't give you another one. I know what I meant. I think it was clear, and I think my subsequent explanation was equally clear.

Post 544. This is not a "defense" in any sense of the word that I'm familiar with, so it can't actually be a

tu quoque

defense.

Post 581. Well, not "no reason at all." I was swayed by kikuchiyo's argument in 579. As I said.

Posts 651 and 658. At that point, dank wasn't on the Tenchi bandwagon (although as I pointed out later, he was certainly cheerleading for it). Since I was talking about the people who were voting for Tenchi vs. the people who weren't, I couldn't very well have put dank into the first category.

Post 699. I still stand by my case here. Maybe I quoted too many "attacking" posts but there are cleary

two

"buddying" posts there, not one: #20 and #56. With at least one "attacking" post before, in between, and after them, I think I'm justified in calling this behavior "alternating." Also, you'll note that his shifting attitude toward kikuchiyo was not my only reason for voting for him.

Oh, and for 631. As of this writing I have completed exactly one game of mafia, Newbie 707. I was in Mini 777 and had to replace out after about a week due to illness. Those games and this one are the only games of mafia I have ever played anywhere, online or face-to-face. Not playing the newbie card here, just setting the facts straight.

[SerialClergyman]

It's three in the morning, so I won't go through and do individual little additions and nags. I've got a few comments but compared to the sheer size and scope of your case they're relatively irrelevent.

I think you've absolutely nailed it. The only possible holes that I can see is issues of confirmation bias and of quantity vs quality.

Confirmation bias is an obvious trap that I'm sure you're aware of - a good example is dank's rehashed case on gwyn after the kiku wagon falls apart. I think that it's explainable as a bit of weak distancing (especially given much of it was recycled from points that were raised in my stoush with gwyn day 1) but using it as a scumtell is a bad idea - it's one of those damned if he does and damned if he doesn't situations.

The other situation it appears is with kiku, which is why I asked if you had a specific agenda (ie, were trying to convince us she was town). This is not necessarily scummy, and you say that you didn't intend to come from this position, but I think you glossed over a lot of kiku's scummy play at the end of day 1 and her lack of input to the game after her AtE in day 2. If it wasn't for the fact that in hindsight I agree that it's almost impossible to imagine scum not wanting to lynch the SK, I think kiku would be much more scummy than she is.

As for quantity vs quality, that issue comes about when you go looking heavily through the thread for scumtells and relationships and so you naturally find more from those who are active. Hence you've almost completely ignored Tenchi and DTMaster. I think there's still some valid points that you've applied to dank (dank's werewolf?? post) that you could have possibly applied to DTMaster (a few questions that had already been answered or obviously contained signs of not reading the thread.)

But I'm only really mentioning those points out of completeness. I think there's no point trying to go through and find scumminess from kiku you may have missed or glossed over because I agree that her position about the SK comes close to clearing her - especially in this scenario where we are in lylo and need to make the best decision with the information available to us.

Of what you write - the scummiest 'events' have been, in rough order:

** Refusal to vote nadroj after unvoting FC. There was plenty of time, there was a lot of reason, and there was NEVER any good answer to the repeated question. This point encompasses his eventual vote for a power role after spending a long time unvoted complaining at those who were voting a power role.

* Gwyn's lack of acknowledgement of dank being on the kiku wagon. I didn't notice this at the time but in hindsight it's just so obvious. It looks to be actually a really clever piece of manipulation.

* dank's post about werewolf? Do we have a werewolf? I agree that within 1 minute to check the front page on a whim and then come back and post an edit is highly unlikely. Looks like a planted error.

*nadroj(gwyn) bandwagoning early was terrible.

* dank's coaching of nadroj early. His attacks seem to include a shopping list of actions nadroj can do to look less scummy and 'unearn' his vote.

Your point about dank questioning the masons is taken, but I'm pausing for a second to add it to the events because iirc scum killed mason on D1, so what do you think was the point of doing all that groundwork trying to make people suspicious of them only to kill one of them in the first day? Had he been trying to set up a mislynch I'd agree, but clearly the scum motivation was to knock them off, so there's no point trying to cause confusion.

Unless they only made the decision to kill mason after they realised they couldn't get a mislynch on them. They were clearly worried about them - they preferred to kill a mason than someone they knew essentially had to be doc. So perhaps the lack of inroads dank made into causing suspicion about the masons prompted the kill? I don't know, will have to think about this point later.

The final point is which one to vote. I wouldn't vote until giving them a chance to respond, of course, but while reading, and seeing many of the points concur to my read of the game and expand upon it in such a concrete way, I started wondering which one to vote but to be honest, I suspect that choice is actually relatively meaningless, the chance that we lynch one and find scum and then switch to someone else the next day seems relatively unlikely to me. But, given it's lylo and we haven't had a massclaim, an extra night may be important, depending on our power roles. So maybe it is worth putting some effort into picking one over the other (also revisiting the massclaim idea).

And now it's 4am. Off to bed.

Well done on a case that's obviously taken a LOT of effort and will hopefully bear fruit.

[Gwynplaine]

* Gwyn's lack of acknowledgement of dank being on the kiku wagon. I didn't notice this at the time but in hindsight it's just so obvious. It looks to be actually a really clever piece of manipulation.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[kikuchiyo]

Honestly, I think Gwyn is the best bet here. If Gwyn is not scum then that would mean that we were ENTIRELY wrong on day 1 and I just don't see how that could be. As to defending myself I see no reason to at this time. I have posted what I can to convince you of my innocence and I think my actions do speak for themselves. I only question whether Dank is scum due to the "newbish" vibe I've pulled form him all game. Though lynching the serial killer was scummy, there were certainly townies on that wagon.

I'd rather start with Gwyn, but will not oppose the Dank lynch. My only worry is that Gwyn is paired with someone else. If Gwyn flips scum I believe we can then afford one mislynch, or am I wrong?

[SerialClergyman]

No kiku, we can't afford a mislynch. we're at 6 people (unless we get a roleblock or a doc protect or the like).

I'm happy to start at Gwyn or dank, but I think saying we couldn't have been that wrong day 1 is meh. It happens. The main thing about the case is that much of their scumminess relies on their interaction with each other, so essentially it's interchangeable for me. Possibly the best way is to work out who has done the most individually scummy actions, but as I said, we need to be right about both to win, so which one is first is a bit of a false conundrum.

After sleeping on it, I'm not so sure about a massclaim any more. We have got 1 day to find out a bit of information if our lynch today is scum, and if we have a massclaim and there does happen to be an information role left, that'll just be an easy kill for the scum. So perhaps we should just press on in hope?

[SerialClergyman]

Also, now that I think about it, THAT'S the reaction you have to the case, Gwyn? Pages and pages of carefully put together tells and you quote a small part of my post in response and say you don't know what I'm talking about?

What about the whole thing? What about the theory? Where's the indignation, the counter-arguments, the explanations?

There are none because you've been decisively nailed.

The only reason I'm not voting you now is to work out the massclaim issue. Expect my vote soon.

[Gwynplaine]

What about the whole thing? What about the theory? Where's the indignation, the counter-arguments, the explanations?

Scroll up.

[SerialClergyman]

Wow fail.

Err..

Sorry ><

Obviously I finished the last post and went to bed and didn't realise you'd posted in before I did.

I've got another game at deadline and I'm a little busy so I'll go through your defence in a little while.

[iamausername]

Gwyn, do you think dank is scum? If so, who's his partner? If not, who is scum?