Newbie 769 - Game Over

[Feeres]

I'm in the process of reading through what Serial wrote about Hockey yesterday, specifically as he pointed to some of his posts with reasons why to lynch Hockey over Toledo.

My thoughts on the situation are bit annoyed. Basically the only thing Toledo said to defend himself was "what if I'm town?" Well, now we are in that situation, and with Serial killed I'd be looking at who he thought is scummy. He was quite clearly driving towards lynching Hockey, so the simple idea would be that Hockey is scum. But it's not that easy, given how Serial quite throughly tried to say Hockey is scummy, it would be very obvious for a scum team with no Hockey in it to kill Serial because we'd be instantly looking at him.

The fact that Serial got killed during night isn't in my opinion a clear indicator that Hockey is scum, yet it doesn't exactly clear him. I hope I'll have more ideas on this after reading Serial's posts again and the corresponding Hockey's posts. Even if Hockey is scum, there is still a scum partner with him and it might be easier to look for him than figure out if Hockey can be found scummy enough to justify a lynch at LYLO.

Regarding the debate at the end of D2, I didn't really feel there was anything concrete in it. Just some running around with not much substance or anything, similar to Tenchi's and Hero's debate.

I'm doing a reread on Serial+Hockey-posts and the debate at the end of D2, then I'll post more.

[Tenchi]

The thing is, I won't even try speculating on why SC was killed. Speculating on it is just a whole dump of WIFOM, and won't really clear anyone.

If I am just going to refer in my D1/D2 suspicions, I would still go for Hockey. Regardless of who was NKed, Hockey's actions are still... rather non-existent. I have my guess for who is his partner if he flips but I'll save that for later. I gotta cross check for THAT.

@Kiku: I crossed out some arguments/statements that were a product of me misreading your other post.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

Hockeyruler - 1 (Hero764)

Not Voting - 4 (Hockeyruler, Tenchi, Feeres, kikuchiyo)

3 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Friday, May 29th (Eastern, GMT - 4).

[Hero764]

This is lylo. We need to lynch for scumminess, not curiosity. I found Hockey's "non" responses yesterday quite dubious, however, I am curious to see how long Hero is going to leave his vote out there. Without a scum quicklynch, I am wondering if it will be safe to assume that one of them is scum.

That's a good point. Since hockey hasn't been quicklynched yet, that means he has to be scum(unless you think I'm scum). Either that or the scum pair in this game don't know how to play when in lylo.

I think we are safe with lynching hockey. He's the only one I feel is certainly scum at this point, everyone else would be too risky.

Speculating about serial is pretty pointless. He was killed probably because he was the towniest. No need to tack on other reasons to it.

[Feeres]

Won't be able to post until tomorrow, got busy times, sorry for the wait.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Replacing Hockeyruler for failing to pick up a prod.

[kikuchiyo]

That kind of sucks. I suggest at this point that we all reread. If there is a case on Hero, it should be made now.

[Feeres]

That certainly complicates situations a bit, depending on how his replacer responds. Not a nice position to replace though. I have no time for analysis right now, I'm going to see if I can get some time during evening.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Hockey PMd me last night. He is back in the game since I hadn't found a replacement as of his contacting me.

[Tenchi]

I have been busy too. But I am primarily also waiting for Hockey's reply. If he is town, his opinions are valuable. I encourage you to start speaking out your suspicions Hockey.

[Hockeyruler]

Hey! I'm here! Let me read through all this.

[Hockeyruler]

Well unless somebody has an innocent(s) to narrow down the investigation then yes. Otherwise, then no.

On the other hand, I have asked Hockeyruler a few times regarding his suspicions and, as part of a case against him, have mentioned that he is very unwilling to step on any shoes in D2. I also asked him who his suspects were, if it was not him. He never answered.

If there was somebody who was really adamant and tried to push a Hockey lynch, it was SC (and to some extent Hero since he stuck his vote there for a while). You, on the other hand, suspected me in Hero vs Tenchi and SC in Day 2.

Stop hogging credit. Now, I'm REALLY curious on what Hockeyruler is.

I guess I didn't ever really say my suspicions exactly, I think it was clear that I suspected you and Hero. Everybody else I never really suspected except Kiku, which I guess I've now stopped since she has been posting and helping.

Right now though... I think both Hero and Tenchi seem scummy. Feeres and Kiku have put forth valuable opinions (I think) I think I will have to agree with the late Serial that for both of them (hero teching) to be scummy is too hard. Leading me to speculate on which.

At this point I think its Hero because of how hes pushing yet another lynch when the last one didn't work. If Toledo and me were scum partners and Toledo is now innocent then that kind of ruins the theory. Yes it doesn't prove my innocence but It certainly puts holes in your original arguement.

Also the suggestion that me not being quicklynched suggests scum is also stupid. If you're scum, like I am suggesting, your other partner would not be able to vote till later. It all seems just a little too suspicious for me.

Hero likes the idea of a hockey/toledo pair, toledo is guilty, hero then pushes for hockey. It seems to me that if you were mafia you'd know that we were both innocent thereby making either lynch just fine. And after the first one didn't work all you had to do was put a vote on me, say that I'm still guilty and wait for one other person to vote for me. And argue that because nobody else is voting, I must be scum...

FoS: Hero

[Tenchi]

I am expecting Hero to reply to Hockey. While you (Hero) are at it, kindly restate your top reasons why Hockeyruler is scum.

[Hero764]

At this point I think its Hero because of how hes pushing yet another lynch when the last one didn't work. If Toledo and me were scum partners and Toledo is now innocent then that kind of ruins the theory. Yes it doesn't prove my innocence but It certainly puts holes in your original arguement.

That was never my original argument. I've been saying all along that you and Tenchi were scum together. I never advocated that you and Tenchi were scum together. Nice job trying to put words into my mouth. In short, no this doesn't make you any less innocent, it makes you the most viable target right now because no one else has been as scummy as you and there are only five of us left.

Also the suggestion that me not being quicklynched suggests scum is also stupid. If you're scum, like I am suggesting, your other partner would not be able to vote till later. It all seems just a little too suspicious for me.

But do you actually have legitimate reasons to suspect me? I know I'm not scum, no one else can know this for sure, but I do. So, from what I know, you are almost certainly scum. And I want to ask everyone here: Which is more likely, that I'm scum or that hockey is scum?

Hero likes the idea of a hockey/toledo pair, toledo is guilty, hero then pushes for hockey. It seems to me that if you were mafia you'd know that we were both innocent thereby making either lynch just fine. And after the first one didn't work all you had to do was put a vote on me, say that I'm still guilty and wait for one other person to vote for me. And argue that because nobody else is voting, I must be scum...

I wanted to lynch you yesterday, not Toledo. I never stated I liked the idea of the hockey/toledo pair, it was just a better thing to go on than a no lynch. Toledo being innocent does not clear you at all.

I list the reasons later when I get home Tenchi.

[Tenchi]

Feeres: Do you still Hockey is scum after the Toldedo flip? Explain.

[kikuchiyo]

Hero: you seem to waffle about what is scummy and what is "acceptable" newbie mistakes. i.e. Toledo's rolefishing was "newbie", but when Tenchi and I encouraged town pr's to think for themselves that was scummy. Why did you only seem to give Toledo the benefit of the doubt yesterday? You came quickly to SC's defense as well. Either you are really good at discerning alignments or you defended players you knew to be town. Then you start day 3 (lylo) with a vote. I have read some newbie games, and most times in lylo it is scum dropping early votes.

I wanted to lynch you yesterday, not Toledo. I never stated I liked the idea of the hockey/toledo pair, it was just a better thing to go on than a no lynch. Toledo being innocent does not clear you at all.

Does it clear you?

Right now I am way more inclined to vote Hero or Tenchi. They could be the pair, but Hero seems more likely scum due to these circumstances(hanging vote).

Hm. This game is difficult. I don't feel that I can trust anyone.

[Hero764]

Reasons for suspecting hockey are basically:

1. He tried to justify lynching a townie.
2. Tenchi hammered only 30 minutes after hockey L-1'd, making it look like a scum quick lynch.
3. When questioned about it the next day, he tried to avoid the question by saying CJMiller could've been scum all along. A contradiction.
4. This was all followed by general scumminess behavior throughout the rest of D@(as serial pointed out). He was active lurking, not really making any suspicions, arguments weren't very strong.
5. He hasn't been quicklynched yet.

That's the basis of it.

[quoite]Hero: you seem to waffle about what is scummy and what is "acceptable" newbie mistakes. i.e. Toledo's rolefishing was "newbie", but when Tenchi and I encouraged town pr's to think for themselves that was scummy. Why did you only seem to give Toledo the benefit of the doubt yesterday? You came quickly to SC's defense as well. Either you are really good at discerning alignments or you defended players you knew to be town. Then you start day 3 (lylo) with a vote. I have read some newbie games, and most times in lylo it is scum dropping early votes. [/quote]So you think because other scum players have dropped early votes I automatically play the same and am scum because of it? Talk about flawed logic. Have you forgotten that there could be a legitimate reason for a vote?

As for what is scummy or not: It was the way Toledo presented himself, compared to you guys. And besides, speculating on a possibility(that wasn't a very good role fish on Toledo's part either, no one in their right mind who respond to that with a claim, as it would actually work against them by doing so) and actually encouraging the town to work seperate from one another are two different levels of summiness. And tell me: Why the hell would I, as scum, feel the need to defend a townie? That kind of defeats the purpose of it.

Kiku is being overly paranoid. I think you need to stop trying to suspect every single person(which I think you've done at this point). Use logic. The scummiest players are likely to be scum, overanalyzing everyone else just leads to pointless discussion.

[Tenchi]

Hm. This game is difficult. I don't feel that I can trust anyone.

That's what I've noticed. Apparently you have had a major tiff/push on all the remaining players.

[kikuchiyo]

Hm. This game is difficult. I don't feel that I can trust anyone.

That's what I've noticed. Apparently you have had a major tiff/push on all the remaining players.

Is there anyone you don't agree with?

HoS: Tenchi

, yes, that's a

hand

of suspicion.

[kikuchiyo]

Okay, I am pretty sure we are looking at either Hockey/Tenchi, or Tenchi/Hero. The common denominator here is Tenchi. Due to the vote situation created by Hero it seems to be that either Hero or Hockey are definitely scum, but I don't see either partnered with Feeres, and I know they are not partnered with me. Hockey/Hero doesn't make sense either, as they could most likely push for a Tenchi lynch if that was the case. So, I'm going to

Vote: Tenchi

.

I would rather leave the "Hockey or Hero" issue for the survivors tomorrow.

[Tenchi]

Hm. This game is difficult. I don't feel that I can trust anyone.

That's what I've noticed. Apparently you have had a major tiff/push on all the remaining players.

Is there anyone you don't agree with?

HoS: Tenchi

, yes, that's a

hand

of suspicion.

I have like had arguments with everyone here. Except Feeres.

From your latest argument, you are assuming that Hero and I as partners had this roleplay of bussing each other to death, which is what hyposcumHockey tried to sell to us last round.

However, note that if not SC (a confirmed Townie) had deliberate attempts to stop us and to pursue other leads that I would have been lynched that round. You wanted to vote me, Toledo wanted to vote me, Hockey wanted to vote me (thought me and Hero were both scummy), Hero wanted to kill me.

The point here is that the threat to my lynch was serious and I don't think it was roleplay, especially on Hero's end. It is not roleplay as your Tenchi+Hero fantasy wants it to be.

Now, that actually pings my criteria for my scumdar on you, which is bullshitting.

On another note, I am noting the big absence of interaction between Hockey and Kikuchiyo. Hero/Feeres, can you look at that for me?

[Tenchi]

Replies in bold

Reasons for suspecting hockey are basically:

1. He tried to justify lynching a townie.

I don't know what kind of justification he used by I still stand by that I'd rather have CJMiller lynched now/ not be in lylo.

2. Tenchi hammered only 30 minutes after hockey L-1'd, making it look like a scum quick lynch.

Then why are you not voting for me? I think I am the most probable scum just by that criteria.

3. When questioned about it the next day, he tried to avoid the question by saying CJMiller could've been scum all along. A contradiction.

Well everybody would have been scum all along.

4. This was all followed by general scumminess behavior throughout the rest of D@(as serial pointed out). He was active lurking, not really making any suspicions, arguments weren't very strong.

Very true. Same with my reasons.

5. He hasn't been quicklynched yet.

WIFOM. You could be scum waiting for a fooled townie.

That's the basis of it.

Hero, clarify your arguments 1 and 3. Links to posts would suffice.

[Feeres]

Feeres: Do you still Hockey is scum after the Toldedo flip? Explain.

After Toledo's flip? I don't think his flip to town removes any suspicion off of him. Main reason I'd think Hockey is scum is because of his D2 explanations, and now with him not being quickly voted by two others. Latter thing could be explained by Hero being scum as well. I've gotta reread some parts of the conversation, see if I can figure out who their partners would be.

[quote"Tenchi"]On another note, I am noting the big absence of interaction between Hockey and Kikuchiyo. Hero/Feeres, can you look at that for me?[/quote]

I can't say it's a major absence, there are parts in D1 and D2 where she didn't interact with him. On the other hand, she picked out Hockey's post where he just quoted a part of a post and said that it's true and we should puruse it, clearly something you'd jump at. I'd be willing to believe that most of the lack of interaction is explainable by simply not being around when issues with Hockey's posts have come up.

I'm somewhat busy lately, I'll have to be back on this game a bit later today or tomorrow. One bad vote and the game would come to an end, so I hope that by the time I get back the game isn't over

[Hero764]

On another note, I am noting the big absence of interaction between Hockey and Kikuchiyo. Hero/Feeres, can you look at that for me?

I'd attribute that to the fact that hockey being the most inactive of all of us in this game. Remember when you "noticed" his lack of interaction with Toledo? It led us to a quicklynch.

I don't know what kind of justification he used by I still stand by that I'd rather have CJMiller lynched now/ not be in lylo.

You couldn't bother to look?

From post 133:

Is it okay to vote for CJ simply because I feel he isn't being helpful?

I highly doubt hes mafia.

He seems more... "Extremely newbish" and yet not voting for someone because of this seems like it would make it a very easy way for the mafia to "go about business".

Then why are you not voting for me? I think I am the most probable scum just by that criteria.

Because right now hockey has a bigger case stacked against him. Why are you even arguing with me on this?

Well everybody would have been scum all along.

Doesn't matter. He first stated he was voting CJMiller for being unhelpful, and then he stated he voted for CJMiller because he could've been a scum acting that way to get a free ride.

WIFOM. You could be scum waiting for a fooled townie.

That was

my

reason for suspecting him. I know you guys can't be sure that I'm townie, but I can.

[Tenchi]

I can't say it's a major absence, there are parts in D1 and D2 where she didn't interact with him. On the other hand, she picked out Hockey's post where he just quoted a part of a post and said that it's true and we should puruse it, clearly something you'd jump at. I'd be willing to believe that most of the lack of interaction is explainable by simply not being around when issues with Hockey's posts have come up.

This is actually my biggest doubt on Kikuchiyo. She never laid down a vote on Hockey. But rereading it again I can quite understand how Kikuchiyo switched from Hockey to Toledo. The best I can get here is circular logic. If Kikuchiyo is scum, she is one hell of a scum.

I actually have a strong stance on what Kikuchiyo really is...

... but I am waiting for an original analysis on Feeres's part
OR
... Hockey's suspicions on who is scum.

Okay, I am pretty sure we are looking at either Hockey/Tenchi, or Tenchi/Hero. The common denominator here is Tenchi. Due to the vote situation created by Hero it seems to be that either Hero or Hockey are definitely scum, but I don't see either partnered with Feeres, and I know they are not partnered with me. Hockey/Hero doesn't make sense either, as they could most likely push for a Tenchi lynch if that was the case. So, I'm going to

Vote: Tenchi

.

I would rather leave the "Hockey or Hero" issue for the survivors tomorrow.

There won't be a tomorrow after my lynch.

Anyway, I think you are voting for me because I seem to fit into your both Hockey or Hero could be scum fantasy. I strongly suggest you rethink your reasons for voting me.

You couldn't bother to look?

We are all reviewing the game based on what we see, which sometimes leads me to skipping some posts. Any help would be appreciated. :-\ (Thanks for complying.)

From post 133:

Is it okay to vote for CJ simply because I feel he isn't being helpful?

I highly doubt hes mafia.

He seems more... "Extremely newbish" and yet not voting for someone because of this seems like it would make it a very easy way for the mafia to "go about business".

This is a very semantic argument IMO. Could be a scum slip though. Regardless very minor.

Then why are you not voting for me? I think I am the most probable scum just by that criteria.

Because right now hockey has a bigger case stacked against him. Why are you even arguing with me on this?

I asked that question because I don't know if you are voting for him because your reasoning is sound or you are voting for him out of convenience.

Again I have opinions on which is which, but I want to hear from Feeres and Hockey again.