Newbie 769 - Game Over

[Tenchi]

Vote: kikuchiyo

because he's not really japanese. :-p

[Tenchi]

CJMiller, you do understand that if lynching is our only shot of hitting scum, right? Mathematically:

Voting Randomly = 2/9 chance of hitting scum
No Lynch = 0/9 chance of hitting scum

That doesn't mean that we should vote randomly forever, and this day though... something will change.

[Tenchi]

Voting randomly = 7/9 chance of lynching a non-mobster
No lynch = 0/9 chance of lynching a non-mobster

You also understand the object of the game is to get rid of as many evil people; not preserve as many good people as we can.

[Tenchi]

Vote: kikuchiyo

because he's not really japanese. :-p

He's not really even a

he

.

Vote: Tenchi

for not paying attention to detail. If you want to be of help then you need to pay attention.

>>

[Tenchi]

Vote: Feeres

because no one else has.

Are you scared of placing a second vote on somebody?

[Tenchi]

Vote: Hero764

Do you feel threatened now?

[Tenchi]

Unvote: atticusgresko

Vote: Hero764

because I am with the general opinion that he is a mobster.

This is worse.

So fa we have two people who just wants to "not offend anyone". Really now, we can't get anywhere if you people won't step on other people's toes!

Finger of Suspicion (FOS): CJMiller

Unvote

[Tenchi]

I never said you said it was dangerous. Razz

You said you didn't want to "threaten" anyone. Now you're wanting to do something just to make another player feel better.

Why are you so cautious about not stepping on anybody's toes?

(Too early to say anything with certainty, but one theory is that you're mafia and don't want to draw anybody's votes/attention.)

Well my plan certainly failed then didn't it? Razz I'm really not trying to be cautious, I was just giving a reason for my meaningless vote like everyone else.

My issue is that your vote seemed to be built on bad logic rather than it was meaningless, and the fact that you defended it saying that you "don't want to threaten anyone".

[Tenchi]

My issue is that your vote seemed to be built on bad logic rather than it was meaningless, and the fact that you defended it saying that you "don't want to threaten anyone".

Alright, that was my bad I guess. I shouldn't have tried to defend a meaningless vote. I'm not too experienced at this game(its actually my first game on this site), so its just me taking your initial question a bit too seriously.

(and now watch this post be called overdefensive )

OMG THAT IS SO SCVUMMY !!!!!!11eleven

[Tenchi]

FOS Slaine Hayes

FOS Hero764

Why?

[Tenchi]

Slaine for trying to kill off the new players and Hero for acting suspicious.

What made you think SH was killing off new players?

What did Hero do that you feel was suspicious?

[Tenchi]

I want CJMiller to answer my questions.

[Tenchi]

Oh yeah, and one more thing. This post by Tenchi kinda raised my eyebrows:

OMG THAT IS SO SCVUMMY !!!!!!11eleven

At first he was really pressuring me to get some info and stuff, and then, as if he was just waiting for me to say something so he could end the little 'campaign' of his. It just seemed odd, as I certainly didn't expect him to reply to my post with a simple joke. I dunno what this implies though, just something I found interesting that maybe should be discussed.

I think that is a desperate attempt to paint me in a bad way. Or to start a discussion that will be pointless since it was fueled by an interpretation of humor.

Vote:Hero764

For:

1. What is said above
2. Second vote issue defensiveness.

[Tenchi]

Another thing:

I think that is a

desperate

attempt to paint me in a bad way.

What was so desperate about my post?

OK Then. Let's discuss the 1001 possibilities why I reacted that way to your post. (In other words, pursuing a discussion like that is nonsense. And suspecting me for it is I feel, DESPERATE)

[Tenchi]

First off I don't understand what the second reason means about defensiveness. Is its going back to Hero being defensive? Because if so, why did Tenchi reply with humor if he still had issues with it? And his little "evaluation" of Hero is rather short and leads straight into voting for Hero. He could have at least explained how his humor was supposed to be interpreted.

I let it go because I have no further questions for it. No further questions does not mean though, that it is not considered scummy or questionable. Did he explain why he voted that way and reacted that way? Yes. But do I buy it? Not necessarily.

[Tenchi]

Nope. Because what you did was so subtle, but I can smell the stench from it. It's like planting a seed that you want a Townie to pick up on, to work the case for you. It's also like saying that "I think that is scummy, but I don't really think so, so what do you guys think and maybe we should discuss that pointless lead so that we could waste time and cover the tracks of other scummy things happening."

I'll quote you again for reference:

"At first he was really pressuring me to get some info and stuff, and then, as if he was just waiting for me to say something so he could end the little 'campaign' of his. It just seemed odd, as I certainly didn't expect him to reply to my post with a simple joke. I dunno what this implies though, just something I found interesting that maybe should be discussed."

[Tenchi]

That's simply how you interpreted it. And how exactly would that cover the tracks? I think the people in this thread are smart enough to discuss more than one thing at once.

Fine. Then discuss away.

Also:

cover the tracks of other scummy things happening.

Such as what, exactly?

Dunno, the CJ Case, which is still unanswered BTW.

[Tenchi]

Which is it? Are you FoSing CJ because that's what your random vote target was OR are you FoSing CJ because you suspect him? If it's the second one, then why do you feel the need to vote randomly when you find somebody suspicious?

I had some similar issues with this in my other game, especially that an IC did it. If you vote, and if a reason changes with that vote, you must state it.

[Tenchi]

I want the IC to answer that ^

and this: what's the difference of being noob and noob scum. I had trouble with this last Newbie game I had. And I think I'm having the same trouble right now. Too many newbie mistakes being done, the question is, if it is a tell of anything.

[Tenchi]

I think SH is trying to kill me off because he voted for me because I was trying to make sense of what was going on (this is my first game, after all) and that caused me to change my vote twice.

But that doesn't imply that he wants to kill off "new players".

I think Hero is acting suspicious because when people act like he's acting, they're hiding something.

Kindly rephrase. Too much pronoun use.

[Tenchi]

I think SH is trying to kill me off because he voted for me because I was trying to make sense of what was going on (this is my first game, after all) and that caused me to change my vote twice.

But that doesn't imply that he wants to kill off "new players".

If you are not going to allow CJ an explanation, then why do you ask him for one? You are ignoring CJ's perception here. Not to say that I believe him, necessarily, but your approach to this conflict seems already biased.

please explain why you feel CJ is not justified in feeling threatened when someone votes him.

I'm not questioning him for him feeling threatened.

I'm questioning his reasons for suspecting SH, since he said SH was "trying to kill off the new players".

[Tenchi]

Unvote

[Tenchi]

in the meantime, unvote, vote feeres.

Your explanation would make sense if you had random voted and then later switched to an FoS. But you random voted in the same post in which you expressed suspicion of someone. This doesn't add up. Not sure if it is scummier for you to have voted, but it seems like you are trying to avoid suspicion yourself, yet setting up a future CJ vote. Smells fishy.

You've got to be kidding. There's nothing wrong with Feeres' post at all, I don't see where people are getting that from. And how is putting FoS on someone scummy in the slightest? He generated a random number, it matched CJMiller, and then when he read through the thread he realized he didn't want to place another vote on CJMiller(which he explained) so he didn't. After reading through the thread however, he realized he was still suspicious of CJMiller's behavior(as others are) so put an FoS on him. It's as simple as that.

I think the issue is whether Feeres agrees with the following equation:

Random Vote == FoS (instead of vote during a critical time)

[Tenchi]

You've got to be kidding. There's nothing wrong with Feeres' post at all, I don't see where people are getting that from. And how is putting FoS on someone scummy in the slightest? He generated a random number, it matched CJMiller, and then when he read through the thread he realized he didn't want to place another vote on CJMiller(which he explained) so he didn't. After reading through the thread however, he realized he was still suspicious of CJMiller's behavior(as others are) so put an FoS on him. It's as simple as that.

Why did he bother to generate the random number if he found someone suspicious? I never said placing an FoS on someone is "scummy". That is a bold misrepresentation of why I am voting for Feeres at the moment. Also, please let him answer to this for himself. What reason do you have to defend Feeres?

He is not defending Feeres. He is questioning why you are suspecting Feeres for reasons he find null-tells.

[Tenchi]

Disregard post 93. I find post 92 of kikuchiyo a better explanation.

[Tenchi]

FOS Feeres because what goes around comes around

You're just being ridiculous now. Your explanations suck, you're openly OMGUSing, it's like you're trying to give people a reason to vote for you.

OMGUS = Oh My God U Suck = Means you were voting for a person just because they voted for you.

[Tenchi]

I'm sorry but I've already read that wiki page and it didn't make much sense to me. :/

WIFOM is some sort of dilemma where two explanations seem to be equally probable and they just seem to make you go around in circles.

Example.

1. Tenchi says, "Oh my god, the last NK was done to frame me because I hate Kikuchiyo so much!" (WIFOM statement)
2. Explanation 1: Tenchi is scum. He wants you to think he is being framed, to mislynch.
3. Explanation 2: Tenchi is town. He wants you to think he is being framed, to save himself, a townie, from being lynched.

The best way to check for it is to think of a statement or situation from different angles/explanations.

[Tenchi]

CJMiller: Do you think that Kikuchiyo and Hockeyruler is right/just in suspecting Feeres?

[Tenchi]

I now honestly don't know if I find you more scummy now or him. For one thing this is quite unnecessary to defend someone especialy when they are on L-3. And I never even saw kikuchiyo's vote until after I posted because it took a while to gather all of my quotes. So I wasn't trying to gang up on him.

I was actually wondering why did you vote for me pretty much with the same faulty logic that kikuchiyo used. Nobody didn't even point out that you ganged up on me, this smells like WIFOM to me. I don't need people to guess what I said though, you can just ask me if something needs rephrasing.

What statement did you feel was WIFOM?

1. The ganging up on you? Or
2. The reasoning they used to vote for you?

[Tenchi]

Hockey stating that he was not ganging up on you is not WIFOM. I think the fact that he was bringing up that he wasn't ganging up on somebody, when nobody is accusing him, is more of a tell of defensiveness.

I think this summarizes what happened:

It's relatively weakly related directly, my textual communication isn't the best ones around yes. But let me try to explain: From point A, where he is my random vote target, I go to point B, where he is the person who's posts I'm checking out through the thread, and I end up in point C, where I find him suspicious enough to place a Finger of Suspicion on him.

[Tenchi]

Kikuchiyo: Given that situation, would Feeres be less suspicious if he did something differently? If so, what could have he done/said?

[Tenchi]

kikuchiyo: Yes.

That is effectively OMGUSing.

FoS:CJMiller

Am I suspicious now, more than I was before?

[Tenchi]

Feeres admitted that his FOS on you was not random. He claims that here.

[Tenchi]

I think a day should be only one week instead of 3.

I also think anyone who hasn't voted yet should vote now.

Town must find a balance between rushing and prolonging. Pressure from a deadline usually does not help town make a solid decision. As long as we feel we have issues/questions that we need addressed, then we shall continue this day.

Everyone though, by now, should have their own suspects.

[Tenchi]

I have no issue with the "initial random voting --> checking the thread --> oh my god my random vote is L-2 --> check the thread again --> FoS for now anyway" story. Personally, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt here.

However...

Actually it's a different type of beginning here than I'm used to. Instead of random vote-phase, we'd just do some boring speculation about role setups/chances and possible strategy.

All 12 of Feeres posts on this website are in this game. How was he even aware that he was supposed to be random voting had he not read the thread first, considering that on the other site he plays, random voting is not how they start their games?

I want this addressed.

[Tenchi]

I'm bored.

*short-circuits the Sun*

You know what, I'd still like an answer from the IC to my question. But this is just ridiculous.

Vote: CJMiller

Unvote if you still have questions unanswered.

(I'm just finishing this Feeres issue before I decide.)

[Tenchi]

My 137 has been addressed by 134. Nevermind.

[Tenchi]

Simulpost.

Let's do this.

Vote: CJMiller

[Tenchi]

Shit is that the hammer? What the hell guys?

I think the quick hammer was a mistake on my part. I thought we had all D1 discussions done. Though I do think CJMiller gone is actually a good move for us since I would NEVER give him a free pass on making it to endgame.

[Tenchi]

Though I do think CJMiller gone is actually a good move for us since I would NEVER give him a free pass on making it to endgame.

1. Could you clarify what you mean by the second part of the sentence(starting with since).

2. That's a really scummy thing to say. It is NEVER a good move to kill a townie.

With how he's acting, it's so easy to assume that he is a noob player. Town or scum I was not sure (In your post, point #2, you are assuming I knew he was town). Some people would give him a benefit of the doubt past D1 and just call him some newbie, but with the way he answered my questions, I have some strong doubts that he was town.

Whatever happened D1 or D2, I would have pushed for the lynch of CJMiller. Dealing with him is just full of WIFOM (is he new, or is he just acting?). I'd rather get it out now.

The mistake I made was ending it too soon. I'm quite surprised you are not questioning me for that.

[Tenchi]

You said it like it was a good move even though [b.]everyone already knew he was town[/b]. How would that be a good move at all?

THIS IS A GROSS MISREPRESENTATION.

No one can be sure he was town (especially me), and with the way he was acting, I wouldn't be surprised if some people (like me) thought he could be scum.

=================

I checked 153 and yes you have questioned me on the timing.

[Tenchi]

BTW: That's two posts now misrepping me, telling us that I knew CJMiller was town before he flipped.

[Tenchi]

Though I do think CJMiller gone is actually a good move for us since I would NEVER give him a free pass on making it to endgame.

This was obviously posted after CJ flipped town, so explain that.

You're getting scummier every post.

Two points here:

1. I wrote that in context of your WHAT THE HELL post. I feel I didn't explain myself properly in D1.
2. I am worried that him being a newbie would give him a pass on not answering my questions and blurring all associations he may have, which kills this game if he's scum. Also, on the chance he's town, he's the perfect guy to bring along for scum, I am not going to let that happen.

To summarize, I don't regret lynching him. But I do regret hammering early.

[Tenchi]

1. What? You already did explain yourself in the post I quoted by saying that lynching CJMiller(a townie) was a good move. Responding to my what the hell post was unneeded. And if you were responding to my earlier post why quote my other one? Quit contradicting yourself.

1. You don't dictate what is unneeded or not.
2. I quoted the right text (see post 151).

2. So you're saying you would rather lynch a newbie than lynch scum?

Shit's just not adding up.

Vote: Tenchi

Now this is worse. I have never said I'd rather lynch a newbie rather than lynch scum. I said I'd rather lynch a suspicious person rather than giving them a free pass because they are new.

Your statements are a stretch. And lying over and over again does not make it true.

Vote: Hero764

[Tenchi]

I need to chill.

Unvote

But I have my eye on you.

[Tenchi]

1. What? You already did explain yourself in the post I quoted by saying that lynching CJMiller(a townie) was a good move. Responding to my what the hell post was unneeded. And if you were responding to my earlier post why quote my other one? Quit contradicting yourself.

1. You don't dictate what is unneeded or not.
2. I quoted the right text (see post 151).

1. I already explained why it was unneeded, so if you think it wasn't you should argue with what I said rather just say "lol can't do that!"
2. Again - why the hell are you doing this? We weren't discussing post 151 AT ALL, and you knew that full well.

2. So you're saying you would rather lynch a newbie than lynch scum?

Shit's just not adding up.

Vote: Tenchi

Now this is worse. I have never said I'd rather lynch a newbie rather than lynch scum.

I said I'd rather lynch a suspicious person rather than giving them a free pass because they are new.

Your statements are a stretch. And lying over and over again does not make it true.

Vote: Hero764

Read bold: You're still saying you'd lynch someone over scum.

I'm about 90% sure you're scum now.
[/quote]

REPEATING IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE.

DO YOU THINK I KNEW CJMILLER WOULD TURN UP TOWNIE?

. I know that timing was wrong but I certainly didn't want to let my number one suspect just pass by.

I think here is you want me to somehow say that I was 100% sure that he's scum. He's was not. And I am not falling for it.

Vote: Hero

[Tenchi]

OK look. In case I get hit over by a bus or something (or if I go D2, which I expect), please review my conversation here with Hero and see what is he trying to put into my mouth.

[Tenchi]

I've been thinking about this situation the whole time and I think that

if you are a townie, and you REALLY doubt I'm a townie because of that vote, then you should lynch me

and not give me a pass for lylo.

I will read more tomorrow. Please don't do the stupidity I did with CJMiller.

[Tenchi]

FoS: kikuchiyo

For putting a vote on Tenchi when really only an FoS was necessary at the time of the post.

Huh? Can you tell me the criteria for what merits a vote versus an FoS? I thought her vote was reasonable.

[Tenchi]

1) You've played other games on this site, you should know very well that once someone gets to L-1 there's usually a discussion as for what to do about it. You barely gave anyone a chance to respond.
2) Again, IT IS NEVER A GOOD MOVE TO LYNCH A TOWNIE. Unless of course, you're scum, which you probably are.

1. This is exactly why I call it a mistake. And the same reason why I expect my lynch. However, I think I have given CJMiller a LOT OF CHANCES to explain his stance properly. I was actually one of the few people who were asking him questions to help him elaborate. The big mistake there was I forgot/misread that other discussions (especially the Feeres one) was not yet done.

2. Repeating it over and over again won't make it true. I'm not rejoicing about lynching CJMiller FAST.

[Tenchi]

Hero, you seemed rather focused on getting Tenchi at this point with such a temerity (correct me if I used that word in wrong context). You keep on saying that Tenchi voted for CJMiller with prior knowledge that he was in fact a townie. It seems that Tenchi hammered CJ because he could have just been acting

and would have gotten away answering questions like that (as scum) or would get himself lynched endgame(as town)

. Yet you say that Tenchi knew he was town, and that Tenchi would rather kill a newbie than scum. Though Tenchi only said that he wouldn't let CJ keep on going to the endgame since he was a newb

who wouldn't answer questions properly and explain his votes with proper logic

.

Fixed

[Tenchi]

...

BUT THEN WHY WOULD YOU QUOTE MY DAY 2 POST? Obvious contradiction.

...

Can you link me to this?

[Tenchi]

I'm beginning to wonder if you (being Hero) are a cop, and you investigated Tenchi and got negative. But the odds of there being a cop and you being it are slim, and I think at this point it's more of a rivalry between you and Tenchi.

Stop fishing. KTHXBYE.

(Cop/Doctor tells should be kept personally, until to be used as proof/counterproof when somebody claims.)

[Tenchi]

I can't find one of my posts :\

Toledo/Kikuchiyo/Hero: If I'm scum, who's my buddy?

[Tenchi]

You can't just pass things off as a mistake. I'm inclined to believe you're scum because of all of this and all you do is "whoops, sorry."

For that same reason I am expecting my lynch. Just not that soon though.

[Tenchi]

You can't just pass things off as a mistake. I'm inclined to believe you're scum because of all of this and all you do is "whoops, sorry."

For that same reason I am expecting my lynch. Just not that soon though.

Not that soon? What the hell? You don't expect to be lynched this round, but next round? Am I the only one who doesn't understand this?

Oh god, you'd really jump on anything won't you. :\

See post 182.

[Tenchi]

Tenchi feels bit like he's trying to lead us in to lynches with some of his posts, implying this and implying that.

Give 1-2 examples. And make sure to put it into negative light since you are implying that this is one of the reasons why you are voting for me.

[Tenchi]

Because that is what will happen when I get lynched.

As for alternative suspects to NOT let that happen, I'm still thinking who.

[Tenchi]

EBWOP:

Because that is what will happen when I get lynched. (Which is very likely)

As for alternative suspects to NOT let that happen, I'm still thinking who. (Hence the request to have it "not too soon". )

[Tenchi]

Give 1-2 examples. And make sure to put it into negative light since you are implying that this is one of the reasons why you are voting for me.

Hero764, me. Now answer me this, why do you think I'm voting for you?

I want you to quote me.

Also, I was actually defending you at D1. Your lack of attention in this game is noted.

FoS: Feeres

I think you are voting for me for hammering CJMiller.

Now, I want you to state quotes where I try to "imply this and that and lead you into bad lynches."

[Tenchi]

I want you to quote me.

Also, I was actually defending you at D1. Your lack of attention in this game is noted.

FoS: Feeres

I think you are voting for me for hammering CJMiller.

Now, I want you to state quotes where I try to "imply this and that and lead you into bad lynches."

I think I actually have mistakenly attributed someone else's posts to you when going through the game player-by-player, sorry about that. Effectively, I retake back the argument about pursuing me, but I will review the case with you and Hero later, as I will be more attentive at some other time. (posts with you and Hero take a long time to read and it's 5 AM and I've lost my notes on the game)

But similarly, I want you to quote a post of mine where I vote for you.

I mistakenly assumed that you were going/are voting for me.

See here:

Hero764, me. Now answer me this, why do you think I'm voting for you?

[Tenchi]

Yet Tenchi, saying stuff like

Because that is what will happen when I get lynched. (Which is very likely)

that seems to be buying our sympathy, and kind of a last ditch attempt to stop you from getting lynched.

Yet Tenchi, saying stuff like

Because that is what will happen when I get lynched. (Which is very likely)

that seems to be buying our sympathy, and kind of a last ditch attempt to stop you from getting lynched.

Clarify this. Who is stopping who's lynch?

Could you possibly a more obvious scumbuddy? I'm not going to explain myself again, read post 189. Basically, his counterarguments have sucked, and he seems to have purposely unattentive to our discussion.

Unattentive to what discussion?

[Tenchi]

Actually, I have a question regarding night talk. Is there night talk during night 0, the confirmation stage?

If you have a question for the mod, it is better to put in bold.

Mod: See above.

[Tenchi]

Unattentive to what discussion?

The irony is astounding.

The one we had at the start of day 2, silly.

How am I unattentive to that? Can you site me an instance of being unattentive, maybe two?

[Tenchi]

Post 192 links to a similar question, because I don't know what you are saying.

And your answer to that does not show that I misquoted anything. I read it and feel that I have quoted the right stuff properly. Post 195, you provided me an example where I misquoted something. Nothing was misquoted there.

Also, I was responding to a D1 post on Post 151. Explanation here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 33#1614533

I properly quoted that one.

Don't even reply since we're going to go in circles. Which is just mucking up this thread.

And stop making up stuff

Other townies: Please cross check the links above and see how Hero is getting desperate.

[Tenchi]

Post 192 links to a similar question, because I don't know what you are saying.

And your answer to that does not show that I misquoted anything. I read it and feel that I have quoted the right stuff properly. Post 195, you provided me an example where I misquoted something. Nothing was misquoted there.

Uhm, if you quoted the right stuff, then why did you write that post "in the context of my day 1 post?"

Because that was the context of it. You removed the quote I referenced when you quoted it again.

Read this again.
[/quote]

Also, I was responding to a D1 post on Post 151. Explanation here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 33#1614533

I know...I never said otherwise.[/quote]

Nope. You have been ignoring this part of our conversation and accusing me of misquoting stuff or reacting to unnecessary things. I need you to read those things because you have taken them out of context.

ATTN TOWNIES: I think it should be pretty obvious by now that at least one of these two is scum. I really want your thoughts on this.

I have some problems with this.

1. I don't think Hockey is likely scum. Well I think he's 40% scum, maybe less.
2. You are setting both of us for a back to back lynch. When/Even if I flip town, I feel you'd set him up for the next lynch, which will cost us the game.
3. In the situation of the quicklynch, I don't think Hockey is scum. He couldn't have expected me to hammer. (If you have a case against him that accuses him of quicklynching CJMiller, then I say you shouldn't do that.)

Please do not set Hockey for a back to back lynch with the CJMiller thing as base on his case.

[Tenchi]

Regarding the fishing, I wasn't asking the cop to come forward and announce him/herself. I was, however, trying to show that Hero could best be justified in his assault on Tenchi if he knew, without a doubt, that Tenchi was scum, which could only happen if he was a cop.

You are fishing for reactions.

If you are scum you are 100% sure I am not working with you. Therefore, all that achieves is some possibility that Hero would slip in case he answers the question "wrong" and he is the cop. Also, you are implying there that the only way that Hero's aggression on me would be justified is if he was the cop. You are essentially asking him to claim to validate his witchhunt.

If you are town, your note achieves nothing for us.

[Tenchi]

I agree that both players are suspect, but you haven't addressed my last post. Why are we focusing on these two and not Toledo? I believe Toledo posted what looked like a role fishing post earlier, and was on the wagon yesterday at L-2, which according to your logic, should be just as suspicious as an L-1 vote, no?

By my logic? Uh, here let me explain:

When you put someone at L-1, you are acknowledging that anyone can hammer them, and you can't unvote after that. In essence, you are saying it is ok for them to be lynched. When you put someone at L-2(or 3,4, etc.) all you are saying is that you find the person scummy. Sure, there could be 2 extra votes piled on(as is what happened) before you can unvote, but in general putting someone at L-2 allows you to unvote if you don't want them lynched yet. When you put someone at L-1 without wanting them lynched soon you are being a bad player.

Nono. It was how I interpreted it and look where it got us. It is totally wrong. Also, if that was the case, the person who placed him at L-3 should be at fault (which goes into a very bad succession).

(When I lost my head) I thought that it was OK to lynch CJMIller because Hockey validates the lynch by putting him at L-1. So I hammer, and now get in trouble. It was MY mistake, not his.

I forgot who said this recently (I forgot),

but an L-1 actually denotes a more careful investigation of the person

, not a validation to hammer. An L-1 pushes pressure onto the player which elicits reactions from both him and his possible scum partner.

[Tenchi]

Also, I want to pose a question to Tenchi. On day 1 you were much more active than now. Why has your activity dropped so much? I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm just wondering(you have to admit it is odd that you would lose activity once suspicion is on you, not saying you wouldn't have a legitimate reason though).

TBH I feel shitty for costing the Townies a lynch (actually two now). Other than that, I have been busy so I'm dividing my attention to several games so I don't get overwhelmingly annoyed/stressed. Annoyance+Stress = very horrible answers.

[Tenchi]

That way, in case the cop dies tonight(if we have one) then we can look back and find their investigation results.

Investigation results for hyper-claim: Hero764 is innocent.

I suggest we don't lynch until everyone has had the oppurtunity to post and our replacement has had time to catch up and post.

This is a good idea. I think we have nothing to lose.

"Feeres is innocent."

[Tenchi]

Post 192 links to a similar question, because I don't know what you are saying.

And your answer to that does not show that I misquoted anything. I read it and feel that I have quoted the right stuff properly. Post 195, you provided me an example where I misquoted something. Nothing was misquoted there.

Uhm, if you quoted the right stuff, then why did you write that post "in the context of my day 1 post?"

Because that was the context of it. You removed the quote I referenced when you quoted it again.

Uhm, no. Read my post again. I made it painstakingly clear that I was directly talking about your D2 post, IN WHICH YOU CLAIMED THAT LYNCHING CJMILLER WAS A GOOD MOVE. Seriously, this isn't that hard to understand.

Uhm, no. Read my post again. I made it painstakingly clear that I was directly talking about your D1 post, in which I mentioned that lynching CJMiller was a good move. Seriously, this isn't that hard to understand.

ATTN TOWNIES: I think it should be pretty obvious by now that at least one of these two is scum. I really want your thoughts on this.

I have some problems with this.

1. I don't think Hockey is likely scum. Well I think he's 40% scum, maybe less.
2. You are setting both of us for a back to back lynch. When/Even if I flip town, I feel you'd set him up for the next lynch, which will cost us the game.
3. In the situation of the quicklynch, I don't think Hockey is scum. He couldn't have expected me to hammer. (If you have a case against him that accuses him of quicklynching CJMiller, then I say you shouldn't do that.)

Please do not set Hockey for a back to back lynch with the CJMiller thing as base on his case.

1. Of course you don't.
2. You seem so certain that he's not scum. The only way you could know that for certain is if you were scum yourself. Oops.
3. This isn't what my case is about.

You are misrepresenting me again. How would I know that Hockey is not town? I said I was less than 40% sure he was scum. How is that "certain"?

(When I lost my head) I thought that it was OK to lynch CJMIller because Hockey validates the lynch by putting him at L-1. So I hammer, and now get in trouble. It was MY mistake, not his.

Hockey did say he wanted CJMiller lynched. But his opinion isn't the only one you should follow.

That is why I call the whole thing a mistake.

I forgot who said this recently (I forgot), but an L-1 actually denotes a more careful investigation of the person, not a validation to hammer. An L-1 pushes pressure onto the player which elicits reactions from both him and his possible scum partner.

Yeah but I'm pretty sure Hockey never stated he wanted to pressure CJMiller(which he would've brought by this point in day 2, don't you agree?), and instead he wanted him just plain gone.

Again, I can't blame him for acting like that if he was a Townie. CJMiller WAS annoying. Again, I think I lost my cool and lynched him too quickly. It was my mistake, not his.

[Tenchi]

kik: That's a pretty stupid idea imo. Everyone else is going to look like a liar, and I feel that will impair the town's ability to scum hunt.

Why? The results are meaningless unless someone actually flips cop. The other alternatives are to possibly lose any and all investigations, or for our cop to claim in thread before night 2 begins. Personally, I don't see how either of those options benefit town. The results should be entirely ignored until cop claims or flips. We are not even guaranteed to have a cop, so please expand on your reasoning if you persist in believing this to be stupid.

WAIT WAIT

STOOPID IDEA ALERT

I made a mistake here.

If we happen to hit scum on our "fake investigations" scum would be able to know who is NOT the cop because the cop would have claimed by now (to save me of course *winkwink*). This would actually narrow down the choices for hitting Cop in their coming nightkill.

E.g. If we all "investigate" Hero "innocent", and Hero is scum. And Cop-Feeres was the only person not to invesigate Hero, then Hero would know to kill Feeres.

If we hit a Townie too much, it will also put at risk that specific Townie as candidate for being killed at night.

In other words, I feel we are giving scum additional information here in picking the best person to kill.

[Tenchi]

For the record:

kik: That's a pretty stupid idea imo. Everyone else is going to look like a liar, and I feel that will impair the town's ability to scum hunt.

THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

Smells like scum not thinking and just want to shoot down possibly good ideas.

[Tenchi]

I'm so tired of this exchange. I tried my best at convincing you and I will take questions from other people.

Anyway, I still encourage everyone else to read that exchange later and see what's wrong.

[Tenchi]

Also, if someone "claims" a scum to be innocent, then the Mafia can automatically rule them out to not being a cop. I suggest that we stop this idea.

The best point you've made all game

Yeah, give him credit for what I have said.

[Tenchi]

I'll be here. Gimme a moment. I'll be responding.

[Tenchi]

Ok. Better go out with a bang then. I'll try to do a similar PBPA of the whole game, ignoring Hero's posts. I still feel he is scum, but I will try that approach.

[Tenchi]

KIKUCHIYO

0 - Votes for me for not paying attention to her gender
1 - Feeres confrontation ensues. K starts questioning on FoS and Random voting thing.
2 - More questions for Feeres case
3 - Thinks SHTown is is odd and implies that L-2 should be considered as dangerous. Finds early CJMIller wagon suspicious.
4 - Chainsaws me in my line of questioning with CJMiller. Accusing me of having a biased approach to the CJMiller conflict. Votes Feeres.
5 - Repeats part of the Feeres case. Notes Hero is misrepping and defending Feeres.
6 - More clarifications to the Feeres case. (Reviewing it, I still would give Feeres the benefit of the doubt on the whole thing.)
7 - More Feeres interrogation.
8 - I note something wrong here. I think its just a misrep/misunderstanding of the events. I feel that Feeres rolled first, then checked the thread, then figured out he shouldnt be doing that, then mentioned the whole series of events I just said in this sentence.
9 - Gives up on the Feeres case (?)

=== DAY 2 ===
10 - FoS: Toledo for clearing Feeres upon lynch of CJMiller. Votes for me
11 - Questions SH/SC for the FoS on her due since SH/SC felt an FoS is necessary. (I had no problem with K's vote. I actually got weirded out with SH/SC there)
12 - Folds to SH/SC. FoSes me instead. Stands firm on making me the Lynch of the Day. Notes Toledo as suspicious for clearing somebody isntead of thinking whodunit.
13 - Notes Hero's fallacy on reasons why we have an L-1. Notes the case on me is clear, and that we should start looking at other people.
14 - Catches Hero implying that "we (me and Hero) might not be scum together". Asks Herowhy are we focusing on me and Hockey and not Toledo? (Noting that Toledo cleared Hero earlier)
15 - Clarifies 13, the L-1 fallacy.
16 - Suggests hyperclaiming (which looks tempting but actually is a double edged sword upon closer examination). Repeats that I should be the Lunch of the Day. Suggests we don't lynch early wait for the replacement.
17 - Explains the hyperclaiming gambit. Fails to note the scum POV of what could the information do for them.
18 - Folds the hyperclaiming argument. Repeats suspicion of Toledo. Thinks that I am scum between Hero vs Tenchi

Enlightening thoughts:

1. Kikuchiyo and Hero CANNOT be scum together.
2. The only negatives I can think for Kikuchiyo is that she chainsawed me early in the game in defense of CJMiller.
3. I think she's protown.
4. She's a bit jumpy on small things, but that could go either way. Start checking if she comes up with BS cases (the first Feeres case I felt was bad).

[Tenchi]

...

So if you are town, your BEST chance of staying alive by FAR is to find someone out of the remaining pool of players (ie, not hero, you or hockey) that we lynch and flip scum. If that happens, we reassess, the game shifts and you save your life and possibly the town's. Even if you are 100% convinced that Hero is scum, you still have a chance of achieving that goal because scumHero must have a partner somewhere. And I think a lot of the doubters, like kiku and maybe hero, would begin to think a lot differently of you if feeres or toledo scumflipped.

I'm on it as we speak. Oh god, can I vote for you? As president?

YES WE CAN!

[Tenchi]

FEERES

0 - Controversial post which was attacked by Kikuchiyo later. Notes both sides on the CJMIller proposal of No Lynch. But sides with "go lynch". Mentions Hero has a passive-aggressive play (very early on).
1 - Mentions he is not used to the random-voting early-game culture in MS.net.
2 - Explains post 0. I'm noting why he didn't FoS Hero as well if he found him also suspicious.
3 - More explanation for him suspecting CJMiller.
4 - Explains Post 0. Asks if there's a recommended way for random voting.
5 - Accuses of K applying spin/ misunderstanding to his posts. Explains Post 0 for the nth time. Notes that Hockeyruler pushes him that he should have just voted CJMiller instead of the FoS.
6 - Notes that Hockey piggybacked on Kikuchiyo's case
7 - Explains Post 0 again.
8 - Notes that people were FoSing without explicit reasons and that he can do the same.
9 - WIFOM Talk.
10 - Explains his actions on Post 0.
11 - I think this perfectly explains, from Feeres's point of view what he was thinking when he did the random voting part. It also summarizes most of the discussion on Post 0.
12 - Confronts Hero for not unvoting CJMIller at L-2.

=== DAY 2 ===
13 - Takes middle of the road on Hero vs Tenchi.
14 - Supports's SH/SC's case that K shouldn't have voted for me early on D2. Explains. Questions Hero again for not unvoting CJMiller at L-2.
15 - Speculates on why Artem was killed. Shows his scumlist. Notes K is aggressive. Hero has a "town vibe" and Hockey and SH/SC as under the radar and pro-town. Notes tha I "lead us in to lynches with some of his posts, implying this and implying that". Toledo "is looking scummish as well for me, he's mostly been just going with the flow but not really done that much".
16 - Explains supicions of Toledo. I'm noting more word-feeding from Hero here as Hero asked Feeres why hy thought HockeyRuler was scum. Gave Hero as an example of a lynch I'm leading (he referred to it as past tense though) but mistakenly identified that I ever implied that I lead his lynch.
17 - Takes his suspicions on me back and promises to review. Defends Hockey that Hockey could have not predicted the hammer to come after 30 minutes (which I agree with). Explains Hockey's other stances on why Hockey voted CJMiller (in which I agree with). Asks about scum Nighttalk on D0.
18 - Excuses himself from the game for the weekend

Enlightening thoughts

1. I have yet to see a firm stance from Feeres. He has been the arbiter and middle of the road guy.
2. I still need more activity since most of his posts involve him defending himself and doing his "job" (see #1).
3. Other than that, I think he is also pro-town. Even more pro-town than Kikuchiyo.
4. The ironic thing is I don't get why Hero is on top of his pro-town list.
5. Person to watch if he continues to be the middle of the road guy and lacks the aggression mid-late game. Watch for wishy-washiness also.

[Tenchi]

0 - Random vote for Hero
1 - Agrees and adds to the stance on habing a "Go Lynch"
2 - Fluff argument
3 - Echoes Artem's concerns of Hero being overly cautious with early votes
4 - Passive agressive behaviour noted toward CJMiller. FoSes Hero and CJMiller
5 - Links to the numbers Wiki page
6 - EBWOP
7 - Decides that CJMiller is a "rash and not-so-careful newb scum". See the irony here?
8 - Finds Feeres odd for the random vote issue. Mentions that I seem to be targetting Hero from the beginning of this game (but can't fault me for suspceting Hero at that time). Prods SH and Hockey
9 - V/LA
10 - Notes the Feeres case and notes that CJMiller is constantly OMGUssing


=== DAY 2 ===
11 - Doesn't feel bad for killing CJ. Eliminated Feeres as a suspect outright. This method of elimination tells me the Toledo is a newbie. Also speculates on NK thinking SH/SC or Feeres as scum. Reading this post some more just makes me think that too much thinking has been put into the NK to the point that I think that he is scum trying to point fingers on how the NK can be interpreted.
12 - Clarifies his post 11.
13 - Takes back that Feeres is clear. Tries to compormise with K. Mentions he is forced to believe either Hero or I is scum.
14 - Defends me. Wonders if Hero is a cop (major role-fishing). Says he's not voting becuase he's not convinced anyone is scum, though he has suspects.
15 - Reiterates that Hero and I are on top of his scum list for obvious reasons. Kikuchiyo and SH/SC are "clean". Feeres is "clean" except for the D1 discussion. Neutral on Hockey
16 - Thinks Hockey is my theoretical scum partner but says he can't decide on him specifically at that point. He votes for me since he is justified for voting anyone else
17 - Questions Hero on his statement that one of me or Hockey is scum. Reiterates his question on Post 14.
18 - Echoes my stance on the Hyperclaim issue.


Elightening Thoghts:

1. Feeres CANNOT be scum with HERO
2. If Feeres is Scum, Hockey is his probable partner. See # 16. I haven't done a review on Hockey yet but I am noting the lack of interaction between them.
3. Very "in" when it comes to the "hot" issues. Tries to scumhunt but then becomes wishy washy on providing solid reasons.
4. Right now, I don't even know what he thinks of Feeres. He folded when Kikuchiyo confronted him the clearing on 11.
5. Rolefisher. And he did it twice. See 14 and 17.
6. Big speculation on the NK. (See 11.) I can't put a finger on it but the whole speculative post just doesn't seem right. I suggest somebody to review that for me.
7. Highly Probable Scum.

With that,

UNVOTE

[Tenchi]

EBWOP: Toledo votes for me since he is NOT justified for voting anyone else.

[Tenchi]

TOLEDO

8. Watch if continues to be unnecessarily middle of the road and echoing people's thoughts. Watch for piggybacking also. Watch rolefishing. Cross-check interaction with Hockey.

[Tenchi]

I totally messed up that one... the first was KIKUCHIYO, then I made one for FEERES. Then the untitled one is TOLEDO.

Gotta sleep now.

[Tenchi]

Also, one big thing here: me flipping town does NOT clear anyone, especially Hockey.

[Tenchi]

WATCH FOLKS HOW HERO WORKS HIS MAGIC AGAIN!

Also, one big thing here: me flipping town does NOT clear anyone, especially Hockey.

Big contradiction. Post 229 you state that:

I have some problems with this.

1. I don't think Hockey is likely scum. Well I think he's 40% scum, maybe less.
2. You are setting both of us for a back to back lynch. When/Even if I flip town, I feel you'd set him up for the next lynch, which will cost us the game.
3. In the situation of the quicklynch, I don't think Hockey is scum. He couldn't have expected me to hammer. (If you have a case against him that accuses him of quicklynching CJMiller, then I say you shouldn't do that.)

Please do not set Hockey for a back to back lynch with the CJMiller thing as base on his case.

1. You say that Hockey isn't likely to be scum. Minor thing, but still interesting.
2. Here you state that by voting for you voting for hockey would surely end in a loss. This contradicts what you've just said.
3. And yet now you say that it

especially

doesn't clear Hockey.

[/quote]

1. I think Hockey isn't likely to be scum because you are badgering him and I think YOU are scum.
2. If you are scum, you are doing one hell of a job trying to breadcrumb a back to back town lynch. I hope they catch onto you. Obviously you and Hockey cannot be scum together.
3. I was responding to SC's observation that my TownFlip removes a lot of suspicion against Hockey.

[Tenchi]

I think Hero in 278 makes some excellent points - that is a direct contradiction.

@ Tenchi - Did anything happen between 229 and 278 to change your mind on Hockey?

YES. Toledo is a close second suspect and noticing the lack of interaction with Hockey (or avoidance of giving an opinion on him), brings me blaring sirens over my head. Note here that I am basing my change of opinion of Hockey on Toledo's behavior.

I unvoted for now since I can't find Hero's "partner". But I am still strongly annoyed by how Hero kept on twisting my words and misrepping me the whole game! And for that I still think he's scum.

[Tenchi]

OH SHIT I MESSED UP THE TOLEDO SUMMARY:

For the record:

TOLEDO

1. Toledo CANNOT be scum with HERO
2. If Toledo is Scum, Hockey is his probable partner. See # 16. I haven't done a review on Hockey yet but I am noting the lack of interaction between them.
3. Very "in" when it comes to the "hot" issues. Tries to scumhunt but then becomes wishy washy on providing solid reasons.
4. Right now, I don't even know what he thinks of Feeres. He folded when Kikuchiyo confronted him the clearing on 11.
5. Rolefisher. And he did it twice. See 14 and 17.
6. Big speculation on the NK. (See 11.) I can't put a finger on it but the whole speculative post just doesn't seem right. I suggest somebody to review that for me.
7. Highly Probable Scum.
8. Watch if continues to be unnecessarily middle of the road and echoing people's thoughts. Watch for piggybacking also. Watch rolefishing. Cross-check interaction with Hockey.

[Tenchi]

3. But according to you,

hockey isn't really suspicious at all

. Why are you now suggesting that he should be suspected?

Do you see what's wrong with that statement? I told you he is likely to be Town (around <40% scum). Nowhere did that say that he isn't suspicious at all.

My dillemma here is that I have two "scum factions" which I am trying to get my head around:

1. You and somebody (not Kikuchiyo, not Feeres)
2. Toledo and Hockey (still haven't done that Hockey review though)

3. The contradictory element here is that I feel that you and Hockey cannot be scum together. Also, Toledo has suspected you a fair amount.

If you are not scum then we are so royally screwed. To prevent that, I suggest that you look into my reviews without bias.

[Tenchi]

Do you see what's wrong with that statement? I told you he is likely to be Town (around <40% scum). Nowhere did that say that he isn't suspicious at all.

We've already been through this. Point 2 on post 229, you state that lynching hockey will result in us losing. This means you are he is town, as obviously lynching mafia will not result in us losing.

Yes to me.

You are not seeing this from MY point of view.

I think YOU are scum. Therefore, from the POV you both cannot be buddies. Therefore in Hockey vs Hero, I think YOU are scum. Hence on that argument alone, I think Hockey is probTown. Can't you see something from my POV for once?

[Tenchi]

Why would we be royally screwed? =/ And I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say reviews. The notes you made? If so I did read them without bias, I'm not sure what you want me to see in them though.

Yeah, ignore my notes. Because your name wasn't there and it doesn't directly concern you.

[Tenchi]

Can you please stop badgering me. You obviously have no plans of hearing me out here. Everybody gets the case against me. Can you just give me a moment to lay out my "last words"?

I'm already pretty much dead. I don't know what you are doing to make me much "deader".

[Tenchi]

They just have to review the exchange between us. That's all they have to do.

Yes to me.

You are not seeing this from MY point of view.

I think YOU are scum. Therefore, from the POV you both cannot be buddies. Therefore in Hockey vs Hero, I think YOU are scum. Hence on that argument alone, I think Hockey is probTown. Can't you see something from my POV for once?

So you weren't posting through your POV when you said that the suspicion on hockey should be continued?

It was still my POV. But its a different one. DID YOU READ I HAVE A DILEMMA HERE? I have two scum group suspects.

Yeah, ignore my notes. Because your name wasn't there and it doesn't directly concern you.

What the hell? I read your notes.

[/quote]
You twisting my words is not convincing me of that.

Can you please stop badgering me. You obviously have no plans of hearing me out here. Everybody gets the case against me. Can you just give me a moment to lay out my "last words"?

I'm already pretty much dead. I don't know what you are doing to make me much "deader".

I've given you plenty of chances to explain yourself, and all you do is accuse me of twisting your words, trying to force the town into a back-to-back lynch. You've not even properly addressed my first post on day 2.

And I'm still waiting for any other reasons for me being scum, other than me suspecting you.

You have twisted my words until NOW. Trying to ask me leading questions that would lead into a lose-lose situation for me. Read your questions again and see what they imply and what they try to put into my mouth.

[Tenchi]

I read your first post addressed to me and it really took my post out of context.

See the two posts here:

ORIGINAL: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 99#1613399

BUTCHERED: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 31#1613831

You took it out of context.

[Tenchi]

OK Look, I'll call a truce until I finish my PBPA. I cannot do a decent PBPA with me being annoyed and flared up. Can we just keep it at this for the moment?

You have twisted my words until NOW. Trying to ask me leading questions that would lead into a lose-lose situation for me. Read your questions again and see what they imply and what they try to put into my mouth.

I'll do that.

They just have to review the exchange between us. That's all they have to do.

Yeah but you've been doing everything you can to discredit me as a valid scumhuntser rather than just answering my questions.

Do an unbiased reread of my answers, thinking that I am one very pissed off Townie. Or maybe do a reread of the other players. Anything. Just stop badgering me ok?

[Tenchi]

Here are my quick notes on the argument:

151 - You state lynching a townie was a good move.

154 - I challenge you for saying that.

155 - You start your long pattern of confusion by taking this out of context and act as though I was replying to a day 1 post.

(WRONG: It we ME/TENCHI who was replying to a Day One post. See Post 151, again!)

Can you check that? That may be the source of all this crap.

[Tenchi]

155 was a Feeres post

Redo your PBPA thing again.

[Tenchi]

You state, on day 2, that lynching a townie was a good move. I was simply questioning why you would say such a thing.

For the Nth time, I was replying to a D1 post that I wanted addressed. I felt that I didn't give a firm point of view on what I think and I just hammered. I owed you guys my thought at the very least.

[Tenchi]

(WRONG: It we ME/TENCHI who was replying to a Day One post. See Post 151, again!)

I know, but you were acting as though my post should be in the context of day 1 because of that, when it really shouldn't.

Oh god. I'm not acting that way.

It was MY POST that was in the context of a DAY ONE post. See the difference there?

[Tenchi]

Got it. Now read 307.

[Tenchi]

For the Nth time, I was replying to a D1 post that I wanted addressed. I felt that I didn't give a firm point of view on what I think and I just hammered. I owed you guys my thought at the very least.

What does this have to do with anything?

The fact still remains that you thought CJMiller was a good lynch choice, and you said this after he flipped town.

I can live with that conclusion.

[Tenchi]

Bolding my replies to this one:

Tenchi:
Why did you reason your vote on Hero with an attempt to paint you in a bad way rather than defend against it (post 57)?

I actually had two reasons for voting him (see post 5 again) His initial defensiveness along with the subtlety of opening a particularly useless witchhunt on the fluff I said is what made me vote for him

Do you think your way of responding to Hero will make it easier to deal with him in the future (post 39 and following posts)?

No. That's why I didn't do it again. But I am still annoyed by him.

If yes to previous question, why do you communicate with him like that?

N/A

What in Hero's post made you smell the stench (post 72)?

Read post 72 again. What he did is subtle: try to make a discussion out of a fluff statement. It was a bit like passive aggressive behavior.

Why did you unvote (post 90)?

Excellent question. I was actually watching Kikuchiyo by that time. I was really struck by how she chainsaw-defended CJMiller on post 87. I was kind of rethinking my vote on Hero and thinking on confronting Kikuchiyo had I seen more scummy moves from her. Didn't see much.

Why do you say that everyone should have their suspects by now (post 131)?

It was a supporting argument since CJMiller proposed that D1 should be one week. I mentioned that we should prolong it as much as we can and we should have good discussions flowing since we have our own suspects by that time.

Simulpost (post 141)?

I posted almost at the same time as Hockeyruler

What was your reasoning at post 141 to hammer CJ (post 141)?

See post 151. Also, I have pursued the case against him for entire D1 and he did nothing to convince me he is Town. I gave him the chance to answer and what did he do? Voted with bad reasons. I asked him to explain. He just gave bad explanations.

Do you think that discussion at L-1 will be helpful or not (post 151)?

Hell yeah. I'm stupid for hammering I tell you.

Do you vote quickly without reasoning properly beforehand often (post 167)?

Hero was annoying me at that time, especially how he phrases his questions. But I have to keep an open mind.

Is your vote on Hero because of OMGUS or because of his twisting of your words or combination of this and something else maybe (post 171)?

It was because of him twisting my words. Have you wondered why I haven't pursued my Kikuchiyo case at this point? Kikuchiyo had a solid, firm and clean reason for voting for me. Also she hasn't tried to give me leading questions or put answers into my mouth. Hero on the other hand, has done it a number of times.

If you are a townie, why would you not defend yourself properly but ask for votes on you (post 182)?

I'm not asking for votes on myself. I do expect my lynch this day, since really would you really keep me in the game? If I can like hammer myself without getting a bad reputation in this site I would (that's how bad I feel the entire time), and Hero killing me the whole game with the bad questions... it just doesn't help my whole psyche. However, I'm very willing to discuss other things while I'm still alive. We will definitely have a D3 and I want you guys to win it for me *winkwink*

Why did you ignore the discussion about me and others and yet decided CJ discussion had come to an end(post 190)?

I didn't ignore. I forgot. And I was stupid.

Are you saying you are content if we lynch you because you made a mistake (post 198)?

Yes. Because worst case is that they put me in a room with Kukuchiyo/Hero. Both cannot be scum together, but both would happily vote for me. I think some of you here are better players than I am and I trust the others to make a good decision. I'll just be here to help out once I finish all this defending myself stuff and I chill.

Do you think the only reason people will vote for you is because you hammered CJ (post 208)?

Good question. Majorly yes. I think the other reason is that I haven't been perfectly clear on how Hero is "twisting my words".

Why do you think Hero is ignoring parts of your conversations (post 229)?

Because he is chopping stuff off and getting them out of context. Did you check the links I gave to 229?

What, in your opinion, is wrong with the exchange with Hero (post 243)?

It was going in circles. He keeps on badgering me. I keep on explaining. He doesn't listen.

Why did you unvote Hero (post 271)?

I have secondary suspects

How many games are you playing and how much attention are you giving this game?

OMG. I'm modding one and I'm in four games. Attention wise, I give full attention on certain games on certain days. Guess who's turn is it today?

(OOC: Is there an easy way to view posts made by a certain author in certain topic?)

YES. If you scroll down to the very bottom of the page, look for the part where it says:

"Display posts from previous" ________ by _________ and press GO

[Tenchi]

Check how this was phrased:

Though I do think CJMiller gone is actually a good move for us since I would NEVER give him a free pass on making it to endgame.

...

2. That's a really scummy thing to say. It is NEVER a good move to kill a townie.

OK Let's see what got me going here. You are trying to imply back then that statement that I was happy that I killed a Townie because I am scum.

Of course I'm not! I feel like crap that CJMiller flipped town. I think that it was to get rid of CJMIller because he was very detrimental (didn't answer questions properly and he didn't explain his votes properly) and for that I have no regrets, since at least I didn't have to worry with him getting to the endgame.

[Tenchi]

HOCKEYRULER

0 - Replacing in.
1 - He does an "Analysis". Reading this, he didn't know that Hero was being accused on Page one. Toledo random voted. I voted Hero for being too cautious on palcing a second vote. Calls CJ scummy. Middle of the road on Hero vs Tenchi D1 and calls it "Over all though, its just a bunch of random things. None of which seem particularly scummy."
2 - Calls Feeres scummy fo substituting an FoS for a vote. Votes Feeres.
3 - Explains Feeres vote. Attacks Feeres for not being detailed with his CJMIller vote. The thing is, I am worndering why is he attacking Feeres more on the FoS rather than just attacking him for not providing reasons (which he mentioned). Was he trying to put a connection to the Kikuchiyo-Feeres case?
4 - Calls out Hero for defending Feeres at L-3. (I am actually agreeing with Hero's move here.) Mentions he is confused by Feeres on CJMIller (whether he was Newbie or scum)
5 - More confrontation on Feeres. From the looks of it he is confronting Feeres for his reasons for laying out the FoS, whether it was the Random Generation or a real suspicion) Summarizes with the question: "You think CJMiller is acting "newbish", and also you think hes acting scummy?"
6 - Backs off on Feeres and goes back to checking the CJMiller case. Still suspects Hero and Feeres.
7 - Asks the IC for permission to vote out CJ "simply because he feels CJMiller isn't being helpful?" (Maybe I shouldv'e asked for permission too).
8 - Votes CJMiller.
9 - Addresses my request if he still needs other information
10 - Twilight. Stands by his vote. (Jokingly?) notes that Hero was voting for CJMiller and asked why he didn't unvote.
11 - Explains the CJMiller situation from his POV.
12 - Explains the CJMiller situation from my POV. Answers Hero's question for me.
13 - Again defends me.
14 - Notes that me and CJMIller are going in circles. And that I was buying sympathy.
15 - Reiterates his stance on CJMiller. Notes the accusation of Hero to him as being unattentive.
16 - A totally mangled post. WTH is this???
17 - Told 16 was a mispost.
18 - Reiterates his stance on the CJMiller lynch.


Enlightening Thoughts:

1. Absence of Toledo and Kikuchyo in his posts. Especially Toledo.
2. It is very unlikely that Hockey and Hero are scum together.
3. Hero has focused on his defense lately. I think it is rather time for him to show what he thinks of other people.
4. With that I note he is less aggressive D2. He had CJMiller and Hero and Feeres as suspects D1. Right now he has none (from what I read).
4. He lacks alternative suspects/scumhunting starting D2. He hasn't even made a vote or an FoS.
5. I am totally on the fence with him, just because he defended me. Yet I am surprised why he hasn't pushed back on Hero. From that, I'm assuming he is also on the fence with Tenchi vs Hero.
6. Watch for wishy washiness and lack of putting up a stance. Watch if he starts to piggyback or put up BS cases (see Hockey vs Feeres, I felt Hockey was bordering BSing at the beginning.). Finally, watch association with Toledo.

[Tenchi]

EBWOP:

6. Watch for wishy washiness and lack of putting up a stance. Watch if he starts to piggyback or put up BS cases (see Hockey vs Feeres, I felt Hockey was bordering BSing at the beginning.). Finally, watch association with Toledo.

Watch demeanor towards Hero.

[Tenchi]

SH/SC

SH ERA

0 - Votes CJMiller for being jumpy with voting
1 - Notes that his vote was semi-random and that CJMIller is not in danger of being lynched, and that CJMiller got discussion started.
2 - Says scum would be foolish to hammer CJMiller early on. Leaves vote on CJ.
3 - Leaves vote on CJ for wishywashiness (either scummy or newbie).

=== DAY TWO ===

4 - Notes that both me and Hockey are suspicious. Tangents to a Toledo discussion. Questions Toledo for his speculation on the NK, linking to SH.
5 - FoSes Kikuchiyo for putting a vote on me instead of FoSing (I posted against this already, thought it was BS). Encourages everyone to think things through and not throw votes out of anger.

SC ERA

0 - Says hello
1 - Says he has a 1000 word notebook on the game
2 - PBPA. See for yourself
3 - Conclusions. Tenchi-Hero debate is tunnelvision. Recommends a tangent. Kiku is town. Feeres suspicious for odd defending Toledo, and attacking Hero. Suspects Hockey of lurking and possibly piggybacking, also with bad defense. Toledo as number one suspect: rolefishing, UTR, fueling discussions. Votes Toledo.
4 - Asks people questions. Expounds on why we should tangent on Hero vs Tenchi.

Enlightening Notes:

1. Totally protown with remarks and line of questioning
2. SH and SC is oddly consistent with them suspecting Toledo, despite them replacing each other.
3. Watch if suddenly gets irrational. Or suddenly starts to tunnel and not hear one side out.

[Tenchi]

Summary:

PROTOWN

SH/SC
Feeres
Kikuchiyo
...
...
Hockey
...
Toledo OR Hero

SCUM

---

Hockey: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 75#1639775
SH/SC: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#1639895
Toledo: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 43#1638443
Kikuchiyo: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 91#1638391
Feeres: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 14#1638414

[Tenchi]

Watchlist:

HERO: Check for leading questions, tunneling, BSing
KIKUCHIYO: She's a bit jumpy on small things, but that could go either way. Start checking if she comes up with BS cases (the first Feeres case I felt was bad).
FEERES: Person to watch if he continues to be the middle of the road guy and lacks the aggression mid-late game. Watch for wishy-washiness also.
TOLEDO: Watch if continues to be unnecessarily middle of the road and echoing people's thoughts. Watch for piggybacking also. Watch rolefishing. Cross-check interaction with Hockey.
HOCKEY: Watch for wishy washiness and lack of putting up a stance. Watch if he starts to piggyback or put up BS cases (see Hockey vs Feeres, I felt Hockey was bordering BSing at the beginning.). Finally, watch association with Toledo.
SC/SH: Watch if suddenly gets irrational. Or suddenly starts to tunnel and not hear one side out.

[Tenchi]

Mod: Request for deadline extension, and sorry for the quad posts.

[Tenchi]

Vel-Rahn - I think he expected the deadline to be earlier than it actually is - please correct me if I'm mistaken Tenchi.

We've had a lot to talk about since I replaced in, but I think it's heading towards a decision -

maybe if we're still in limbo a day or two out we could talk about an extension then?

I was asking a deadline extension on the grounds of what I underlined.

I actually want to hear more from Toledo and Hockey right now.

Will read later.

[Tenchi]

I'll be back with the game full force after a 1-2 days.

I just find the current vote count odd. I would actually suspect Toledo to be getting more votes, due to what I found.

Note that I will be hammering Toledo if it came down to that.

I have yet to read the additional posts.

[Tenchi]

Will be posting within 24 hours.

[Tenchi]

I'm back.

I will be reading/having dinner.

I will make a final decision today.

[Tenchi]

I think Serial mentioned that I've only been popping in when my name has been read, and only to defend myself. I think its pretty natural for me to do that (defending myself atleast) and I think its also a lot more pro-town then Tenchi defending himself and simultaneously attacking Hero.

Nope. I think you are less pro-town for being too careful to step on any toes on D2. Similar with Toledo, the best that you have done toward suspecting another person is... I can't even find one in my notes.

And you know what worries me, is that you demonstrated your piggybacking without providing any specifics here:

I also think feeres brings up an excelent point.

For some reason, you are quick to announce Kiku as very townie, when she has failed to address the large movements and just sniped at minor details IMO. No attacks have been made against her and she seems to actively hunt these logical inconsistencies, but I'm not convinced that she wouldn't be scum who just lets minor slips of her scumbuddy to go by if those would happen.

This is very true and I think we should pursue it,

I feel you are fueling a Feeres vs Kiku argument without putting your neck out there.

EDIT: OMG, Kiku beat me at this point, post 334, at the bottom.

I know that its been mentioned multiple times that I could be scum with Toledo. Yet I'm not even sure why toledo is being suspected in the first place? Has he said something in D2 thatI've missed? Because I didn't notice anything in Day one.

The main arguments for Toledo being scum are (1) subtle rolefishing and (2) using rehashed arguments, without putting his neck out. I also notice his subtle speculation on the NK, a noob-scum tell.

And what's worse here is that you are deflecting being connected to Toledo. In that quote, I feel that you wouldn't have tried to question a case against Toledo had you have not have an alleged connection with Toledo.

@Tenchi - Thank you for your analysis, it was obviously a lot of work. Two things I would note about it, and this is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt - I wouldn't write about what scum tells you're looking for in other people. I'm a big believer in honest and open reasoning, as my posts have demonstrated, but there are some things worth keeping to yourself, and the things you're looking out for in other people are one of them.

If I were scum, I could look at your list before every post and know how to make sure I don't raise your suspicions.

It is a psychological game.

In the case of scum reading my tells, I think that them changing how they act, or reacting to what I wrote is actually advantageous for us since it provides a level of discomfort -- obviously, only scum are the only people who would be wary of doing the things that I am watching for. Town, on the other hand, has nothing to lose from me telling them what I am watching for, since they shouldn't do that in the first place.

The other is that your conclusions are a little lacklustre, and possibly swayed by STARTING from the point that Hero is scum. I understand that's your position, and you've been like that for all of D2, but I think a little more open-inded ness might have helped you out a little.

I STILL think Hero is/has a strong chance of being scum. However, I still blame myself for not finding his partner. On the other hand, Hero might not be scum after all, but I still have to read some other posts...

I am pursuing it! I wanted to get other people's reactions to it and see what they think. As you can also see, earlier in the post I had said I was running out of time.

You always seem to jump into the arguement to agree on something but never actually say anything new except with the arguement with feeres. Its just looks like you've been lurking and only replying to agree or to defend yourself. And this whole post that you've said is essentialy just you defending yourself.

Problems here:

1. UNDERLINED PART:

I give the benefit of the doubt here.

Still find the whole thing scummy
2. BOLDED PART: Unjustified deflection. Have you read other posts of Kikuchiyo? She has said little on the Feeres-argument.

I'm going to have to disagree. They'd been arguing for a quite a while now and nobody really has shown interest except each other, and Toledo. I do agree that overall it doesn't sound very safe, but if they got suspicion off of each other then had the lynch, the result of the lynch would determine who was suspected. And since they would probably be controlling it, they would know who is suspected. And now since as it seems, I'm going to be lynched or Toledo, that would mean the other will PROBABLY get the investigate by the cop (if we have one).

Nobody has shown interest because most of you have not given firm stances on it. SC is neutral, thinks both of us a prob-town. Kikuchiyo thinks I'm scum. Hockey (You), Toledo and Feeres are in the middle. Now, if you suspect that Tenchi vs Hero is just bullcrap, then why are you not voting for either of us?

All: Since mine or Hockey's lynch at this point is pretty close to guaranteed, I have a question: if the person who is lynched turns out to be protown, what will become of the other? No need to say what will happen if me or Hockey comes up scum, I can figure that one out.

Why are you asking this? Of course you don't care about the scenario in which YOU are lynched. If you are town, why would you care about how we feel about Hockey on D3 (assuming he's alive)? In which case...

... you only care about the scenario when Hockey is lynched. In which case, if Hockey does flip town, you are wondering what your position will be after that.

Tenchi has basically been trying to set everyone up to look like scum just by describing their play.

No. I described everyone since I am not 100% sure of who is who in this game. On the off chance that you, SC or Feeres is scum, I think I have pinpointed what you would actually do, as scum, when "time is ripe".

[Tenchi]

Mod: Delete double post. Sorry and thanks.

I still think that Toledo is the best lynch for today. The quote from Toledo (see above) just confirmed him to not face the cases against him, and did not even speak of any other additional association or suspicion aside from voting for me.

Vote: Toledo

I will switch my vote to Hockey if necessary, although my theory on him being scum (partly) hinges on the flip of Toledo.

[Tenchi]

I have quit on my other two games and this is the one I am only playing (it is the only one that would take hopefully less time and only D3 and D4 remains.). However, my activity will be low for the next few days as I will be preparing for a job and will be reshuffling my priorities.

[Tenchi]

Wow, the misrepresentations are priceless.

Besides, if I do hammer, I'm pretty sure it'l bite me in the ass tomorow so or tonight depending... no thank you...

^^ Please explain this statement. We are close to deadline and you are not voting at all. If you don't think Toledo is scum, who is your main suspect and why?

VOTE SOMETHING OR DIE

Vote: Hockeyruler

Also, your cautiousness tells me that you fear that Toledo might flip Town.

You also have not provided any suspects in the past two weeks, aside from commenting on your own defenses or the Hero vs Tenchi case.

Just answer the damn question: Who do you think is scum???

I will be thinking some more.

Also, my two cents: I think Kikuchiyo was right in suspecting SC for the suggestions on what Power roles should do. There seems to be a contradiction on SC's stance:

1. If he believes that Power roles should eventually decide for themselves
2. Why would he suggest plans or ideas on what Power roles should do?

On a side note: A "scum SC" is in a VERY comfortable position right now. That is the biggest thing I am very paranoid about.

I will read some more.

[Tenchi]

I will try to get Kikuchiyo's point. I actually strongly agree with her suspicions:

Firstly - I think I made it clear I was letting people know my thoughts on the roles. I am not claiming to be a role or not be a role. Nor was I directing choices, it was letting everyone know my thoughts which I have quite consistently done. Even then, I didn't give explicit instructions, just told people why I thought some choices were better than others.

Let me also quote your suggestions:

A. "I think a doctor should be aiming at one of the most 'town-y' people in the group." (AKA Protect SC. Obviously, at that point, that everyone agrees of your towniness.)
B. "As for a cop, I would suggest that picking the non-lynched out of Hockey vs Toledo (assuming one of them is lynched) is also possibly not the best idea."
C. "I think an investigation on someone like Tenchi might end up being much more valuable."

You just tossed Power roles in a spin of WIFOM! Consider these plausibilities:

1A. What if you are scum? You are actually directing them to protect scumYou. In my opinion, the Doctor should use his gut, not the perceived to be "most towny people in the group".
1B. You are assuming that it is going to be a Hockey-Toledo back to back lynch, in which case, if we follow your suggestion of not lynching the other person, we go into a D3 without knowing if either Hockey or Toledo is innocent. Therefore, we have a chance of tunneling on the remains of Hockey or Toledo, which we all know tunneling is (generally) bad.
2B. You are also forgetting that confirming one scum does not automatically mean that the cop should come out and say "OMG WE CAUGHT SCUM". The advantage of a hidden cop knowing scum is that he can fish for reactions on D3. And see any inconsistencies between the earlier days.
1C. You subtly suggested that I be investigated. A quite sneaky way of deflecting the investigation off you. We did that as scum before. The best way of scum dealing with an impending investigation is to use "reason" to "logically" find a good target, possibly deflecting the investigation away from the real targets.

In other words: Cop/Doc just disregard all this role discussion and use your damn gut.

I can't see much in that post that would benefit me as scum.

See 1A and 1C above.

Thirdly - It can't be a 'scummy post because it has shown myself not to be a power role which has narrowed down scum's nk choice'.

I think the term is not scummy.
The actions you have done are not pro-town.
However, my points 1A and 1C actually give clarity on why your post could be taken as scummy.


Anyway, I do find a Toledo-SC pairing plausible, which puts me back to...

Unvote, Vote: Toledo

[Tenchi]

Only thing which would bug me in the whole power role discussion is that by telling the doc to protect someone who is obviously town, the scum would very well see that they don't want to target anyone who appears obviously town. Then again, the doc would not protect a person who is not obviously town knowing that the scum won't target obviously town people after that has been said. A WIFOM situation perhaps.

SIMULPOST <3 <3 <3

[Tenchi]

Bolding stuff

As for the BS reasons:

1. That trying to help town power roles is scummy. I shouldn't even have to explain this one, it isn't only up to the doctor on who to protect. We work together as a town so the PR's can make a better night choice.

Making a night choice, as a role, is full of WIFOM. Don't even bother helping them/me/us out.

2. That not suggesting yourself to be investigated is scummy because it benefits scum if you are scum. Ugh, I can't even begin to explain how meaningless this is. Him not suggesting to get investigated is a null tell at best. If he's town it benefits town by not wasting an investigation, you realize this right? There was 100% absolutely nothing scummy about saying that.

Again, what SC said is not a null-tell, it is also not scummy.
It was not pro-town. It slightly undermined town, but did not help scum directly.

3. That a post can be scummy without actually doing anything for scum. This just doesn't make sense.

Very debatable. But not enough to undermine Kikuchiyo's points.

4. That him dragging on the argument is distracting the town and there's no reason for town to act like that. You're the one who keeps dragging it on. He defended himself, and you just respond defending your bs reasoning.
Kikuchiyo and SC did not "drag it on" or "distracted town".

Discussions like these are actually healthy, well except for the part where SC gave "advice" on how to use roles. If somebody is slowing down this scumhunt, it will be Toledo and Hockey. They have given us nothing.

Also, you seem to have a problem personally with serial(calling him senseless, calling him a baby, accusing him of trying to dictate votes, accusing him of acting like he's above suspicion, etc.)

Ad hominem. If you don't like Kikuchiyo on using those phrases, then don't accuse her of having a personal problem with SC. On another note, "senseless" and "trying to dictate votes" are actually valid suspicions, as long as they are supported.

Is anybody else noticing the sudden duet going on here?

I can't share an opinion with someone?

Serial has so far been the most town player in the game, to go off like this and just start trying to MAKE him scum with all these reasons is just dumb and unneeded. If he does something scummy then yes you have every right to suspect him, but his post was not scummy, not by any means. Could he be scum? Yes. Are there more probable scums? Absolutely.

Again, Kikuchiyo is not campaigning against his/SC's lynch. However, she and some others noticed how his/SC's post is "not sounding right".

[Tenchi]

HOLY COW... DUN DUN DUNHHHHHHHHH...

(I will reply to the other things some other time. I'm too anxious.)

[Tenchi]

Also, Tenchi, there's no contradiction in giving advice to power roles but wanting them to chose for themselves. I gave a rough outline of the area in which I would place my action were I a NC role and why.

Hmm... again, I won't hold it too much against you. our actions have been noted however. On the other hand, I will reiterate that any advice the Power Peeps take should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Tenchi]

Tenchi(and kiku to some extent): Why are you so concerned with power roles using their gut? You REALLY don't think they should take any advice at all? The town needs to work together to win, saying otherwise is pretty scummy.

Advice on how to use roles, at this point, is full of WIFOM. We would go around in circles since we don't even know who is who. And the only information a Power Role has at this point is the fact that he/she is a Townie... nothing else. From that, he/she should deduce on his own what is the best course of action.

Again, the things that concern me in discussing how roles should be used are:

1. Could possibly out the people who have the roles.
2. Could possibly out the people who DONT have the roles, narrowing an NK choice.
3. Discussing it is full of WIFOM.
4. "Logic" is used by scum to sway investigations away from themselves.

[Tenchi]

FoS:HockeyRuler

Start talking.

(I would have voted for him if I hadn't read Kiku's post.)

[Tenchi]

Well unless somebody has an innocent(s) to narrow down the investigation then yes. Otherwise, then no.

On the other hand, I have asked Hockeyruler a few times regarding his suspicions and, as part of a case against him, have mentioned that he is very unwilling to step on any shoes in D2. I also asked him who his suspects were, if it was not him. He never answered.

If there was somebody who was really adamant and tried to push a Hockey lynch, it was SC (and to some extent Hero since he stuck his vote there for a while). You, on the other hand, suspected me in Hero vs Tenchi and SC in Day 2.

Stop hogging credit. Now, I'm REALLY curious on what Hockeyruler is.

[Tenchi]

FIXING:

Well unless somebody has an innocent(s) to narrow down the investigation then yes. Otherwise, then no.

On the other hand, I have asked Hockeyruler a few times regarding his suspicions and, as part of a case against him, have mentioned that he is very unwilling to step on any shoes in D2. I also asked him who his suspects were, if it was not him. He never answered.

If there was somebody who was really adamant and tried to push a Hockey lynch, it was SC (and to some extent Hero since he stuck his vote there for a while). You, on the other hand, suspected me in Hero vs Tenchi and SC in Day 2.

Stop hogging credit. Now, I'm REALLY curious on what Hockeyruler is.

[Tenchi]

The thing is, I won't even try speculating on why SC was killed. Speculating on it is just a whole dump of WIFOM, and won't really clear anyone.

If I am just going to refer in my D1/D2 suspicions, I would still go for Hockey. Regardless of who was NKed, Hockey's actions are still... rather non-existent. I have my guess for who is his partner if he flips but I'll save that for later. I gotta cross check for THAT.

@Kiku: I crossed out some arguments/statements that were a product of me misreading your other post.

[Tenchi]

I have been busy too. But I am primarily also waiting for Hockey's reply. If he is town, his opinions are valuable. I encourage you to start speaking out your suspicions Hockey.

[Tenchi]

I am expecting Hero to reply to Hockey. While you (Hero) are at it, kindly restate your top reasons why Hockeyruler is scum.

[Tenchi]

Feeres: Do you still Hockey is scum after the Toldedo flip? Explain.

[Tenchi]

Hm. This game is difficult. I don't feel that I can trust anyone.

That's what I've noticed. Apparently you have had a major tiff/push on all the remaining players.

[Tenchi]

Hm. This game is difficult. I don't feel that I can trust anyone.

That's what I've noticed. Apparently you have had a major tiff/push on all the remaining players.

Is there anyone you don't agree with?

HoS: Tenchi

, yes, that's a

hand

of suspicion.

I have like had arguments with everyone here. Except Feeres.

From your latest argument, you are assuming that Hero and I as partners had this roleplay of bussing each other to death, which is what hyposcumHockey tried to sell to us last round.

However, note that if not SC (a confirmed Townie) had deliberate attempts to stop us and to pursue other leads that I would have been lynched that round. You wanted to vote me, Toledo wanted to vote me, Hockey wanted to vote me (thought me and Hero were both scummy), Hero wanted to kill me.

The point here is that the threat to my lynch was serious and I don't think it was roleplay, especially on Hero's end. It is not roleplay as your Tenchi+Hero fantasy wants it to be.

Now, that actually pings my criteria for my scumdar on you, which is bullshitting.

On another note, I am noting the big absence of interaction between Hockey and Kikuchiyo. Hero/Feeres, can you look at that for me?

[Tenchi]

Replies in bold

Reasons for suspecting hockey are basically:

1. He tried to justify lynching a townie.

I don't know what kind of justification he used by I still stand by that I'd rather have CJMiller lynched now/ not be in lylo.

2. Tenchi hammered only 30 minutes after hockey L-1'd, making it look like a scum quick lynch.

Then why are you not voting for me? I think I am the most probable scum just by that criteria.

3. When questioned about it the next day, he tried to avoid the question by saying CJMiller could've been scum all along. A contradiction.

Well everybody would have been scum all along.

4. This was all followed by general scumminess behavior throughout the rest of D@(as serial pointed out). He was active lurking, not really making any suspicions, arguments weren't very strong.

Very true. Same with my reasons.

5. He hasn't been quicklynched yet.

WIFOM. You could be scum waiting for a fooled townie.

That's the basis of it.

Hero, clarify your arguments 1 and 3. Links to posts would suffice.

[Tenchi]

I can't say it's a major absence, there are parts in D1 and D2 where she didn't interact with him. On the other hand, she picked out Hockey's post where he just quoted a part of a post and said that it's true and we should puruse it, clearly something you'd jump at. I'd be willing to believe that most of the lack of interaction is explainable by simply not being around when issues with Hockey's posts have come up.

This is actually my biggest doubt on Kikuchiyo. She never laid down a vote on Hockey. But rereading it again I can quite understand how Kikuchiyo switched from Hockey to Toledo. The best I can get here is circular logic. If Kikuchiyo is scum, she is one hell of a scum.

I actually have a strong stance on what Kikuchiyo really is...

... but I am waiting for an original analysis on Feeres's part
OR
... Hockey's suspicions on who is scum.

Okay, I am pretty sure we are looking at either Hockey/Tenchi, or Tenchi/Hero. The common denominator here is Tenchi. Due to the vote situation created by Hero it seems to be that either Hero or Hockey are definitely scum, but I don't see either partnered with Feeres, and I know they are not partnered with me. Hockey/Hero doesn't make sense either, as they could most likely push for a Tenchi lynch if that was the case. So, I'm going to

Vote: Tenchi

.

I would rather leave the "Hockey or Hero" issue for the survivors tomorrow.

There won't be a tomorrow after my lynch.

Anyway, I think you are voting for me because I seem to fit into your both Hockey or Hero could be scum fantasy. I strongly suggest you rethink your reasons for voting me.

You couldn't bother to look?

We are all reviewing the game based on what we see, which sometimes leads me to skipping some posts. Any help would be appreciated. :-\ (Thanks for complying.)

From post 133:

Is it okay to vote for CJ simply because I feel he isn't being helpful?

I highly doubt hes mafia.

He seems more... "Extremely newbish" and yet not voting for someone because of this seems like it would make it a very easy way for the mafia to "go about business".

This is a very semantic argument IMO. Could be a scum slip though. Regardless very minor.

Then why are you not voting for me? I think I am the most probable scum just by that criteria.

Because right now hockey has a bigger case stacked against him. Why are you even arguing with me on this?

I asked that question because I don't know if you are voting for him because your reasoning is sound or you are voting for him out of convenience.

Again I have opinions on which is which, but I want to hear from Feeres and Hockey again.

[Tenchi]

I think it is safe to say that Feeres is confirmed town, no?

Not in my book.

Still thinking.

[Tenchi]

I am itching to hammer. This will be the last straw:

1. Feeres your "analysis is overdue". Post it soon.

2. I feel hammering because except for the OMGUS vote Hockey gave, he has no alternate reasons.

Use this time wisely. And use it now, Hockey.

(I have been busy too.)

[Tenchi]

I'm not stupid Kikuchiyo.

If I hammer now, I will be suspected of quickening the day again without giving Feeres a chance to do what he was supposed to do.

If I hammer later, you suspect me of being with Hockey, as if you are 100% sure he is scum.

I will do the responsible thing: give time to Feeres to post his thoughts and give a possible CitizenHockey a chance to defend.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Tenchi]

After rereading some of the posts Serial wrote, it would still seem reasonable to lynch Hockey. I haven't had the time to go through them in good detail, I'm for the weekend very busy with other things. I can only promise that the analysis comes on Monday.

[Tenchi]

Make me proud guys!

(*coughItoldyousocough*)

[Tenchi]

Until the end, you have all got me confused...

Let us see where this took us.

[Tenchi]

Personally here's the deal. Had I been alive, given the scenarios:

Tenchi, Hero, Feeres: Feeres is scum.
Tenchi, Kiku, Hero: I'm Confused.
Tenchi, Kiku, Feeres: Feeres is scum.

I expected Feeres to be dead at N3. If he's alive, then I feel he'd waffled his way around the summary/analysis he was going to do.

Right now, I think Feeres is lying on his last post.

[Tenchi]

Oh yeah, I don't feel bad with Hero suspecting me to death. It did get annoying since I can't put my point across with him. I'm just happy SC got between us to discuss other things. I am still looking forward to play with you again around the site, Hero.

[Tenchi]

Haha.. Well, I'd be interested to work out why he lied in the hammer post, but I guess it's possible.

It is the most fun thing to do as scum, you should try it. :-p

[Tenchi]

That quick hammer Tenchi.. eek! when hockey flipped..

It was a personal gamble. On the chance that he was scum, I would be more or less cleared as a personal stupid lucky newbie.

Sorry for experimenting on this game. :-p It was stupid and I probably won't do it again.

Feeres OMG is the best actor...

[Tenchi]

Roleblocker Lightning Rod FTW! Not that we needed it.

Congratulations guys!