Mini 811: Foggy Londontown Mafia - Over!

[dank]

I just don't like it when people make posts with no content other than "i agree", because they allow you to just throw your vote on without showing that you're thinking. I'm sure you could at least elaborate more/add something. That's all.

Anyway, I will reread the Mokina thing and post my thoughts on it tomorrow. I am burnt out right now, I spent 6 nonstop hours driving today.

[DraketheFake]

Vote Count Five

kikuchiyo:

3 (Mokina, Hero764, Tenchi)

Mokina:

2 (nadroj15, iamausername)

Lowell:

2 (Wiirdo, qwints)

Hero_764:

1 (dank)

Not Voting:

4 (Far_Cry, kikuchiyo, Lowell, Neferenom)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

Let me know if you spot any errors. Doing an activity check as we speak.

[nadroj15]

Where is everybody?

[kikuchiyo]

kik, why did you want to lynch/claim so soon, when we still have so much time left?

At the time I asked I was feeling confident that Hero was scum. I can't lynch someone on my own, that takes votes, and bandwagon analysis can be a large part of this game. I got to a point in my argument with Hero where I thought he was simply avoiding the issue. I never overstated my case on Hero. It was built on two separate incidents where he "charitably" interpreted the ambiguous statements of another player. In fact, both incidents occurred with the same player, so I don't see how my call for lynch or claim was "rushed". Further, this line of questioning ignores the fact that I did in fact unvote, and promote discussion of other players actions. i.e I could have kept pushing, I believe Hero was at L-1 or L-2 at some point. At this time I'm going to:

Vote: Mokina

She has seriously misrepresented my case against Hero and has posted the most genuine contradiction we have seen.

Please. I am voting for you because it doesn't make sense for town to make the kind of arguments you did. You accused Hero of ... what, exactly? Defending Far_Cry?

You attempted to mislead the town into thinking the circumstances could only mean Hero was scum was antitown

- when in fact you were pushing what was essentially a semantic case on two different people.

A) How can I be misleading town into thinking Hero is scum? If you are town then you wouldn't know whether or not Hero was scum and could therefore not make such a baseless accusation.

B) I offered up the scenario I felt most likely for townHero. i.e. I have seen Masons defend each other before.

C) Earlier you said you realized that my argument with FC was not "semantics", but now you backtrack on that in order to bolster your case on me.

Mokina: you have moved yourself into the category of obvscum. Congratulations. If you

are

town then you're really screwing us.

[nadroj15]

Mokina: you have moved yourself into the category of obvscum. Congratulations. If you

are

town then you're really screwing us.

This line bothers me somewhat.

[kikuchiyo]

Sorry, nad, but what else can I say? I don't even feel like we need a "case" against her. Her posts are clearly backwards. The fact that she has now backtracked to the FC case and changed her opinion in regards to me makes this look even more like a chainsaw defense(of Hero). i.e. Mok's attack came in response to my case on Hero. She has flagrantly misrepresented what I said.

What about the statement bothers you?

[Hero764]

C) Earlier you said you realized that my argument with FC was not "semantics", but now you backtrack on that in order to bolster your case on me.

Wrong. She agreed with your earlier case on FC about him calling Lowell suspicious, not about him lying about his lack of experience. You're making up stuff just to strengthen your case

yet again

, and I don't like it.

[Mokina]

Sorry, nad, but what else can I say?

I don't even feel like we need a "case" against her

. Her posts are clearly backwards. The fact that she has now backtracked to the FC case and changed her opinion in regards to me ...

Do you believe that, in general, it's a good idea to vote for someone with nothing to go on? And for the record, changes of opinion are okay and expected in mafia. I happen to think you're a bit scummy for pushing a weak case on FC, but way scummier for misrepresenting Hero and generally blowing it out of proportion.

I've stated my points. No regrets here.

[iamausername]

Look, kikuchiyo is making a whole lot of bad and illogical arguments, it's true. That's why I was voting her earlier. But no one should let that distract them from the fact that Mokina has slipped up badly and basically admitted that she is scum:

I think the reason you went about your argument the way you did is that you honestly believe your accusation was based on something worthwhile.

This is completely counter to every argument Mokina is making against kiku. If she thinks kiku honestly believes that her accusations are worthwhile, then how is kiku scummy for making those accusations? That doesn't make any sense.

The reason Mokina thinks this is because she is scum, and she knows kiku is town. That is the only plausible explanation for Mokina making this statement. The fact that Mokina is completely ignoring this issue and trying to keep attention on the weak points in kiku's case is just further proof of that fact.

[kikuchiyo]

Wrong. She agreed with your earlier case on FC about him calling Lowell suspicious, not about him lying about his lack of experience. You're making up stuff just to strengthen your case yet again, and I don't like it.

I am not making anything up here. I am referring to her "earlier" agreement with me. The case about FC "lieing" is debatable. i.e. You yourself have admitted that FC

may have attrempted to lie

. You just feel that it is irrelevant. I unvoted you and put the case against you on the backburner, so by your logic my earlier actions should be irrelevant, no?

Also, what case are you referring to? I have stated that we don't even need a case against Mokina. Read her posts.

Do you believe that, in general, it's a good idea to vote for someone with nothing to go on? And for the record, changes of opinion are okay and expected in mafia. I happen to think you're a bit scummy for pushing a weak case on FC, but way scummier for misrepresenting Hero and generally blowing it out of proportion.

This is a misrepresentation. Noone is voting "with nothing to go on". The case against you is extremely clear, and iam just pointed it out AGAIN. If changes of opinion are expected and okay, why are you not attacking those who attacked me for my changing opinions earlier?

Hero: Why are you ignoring the case on Mokina?

[Hero764]

I don't want to get accused of giving Mokina the benefit of the doubt, but you have to think of other ways to interpret Mokina's statement. She could've meant, for instance, that while kiku's initial accusation could've been townish, the fact that she kept pushing after being shown she was wrong was scummy. Scum can find cases against people too and base them on something worthwhile. Townies can make themselves look scummy when they aren't.

Are Mokina's actions questionable? Yes, very. But I find kiku's continuous scumminess much more of a grounds for a lynch than this.

[Hero764]

I am not making anything up here. I am referring to her "earlier" agreement with me. The case about FC "lieing" is debatable. i.e. You yourself have admitted that FC may have attrempted to lie. You just feel that it is irrelevant. I unvoted you and put the case against you on the backburner, so by your logic my earlier actions should be irrelevant, no?

Ok, but I don't see where she ever disagreed about the FC/Lowell thing. And please explain how my logic shows that.

Hero: Why are you ignoring the case on Mokina?

Ignoring it? How do you mean? I just find the case on you a better one.

[Far_Cry]

Post 52:

unvote

Lowell is

lurking and is suspicious

, but I'll hold back on my vote for now.

Vote:Lowell

for active l

urking and suspicious

posts.

Um, Wiirdo, I'm not sure if this is ur 1st game, but this sounds strange. U urself hav been lurking (a little), and then go and vote for someone else doing the same.

Kinda sounds mafiaish.

Meanwhile,

unvote

Obviously Tenchi will be gone (I mean, is gone). No point trying to get something out of him/her.

iamausername, why do u keep goin on about my earlier statement about my experience in mafia? In jus about every post u hav to somehow attack me.

Oh and Lowell, shut up. If u dont hav anything reasonable to say, don't say it. U make urself look rly retarded.

And kiku, u ALWAYS hav the longest posts. u hav to say something for just about everything, huh?

My biggest suspicions: Lowell and Wiirdo

Its suspicious when someone other than you says "lurking and suspicious"?

FC: You're suspicious of Lowell for lurking, yet aren't you lurking just as much?

Excuse me dank? I'm lurking just as much as Lowell? Wat the hell??

To tell the truth, dank, I didn't say that wat I said about Lowell wasn't wrong; it just that in the atmosphere this game has come to, and Wiirdo not contributing to the discussion, it sounds strange.

Mokina obviously slipped up and made herself very suspicious (and i have to say she is too), but the points brought up about kiku ar pretty true, and kiku has said some very strange things, that makes herself look suspicious.

U make urself look rly retarded.

Are you even trying to play this game?

Is that a joke? I'm just telling the truth

[kikuchiyo]

Ridiculous. Both you and Mokina are indescriminately giving players the "benefit of the doubt." There is no logical reason for either of you to not be offering that same reasoning to me. None of my arguments have been so terrible as to have the only option of me being scum according to the logic both of you are using, yet neither of you is willing to accept the very reasonable(even if fallible) explanations behind my arguments. You are both also supporting a wagon with an RVS vote still attached to it. Oppurtunistic behavior imo.

[Mokina]

If she thinks kiku honestly believes that her accusations are worthwhile, then how is kiku scummy for making those accusations? That doesn't make any sense.

I'm talking about the driving point of the argument itself. Kiku as a player is under the impression that she can convince the town using an argument based ultimately around her personal interpretation of the post "Lowell is lurking and is suspicious."

That is never a worthwhile accusation, regardless of actual alignment. When I tried to point that out at the beginning, she had a lash-out reaction ... and more so when Hero did, with a vote. I read newbscum.

How can I be misleading town into thinking Hero is scum? If you are town then you wouldn't know whether or not Hero was scum and could therefore not make such a baseless accusation.

Hero could be buddying mafia, or an FC-linked mason, or a plain townie who doesn't like groundless arguments. He could be anything, Kiku - I am aware that his pressing of the issue against does not say anything about his alignment.

Of course

scum pretend to be townies scumhunting when the opportunity arises, and that's my point. If they're too opportunistic, it's a tell.

[kikuchiyo]

ecwop: ninja"d there. 213 is in response to 210.

[kikuchiyo]

214 is the backtrack.

[Hero764]

You are both also supporting a wagon with an RVS vote still attached to it.

Holy shit, every post you include more scummy reasoning. Where the hell did this come from all of a sudden?

And please explain the pro-town reasons for what you did.

[kikuchiyo]

217: You avoid the issue.

My pro-town reasoning for what exactly?

[Hero764]

You said none of your arguments were bad enough to only mean you were scum, and I asked you what was/could be pro-town about your arguments.

[Mokina]

...yet neither of you is willing to accept the very reasonable(even if fallible) explanations behind my arguments. You are both also supporting a wagon with an RVS vote still attached to it. Oppurtunistic behavior imo.

Fallible explanations cut no ice with me and I tend to ignore them. Townies and scum alike can make weak arguments, and I was quite willing to ignore the flaws with your case at the beginning. However, the abrupt switch and tunnel vision against

not FC but your attacker

looks to me like scum trying to lynch an obv threat by whatever means possible.

Epic distancing going on between you and Hero? Maybe, and I am not entirely convinced he's protown, but I am pretty much sold on the case against you. As for the RVS, that's Tenchi's fault. He might do well to consider the actual merits of a vote against you now. It would be unwise of him to wait until L-1.

218: Kiku avoids the issue so much, it's funny. You're trying to find a reason why we shouldn't vote for you, and you come up with something totally not related to your scumminess?

[kikuchiyo]

I was under the impression that FC found Lowell's lurking suspicious.
Lowell explained the reason for his lurking.
I concluded that the cause of FC's suspicions had been addressed.

Anyone trying to follow a town current by attacking a semantic point like this one is notable, as far as I'm concerned.
If you're scum, that's a really convenient way to set yourself up for a vote.

I went back to look at Far_Cry's post ... seems as if we each read it differently the first time. I thought it was referring to Lowell's absence, whereas you thought there was a second reason. Misunderstanding, sorry to pin a semantic attack on you.

FC hasn't actually resolved whether or not there's an additional reason besides Lowell's absence, but he should. The point about the scumvenience of said vote was good call; duly noted.

I'm talking about the driving point of the argument itself. Kiku as a player is under the impression that she can convince the town using an argument based ultimately around her personal interpretation of the post "Lowell is lurking and is suspicious."

That is never a worthwhile accusation, regardless of actual alignment. When I tried to point that out at the beginning, she had a lash-out reaction ... and more so when Hero did, with a vote. I read newbscum.

[kikuchiyo]

Townies and scum alike can make weak arguments, and I was quite willing to ignore the flaws with your case at the beginning. However, the abrupt switch and tunnel vision against

not FC but your attacker

looks to me like scum trying to lynch an obv threat by whatever means possible.

Odd. Your attack against me seemed to gain steam when I attacked you. Also odd. I have unvoted Hero and moved on. I have pointed out suspicions against more than just Hero. How do I fit the definition of "tunnel-vision" when I am not even directly attacking the person you are accusing me of tunneling on?

[quote"Mok"]Epic distancing going on between you and Hero? Maybe, and I am not entirely convinced he's protown, but I am pretty much sold on the case against you.[/quote]

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Your case against me REVOLVES around the fact that you believe I am trying to get rid of a pro-town threat(Hero). You can't now be suspicious of him as well without that suspicion weakening your case on me.

As for the RVS, that's Tenchi's fault. He might do well to consider the actual merits of a vote against you now. It would be unwise of him to wait until L-1.

So you are willing to capitalize on Tenchi's vote?

218: Kiku avoids the issue so much, it's funny. You're trying to find a reason why we shouldn't vote for you, and you come up with something totally not related to your scumminess?

Who is trying to come up with reasons not to be voted? 218 is where I point out that Hero is in fact avoiding the issue of "Tenchi's vote". I then ask a question for him to clarify which of my actions he is requesting reasons for. How is that "avoiding the issue"?

[kikuchiyo]

ebwop:

Fallible explanations cut no ice with me and I tend to ignore them. Townies and scum alike can make weak arguments, and I was quite willing to ignore the flaws with your case at the beginning. However, the abrupt switch and tunnel vision against not FC but your attacker looks to me like scum trying to lynch an obv threat by whatever means possible.

^^ What I am referring to with the statement about what your case "revolves" around. According to your above statement, the rest of my behavior is null-tell. Now you are again seemingly backtracking.

[Mokina]

221? I did write those statements. After the first, you went after me. By the second, you were under the impression that I was your buddy or something, and I was under the impression that you understood why a semantic argument didn't make sense.

But you didn't stop. In fact, you didn't even go after Far_Cry, which would have made you seem stupid but would have been a null tell about alignment. No, you stopped attacking me and targeted the nearest new threat, Hero. And trying to lynch anyone that will disagree with you later on, rather than the ones that look the most scummy? That's not protown behavior at all.

So you are willing to capitalize on Tenchi's vote?

Should we be counting the number of times you strawman me? Tenchi's vote is his own. It would reflect badly on his towniness if he placed it randomly and then held it there, even as the votee accumulated a wagon. But a random vote does not grant immunity to the target, and if you think you have a convincing argument for your innocence or addressed any of my suspicions, you clearly haven't been reviewing your own posts.

Your attack against me seemed to gain steam when I attacked you...

Your case against me REVOLVES around the fact that you believe I am trying to get rid of a pro-town threat(Hero). You can't now be suspicious of him as well without that suspicion weakening your case on me.

I'm suspicious of everyone, but you're the only one counterattacking every argument against you. Observe...

• Hero attacked you for calling FC suspicious on a weak argument.
  
• You lashed out at Hero, seeing him as a threat.
  
• I found this defensiveness scummy and placed a vote...
  
• Then
  you made nice with Hero and voted for me.

Before that, he was the main person pressing the issue of FC's semantics against her. In the earlier argument Kiku counterattacked rather than addressing the focal point of the argument. This says defensive scum - and even more so now that she has unvoted him and targeted me, the only person running an active case against her. Kiku ... quite simply, my case

revolves

around your habit of locking in in the nearest person who seems to be a threat and fabricating a case against them.

You had no evidence against Hero other than that he attacked you! Does it make sense for a protown player to push a case like that? Why are you trying to kill off, very specifically, those who are voting for you?

Answer me this, if nothing else. Ugh.