Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[Kmd4390]

KMD did not defend, he just tried to skew/slant the case against him. The fact remains that he did no scumhunting yesterday except tunneling on me. All his VP hate was copied from myself and Incog. He irrationally defended charter and mykonian. Even his Llama problems were already precedented by my comments on how Llama isn't playing as usual.

The points against me were weak. I defended as such.

And ok, I tunneled on you, VP, Llama, Plum, Incog, and Camn and I tunneled on Myko, Charter, and Porkens being town. So you're right. I tunneled on about half of the game.

Incog raised a valid point on VP. I thought he was scum. Was I supposed to ignore that until something new came up and just hope I could jump on it before someone else? No. I'm going to vote for who I think is scum. I don't care what I look like. If I think someone is scum, they have my vote.

How is it irrational to defend someone who you have a town read on? Especially with Myko. He came near a lynch that I strongly disagreed with. If a lynch I don't like is about to happen, I'm going to try and stop it. See Stormer in Tranquility. See TM in large Family Guy. See any player I've ever thought was town that was coming near a lynch. I step up and say "Hey, I disagree. Let's lynch this person instead." Ok, I could have done more for Stormer in Tranquility, but you get the idea.

And no, my suspicions on Llama were based on games that I have played with him. I gave him the benefit of the doubt at first because I was waiting for him to step up and say, "Ok, here's why I did this and here's why it helped". When he didn't do that, I started to get worried. Then I got suspicious.

I read him in isolation; he was one of the most shaken up by porkens killing afatchic, and he recanted his position on me ON A DIME with no reasoning.

Actually, based on this,

unvote: KMD
vote: Llamafluff

Define "shaken up" and point out where you see this.

[Kmd4390]

Zilla,

unvote

Need to read and see what this changes, but today was a long day in the field so im too tired (and have damn posion oak) to get a good opinion down.

Is

this

the "shaken up" post? It's his first after afat's death and I can agree that it kind of looks like someone whose buddy just died early on Day 1. Next few posts just speculate on Porkens a little and go after Zazie for calling Porkens scum. Possible connection. The inventor claim is the one thing keeping my vote off of Llama. Yes, I believe the claim. I'm just trying to determine whether he is a scum inventor or not.

[mykonian]

I disagree with roleclaiming. I would like to hear from Mykonian what Llama's effect was though.

KMD did not defend, he just tried to skew/slant the case against him. The fact remains that he did no scumhunting yesterday except tunneling on me. All his VP hate was copied from myself and Incog. He irrationally defended charter and mykonian. Even his Llama problems were already precedented by my comments on how Llama isn't playing as usual.

And Mykonian, it is pretty obvious that Llama is playing differently here. While it's also true I haven't seen him as scum before, I'm not ready to say he's scum. It is interesting how tightly you two are sticking together though.

and now you expect that I'm going to tell you, while it won't help us a bit, because you don't want a massclaim. Doesn't seem a smart plan to me. We can do a massclaim, something that can barely hurt, since two strong pr's are already in the open, and then I want to tell you what I think.

Porkens, no, I didn't hear it was done by an inventor, yes: something happened.

Mod, did this setup get reviewed?

[mykonian]

unvote

probably a good idea, I want to know more before we do anything.

Porkens, why shoot so early today? You could have had the whole day to get more information before your shot.

[Incognito]

On another note, Incog.. what DO you think about KMD softclaiming>?

Depending on the way the softclaim is done, I usually look at soft-claiming as a slight town-tell. In Kmd's case though, I really don't know what to think about it. I guess he might have been really excited about it and eager to get it out in the open, which is mildly town-ish, but for the most part, I just don't know.

I have a number of reasons for wanting mass claim:

1)

Kmd has soft-claimed a power role and claimed that he was roleblocked. I really can't think of any reason why an RB-scum would want to roleblock Kmd (unless they picked up on some kind of breadcrumb he dropped or they have a meta on him that helped them realize he was power, etc.) -- I'd think that a scum RB might want to target someone like Zilla instead if she's telling the truth about her role. If we massclaim and nobody claims to be a roleblocker of some kind, then we can deduce that either there really is a scum RB who claimed something else and is purposely hiding his or her role or that Kmd is lying about his claim.

2)

I really don't like Llama's claim, and I think he's scum. This is going to slightly contradict what I said earlier about wanting to lynch based on scummy behavior, but why would LlamaFluff be called a "Hedge Wizard" in a game that's considered to be a Mini

Normal

? Mini Normals should by definition have

normal, non-theme named

roles that follow either conventional Mafia flavor standards or conventional Werewolf flavor standards. A "hedge wizard" sounds like something that belongs more in a Mini

Theme

. A quick meta of the mod's last mini game shows that he seems to have a good idea of what

normal

roles should look like (see Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City). So why would he break that convention and name LlamaFluff something theme-flavored? It doesn't make any sense.

3)

Like I mentioned previously, we already have some fairly powerful roles out there in the open, and I don't see much harm being done by getting them all out there so that we can better understand what type of set-up we're looking at.

If not enough people agree with mass claim, then I think we need the following

:

1)

Kmd needs to full claim. I don't trust him nearly enough to have him soft-claiming a role and thinking that he might be town because of that -- I think he needs to come forward with his role now.

2)

Zilla said her role didn't have a name, but I'm assuming Porkens' role does. If that's the case, I really think he needs to comment on LlamaFluff's claim and explain if his own role goes outside of the Normal naming conventions. The few roles that we have seen so far (from our dead players) have all followed a fairly normal naming convention (and yes, this even includes the Forest Wolf Governor). If Porkens' role also follows a fairly normal naming convention, then I'd think that would lend even more support for LlamaFluff's claim being B.S., and we could probably lynch him as the werewolf scum that I think he is.

Zilla, I never got an answer from you about this:

Being wrong about VP has shaken my town read on Incognito a bit, and also that he wasn't targetted at night. I also haven't liked Camn's posts lately.

Given your claim and Porkens' vig claim, why would you still expect me to be targeted last night?

This might have seemed like a rhetorical question, but no, I really did want an answer to it.

So, of the two lynches I would like, Charter and KMD, I thought KMD was the closest:

vote KMD

You mentioned prior to this that you were thinking Kmd was scum, but you only placed your vote down on him after Zilla did. Why is that?

SpyreX hates it when the scum don't have safeclaims = massclaim a bad idea.

I didn't see any role PMs in Spy's last game. Were the scum given safe-claims?

[Incognito]

More stuff that's bothering me.

Kmd4390 (0):
Zazier (0):
Plum (0):
Llamafluff (1):

VP Baltar

Porkens (0):
camn (0):
Mykonian (1): camn
charter (0):
Incognito (0):
Zilla (1): Charter
VP Baltar (6): Mykonian, Llamafluff, Zilla, Incognito, Kmd4390, Porkens

(Not voting --

Plum

,

ZazieR

)

Have a look at this final vote count. We've got two people (aside from VP himself) off the VP wagon who ended up flipping town.

LlamaFluff - claims Hedge Wizard
Zilla - claims one-shot Doc
Kmd - soft-claims something
Porkens - claims day vig

This leaves me and mykonian as the only people who haven't claimed who were also on the wagon. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that this VP wagon was completely town-pushed, I know that I'm town, and I find at least two of the four claimants to be rather town-ish (Zilla and Porkens). I think there's gotta be at least 1 scum in {LF, myk, Kmd} because of this.

Does anyone else find it strange that LF almost seems to be "clearing" mykonian as town when LF hasn't even claimed some kind of investigative role? Why would this so-called inventor be so sold on mykonian being town based off of a "gut read", and why would he not be looking at the wagon and other info from D1 to see if his myko-read still might hold true?

[mykonian]

arg, this post should be after massclaim... I'll save it.

Llama, I have reason to believe you have to use your power at night, am I right?

in case of massclaim, is there some way of claiming we prefer?

[Incognito]

Actually, I've changed my mind on mass claim. I don't think it's necessary. All I really want is the following:

- Porkens should full claim now.
- Kmd should full claim now.
- After these full claims come forward, we should decide whether or not our mod might have given people role names outside of Normal naming conventions.

[Porkens]

NOBODY MASSCLAIM; THAT'S NOT WHAT WE ARE DOING.


My role is called 'Bounty Hunter.' --
I found a talking crossbow in the woods, I want to become a legend. I win with the town.

Fancy name for "Compulsive Dayvig"

[mykonian]

/Serial killer

[Porkens]

[/sigh] Why wouldn't a serial killer support a massclaim?

vote mykonian

[Kmd4390]

Depending on the way the softclaim is done, I usually look at soft-claiming as a slight town-tell. In Kmd's case though, I really don't know what to think about it. I guess he might have been really excited about it and eager to get it out in the open, which is mildly town-ish, but for the most part, I just don't know.

Excited and eager? Not exactly. I was claiming the RB, not my role.

1)

Kmd has soft-claimed a power role and claimed that he was roleblocked. I really can't think of any reason why an RB-scum would want to roleblock Kmd (unless they picked up on some kind of breadcrumb he dropped or they have a meta on him that helped them realize he was power, etc.) -- I'd think that a scum RB might want to target someone like Zilla instead if she's telling the truth about her role. If we massclaim and nobody claims to be a roleblocker of some kind, then we can deduce that either there really is a scum RB who claimed something else and is purposely hiding his or her role or that Kmd is lying about his claim.

I doubt anyone picked anything up on me. I don't play any differently as a power role than I do as VT.

You think I'm lying about being blocked and recieving flavor for it? That's something that pretty much never happens on MS. Anyone else who is blocked will be able to verify that you recieve flavor for it. If anyone at all gets roleblocked and doesn't recieve flavor, that would be it for me. So it would be stupid to lie about it.

This leaves me and mykonian as the only people who haven't claimed who were also on the wagon. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that this VP wagon was completely town-pushed, I know that I'm town, and I find at least two of the four claimants to be rather town-ish (Zilla and Porkens). I think there's gotta be at least 1 scum in {LF, myk, Kmd} because of this.

Good point. One of Llama/Incog/Myko pretty much has to be scum.

Does anyone else find it strange that LF almost seems to be "clearing" mykonian as town when LF hasn't even claimed some kind of investigative role? Why would this so-called inventor be so sold on mykonian being town based off of a "gut read", and why would he not be looking at the wagon and other info from D1 to see if his myko-read still might hold true?

Actually, that's the one thing Llama has done in this game that fits his town meta. Yes, it's about the

only

thing. But it's there.

- Kmd should full claim now.

Nah. I'll let the scum keep guessing at my role.

[Porkens]

This leaves me and mykonian as the only people who haven't claimed who were also on the wagon. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that this VP wagon was completely town-pushed, I know that I'm town, and I find at least two of the four claimants to be rather town-ish (Zilla and Porkens). I think there's gotta be at least 1 scum in {LF, myk, Kmd} because of this.

I don't like how charter is dismissed based on your process of elimination.

[mykonian]

[/sigh] Why wouldn't a serial killer support a massclaim?

vote mykonian

?

why would a dayvig shoot twice on little evidence, do little next to it, and look simple desinterested in the game? (plus actually admitting to be looking for a fast lynch)

and setupwise, why would a mod put two confirmable town roles in one game? Why look only at Llama, while your play hasn't been stunningly protown either? Couldn't you be a lucky SK, that accidentaly shot scum the first time?

[mykonian]

This leaves me and mykonian as the only people who haven't claimed who were also on the wagon. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that this VP wagon was completely town-pushed, I know that I'm town, and I find at least two of the four claimants to be rather town-ish (Zilla and Porkens). I think there's gotta be at least 1 scum in {LF, myk, Kmd} because of this.

I don't like how charter is dismissed based on your process of elimination.

that

plus that it is pretty useless to think this way, your chances of finding scum haven't improved, and you are more likely to miss things because you dismiss some players.

[Incognito]

Kmd, can you at least claim who you targeted with your role last night? If you're not going to claim, I think you should at least provide that information.

Porkens, an answer to this please:

SpyreX hates it when the scum don't have safeclaims = massclaim a bad idea.

I didn't see any role PMs in Spy's last game. Were the scum given safe-claims?

Also how is charter dismissed from my POE? I said

at least one

of the scums is likely within that group, which is quite useful information because it narrows things down when I focus on my reread. Charter could be an off-wagon scum as can camn, who I also didn't list in my POE, but I haven't decided if I believe either of these two to be likely yet. Why does camn's name not concern you though?

[Incognito]

This leaves me and mykonian as the only people who haven't claimed who were also on the wagon. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that this VP wagon was completely town-pushed, I know that I'm town, and I find at least two of the four claimants to be rather town-ish (Zilla and Porkens). I think there's gotta be at least 1 scum in {LF, myk, Kmd} because of this.

I don't like how charter is dismissed based on your process of elimination.

that

plus that it is pretty useless to think this way, your chances of finding scum haven't improved, and you are more likely to miss things because you dismiss some players.

Really?

We had a day-ending wagon on town. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that at least one of the people on that wagon is scum and this analysis allows for more focused rereads instead of taking the thread in as one huge jumble. You seem terrified.

[Porkens]

Mykonian; I shot early because I thought I was cooler than I was.

As you've pointed out; I'm not confirmed, so how is my role confirmable?

But my point here is; if I were the serial killer, why wouldn't I go for the massclaim? It would have been easy to say "heck sure lets do it, sounds pro-town." And why, AFTER rejecting the idea of a massclaim, would I fullclaim (as an SK)? Your hypothesis doesn't make sense to me.

Incog; no, yeah, I see what you are saying. I just don't want us to try to find

all

our scum in that group of three. charter was on my mind at the moment, but I could say the same thing about camn, yes. please consider my statement ammended.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, can you at least claim who you targeted with your role last night? If you're not going to claim, I think you should at least provide that information.

Why? It gives hints at my role. For example, if I targeted someone protown, my role is protective or something else that helps the person I target. If I went after obvscum, my role is harmful to those who I target. If I went after someone random, I'm investigative or something weird. Why do you want to know my role so badly?

[Porkens]

Kmd, can you at least claim who you targeted with your role last night? If you're not going to claim, I think you should at least provide that information.

Porkens, an answer to this please:

SpyreX hates it when the scum don't have safeclaims = massclaim a bad idea.

I didn't see any role PMs in Spy's last game. Were the scum given safe-claims?

Also how is charter dismissed from my POE? I said

at least one

of the scums is likely within that group, which is quite useful information because it narrows things down when I focus on my reread. Charter could be an off-wagon scum as can camn, who I also didn't list in my POE, but I haven't decided if I believe either of these two to be likely yet. Why does camn's name not concern you though?

I missed this before somehow.

Hmmmmm...as I recall (being scum in that game), no; we didn't have safe claims. You bring up a fair point, actually. I had gotten it into my head, because of my incredible role and the hedge wizard, and the werewolves, that this was, in fact, a theme game. The scum may well not have safeclaims. I still don't think it's really prudent to massclaim today, though. Town; you see 2.5 claims out there now, compare them to your own PMs and see if it all makes sense.

thats all.

[Porkens]

Kmd, can you at least claim who you targeted with your role last night? If you're not going to claim, I think you should at least provide that information.

Why? It gives hints at my role. For example, if I targeted someone protown, my role is protective or something else that helps the person I target. If I went after obvscum, my role is harmful to those who I target. If I went after someone random, I'm investigative or something weird. Why do you want to know my role so badly?

heh, unless you're scum. Then if you went for someone protown; you might have been trying to kill them.

I'd be interested in who you targeted, too; but I don't know if it'd be the right thing.


So, who roleblocked KMD?

[Kmd4390]

heh, unless you're scum. Then if you went for someone protown; you might have been trying to kill them.

I'd be interested in who you targeted, too; but I don't know if it'd be the right thing.

So, who roleblocked KMD?

Fair point. From an outside PoV, targeting someone protown could make me scum.

I'll say who I targeted when I fullclaim. I won't fullclaim until I'm near a lynch or we eventually massclaim.

[Incognito]

unvote
vote: Kmd

let's get him close to lynch then.

[Incognito]

Kmd, can you at least claim who you targeted with your role last night? If you're not going to claim, I think you should at least provide that information.

Why? It gives hints at my role. For example, if I targeted someone protown, my role is protective or something else that helps the person I target. If I went after obvscum, my role is harmful to those who I target. If I went after someone random, I'm investigative or something weird. Why do you want to know my role so badly?

Wait so in SA,

any

player with a PR would receive a flavor PM saying they got roleblocked?

[Kmd4390]

Wait so in SA,

any

player with a PR would receive a flavor PM saying they got roleblocked?

I think in almost any game, any power role who is roleblocked gets a flavor PM saying so. As for vanillas, I think it depends on the Mod. For example (I don't think it hurts to reference an ongoing because it's common knowledge anyway), the game I'm in now. A player claimed to be roleblocked Nights 1 and 2 (and got flavor that her drink spilled on Night 1 and she spent all night cleaning. I don't remember N2's flavor), was killed Night 3, and flipped vanilla. So power roles always get RB flavor as far as I know, and 'nillas sometimes.