Open 125: JK9 (Over) before 761

[ThAdmiral]

/confirm

[ThAdmiral]

vote: tdc

nit picker!

[ThAdmiral]

he's got a point

[ThAdmiral]

And Empking's reaction tells me that he's not in this game. His head is not in this specific game. He's playing a by-the-book gamestyle that doesn't meet the expectations for a Mafia player to adapt to game situations and play situationally. Unfortunately this is how he plays in every game so I don't really know what to say for him in this specific game other than the fact he's being "normal".

I would agree with this to the extent that i don't think empking is willing or able to adapt to different game conditions.
I mean there's having a playstyle but this sort of thing smacks or stubbornness.

[ThAdmiral]

Voting someone for their playstyle is not a good idea, no matter how appealing it might be.

I've been debating this myself for the past couple of days, because there are a bunch of people these days that have really annoying playstyles that they seem to have chosen as a sort of defence mechanism or an easy way out. Part of me would like to see these people get "punished" by being policy lynched in the games they're in, but in the end it is their decision to play however they want and it

does not

reflect their alignment, and therefore is a bad way to play mafia.

[ThAdmiral]

TDC, you really think that Emp is helping the town? Do you really think Emp is being useful? Why are you so defending/preventing his lynch so much?

I'm not saying he's useful.

You guys are saying he's useless and I'm saying that
a) that's not good enough a reason for a lynch at this point
b) I don't understand why Empking is the only one who is useless (his posts might not help much, but at least he does post).

This

Okay good so now you've clarified that you think Empking is useless thank you. There's another reason behind my vote for Empking and that is because in every game I've played with him he's been consistently useless. To the point where it's impossibly to differentiate his town play from his scum play and that's a HUGE problem. If you're town, you need to be to play as town and have it be known that you're town. If you can't portray a pro-town attitude regardless of whether you're scum or town that's so wildcard that it's impossible to deal with.

People do this because it's easier to have a consistently scummy meta than a consistently townie meta. Basically he's a bad player.
Maybe eventually he will realise that consistently playing the way he does will never win him games and maybe he will start to get a hollow feeling from being allowed to live by the rest of the town despite his playstyle. Until then I figure he is much to stubborn to respond to any kind of lessons we try to give him.

I'm saying they're both policy lynches because they're not the kind of people we want in the later stages. Particularly Emp; if anyone's gotta go, it's him.

to clarify, do you actually want both of them lynched? as in one after the other?

[ThAdmiral]

Unless the Jailkeeper prevents two nightkills, we have exactly two mislynches. That's not much, and potentially wasting one of these two on a policy lynch would be stupid. Not only because so far the chance of Empking (or Grimmy) being scum is 1/4 like for everyone else, but because we will have nothing to go on tomorrow.
That some of you even consider

two

policy lynches is outright ridiculous.

Once again I agree with tdc.

BTW, I have noticed how much TDC has been defending Emp, but TDC seems to be very against lynches of

useless townies

and since they've never played before I can understand it.

Are you calling emp a "useless townie"? If so how do you know he's a townie?

[ThAdmiral]

Are you calling emp a "useless townie"? If so how do you know he's a townie?

I'm not calling him a useless townie, but it appears that TDC thinks he is, which is why he's against Emp's lynch.

No, tdc just said that despite his playstyle he still has the same chance of being scum as any one of us. I find it interesting that you used that phrase.

It sounds like the reason.

Hewitt: How easy do you find reading someone who doesn't scum hunt and only want policy lynches?

And this is a good point.

[ThAdmiral]

How do you expect me to do much scumhunting at all when Emp hijacks every game he's in? I like how you agree with his obvious over exaggeration of how much I want policy lynches.

You do really want policy lynches.

[ThAdmiral]

You do really want policy lynches.

I said 2 people were policy lynches, which they are. Emp, at the very least, is and just because he posts, that doesn't make him better than Grimmy. That's not the same as "only wanting policy lynches" as you agreed with.

You really have only talked about policy lynches.

I have a question for you as well: what happens if you are paired up with empking in a game, either as scum or as masons?

[ThAdmiral]

We're all just as likely to be scum as he his, but the chances of us both being scum in the same game, and in this game no less, are incredible low.

I agree with this.

[ThAdmiral]

I still think Emp's a better lynch. If you see, he's been lurking lately, adds nothing to the discussions, and probably, it will stay the same for the rest of the game.

vote: shinnen

this may have been true about 8 pages ago but we are well into the game now and have actual content to base our suspicions on rather than just playstyle.

[ThAdmiral]

It's not playstyle.

He just hasn't done anything that proves me that he's not scum

. He's still lurking, only posting his "scum-tells". Emp is still scummier in front of my eyes.

But Siroginus's lurking is also calling my attention...

Who, so far, has proved that they are not scum?

Empking-dejkha-zwets equally useless in their finger pointing, OMGUS, insulting each other and generally taking any chance the conversation might be off themselves right back onto themselves.

Shinnen and ThAdmiral- not entirely convinced that they are adding anything of original substance to the game and instead rallying off others' opinions.

Sironigous- not even going to lie I personally like because I also heartily endorse the debut of BoA into our music industry but the lurking bothers me and I don't like that you couldn't have added SOMETHING to the conversations that were flowing.

TDC- where the hell have you been the last like 3 days?

you forgot to add yourself:

Hewitt- the one shining light amongst all this dross...

[ThAdmiral]

Is it a coincidence that when I ask the mod to prod someone that hasn't posted for days that they come back right after that? Makes me wonder...

If mod prods work or not? Cause it seems they do!

[ThAdmiral]

Is it a coincidence that when I ask the mod to prod someone that hasn't posted for days that they come back right after that? Makes me wonder...

If mod prods work or not? Cause it seems they do!

I wasnt prodded. I was monitoring the game off and on, and I saw it mentioned. I try to check in at least once per day when possible, especially monday because im not near a computer on weekends.

Grimmy

ah

You did make a slip. Why are you denying it?

Looking back not even I think he made a slip, and I pointed it out. I mean he could have made a slip, but I don't really think he did.

[ThAdmiral]

@ zwet: can you define in your own words what a slip is, and then show how what dej did fits in with your definition?

[ThAdmiral]

Also, I have a gut feeling that Zwet is one of the scum, and my other mid teir gut scum feelings are towards dej and shini.

so their are three scum?

also gut feelings? come on.

[ThAdmiral]

Maybe, but the quote I have from you is "Telling the scum your reads on people (save when you replace in) is anti-town."

That's not specific to telling them who you think is town. Note that when you said that, it was asked that you give opinions on who you thought was town and scum. You did neither for that reason.

This is sort of reaching imo.
It is pretty well known mafia theory that a list of most-town is a bad idea while a list of most-scum is generally an ok idea.

Contradictions are always bad, and I do have a policy of lynching players who contradict themselves. I'm already voting for you, Emp, but I now I have a stronger reason to do so.

calling it a contradiction is a bit rich. I think you are just finding anything you can to substantiate your bad vote.
I'm already voting you, shinnen, but I now I have a stronger reason to do so...

[ThAdmiral]

^Now, that's reaching too far.

And Thad, you seem to be very concerned about me voting for Emp. I find a contradiction, be it small, but it's a contradiction. On the other hand, you're voting for me because I'm voting for Emp. Hmm... Interesting. And you call my vote bad... ¬_¬

completely misrepresenting why I'm voting for you. Not because it's emp, but because why you chose emp.

This is sort of reaching imo.
It is pretty well known mafia theory that a list of most-town is a bad idea while a list of most-scum is generally an ok idea.

I'm not talking about what I think is good or bad, I'm talking about what Emp considers to be. It shows a contradiction is his own logic.

I suppose, sort of.

agree to disagree.

[ThAdmiral]

I would trust his judgment in endgame more than I would trust yours (no offence, but he has just played about 10 times the amount of games that you have).
Does that mean that since you wouldn't be all that useful in endgame you should be lynched now?

Furthermore a lot of things happen on the way to endgame which can change everything. We should worry about it if and when it comes, instead of basing decisions off it now.

[ThAdmiral]

Ok, that's your personal opinion, as I have my own. However, if you do have played with Emp before, you should know that he usually doesn't look pro-town. And, it's not only me, almost every other player that has played with him thinks this way. But again, if that's your opinion, I won't be insisting in it any longer.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

I chose Emp because everything he doesn't like it's a scumtell. Scumtelling almost everything just distracts town, which is, at least for me, scummy. Also, I don't think he's helping much, and there's plenty of meta that backs up that he won't help much in a future. Would you like to reach end-game/near endgame with a player that won't help much? I seriously believe that he's either scum or a anti-town player; one way or another, he is not good for the town.

Shin, I think I've worked out why you think I'm scummy.

a) You're scum.
b) You don't play to win so dislkike things that aren't scum tells.

Am I right?

That just says I'm not ruling out her being scum.

You said, and I quote, "You're scum."

This is comedy gold.

I would trust his judgment in endgame more than I would trust yours (no offence, but he has just played about 10 times the amount of games that you have).

You mean you would trust his OMGUS judgment in endgame over Shinnens legit judgment? That's stupid. (Not saying

you're

stupid, just the action itself is). That's not an insult to Emp either, but clearly it would be a stretch to actually call it "judgment".

I get the distinct feeling that its all an act and that hidden away somewhere in there is actually a decent mafia player.

[ThAdmiral]

I get the distinct feeling that its all an act and that hidden away somewhere in there is actually a decent mafia player.

You really think he's acting infinitely scummy every single game until ithe makes it to lylo and then he'll starting talking like a british detective and start making sense? I don't think so. And that's leads me to

FoS: Admiral

Ha, no I don't think he's going to change (although I suppose he might), but I think he's a better player than a lot of people give him credit. And while I don't agree with his decision to adopt the type of playstyle he has, I can understand his motivations for doing so.

[ThAdmiral]

He's always like this and I don't think he could change without people walking him through it. Meaning, I don't think it's intention. Why play like he does on purpose when it only helps scum?

It's clearly intention. He's playing like he does because it allows him not to expose too much of himself and therefore it is, as you say, harder to get a read on him, and therefore harder to make a case against him.
I would suspect that this would have developed during his introductory phase in mafia where, as we all would have experienced, he got lynched early and often and so retreated in to this playstyle which acted as something like a defence mechanism. Then it became habit.
I also think he enjoys other peoples annoyed reactions to him, which is his (slightly warped) way of exacting revenge on the people who lynched him early and often during his introductory phase.[/psychoanalysis]

And it doesn't only help scum.

dejkha- I think ThAdmiral was just making a suggestion. I don't see at all how ThAdmiral is protecting Empking in any way. I've never seen Empking as town at the end of a game so it's totally possible to me.

He said he gets the feeling Emp is like that. That means he would rather trust a feeling that Emp might, for the first time ever, change his style than Shinnen who makes sense, even if he doesn't agree with her reasons for voting. And this hypothetical would take place in end game, so thats why I'm suspicious.

Once again I don't think he will change (and I never said that so I don't know where you are getting this from). However I do think emp actually has some good points from time to time, and I would trust his judgement more in endgame than shinnen.

[ThAdmiral]

Or maybe it's not intention and he's incapable of changing because he's 10 years old or wears a helmet.

I laughed out loud picturing this!

And it doesn't only help scum.

Yes it does.

Agree to disagree.

Once again I don't think he will change (and I never said that so I don't know where you are getting this from). However I do think emp actually has some good points from time to time, and I would trust his judgement more in endgame than shinnen.

List the good points he's made so far and why.

Ugh, you're going to make me trawl back through 23 pages! (something i see you're not willing to do)

I'll do it though. I've got a point to prove.
Watch this space.

It would be so kickass if you flipped scum.

If I flip town will it change your opinion about empking?

He's always like this and I don't think he could change without people walking him through it. Meaning, I don't think it's intention. Why play like he does on purpose when it only helps scum?

It's clearly intention. He's playing like he does because it allows him not to expose too much of himself and therefore it is, as you say, harder to get a read on him, and therefore harder to make a case against him.
I would suspect that this would have developed during his introductory phase in mafia where, as we all would have experienced, he got lynched early and often and so retreated in to this playstyle which acted as something like a defence mechanism. Then it became habit.
I also think he enjoys other peoples annoyed reactions to him, which is his (slightly warped) way of exacting revenge on the people who lynched him early and often during his introductory phase.[/psychoanalysis]

And it doesn't only help scum.
.

Which ,forgive me if I'm wrong, was you?

I don't understand what you mean by this.

[ThAdmiral]

If I flip town will it change your opinion about empking?

No, it'll just change my opinion about you.

In a good way or a bad way?

Did ThAdmiral switch to making emotional pleas?

Where?

I don't know... I think TheAdmiral is trying to hard to defend Emp, while Emp just stays in the back, with his single-phrase answers.

TheAdmiral, I can understand that you want to defend Emp so hard because you might be convinced that really, REALLY deep inside him there's a good player. But, why trying so hard? You're getting yourself in a bad position, as now people may start wondering if you're just scum that is helping a scumbuddy in problems (which, btw, I'm starting to think that as well).

I just really don't like it when people use someone's playstyle as a way to lynch them. I think it should be obvious that if someone is playing the same in all the games they are in (as empking obviously is) then they are just as likely to be town/scum as any one else and shouldn't be given prejudiced treatment.

[ThAdmiral]

I can understand that, TheAd, as I usually don't like policy lynch either. But, what I find strange (and even suspicious) is that you're risking yourself for that.

Am I?

@Admiral: It depends. I mostly meant good because you'd be town and you actually believe what you say. And bad because... you actually believe what you say =P

It's funny because the empking (and other players who are considered bad) issue is coming up in quite a few games I'm in at the moment. I'd have to say you probably hate him the most out of anyone. Is this true?

[ThAdmiral]

Neither, because I think without him the town will be most productive.

25+ page day 1 = not productive? What?

Aha!
That's what you meant!

I would say the pressure from Zwet and Dejhka.

Mostly post 485 where Dejh finds the slip in Empking...

The mistake happens when Empking tries to defend himself... Which is where I go the whole other part from...

So, by your own logic you are, not only, helping them narrow down who he thinks is town, but you want him to tell you he finds most suspicious (meaning: who they should keep alive)? Doesn't seem very pro-town by your standards.

Man, I wonder how Emp was even able to type after this near-fatal blow.

[ThAdmiral]

The lol smilie looks really stupid!
What's his top lip doing?

[ThAdmiral]

...You really think this day has been productive? Seriously?

Yes. What did you want to happen?
I think you have to lower your expectations of day 1.

[ThAdmiral]

unvote, vote: zwet

that seemed very opportunistic

[ThAdmiral]

I'm totally not surprised that zwets did not wait for a claim to hammer. So typical. Although yeah I've never seen Empking claim either when he should/could have.

I find it odd that you'd let zwet off the hook for usual bad playstyle, but are condemning empking for the same reason.

[ThAdmiral]

I didn't state that either was a good thing. Both are not good in my opinion I don't know why it would think to you that I was supporting zwets decision.

I didn't think you were supporting zwets decision. I think you were saying it was bad play but not scummy play.
And yet for some reason you don't think the same thing applies to empking.

XD

I found the hammering situation really funny. Like "It's over, yay!" Mod: "Nop, not yet." "NOOO!!!!"

Any roads, that situation opened another door for discussion: Zwet sudden eagerness to vote as soon as he learnt that he could hammer Emp. However, I will probably leave this matter for D2. It's true that this day is degenerating already with the whole Emp issue, and we're not going anywhere.

Yet another person willing to let zwet off the hook. In this case to set up a potential chain lynch for tomorrow if empking turns up town.
It is also a complete contradiction to say that A) what zwet did was discussion worthy and B) that this day isn't going anywhere (i.e. there's nothing to talk about)!

I'd be willing to bet any amount of money right now that emp is town and shinnen is scum.
The jury's out on zwet.

vote: shinnen

[ThAdmiral]

I don't necessarily think that either is a scummy play for those two players because it is so consistent with their playstyle. I hate it but that's how they play.

Then why are you voting emp?

[ThAdmiral]

However, I will probably leave this matter for D2.

Why?
And how do you know there'll be a D2 for you in the first place?

Another good point from tdc, who is fast becoming one of my favorite players!
(how come I've never played with you before?)

There really should be more voting for shinnen.

Quickly skimming, I still think Empking should claim, Zwet's claim was a bit silly, and

I find lynching scum to be more productive than making the following day more productive.

QFT.

I'm stuck between suspecting Zwet or Empking more right now, but I'm mostly leaning to Empking...
I'd be happy to see the results of either and decide after that as well...

Wait, what?
You qft tdc's post and then still say you are deciding between 2 policy lynches?
furthermore you say you think 'zwet's claim was a bit silly", but then want empking to claim?
It looks like I have a new contender in the 'most likely to be scum' contest. Unfortunately for you shinnen is still winning.

also...No more claims on

day 1

I say!

[ThAdmiral]

Geez, TheAd, you have a bizarre fixation with me... Any roads... So, I'm scummy because I suposed I'd be alive for D2? Right...

So, seriously, what's your case against me? First I thought you were just defending Emp, but now I'm seeing that you have something else. Care to share with the class? Or is it your way to free attention from your scumbuddy Emp and target it to me?

Read just about every post I've made for the past 5 pages.

[ThAdmiral]

@ dejkha - what do you think of shinnen?

I noticed that you haven't really interacted with her other to say you would trust her more in endgame than empking.
You haven't commented on any of the numerous arguments against her.

[ThAdmiral]

Long day ones are usually good for town. I am fairly confident town will win this game.

[ThAdmiral]

You should be voting her emp.

[ThAdmiral]

You should be voting her emp.

What's the scummiest thing she's done?

Well there's a few but I suppose voting you based on policy is pretty bad, followed up by her then rationalizing her vote with bad reasoning, then basically refusing to look at anyone else or even discuss the possibility of anyone else being scum

until day 2

is pretty bad.

A lot of little things really...

[ThAdmiral]

Zwets is floundering big time. Like a small fried fish.

vote: zwets

[ThAdmiral]

unvote, vote: zwets

[ThAdmiral]

I think its majority only

[ThAdmiral]

@ empking: well were you scum or town? You might as well tell us now.

[ThAdmiral]

Well I am happy with shinnen or zwet. I happen to think shinnen is a better option but I'd be happy to go either.

[ThAdmiral]

And what's exactly your case on me, TheAd?

Sometimes I get the feeling that you haven't read my posts.
Mainly its the whole tunneling on empking through all of day one while ignoring other options, and also saying a few things that sounded strange and could have been minor slips.

[ThAdmiral]

Grimmy NK puzzles me.

But, he was attacking Zwet, so I'll figure the "kill a scum attacker" NK.

Or it could be a set up. It's not all that useful talking about the nk.

I want to hear more from tdc given that he's the only one I trust.

would be happy with:
shinnen lynch
zwet lynch
siro lynch

in that order

[ThAdmiral]

@ tdc: you're right. It does all revolve around zwet.

vote: zwet

[ThAdmiral]

@ kmd: if you get a town read off shinen from day one then you fail.

[ThAdmiral]

I have a question for everyone.

If we take if for granted that we will lynch zwet who would be the most suspicious if:
1. he came up scum
2. he came up town

I think
1. Siro - he was remaining very vague about where his options were in regards to zwet and emp and could have switched to zwet to bus if needs be. In the end "saved" zwet with the emp hammer.
2. Shinnen - scummy behavior all through day one and in any case someone on the emp wagon would have to have been scum.

[ThAdmiral]

@ zwet: well you can tell us who you think the scum pair is.
Or you can tell us who your partner is.

[ThAdmiral]

anyone else?

[ThAdmiral]

finished reading kmd?

[ThAdmiral]

Well that's a lynch I think.

[ThAdmiral]

yep.

[ThAdmiral]

Well good game guys.

I was pretty much hoping for a miracle in the end but no such luck. This set up seems quite difficult for the scum to win unless they get an early PR kill.

Oh well.

@ Dej: well you got your wish and your two policy lynch policy paid off. I will note that emp wasn't scum though

[ThAdmiral]

That's the thing I don't really feel the town did all that well with the exception of TDC. Also shinnen disappearing didn't help because almost all of the pressure went off her.
She was my planned lynch for day 2 but then zwet committed stupicide.

[ThAdmiral]

@ mod: thank you for the comments. These are always fun to read after a game.

[ThAdmiral]

*facepalm* sorry, thad.

Nah, s'okay. We were up against a pretty cluey town. It was always going to be hard for us.

[ThAdmiral]

People weren't jumping to conclusions so good wagons were hard to form. That old adage about a long day 1 being good for town once again proves itself true.
Furthermore they had a watertight gameplan on the final day. At that point there was no way for them to lose.