Newbie 769 - Game Over

[Slaine Hayes]

FoS: kikuchiyo

For putting a vote on Tenchi when really only an FoS was necessary at the time of the post.

I will be reviewing the Tenchi-Hero argument, as I am not sure how I feel about it right now. I'll be sure to post my thoughts when I am done.

However, I would like to encourage everyone not to throw votes around out of pure anger, we may wind up with another lynch that occured far to early.

As a whole, we need to think things through thoroughly, come up with strong arguments, and go from there.

[kikuchiyo]

FoS: kikuchiyo

For putting a vote on Tenchi when really only an FoS was necessary at the time of the post.

I will be reviewing the Tenchi-Hero argument, as I am not sure how I feel about it right now. I'll be sure to post my thoughts when I am done.

However, I would like to encourage everyone not to throw votes around out of pure anger, we may wind up with another lynch that occured far to early.

As a whole, we need to think things through thoroughly, come up with strong arguments, and go from there.

OOC: Sorry. What is the problem with my vote? Tenchi is who I think is most likely scum at this point.

Why should I only FoS?

Is it usual for a player to lay out several FoS's instead of votes?

[Feeres]

I actually think Hero and Tenchi have differing views on the issue, I don't think that either Hero or Tenchi is with the bad boys just because of the current argument. Hero grabbed on to something which Tenchi said and found it to be very suspicious because of his way of thinking, while for Tenchi it seems completely logical to lynch CJ even if he was townie.

Most often than not on D1 we will lynch a townie, it's quite common in games IMO. My personal opinion on lynching CJ was that if we hadn't lynched him yet, we might have had unwanted situations later on. For example if we end up in a LYLO situation, someone who recklessly changes his votes without much proper reasoning behind it is very bad for the town.

I was planning I'd add some kind of "who I think is scummiest"-listing in to this post, but I'm going to postpone it to tomorrow or day after.

[Feeres]

OOC: Sorry. What is the problem with my vote? Tenchi is who I think is most likely scum at this point.

Why should I only FoS?

Is it usual for a player to lay out several FoS's instead of votes?

Dunno if you want a more "experienced" answer to this, but I can try to elaborate a bit.

Votes are good for the town if they are genuine, that is you want to have that person lynched. FoS is more like a short way of expressing that you are thinking that this person is most likely scum at that point. Vote is more like you want to have this person lynched.

You should FoS instead of voting because of the genuity issue. A lot of votehopping will confuse the town of what people are really thinking. FoS isn't the only way, I usually do a list of the players starting from who I think is the scummiest ending to the one who I think is the towniest. So in a way I'm placing a FoS on the first/first few on the list.

I was questioning Hero about his vote on D1 today because he seemed to be bit iffy about actually voting for CJ after he was hammered. I'll review this thing tomorrow, but depends a bit that I might find him scummy judging by that or not, depends on the context and how I'll figure it out.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

Tenchi - 2 (Hero764, kikuchiyo)

Hero764 - 1 (Tenchi)

Not Voting - 4 (Hockeyruler, Feeres, Slaine Hayes, Toledo88)

4 to Lynch

[kikuchiyo]

Unvote.

I can understand the reasoning about voting here, but until I am convinced otherwise I think Tenchi should be our lynch choice. His argument of CJ being a useless townie who shouldn't be carried to endgame is entirely hypocritical when placed next to the "way too early" hammer vote. How are we to justify giving Tenchi a pass to endgame?

FoS: Tenchi

Toledo: your response is reasonable, but not entirely satisfying. I don't see why you would begin the day with who you

don't

think is suspicious, as opposed to starting the day with who you think is.

[Hockeyruler]

I don't think you guys (and gals ) are understanding why Tenchi and I voted the way we did.

I'm not completely sure about Tenchi, but for me it was mainly because


1. It is simply too easy for a mafia member to act this way (newbish) and so not be suspected.
2. He was being unhelpful

Yes, I probably shouldn't have voted so fast, yet mine wasn't the hammer vote and I was just kind of fed up. I had specificaly said before voting essentialy asking if it was okay to vote for someone because they're unhelpful. And then right after CJ posted his "Short Circuits the sun" post. How is that in any way smart?

I probably put a little bit too much emphasis on him being unhelpful, but it is mainly that he would have to get voted one time or other. It is simply too easy for a mafia member to act that way and in later days he would start to look more and more suspicious. Yet we should have talked about it longer.

[Tenchi]

I've been thinking about this situation the whole time and I think that

if you are a townie, and you REALLY doubt I'm a townie because of that vote, then you should lynch me

and not give me a pass for lylo.

I will read more tomorrow. Please don't do the stupidity I did with CJMiller.

[Tenchi]

FoS: kikuchiyo

For putting a vote on Tenchi when really only an FoS was necessary at the time of the post.

Huh? Can you tell me the criteria for what merits a vote versus an FoS? I thought her vote was reasonable.

[Hero764]

I don't think you guys (and gals ) are understanding why Tenchi and I voted the way we did.

I'm not completely sure about Tenchi, but for me it was mainly because


1. It is simply too easy for a mafia member to act this way (newbish) and so not be suspected.
2. He was being unhelpful

1. are you saying that you thought he was mafia trying cover himself up as a noob? Because that completely contradicts what you said before.

As for 2, so you're saying we should lynch any lurkers/inactive players simply because they aren't of use to us?

Also, Tenchi and Hockey, are you going to respond to the questions I asked you?

[Toledo25]

Hero, you seemed rather focused on getting Tenchi at this point with such a temerity (correct me if I used that word in wrong context). You keep on saying that Tenchi voted for CJMiller with prior knowledge that he was in fact a townie. It seems that Tenchi hammered CJ because he could have just been acting. Yet you say that Tenchi knew he was town, and that Tenchi would rather kill a newbie than scum. Though Tenchi only said that he wouldn't let CJ keep on going to the endgame since he was a newb.

I'm beginning to wonder if you (being Hero) are a cop, and you investigated Tenchi and got negative. But the odds of there being a cop and you being it are slim, and I think at this point it's more of a rivalry between you and Tenchi.

Not voting at this point since I'm still not convinced about anyone being scum. Have my suspects though.

As for 2, so you're saying we should lynch any lurkers/inactive players simply because they aren't of use to us?

I think he means one reason he voted for CJ was because CJ was more of a hindrance than help. I'm not sure there was a post by CJ that didn't make himself look more scummy or was void of point.

[Hero764]

Hero, you seemed rather focused on getting Tenchi at this point with such a temerity (correct me if I used that word in wrong context). You keep on saying that Tenchi voted for CJMiller with prior knowledge that he was in fact a townie. It seems that Tenchi hammered CJ because he could have just been acting. Yet you say that Tenchi knew he was town, and that Tenchi would rather kill a newbie than scum. Though Tenchi only said that he wouldn't let CJ keep on going to the endgame since he was a newb.

Focused on Tenchi? Should I let someone who's exhibiting such obvious scumminess off the hook so I lose some focus? No. Sorry I'm focused on winning the game here.

And no I don't keep saying that, go reread through our argument. And that wasn't even my only argument, did you miss the other parts of my posts?

As for 2, so you're saying we should lynch any lurkers/inactive players simply because they aren't of use to us?

I think he means one reason he voted for CJ was because CJ was more of a hindrance than help. I'm not sure there was a post by CJ that didn't make himself look more scummy or was void of point.[/quote]That was the only real reason he provided though, the first one was contradicted by an early statement he made.

[Hero764]

Also, would you care to list your suspects? We need as much discussion as possible right now.

[Toledo25]

So just to understand the basis of the argument: you are accusing Tenchi of being scum because he says lynching CJ was a good move, Tenchi knew CJ was scum, he said he'd rather lynch a newbie townie than scum, and is contradicting himself. Tenchi says your scum because he did not in fact say he'd rather kill newb than scum, CJ looked too much like scum and was unhelpful, he didn't know CJ was pro-town, and says you are lying. Tell me if there's any points I missed.

Also, clarify this point:

2. So you're saying you would rather lynch a newbie than lynch scum?

Shit's just not adding up. Vote: Tenchi

Now this is worse. I have never said I'd rather lynch a newbie rather than lynch scum.

I said I'd rather lynch a suspicious person rather than giving them a free pass because they are new.

Your statements are a stretch. And lying over and over again does not make it true.

Vote: Hero764

Read bold: You're still saying you'd lynch someone over scum.

I don't really see how that says Tenchi would rather kill a townie. I think that he's saying he would lynch CJMiller for being suspicious, even though he is new.

=====================================================
My suspects:

Hero764 and Tenchi are at the top, since they both have made some points in their argument with each other. At this point I believe that at least 1 of them is scum.

Kikuchiyo and Slaine Hayes both seem pretty clean, and I don't have anything to implicate that they are scum. Same with Feeres, but Day 1 left a bad impression.

I don't know really what to think of Hockeyruler yet. He could be either pro-town or pro-mafia, but I really don't know about him.

[Hero764]

Uhh, kinda. Here's the basis:

His first post during Day 2 was what sparked the whole thing, where he said lynching CJ was a good move. Note that it was day 2 and so everyone knew CJ was town at this point, yet Tenchi still claims it was a good move. Why would lynching a townie be a good move? He then proceeds to insist that I was referring to his Day 1 post(despite me quoting his day 2 one, how on earth could you possibly miss that?). This makes him seem scummier. THEN He goes and says he was responding to my Day 1 one post. BUT THEN WHY WOULD YOU QUOTE MY DAY 2 POST? Obvious contradiction. And as for me coming to the conclusion that he would rather lynch a noob than scum, read the second part of his 163 post. I admit that question was a bit rhetorical, and I was probably pushing too hard at that point. Then he starts getting pissed at me and now he's ignoring the argument. My vote is staying.

[Tenchi]

1) You've played other games on this site, you should know very well that once someone gets to L-1 there's usually a discussion as for what to do about it. You barely gave anyone a chance to respond.
2) Again, IT IS NEVER A GOOD MOVE TO LYNCH A TOWNIE. Unless of course, you're scum, which you probably are.

1. This is exactly why I call it a mistake. And the same reason why I expect my lynch. However, I think I have given CJMiller a LOT OF CHANCES to explain his stance properly. I was actually one of the few people who were asking him questions to help him elaborate. The big mistake there was I forgot/misread that other discussions (especially the Feeres one) was not yet done.

2. Repeating it over and over again won't make it true. I'm not rejoicing about lynching CJMiller FAST.

[Tenchi]

Hero, you seemed rather focused on getting Tenchi at this point with such a temerity (correct me if I used that word in wrong context). You keep on saying that Tenchi voted for CJMiller with prior knowledge that he was in fact a townie. It seems that Tenchi hammered CJ because he could have just been acting

and would have gotten away answering questions like that (as scum) or would get himself lynched endgame(as town)

. Yet you say that Tenchi knew he was town, and that Tenchi would rather kill a newbie than scum. Though Tenchi only said that he wouldn't let CJ keep on going to the endgame since he was a newb

who wouldn't answer questions properly and explain his votes with proper logic

.

Fixed

[Tenchi]

...

BUT THEN WHY WOULD YOU QUOTE MY DAY 2 POST? Obvious contradiction.

...

Can you link me to this?

[Tenchi]

I'm beginning to wonder if you (being Hero) are a cop, and you investigated Tenchi and got negative. But the odds of there being a cop and you being it are slim, and I think at this point it's more of a rivalry between you and Tenchi.

Stop fishing. KTHXBYE.

(Cop/Doctor tells should be kept personally, until to be used as proof/counterproof when somebody claims.)

[Tenchi]

I can't find one of my posts :\

Toledo/Kikuchiyo/Hero: If I'm scum, who's my buddy?

[Hero764]

...

BUT THEN WHY WOULD YOU QUOTE MY DAY 2 POST? Obvious contradiction.

...

Can you link me to this?

I find it hard to believe that you're being that unattentive in all of this. Post 156 bro:

Though I do think CJMiller gone is actually a good move for us since I would NEVER give him a free pass on making it to endgame.

1. Could you clarify what you mean by the second part of the sentence(starting with since).

2. That's a really scummy thing to say. It is NEVER a good move to kill a townie.

With how he's acting, it's so easy to assume that he is a noob player. Town or scum I was not sure (In your post, point #2, you are assuming I knew he was town). Some people would give him a benefit of the doubt past D1 and just call him some newbie, but with the way he answered my questions, I have some strong doubts that he was town.

Whatever happened D1 or D2, I would have pushed for the lynch of CJMiller. Dealing with him is just full of WIFOM (is he new, or is he just acting?). I'd rather get it out now.

The mistake I made was ending it too soon. I'm quite surprised you are not questioning me for that.

1. This is exactly why I call it a mistake. And the same reason why I expect my lynch. However, I think I have given CJMiller a LOT OF CHANCES to explain his stance properly. I was actually one of the few people who were asking him questions to help him elaborate. The big mistake there was I forgot/misread that other discussions (especially the Feeres one) was not yet done.

You can't just pass things off as a mistake. I'm inclined to believe you're scum because of all of this and all you do is "whoops, sorry."

Toledo/Kikuchiyo/Hero: If I'm scum, who's my buddy?

Already answered this, but its likely hockeyruler.

[Hero764]

Toledo isn't looking very hot right now either, but there's only two scum in this game, so I'm thinking he might just be acting odd. Of course, I could be wrong. Not ruling out the possibility that he's scum at all.

[Feeres]

My theory why Artem was killed is that the scum is/was in no real threat, so they'd choose a target which can't be connected to either of them and who isn't useful for their purpose of trying to get a townie lynched.

Working on this assumption I went through the people playing and tried to make myself a bulletpoint list of town/scum connections. I'll list people with probably scum/undecided/probably town.

Probably town:
Hero764
Hockeyruler
Slaine Hayes

Undecided:
kikuchiyo

Probably scum:
Tenchi
Toledo88

Hero764 has a town vibe, he's bold in a way and doesn't seem to be afraid of getting lynched lately. Still, there's something odd about him, possibly dropping him to undecided later when I re-read stuff. Hockeyruler is kinda "laying low" while still contributing a bit, nothing scummy but not very strong town either. Slaine is mostly been acting protown, but not much to go on there either.

kikuchiyo I don't know about, seems like she's trying very aggressively to set up a lynch on some people, but also is very direct about it, I could put her in either category really.

Tenchi feels bit like he's trying to lead us in to lynches with some of his posts, implying this and implying that. The hammer seems more like a gambit he's pulling off, trying to make it look like a mistake etc. Toledo88 is looking scummish as well for me, he's mostly been just going with the flow but not really done that much. There's something about his later posts which somehow changed my perception of him. He's fitting my idea of who the scum would be in a way, so that's why I think he probably is scum.

[Tenchi]

You can't just pass things off as a mistake. I'm inclined to believe you're scum because of all of this and all you do is "whoops, sorry."

For that same reason I am expecting my lynch. Just not that soon though.

[Toledo25]

Toledo88 is looking scummish as well for me, he's mostly been just going with the flow but not really done that much. There's something about his later posts which somehow changed my perception of him.

Which posts specifically?

Toledo/Kikuchiyo/Hero: If I'm scum, who's my buddy?

If you are scum, then Hockey might be your partner since you both voted CJ at the end of Day 1 pretty quickly. However, he explained himself pretty quickly and well, so I can't really decide on him.

At this point, since he is acting the most scummish and there is several passing arguments against him, I say

Vote: Tenchi

at this point. It's still another 2 votes to lynching, and I don't feel I would be justified in voting for anyone else.