Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[Incognito]

I'm here.

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1)

LlamaFluff

2)

Porkens

3)

afatchic

4)

Zilla

Original Roll String: 1d4

1 4-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

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vote: LlamaFluff

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I'd like to withhold that information at this time. Let them sweat it out a bit, eh?

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unvote, vote: mykonian

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Zilla, why give flak to LlamaFluff claiming that his lack of a reason for his random vote removes accountability from his vote and then freely admit that all of your votes thus far

which actually had reasons

were all random and meaningless?

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Post 62 struck me as odd considering the fact that your "contributions" thus far very much resemble exactly what you were accusing ZazieR of. I note that you questioned Zilla about something fairly serious in your post 54 but yet you

still

haven't bothered to vote for a person all game as of this time. And then your post 65 is like icing on the cake -- it looks like more of what you were accusing ZazieR of in Post 62.

There's another reason for that vote, but I'd like to withhold that information at this time too.

Eh? Why only those four?
Don't you love us as much as those four? Is that it? Hmm? Hmmmmmm?

That said:

VOTE INCOGNITO

Your random vote shenanigans have gone to far.

Since my early vote's worth has expired, I'll explain THAT one however. Those four people are the only four people in this game whom I've never played with or modded at all.

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54: and she backtracked in saying it is all nothing serious. I don't know what to think, but I'll remember it. The question pointed out the problem, there came an answer, and I'm happy with that.

But she never even answered your question yet...

And if she did, then she responded with a question in her post 55, and you never responded to her question.

Fair enough to 62 and 65, I suppose. ZazieR's reaction to your questions/comments didn't really lead me to believe that this was some running gag between you and her but yeah. ZazieR, is this true for the most part?

Oh, and that last reason: may I take a guess? Buddying up? to Porkens perhaps?

Is this a joke or are you being serious here? I can't tell with the addition of the smiley.

If it's serious, what makes you think I'm buddying up to anyone let alone Porkens?

But I don't yet want to vote zilla, till I have seen more. VP is not really a good place for a vote yet, and zazie has not yet done something scummy. So, eh, I see no need to place a vote yet. Even if I know some people think that scummy

c: no, just that if I were to accuse him, the case would be ridiculously weak.

You've commented on Zilla, yes, so I understand your suspicion of her but what makes you bring up VP Baltar's name of all the people in this game? Reading through your posts, I don't see you mentioning anything about him until now so what exactly would you be accusing him of?

@LlamaFluff:

Heh, I completely forgot about that game actually.

[Incognito]

I've GOT to stop signing up for fast moving games.

Oh, and that last reason: may I take a guess? Buddying up? to Porkens perhaps?

Is this a joke or are you being serious here? I can't tell with the addition of the smiley.

If it's serious, what makes you think I'm buddying up to anyone let alone Porkens?

Hmm, I thought that was the only thing I talked about further...

Huh?

@Zilla:

the marathon day game that I modded you in slipped my mind too. So, you're in serious-mode now, yes? Could you possibly answer this question then:

Zilla, why give flak to LlamaFluff claiming that his lack of a reason for his random vote removes accountability from his vote and then freely admit that all of your votes thus far

which actually had reasons

were all random and meaningless?

Looked to me like he was guessing at your reason for voting him. The fact that you read that as an accusation against you catches my attention.

Err... I didn't read that as an accusation at all. I was questioning him as to why he guessed

that

particular reason of all reasons. It seems odd to me that he would guess that I'm

buddying up

to Porkens by reasonless voting him (mykonian) and, at the same time, mykonian doesn't even list me as one of the people he finds suspicious despite the fact that he guesses that I'm buddying up to Porkens. I wanted to know why.

There's another reason for that vote, but I'd like to withhold that information at this time too.

Why are we witholding reasons for votes?

To secretly check for consistency in behavior. Now to provide the reasons:

@ZazieR:

I reasonless voted in this game once, and I happen to know that you dislike reasonless votes. Why did you not call me out about it?

@Zilla:

I reasonless voted outside of random, you gave flak to LlamaFluff for using a reasonless vote in RVS, but yet you didn't mention anything about my reasonless vote. Why is that?

[Incognito]

Right. So here's the deal: I don't think Zilla's scum. I think her play's certainly been somewhat sloppy, yes, but it doesn't strike me as the type of play I'd expect to more likely come from scum. The speed of this wagon and the sheer

level

of Zilla-hate also causes me a lot of concern.

Zilla:

I think you seriously need to realize that Porkens' reaction to your claim wasn't rolefishing,

period

. My impression of your doublevote was that you were joking but that doesn't mean that everyone else will come to the same conclusion as me -- obviously some people might think you were seriously claiming a role. Question for you: why do you think a Porkens-scum would be more likely than a Porkens-town to ask you about whether or not you were seriously claiming a double vote ability?

Incog.. I am too swamped to meta-check you... but do you do this a lot? Vote for no reason, then refuse to provide those reasons when asked?

I

had

a reason for my vote. I just chose to withhold that reason and decided to provide it at a later time when things played out, and I was able to check for consistency of behavior. If you read back, you'll notice that I did eventually provide that reasoning.

-~-~-~-~-~

I don't see the appeal for VP Baltar's "Zilla being bussed by mykonian-scum" theory. The fact that he built a complete case against mykonian under the premonition that Zilla is scum is creepy. VP Baltar, do you see mykonian as scummy independent of his interactions of Zilla? Your case only seems to work under the assumption that Zilla is definitely scum here, and we haven't had an alignment flip yet sooo, yeah.

mykonian's defense to VP Baltar's case is also weird:

and baltar, I don't know, but scum, bussing serious on page 5? Not a lot would do that, I think. The distancing-bussing story seems a little far-fetched.

Why "seems" a little far-fetched? If you're town here, wouldn't you

know

whether or not it's far-fetched?

Kmd4390 and mykonian:

If I'm reading correctly, VP Baltar was accusing

mykonian

of bussing Zilla. How did you two contort that into

LlamaFluff

bussing Zilla?

-~-~-~-~-~

I dont think myk is overly suspicious. Plus I always do end up favoring people who think the same as I do, especially if its before I make by suspicions public.

This is odd.

Back in post 72 you seemed to let on that you were suspicious of mykonian as you pointed out a few things you found wrong with his posting. And this was back at a time when he was still making it somewhat apparent that he was suspicious of Zilla, which means that he would have been thinking the same way as you were back then too. Then you

did

seem to completely drop those mykonian suspicions on page 4 completely in favor of the current Zilla-case. Why is that?

-~-~-~-~-~-~

mykonian's vote on Zilla strikes me as extremely scummy. I find it odd that he supposedly spent 30 or so minutes meta-gaming Zilla and then finally placed his vote down on her. It seemed like he was leaning towards doing that from

page 3

anyway, so I really dislike how he felt the need to build up to it.

Can we get a wagon on mykonian instead? He's FAR scummier.

The fact that so much of the thread seems to be ignoring this really creeps me out.

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Camn, how did I side-step your question? You centered your question around this idea that I somehow

voted for no reason

when I did in fact have a reason that I chose not to share at that time. If you'd like to know whether I have withheld reasons for actions as town before, then yes, I can say that I have. Your question was phrased weirdly to begin with.

Kmd, I realize that but the way you addressed mykonian with "never rule out bussing" is weird since it was him (mykonian) who was being accused of bussing.

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Camn, honey bunny, I do it once in awhile.

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Nice. Camn's prob-town. I agree her reads don't really reveal much (since she pretty much stated that a bunch of people are 'no reads') but her listing and general tone this game strikes me as town-ish.

I don't think mykonian is scum, because his reason for voting Zilla was crap, and it would be dumb to vote your partner like that if you were scum.

You admit that mykonian's reason for voting Zilla was crap and yet you still come to the conclusion that he's likely not scum? Like

seriously?

Is that all you found weird?

No, I also found the tone of his response discomforting. He didn't seem interested in attempting to figure out why VP Baltar would connect you with him -- he just said traditional scum teams wouldn't bus this early. If he was genuinely suspicious of you, I'd think he'd be leerier of people trying to connect him to you -- he showed no indication of that.

I wanted to be sure I was reading where myk was going correctly. With different answers I would of responded differently. When he confirmed that Zilla was his top pick before I made it known who my top pick was, it made me more comfortable with him.

Okay... what do you think of the reasoning he used to eventually join the Zilla-wagon?


mykonian: the problem I have with your vote is pretty much from page 3 you attempted to give off this impression that you were using a good amount of caution before deciding to vote for Zilla and then you eventually voted her after spending only 30 minutes looking through a few of her town games (in which she pretty much replaced into all of them which makes the comparison pretty close to null) and then you used a

single

game where she was scum to come to the conclusion that she's probably scum here because, in your opinion, her play here resembles her play in that game. I just don't think the level of caution you've tried to exude is genuine.

The other thing that bothers me is your self-proclaimed stance on meta back in the one game I have experience playing with you in (Newbie 708 where you were town) doesn't match your actions here in this current game which makes me believe even further that your supposed caution isn't genuine:

you are a professional mafia player? asking other people what they know about people you play with. Wow. anyway, this is probably one of the only games where I was town where you can get something out. I have played 1 themed game as town too, but that play was weird. there must be another game I played as town. I forgot. Fact is, the majority of the games I played were as scum.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9573

When exactly did you become a meta-lover?

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Mod:

camn's also voting mykonian.

It should be noted that the death of afatchic now places Zilla at L-1. afatchic-scum's posts:

Vote Incognito

Votes obvtown during random stage.

Ninja'd.

doublevote: afatchic

for the same reason as Llamafluff.

Only scum would wanna lynch two people right at the start!

Serious accusation towards Zilla dressed up as a joke.

Not much to analyze unfortunately but at least one scum is dead.

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unvote

Not because I don't think he's scum any longer, but we really don't need L-1 yet.

Unvote: Zilla

Now it's L-1, I'm not ready to have her there and am in the middle of preparing a reread post in which I was considering other cases anyhow.

You do realize that your vote on mykonian placed

him

at L-1 too right? Were you concerned about ANYONE being at L-1 so quickly when you stated the above or just Zilla?

Porkens:

why kill so quickly? If you had a scum read on afatchic, why not allow him to produce some content (like a Player-by-Player) before shooting?



More later. Haven't read through the last page yet.

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Re: Porkens - I'm inclined to believe the claim and am leaning towards believing he's likely town. Aside from the fact that he killed scum, I think the way he claimed strikes me as very town-ish too; I'm usually a sucker for unprovoked claims more often coming from town than scum, and his explanation for why he killed afatchic before afatchic got around to producing any content (Porkens had a strong level of anxiousness to actually USE his role) goes along with his urge to claim as well. I won't be supporting a Porkens-lynch anytime soon, if at all. I need to reread ZazieR's beef with Porkens because I don't think it makes much sense at this time.

Long story short: Anxiousness to kill and anxiousness to claim = likely Porkens-town.

-~-~-~-~-~

Zilla, charter:

In this quote war like in every other quote war in the game of Mafia, there comes a point of diminishing returns. charter, I think everyone understands your beef with Zilla. It's been drilled in our heads. Zilla, you've defended yourself already as best as you could. I don't see any need to continue these long drawn out posts where you just continue bashing each other. It only serves to make the thread more unreadable. Please stop. Thanks.

And I still need to read those last few pages. Heh.

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Off-topic banter:

I've decided that I'd probably pay really good money to see Zilla beating her chest the way charter suggested.


Anywho, with the speed this thread is moving and the amount of back-and-forths going on, I've decided it would probably be better for me to get my thoughts down about everyone in a player-by-player fashion and then go from there. Using player list from top to bottom.

Kmd4390:

I'm still not really sure what to think of him at this time. I've only played with him in one game which happened nearly a year ago back when he was new to the site, but I don't recall him being as tunnel-visioned in that game as he has been here (he was town there). I'm really not a fan of his recent accusation that I'm scum if Zilla is scum because I really can't see how in post 248 he could interpret my post 240 as a Zilla-scum buddy who's trying to bring down the attack against her. I was pretty clearly arguing that with the constant back-and-forths of the same point being argued over and over again between charter and Zilla, the thread is likely becoming more and more unreadable which actually

hurts

town rather than helps it. And his interpretation of Zilla's quote is bizarre as well, along with his new stance on page 11 where he argues that he doesn't even find me scummy at all. So why did you pair Zilla and I together? How did you interpret my posts early in the game and on page 10 as soft questions and then protection of a Zilla-scum buddy?

ZazieR and camn:

I know both of you have a lot more experience playing with Kmd than I do -- what's your read of him so far?

ZazieR:

I have almost no read of her so far, which probably isn't a good thing given we're now on page 11. I'd like for her to elaborate further on her stance of Porkens since I really don't understand her logic as to why she would support a Porkens-lynch tomorrow if he happens to be a one-shot vig. Interestingly, I thought I saw a very

minor

town tell from her confirmation post where she claimed that she had to get her gun -- I don't know if she was pseudo-claiming scum but if she was, I'd see this as a minor town-tell considering the fact that our game has

werewolves

in it as opposed to

mafia

, which I would assume use a different kill method than guns, and I would expect that if she was scum, she would be more likely to realize this than if she was town confirming. ZazieR, comments?

Kmd:

your read of ZazieR so far?

Plum:

Needs to post more. I've found myself agreeing with some of her stances particularly those on mykonian and some of her comments on LlamaFluff which could suggest that she might be thinking along the same lines as me but with only 4 really long posts in the thread, I'm finding myself having a difficult time reading her. I think if mykonian flips scum though, she's almost certainly town -- I can't see a Plum-scum (heh, that rhymes) flipping from one wagon (the Zilla one) to another one (the mykonian one, which put him at L-1) if she was scum with him, especially since just prior to this, Porkens ended up killing afatchic-scum.

LlamaFluff:

A lot of his posts have been giving me the hives actually. I already commented on his early posts where he seemed to be giving mykonian some flak but then suddenly went to being a mykonian-fanboy just because "he was thinking the same thing about Zilla" <-- this switch just doesn't feel natural to me. I'd think an LF-town might show more leeriness towards mykonian. Also his recent post about Porkens strikes me as really weird too -- he seems to have a lot of negative to say about the claim but then concludes that he "sees basically no was Porkens is scum". Also, since his unvote of Zilla, he hasn't really commented on anyone or anything aside from Porkens citing that he'd like to see more from some other people. There's plenty of stuff going on right now; any thoughts on that?

Porkens:

as per my previous post, I'm thinking this guy's town. 'nuff said for now. Porkens, can you elaborate more on the connection you see between VP Baltar and LlamaFluff?

camn:

Another one who needs to post more, but I'm leaning town on her right now too. I've played a number of games with her before, modded her before, hydra-ed with her before, and she seems to be thinking in a town frame of mind. Her paranoia about me seems genuine too.

mykonian:

I think all of the comments I've said about him are there for all to see. I still see myself supporting his lynch.

charter:

Another Zilla-tunneler, but if I'm not mistaken, he has a tendency to do this as town (I've played with him previously in two separate games where he's been town, though I've never seen him as scum). Oddly, I find his tunneling on Zilla to be slightly more town-ish than anyone else's at this time.

Zilla:

I'm still thinking that she's likely town for the reasons I mentioned previously (speed of wagon on her, the sheer level of Zilla-hate, play seems more sloppy and slightly poorly thought out as opposed to scummy). I wouldn't support her lynch today.

VP Baltar:

Not crazy about his mykonian <-> Zilla scum buddy theory. VP, no matter what you might think about the quality level of players in this town, I can almost GUARANTEE you that we're not owning this game so hard where BOTH of the leading wagons have been on scum -- that's just simply probability and math. Aside from that, I dislike forming connections between people until after alignment flips. VP's play here doesn't really remind me of the play I saw from a him-scum in NG 696, but I'm aware of the fact that he might have improved since then. I do find it scummy though to suggest that both of the leading wagons might be on scum since that kind of position allows for a hypo-scum to easily sway from one wagon to the next.



This is really damn long. I blame boredom at work.

vote: LlamaFluff

for a cool counter-wagon. Vote can easily go back to mykonian, obviously, but I'm curious to see what this might do.

mykonian, VP, and KMD: what's your read of LF?

Also, here's a cool aside about this game: does anyone else find it weird that the people who have been attacking Zilla have pretty much ONLY been attacking Zilla while the people who have been after mykonian have also been commenting on other people as well?

[Incognito]

mykonian, you're right in that you've done the Zilla-focusing to a lesser degree than charter and Kmd because I have noticed you commenting on others. As for why I found your delayed vote scummy, I think I explained that previously also back in my 12th post. I don't know if you're requesting other people to explain this to you or not -- admittedly, I know you responded to my point about you being a new meta-lover, and I haven't had the chance to look through the games you cited, but I will get around to that eventually. The building up to the vote still strikes me as scummy though for the reasons I previously listed.

Yeah, it might not be true, and statistically speaking is bloody unlikely. What did you think about their reasons for voting each other, however?

I thought mykonian's eventual reason was bad, as I mentioned previously. Zilla's reason for voting mykonian struck me as being more sound, actually, since I agree that it really did appear as though mykonian was kinda sitting the fence a bit at first with regards to what he thought about Zilla.

I dislike forming connections between people until after alignment flips

Really? You seem to be doing it when you are asking specific people for opinions on other specific players. I'm just being much more explicit about it. Obviously it iss not guaranteed that Zilla is scum if mykon flips, but let me ask you this, based on the case I made would you be suspicious of her if he did flip scum?

In response to the first part of this, perhaps I phrased that poorly -- I think making an attempt to think about connections is fine, but I felt like the way you built an entire case against mykonian under the supposition that Zilla was scum was off. I, on the other hand, have a list of reads of people who I'm finding scummy and am asking those people to formulate opinions about each other. I have in no way stated that these people are likely or even definitely scum with one another like you or Kmd have done in the past.

If mykonian flips scum, I am inclined to believe that Zilla is even more likely to be town. Again, I highly highly doubt that we're doing

so

well here that we have two competing wagons on scum, and I just don't see the connection between them -- they've been anti-each other since pretty much the start of the game.

I do find it scummy though to suggest that both of the leading wagons might be on scum since that kind of position allows for a hypo-scum to easily sway from one wagon to the next.

Does that appear to be what I am doing? I haven't moved my vote from mykon since I placed it...which was at a time when the Zilla wagon was at 4 votes and going strong, while the mykon wagon was at 2 and getting little attention.

Sure, you haven't ever switched your vote to the Zilla-wagon, but you mentioned that you support both cases on both people and then went on to come to the conclusion that they're likely scum together when I think that really seems like an unlikely scenario. Doesn't that suggest that you support both of their lynches today? I don't see what you're arguing here.

Also, I think some people in this game are a bit more suspicious of him because they have played with him before and, from what I understand, his scum game is very pro-town.

The people who have commented on LF have mentioned nothing about "him appearing very pro-town here therefore he's likely scum". You yourself just said that I raised some decent points against him -- why do you believe people are suspicious of him here because he appears pro-town here?

[Incognito]

Oh and VP: whether or not mykonian only had two votes at that time compared to Zilla's four votes doesn't really matter -- I think by that time when you made your case against the two of them, it seemed pretty evident judging by the people who were making their feelings heard that mykonian was someone who had the potential to receive a good deal of attention.

[Incognito]

Yes, like I've said, I do think her play is a bit off-kilter here, but I don't think she's scum for it. For example this is the type of post I wouldn't expect to come from scum and it only helps reaffirm my town read of her:

Wow, look what that made me miss!

This changes things slightly: namely my accusations between KMD and Llama. I'm going to search for any relevence afatchic had and what people said about her.

Porkens claims dayvig? Awesome job anyhow! (ducks incoming votes for commenting on what just happened).

First person to pick out Porkens' dayvig soft claim AND to announce it in-thread when she was at L-2 when that could have easily gotten another 2 people to vote her for a lynch after an afatchic-scum just got shot? Maybe I'm being naive, and she could be EXTREMELY ballsy scum, but I doubt that.

[Incognito]

mykonian, can you point to which posts of Zilla's she defends herself in that way? I can't seem to find them, so I can't offer comment.

As for what the danger was in the above situation you have this:

-~- Zilla already had an L-1 maybe L-2 wagon on her and was receiving considerable flak.
-~- Porkens soft-claims vig by writing ":blam:" and nobody comments on this until Zilla brings it forward in the above-mentioned quote that I pulled up.
-~- I

think

calling attention to a soft-claim is something that a lot of people would consider scummy, so if we're dealing with a single scum group here (and afatchic's already dead), and Zilla was already at L-2, she'd have to be quite a courageous scum to point out such a soft-claim when a hypo-her-scum might expect people to use that as even further justification to vote for her to a lynch. A hypo-her scum might even think that exposing such a soft-claim might sell the wagon to people who were still undecided about her, which would be straight scum suicide especially considering the fact that one scum had already been lost (in afatchic). So, I think her pointing out the soft-claim is more justification for her being town.

Obviously this is all subject to WIFOM but so are most other things that people consider to be town-tells.

[Incognito]

^^^

this last post from mykonian seems very sincere and townish to me. I actually didn't even realize how close the deadline is. I have some things to respond to which I'll take the time to right now, but I'm getting really cold feet about a mykonian-lynch.

[Incognito]

@ mykonian's 275: I don't think calling attention to one's town meta is something that is more likely to be done by scum as opposed to town in defense of oneself. Also, I don't think the town games you looked into are very good comparisons since in each one, Zilla's been a replacement. Therefore, there's no way to determine whether or not Zilla would actually use a so-called Spaghetti Strategy to kick a game off because, according to what I've read, I haven't seen a town game of hers that she played completely from scratch; she seems to replace in a lot. If you have a sample of games of hers that strongly SUGGEST that she wouldn't use this strategy as town, then that might help your case against her but as it stands, it doesn't look like that's the case. So no.

I just have somewhat of a gut read that myk is town. There is not a whole lot to back it up. Its just a mix of my gut scummy reads and him having a similar read.

I doubt this gut read of yours came about back on page 4, right (which was when this 'switch' from myk-hate to fanboy happened)?

I disagree with how its used, thats not something that makes him someone to lynch, just reckless. I still kind of want him to roleclaim though. With a role more descriptive then "mafia" shown already, something just flipping "One shot day vig" is odd.

What's odd about it? This is a town versus werewolves set-up. The mod called this particular werewolf (afactchic) a Forest Wolf Governor. Aside from the "Forest Wolf" prefix, a Governor is a pretty standard role. I don't see why Porkens would need to claim any further than he has already.

You were making it out that I supported their lynches equally, which is not true. The point I was making about Zilla's wagon being the leading one at the time is this: why would I, as scum, not vote for Zilla's wagon that was gaining steam when it wouldn't have been suspicious at all to do so? Even though mykon was second wagon, wouldn't the obvious play there for scum have been to go after the wagon most likely to lynch in the shortest possible time?

Huh?

You pretty clearly stated that you support the case against Zilla, you ended up voting for mykonian, and you said that you think the two of them are scum together. That pretty clearly seems to suggest that you supported their lynches equally. If you think two people are equally likely to be scum, what could

possibly

make you prefer one lynch over the other?

Major FoS: VP Baltar

The other portion is WIFOM, and I don't care to respond to it.

So, Incog, your view into my mindset is wrong.

Fair enough. We arrived at the same conclusion just utilizing different routes.

Zilla's 284 is noted. I do agree that Plum has done a fair share of parroting in this game.

Sigh. I'll break this into a separate post as this one's getting kind of long.

[Incognito]

@ ZazieR's 298: I don't think it reveals much about Zilla's alignment, which is why I left it at that. If anything, it's basically only a scum-tell for afatchic himself since he tried to make a serious accusation using a comical tone, which I do think is something that is more likely to be done by scum than town. Complete null-tell for Zilla though.

Kmd, if I had to choose between mykonian and Zilla, I'd have to choose mykonian, but like I mentioned in my second to last post, I'm not even sure if he's the correct lynch either. I think LlamaFluff or VP or even one of the lurkers might be a better lynch at this time actually considering the deadline mechanics of this game (one week and ish).

This is a weak accusation/FoS. The question you ask stands out. What could make you prefer one lynch over the other? That is obvious as hell. Players can be more sure about one than the other. Or can be basing one suspicion a connection. Or don't want to lynch someone they think is scummy because they are an uncountered claimed power role. Or one is scummier than the other. The fact that you would ask that question really stands out as scummy.

Errr... when VP Baltar went ahead and voted mykonian over Zilla, did he mention that he was voting mykonian because he thought he was scummier at that time? No, I'm pretty sure he said that he thought the cases raised against the both of them were equally good and that they were very likely to be scum buddies together -- in fact, as I've been arguing all along, he was already using the supposition that Zilla was scum (as if it was a given already) to vote for mykonian.

[Incognito]

Yes, exactly. He still seemed to imply that they stood an equal chance of being scum. Given the content of that post you pulled up, what do you think of what he mentioned here:

You were making it out that I supported their lynches equally, which is not true. The point I was making about Zilla's wagon being the leading one at the time is this: why would I, as scum, not vote for Zilla's wagon that was gaining steam when it wouldn't have been suspicious at all to do so? Even though mykon was second wagon, wouldn't the obvious play there for scum have been to go after the wagon most likely to lynch in the shortest possible time?

Does this not reek of backtracking? Why is my major FoS weak and unwarranted?

The talk about multiple scum groups is not needed right now, btw and can only serve to be a distraction. I'll believe it when I see it (and that can only happen after a Night ends).

And one week to deadline is plenty of time to move votes to another wagon if necessary. Plum and ZazieR really need to get a move on. And LlamaFluff appears to be doing the equivalent of active lurking. I feel great about my vote.

[Incognito]

Yeah, my question was kinda dumb looking back at it. I should've just pointed out the backtracking because that's the major issue I see with that post. I just get into the heat of the moment sometimes and... well my fingers take off haha.

[Incognito]

mykonian, I don't get what you're asking in your last post to me. Clarify?

I'm not sure it's scummy as much as it's... weird...

I think he's suffering from a bout of Stoofer's Syndrome. This tends to happen to scum players when they're playing with a group of invitational-ish players.

[Incognito]

Oh, I see. Well, I'm basically under the impression that she doesn't have such games on MS since she's only played games as town on here as a replacement and never starting from the very beginning of a game. Zilla, got any games where you might have used Spaghetti Strategy as town from another site maybe?

[Incognito]

You people post a lot.

Addressing VP Baltar's Defense to criticism

: VP, all you have to do is read through page 14 particularly at posts 327, 328, and 329 to see the quotes that seem to imply that you supported mykonian's and Zilla's lynches equally. If you need the actual quoted line, here it is (in bolded color code):

While I support the Zilla case

,

I don't think it's necessary to finish the day so quickly

. I would particularly like to look at mykonian,

particularly the potential for him to be Zilla's scumbuddy

.

-> The

olive

color suggests that you support the Zilla case (i.e. you're leaning towards thinking she's scum).
-> The

orange

color is your

reasoning

for not voting her (don't want to end the day too quickly). In other words, if a deadline was placed the day after you wrote this, you would have likely voted Zilla, no?
-> The

dark blue

is a pretty clear statement that you could see them as scum with one another (mind you, in that post, you never mentioned that you found one of them scummier than the other so I can only be lead to guess that you saw them as equally scummy and would therefore support either one of their lynches equally).

I didn't think I'd have to break out the colors but yeah, what can I say.

As for how that is backtracking, I mean come on, "you were making it out that I supported their lynches equally, which is not true"

is backtracking

from the earlier statements that you made above in my color-coded quote. In the color coded quote you VERY CLEARLY seem to suggest that you would support either one of their lynches. To say that you now DIDN'T support their lynches equally is backtracking from your earlier statement.

I don't see how Incog's point was WIFOM.

He said if I was scum I would have placed my vote on mykon at that time because such and such a reason. How is that not wifom?

WHEN DID I SAY THIS?

LOL.

Llama post 353 is obv-sheeping along where he ignores what everyone has asked him.

This I agree with, but why, then, aren't you voting him? Do you find mykonian still scummier than LF?

Camn:

I don't think the point you raised against VP Baltar is valid or a point against him -- there were plenty of other people (including me) who hadn't bothered mentioning anything about afatchic until after he flipped scum. What do you think of the other points raised against VP like the backtracking, etc.? Why are you using meta when discussing your thoughts about him when you previously mentioned that "meta is stupid"?

-- It's really really creepy how many people are ignoring the scumminess of LlamaFluff here.

I can go for any one of the following D1 lynches: LlamaFluff/VP are my preferred lynches and Kmd is the other lynch I'd possibly support. Really not liking his last bunch of posts; he looks like he's just kicking up a lot of dirt at this point.

[Incognito]

I'd like to see ZazieR and Porkens place some votes down. Not voting all day is completely unacceptable.

[Incognito]

Why VP Baltar?

[Incognito]

He's closest to lynch.

Right. But do

you

think he's the best lynch at this time?

[Incognito]

Mod:

Do you do prods? If so, can you prod ZazieR?

She's made like 2000 posts elsewhere since she last posted here. I don't want to hear anymore excuses about cheating on a boyfriend or whatever else she concocts. If you sign up for a game then play the damn game or request replacement if you can't handle it. I do

NOT

want a repeat of Newbie 696. Thanks.

I'll update this thread later today when I get some work done at work.

[Incognito]

A few points to make here (I don't feel like making more blocks of quotes in an already quote-heavy thread):

- VP Baltar is at L-1. He should probably claim.

- Would anyone who has played with Plum before comment on her play here? I like the fact that she agrees with me about a lot of stuff, but eh, it gets me kinda nervous at the same time. Does she do this often?

- LlamaFluff continues to look horrible to me. He went from claiming that he's not posting stuff because he doesn't have much time to claiming that he's not being very aggressive because he doesn't have any scum reads; only town ones, to claiming that he's trying a brand new playstyle. What's the true reason you're playing in this manner?

- mykonian, what was the point of posts 466 and 467? You seem to rag on me a bit, but I don't see you voting me or FoS-ing me or anything. Do you think I'm scum or what?

We could just lynch her, Incog.

Depending on VP's claim, I'd be totally cool with this. With a vig on scum already, I will absolutely, positively support a lurker lynch.

Zilla and Camn are almost certainly town, btw.

[Incognito]

No I mean like hang on the coattails of others' arguments. I mean, she does seem to be producing

some

original ideas but a lot of them are ideas or points that have been made before just dressed up in a different tuxedo.

[Incognito]

I don't really know how to articulate it, and I think Zilla mentioned this before as well. I guess the best way to say it is if you look at certain posts of Plum's [for example this post (particularly the upper portion when she's listing her issues with VP Baltar) and this post] you'll notice that her writing style seems more like a narrative - something being written from the third person point of view where she seems to be plotting people against people. Some of her statements are in the first-person but a lot of them are not. This strikes me as really off, and I suddenly hate the fact that this game has short deadlines.

[Incognito]

Aaaaaaaaaaand I just cross-posted with a doc claim. Awesome.

VP, were you specifically called a Doctor or some other name?

[Incognito]

Silence = *head desk*?

[Incognito]

I dislike outguessing the mod but according to the Wiki, here is what is stated about Doctors in Werewolf games:

In a Werewolf game, the Doctor is frequently referred to as the Archangel (blocks mafia kills) or Sorceror (blocks werewolf kills).

And I've run a search in Little Italy, and a lot of previous mods called the Doctors in those games "Guardians". What do think about this?

The Vanilla opening PM also calls the Vanillas "Peasants" as opposed to "Townies".

Porkens:

As the game's other claimant so far, do you wish to comment on VP Baltar's claim here?

Pending these answers, I could still go for a VP lynch. I smell fake-claim.

[Incognito]

Porkens: As the game's other claimant so far, do you wish to comment on VP Baltar's claim here?

Nice rolefishing

unvote, Vote: Zazie-darling

How is that rolefishing?

Unvote
Vote: VP Baltar

Die, SCUM.

[Incognito]

P.S. Zilla, you shouldn't have countered.

[Incognito]

You should've killed LF or Kmd. I don't even know which of the two I wanna vote for at this point; they're both so obvscum it's ridiculous.

[Incognito]

I'm cool with that.

vote: LlamaFluff

[Incognito]

Being wrong about VP has shaken my town read on Incognito a bit, and also that he wasn't targetted at night. I also haven't liked Camn's posts lately.

Given your claim and Porkens' vig claim, why would you still expect me to be targeted last night? I'm really upset about being wrong about VP though obviously; I thought after his Doc claim error he was sure to flip scum -- definitely surprised when the dude flipped 'nilla of all things.

I could go for a Kmd-lynch, yeah. I felt like his posts yesterday surrounding the VP-Doc claim looked like he was scum who was confused by what he

thought

was VP telling the truth.

LF, what's your read of Kmd?

[Incognito]

Fun fact

:

LlamaFluff has a knack for fake-claiming town power roles as scum. I'm skeptical of this claim; I don't doubt that he has this ability that he's claiming, but I do doubt whether he's actually town-aligned.

btw, Llama is town.

I'm assuming this means that you did receive whatever it is that LF gave to you during the night, yes? If so, why do you believe that automatically makes him town?

Charter assumed yesterday in one of his reasonings that there was only one scumteam, something that was debated then. He seems surprisingly to be right. I wonder where he got that knowledge...

Do you believe charter is scum? Why no vote?

@Kmd:

Why is charter 'obvtown' to you? Also, which game(s) are you referring to of LF's where you mention that he didn't do this as other town PRs?

I didn't see you do this as a vig or as a JOAT.

I always just fail with any power role. I think I spend too much time during they day trying to figure out how to use my role and not enough scumhunting.

This is an odd answer. Kmd is accusing you of playing differently from how he's seen you play as a town PR in the past, and you seem to completely skip around his issue with you and mention that you always fail as a town PR. So, is his meta of you incorrect or something?

-~-~-~-~-~-~

Camn/Kmd stuff: I don't feel like camn's played too differently from how I'm used to seeing her play as town, and I've modded her as scum before to have that comparison in mind. In fact, I remember Kmd mentioning earlier in Day 1 that he thought camn

was

actually playing similar to how he remembered but now in his case against her, he mentions that he is seeing a contrast from what he remembered. I'm not sure I understand what changed his opinion on her then.

I'm also not sure I understand camn's meta-case against Kmd. Camn, was Kmd actually playing in the game when this Vanilla claimed Doc? Did he react differently to that person's Doc claim than he did here?

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

We only have week-long deadlines from here on out, but I intend to take this nice and slow so we don't make hasty decisions. My vote can stay for now though.

[Incognito]

LlamaFluff, I have to look into a few things with mykonian before deciding whether or not I think you're likely scum with him, but I'm not completely discounting the idea that your role could be a scum role that could even benefit town. Mini 692 - Boost Mafia had a role just like this (see the Godfather role PM at the top of the linked post). The GF had the potential (after being boosted twice, mind you) to not only show up as innocent to potential investigations but also give out boosts to anyone of his choosing at the rate of one per night, which is a powerful scum role since it could potentially seemingly "clear" the GF as town if he happened to give a boost to someone who was town under the same thinking you're trying to sell here: "why would someone who is scum give something that could help town to the town?".

I try to avoid making lynch decisions based on claims; I lynch based on genuinely scummy behavior, and I still feel like your play during D1 was scummy for previously mentioned reasons, so just because you claimed a PR doesn't mean I'm going to automatically check you off as town. It just doesn't work that way.

I do not think I have ever had to claim VT outside of massclaim/lylo situation in my entire history of playing. I normally get ran up as power roles and need to claim. I can think of only a few games as a town power where I did not need to claim.

I'll wait until Kmd links to the games he had in mind before commenting on this further (if I feel further commenting is actually needed).

-~-~-~-~-~-~

camn, I'll allow Kmd to respond to your stuff before I give more of my two cents on it.

[Incognito]

I'll have more time for a post tomorrow while I'm at work but Zilla, I mentioned that you shouldn't have claimed yesterday because I felt like the evidence against VP Baltar was substantial enough to lynch him even without your claim -- there was no need for a counterclaim because his claim didn't make sense given the werewolf flavor of this game. Do note that I pointed out the stuff from the Wiki and past games in Little Italy and only wanted comments from Porkens, the sole claimant at the time, because I felt his input might have helped us determine if VP Baltar's claim could actually fit given the werewolf flavor if Porkens' role PM DIDN'T actually necessarily go along with the flavor. The Vanilla PM and everything else suggested otherwise, so yeah, your counterclaim was really unnecessary because it was obvious VP was lying.

If VP had claimed a protective role that was werewolf flavor-ish (like a Guardian), I'd have totally been cool with you CC-ing since we had already had one scum dead and would be gaining a one for one trade. Your claim rendered your role useless when he'd have been lynched anyway.

[Incognito]

So what if people unvote? That reveals information on its own. Once I got my answer from Porkens, I was definitely going to push a VP-lynch and would have likely succeeded even without your CC.

[Incognito]

Like I said, I was waiting for Porkens' answer to my question and was just leaving work when I asked it. When I got back home from work, you had just counterclaimed and Porkens had already answered. Therefore, I voted. There was no point in delaying any longer.

[Incognito]

I don't know if vigilantes are typically called something different in werewolf flavored games, actually (I was thinking maybe they'd be called archers or something of that sort since they don't kill with bullets it looks like). If Porkens WAS actually named a Vig though, then it might have suggested that maybe VP was telling the truth and that maybe the mod wasn't being as strict with flavor as I first thought. That line of questioning was rendered useless though when you CC'ed.

[Incognito]

Lemme break this down just so it's clear then finally go to bed.

1)

VP claims Doc.

2)

I realize that a Doc claim doesn't make sense given the flavor but dislike outguessing the mod because it's always possible that the mod might have thrown something screwy in there to fuck with our minds.

3)

I question VP a bit about his claim and ask Porkens for some input (to try and figure out if maybe the mod isn't being as strict with flavor as I thought even though a lot of the evidence already gathered seemed to be suggesting otherwise. Better safe than sorry.)

4)

I leave work, come back home, and you already counterclaimed and Porkens accuses me of rolefishing (still not sure how that was rolefishing, btw).

5)

I vote VP because there was nothing left to discuss; you had counterclaimed, VP seemed like he was lying, so let's lynch.

6)

I then mention that you shouldn't have counterclaimed (because it was pointless to do so).

So that's that. Now I sleep.

[Incognito]

With the kinds of roles we've got out in the open already (and with Kmd's softclaim), I've kinda been thinking that maybe we should mass claim. Does anyone agree/disagree? Why?

[Incognito]

On another note, Incog.. what DO you think about KMD softclaiming>?

Depending on the way the softclaim is done, I usually look at soft-claiming as a slight town-tell. In Kmd's case though, I really don't know what to think about it. I guess he might have been really excited about it and eager to get it out in the open, which is mildly town-ish, but for the most part, I just don't know.

I have a number of reasons for wanting mass claim:

1)

Kmd has soft-claimed a power role and claimed that he was roleblocked. I really can't think of any reason why an RB-scum would want to roleblock Kmd (unless they picked up on some kind of breadcrumb he dropped or they have a meta on him that helped them realize he was power, etc.) -- I'd think that a scum RB might want to target someone like Zilla instead if she's telling the truth about her role. If we massclaim and nobody claims to be a roleblocker of some kind, then we can deduce that either there really is a scum RB who claimed something else and is purposely hiding his or her role or that Kmd is lying about his claim.

2)

I really don't like Llama's claim, and I think he's scum. This is going to slightly contradict what I said earlier about wanting to lynch based on scummy behavior, but why would LlamaFluff be called a "Hedge Wizard" in a game that's considered to be a Mini

Normal

? Mini Normals should by definition have

normal, non-theme named

roles that follow either conventional Mafia flavor standards or conventional Werewolf flavor standards. A "hedge wizard" sounds like something that belongs more in a Mini

Theme

. A quick meta of the mod's last mini game shows that he seems to have a good idea of what

normal

roles should look like (see Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City). So why would he break that convention and name LlamaFluff something theme-flavored? It doesn't make any sense.

3)

Like I mentioned previously, we already have some fairly powerful roles out there in the open, and I don't see much harm being done by getting them all out there so that we can better understand what type of set-up we're looking at.

If not enough people agree with mass claim, then I think we need the following

:

1)

Kmd needs to full claim. I don't trust him nearly enough to have him soft-claiming a role and thinking that he might be town because of that -- I think he needs to come forward with his role now.

2)

Zilla said her role didn't have a name, but I'm assuming Porkens' role does. If that's the case, I really think he needs to comment on LlamaFluff's claim and explain if his own role goes outside of the Normal naming conventions. The few roles that we have seen so far (from our dead players) have all followed a fairly normal naming convention (and yes, this even includes the Forest Wolf Governor). If Porkens' role also follows a fairly normal naming convention, then I'd think that would lend even more support for LlamaFluff's claim being B.S., and we could probably lynch him as the werewolf scum that I think he is.

Zilla, I never got an answer from you about this:

Being wrong about VP has shaken my town read on Incognito a bit, and also that he wasn't targetted at night. I also haven't liked Camn's posts lately.

Given your claim and Porkens' vig claim, why would you still expect me to be targeted last night?

This might have seemed like a rhetorical question, but no, I really did want an answer to it.

So, of the two lynches I would like, Charter and KMD, I thought KMD was the closest:

vote KMD

You mentioned prior to this that you were thinking Kmd was scum, but you only placed your vote down on him after Zilla did. Why is that?

SpyreX hates it when the scum don't have safeclaims = massclaim a bad idea.

I didn't see any role PMs in Spy's last game. Were the scum given safe-claims?

[Incognito]

More stuff that's bothering me.

Kmd4390 (0):
Zazier (0):
Plum (0):
Llamafluff (1):

VP Baltar

Porkens (0):
camn (0):
Mykonian (1): camn
charter (0):
Incognito (0):
Zilla (1): Charter
VP Baltar (6): Mykonian, Llamafluff, Zilla, Incognito, Kmd4390, Porkens

(Not voting --

Plum

,

ZazieR

)

Have a look at this final vote count. We've got two people (aside from VP himself) off the VP wagon who ended up flipping town.

LlamaFluff - claims Hedge Wizard
Zilla - claims one-shot Doc
Kmd - soft-claims something
Porkens - claims day vig

This leaves me and mykonian as the only people who haven't claimed who were also on the wagon. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that this VP wagon was completely town-pushed, I know that I'm town, and I find at least two of the four claimants to be rather town-ish (Zilla and Porkens). I think there's gotta be at least 1 scum in {LF, myk, Kmd} because of this.

Does anyone else find it strange that LF almost seems to be "clearing" mykonian as town when LF hasn't even claimed some kind of investigative role? Why would this so-called inventor be so sold on mykonian being town based off of a "gut read", and why would he not be looking at the wagon and other info from D1 to see if his myko-read still might hold true?

[Incognito]

Actually, I've changed my mind on mass claim. I don't think it's necessary. All I really want is the following:

- Porkens should full claim now.
- Kmd should full claim now.
- After these full claims come forward, we should decide whether or not our mod might have given people role names outside of Normal naming conventions.

[Incognito]

Kmd, can you at least claim who you targeted with your role last night? If you're not going to claim, I think you should at least provide that information.

Porkens, an answer to this please:

SpyreX hates it when the scum don't have safeclaims = massclaim a bad idea.

I didn't see any role PMs in Spy's last game. Were the scum given safe-claims?

Also how is charter dismissed from my POE? I said

at least one

of the scums is likely within that group, which is quite useful information because it narrows things down when I focus on my reread. Charter could be an off-wagon scum as can camn, who I also didn't list in my POE, but I haven't decided if I believe either of these two to be likely yet. Why does camn's name not concern you though?

[Incognito]

This leaves me and mykonian as the only people who haven't claimed who were also on the wagon. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that this VP wagon was completely town-pushed, I know that I'm town, and I find at least two of the four claimants to be rather town-ish (Zilla and Porkens). I think there's gotta be at least 1 scum in {LF, myk, Kmd} because of this.

I don't like how charter is dismissed based on your process of elimination.

that

plus that it is pretty useless to think this way, your chances of finding scum haven't improved, and you are more likely to miss things because you dismiss some players.

Really?

We had a day-ending wagon on town. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that at least one of the people on that wagon is scum and this analysis allows for more focused rereads instead of taking the thread in as one huge jumble. You seem terrified.

[Incognito]

unvote
vote: Kmd

let's get him close to lynch then.

[Incognito]

Kmd, can you at least claim who you targeted with your role last night? If you're not going to claim, I think you should at least provide that information.

Why? It gives hints at my role. For example, if I targeted someone protown, my role is protective or something else that helps the person I target. If I went after obvscum, my role is harmful to those who I target. If I went after someone random, I'm investigative or something weird. Why do you want to know my role so badly?

Wait so in SA,

any

player with a PR would receive a flavor PM saying they got roleblocked?

[Incognito]

Hmmm... interesting. I see what you're getting at now.

unvote

for the time being.

See, 'round here, I'm sure you know, only investigative type roles receive notice that they've been roleblocked, so I didn't understand why you were trying to conceal it so closely when I thought that would be quite apparent to the scum anyway after your soft-claim.

[Incognito]

First: Incognito, you appeared pretty pro-town yesterday, and when I'm scum, I usually target people who have little chance of being lynched. Our death was someone who stood more chance of being lynched than you, which I found odd, to say the least.

Eh, I guess. If anything, I'm more surprised that you and Porkens are alive after the types of claims the both of you put forward. I'm not saying I think either one of you is scum, and I can see why the scum might keep you two alive (if Porkens is town, they can always up the tempo on the SK-threat paranoia and with you, your role is fairly unconfirmable) but still, it's interesting.

-~-~-~-~-~-~

Wow, check out this vote count on mykonian:

Mykonian (5): Incognito, Zilla, VP Baltar, camn, Plum

With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday June 11th 10:30 PST

Does that not feel town-ish? If he's scum, I'm gonna feel pretty dumb that I helped shift the wagon away from him, but I'm beginning to think this might have been one of those wagons that was 100% right but was just right too quickly, which made it seem like it could have been a scum-driven wagon.

[/b]Pseudovote: mykonian[/b]

Not voting him because doing so would place him at L-1 currently, but I certainly support this wagon. I might need to look into the dynamics of how his wagon lost momentum around that time more quickly, though I suspect I might have been partly to blame LOL.

And I do agree that charter needs to post.

[Incognito]

Flavor for the RB is that I tried to get some sleep and (I'm trying to paraphrase because I think using this word says enough for a modkill if I quote it directly) an "evil" took over what I was dreaming about. I started having nightmares about death and troubles. I woke up to see that it was already day and I was too tired to do anything, so I didn't. Then I'm specifically told that it was a roleblock.

Oh, one more interesting tidbit. I was roleblocked last night.

I can see it coming from either alignment

, but I feel like I should get that out there. I got flavor via Mod-PM (much more common on SA than it is here. I kind of like it, actually). I'll hold off on saying what I tried to do until I have to claim at some point.

Woah.

Your paraphrasing seems to imply that this was something evil that roleblocked you. Why did you mention in post 524 that you could see the roleblock coming from either alignment?

[Incognito]

Mykonian, I just can't think of any reason why a hypo-Porkens-daykilling-SK would claim the way he did. It wasn't like he was rung up to a claim or anything -- he voluntarily soft-claimed and then voluntarily came forward with his claim. Do you really think an SK would paint that bright of a bullseye on himself without having any further knowledge about the set-up?

[Incognito]

Point: camn

This is why I like playing with this girl.

In other news, Kmd better have one heck of an explanation for Post 638...

[Incognito]

Flavor indicates scum, but based on game events, I can see a few people blocking me as town.

Based on game events, maybe, at least if you think the people who have been attacking you are town (you've voted for Camn so I'm assuming that's not the case, and you've leaned town-ish on me, and Zilla already claimed to be a Doc so she obviously couldn't be an RB), but the flavor you've claimed seems to make this quite clear-cut -- you were blocked by scum. I'm not sure if I think this is a mild slip from you or if you just didn't think through this carefully.

As for the case on mykonian, I think there's some residual stuff that's still left over from Day 1 (the building up to his Zilla-vote, his eventual vote after taking a relatively short amount of time meta-ing her based on games that just don't seem to fit the mold he was even looking for, his "clearing" of LF as town Today seems really odd to me -- I can't believe he hasn't considered the possibility that LF's claim could come from scum, his switch in position on Porkens along with the fact that he seems to be calling for an SK-lynch -- I'd expect this to come more from scum than town at this stage of the game, the stuff I pointed out about the vote counts, and he's still done some vote following Today -- he only voted for you

after

Zilla did despite making it clear that he thought you was scum prior to Zilla's vote. Oh and his really weak pot-shot at charter simply because charter didn't want to talk about two scum groups yesterday?). The guy reeks of scum.

Why do you believe mykonian is town?

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Charter needs to post more but at least he has good taste with his LF-vote. Charter, about the two scum group thing, I agree it was a pointless discussion in this particular game but it was absolutely necessary in Mafia in Ludd -- in Ludd we at least HAD evidence that two mafia teams might have existed; in this SpyreX-game, we had and still have no such evidence.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

And Zilla speaks the truth on this page. I still dislike LlamaFluff's claim; he didn't even attempt to defend himself before claiming -- he just allowed himself to reach L-2 and then decided to claim. The whole action just seems really calculated for my taste almost like he had this whole thing planned all along and figured it would keep the town off his back.

Also, he seems COMPLETELY uninterested in finding scum. He claims to have all these gut reads on people being town or scum but hasn't put in a single drop of effort to try and determine WHY these gut reads are what they are and elaborate on them to form cohesive ideas/cases.

Actually, screw this --

vote: LlamaFluff, Major FoS: mykonian

. GAWD one of these two needs to die today.

but ok, here you go: Llama gives compulsive one shot doc powers. If he is scum, he could give it to a member of his team.

He could not give it the first day: means that night one someone else has to be a doc (check)

.

We had covered this already -- I think it's perfectly feasible to believe that LF could still be scum who might grant powers to town in an effort to seem more pro-town OR you could simply be scum with him. I don't understand what you're saying in what I've bolded blue. Could you clarify that?

Who did you use your one-shot doc power on last night, btw?

[Incognito]

Also, myk, I'd like to know why you think LF can only give one-shot doc powers out. He's claimed to be an inventor and inventors can typically give all kinds of things out, but you seem to be implying that this is the only thing he can give. Why why why?

[Incognito]

LF: That's not my issue with you though. Every single one of your reads so far (with the possible exception of charter who you have given reason for voting for), you've claimed to have been a gut read. I have no problem with the occasional gut read, I have no problem with town-hunting -- I do this kind of stuff all the time as well. I

do

have a problem with what I perceive to be a lack of interest on your part to determine

why

these people feel either town-ish or scummy to you.

Out of curiosity, when you voted for ZazieR earlier Today, were you planning on pushing her lynch or was that more a pressure vote?

Are you saying that EVERYONE other than you are all scumbuddies with me? Maybe you should consider that, for the first time since Tranquility, we are both town?

I thought that you thought Kmd was scum? Also, SA is the website called "Something Awful". It's basically another forum where some Mafia games are played, though I don't think Mafia is their primary

modus operandi

.

If he's scum and we lynch his partner today; he'll be next to useless.

Eh, this is a fair point. I won't be unvoting just yet though.

[Incognito]

incog; booo

lol. I get the feeling that if I place myko at L-1, you'll just hammer in your next post. I don't think we need that yet. I wanna take a closer look at charter and maybe camn, though I really don't get scum vibes from either one of them at this time.

[Incognito]

I WOULD but I'm already voting.

...so you are.

there seems to be some confusion about what Llama gave me. I can use it tonight. but because you all wanted my claim, now scum can happily block me and kill Porkens. congratulations.

You mean the Porkens who you were claiming was a daytime SK? Why would that bother you?

now, our dear Incog is only trying to lynch pr's. Like porkens says, a scum inventor isn't that likely.

I'm trying to lynch one particular

claimed

PR. I'm sure that's what you meant, right?

It doesn't matter if a scum inventor isn't likely; I've shown why I think LF could be scum, I've shown why I don't completely buy this claim as a definite town ability, so I don't see what you're getting at here. A PR claim doesn't make someone exempt from a lynch in my book; I lynch based on genuinely scummy behavior and will lynch a claimed PR and have done so in the past if I don't buy the claim.

but at least, it seems a good idea to me to leave me alive today. I have a oneshot power, and it would be nice to try to use it.

I thought you said this power was

compulsive

. Why wouldn't you have used it when you first got it then?

[Incognito]

unvote
vote: mykonian

putting him at L-1. That last post was awful. Claim, plz.

[Incognito]

Just realized LF missed part of my post.

LF, how about this:

Out of curiosity, when you voted for ZazieR earlier Today, were you planning on pushing her lynch or was that more a pressure vote?

-~-~-~-~-~

now, assuming I am scum, and got a one shot doc power from Llama. would it make sense to claim blocked tomorrow? wouldn't that mean that scum cant block someone else? No matter what, you benefit if you wait with my lynch, and probably let me get killed by porkens after 3 posts

Unless this roleblock flavor that Kmd claims to have received extends to everyone in the game, as a protective role, you wouldn't even learn whether or not you've been roleblocked. I don't even understand the rationale you're using to explain why you should be kept alive until tomorrow. You've claimed to have gained a one-shot doc ability. Not a one-shot Cop. A one-shot Doc. Something fairly unconfirmable. Who do you propose we lynch in place of you anyway? Before you started defending yourself from accusations, you were scrutinizing Porkens who you now claim would be your "Doc" protection and now you've recently FoS-ed me. Am I your top suspect?

Kmd:

Please spell out why myk is "obvtown" unless it only has to do with the reasoning you used previously. Because I'm really not seeing it.

[Incognito]

Also, LF, this bit seems counter-intuitive to me:

I just still think myk is town on how he came to the same conclusions I did early, and just a bit by how the wagons fell off zilla and myk to go to VP.

Could you break it down for me?

[Incognito]

LF, so your thinking seems to be as follows:

Day 1

-> Two competing wagons on town in the Zilla one and the mykonian one (because you've claimed that you think both Zilla and myk are town).
-> The mykonian one crumbles faster and shifts to VP who we now know was definite town.
-> And this makes you think that mykonian is................ town?

Seriously, how?

Meh, I guess fair enough to the ZazieR-vote. I asked because I don't typically look to Day 2's of all times to push lurker-lynches; I usually try to get those out of the way on Day 1.

[Incognito]

I think we also need to revisit: why was KMD blocked when there was a claimed doctor already out?

And damn, this nearly slipped my mind.

[Incognito]

LF, I'd like your thoughts on Kmd's soft-claim please along with him being roleblocked. You haven't really talked much about Kmd all day, which is flat-out weird.

[Incognito]

Weirdness between Kmd and LF:

Day 1:

Incog, I think Llama is a better player than to do this just because of who is in the game. I'm sure there is a logical reason for his play. I'm just trying to figure out what alignment it is coming from. Be careful of thinking something is scummy just because you don't understand it.

Llama, it's not that you are missing questions. It's that you aren't the one asking questions. You are NOT a passive player. But here, you are. Why? You need to finally address this or you're gonna end up lynched.

Im not playing entirely against every meta I have. I am trying to not take control of a game though when I dont have any scum reads, only town ones.

This doesn't sound like you...

I wanted to see if you were going to dig yourself into any bigger hole then what I saw coming from you over your reasoning between choosing one case over the other when they seemed to be of equal merit to you. Apparently if I am going to change playstyle I need to go make an alt.

Or you just say that you are trying a new playstyle.

What advantage is there to the style you have chosen over your own?

Im not really having as much fun, but if someone has a better idea of whats going on, I would rather let them help. If I really dont have a good read going in aggressive mode will more likely get in the way then be a benificial.

Why not look closer until you are more confident in your reads. I know you are a good player. It's not showing in this game.

Llama looks scummy, so I am suspicious of him and considering voting him.

My vote hasn't moved because you are still my top suspect.

Day 2:

So, obviously, I'll

Vote Llama

, my other suspect. His change of play is obviously intentional, and I don't buy that he's trying a new playstyle or that he's too busy. He needs to explain himself or die.

Also im a little surprised kmd never noticed that I was playing to my power role meta a bit (which is basically just playing really shitty). This is standard play for me whenever I get anything thats non-vanilla really.

I didn't see you do this as a vig or as a JOAT.

Why did you choose Mykonian for your invention?

Unvote

. You aren't confirmed, but there's no reason to lynch you just yet. I want Myko to confirm that he got an item. And I want to point out that inventor isn't always a town role.

Vote Camn

. My next suspect.

Conclusions

: During Day 1, Kmd continuously mentions very vague suspicions of LF but holds his vote on Zilla claiming that he still finds her play scummiest. Lots of subtle "coaching" vibes. He even seems to mildly suggest in his Post 344 that LF might be playing the way he has here because he might have a PR.

Day 2 comes and Kmd votes LF immediately, but then quickly unvotes, and they both claim PRs. Again, more mild suspicion thrown from Kmd to LF, but LF for the most part avoids the topic "Kmd".

I'd hate to say I'm suffering from confirmation bias or something but these interactions do NOT sit well with me at all. I'm getting this really weird feeling that mykonian could be being used as a pawn between two fake-claiming scum buddies if mykonian is indeed town.

What's stranger still though is how mykonian seems to not think either one of Kmd or LF is scummy also. There's something really weird going on in this triangle and Incog doesn't like it one bit.

[Incognito]

I think he's trying to say that if he was scum, he could have come up with a fake-claim a long time ago since he was being wagoned since Day 1. I can see two sides to this, really:

-> what he says has some validity since even when the wagon was extremely close to lynch

(

like L-1 and L-2 back on D1

)

, he never claimed anything

(

which is more suggestive of a vanilla player

)

, but then again he was never asked to.
-> at the same time, the flip side of this is a scum might not WANT to claim something until D2 comes around and he or she learns more about the set-up especially considering the fact that afatchic-scum was insta-killed -- if a hypo-scum claimed something and got counterclaimed, he or she would be lynched pronto and if we assume a scum team of 3, then that would pretty much be Game Over for the scums with a single scum left in a sea of near-confirmed townies.

So, no, I don't really buy the whole WIFOM defense that myk is putting forth here since I can think of reason why a myk-scum wouldn't claim something other than 'nilla.

mykonian, thoughts on post 710?

[Incognito]

Why would only I get RB flavor?

I don't know what your role is, so I really couldn't answer that. It could be roletype-specific.

Call it coaching if you want, but I originally thought he was trying some sort of Gambit and needed to explain it. When he didn't explain, I thought less and less that this was the case.

I didn't see Llama as a power role. I saw him as doing something different. No idea what, but something.

Llama was one of my top 3 suspects on Day 1. One died and the other counter-claimed as doc. Pretty obvious why I voted him. I unvoted because of his claim.

Now that LF's claimed role is out in the open, do you feel like LF has shifted into a playstyle that fits more into the style of play that you're used to?

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

LF's disinterest in this game continues. There's no way this guy's a pro-town power role.

[Incognito]

hmmmmm, nope.

vote: Mykonian

L-1

L-2 btw.

[Incognito]

how about we just lynch mykonian and call it a day?

[Incognito]

mod:

zilla's voting mykonian too as of post 754.

[Incognito]

how about we just lynch mykonian and call it a day?

I'm a little leery of this post too.

Why?

[Incognito]

Hi. Probable LYLO, nobody votes. We need to mass claim.

[Incognito]

vote no lynch

Or we could do that.. should we not learn night actions first or anything?

[Incognito]

Errr... I'm not sure I'm following why LF is questioning only Zilla about being roleblocked.

LF, you already claimed a PR and Kmd softclaimed a PR too. Why haven't you directed this same line of questioning towards Kmd?

[Incognito]

What does it achieve though? Are you basically trying to determine if Kmd was lying or not or are you doubting Zilla's claim?

[Incognito]

Still not liking LF, and I really dislike how he's opened up Day 3. Why so eager to try and "confirm" Kmd as town? Especially after mentioning back in post 707 that you weren't crazy about how he went back and forth on the flavor of what alignment targeted him? Wouldn't you be curious to find out the roleblocking

flavor

that Zilla received as opposed to just determining if she got roleblocked?

I think we definitely need to mass-claim before we do anything else. It's only me, charter, camn, and Kmd who haven't full-claimed yet, so we should probably get that out of the way first before doing anything else. I'll even kick it off: I'm vanilla.

After this, we should probably learn LF's "target" last night, and I wouldn't mind learning Zilla's RB PM flavor (if there even WAS any flavor to begin with) to see if there's any info we can draw from that.

[Incognito]

Call me naive, but I would assume that Zilla being blocked with completely different flavor would of already have been claimed. I wasnt crazy about figuring out who the RB came from due to flavor, since I could of seen kmd being blocked regardless of alignment near the end of D1. What I cared about was who was RBed, not the flavor (unless it was completely different).

But Kmd claimed flavor that could

only

suggest that he was being targeted by a scum roleblocker ("evil" forces, etc, etc.). And in his opening post during Day 2, he mentioned that he could see the roleblocker being of either alignment (scum or town), which was an inconsistency that I called him out on (see post 638). This inconsistency didn't and still doesn't concern you in the least?

I targeted porkens. I figured if he was going to be targeted, scum would either need to be desperate enough to hope that zilla used her protection and roleblock someone else if it was a scum RB, which I didnt see happening too much if the RB existed. If there was no RB, I didnt see Porkens dying without Zilla dying.

So I figured I target Porkens and Zilla gets RBed with him dying which makes kmd very town, or Porkens doesnt die and gets the invention.

I don't even understand this logic. In essence, you seem to lean here towards believing that Zilla was going to survive last night no matter what, so I don't really get why you would target Porkens when you seem to lean towards thinking he was going to be killed. And Kmd's claim post had already suggested that the RB was a scum one so there really shouldn't have been any ambiguity there anyway.

[Incognito]

LF, any reason you didn't respond to anything I mentioned in 803? Also, what Zilla just mentioned is critical: there's absolutely no reason why you should have assumed that Zilla was going to be roleblocked and that all of these actions would somehow "clear" Kmd coming into Today. If you actually look back at what I mentioned when I entered the thread Today, I questioned why you were singling Zilla out when we already had at least three PR claims or semi-claims and then I specifically mentioned what you're accusing me of not seeing:

What does it achieve though? Are you basically trying to determine if Kmd was lying or not or are you doubting Zilla's claim?

I agree with that. But I still don't see what this has to do with you giving an invention to Porkens.

Because if porkens died it would almost 100% of confirmed zilla and you as town. I did not expect scum to confirm two in order to take out a vig.

You're still ducking the issue here though. Giving an invention to Zilla last night as opposed to Porkens would have still achieved the above-mentioned condition EVEN IF she got roleblocked last Night and Porkens died. I don't get why you gave this invention to someone who you seemed to have been thinking was pretty much going to die -- it essentially became a wasted invention since it doesn't do Town any good in the hands of a dead guy, correct?

[Incognito]

In addition to what's been mentioned above by Zilla, Kmd

did

basically soft-claim a

power role

Yesterday. I don't see why scum would want to roleblock a one-shot doc just to kill off a Porkens-vig when they would very likely be concerned about the type of power a hypo-Kmd-town PR might have. Why would scum roleblock Kmd during Night 1 and then roleblock Zilla during Night 2 just to kill off Porkens when they'd have had to realize their roleblock was both a) effective and b) had likely hit a town PR (due to what Kmd mentioned Yesterday in-thread)?

Basically, I really want Kmd to claim immediately and share whatever info (if any) he claims to have learned last Night.

[Incognito]

Why Camn Night 1, and why didn't you do anything last Night?

[Incognito]

LlamaFluff, basically, here's what I want to know: Last night, when you were deciding who to give your invention to, what were your main thoughts about the roleblocker that Kmd claimed had targeted him? Were you leaning towards thinking that the roleblocker was a town one or were you leaning towards thinking that the roleblocker was a scum one? You should be able to have an answer to this regardless of your thoughts about mod flavor.

Once this is answered, I should (hopefully) have a more appropriate response to everything that's been said by you Today.

[Incognito]

Cross-posted...

Didn't do anything in case of the RB. I don't want more actions wasted.

...but we mislynched Yesterday and were therefore very close to a LyLo situation. Wouldn't the potential gain of using your ability outweigh the risk of being roleblocked considering your chances to use your claimed ability(ies) were getting slimmer and slimmer?

[Incognito]

Okay, given that response, I'd first like to clear a few things up here.

:arrow: If we are to believe that both Kmd and Zilla are telling the truth here, the only thing that seems to

lend support

to (not clears) Kmd4390 as possibly being Town here is the fact that Zilla has come into the thread and claimed that she's been roleblocked in the exact same fashion as Kmd claimed to have been roleblocked. Your invention-giving has absolutely nothing to do with "clearing" Kmd as town. So I'm confused by why you keep insisting that it does.

:arrow: If you buy both Zilla's and Porkens' claims and now mention that you were leaning slightly towards believing that the roleblocker was a scum one, with a claimed One-Shot Doctor whose ability works through the Night and a claimed Daytime Vigilante whose ability works through the Day, I'd think that the Vig would be more likely to be killed than the Doc

especially

since the Vig could only daykill and had the ability to use his power more than once. What would be more damaging to the scum assuming that the role is being used to 100% efficacy: a role that can be used an infinite amount of times (i.e. a multi-shot dayvig) or a role that can be used a finite number of times (i.e. a one-shot doc)?

Also, with you thinking that the roleblocker was more likely to be a scum one, you should have also been thinking that a Zilla-Doc would be targeted by a roleblocker while a Porkens-vig would be targeted for an NK. After all, why would the scum risk attempting to kill Porkens unless they had Zilla's Doc ability blocked off when, if Zilla's ability wasn't blocked off, their kill wouldn't go through and both players would survive the Night and seem "confirmed"?

Because of all this, I'd think the obvious invention receiver for you should have been Zilla (who only claimed a one-shot ability) and not Porkens if you were limiting your choices down to two people since

a)

you claim that you believe Zilla's claim and would therefore be thinking your invention would be ending up in the hands of town and

b)

your invention would still be able to be used by someone who is of the town and still alive; not some dead guy who can't use it in the afterlife. Your goal as a claimed pro-town Inventor should have simply been to make sure that your invention ends up in the hands of a townie who might still be alive to functionally use it; you'd have no control over whether or not the scum would or could "confirm" someone in the process (via an NK or a roleblock).


So that, in a nutshell, kinda gets at my issues with what you've been talking about Today.

[Incognito]

Also, Camn, I don't see the appeal of a Zilla/Kmd4390 scum team. Way too many things that have happened that seem to go against that pairing.

[Incognito]

That was the most awesome septuple post I've ever seen in my life.

[Incognito]

Oh and I agree. I don't think I even buy into a No Lynch anymore. Losing Zilla tonight just to try get the game down to 5 people would be dumb.

[Incognito]

I thought for sure I'd be blocked again. It would have been an easy way for me to be set up as today's lynch.

Why?

[Incognito]

Camn, thoughts on what LF has been saying? Why can't you see LF as scum?

[Incognito]

Kmd, I actually think the way you're claiming this played out looks worse on you than if you had claimed to have been roleblocked again. It looks like you might be trying to limit information to the town by claiming that you didn't use your action last Night. If you're scum, your incentive for claiming the way you have would be to a) survive, obviously, by claiming a PR and b) not clear someone as town to keep the mislynch spread as wide as possible (I have no clue what other things a JOAT could do actually but I assume an investigative type of thing might be up a hypo-JOAT's sleeve).

Further, I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around why scum targeted you N1 and Zilla N2. RB-ing Zilla both nights makes infinitely more sense to me.

Lastly, I don't get why an ongoing thing with camn would make you want to kill her here in this game when during Day 1, you felt like she was town-ish and LlamaFluff was your top suspect after the VP flip. Why you wouldn't target him during N1 is beyond me.

[Incognito]

If so, then the scum is Charter and Incog, right!?

Except I'm obvtown and the two people who've claimed PRs look really scummy here.

Charter needs to claim.

[Incognito]

Well, unless you think Zilla and I are scum together, that's what happened.

And this, in my mind, is your saving grace (at least for Today). I can't see scum not using their RB during Night 1, and I'd

think

the mod would not tell the RB that his or her roleblocks get sent with flavor (which means that a you-scum wouldn't know about this SA-like flavor).

LF-lynch >> Kmd-lynch Today by far. An LF/Kmd pairing makes so much sense to me but maybe it's all confirmation bias kicking in. I might have to read back to see if either one of camn or charter makes sense as LF's partner. I'm pretty sure LF is scum though.

[Incognito]

Did you think Plum was scum?
Why did you think camn would be killed last Night as opposed to Zilla or Porkens?

[Incognito]

'specially in potential LyLo. Reveal, plz.

[Incognito]

Zilla, you've undoubtedly been rocking in this game. But surely you do realize that a promise isn't worth much in a game of Mafia right?

[Incognito]

Zilla, you've undoubtedly been rocking in this game.

Basis for this? I counterclaimed and got a vanilla townie lynched and pushed heavily for the lynch of another vanilla townie. What makes me appear to have been "rocking in this game"?

Good, strong scum-hunting, being obvtown, remaining highly active (are you at 200 posts yet?), not afraid to speak your mind and try gambits, pretty much every single thing you've said this game has matched my exact same frame of thought... do I need to go on? If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were basically me with...... a female anatomy.

Sure, we ended up mislynching a vanilla due to your counterclaim and mislynched another vanilla Yesterday, but sometimes that's the price you gotta pay. I'm as much to blame for that as you are.

-~-~-~-~-~-~

I won't be voting just yet. I think I might see what's going on here though.

[Incognito]

Can I not answer yet?

[Incognito]

Aren't rhetorical questions fun? (another one!)

[Incognito]

So Zilla, the answer to your question is simple: I just wanted to see how charter would react to your vote and whether or not he would try to discredit it. I wasn't sure if you actually had some kind of rolebased information or something that could absolutely prove charter as scum, but I figured you might be pulling some kind of gambit to see if charter would try and discredit your vote and you in general after "clearing" you as town due to his so-called bus driver abilities.

The only "lie" Zilla could possibly have caught me in is if she doc'ed herself night one, which clearly wasn't the case, and she's just trying to lynch me because she thinks she is clever.

This is a strange response considering the fact that he claims his bus driver abilities helped prove to himself that Zilla was town.

Also, Incog will be voting me shortly (probably right after Kmd or Llama does). I can read minds.

And this reads like scum trying to create a shit-load of WIFOM (trying to possibly connect people to him as scum).

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

The fact that Kmd hasn't hammered yet means that either charter really is scum or if we're dealing with a scum team of two, both scum are probably on his wagon already (if he's town), which I'm doubting. I don't mind hammering at this point unless anyone else has anything else to say.

[Incognito]

k. Feel free to discuss.

[Incognito]

Wow... Just got back from the Beach Bash and finally got a chance to post here to say YAY! Glad we won!!

I should have more comments about this game when I fully sober up by tomorrow or something.

[Incognito]

Eh, looking back on this, I feel pretty good about my performance here. Yeah, I helped push a couple of mislynches, but I still feel like my suspicions were generally in the right ballpark for the most part. It occurs to me that camn had me somewhat fooled for awhile, but I probably would have given her a good amount of flak if Day 4 happened for her WIFOM comment about how she would have bussed charter if she was scum with him. Also, I did find her case against Kmd to be weird (about how he shouldn't have pushed a VP lynch because of some other game where a 'nilla claimed Doctor) but thought she probably wasn't scum because I too found Kmd to be scummy at that point as well. I guess eventually finding out that we were dealing with two scum groups might have helped me compensate for the whole "well, I don't think they could be scum together" line of thinking.

And wow, LlamaFluff was town? Sorry for the constant pushing, dude, but... yeah. I was even more convinced you were scum when you kept trying to push the idea that your giving your invention to Porkens absolutely cleared Kmd as town -- that line of thinking made absolutely no sense to me, sorry.

Also, Incognito's crazy pro-town play is what I was expecting (and failed to get) from KMD. Good job Incog!

Zilla or Incog def. get MVP. You guys did a good job.

Thanks a lot, you two! I think Zilla played an AMAZING game, and I too would give her the MVP award if we were awarding one. I'd gladly play a game with her again after enjoying this one so much, too.

I pretty much agree with Zilla's sentiments about Zazie and Plum -- I always wanted to play a game with both of them but it seems like they were a bit too busy doing offline things to really get into this one. I'll try to look for both of you in some other game I guess.

Eh, Porkens played a decent game -- even though he hit scum on D1, I still think a day-vig or any vig for that matter could help town gain a lot more info by at LEAST allowing a potential kill victim to produce at least SOME game-related content. Killing afatchic helped reduce the scum pool by one but gave us little to work with with respect to information since he didn't produce any reads on anyone or any real content. And the ZazieR kill was way too quick during Day 2 -- why not ask for a claim from her or check to see if someone had some kind of role-based information on her alignment? If someone did have role-based info, you basically wasted it by just killing her right from the start. Just my opinion.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Uhhh, modding related stuff.

I thought you did a good job with the vote counts and the in-thread stuff -- it felt like an accurate vote count was there for all the players to see at least once every few pages. I think the dayvig role was pretty cool -- a lot of players seem to talk about it on MD and always seem to cite it as a role they'd like to some day have but you don't really see too many mods incorporating them into games, oddly enough. So kudos to you for that.

I'm not sure how I feel about a self-protecting Jailkeeper -- seems like an extremely strong role, especially if the player in question is looked at as practically confirmed by damn near everyone in the game.

Balance-wise I'd say this game looks like it was slightly town-favoring, though I guess the quick deadlines were meant to off-set that. And lol @ cross-kills.

Thanks for modding, SpyreX, and thanks to whoever invited me to this thing -- I was really honored.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

All in all I had a lot of fun in this game and would gladly play with any of you again.

[Incognito]

incog... I think zilla is town.

I think i will reread Kmd tonight, and you should reread llama.
Then tomorrow we can bring some old-fashioned vanilla arguments to the table, since these guys are so PowerRole crazy!

PS. A fun detail....

When I posted this, I was pretty convinced that Incog was the OTHER scum... and I was trying to direct his kill.

I was hoping for a me/incog-scum/Zilla engame, where I would try and get incog lynched, but could always fall back on the old obliteration draw.......

Too bad KMD tricked me!

lol. What made you think I was the other scum?

And if I WAS scum, do you really think you'd be able to convince Zilla to lynch me over you?

[Incognito]

I MIGHT have been able to be convinced of Incog being guilty just because I've been just as pro-town as scum before, but you'd have your work cut out for you, especially given my neutral-slightly scummy read on you to begin with.

Heh.

It's all in my meta, I think. The people who actually know me and play with me often would have definitely vouched for me being obvtown here. I don't think my scum play looks similar to the way I've played here, though I might be wrong. Either way, I would have definitely tried to show you examples of my scum play and town play and gone from there hopefully.

I bought KMD's claim! And you were the last one.

This is interesting because I was leaning towards not buying Kmd's claim. I couldn't see any reason why a pro-town PR would actually forgo usage of one of his powers just because he supposedly feared being roleblocked. It didn't make much sense to me especially given the game-state (approaching closer and closer to LyLo).

---

One of the issues I had with this game actually was I always felt like there were so many scummy-seeming people and dealing with all of them at once was very difficult since I realized there was a very real chance that some of the scummy-seeming people were actually town. If it were left up to me, I'd have totally vigged all of the claimed PRs (except Zilla and Porkens) and seen what I was left with afterwards haha.

[Incognito]

Yeah, I was definitely feeling you on the Kmd/Llama suspicions. Kmd didn't feel much like the way he felt in the one game I played with him before, and I never played with Llama before to have much of a meta on him but them as a pairing made so much sense to me.

833 to 839 still make me giggle every time I look back at them.