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Post Post #550 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:32 am

Post by dejkha »

I was already suspicious of MoP for possibly framing Giuseppe, but I find that this backs it up a bit.

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madeofphail - 1 - dejkha
dejkha - 1 - zwetchenwasser

Cephrir - 0
AndyTony - 0
Giuseppe - 0
Grimmy - 0
zwetschenwasser - 0
Zachrulez - 0

Not Voting: Cephrir, Grimmy, Giuseppe, Zachrulez, AndyTony, madeofphail

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Post Post #551 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:36 am

Post by AndyTony »

Why didn't you mention the suspicion when you had it? (if you did, I just nee it pointed out, is all) - - it would otherwise seem like a scum tactic - - not mention the suspicion to keep focus on your target and then bring it up when Mop is next in line.

and WHERE is Grimmy? He stopped posting ages back - do we need a replacement, or is he cackling at us?
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Post Post #552 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:39 am

Post by dejkha »

dejkha wrote:
Grimmy wrote: I disagree.

I know from playing with him in other games that he is a very good player.

I have also seen where the scum would target one townie in order to make another townie look guilty.

fos: Phail


I suspect that is what you are doing if you are really scum.
not convinced, but suspicious.

Grimmy
Phail was my initial suspect at the end of day one, but I've since seen more suspicious activity from Giuseppe. If Giuseppe flips towns, then I agree that Phail may have done what you described.
Now, I know Giuseppe hasn't flipped town, but I feel confident that he is.
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Post Post #553 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:58 am

Post by Zachrulez »

zwetschenwasser wrote:
Pablo Molinero wrote:Dammit! Pull this win out, town. Do it for the Pablo!
If you weren't dead, this would be a scumtell.
Vote: dejkha
Do you have an explanation for this vote?
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Post Post #554 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:06 am

Post by zwetschenwasser »

dej has been completely useless and unhelpful and nasty.
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Post Post #555 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:14 am

Post by dejkha »

That's a giant load. The first two anyway. I understand if you wanna get rid of the nasty man.
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Post Post #556 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:18 am

Post by zwetschenwasser »

:shock:
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Post Post #557 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:50 am

Post by AndyTony »

There was a lot of discussion leading up to Emp's demise and I was in full support of him going - however, Zwet: Why would you make a statement upon the hammering to suggest it was a utility lynch? Why did you not present or comment on any cases and fail to have a case on Dej?

Can you elaborate on how he strikes you as useless and unhelpful? Or worse than you for that matter?

I'm not sure if it has to be in bold or not but:
MOD - Can we get a prod to Grimmy?
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Post Post #558 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:57 am

Post by Kublai Khan »

AndyTony wrote:I'm not sure if it has to be in bold or not but:
MOD - Can we get a prod to Grimmy?
Yes, mod questions should be bolded. The day just started. I'll give Grimmy until Monday to post before I start prodding him.
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Post Post #559 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:59 am

Post by AndyTony »

Cheers!
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Post Post #560 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:38 am

Post by Cephrir »

zwetschenwasser wrote:dej has been completely useless and unhelpful and nasty.
Vote: zwet


More of a placeholder than anything, but... really?

Relevant post later.
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Post Post #561 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:40 am

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[quote="dejkha
Madeofphail wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, you think the fact that I posted what I thought was substantial evidence makes me scum?
You believe that what I did was too specific for evidence? You believe that I looked too in-depth to make an argument?


If this is so, it sounds like the "too townie argument"?
Yeah, pretty much
.It seems so deep that no one else would've noticed it, IMO. I just looked back at it and realized that I don't think most of it was about Giuseppe either. It pretty much concentrated on Rofl and Emp and
some
Giuseppe at the end. Or at least, thats what I think, because for some reason you didn't label who you're quoting. So at this point it's also hard to see why that seemed like a lot of evidence. One things I'm almost positive about is if you or Giuseppe is scum, the other isn't. You pushed hard on him, so I'd excluded you both as scumbuddies.

Due to the specificness of that post, I think Grimmy's statement about it is true in that you would try to frame him like that. Which may explain why you were on and off with you vote on Giuseppe. If he flipped town, you didn't want to be on the wagon for that reason.
[/quote]
The Rofl post's quotes has nothing but rofl's quotes.

In case you do not remember, I stand by my statement in post 347:
madeofphail wrote: I put a vote on Giuseppe because Rofl was killed, and the people he was gunning for were emp, and giuseppe. Therefore, I believe that the mafia killed him to eliminate accusations against them. I now realize that what I am implying is that the mafia are stupid, and if they were giuseppe and/or empking, they would only be putting more suspicion on themselves, and this is not what they would do. Therefore, my post which "justified" voting for giuseppe is invalid proof. I did not think that far through. My error in judgement is directing negative attention to me.

If I understand correctly. you believe that I am scum trying to misdirect the town into voting giuseppe because If I was scum, I killed rofl and am currently trying to frame giuseppe. I made an error in judgement, which is my no means excusable. My first error in judgement contributed to a mislynch, and I now fear that my judgement in this day may cause yet another mislynch. I do not want a mislynch, and since my reasoning was insufficient there is no reason for me to persist my vote.

Unvote
[hypothetical] I am scum. I am trying to frame giuseppe, but not be on the wagon.[/hypothetical]

Now tell me, Why would I be on or off? If I didnt want to be on the wagon, why get on it at any time if I was sure a wagon was going to form? I made my votes based on times when his guilt seemed to wax or wane. Why would a townie not follow this action? If a person is pretty much clear of suspicion, why want them dead? If a person is scummy, we want them dead.

Furthermore, please forgive me for showing emotion here:
I should slap you upside the head for using the "too townie" argument to find scum. That claim suggests that by being helpful, and trying to scumhunt, that person is scum. Now, tell me which part of that argument makes sense. If I was trying to lead the town, that would be somehting completely different
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Post Post #562 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:08 am

Post by AndyTony »

Vote:Zwet

----------------------------------
zwetschenwasser wrote:
Pablo Molinero wrote:Dammit! Pull this win out, town. Do it for the Pablo!
If you weren't dead, this would be a scumtell.
Vote: dejkha
I'm not happy with your rationalization of pointing out scumminess in a dead towny before your vote, and having to be ASKED for an explanation and not offer it with the vote.

The explanation being
zwetschenwasser wrote:dej has been completely useless and unhelpful and nasty.
I'm worried you're scum and think that you can take advantage of any tendency we have in cases going thinner and thinner until they are seemingly utility
zwetschenwasser wrote:
Vote: Empking
And so dies uselessness...
You hardly contribute to the cases, and at the very last moment, make it seem like an agreed utility lynch based on how useless someone is? -- and because we don't argue with you over perverting our lynch, you think it's okay to set up another person for the same reason - - what you call uselessness.

Smells like scum to me. Clean up your vote/defend yourself (or keep up the "master of the 5 word post" game and let your scumbuddy slip up for us)
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Post Post #563 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:16 am

Post by dejkha »

madeofphail wrote: [hypothetical] I am scum. I am trying to frame giuseppe, but not be on the wagon.[/hypothetical]

Now tell me, Why would I be on or off? If I didnt want to be on the wagon, why get on it at any time if I was sure a wagon was going to form? I made my votes based on times when his guilt seemed to wax or wane. Why would a townie not follow this action? If a person is pretty much clear of suspicion, why want them dead? If a person is scummy, we want them dead.

Furthermore, please forgive me for showing emotion here:
I should slap you upside the head for using the "too townie" argument to find scum. That claim suggests that by being helpful, and trying to scumhunt, that person is scum. Now, tell me which part of that argument makes sense. If I was trying to lead the town, that would be somehting completely different
Obviously if you're gonna try and frame him, you'll get on his wagon. You don't bring up a case that can appear to be a big one and then not ever vote. That alone makes you look bad. That's why I think it looked weird that you were on and off his wagon. You voted him, unvoted, voted him again and unvoted. Not everything is as simple as "who's scumhunting and who's not". I'm taking the liberty of looking deeper than that.

This isn't the "too townie" argument. This is the "clever scum" argument.

Careful with the Zwet wagon everyone. I want to make sure Grimmy says something before the day is over.
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Post Post #564 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:23 am

Post by AndyTony »

Fair -

Unvote


FoS - Zwet


I'm letting it hang on how Grimmy responds and accounts for doing virtually nothing on day 2 and being completely out of the loop, and having only voted himself.

Far as I'm concerned - there are two scum, and two people I'm not impressed with.

I'm comfortable hunting on them.
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Post Post #565 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:55 am

Post by zwetschenwasser »

It was actually a test vote to see what dej responded to. He admitted to nastiness.
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Post Post #566 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:57 am

Post by AndyTony »

If that were true, why not apply what you were testing to the actual vote? It strikes me as backtracking and brushing aside the fact that you felt it was necessary to vote someone just to see if they would admit to a third of your unsupported statements against them.

Could have just asked/proven/stated - a vote seems like a more bold decision.
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Post Post #567 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:58 am

Post by AndyTony »

the first sentence is to say, why vote without listing what you were "testing" - - why wait a long while before giving the reasons? It seems like you were just making this up as you went along and you're just lookin to start an early wagon
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Post Post #568 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:00 am

Post by zwetschenwasser »

You don't know me very well, do you. That's not how I roll...
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Post Post #569 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:05 am

Post by Zachrulez »

Zwet's play seems very unusual for him. At least to me. Backpedaling is very unlike him from what I've come to know of his town meta.
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Post Post #570 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:05 am

Post by AndyTony »

Then how is it that you roll? Am I supposed to disregard what normally looks like scummy behavior because you've developed an identity on this site for short posting that doesn't always help us?

If you're not making this up as you go along, and tryin to back track - -

Address my concerns in the post where I voted you - fully - and further explain why you say you were voting him as a test, yet took five hours to actually conduct it. You threw the vote at him to rattle the cage and cross your finers for a wagon - and had bs reasons to do it, and you're passing it off as a TEST?

Are you trying to say you were incapable of telling him you thought he was nasty without voting him?

I think your excuses are thin and unconvincing as of yet...
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Post Post #571 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:20 am

Post by zwetschenwasser »

Deal with it. They're true.
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Post Post #572 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:54 am

Post by madeofphail »

dejkha wrote: Obviously if you're gonna try and frame him, you'll get on his wagon.
You don't bring up a case that can appear to be a big one and then not ever vote.
That alone makes you look bad. That's why I think it looked weird that you were on and off his wagon. You voted him, unvoted, voted him again and unvoted. Not everything is as simple as "who's scumhunting and who's not". I'm taking the liberty of looking deeper than that.
If you look at the post in question (post 277) I said in my last paragraph:
madeofphail wrote:Rofl was on to something, I believe that this was the reason that the scum killed him. This, along with Dejkha's massive post, seems like a good enough reason to think that giuseppe is scum.
Vote: Giuseppe
I did vote when I brought up the case, please do not try to bring false evidence to light against me. That accusation that I brought up a case and then did not vote has no base in reality.

I voted as I deemed necessary, and if you have an objection to that I believe that I answered that already. I posted:
made of phail in post 347 wrote:I put a vote on Giuseppe because Rofl was killed, and the people he was gunning for were emp, and giuseppe. Therefore, I believe that the mafia killed him to eliminate accusations against them. I now realize that what I am implying is that the mafia are stupid, and if they were giuseppe and/or empking, they would only be putting more suspicion on themselves, and this is not what they would do. Therefore, my post which "justified" voting for giuseppe is invalid proof. I did not think that far through. My error in judgement is directing negative attention to me.

If I understand correctly. you believe that I am scum trying to misdirect the town into voting giuseppe because If I was scum, I killed rofl and am currently trying to frame giuseppe. I made an error in judgement, which is my no means excusable. My first error in judgement contributed to a mislynch, and I now fear that my judgement in this day may cause yet another mislynch. I do not want a mislynch, and since my reasoning was insufficient there is no reason for me to persist my vote.

Unvote
Allow me to elaborate if you do not understand,as It appears that my language is too murky:

My original proof was that he was seemingly the name that the victim wrote in blood, and that was deemed illogical. With my basis for accusation gone, I saw it no longer fit to vote someone who was significantly closer to innocence in my eyes. Why would anyone vote for someone that they had little reason to accuse?

Moving on, as the posting proceeded, evidence seemed to pile upon giuseppe. Restating evidence already posted against someone is redundant, which was one of the things that provoked hostility towards giuseppe. I did not see fit to restate evidence that I agreed with.

The final unvote on giuseppe was proceeded by this sentence:
madeofphail in post 467 wrote:As far as the giuseppe conversation goes, I apologize for not giving proper consideration to your defense. With your defense clearly stated, My suspicions upon you have been reduced to a point where I do not see lynching you as prudent. As such:
Unvote
again, why vote someone who has accurately defended themselves and cleared them of suspicion for the most part? If I am not mistaken you also unvoted him when he finally made his big defense post. Upon recollection, the only two people voting him besides me where dejkha and AndyTony. Dejkha and AndyTony
BOTH
rescinded their vote on giuseppe after his defense post.


In short
, the first vote was through my own reasoning, my first unvote was when my reasoning was disproved. My second vote was because evidence was piling up, and the accused was not performing a strong defense. I saw him as scummy, and to restate points that were already stated that I believed in was redundant, so I voted. After the accused accurately defended himself, I saw fit to remove my vote.

Any questions? Any further accusations? If so, I would be delighted to answer your questions and help the town make an accurate discision.
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Post Post #573 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:19 pm

Post by dejkha »

madeofphail wrote:I did vote when I brought up the case, please do not try to bring false evidence to light against me. That accusation that I brought up a case and then did not vote has no base in reality.
It was a response to your hypothetical. I didn't bring in any false information without you allowing me to do so.

As for the rest. I just think the on/off voting patterns like that are scummy (and I haven't turned a blind eye to Andy Tony's either) and I can't give a motivation for why scum you would do that, because I'm not you. My vote on you is mostly riding on a possible framing and I'm fine with my vote for that reason.
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Post Post #574 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:45 pm

Post by AndyTony »

dejkha wrote: As for the rest. I just think the on/off voting patterns like that are scummy (and I haven't turned a blind eye to Andy Tony's either)
Remember he's saying we
both
pulled off after that big defense post - - and I don't believe there was ever a change in vote pattern without me specifically saying why - I think the reason is chief, Dej - what you're saying would make sense, but I think it applies to someone who's following the wagons like stock markets rather than explaining their actions.
zwetschenwasser wrote:Deal with it. They're true.
I'm explaining that my only way to deal with it is to vote you on finding it scummy, Zwet - I understand your attention span is shorter than your posts and don't want to burden you, but until you can illustrate your reasoning behind what I regarded as scummy

Vote: Zwet


Far as I'm concerned, talking to Grimmy is a matter of finding out if he's your partner. No reason to take a vote off one scum just because we all remember there's another.

Cheers, Zwet. Wish you'dve cared enough to have just cleared it all up.
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