Open 124 (2:10 Bugs Bunny -- GAME OVER) before 761

[AndyTony]

Zach strikes me as potentially being Zwet's scum partner

I think a decent case can be made to lynching AndyTony instead. I am feeling more and more weary about him the more he posts.

He randomly tried to point a finger at me without evidence. The above quote is part of a post where he sates that he didn't believe Emp should be lynched.

He seemed to have forgotten that he himself had a vote on Emp at the time, Emp was at L-1, and I was NOT the only person pushing for a hammer. I think it was a scum tactic to aid the wagon yet be able to say later "Hey! A part of me knew the guy was innocent, I'm not mailicious!"
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Then Pablo points out the flaws in Zach's logic,

zach

After this post, I think everyone should be voting for Emp...

Vote : Empking

The way I see it the post is Emp stating that he wasn't scum with Millar while implying that he's scum with someone else.

Awful, awful, awful logic capitilizing on a minimalist (and annoying) player. Complete leap of logic and a bad reason.

Vote: Giuseppe
FoS: Zachrulez

The above was fair and understandable, yet...

There you go pushing that scum driven wagon again.

Your position is logically flawed,

because as scum, you have every motivation to lead the town to believe that the wagon was in fact scum driven, so that they'll never call you on your distancing from townie lynches.

FOS: Pablo

That said, if you're hypothetically scum, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that your scumbuddy was on the wagon... and really, what reason would you have to worry about him getting lynched? I mean, you're the one telling us it's scum driven, and

you're the one who will tell us who to suspect right?

Even if we don't listen to you, it's still a minimal risk, and validates your theory even if we did manage to hypothetically hit your scumbuddy...

Zach has flawed and slightly hypocritical logic once more in what I feel is an OMGUS FoS on Pablo (who I might point out dies later in the night).
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Zach hopped on the Emp wagon - - got pissed at me who was ALSO on the wagon and said I should be lynched (didn't elaborate) - - then was inquired by Pablo, to whom Zach calls scum (once again doesn't elaborate) and Pablo later dies in the night.

I think Zwet's buddy might be Zach

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

zwetschenwasser - 2 - Cephrir, AndyTony

madeofphail - 1 - dejkha
dejkha - 1 - zwetchenwasser

Cephrir - 0
AndyTony - 0
Giuseppe - 0
Grimmy - 0
Zachrulez - 0

Not Voting: Grimmy, Giuseppe, Zachrulez, madeofphail

With 8 players, it takes 5 to Lynch.

[AndyTony]

EBWOP - - Zach says the final quoted portion TO Pablo

[Zachrulez]

Zach strikes me as potentially being Zwet's scum partner

WHAT?!

I think a decent case can be made to lynching AndyTony instead. I am feeling more and more weary about him the more he posts.

He randomly tried to point a finger at me without evidence. The above quote is part of a post where he sates that he didn't believe Emp should be lynched.

I wasn't really sure about his lynch. To be quite honest, I kinda went with the crowd on that lynch, and that post I attacked him for was my excuse for voting him to go along with the crowd. He was not my first choice for a lynch, but my posts were generally being ignored and buried 1-2 pages deep and forgotten in a matter of hours. I've been classified a lurker. I was pretty close to the point of not caring at that point in the game.

I regret not pushing other leads harder. Have to live with the Emp lynch now I guess.

He seemed to have forgotten that he himself had a vote on Emp at the time, Emp was at L-1, and I was NOT the only person pushing for a hammer. I think it was a scum tactic to aid the wagon yet be able to say later "Hey! A part of me knew the guy was innocent, I'm not mailicious!"

Well yeah, but I made no real active effort to derail the lynch for bogus reasons or no reason whatsoever, and I haven't made any effort to blame anyone for the lynch. (Which is the usual follow through for scum.)
--------

Then Pablo points out the flaws in Zach's logic,

After this post, I think everyone should be voting for Emp...

Vote : Empking

The way I see it the post is Emp stating that he wasn't scum with Millar while implying that he's scum with someone else.

Awful, awful, awful logic capitilizing on a minimalist (and annoying) player. Complete leap of logic and a bad reason.

Vote: Giuseppe
FoS: Zachrulez

The above was fair and understandable, yet...

There you go pushing that scum driven wagon again.

Your position is logically flawed,

because as scum, you have every motivation to lead the town to believe that the wagon was in fact scum driven, so that they'll never call you on your distancing from townie lynches.

FOS: Pablo

That said, if you're hypothetically scum, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that your scumbuddy was on the wagon... and really, what reason would you have to worry about him getting lynched? I mean, you're the one telling us it's scum driven, and

you're the one who will tell us who to suspect right?

Even if we don't listen to you, it's still a minimal risk, and validates your theory even if we did manage to hypothetically hit your scumbuddy...

Zach has flawed and slightly hypocritical logic once more in what I feel is an OMGUS FoS on Pablo (who I might point out dies later in the night).
----------------------
Zach hopped on the Emp wagon - - got pissed at me who was ALSO on the wagon and said I should be lynched (didn't elaborate) - - then was inquired by Pablo, to whom Zach calls scum (once again doesn't elaborate) and Pablo later dies in the night.

I think Zwet's buddy might be Zach

Hypocritical how?

I never got a chance to elaborate cause moron Zwet dropped the hammer... oh yeah, I guess that makes him my buddy.

Oh I love these hammers that cut off discussion before I have a chance to make my case or unvote, or explain anything... and now apparently it's damning evidence that I'm scum with Zwet.

Whatever.

Also in rebuttal to my post against Pablo. You don't really understand the term

Hypothetical

do you?

[AndyTony]

I wasn't really sure about his lynch. To be quite honest, I kinda went with the crowd on that lynch

That's what I'm saying - If you were unsure, why not voice more on it and pull him off L-1? You're complaining about a hammer ending your line of thoughts and magically clearing your suspicions the next day? You ARE allowed to voice suspicions the next day, you know -and you could have bought your OWN time by taking him off L-1

He seemed to have forgotten that he himself had a vote on Emp at the time, Emp was at L-1, and I was NOT the only person pushing for a hammer.

Well yeah, but I made no real active effort to derail the lynch for bogus reasons or no reason whatsoever

Then why turn attention away from a wagon we were both on, and say I would be the best lynch without giving any reasons?

Hypocritical how?

I never got a chance to elaborate cause moron Zwet dropped the hammer... oh yeah, I guess that makes him my buddy.

Oh I love these hammers that cut off discussion before I have a chance to make my case or unvote, or explain anything... and now apparently it's damning evidence that I'm scum with Zwet.

Nobody told you to keep your vote. You could have bought yourself more time.

You're hypocritical because you defend having a statement about poor logic WITH poor logic.

Are you suggesting that all of yoru thoughts and suspicions and seemingly non-existent evidence goes away after a hammer and the next day you drop it?

[AndyTony]

You've also defended Zwet's reasoning, and later admitted that he's playing different than you know (and in the very way I said he was - - making bs up as he goes along and acting scummy) yet haven't voted him or even FoS'd him - - nor have you yourself questioned him.

Are you looking out for him? Or do you really think he's an "idiot" who doesn't deserve your logic applied to him? Why are you not hunting in general let alone someone who is topical over the last couple pages?

Are you only planning on jumping in to defend and lurk the rest of the day out?

[Zachrulez]

You do realize that if we mislynch today and there's no doc protect, tomorrow is potentially lylo right?

Zwet's difficult to read and often makes NO sense as town, and is generally frustrating to play with.

But to hell with that, just lynch him right? I mean why not? We've already lynched Emp and Millar!

[Zachrulez]

I wasn't really sure about his lynch. To be quite honest, I kinda went with the crowd on that lynch

That's what I'm saying - If you were unsure, why not voice more on it and pull him off L-1? You're complaining about a hammer ending your line of thoughts and magically clearing your suspicions the next day? You ARE allowed to voice suspicions the next day, you know -and you could have bought your OWN time by taking him off L-1

Yeah, I was considering doing exactly that when Zwet hammered... I hate this game.

He seemed to have forgotten that he himself had a vote on Emp at the time, Emp was at L-1, and I was NOT the only person pushing for a hammer.

Well yeah, but I made no real active effort to derail the lynch for bogus reasons or no reason whatsoever

Then why turn attention away from a wagon we were both on, and say I would be the best lynch without giving any reasons?

Like I said, I never got a chance to explain. I will... eventually, but right now I hate this game and can't be bothered to do the analysis. Once I get around to doing my analysis on you, I am going to try to analyze everyone else in the game as well... because you know, lylo doesn't really appeal to me.

Hypocritical how?

I never got a chance to elaborate cause moron Zwet dropped the hammer... oh yeah, I guess that makes him my buddy.

Oh I love these hammers that cut off discussion before I have a chance to make my case or unvote, or explain anything... and now apparently it's damning evidence that I'm scum with Zwet.

Nobody told you to keep your vote. You could have bought yourself more time.

You're hypocritical because you defend having a statement about poor logic WITH poor logic.

Are you suggesting that all of yoru thoughts and suspicions and seemingly non-existent evidence goes away after a hammer and the next day you drop it?

Not dropping it. I will explain my suspicions, do analysis, and help the town as best as I can. Like I said, I hate this game, and am getting quickly fed up with the one liner back and forths that are 10-20 posts long that don't motivate me to read the few content posts within the fighting that doesn't help anything at all. Everytime I make an effort to try to understand what is going on, there's a whole new barrage of posts to go through. It's very frustrating. (I do have other games that don't even come CLOSE to this pace.)

I'm constantly behind trying to catch up. In order to do so I will need to set aside a LOT of time to do a LOT of analysis.

All I've asked is to be given the time to do all this.

It's up to you guys I guess. You can let me try to make my own kind of sense about this game so far...

Or you can just keep lynching.

[AndyTony]

I admire the passion, but it seems to be firing up with Zwet which only feeds my concern.

Take your time, but know that you've had it in the past as well as the power to make time for yourself by taking that vote of Emp.
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I can understand your frustration with this game, but understand my own frustration when a player like Zwet works through numerous games, building a meta on himself that will ultimately serve him (as it is now) as an immunity card

I don't think we should give into his immunity (which he's built nicely with a meta of being a shitty player)

How stupid would we feel if we ignore his current scumminess over that?

[Zachrulez]

I admire the passion, but it seems to be firing up with Zwet which only feeds my concern.

Take your time, but know that you've had it in the past as well as the power to make time for yourself by taking that vote of Emp.
-----------------------------------

I can understand your frustration with this game, but understand my own frustration when a player like Zwet works through numerous games, building a meta on himself that will ultimately serve him (as it is now) as an immunity card

I don't think we should give into his immunity (which he's built nicely with a meta of being a shitty player)

How stupid would we feel if we ignore his current scumminess over that?

I'm not saying that we should ignore Zwet's behavior. I'm just saying we shouldn't quickly condemn him as scum and lynch him. I personally think he requires analysis, a lot of analysis. It is also possible to figure out what he's thinking if you push the right buttons and ask the right questions (though admittedly frustrating.)

I don't want to lynch him on the same basis we lynched Millar and Emp, mainly because of the results that those lynches yielded. I want to do a full analysis, and feel relatively confident about casting a vote on him before I actually do it.

I also want to try to get a analysis on everyone else. We don't want to be giving players free passes for overlooked behavior at this stage in the game.

[AndyTony]

We're always open to new information, but I think the right buttons on Zwet would be L-2.

It's danger for him and he'll be under pressure to defend and clear up things - - and he won't be risked at L-1 for a quickhammer like you hate. I agree.

[Grimmy]

If you'd care to respond to what I've already said on that subject, feel free.

I will be looking into it. thanks for the heads up

Also, I have no idea how you can possibly agree that dej is useless. He's like the most active and useful player in the game.

I DISAGREED that Dej was useless. I only agreed that he was nasty about it.

Grimmy

[AndyTony]

@Grimmy - I understand you being away on weekends and the timing of nights and lynching being sporadic, but can you please explain your activity? We would dub it as lurking, but with so few posts and even fewer relevent posts (outside of joking, that is) - there hasn't been a lot of scum hunting from you. When you find time to get back to Ceph, could you clear that up please?

[Zachrulez]

I can understand your frustration with this game, but understand my own frustration when a player like Zwet works through numerous games, building a meta on himself that will ultimately serve him (as it is now) as an immunity card

I don't think we should give into his immunity (which he's built nicely with a meta of being a shitty player)

How stupid would we feel if we ignore his current scumminess over that?[/quote]

I happen to have a few completed games that could be useful in helping us determine whether Zwet is being more consistant with the way he's playing as town or as scum.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0 (Zwet is scum in this game.)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0 (Zwet is town here.)

The thing I'm looking to do is read Zwet in isolation in both of those games, read him in isolation here, and try to determine whether his play is more consistent with town or scum.

I have a little bit of time to do that now. (Unlikely to finish though.)

But I thought it might be helpful to present it to everyone in order to help people be able to get a better read on Zwet. (Mainly cause I'm interested in lynching him for doing actions that are scummy by his own standards, and not just as a utility lynch.)

So yeah, I'm off to read now.

[Grimmy]

@Grimmy - I understand you being away on weekends and the timing of nights and lynching being sporadic, but can you please explain your activity? We would dub it as lurking, but with so few posts and even fewer relevent posts (outside of joking, that is) - there hasn't been a lot of scum hunting from you. When you find time to get back to Ceph, could you clear that up please?

quick check in to explain

I work in a place where im in press every other week, so my free time wanes every week or so. when I stay late, i try to check this site just to give me abreak from trying to figure out why such and such stock has suddenly turned from gold to poop and if it will recover.

Grimmy
reporting to you from NYC inthe superman building

[AndyTony]

I appreciate you taking the time to do that.

My feeling is that something VERY SUBSTANTIAL would have to be consistent in his scum behavior and show here (something bold, something that is in no way able to be considered town, you know? The "Umph")

I'm doing another game right now that I can't go into details with, but I've expressed that this "Meta immunity" players like Emp and Zwet exercise are like a poison - and I feel the best remedy is to play the game with no regard for meta- you look at the post, and assess it as scummy or town, not "Zwet being Zwet, oh classic Zwet" or something.
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However, meta's can have the "umph", you never know - - I'll do you the courtesy of reading through as well - thank you for the links Zach.
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@Grimmy - get back to us

[AndyTony]

ah - simultaneous post

[AndyTony]

I can be sensitive to that to some extent - thanks for getting back, Grimmy

[Zachrulez]

Because your dodge of it was scummier.

Sorry, but your dodge was WAY scummier than Emp's scumtell.

dejkha, you dodged responding to empking's scumtell. EMPKING DID SAY SOMETHING SCUMMY, BUT YOU NOT WILLING TO CALL HIM OUT ON IT IS A SCUMMIER SCUMTELL.

Vote: Empking

And so dies uselessness...

Now, as I read back, I am seeing a very clear story from Zwet... and it's one that doesn't add up.

I have just plucked 3 posts of him arguing that Dejkha was scummier than Empking on day 2, and then I plucked the hammer post.

The issue here is this. I've never known Zwet to play this way. As town he makes bad cases, refuses to listen to reason, does not understand the refutation of points against his cases, and continues to push them even after they have been effectively broken by better players, BUT, the one thing that isn't adding up here is Zwet not going after who he considers to be his top suspect. This is something I've always known him to do as town regardless of how in tune he is with the discussion going on in the game.

This was the one thing I was trying to put my finger on with his meta and the comments that his play has been unlike what I know of his play as town.

Vote: zwetschenwasser

I'll be doing analysis on everyone else, but I am comfortable enough at this point to vote for Zwet.

[zwetschenwasser]

I enjoy hammering.

[madeofphail]

I have read both of the meta, and all I seem to be able to find is that he is more emotional when he is town than when he is scum. While these games are still evidence, I would hate to lynch on meta again. (I did it once and look where it got us, nice going me.)
That being said, I would still feel bad about no lynching scum just because their reputation makes them immune. I honestly am at a loss as what to do with the situation.

The only thing I can hope for is that people start to post more. We are not making any progress, except for the fact that someone is at L-2. I do not think that he will post a strong response to this situation. I would put him at L-1 to apply more pressure, but I'm afraid something like this will happen again

Vote: Empking

And so dies uselessness...

Granted, I do not think that Zwet will not vote himself, but he is not the one I am worried about.

Zwet still needs to die and should stop refusing to help himself.

I am worried that cephrir, who we have no strong evidence against, will hammer him and leave us at Lylo. Cephrir seems to be not really posting much, or at least not frequently. Besides the AndyTony analysis, he just kinda posts things like "Emp needs to die", "Zwet needs to die", ect.(this is much paraphrased.

The other possiblity is that grimmy votes him, and lynches him.
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Now that I think of it, putting Zwet at L-1 will give us evidence (as long as zwet doesn't lynch himself). Dont do this zwet, this wil give us a clue if we get you lynched. On the other hand, if people listen to me, then they will be afraid to drop the hammer and bada bing, I've just given zwet immunity, which will be very bad if he is scum.
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So, with that In mind, I think that it will be incredibly hard to lynch zwet unless he does something really scummy. but the meta could still grant him immunity. I see a hopeless situation if zwet is scum. If zwet is scum, he's already won in my opinion.
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The only way to break zwets immunity is to lynch him without regret, but that will look scummy unless he turns up scum.
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I really do not know what to make of the situation, so I'm just gunna take a leap of faith here and hope that it works out for the better. hopefully this will yield answers rather than a quick lynch.

Vote: Zwet

[Zachrulez]

I enjoy hammering.

That's your explanation for hammering a player despite the fact that you found another more suspicious?

It's not a very good one.

[zwetschenwasser]

It's around half my explanation.

[Zachrulez]

Then what's the other half?

[dejkha]

Give him a sec. He has to think of something.

[zwetschenwasser]

Emp's uselessness. I've said it before.