Open 124 (2:10 Bugs Bunny -- GAME OVER) before 761

[Zachrulez]

Vote : Millar13

[Zachrulez]

For post 6.

[Zachrulez]

Your reasoning is unsound.

[Zachrulez]

Next vote on Empking gets my vote. He's L-2, no point in pushing him farther, no matter his playstyle.

I count 4 votes on Empking.

And 12 players in the game.

Isn't it 7 to lynch?

[Zachrulez]

Often a trait of either someone with a power-role or mafia.

My problem with this, other than the fact that it's completely unsound as a reason, is that Millar reasons that a self voter is likely to either be a power role or mafia.

Now... we only have 1 power role in this game, and it's a doctor. I see potential doc hunting with his pursuit of this vote.

Right now, I would like to know more about why Millar thinks a self vote is a trait of anything... other than the fact that it's generally considered bad play.

[Zachrulez]

@Zachrules: I am confused as to how self voting will help in hunting the doc.

*Sigh*

I think you should re-read post 29. Do it more carefully this time.

[Zachrulez]

I meant self-voting is not good on Day 1.

But can be considered to be a better stance to take later on in a game.

There is no contradiction there.

It doesn't elicit that I am anti-town, as the fact remains no one who is Mafia would actually divulge such a stance at this moment in time.

How is self voting a good stance ever?

[Zachrulez]

Why?

[Zachrulez]

Have you played with Emp before? If so, then it should be obvious. If not, I'm sure it'll only be a matter of time before you find out why.

Once in Open 120... but I was lynched so fast in that game, that I never really got a chance to interact with anyone much at all.

[Zachrulez]

someone on a game I was briefly in, told me the best person to follow in day on is a guy called zwetchenwasser...and seeing as I am now in a game with hm

Unvote Vote: Empking

had to be done

This is lynch -1

Explain yourself.

[Zachrulez]

Wow, you spend an hour driving home from work... and suddenly a game with only 2 pages now has 5.

I've read up and still think Millar is the best lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Millar stop whining!!!!! Just convince us you're town already and stop being a baby about this

Am I being overly optimistic to believe scum wouldn't be as poorly played as millar or should I really consider lynching him? The whining is killing me

Something about both of these posts just seems wrong to me...

[Zachrulez]

It's just that reading those two quotes gave me the impression that he might know Millar is town, and is distancing himself from the lynch. (IMO, a millar lynch is inevitable. He's claimed scum, and pointed out his top doc suspect.)

I get weary of people who don't vote when they throw out bad town excuses, but pave the way for a "reluctant" vote later.

Preview: Empking hammered as I was posting this. I'm just going to throw it out there anyway in case I'm not alive tomorrow.

[Zachrulez]

7 to lynch,, 5 on him, 1 more = L-1.

Really? I thought he had 6 before your vote.

There have been a lot of votes and unvotes though...

[Zachrulez]

The Doc suspect is the only reason I wanted to keep Millar around - in case he's scum sending a line out to his partner.

After re-reading - I feel like Dejkha had it spot on in an earlier post regarding Millar being a pissed off towny who wanted a power role.

Killing Millar will hurt the town.

Unvote; FoS: Giuseppe

Millar's doomed himself. Can we please just hammer and be done with it?

--Earlier, you attached yourself to Emp (through things rofl said) in an attempt to clear your name upon the result of his lynching (you being innocent if....XXX...) - it's way too early in the game, he hadn't done anything scummy, and I think you were trying to buy immunity through it.

--And I think most of us are smart enough to know when someone is a threat to the town or not - - Millar is a threat to himself. I find it suspicious that you would want to hang him so quickly - - It's more of a threat to the town, when townies are being killed willy nilly, and that's what your eagerness kind of gives me a vibe off

I think we can try and put up with Millars annoying antics until he truly works against the town.

Who were you voting for? I can't remember seeing a vote from you. (I saw an unvote higher on this page, but no vote between that one and this one...)

[Zachrulez]

And 172 bothers me now.

"The Doc suspect is the only reason I wanted to keep Millar around - in case he's scum sending a line out to his partner.

After re-reading - I feel like Dejkha had it spot on in an earlier post regarding Millar being a pissed off towny who wanted a power role.

Killing Millar will hurt the town.

"

If he's scum trying to tell his partner about who he suspects is the doc, why the hell would we want to keep him around?!

Also, noting in bold that you have asserted with certainty that lynching Miller will hurt the town.

[Zachrulez]

this game has enough material for you to accurately quote and not paraphrase (poorly).

I thought he was town.

I thought he was scum.

I felt conflicted with both possibilities.

Enough was said by the others for me to consider and I voted him.

If I vote - It's because I think someone is scum.

And other people do matter, Empking, you can't stomp your foot like a child and toss your head - - other people matter and we rely on them for information, evidence, food for thought, and help when you need to clarify.

You're the very definition of a fence sitter my friend.

You just seemed to be sitting back, looking for an excuse to drop that little hammer, while looking for enough excuses that he was town to escape responsibility.

Indeed it seems like you were so convinced he was town... yet were convinced by others that he was scum?

So... basically, you let others tell you what to think? Why is this?

Shouldn't you have your own opinions, and your own suspicions?

Should you not have waited to drop the hammer if you were unsure of Millar?

Your actions seem to be in conflict with your statements.

Vote: AndyTony

I want a better explanation of your mindset yesterday.

[Zachrulez]

Knowing what we know now, Millar was not doc hunting, but I'm curious as to how Zach didn't think Grimmy self voting was at all suspicious. I would think that a self vote would more likely be done by scum than anyone else, possibly to throw people off, so I don't see why he thought to go for millar right away rather than Grimmy, who he made no mention of. But seeing how Grimmy plays, it was probably was just a joke.

I have seen self-voting in RVS so many times it's actually starting to drive me crazy. But with all the times I've seen it, my experience has taught me to consider it a null tell.

[Zachrulez]

I've fallen a bit behind, having trouble making sense of any of the last 20 posts or so.

I'll post something more substantial when I can comprehend what I am reading a little better.

[Zachrulez]

^
|

What he said.

[Zachrulez]

AT: Why are you trying to get Dejhka to move his vote?

What, specifically, made you think that's what he was doing?

Also, if Emp is a matter of "when", why does your vote fall on Guiseppe more so than him? Guiseppe is a victim of what seems to be circumstance (for what you regard as just re-typing more or less what everyone else says).

He's questioning your vote then saying why you shouldn't vote Gui.

AT: Refusing to answer questions noted.

Well the question is a tad loaded to begin with...

[Zachrulez]

Zach - Dej -

is this an Emp trap of confusion and no productivity?

I don't know what it is... but his question to you is loaded.

Cause you have to concede that you were trying to get Dej to move his vote to even be able to answer it...

I'm gonna

unvote

while I re-evaluate my stand on things.

[Zachrulez]

Oh boy...

I'll sort through all this crap later.

[Zachrulez]

I guess I should play with a full effort, voting for someone without all of the facts while I'm STILL behind on my reading eh Giuseppe?

The large exchange between Emp and AT, and then later Zwet and Dejkha has not done much to motivate me to catch up either.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach- Apathy about the game won't help us. Even though they've had their unfortunate discourses, it's important that you weigh in. Saying, basically, that because you don't like the discussion that you aren't going to put any input in isn't helpful to anyone.

Get over their squabbles, and give an opinion.

Right. I'll post on your schedule when you want me to...

Patience, this isn't the only thing in my life that I have to deal with you know.

[Zachrulez]

<--- Reading

[Zachrulez]

Personally after reading the first 200 posts or so, I'm curious to find out why Giuseppe reacted so defensively when Rofl suggested a possible Giuseppe lynch if Emp flips scum?

It's hard to fathom how his overreaction makes sense. He only has something to worry about if Emp is scum, and if he's town... that means a dead scum. I just don't get it.

But yeah, there's a lot of crap to read... and it's hurting my head. I'll probably have to read it again to make sure I am comprehending everything.

[Zachrulez]

Random things I’m think about this game:

millar13 - 6 - Zachrulez, madeofphail, Giuseppe, roflcopter, Cephrir, Empking, AT

These are who we should be looking at, admittedly I haven’t been active enough in this game, but I got one hellova bad vibe from the way things rolled along yesterday. Not gonna do a whole “told ya so” bit, but the likelihood of scum pushing this along is higher than average.

Did you actively avoid the bandwagon as scum so that you could name off everyone on Millar's bandwagon and say OMG scum is on the wagon?

This looks scummy to me. It's also the kind of argument you can use to blend yourself as town, cause you can go back and say, "The wagon was scum driven and Look, I wasn't on the wagon."

[Zachrulez]

@Zach- I was offended because I didn't think that there was anything conclusive enough about my behavior to warrant suggesting that if Empking were lynched, I would be the next obvious lynch. If Emp were scum, I'd be next in the firing line, when I was clearly defending him from just a quick lynch, not condemning his lynch permanently.

The problem with the way you reacted was that Emp being scum shouldn't bother you if you're town, because it means a dead scum. Who cares if it makes you more likely to be lynched? Besides, it's not like we'd just lynch you before considering anything you would have to say in your own defense in that scenario. It just seems like you grossly overreacted.

[Zachrulez]

Did you actively avoid the bandwagon as scum so that you could name off everyone on Millar's bandwagon and say OMG scum is on the wagon?

This looks scummy to me. It's also the kind of argument you can use to blend yourself as town, cause you can go back and say, "The wagon was scum driven and Look, I wasn't on the wagon."

You're trying too hard to invoke WIFOM, but that only works if the answers are equally likely. I'm trying to keep it to the most likely, simplest solution (scum on board a wagon) and honestly I didn't vote for millar because I didn't think he was scum. We have too many players (Emp, zwet, millar) to be killing people for abrasive, short-posting, and quite frankly stupid styles. It could put us in a deep hole quickly.

Let me say this as simply as I know how.

You can't know how scum voted if you don't know who the scum are.

[Zachrulez]

Did you actively avoid the bandwagon as scum so that you could name off everyone on Millar's bandwagon and say OMG scum is on the wagon?

This looks scummy to me. It's also the kind of argument you can use to blend yourself as town, cause you can go back and say, "The wagon was scum driven and Look, I wasn't on the wagon."

You're trying too hard to invoke WIFOM, but that only works if the answers are equally likely. I'm trying to keep it to the most likely, simplest solution (scum on board a wagon) and honestly I didn't vote for millar because I didn't think he was scum. We have too many players (Emp, zwet, millar) to be killing people for abrasive, short-posting, and quite frankly stupid styles. It could put us in a deep hole quickly.

Let me say this as simply as I know how.

You can't know how scum voted if you don't know who the scum are.

Probability. Are you honestly gonna tell me that it's more likely for scum to abstain or vote elsewhere then being a part of the lynch?

Probability of what? They only control 2 of 12 votes.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP

They only control

ed[/v] 2 of 12 votes.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

Giuseppe - 2 - dejkha, AndyTony

AndyTony - 1 - Empking
Empking - 1 - Giuseppe

Grimmy - 0
dejkha - 0
zwetschenwasser - 0
Pablo Molinero - 0
Zachrulez - 0
Cephrir - 0
madeofphail - 0

Not Voting: zwetschenwasser, millar13, roflcopter, Cephrir, Pablo Molinero, Grimmy, Zachrulez, madeofphail

With 10 players, it takes 6 to Lynch.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP

DAMMIT!

They only control

ed

2 of 12 votes.

[Zachrulez]

Phail, is your theory to lynch empking to help give us an idea of whether or not the millar bandwagon was scum ridden?

I think I understand the argument you are making here to a point. That if Emp is scum, then both he and his buddy tacked their votes onto Millar acting in his own preservation.

Also that if Emp is town, it's less likely, but still possible, that the wagon was scum driven.

Do I have it right?

[Zachrulez]

Getting suspicion on them isn't a method of getting someone off L-1.

If Millar was my scum buddy then it would have been in this case.

After this post, I think everyone should be voting for Emp...

Vote : Empking

The way I see it the post is Emp stating that he wasn't scum with Millar while implying that he's scum with someone else.

[Zachrulez]

You're wrong Andy.

No lynches are a horrible proposition.

It basically shifts the deaths into the night phase, exactly where we don't want them.

And basically gives free kills as scum most certainly don't have to fear dying in the no lynch scenario.

[Zachrulez]

I'm saying at this very moment - I feel it's no lynch because everyone is bitching about "wah wah wah, I want to lynch this person, they are ABSOLUTELY gone before day two" but I'm not seeing the votes, and I'm not seeing the EVIDENCE - - I'm seeing speculation.

We're focusing on "We have to lynch! We have to lynch"

And we're forgetting that our objective is "We have to find scum"
---------------------------------
No lynch at this very moment means we lose one towny instead of two.

I'm saying that FROM this very moment until deadline, I am STRONGLY hoping that we get evidence and a solid and responsible choice that means more to us than utility lynching.

My mindset of trying to lessen town expense is pretty bang on unless you can tell me RIGHT NOW who is scum and why, otherwise we're being IRRESPONSIBLE. Maybe I feel guilty about being responsible for the first mis-lynch but I will be damned if I'm the cuase of another one.
----------------
You raise a great point about the lurkers you listed - - Why not prod and investigate them instead of wager who is best to lynch "just in case" so to speak.

Yes, our main objective is to find scum, and we don't find scum by no lynching.

[Zachrulez]

I think hammering this early in the game is irresponsible.

We should look for suspicion, not the obvious. The only obvious thing here is that millar plays poorly and is harmful to himself.

I find Guiseppe suspicious enough for us to simply talk to at this point. Let's get progressive conversation going.

By your logic, if Empking comes up scum, I can't be town. Which couldn't be true, from my perspective, because I am a pro-town player. Thus, if I'm to agree with you, Empking must be town.

Empking is someone who is LYNCHABLE but not SCUM-like (yet) - - that's very valuable to scum. If someone is going to be lynched, but isn't likely scum, they can make a statement like the above quote in an attempt to gain immunity when the person dies. "I'm innocent is XXX is found to be XXX" - it's too early for antics like that and it strikes me as scummy

I'd like to hear everyone's thought on this. - I'm not looking for us to get torches and pitch forks or anything, but it's worth regarding more than this Millar character at the moment

Tag fixed.

2 posts from Andy followed this. Both focused on Millar.

I thought it important to point this out as he stated that he found it worth talking about Giuseppe over hammering... but then came back around 12 hours later to hammer despite saying that hammering that early in the game would be irresponsible.

So what happened to all that discussion on Giuseppe that you wanted on day 1? From what I see, you seem to have had far more interest in whether or not you should have hammered Millar. (Which is what I was focused on at the start of day 2. Completely missed the fact that you encouraged discussion on Giuseppe that never came because of your hammer until re-read.)

[Zachrulez]

I've always answered my questions fully and don't have a problem with them because they always shed a little bit more light on innocence and guilt - that being said, is everybody honestly satisfied with the responses I've been given by Ceph?

He's been lurking, popping up and down from the radar, people pleasing, and now he's sitting on the fence trying not to have responsibility for the things he says.

...Really? I just got done explaining how I'm not doing this. Tell me how I'm wrong or shut up. I am not fence sitting in any way, I've made my position pretty damn clear by this point and I thought you were finally getting it. Maybe I'll be a little blunter and that will help, even though I thought I was speaking simply enough already. I SUPPORT LYNCHING EMPKING. IT TOOK ME A WHILE TO COME TO TERMS WITH THIS BUT I HAVE ACCEPTED IT. Is that clear enough for ya?

I read this and feel like Andy is trying to blame Cephrir for the hammer he has not dropped yet...

Do we absolutely HAVE to lynch Emp today? I think a decent case can be made to lynching AndyTony instead. I am feeling more and more weary about him the more he posts.

[Zachrulez]

Mop - Why are you voting me?

This is not a claim. Try again.

Cephrir is scum.

Unvote

Vote: Cephrir

How? Why?

[Zachrulez]

Maybe someone can help me understand what Emp's trying to say.

Otherwise I guess he's not making any sense at all.

[Zachrulez]

I understand some of his last post.

But my general understanding is that it's common to ask players to claim at lynch -1.

I don't see how it makes Cephrir scum.

[Zachrulez]

zach

After this post, I think everyone should be voting for Emp...

Vote : Empking

The way I see it the post is Emp stating that he wasn't scum with Millar while implying that he's scum with someone else.

Awful, awful, awful logic capitilizing on a minimalist (and annoying) player. Complete leap of logic and a bad reason.

Also, when I suggested to look hard at the Day 1 wagon/voters, both Ceph and Zach become defensive (being on the wagon), but it was mostly dropped (my fault for low activity) when I asserted my claim that scum could be pushing the wagon. Anywho, the point is that their behavior is that kind of self-justification, self-preservation is unhelpful at best and scummy at worst.

Vote: Giuseppe
FoS: Zachrulez

There you go pushing that scum driven wagon again.

Your position is logically flawed, because as scum, you have every motivation to lead the town to believe that the wagon was in fact scum driven, so that they'll never call you on your distancing from townie lynches.

FOS: Pablo

That said, if you're hypothetically scum, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that your scumbuddy was on the wagon... and really, what reason would you have to worry about him getting lynched? I mean, you're the one telling us it's scum driven, and you're the one who will tell us who to suspect right? Even if we don't listen to you, it's still a minimal risk, and validates your theory even if we did manage to hypothetically hit your scumbuddy...

[Zachrulez]

Dammit! Pull this win out, town. Do it for the Pablo!

If you weren't dead, this would be a scumtell.

Vote: dejkha

Do you have an explanation for this vote?

[Zachrulez]

Zwet's play seems very unusual for him. At least to me. Backpedaling is very unlike him from what I've come to know of his town meta.

[Zachrulez]

You admit the vote was a test, and now him "failing" the test is justification for your vote?

Huh?!

[Zachrulez]

I understand your case, but the most I'll give him is an FoS for now.

Here's some more blatant dej scumminess.

Are you ever going to say why or are you just going to repeatedly quote what I said and say it's scummy? I wouldn't be surprised if Zwet flipped scum. I'm probably the biggest threat to him because I've, on many occasions, supported his and Emps utility lynch and I'm pretty sure every game I've found something scummy about him, so if he were scum it would make sense that he would want me out of the picture. I assume he would've done it better though.

My thought here was if you were such a threat to Zwet, why wouldn't he NK you? Surely it's a lot easier than trying to lynch you.

I have seen him as a townie, directly implicate players based on nightkills alone however, so it would stand to reason that he might NOT NK you for fear of being implicated in the manner that he reasoned in this other game I played with him. (I can't link it because it's ongoing, but he was town in it.)

On the other hand though, something can be said for the fact that his hypothetical scum buddy would have some say over the NK as well, and would have pushed for your NK for the fact that you are seen as Zwet's biggest threat on the premise of the utility lynching.

Large bit of WIFOM in there. The truth of it is that Zwet's play has been quite unusual, especially today.

[Zachrulez]

Zach seems to be flying onto the wagons of people he would know are townie, and so did phial. (see my above arguement about Dej, because this applies to them as well).

Huh?

[Zachrulez]

Zach strikes me as potentially being Zwet's scum partner

WHAT?!

I think a decent case can be made to lynching AndyTony instead. I am feeling more and more weary about him the more he posts.

He randomly tried to point a finger at me without evidence. The above quote is part of a post where he sates that he didn't believe Emp should be lynched.

I wasn't really sure about his lynch. To be quite honest, I kinda went with the crowd on that lynch, and that post I attacked him for was my excuse for voting him to go along with the crowd. He was not my first choice for a lynch, but my posts were generally being ignored and buried 1-2 pages deep and forgotten in a matter of hours. I've been classified a lurker. I was pretty close to the point of not caring at that point in the game.

I regret not pushing other leads harder. Have to live with the Emp lynch now I guess.

He seemed to have forgotten that he himself had a vote on Emp at the time, Emp was at L-1, and I was NOT the only person pushing for a hammer. I think it was a scum tactic to aid the wagon yet be able to say later "Hey! A part of me knew the guy was innocent, I'm not mailicious!"

Well yeah, but I made no real active effort to derail the lynch for bogus reasons or no reason whatsoever, and I haven't made any effort to blame anyone for the lynch. (Which is the usual follow through for scum.)
--------

Then Pablo points out the flaws in Zach's logic,

After this post, I think everyone should be voting for Emp...

Vote : Empking

The way I see it the post is Emp stating that he wasn't scum with Millar while implying that he's scum with someone else.

Awful, awful, awful logic capitilizing on a minimalist (and annoying) player. Complete leap of logic and a bad reason.

Vote: Giuseppe
FoS: Zachrulez

The above was fair and understandable, yet...

There you go pushing that scum driven wagon again.

Your position is logically flawed,

because as scum, you have every motivation to lead the town to believe that the wagon was in fact scum driven, so that they'll never call you on your distancing from townie lynches.

FOS: Pablo

That said, if you're hypothetically scum, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that your scumbuddy was on the wagon... and really, what reason would you have to worry about him getting lynched? I mean, you're the one telling us it's scum driven, and

you're the one who will tell us who to suspect right?

Even if we don't listen to you, it's still a minimal risk, and validates your theory even if we did manage to hypothetically hit your scumbuddy...

Zach has flawed and slightly hypocritical logic once more in what I feel is an OMGUS FoS on Pablo (who I might point out dies later in the night).
----------------------
Zach hopped on the Emp wagon - - got pissed at me who was ALSO on the wagon and said I should be lynched (didn't elaborate) - - then was inquired by Pablo, to whom Zach calls scum (once again doesn't elaborate) and Pablo later dies in the night.

I think Zwet's buddy might be Zach

Hypocritical how?

I never got a chance to elaborate cause moron Zwet dropped the hammer... oh yeah, I guess that makes him my buddy.

Oh I love these hammers that cut off discussion before I have a chance to make my case or unvote, or explain anything... and now apparently it's damning evidence that I'm scum with Zwet.

Whatever.

Also in rebuttal to my post against Pablo. You don't really understand the term

Hypothetical

do you?

[Zachrulez]

You do realize that if we mislynch today and there's no doc protect, tomorrow is potentially lylo right?

Zwet's difficult to read and often makes NO sense as town, and is generally frustrating to play with.

But to hell with that, just lynch him right? I mean why not? We've already lynched Emp and Millar!

[Zachrulez]

I wasn't really sure about his lynch. To be quite honest, I kinda went with the crowd on that lynch

That's what I'm saying - If you were unsure, why not voice more on it and pull him off L-1? You're complaining about a hammer ending your line of thoughts and magically clearing your suspicions the next day? You ARE allowed to voice suspicions the next day, you know -and you could have bought your OWN time by taking him off L-1

Yeah, I was considering doing exactly that when Zwet hammered... I hate this game.

He seemed to have forgotten that he himself had a vote on Emp at the time, Emp was at L-1, and I was NOT the only person pushing for a hammer.

Well yeah, but I made no real active effort to derail the lynch for bogus reasons or no reason whatsoever

Then why turn attention away from a wagon we were both on, and say I would be the best lynch without giving any reasons?

Like I said, I never got a chance to explain. I will... eventually, but right now I hate this game and can't be bothered to do the analysis. Once I get around to doing my analysis on you, I am going to try to analyze everyone else in the game as well... because you know, lylo doesn't really appeal to me.

Hypocritical how?

I never got a chance to elaborate cause moron Zwet dropped the hammer... oh yeah, I guess that makes him my buddy.

Oh I love these hammers that cut off discussion before I have a chance to make my case or unvote, or explain anything... and now apparently it's damning evidence that I'm scum with Zwet.

Nobody told you to keep your vote. You could have bought yourself more time.

You're hypocritical because you defend having a statement about poor logic WITH poor logic.

Are you suggesting that all of yoru thoughts and suspicions and seemingly non-existent evidence goes away after a hammer and the next day you drop it?

Not dropping it. I will explain my suspicions, do analysis, and help the town as best as I can. Like I said, I hate this game, and am getting quickly fed up with the one liner back and forths that are 10-20 posts long that don't motivate me to read the few content posts within the fighting that doesn't help anything at all. Everytime I make an effort to try to understand what is going on, there's a whole new barrage of posts to go through. It's very frustrating. (I do have other games that don't even come CLOSE to this pace.)

I'm constantly behind trying to catch up. In order to do so I will need to set aside a LOT of time to do a LOT of analysis.

All I've asked is to be given the time to do all this.

It's up to you guys I guess. You can let me try to make my own kind of sense about this game so far...

Or you can just keep lynching.

[Zachrulez]

I admire the passion, but it seems to be firing up with Zwet which only feeds my concern.

Take your time, but know that you've had it in the past as well as the power to make time for yourself by taking that vote of Emp.
-----------------------------------

I can understand your frustration with this game, but understand my own frustration when a player like Zwet works through numerous games, building a meta on himself that will ultimately serve him (as it is now) as an immunity card

I don't think we should give into his immunity (which he's built nicely with a meta of being a shitty player)

How stupid would we feel if we ignore his current scumminess over that?

I'm not saying that we should ignore Zwet's behavior. I'm just saying we shouldn't quickly condemn him as scum and lynch him. I personally think he requires analysis, a lot of analysis. It is also possible to figure out what he's thinking if you push the right buttons and ask the right questions (though admittedly frustrating.)

I don't want to lynch him on the same basis we lynched Millar and Emp, mainly because of the results that those lynches yielded. I want to do a full analysis, and feel relatively confident about casting a vote on him before I actually do it.

I also want to try to get a analysis on everyone else. We don't want to be giving players free passes for overlooked behavior at this stage in the game.

[Zachrulez]

I can understand your frustration with this game, but understand my own frustration when a player like Zwet works through numerous games, building a meta on himself that will ultimately serve him (as it is now) as an immunity card

I don't think we should give into his immunity (which he's built nicely with a meta of being a shitty player)

How stupid would we feel if we ignore his current scumminess over that?[/quote]

I happen to have a few completed games that could be useful in helping us determine whether Zwet is being more consistant with the way he's playing as town or as scum.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0 (Zwet is scum in this game.)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0 (Zwet is town here.)

The thing I'm looking to do is read Zwet in isolation in both of those games, read him in isolation here, and try to determine whether his play is more consistent with town or scum.

I have a little bit of time to do that now. (Unlikely to finish though.)

But I thought it might be helpful to present it to everyone in order to help people be able to get a better read on Zwet. (Mainly cause I'm interested in lynching him for doing actions that are scummy by his own standards, and not just as a utility lynch.)

So yeah, I'm off to read now.

[Zachrulez]

Because your dodge of it was scummier.

Sorry, but your dodge was WAY scummier than Emp's scumtell.

dejkha, you dodged responding to empking's scumtell. EMPKING DID SAY SOMETHING SCUMMY, BUT YOU NOT WILLING TO CALL HIM OUT ON IT IS A SCUMMIER SCUMTELL.

Vote: Empking

And so dies uselessness...

Now, as I read back, I am seeing a very clear story from Zwet... and it's one that doesn't add up.

I have just plucked 3 posts of him arguing that Dejkha was scummier than Empking on day 2, and then I plucked the hammer post.

The issue here is this. I've never known Zwet to play this way. As town he makes bad cases, refuses to listen to reason, does not understand the refutation of points against his cases, and continues to push them even after they have been effectively broken by better players, BUT, the one thing that isn't adding up here is Zwet not going after who he considers to be his top suspect. This is something I've always known him to do as town regardless of how in tune he is with the discussion going on in the game.

This was the one thing I was trying to put my finger on with his meta and the comments that his play has been unlike what I know of his play as town.

Vote: zwetschenwasser

I'll be doing analysis on everyone else, but I am comfortable enough at this point to vote for Zwet.

[Zachrulez]

I enjoy hammering.

That's your explanation for hammering a player despite the fact that you found another more suspicious?

It's not a very good one.

[Zachrulez]

Then what's the other half?

[Zachrulez]

So Emp's uselessness and your love for hammering trumped the fact that you found Dejkha more suspicious?

I hope you realize why that doesn't look very good for you...

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

zwetschenwasser - 4 - Cephrir, AndyTony, Zachrulez, madeofphail

madeofphail - 1 - dejkha
dejkha - 1 - zwetchenwasser

Cephrir - 0
AndyTony - 0
Giuseppe - 0
Grimmy - 0
Zachrulez - 0

Not Voting: Grimmy, Giuseppe

With 8 players, it takes 5 to Lynch.

[Zachrulez]

The best thing for us to do at this point would be to do an analysis of all the remaining living players before we get hasty and vote right off the bat.

I'm gonna start reading the posts of the remaining living players in isolation and see what I can get going in the way of analysis.

[Zachrulez]

AndyTony's case is interesting, except for the fact that a good size of it was made as a case for me being scumbuddies with zwet yesterday.

Yeah, that theory was sure ironclad...

I hope I don't end up regretting not pushing for your lynch harder on day 2...

[Zachrulez]

However, in all fairness - - how many cases have been ironclad at this point?

Phail based a number of his on hypothetical scenarios and I hadn't heard you complain -- nor complain when he and Dej made several suggestions of how person A could be scumbuddies with person B depending on circumstances changing.

What I mean by this is that we have all maintained evidence on different people at different times - however the cases change when the circumstance does.

part

of my evidence on you is yes, from an earlier case - however the circumstances just make more sense to me when applied with you and Phail instead of Zwet.

I figured this was better than nothing, and certainly more than a crapshot/straw grasp, you know? I'm sure everyone has looked at the new day on the board, and yet we've got little to no posting.

I still have Grimmy and Ceph to take consideration to - - I just want everyone's opinion, Zach.

I noticed from reading this post that it reads very much like AndyTony has some kind of suspicion on anyone but himself and Dejkha.

Perhaps this is a serious whoops moment?

I'll have to do some reading. Phail has gotten far less attention from me in this game than he should have.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: MadeofPhail

So are we going to sit here and listen to you and Dejkha on yet another lynch while you go around and blame others for them flipping town?

Oh, and you realize if Phail ain't scum, scum can pretty much quick hammer, which is a town loss in lylo?

Just thought I'd mention that.

[Zachrulez]

And following that up, this is the way I'm seeing things right now.

madeofphail

dejkha

Cephrir

AndyTony

Grimmy
Zachrulez

[Zachrulez]

Cool, now if you could only just start why doing something other than throwing out accusations, that would be great because that's pretty much all we're getting from you recently. You seem to continually be trying to stop certain lynches from happening (for reasons scum would want) without explanation.

I guess that was some sort of veiled accusation.

Not that all the previous lynches have pretty much been anything but easy and against players that seemed completely unable to defend themselves (Millar, Emp, Zwet.)

How are you and AndyTony not obvscum?

@Mod: Apologies. I completely lasped on that rule. I don't really have any excuse and should have known better...

[Zachrulez]

I guess that was some sort of veiled accusation.

Not that all the previous lynches have pretty much been anything but easy and against players that seemed completely unable to defend themselves (Millar, Emp, Zwet.)

How are you and AndyTony not obvscum?

I think it's veiled because you truly don't know how to accuse us directly without evidence.

Huh?

That being said. Can you give us any?

Poked me with a stick one too many times...

The second part of your quote makes me more uncomfortable with you. Do you know how many of the lynches you had a hand in? All of them. You were a tool in the death of all of those people, and now, in having no cases on other people, you're throwing accusations around with no case, and you're distancing yourself from the wagons you were on.

I could careless how comfortable you are with me... scum need people to be comfortable with them. As far as being a tool in the deadl of all those people... I can't BELIEVE you just said that.

Okay. You've both argued your points well, and though I have my feelings toward lynching town, I suppose it is the only way to know.

gah.... I've been working on an essay and it's after midnight lol I thought I'd be coming to this board with some happy thing to read upon that didn't rack my brain more!!!

Okay.

Vote: Millar13

Phail - thanks for your concise point of view - - Giuseppe, appreciate the clarifiction on the FoS I had earlier..

I'll be back when I can. Gonna nap.

You hammered Millar while sounding unsure of yourself.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCountTM

Empking - 6 - Giuseppe, Zachrulez, dejkha, AndyTony, madeofphail, zwetschenwasser

Cephrir - 1 - Empking
Giuseppe - 1 - Pablo Molinero

AndyTony - 0
Grimmy - 0
dejkha - 0
zwetschenwasser - 0
Pablo Molinero - 0
Zachrulez - 0
madeofphail - 0

Not Voting: Cephrir, Grimmy

With 10 players, it takes 6 to Lynch.

Your reasons for your emp vote...

K...

Vote : Empking

At the very least, I'd like this to inspire him to post a bit more and at the very least defend himself.

I've considered the evidence on him and Guiseppe in realtion, yes, to the relationships. I suppose I value direct links rather than webs of "if this person is X than that person is Y" - -

Can you hit me up with that list of who is potentially what based on his allignment?

This is like a joke that stopped being funny a long time ago.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCountTM

zwetschenwasser - 5 - Cephrir, AndyTony, Zachrulez, madeofphail, Grimmy

madeofphail - 1 - dejkha
dejkha - 1 - zwetchenwasser

Cephrir - 0
AndyTony - 0
Giuseppe - 0
Grimmy - 0
Zachrulez - 0

Not Voting: Giuseppe

With 8 players, it takes 5 to Lynch.

Your reasons for your Zwet vote...

As for the rest. I just think the on/off voting patterns like that are scummy (and I haven't turned a blind eye to Andy Tony's either)

Remember he's saying we

both

pulled off after that big defense post - - and I don't believe there was ever a change in vote pattern without me specifically saying why - I think the reason is chief, Dej - what you're saying would make sense, but I think it applies to someone who's following the wagons like stock markets rather than explaining their actions.

Deal with it. They're true.

I'm explaining that my only way to deal with it is to vote you on finding it scummy, Zwet - I understand your attention span is shorter than your posts and don't want to burden you, but until you can illustrate your reasoning behind what I regarded as scummy

Vote: Zwet

Far as I'm concerned, talking to Grimmy is a matter of finding out if he's your partner. No reason to take a vote off one scum just because we all remember there's another.

Cheers, Zwet. Wish you'dve cared enough to have just cleared it all up.

Nice...

Bad cases, bad logic, distancing, all in exchange for lurking. I think I preferred your lurking.

OF COURSE YOU DID. You're one to talk about bad cases, bad logic, and distancing when you've done all of the above in past lynches with your past reasoning.

Hey, Zwet and Guiseppe are scum! I'm sure of it! Oh shit they're not? It's not my fault, it's Zach's! Look! He was on every lynching bandwagon.

WELL SO WERE YOU! What say you to that now? Will you try to rationalize your actions hypocritically in a desperate effort to paint me as scum, an attempt to prevent us from realizing that we should have lynched you on day 2?

How will you rationalize the way you weakly hopped on every lynching wagon, while rationalizing their town flips as being someone else pulling the strings? How can it not be you? How can you? Do you even need to convince us that it's not you anymore? Or do you really feel like your scum victory is so inevitable this close to the end that you can make any shitty argument you need and just deflect anything I say against you by saying that I'm a lurker?

Not to mention the ridiculousness that has spawned from you over the last few days attempting to stick people to your lynches as their "scumbuddies." Yeah, your logic is so flawless that once it becomes impossible for your accused players to be scum paired with said players, you change your theories accusing the same people with crappy tunnelvision with new crappy logic that is also based similarly on the same logic that you used to try to link the people to the now confirmed townies in the first place.

Zach and Zwet are likely scumbuddies.

oh shit, Zwet was town, Zach was distancing. *Insert lame logic here*

Obviously scum? Why do you keep trying to have other people make cases against themselves to save you the work?

... Yeah, what do you have to say for yourself now. In light of all this work I've just done, this comment seems a bit ridiculous now doesn't it?

My vote stands

Yeah, speaking of votes...

Vote: AndyTony

I may regret not pushing for your lynch harder earlier in the game, but there's still time to correct that little mistake.

Shortened reason: For trying to distance away from his own hand in the lynching of the 3 townies in this game while attempting to hypocritically cast blame on me for being on the bandwagons as well.

One thing I can say for you AndyTony is that there's a lot of information for me to make my cases out of. About 130 posts worth.

To wit Dejkha has posted something around 113 times.

Even Dejkha has posted almost twice as often as Zwet, who posts nothing but one liners usually as it is, and is usually a pretty easy read. This seems quite unusual to me.

I think it's worth noting (and I did some math on this.) That your posts combined comprise of 35% of the game posts. (And probably even more of the game space when we consider the size of your posts.

I think this is fair game, considering that you both have attacked us all so much on lurking, cause I could see it as a viable strategy to intentionally overpost to make it more difficult for the rest of us to read through the game and actually encourage the very lurking you are so brazenly accusing us all of...

Yeah...

[Zachrulez]

And with that, I'll share some posting statistics of some of the remaining living players

Grimmy - 21 posts
Ceprir - 37 posts
Phail - 41 posts
Zachrulez - 64 posts (65 counting this one.)
Dejkha - 113 posts
AndyTony - 130 posts

Just thought this would make things a little clearer for everyone.

[Zachrulez]

So your point is that I'm trying to prevent Phail's lynch?

I haven't actively defended or attacked Phail in anyway. (Though I do recall that one of both you and AndyTony may have said some things that could be seen as a lead in to lining up his lynch for today on day 3. I will have to look into it.)

So what's your point? If I thought Phail was scum that would be one thing. I think what has become painfully obvious is that all of the lynches have in reality been controlled by you and AT.

And I haven't really seen anything that makes me think Phail is scum, but apparently you guys have, and have decided not to act on it until today or all days. (After lynching all of the weaker players.)

[Zachrulez]

Also Dejkha, are you honestly saying you don't find my case against AT interesting in the least?

I mean, even if you disagree with any points I made against you... I would have to find it strange if you didn't.

[Zachrulez]

My top 3 suspects are in no particular order:

Cephir
Zachrulez
MadeofPhail

While one of them flipped town, I still want to take a better look at the other two, and I shall do so as the week goes on.

Grimmy
cut and pasted the above from an older post

We're all still alive.

What are you talking about?

[Zachrulez]

So the answer is no.

You may steamroll this town and win the game, but I'm not going to lay down for you.

[Zachrulez]

Yes, I want everyone to take note of my high post count, but not only that, but I want you all to look at my post count in other games so you can see how similar it is.

Looked up your post count for one of the other games you have posted in recently besides this one.

I won't name it since it's ongoing, but you posted 55 times in that game.

I will also note that it's almost twice as long as this game is post wise.

[Zachrulez]

And another game that's been going on longer than this one.

23 posts.

Scrolled down a little more for that one.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

madeofphail - 2 - dejkha, AndyTony

AndyTony - 1 - Zachrulez

dejkha - 0
Cephrir - 0
Grimmy - 0
Zachrulez - 0

Not Voting: Grimmy, Cephrir, madeofphail

With 6 players, it takes 4 to Lynch.

[Zachrulez]

I disagree, you asked to be metaed in this regard, which is scummy in and of itself.

And now you're flailing in defense because I've found 2 games that don't compare to your ever lovely frequent posting meta.

So your excuse for one is that it's a large theme game (Which I would imagine would give you more people and things to talk about.)

And you forgot about the other...

But it's not your opinion that matters, and I have to wonder why you're posting so frequently to discredit it...

[Zachrulez]

And don't try to bury this under 20 posts. I'll keep bolding these post numbers to make sure they are read.

[Zachrulez]

The problem is that those are ongoing. You have no support if you don't know my role in those games, thus making your argument full of flaws.

It's not about knowing your role, you're kinda fogging up the point a bit.

You argued Meta as a defense. This is about games that don't apply to your meta.

It's not about your alignment in those games, it's about you acting as though your meta was consistent with ALL your games when it was not.

[Zachrulez]

I haven't even gotten into metaing AndyTony yet either to see if his posting level is consistent either.

I'll do that, and start looking at Phail's posts. (I believe I had trouble understanding what he was trying to say at least half the time.) Which on a rough read puts him in the same category as Millar, Zwet, and Emp.

We'll see if that changes.

[Zachrulez]

Also, I think Zach missed post 707. Give'er a read, Zach.

Vote: AndyTony

I may

regret not pushing for your lynch harder earlier in the game, but there's still time to correct that little mistake

.

Shortened reason:

For trying to distance away from his own hand in the lynching of the 3 townies in this game while attempting to hypocritically cast blame on me for being on the bandwagons as well.

Particularily here.

For the last time. I told Zach he was on all the wagons - I did not say I wasn't on them too - I was reminding him that his hands were just as dirty and the argument was weak - - - that isn't scummy or hypocritical.

So since that's the basis of his case.

Why does the above quote suggest he once again held back on piping up when he was suspicious. I called this out on him before and am still annoyed that he only seems to voice his will to schumhunt whenever it's convenient for him.

When it's convenient for him meanin - when people are scumhunting HIM. He's looking to me becuase I "Poked him one too many times"? So he's a sleeping animal/child? Really?

And twice he gets his back against a wall and comes out with

"Well I WANTED to vote so and so, but didn't....I regret it now... **pouting** I won't make that mistake again..."

Well, your mistakes have a name, Zach - - "Scumtells".

You have lurking against you, hypocrisy, OMGUS, and a vote on a player with no solid case lol

I think my points have a stronger base than yours, friend lol
---------------

Unvote : MadeofPhail
Vote: Zachrulez

I recently made the mistake of trying to lynch the suspected partner of a scum instead of the person out of the two who seemed more of a sure thing - - It cost me the town and won't happen again.

Phail lurking at this time doesn't bode well for him either, but Zach has dug his own hole.

Bolded the important parts of this part for you.

You just made everything crystal clear in a way I never could.

And accusing me of OMGUS is bullshit when YOU'RE the one casting a vote for me in response to my vote of you.

And yes, I know you're going to argue that my attacks were based in response to you, but you KNOW that's bullshit, because you KNOW I was attacking you long before you started attacking me.

[Zachrulez]

I haven't even gotten into metaing AndyTony yet either to see if his posting level is consistent either.

I'll do that, and start looking at Phail's posts. (I believe I had trouble understanding what he was trying to say at least half the time.) Which on a rough read puts him in the same category as Millar, Zwet, and Emp.

We'll see if that changes.

And you apparently missed this when you accused me of not reading 707.

Even though I initially missed it in your rapid fire responses that came at the same time as Dejkha's rapid fire responses.

I DID see it eventually though... but I guess you're goal is to constantly keep me distracted and replying to current events rather than actually be able to go back and read through the game.

Noted.

[Zachrulez]

Also, are you threatening to call Dej scum if he doesn't support you?

Also Dejkha, are you honestly saying you don't find my case against AT interesting in the least?

I mean, even if you disagree with any points I made against you... I would have to find it strange if you didn't.

I meant it exactly the way I said it.

Way to misrepresent scumbag.

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 26&start=0

42 game posts

Completed game.

TOWN

[Zachrulez]

I guess you missed the many times where he unvotes because he's supposedly found many flaws in his posts and reasons...

Fair enough.

Zach 682: so posting is scummy? =P

You mean 689 I think

I dont see much on dej in that post but what there is is probably wrong, no tiime to read it >.>

I've probably focused too much on Dej. The case I have on him is honestly pretty circumstantial, yet interesting, and I'm less convinced he's scum than I am of AndyTony.

But Andy case is good I guess. Apologies for the lame comments, Im only skimming.

Also, posting too much is protown.

It depends really. Anyway, I think it's interesting that every living player but them has been tiered into a post number level that's considered lurking.

Probably best to leave it at that. I honestly think it's more accurate to say posting too much is a null tell. I think activity and lurking runs the town/scum spectrum and isn't really indicative of alignment at all.

Dejkha's response to that point is really more interesting than the merit of the point itself in all honesty though.

[Zachrulez]

Also, I'm browsing through Phail in iso right now.

[Zachrulez]

A portion of Phail's post 5 that I found interesting.

AndyTony also said in that same post:

And I'm saying we should KEEP hiim around if he's scum, because the only thing we do know is that he's a weak player, and his weakness will either prove a poor towny, or a shitty scum that will lead us to his partner - - I don't want to lose any opportunities. If he's town, he doesn't die and town heeps higher numbers - if he's scum, we can milk him for all he's worth.

Scum should be lynched while you have the chance. The less scum there are, the quicker it is to winning. Leaving

any

known scum alive is anti-town because given our one lynch a day limit, it gives the scum an extra day. Furthermore, if there's only one scum, it pressures that person.

It interests me because AndyTony was arguing to keep a scummy, Anti-Town player alive.

Why would a townie want to do this?

... Why would scum want to do this?

[Zachrulez]

And accusing me of OMGUS is bullshit when YOU'RE the one casting a vote for me in response to my vote of you.

Wow, that's a giant load. I'd be voting you right now if it weren't for Phail not being here. In fact, seeing how scum could've quicklynched Phail when me and Andy were voting for him, I think the best bet is that Phail, Me, or Andy is scum. And since I have a good feeling about Andy, I think Phail's almost certainly scum.

You ignored the part where I explained that I had suspected AndyTony long before he started attacking me. In fact his attacks on me started once my suspicions of him started again.

I DID see it eventually though... but I guess you're goal is to constantly keep me distracted and replying to current events rather than actually be able to go back and read through the game.

There you go again blaming others for what you're not doing. If you need to read the thread, then go back and read it. We're not on a time limit.

Apparently we are, because I have been faulted for not reading it, even though I had read your posts below it without even realizing it was there at first, and that ignoring of the post seems to be one of the factors that contributed to him voting for me... so don't play that game with me.

I meant it exactly the way I said it.

Way to misrepresent scumbag.

I didn't know what you meant when I read it either, so it wasn't very clear.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about what I said.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 26&start=0

42 game posts

Completed game.

TOWN

Not only did that have a fairly quick first day, but I was NK'd the first night, smart one. Do your research correctly next time.

Good god, I feel almost positive that Zach is scum, but the probabilty of Phail being scum is higher.

That day lasted a month, and you were actually called out for lurking.

You spent a decent amount of time defending yourself from lurking accusations.

Sound familiar? It's one of your main points against me along with AndyTony.

Back to reading...

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

madeofphail - 1 - dejkha
AndyTony - 1 - Zachrulez
Zachrulez - 1 - AndyTony

dejkha - 0
Cephrir - 0
Grimmy - 0

Not Voting: Grimmy, Cephrir, madeofphail

With 6 players, it takes 4 to Lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, I've gotten a decent browse through of Phail's posts.

Now if AndyTony or Dejkha would summarize the case on Phail in something that doesn't consist of me having to look through 200+ of their posts that would be nice.

Otherwise I guess I'll start looking for it.

[Zachrulez]

726 AndyTony.

And I would hardly call this http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=681

This... http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=685

Or this

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=689

Flipping out.

The emotion I feel can probably be more accurately described as excitement in finding scum.

Anyway yeah.

Looking for a response to 726.

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 26&start=0

Starts at post 20 with you in Iso.

[Zachrulez]

You got excited? Can you list your case please, so I can share this excitement lol or is it back in Neverland with Robin Williams (Yes 90's movie fans...I went there)

726?
My case is where my vote is, Zach - and you can re-read the post (I believe it's in the first three from me at the beginning of this DAY) where I lay out the case connecting you two.

You're more scum than him as of yet.

Zach is scum because he won't list his case even though he already has in his AndyTony vote... but AT makes Zach look for his case of points against Phail.

I am absolutely blown away by this.

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 26&start=0

Starts at post 20 with you in Iso.

Voluntarily letting people know you're there with nothing to say isn't being "called out on lurking". I had nothing to say, so I didn't post. There's plenty to say in this game, so no one can use that same excuse.

I'll let the town be the jury on that.

[Zachrulez]

Well this is getting a bit out of hand posting wise. I'm gonna take a step back now.

Feel free to summarize that Phail case like I so nicely asked for in 726.

Or continue to bury that post in favor of continuing to slander me while pushing your quick lynch that you need for your scum victory.

Whichever you prefer.

[Zachrulez]

When I said step back, I meant till tomorrow.

Anyway, the case is on 689 AT.

You can confirm your vote saying there's no case all you want, but it's there.

And tomorrow will be the next time I'm posting from here now that I've clarified that...

[Zachrulez]

Shortened reason: For trying to distance away from his own hand in the lynching of the 3 townies in this game while attempting to hypocritically cast blame on me for being on the bandwagons as well.

1. I didn't try to distance myself - I reminded you that YOU were on them all - nt once did I say I wasn't (it didn't matter to me) - you're simply regurgitating what I'm sending your way - like the annoying "Are we there yet?" in the back seat of a car, you're more capable of annoying than generating your own thought

2.Oh wait...you only really had one reason....connected to me telling you that you were distancing...because you called me scum for supporting wagons that mislynched - - You pointed at me and said my hand in the wagons was scummy - I reminded you that your logic suggested you were in the same boat.

This is too complicated for you - No problem. The people that count can read it and understand.
--
That being said. Where's your evidence? Please tell me that wasn't the only post...I'm sure you're hiding evidence SOMEWHERE lol

What do you have? And does it hold it's ground next to what I've laid on you?

You're getting hung, man...

Brilliant performance. You know what's missing? Your concern for mislynching.

Let's go back to the millar lynch with your posts in iso.

Post 5: "I would feel a lot more comfortable if we use all the time we have for Day 1 and not risk mis-lynching..."

Post 6 and 7: You complain about Millar's whining and are considering a lynch of him on that basis. Que? Whining's not a scumtell.

Post 8: "Killing Millar will hurt the town." I wonder how you knew that?

Post 9: Oh everyone look at me. I'm making sure that I don't have a vote on Millar because I know his lynch will hurt the town!

Post 10: "As I see it, it would - -

I'm not saying it will certainly hurt the town so much as I feel very strongly that he's a towny (an eccentric one at that)

I don't like the idea of killing townies - a body count is needed and the more the better (for the town).

He's been a danger to himself and only himself. I'll consider him a threat when he wants to hurt the town, but until then, he can babble nonesense all he wants, I just choose to rise above it.

I think that wanting to hammer a weak player is harmful to the town (understandably unintentional at times, hence I only have an FoS on Guiseppe and no vote, it's only fair)"

Bolded the backtracking. Still worried about that pesky mislynching... but he's no longer certain Millar's lynch will hurt the town, he feels strongly that he's a towny. Oh the door for the transition has been creaked open.

Post 12: "

I think hammering this early in the game is irresponsible.

We should look for suspicion, not the obvious. The only obvious thing here is that millar plays poorly and is harmful to himself."

Again bolding for emphasis.

Post 13: Summarized, I'm not ready to mislynch so early.

Post 14: Nevermind...

Post 15: We are now at day 2 "

I felt strongly that he was town

, but enough was said in favor of him being voted that I felt the most progress would be through putting in that vote. Guiseppe and Phail had okay lines of thought."

You felt strongly he was town and yet you lynched him anyway. I got that. The funny thing here is that you think you have a justification.

"The only thing making me hold on to my wishful thinking was the much appreciated support/agreement with Dejkha."

Hmmmm...

"I kind of feel like shit, now. Should have stuck to my guns."

It's an act!

I just started noticing how long this was getting. So I'll break this up by day.

More later.

[Zachrulez]

And why is it always more later?

Because apparently unlike you, I do have a life outside of mafia.

I'm not responding to any of your rebuttals from this point until I finish what I started in 745.

I suspect your responses are only designed to distract me so that I can not finish and have that made into a point against me anyway.

[Zachrulez]

745 took me an hour to write which happens to be the length of my lunch break at work.

Without going into detail about the events of my life, I simply lack the time to post until sometime after 9pm central tonight.

Think what you want to about that AT.

[Zachrulez]

Following up on 745 (Remember that I'm reading AT in iso.)

Post 17: Quite relevant actually "I'm being rather specific.

And I think it more insulting when someone persecutes me without a foundation and ignores posts I put work into.

You should have read them"

See the problem is that I DO read your posts, and that you're not being persecuted at all. Everything I have pointed out to this point in 745 has been your very contradictory nature where you have flat out said you strongly felt Millar was town. A strong feeling that didn't stop you from lynching him.

Post 19: "So was me accepting the notion of him being Scum - when I voted him. Are you all up to speed, now?"

To be honest this was where the game lost me and everything went wrong, because there's nothing from AT's hammer post in 15 that leads me to believe he ever did this. In my mind, he's making this all up after the fact. From this point the posts really don't make sense, and instead of pushing AT harder I let myself get distracted.

Post 20: "Please read my earlier posts where I exercise the idea of him being a poor played scum that was signaling his doc suspicion to his scum buddy.

Please read further into the other six people who voted, and the posts they made and expected people to read and consider, politely (which I did). And enough was said that suggested Millar needed lynching.

Please read."

I read, and you know what? No one tried to blame anyone else for Millar's lynch like you just tried to do in this post.

Post 21: "this game has enough material for you to accurately quote and not paraphrase (poorly).

I thought he was town.

I thought he was scum.

I felt conflicted with both possibilities.

Enough was said by the others for me to consider and I voted him.

If I vote - It's because I think someone is scum.

And other people do matter,

Empking, you can't stomp your foot like a child and toss your head - - other people matter and we rely on them for information, evidence, food for thought, and help when you need to clarify.

"

Sorry AT, you're trying to make your vote sound decisive after the fact. You openly expressed reservations about Millar being town when you hammered. There's no way you can twist in that post that you honestly thought he was scum.

Also the bolded is there to establish a pattern with AndyTony. He has treated every lynch candidate like this thus far. (Millar, Emp, Zwet.) Offhand, he complained openly about Millar whining, there's this bolded portion from 21... and I'm just rounding the bend here to Zwet actually.

Post 38: Hey, that reminds me. Empking had it right. You did hammer someone you thought was town. I've even pointed out that you said you strongly felt he was town. (Millar)

Your attempts to justify otherwise are amusing. Yeah... it was a process my ass.

Post 40: You can repeat a lie over and over, but that doesn't make it true. YOUR OWN WORDS FROM DAY ONE contradict you.

Post 42: You know what, let's make this easier. Everytime you try to say you thought Millar was scum, I'm going to quote your hammering post. How about that?

Okay. You've both argued your points well,

and though I have my feelings toward lynching town

, I suppose it is the only way to know.

gah.... I've been working on an essay and it's after midnight lol I thought I'd be coming to this board with some happy thing to read upon that didn't rack my brain more!!!

Okay.

Vote: Millar13

Phail - thanks for your concise point of view - - Giuseppe, appreciate the clarifiction on the FoS I had earlier..

I'll be back when I can. Gonna nap.

Oh man... I have a feeling I'm going to be doing that a lot.

Post 53: Claims that the evidence against Emp is weak. He ends up voting to lynch him anyway despite this. Oh no! He might be town! There's that concern for mislynching again.

Post 60: I think this is another one that I should quote pretty frequently.

I'm saying that we have time until deadline - - if nothing develops by then, I'd go with a no lynch rather than a mislynch (as it stands) - that way we lose one instead of two.

Is that wrong?

I'm not saying we should stop scum hunting in the least bit if that's what you're worried about - we clear? lol

You should have been lynched SIMPLY for bringing up the idea of a no lynch. But you use the word mislynch as if you know we're about to do it. Yes, know, not think.

Post 61: More pro no-lynching stuff that we should have lynched you for.

Post 62: Oh no, we might lose two townies instead of one if we don't no lynch. Why is it that you seem so sure that we're going to mislynch? It's almost as if you actually know the alignment of the people who are leading in the bandwagon count. Why how is this possible? NO! You couldn't be scum could you?!

Post 63: All I get from this is AT calling for more scumhunting and voicing reservation about "utility" lynching, but leaving the door open to do it anyway.

Post 68: That was like... totally a utility lynch vote.

Post 70: Awwww, Cephrir makes him nervous. You know, Cephrir was CONVINCED by others that emp had to be the lynch... but that's your angle right? To blame everyone who was convinced by the shitty utility lynch logic that was put forth?

Post 72: "Emp hasn't given a crap about his life." And what is this supposed to be? A scumtell?

Post 75: YAY! I get to quote your hammer post again.

Okay. You've both argued your points well, a

nd though I have my feelings toward lynching town

, I suppose it is the only way to know.

gah.... I've been working on an essay and it's after midnight lol I thought I'd be coming to this board with some happy thing to read upon that didn't rack my brain more!!!

Okay.

Vote: Millar13

Phail - thanks for your concise point of view - - Giuseppe, appreciate the clarifiction on the FoS I had earlier..

I'll be back when I can. Gonna nap.

Not done yet, I'm just going to break this up here so that this post doesn't get too big.

[Zachrulez]

Continued from 767...

Post 81: More BS about the Millar lynch.

Okay. You've both argued your points well,

and though I have my feelings toward lynching town,

I suppose it is the only way to know.

gah.... I've been working on an essay and it's after midnight lol I thought I'd be coming to this board with some happy thing to read upon that didn't rack my brain more!!!

Okay.

Vote: Millar13

Phail - thanks for your concise point of view - - Giuseppe, appreciate the clarifiction on the FoS I had earlier..

I'll be back when I can. Gonna nap.

Post 84: This is fun...

Okay. You've both argued your points well, [/b]and though I have my feelings toward lynching town,[/b] I suppose it is the only way to know.

gah.... I've been working on an essay and it's after midnight lol I thought I'd be coming to this board with some happy thing to read upon that didn't rack my brain more!!!

Okay.

Vote: Millar13

Phail - thanks for your concise point of view - - Giuseppe, appreciate the clarifiction on the FoS I had earlier..

I'll be back when I can. Gonna nap.

Oh, he now strongly believes emp is scum. Sure you do...

Post 93: Well this is interesting. Zwet and Grimmy are scum huh?

Post 97: I think this is significant.

"Cheers, Zwet. Wish you'dve cared enough to have just cleared it all up."

If he's scum, he can't clear it up. I can't see this being anything but something scum would say to a townie. This is gloating.

Post 105: He's using the same kind of attack on me now.

Post 108: Is hilarious because Zwet wasn't scum.

Post 110: YES! First it was Zwet and Grimmy, Now it's me and Zwet! I appreciate the love.

Post 113: Ha. Accuses me of defending Zwet and lurking. See, when you pretend to be concerned about mislynching someone earlier in the game that's fine, but when I'm legitimately concerned about it later in the game and want to actually put a decent case together before I throw my vote on him, that's scummy. Man this is rich.

Post 114: An appeal to ignore any meta in Zwet's defense because he might actually get away with being scum in a game. Oh... that sounds like... AN APPEAL TO FEAR TO ME!

Post 122: Says he suspects me and Cephrir

Post 123: No wait... make that me and Phail. Nevermind that he made almost the exact same argument when he tried to connect me to confirmed townie Zwet.

Post 126: Remember when I pointed out in post 105 how he's using the same attack on me now as he did on Zwet earlier? Here it is...

Whoops moment? lol - - you can just

ask

, Zach - - No. I don't find a single thign scummy about Dej, I think at this point in the game he has come across very pro town to me.

And I think it's a little unfair to say "That guy isn't pointing a finger at himself! He must be guilty!" - -

if you want me to do scumhunting FOR you and against myself no less - this is the wrong game for you.

I'm making what I felt were relevent suggestions and just wanted some opinions.

I think this is a good place to wrap it up.

I think I've shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are nothing more than a scumbag.

Now all I have to do is go to your rebuttals, which have been equally ridiculous and in retrospect designed to do absolutely nothing but attempt to make so much shit up in order to get me so mad, that you bring me down to your level.

Sorry, didn't work. I've calmed down, and exposed you for the scumbag that you truly are.

Now... DIE SCUM!

[Zachrulez]

There's a lot of unfair statements coming from you saying "BS" to my posting and making unclear connections.

I never denied having difficulty deciding the best course of action when the time came to vote - - nobody has had an easy time with it on this board.

Well no, it really wasn't that difficult of a choice on day 1 with the information we had. As town you go with the information you have. As scum, you see benefit in distancing yourself from the lynch. You say difficulty... I say you didn't have difficulty at all. I say that you were pretending to have difficulty with the lynch because you were trying to APPEAR to be protown.

You also need to clarify your statements about me commenting on Millar whining - I don't know how it applies to anything at ALL - and I'm certain you can pull a quote off of everyone - including yourself - commenting on Emp and Zwet and Millar babbling nonesense/wasting our time.

You've done this countless times. You constantly say I'm unclear, but you don't ever cite specific examples of my lack of clarity, and you don't quote unclear statements for me to clarify. You DON'T want me to clarify. You want to lynch me for being "unclear."

Millar had wasted a post whining instead of defending himself - that's scummy, it's a gambit, check the wiki...

This is moot since Millar was town, but you're claiming he was using a scummy gambit. You haven't named the gambit, you haven't linked the gambit. You've just stated that it was as fact and are telling me to check the wiki cause you know you're right, and somehow me not being able to find it will prove you right. It doesn't.

You managed to squeeze a few quotations in the posts, but you've flooded them with
Post number ..... - "personal opinion, AT bs AT bs" - - it just seems like you're flipping out over little things.

You're whining about the format of my post.

Millar had wasted a post whining instead of defending himself - that's scummy, it's a gambit, check the wiki...

Your own words.

What is your case?? Give the case - and point by point, can you PLEASE attach it to a concrete piece of evidence? Otherwise, I'm afraid you're distracting all of us in desperation to get another lynch off the ground.

You just read my case friend... It doesn't cease to be a case just because you don't like said case.

Die scumbag?

Dej, Ceph, Phail, Grimmy - - you heard it. Zach says I'm a scumbag and should die...might as well fall into line?

Ah hahahahahahahaha!

No... it's not a matter of falling into line. It's a matter of following the facts.

I'm going to continue articulating my case on Zach and further build my case on Ceph instead of waste my time with loose babble and baseless accusations based on things that I REQUESTED we discuss (the Millar hammer) so that THIS VERY THING WOULDN'T HAPPEN - - I tried to clear this up because voila! Scum have pulled it out of there pocket and tried to use it. Luckily, a poor job.

You prove my case better than I ever could right here. You don't want to be held accountable for the Millar hammer. Undeniable fact.

Die scum!

[Zachrulez]

I don't like the idea of no lynch because...

1. The town loses a vote

2. There's a lower chance of a successful doc protect at night.

3. The scum will kill the person who's death is least likely to help town.

I actually did think very similarly along the lines of what you are thinking and decided against it for the above reasons.

Consequently, if we happen to finally get a successful doc protect, we get another lynch. This is true regardless of whether we lynch or not... and this event happening greatly increases our chances of winning the game.

[Zachrulez]

And why is it that you never clutched onto this idea until right now when Phail proposed it?

[Zachrulez]

Well I'm against no lynching for the reasons I've listed.

I'm also certain AndyTony is scum.

No lynching isn't going to change my mind.

[Zachrulez]

Let me break it down why not lynching is more beneficial:

1. The town loses a vote

If we vote wrong now, it won't matter because we'll have lost. The only way lynching now would help is if we lynch correct and there's a 1/3rd possibility of that happening and the odds aren't in our favor.

2/5 isn't that much better.

2. There's a lower chance of a successful doc protect at night.

If we no lynch, we don't want the doc to protect right because it would be as if nothing changed. It would be as if the day never ended. That's why a night kill would help. It narrows down the possibilities without losing us the game.

If we lynch scum today, and there's a successful doc protect at night. The doc can claim and clear a townie, and the remaining scum can't counterclaim. Our odds of winning dramatically increase.

I will concede that there are a lot of ifs to this scenario.

3. The scum will kill the person who's death is least likely to help town.

That would leave Grimmy or Cephir. That's fine with me because they may be scum and we can't know because they hardly ever post.[/quote]

I'm not big on suspecting lurkers as a policy, so I wouldn't personally consider it much of a help.

[Zachrulez]

Looks like we're at a standstill until Cephrir returns.

[Zachrulez]

Oh no you didn't...

[Zachrulez]

It wasn't very smart to claim at all, Phail. If you didn't claim and we no lynched, 3 things could've happened. Either you get NK'd, you live with a successful protect and claim so we can gain from that knowledge or you live with an unsuccessful protect and you claim narrowing down the scum choices for us.

Unfortunately your bad logic put us at less of an advantage if we no lynch. The point isn't that "there's no reason not to claim", but rather "there's no reason to claim". With you claiming, you made us lose some of the advantages we had. Because of that claim, we gain nothing, we only lose.

Which is why no lynching is no longer an optimal play in light of Phail's claim.

Coupled with the complication that he might be scum fake-claiming. I'm way more suspicious of him now than I was. There was absolutely no reason for him to claim like he did right there.

[Zachrulez]

We're definitely lynching today.

Looks like you lucked out Andy... you won't die... today ^ _ ^

Unvote

Now to re-read and try to figure out which claim I believe...

[Zachrulez]

Wow, that was unexpected. But I'm inclined to believe Cephirs counter-claim. Not only was Phails claim unreasoned and unnecessary, but he did so at the time a no lynch looked possible (contrary to what Andy believes, I'm pretty sure the majority thought a no lynch would be best).

Seems like a scum tactic to me: propose a town benefiting solution to our difficult position by suggesting a no lynch and then find a way out when it looks like it would actually happen. Like I said earlier in the day when Phail was at L-2, scum could've hammer for the win or they were one of the three involved with the wagon.

Vote:MadeofPhail

Well, I just took a look at Phail's newbie game, and he claims cop despite being a vanilla townie... so unfortunately I can see him claiming as stupidly as he just did.



This blows.

It's worse that none of his posts make any sense to me...

The biggest problem I have with Cephrir's claim is the fact that he's not dead. Someone called him as doc, which I would think would be enough for scum to try to kill him on... but if he was scum, this would never happen.

Anyway, there's probably not all that much to that, so I'll keep reading and see what more I can see.

Also for reference, I am feeling pretty damn sure that whoever is scum, is scum with AT.

[Zachrulez]

You'll have to excuse us if we didn't invest much thought into Millar's line of thought when it came to yelling out who he thought was doc only a handful of posts into day1!!! lol

*cough*

The biggest problem I have with Cephrir's claim is the fact that he's not dead. Someone called him as doc, which I would think would be enough for scum to try to kill him on... but if he was scum, this would never happen.

So what the hell was that response all about? Scum admitting they didn't kill Cephrir cause they didn't believe Millar actually had the right read?

[Zachrulez]

Right, but why would a townie come out and say that in response to something I said?

[Zachrulez]

To clarify* * *

Zach - first paragraph - - I'm suggesting you're trying to lock down A scumpartner to Phail - not Ceph - - the beef I have is your investment in Millar and his calling out of him being doc

How so?

How does me thinking you're scum have anything to do with the claiming that's going on between Phail and Ceph?

Obviously, one of them is scum, that doesn't mean you can't be.

Thus my thoughts at this moment are that you are probably paired with whoever the fake claiming doctor is.

And it's looking like that pair is you and Phail, mainly because of how opposed you and Cephrir have been, though admittedly, this could be distancing.

Obviously, under this theory... I have to admit that I was probably wrong about Dejkha, I have no problem doing that.

I've always believed more strongly that you were scum over him anyway... so I don't really see what the big deal is.

[Zachrulez]

Everything he has is dead, opportunistic, and opinionated - - he pulled nothing concrete on me, and you know full well that I spent many a headache clearing up the dispute over my voting pattern day1 AND gave ample time and a master post telling people to pipe up or ask me about it - - - Zach, only brought it up when he was against the wall. - - Phail writes in that formula I pointed out, Zach only mentions that it's "impossible to read" and confusing when it's convenient once again - - when he needs to distance himself and further incriminate Phail - - Why didn't Zach ask for clarification every time Phail was confusing or unclear?
--------------

Because that's what tends to happen when a player flies under the radar. They don't get noticed. I never asked him for clarification on anything cause he never really stood out in any of the action that was going on at any point in the game. There was always something else on center stage.

I can see now that he seems to be the source of a lot of confusion in this game, and obviously with his doc claim, he's no longer under the radar, he's on center stage. I'm not ignoring him anymore am I?

[Zachrulez]

It's saying things like that where I get put off, Zach - - You don't have to call me town, but quit calling me scum unless you can prove it. - - - the only thing any evidence you threw at me proved was that you were able to look at things a certain way and be suspicious (my "on the fencery") - There is not one piece of solid scumtell/evidence on me, and I find it pretty interesting that in light of us having a better chance at lynching scum TONIGHT - you're wasting no time trying to plant ideas of who to lynch TOMORROW to cover your ass - - I find it suspicious - - maybe worry about one scum at a time? you have enough trouble trying to MAKE me seem scum that you failed to truly find anything.

I was worried about one scum at a time when I was pushing for your lynch. It's not like I had any control over the fact that someone claimed doctor.

We're in Lylo. We haven't come close to scum. We're all guilty of poor lynching, but Zach - man, you're livin true to waht everyone pointed out at least once - - your logic is balls, man...

I doubt it. With the direction this game has gone, logic seems to have gone out the window a long time ago. But basically what it comes down to is this. You find me scummy for listening to you guys and caving to just about all the lynches you want. Now with the game on the line I want to think for myself, that's scummy? I certainly trust myself more in lylo then a bunch of people who could be scum...

You're once again bringing up/manufacturing evidence to your CONVENIENCE - - you brought up old, opinionated shit on me that was WAY in the past - - you only just NOW tell us you don't understand ANY of Phail's posts? Why didn't you call him out on it earlier??? Because ONCE-A-FUCKING-GAIN you don't do shit until you're scared in your little scum boots.

How is it to my convenience? I saw what I saw. Drew the conclusion that I drew, and ended up thinking you were scum. How exactly is that manufacturing anything? I am pointing out my interpretation of what is there. That is how mafia is played.

Phail isn't hard to read - - he has a FORMULA - - it isn't a bad one, it's just a rather BROAD formula. I have an earlier post that describes the formula, and what it reads as is - - sitting on the fence but making gut choices in voting.

I think Phail is scum.

Reasons:
--Phail sits on the fence with gut feeling votes and floods his long posts at times with repeated information and filler in an attempt to distract/confuse the town

Yeah, this seems to be the only explanation for his behavior.

--He uneccessarily claimed doc in the midst of us considering a NL

True.

--He spent the days observing Ceph as potential scum, yet chose TWO nights to consider him town? No thanks... Dej I would understand.

Yeah, that is strange.

Dej - - Post 678 - - Looks like this is falling into place?

Zach -

I think Zach might be scum with Phail.

Below is an example of Zach's poor logic

After this post, I think everyone should be voting for Emp...

Vote : Empking

The way I see it the post is Emp stating that he wasn't scum with Millar while implying that he's scum with someone else.

Zach puts a vote on Emp

Do we absolutely HAVE to lynch Emp today? I think a decent case can be made to lynching AndyTony instead. I am feeling more and more weary about him the more he posts.

He made this statement

with a vote on Emp

- contradicting himself and in the process, throwing a baseless statement against my life in the game without giving evidence. He has twice mentioned having suspicions he doesn't voice when he has them - - and he hasn't to this point cleared up why he said that to me.

Pablo didn't agree with Zach's logic at the time

zach

After this post, I think everyone should be voting for Emp...

Vote : Empking

The way I see it the post is Emp stating that he wasn't scum with Millar while implying that he's scum with someone else.

Awful, awful, awful logic capitilizing on a minimalist (and annoying) player. Complete leap of logic and a bad reason. [....]

Vote: Giuseppe
FoS: Zachrulez

After Pablo voiced a well sounded opinioin on Zach's logic...

There you go pushing that scum driven wagon again.

Your position is logically flawed, because as scum, you have every motivation to lead the town to believe that the wagon was in fact scum driven, so that they'll never call you on your distancing from townie lynches.

FOS: Pablo

That said, if you're hypothetically scum, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that your scumbuddy was on the wagon...

Zach throws what appears to be an OMGUS FoS on Pablo - - - He then makes a scum claim on him, and then in a totally seperate paragraph, tries to cover his ass by dubbing it "hypothetical" and says that a scumbuddy would be on the wagon.

To further comment on his logic. Zach is yes, still at the time of this post, on the wagon. And I couldn't agree more.

I think that Pablo is his potential partner

Frankly, I'm more inclined to agree with Zack. It did not say "If I was scum". It said,

If Millar was my scum buddy

Furthermore, the discrepancy in behavior between reacting to dejkha's scumtell versus empking's tempts me to

believe that emp and zwet are scum.

He agrees with Zach's vote on Emp over simple wordplay really, and further states suspicion on the very people that were mislynched in the order as well.

Phail has made extravegant cases based on "hypothetical" supposition that distracts at times and fills the space to keep him active, yet not always productive. He has not once to my knowledge, truly grilled Zach for any information (regardless of his earlier creeping no less). And that leads me to believe they are partners, who agreed on an order of mislynches.

To be fair - Phail also wanted to lynch Guiseppe - and Zach turned an OMGUS on Pablo in a defensive way.

All of the above are of course dead. (And I think in that order, too)

Anyway. Could be something, could be nothing.

There's still Grimmy, who's been lurking (partly due to a demanding work schedule, but none the less).

Dej, Ceph, what do you guys think? I'd like some more convo on this board!

-AA

I believe this case FULLY at this point. I think that Phail has been appropriately called out, and that you're the scumpartner, Zach.

How do we know that you didn't set all this up in night talk with Phail to manufacture a case against me?

If you're gonna throw burden of proof on me when I call you out and make a case against you, perhaps you'd at least like to hold yourself to the same standard.

There is no proof to shit. The entire goal of mafia is to misdirect.

You say it's obvious that I'm scum with Phail? How do we know that YOU aren't? How do we know that isn't exactly what you want the town to think as scum yourself?

How do we know that you didn't coordinate the death of Pablo Molinero on night 2 with Phail in order to implicate me the next day as you so extravagantly did. WHY WAIT UNTIL DAY 3 TO START POINTING THAT SHIT OUT?

You're the most ridiculous person I've ever played mafia with in my life. You attack me for not calling Phail out sooner, cause you'd apparently prefer that over me calling YOU out. Yet you don't call me out immediately on day 2 when I argue with Pablo. How is this not the biggest hypocritical turd ever?

You'll have to excuse us if we didn't invest much thought into Millar's line of thought when it came to yelling out who he thought was doc only a handful of posts into day1!!! lol

Covered this.

You're getting nervous and desperate to secure yourself for tomorrow when we're done lynching Phail.

Phail - well played.
Zach - I think the jig is up!

Dej - - It makes sense and was spotted early on (not made up of old forgotten things that are twisted, opinionated, or opportunistic....like Zach's cases...)

Confirm Vote: MadeOfPhail

Dej, if I get killed tonight - know my vote would have gone to Zach

Well I guess the game won't be over when Phail is lynched, since you're so sure that there will be a tomorrow for me to worry about getting lynched in.

By the way, scum don't kill the people they think they can lynch. This is where you fail hard.

And it's why you are scum.

[Zachrulez]

I think you're terrified about the hunt for scum 2 tomorrow

And I would have no reason to be if I was the leading candidate for a lylo lynch as town?

Yeah, I know this is supposed to mean that I'm afraid of the hunt for scum 2 because I am scum, but I couldn't resist.

[Zachrulez]

There is no reason for a NL if there is a concrete counterclaim.

I was thinking of why Phail would make an obvious doc slip and then after a pattern of defending newbiness, breaking from that, claiming town, breaking from that - with a cod claim - he's self promoting lol - but the reason I think he's done it is :
Phail wants the no lynch so he can get a kill in the night, he gets lynched the next day (being alive, thus proving he's scum and making us even with the scum, who then kill us in the night to follow as there are TWO)

And since that plan depends on the No Lynch, I reckon he wants to eliminate other people's suspicions by clearing himself with an attempt at a claim (making people friendly with the no lynch idea) Why claim? Clear himself, get the no lynch, win the game by the next night with his partner since Phail would be the sure lynch of the next day - - - why not fear a counterclaim? Because he said it himself, he wants to rattle the cage, he figures he'll get a WIN WIN situation! - Mislynch the counterclaim, or get his no lynch and win.

---------------------------------------------

Phail claims he protected Ceph twice

he was a lurker the whole game, you've accused him (with us) multiple times and have never truly thought "He must be lurking because he's town" - yet you protected him twice? Because he's high priority? You're the one that dubbed who was what priority, we didn't agree - - I think you're trying to protect your partner -

Think about it. Phail sees the no lynch isn't getting off the ground.

Scum claims - - Scum counterclaims - - One get's lynched, the other has immunity and kills us all - - for some bizarre reason, there's a No Lynch still, and we all die anyhow when no doctor dies.

Unvote

Phail, your doc slip was fake, I called you out, you claimed.

You said you protected Ceph twice - -

this makes no sense

- please clarify

I think they're both scum

That certainly undermines all the arguments you made against me up to this point doesn't it?

[Zachrulez]

Ah fuck it.

Vote: MadeofPhail

There's really no reason to lynch Cephrir over Phail the more I think about it.

I've either just lost the game outright for the town, or we're going to have one more day to figure this out.

I guess we'll see what happens...

[Zachrulez]

The doc claim really made no sense. He gave Cephrir the perfect opening.

As people look back, they will be able to tell that I wasn't so sure about Cephrir's counterclaim, but I really lacked a reason to vote him over Phail.

I also doubt anyone would have listened to me had I actually gone against Ceph. Just kinda the way I felt all game about the way all my ideas were received.

I knew AT was scum though... but apparently I was the only one that felt that way. :s

What a mess this game was...

[Zachrulez]

It's a good thing you didn't counter. I would have been screaming even louder for your lynch, and the whole thing could have blown up in your face.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, you're being way too hard on yourself Phail.

The claim was a mistake, but in the end that's all it was.

If you look through my play, you'll see I made my share too. Backing off of AT on day 2 was one of them.

You just have to do the best you can to learn from them.

[Zachrulez]

Someone was obviously playing as an alt.