Mini #682: C9++ (Game Over!)

[sekinj]

I wanted to be first to post

[sekinj]

wow... I think germy is running for mayor...

[sekinj]

It looks liek we are still waiting for some people to post for the first time?

@chuck: not really understanding how you need MORE detail about the set up...

[sekinj]

Vote: Germy

I appreciate all of the info but come on. You made this game all serious and stuff with your fancy mathematics. I am here to have fun. Take a chill pill, (for now) vote randomly, and watch as people childishly overreact to the random voting.

or we could scumhunt instead...

[sekinj]

@spring: lol - I'm goign to just chalk that up to a random vote and ignore it.

[sekinj]

I also agree that millers should claim, and that vig should hold off on night 1. However, I don't think anyone else shoudl claim, and we'll see how Day2 goes before I have any other input about the vig

[sekinj]

@everyone voting germy: Do you really think he is SCUM or do you just think his early claim and directing of the game was un-town?

[sekinj]

<snip>
I agree with the miller claims, and to be honest I don't really mind the type of claim he did. The thing I don't like, is the fact that it was

the first

post. <snip>

It actually wasn't

the first

post... it was the third... but I understand your point...

[sekinj]

I don't think germy is likely to be scum, sekinj you're not gonna really ignore me are you? I really didn't like what you said about scumhunting you know.

why not? do you prefer random voting to scumhunting? I'm not sure what your point is...

[sekinj]

My point is I don't see you scumhunting.

Your right, I hadn't yet kicked my scumhunting into gear on page 2. however, I also wasn't participating or promoting the random voting, which was my point. Rather than continue random voting, let's start scum hunting. and no, I don't have a case on anyone yet, but I am participating and noticing how everyone interacts.

Why did that one word put you into such a tizzy?

[sekinj]

As for me,

springlullaby is mafia

• The attack on sekinj seems excessive, plus I don't like a "random vote" in her first post when she had already begun discussing my claim.

Excessive really? I feel I'm being merely conversational, if not banter-y. And not everything is about you babe, thing is when I discussed your claim in my first post, I didn't intend to 'begin' anything, but rather to close the chapter, because I didn't find your stunt that interesting.

I do not find your style "banter-y" at all. and certainly not conversational.

My point is I don't see you scumhunting.

Your right, I hadn't yet kicked my scumhunting into gear on page 2. however, I also wasn't participating or promoting the random voting, which was my point. Rather than continue random voting, let's start scum hunting. and no, I don't have a case on anyone yet, but I am participating and noticing how everyone interacts.

Why did that one word put you into such a tizzy?

I didn't like it, and didn't like the post about ignoring me. Do you have any conclusions so far?

Well, I have to admit that the vote and "reason" were so ridiculous, I

really

did think you were joking/random voting until you kept on it. and No, I have not come to conclusions in the last 2 hours, but I will be sure that you are the first to know since you are so anxious to see my scumdar in action.

[sekinj]

will address the issues against me tomorrow

[sekinj]

My reads so far:

afatchic

– has made 4 posts. I DO NOT believe he is scum from those posts. I’d like to see a lot more from him to get a read. Yes, he seems wishy-washy, and indecisive, but such does not equal scum. Kair’s attack happened after only two of those posts and I believe is a big misrep. Read afatchic in isolation and see if that screams scum. However, I think it would benefit everyone to hear afatchic’s defense.

alvinz95

– more posting needed. STAT.

Artem

– lots of setup discussion. Had good discussion with kair. Seemed to jump on the afat wagon too quickly, maybe to appease Kair for mis-reading his post earlier?

CF Riot

– seems reasonable. However, he has not made any accusations directly against anyone. Most of his posts consist of questions to others, replying to questions, observations, or speculation about the setup. I’d like to see more regarding his opinions about other players.

ChuckNorris

– seems just as wishy-washy as afatchic, just more involved. He thought germy was scum, and then he didn’t. thinks germy is still dangerous, but pro-town. His post in isolation #6 actually make me think that maybe HE is the SK.

Edify

– I think germy’s reasoning was bad on this one. Edify does look scummy, but it is because his post is trying WAY too hard to be random when we’ve already hopped over the random stage. I’d like to see what path his replacement takes. I don’t see any connection at all between him and myko.

germy

- I agree with germy's tactic for the most part, and I also believe he is town. Even if his tactic for starting a game was considered by others to be anti-town and giving info to scum, I believe in the power of information. Giving more info to the town is beneficial. I think he will be a big help to the town, and in fact already has been by boosting discussion tremendously while we are only on P4. Many of the initial votes on Germy I felt were more “That is SO anti-town and you should be punished for it” rather than “you are scum and giving information is a big scumtell”.

Kairyuu

– aggressive, but rash. Cannot stand to be wrong. Even the smallest mistake pointed out by others frustrates him. However, he

frequently

misrepresents others in his cases. He reminds me of a bulldozer. Everyone just wants to get out of his way. This makes it really hard to back him down once he has decided who is scum.

mykonian

– pro-town, however, I’d like to see him take more of a stand. He has been a bit too agreeable with everyone. Even after germy said he was 1 of 3 scum, myko’s response was “yeah, I agree on the other two, but I don’t think I am scum, really…”

Nightwolf

– his posts make me tired. Good content, just long. I think he has a legitimate discussion going, but I disagree. germy has helped the town by generating discussion and providing information. Those are simple items, but I think they will end up being the key to a town win.

sekinj

– Me! I’m town!

springlullaby

– In her post in isolation #3 she says the vote on me

isn’t quite

a random vote. That means it wasn’t completely serious. Why did she keep going after me? Was she unsure when he placed her vote whether it was random or not? And still in Post #7 she says, “I didn’t like it, and didn’t like the post about ignoring me.” - So I think she was throwing a hissy fit because she didn’t like how I reacted to her vote. All in all I see way too many appeals to emotion, and reasoning based only on emotion rather than real substance.

I am suspicious of: CF Riot for not rocking the boat, Artem for being swayed too easily. The jury is out on al and edify.

[sekinj]

Sekinj, who would you like to vote for?

yo mama



-not really. I want to see more of how people react. then I'll vote. thanks for asking.

[sekinj]

2) Sekinj - You refused to respond to SpringLullaby's vote. I think that given the chance, scum like to ignore accusations that they believe won't gain support, rather than try to refute them and consequently draw more attention to the matter. I caught a scum in my first game this way, with a prying question over a very small issue. He refused to respond because a few people had said the question was unfair, and it turned out he was scum.

I responded as soon as I realized spring was serious. I actually did think it was just a random vote. she even admitted that it was 'partially' a random vote, whatever that is.

@spring: lol - I'm goign to just chalk that up to a random vote and ignore it.

Why the 'lol', what do you find humorous? Do you not agree with what I said?

What would you do if it wasn't a random vote?

It isn't quite.

Please read this and let me know how I was supposed to take that seriously? "It isn't quite"?? her initial vote has zero reasoning and she follows it up with this.

I didn't understand her reasoning for attacking a passing comment. I was simply promoting general scumhunting rather than random voting. I wasn't trying to make any statements about my play or anyone else's play at that point in the game.

[sekinj]

@sekinj: I agree wholeheartledly that I am agressive; but rash? Seriously? Also, where have I gotten frusterated when someone pointed out a mistake I made. The only one that someone pointed out to me was the numbers I misinterpreted from germy's first post, and I had no problem with it. If you are referring to the times when Artem 'pointed out my mistakes' then you really need to look them over again. Artem has attacked me for things that

he

misinterpreted repeatedly.

And where exactly do I misrepresent people in my posts at all, let alone frequently? If you are going to accuse me of something, then you had better be prepared to back that up with evidence.

You seemed to get VERY annoyed when anyone brought up the numbers thing again. I wasn't talking about the Artem thing, if you look at my commentary on him I mention that it was a good discussion (in fact the only one he has had besides setup mumbo jumbo).

I think the biggest victim of misrep right now is afatchic. I don't feel like you are representing my comments correctly either, but maybe I havn't been clear enough. in any case, I'd like to see what clarification afatchic can bring.

[sekinj]

Also interested and waiting patiently to see afatchic post his defense.

same. I am giving afat the benefit of the doubt for now, but I'd like to see a good response to kair's case.

[sekinj]

I still have a grudge on germy.

germy is the best case you can see right now? do you have any opinions on the other cases that have come up? against afatchic? artem?

[sekinj]

Still trying to to get into the game...

On germy.
To be blunt, I don't think he is scum. Whether what he did was pro-town or not(I'm not sure, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the mechanics), I don't think that any scum would make that kind of move so early.

What? why are we still talking about germy? every else has already given their opinion on him. What do you think of afat and most recently artem?

[sekinj]

@CF - i agree on holding off. I too was goign to tell kair where I thought he had misread afat, but I'd rather see afat say it himself.

[sekinj]

@kair:

regarding scig - I was just tired of people talking about germy. he is old news. al had just made a comment about germy as well and I called him out too, but admittedly not as harshly.

regarding art - you remind me of my husband who is a lawyer, I can never win an arguement with him.

[sekinj]

Artem - has not really redeemed himself. Seems to be attacking Kair too strongly, especially since he agreed with kair regarding afat...

@artem - do you really think kair is scum? and if so, why do you agree with him about afat? why would kair be attacking afat at this point in the game?

ChuckNorris - interesting that he replaced out without commenting on my suspicon that he is the SK (if there is one)

Kair - I don't like his case against afat... but I have liked the pressure he has put on art.

CF - looking forward to his case

myk - still haven't seen him take much of a stand... he seems to want everyone to get along. Yet, he says that the scum are keeping quite... does that mean afat, al and chuck are the scum? I don't think it's good reasoning that either all lurkers are scum , or scum woudln't defend/attack on Day1...

[sekinj]

@myk.. psst... I am a she... that's what the little pink symbol means...

[sekinj]

@sekinj: Can you clarify this:

regarding art - you remind me of my husband who is a lawyer, I can never win an arguement with him.

Are you saying that you agree with me? Or is it just a fun fact from out of game?

I'm saying it's hard for me to seperate whether you are just winning the argument, or are actually the one in the right. You are both being defensive, but aggressiveness seems to be your playstyle, and I didn't see Artem step up until he was called on it. So I'm just trying to figure out if you are just townies butting heads, or if one of you is trying to intentionally trip the other up.

but it a fun fact too...

[sekinj]

Actually - as days go by there is more and more reason to vote afat instead of less, since he is not defending at all....

[sekinj]

Well, other than knowing my own alignment to be town, I agree with the idea. I think that if we lynch afatchic then if he flips scum germy will be more likely town, because of the buddying up and then backing down. If he flips town, then I will hope that someone can confirm my alignment, but if they can't then I will not fight against being the D2 lynch, because I was the one who proposed the case in the first place.

This is just a bad logic/thought process for a townie. For a town person to want to an an investigation basically wasted on them or the alternative to accept a D2 lynch? either way we've either wasted a power for the night or lost 2 townies instead of one. I think this is more likely arrogant scum knowing they will invesigate cleanly and get a free pass to the end of the game. If he gets a townie lynched D1, and then gets cleared N1... He really will have a free ride until endgame.
It looks liek Artem thought the same, and that makes me think he really was just defending himself against and over-the-top attack by Kair.

I'd love to see Kair's answers to SL's questions as well.

Vote: Kair

[sekinj]

@myk- I really dislike a plea to keep another player alive... and I'm not going to vote or unvote someone based on your feelings which you can't explain or justify.

[sekinj]

FoS: Mykonian

for fishing for power-roles and being overly defensive for another player.

@Mykonian: what if afatchic flips town? How will you decide if Kair's story is "good" or "bad" on Day 2?

qft

[sekinj]

Unvote.

I'm quite convinced at this point.

[sekinj]

@CF - I just didn't have much time, and with kair so close to lynch I wanted to be sure to unvote. I will state my reasons later tonight but it was a lot of the stuff both kair and germy said.

I dont' knwo what you found scummy about voting kair. the godfather sounding comment just did it for me so I took the plunge and voted. It was about time since I hadn't voted anyone yet. I thought that supposed "slip" was good/bad enough for a vote, then Kair's explaination cleared it up. but I will point out specifically why I unvoted later tonight.

[sekinj]

I unvoted Kair becuase of his response to the pressure of being voted. These things in particular are what caught my eye when I read and caused me to unvote before taking the time to explain.

Look at Newbie 661. We broke the game by having the cop claim D2 with his investigation of a townie. I'd say that was a good idea. That's irrelevant though,

because I am not insisting on an investigation, but something else.

The bolded is what I DIDN'T know, and had to have kair state explicitly before I understood.

Never said that they should. I would actually suggest not investigating me tonight (unless things do not go the way I planned). Automatically assuming I'm asking for a cop claim is not the best move.

I DID assume he was asking for a cop claim, because that is how I read his initial statement.

I am aggressive, which, if you believe I am town, is a big help in finding the scum, because my method of scumhunting allows me to make the scum slip up more easily. Also, I have been actively scumhunting, whereas an unfortunately large amount of the town has not.

I can see that Kair's style makes him hard for me to read, and I agree that we have too many lurkers.

Well, I could most certainly see it as having come from the godfather if I was in your shoes, so I will concede that you are right, it does sound that way.

I am glad that Kair admitted this here. He's not saying we were stupid to ever think it, he is saying that it was reasonable, but wrong. That is something I can accept.

For a town person to want to an an investigation basically wasted on them or the alternative to accept a D2 lynch?

Firstly, I never asked for an investigation. I mentioned hoping I could be confirmed, which was my way of implying that I could be confirmed. Secondly, I said that I would submit to a lynch if I couldn't be confirmed, which I do believe I can be.

I feel justified in my response since many people read it the same way, however, I can see and understand that now after you have explained yourself, and to each person to boot.

I think this is more likely arrogant scum knowing they will invesigate cleanly and get a free pass to the end of the game. If he gets a townie lynched D1, and then gets cleared N1... He really will have a free ride until endgame.

Or perhaps you could consider the alternative: A townie confident in his ability to get confirmed, and also confident that the person he is voting is scum. Because that is what I am.

It looks liek Artem thought the same, and that makes me think he really was just defending himself against and over-the-top attack by Kair.

Artem said it sounded like a godfather speaking. Which has nothing to do with our argument. I'm surprised I have to mention this again after calling Artem out about it already, but that thinking is called Correlation Implies Collaboration, and is a logical fallacy. Just because Artem thought the same way as you did on a single point does not mean that everything he has said has been pro-town, and just because a single thing I said could be interpreted as something scum might say, does not automatically mean that everything I have said is scummy.

I didn't mean that just because artem thought you were godfather he was correct in the previous argument, but from my words do bear clarification. I just meant that if you were godfather, it was more likely that you were pushing too hard because you were trying to get a townie lynched. Rather than it just being playstyle and aggressive scum hunting, as I am back to believing.

If you are Town, you should always fight your lynch, no matter how much "sense" you know it might make to the rest of the Town that you look like scum.

I both agree and disagree. I agree in that a townie should try to prevent their own lynch in favor of one they think to be better, but I disagree in that if a townie is almost certainly going to get lynched, they should submit rather than flail to their death, because a flailing townie hurts the town more than a townie who realizes that they are as good as dead and doesn't fight against it.

These are good thoughts by kair is response to germy. I've seen towns ripped apart and scum wins all because of a townie who was a ditraction.

First, I'll accept that you did not necessarily mean "investigate" when you used the word "confirmed." You even flatly denied it in response to springlullaby. Okay.

agreed.

Mostly because I wanted to make it seem like I would be an easy target for the scum to jump on tomorrow. I was trying to set myself up for a quasi-Slayer's Gambit, but without the terrible play part.

Ah, but you see, if I didn't leave room for doubt, then where would I get the fun reactions from the town and the possibility of surviving the night. I will come out and state it right now. I can be confirmed with certainty, and will if I get to L-1 or there is a call for it.

This is were I can see Kair's little gambit. I think this was a good way to draw the scum out, and I hope we can use the information gained from it.


Each of these excepts from germy and kair are what led me to unvote. It seems perfectly resonable since the only reason i voted kair is becuase it looked liek he was godfather and slipped. Now, wiht his explainations he has convinced me otherwise.

[sekinj]

@Cf - no additional comments about your vote against me? You said you were waiting for my explaination and you have yet to address it.

[sekinj]

Sekinj leaps to mind. Her account of her unvote of Kairyuu gave me no satisfaction. I may be biased because the explanations came after Kairyuu already claimed mason. As has been stated, her vote for Kairyuu seems more opportunistic than logical (of course, am I not doing the same now!).

unvote of Kari - I can't defend against "your satisfaction". I can only give you the points made my kair and germy that made me unvote.

Her dismissal of springlullaby’s early vote for her isn’t itself suspect, but I admit that I expected her to respond with another admonishment to hunt for scum rather than random vote. So it sent a flag up for me. She later seems almost evasive and then almost re-directive (see: tizzy).

I didn't address SL's vote becuase I REALLY thought it was random, this is the third time I've said that. Even after I realized she was serious, I still didn't understand what led to her vote. and I still think it was silly (see: tizzy)

By three pages in, when many people were introducing material to discuss, she wasn’t prepared to participate fully in the conversation.

Yeah, it was page 3. that shoudl tell you everything right there, even in this game that lacked a random stage. I did not yet have a good enough read on anyone or a case built yet. i don't even know why this is a point of discussion. actually the Majority of players had not yet had a chance to process or post a case... only a few were beginning to point our their initial suspicions. I was just the only one specifically called out because I made a comment against someone's extolation of the random stage.

CF Riot makes a good point, I think, against her in post 100, when he points out that scum dislikes drawing attention to accusations.

Cf's post 100 - again, same answer as before, I'm getting very tired of this question, and the whole SL discussion. I never understood it from the beginning

I do give her points for briefly defending a confirmed townie, afatchic, but that was just part of a criticism of Kairyuu.

Should I have made a seperate post for it? In order to get more points from you?? I didn't think afat had posted anything that I could get a read on.

I think her response to germy being reintroduced as a suspect might itself be suspect. Normally, I’d see nothing wrong, but with everything else, it feels like she’s annoyed because she already knows whether germy is town or scum, which only scum or mason could know at this point… And she’s not a mason, it would seem.

I don't like talking about old news. I'm going to get annoyed when players are chiming in about a subject that took place 3 pages ago and the player in question hadn't posted in so long that he was being prodded by the mod! germy wasn't relevant at that time!

Also… Did Sekinj add fuel to the Kairyuu/Artem fire? Maybe unintentionally, but Artem seems to think that Sekinj thought he appeased Kairyuu too much. Was that a weak attempt to make the row the focus of discussion? She then says that Artem is attacking Kairyuu too strongly… I find her involvement in the row irregular.

Artem stepped up his attack dramatically after I made the "appease Kair" statement. After that it looked liek Artem went after kair in a fury, so yes, my opinion changed.

I know that taken individually, any of these things could be dismissed. What I think is suspect is the pattern. Therefore,

Unvote: Kairyuu, Vote: Sekinj

I see a pattern of you misreading, misunderstanding and trying to find scum where there isn't any.

[sekinj]

It also seemed like Schez went after someone who wasn't attacking afat, but not defending everything either. I didn't think afat's posts had enough to attack, but I also mentioned that the nonexistant defense was starting to look very bad.

It's like Schez wanted to be sure she didn't look like she was buddying or OMGUSing...

[sekinj]

@Sekinj: I do apologise for annoying you. I understand that you're tired of hearing about some of the things I mentioned. However tired of them you may be, I do think that they deserve consideration as indications that you might be scum.

and that is strong enough for a vote?



@CF - I dont' hop my vote around a lot. I consider it important each time I vote. Therefore, I'm not going to vote until I'm ready or think it is warranted. You pushing me to vote just makes me drag my heels more. We are not close to deadline, so I see no reason that I cannot continue to discuss and view other players responses to cases.

[sekinj]

As for considering Artem the victim... It may be that I found the kitten disarming.

then how do you explain suspecting me...?

[sekinj]

The kitten is cute, I will cede that point, but kittens are devil spawn, and should not be trusted.

i beg to differ...

[sekinj]

Sekinj: Who's cases are you waiting to examine? What subjects would you most like to discuss at the moment?

Sekinj, no question dodging please. A little more input from you would be nice.

sorry, can't do indepth during the day. I'm at work. please hold your horses until tonight. 24 hours is not a long time.

[sekinj]

EBWOP: that is 24 from when you asked, not from now

[sekinj]

it's just you... they look fine to me...


not really

[sekinj]

CF

p0 - "Forgive me for keeping the possibility open that you're lying. =] " --

I never liked the ambivilance shown by CF's first post.

p1 - "@All: Question, what is the down side to a mafioso claiming miller?"

p2 - "I didn't ask you anything. No one asked you anything. ???" --

CF brings this up again later, questioning chuck pretty heavily as to what he was answering. This even makes CF put chuck as #3 on his early LoS... I'm not sure why CF put so much emphasis on this, and why he apparently considered it scummy.

p3 - "Nightwolf and Kairyuu's arguments have me leaning towards it hurting the town more than it helps. " --

looks like he is trying to buddy up to the players that seem the most town so far

p4 - "I'm going to throw out the idea that if no one has claimed miller by the end of page 5, we don't have any.<snip>I think any miller claims after page 5 can be considered lies, with reasonable exceptions." --

I don't liek that he felt the need to have to tie this down. What was the point of this? So that if anyone claimed miller later he could point back and say it was already scummy? I don't really see the need to define/discuss/warn about what actions will be considered scummy if they occure.

p7 - I make #2 on his LOS after calling him out on not making accusations. --

seems convenient. his only case at that point is the SL joke vote.

p12 - addresses SL asks her to verbalize a statement more thoroughly --

This is the first and last time he EVER addresses SL. the only other mentions of her name are when he is talkinga bout his case on me. That makes this really seem more like coaching than actual clarification.

p14 - "I think Sekinj could be a good lynch, and I'm considering Artem after a reread, now that you're claimed mason." --

this post was made Mon Oct 13th... keep this in mind...

p15 - one example of charter as scum and one as town --

sorry, I don't buy it. I'm in a game with charter that just now ended and his behavior in this game breaks your little scenario wide open. i don't buy it one bit. over-reacting is a null-tell, and has more to do with playstyle than alignment

p16 - defends not wanting Kair to claim fully. "Wolf, Germy, who are you looking at now?" --

the last part seems like he is trying to deflect in order to get the discussion off of himself

p17 - says my thoughts/defense had no bearing on his opinion

p18 - pushes me to vote

p20 -

seems liek too much of an appeal to the town. Instead of strongly stating a defense he asks if he should point out things, and post his earlier thoughts on afat (which are practically null now anyway)

p21 - "Did a reread of Artem, and I don't really see anything suspicious there, but I was iffy about him earlier in the game so I guess now I'm neutral."

-- this was posted Oct 16th (see his post#14) Artem had made 5 posts between the time CF did his first "reread" of artem and then this his second "reread" of artem. A) what exactly in those 5 posts made artem go from being 'considered after my lynch' to 'nothing really suspicious' (maybe it was the purrr post). B) Why does CF feel that Artem needs to be reread so often?

[sekinj]

after looking at CF and seeing his interesting interction with SL, I took a brief look at SL also... but didn't see anything too glaring. just her recent shout-outs to the lurkers while not posting large amounts herself and she seems to go back and forth on germy a lot. first he's town, and then he's scummy, and now hes back to town. She has also made numerous posts with significant acusations which lack any reasoning or backing (see posts in isolation 2, 15, 20 and 21). Some of those she has followed up on, but some remain unexplained.

[sekinj]

Shez - i dont' always address things in the order they were written in the thread. And, I usually skim first, state quick thoughts (during the workday) and then re-read more thoroughly at night (or at lunchbreak). So sometimes I will catch things I didn't before or have more thoughts on a topic. that's just how I play... It seems that a lot of your case is built on that... so... yeah, you're reaching pretty far.

[sekinj]

@CF - i figured your case would be mostly things already discussed, and then the dreaded OMGUS would appear. But answer this... Who SHOULD I be suspicous of? (rhetorical) My choices are germy (who I have thought was pro-town all along), the confirmed masons, the lurkers, or the people attacking me.... so really, is it that big of a stretch that my biggest suspects are spring and you? and Shez as a third? and yes, the OMGUS thing HAS caused me to hold my vote longer than normal. However, now that you brought it out, and I've addressed it:

Vote: Spring

[sekinj]

I am still pretty sure that the Kair/Artem arguement was NOT two townies butting heads. I think there was scum in there somewhere. and since I beleive Kair's mason claim, I'm going to have to be suspicious of Artem. As I've said before, he really stepped up his attack after I made a comment about it.

@Kair - You are willing to switch your vote over when Shez has 4 votes and I have 2? It seems obvious where the bulk of the suspicion lies.

[sekinj]

@Sekinj: You each have two. I am much more suspicious of Zade than of you (especially after what I just mentioned in my last post) and think that it would give us much more info if we lynched Zade, but deadline is getting worryingly close, and we need a lynch to get any information whatsoever.

Yes, you are right. I was mistaken in the votes against us. I looked at the latest VC and missed the unvotes of Silver and Myk. I agree that it is a reasonable move to vote the person with the most votes in order to avoid the no lynch. Whn i thought shez still had 4 I thought it seemed scummy that you were "keeping your options open" by saying that you would be willing to vote me.

[sekinj]

@Sekinj:

"So I'm just trying to figure out if you are just townies butting heads, or if one of you is trying to intentionally trip the other up." (Post 166)

Your opinion only changed when you voted Kairyuu for making the "confirm my alignment" remark. Now that is resolved, what about Artem makes you think that he's scum? I mean, you weren't sure before you suspected this comment. In fact, you agreed with Artem when you cast the vote, implying strongly that you thought he was town. Now that Kairyuu's comment is explained, you jump on Artem? What changed your mind, please?

I've been trying to figure them out all along. I think the exchange didn't look right for two townies. When Kair made the godfather remark, I jumped on him because it seemed that he was the scum. Now that that is cleared up, and I beleive Kair's mason claim, I think that Artem was the scum in that exchange. He is not my top suspect, but I do believe he is scum.

Also, encouraging someone to vote for the person with the most blame is scummy. It's not a good argument to say "that's what most people believe" in any context, much less this one where, as scum, you would stand to gain from a lynch made from ignorance rather than logic.

Again you misunderstand me. I wasn't encouraging Kair to vote anywhere, and I wasn't arguing a case. I was pointing out what looked like to me a move to keep his options open. I would have asked for clarification or pointed it out no matter who the votes were for. I thought shez still had 4 votes, and I had two. from that perspective it looked odd that Kair was broadcasting the fact that he would switch to me if necessary before deadline. Now that Kair pointed out the unvotes I missed, it is a null point. I completely understand voting for someone simply to avoid a no lynch.

[sekinj]

@SL - So.... you are actually saying that yo mama made you not vote for me??



















ROFL.

[sekinj]

@SL - this is why I'm suspicious of you:

From my post #43:
her recent shout-outs to the lurkers while not posting large amounts herself and she seems to go back and forth on germy a lot. first he's town, and then he's scummy, and now hes back to town. She has also made numerous posts with significant acusations which lack any reasoning or backing (see posts in isolation 2, 15, 20 and 21). Some of those she has followed up on, but some remain unexplained.


I didn't see enough glaring in each post to do a PBPA, but I don't like your deflecting, and wishy-washiness. It also seems like you are trying to skate under the radar at times. I also think that is it odd that you and CF both think I am scummy but have never addressed each other directly.... I am suspicious of that lack of interaction.

[sekinj]

@Artem - I'm not ignoring you. I have a longer answer that I will post later tongiht.

[sekinj]

I have stated that I was willing to lynch you, what do you think of it?

I think that's mean.

[sekinj]

I'm no gonna throw around my vote like you apparently want me to do...for some reason

FoS germy

. However, sekinj, from what glances I've seen of his posts and cases against him, looks interesting at least. I'll look at him later today.

choosing someone 3 days until deadline is hardly "throwing your vote around". and latching on to me right here, without even stating why just looks like you are going for the easy lynch.

Fos: scig

[sekinj]

SP... really need to get a vote down, even if you're unsure of your read right now.

With the votes evenly divided over Scheherazade, Sekinj, and springlullaby, and cases for each one of them and Artem flying every which way, I feel that we as a town aren't having the same conversation. People are going steadfast in their opinions of the others and no one is convincing anyone: a dangerous situation for the town. This lynch is

hard!

Certainly the hardest I have ever participated in. But I'll make a deal: I will decide tonight my order of lynch-worthy people, and vote for someone. I can say with certainty that the list will have Artem, springlullaby, zade, and sekinj on it, maybe others. But I'm going to need to brood heavily over what has been said, especially in the last couple of pages as people start to get ancy over a No Lynch.

SP: I haven't seen anything scummy from you so far, but I don't liek this post. You name everyone that anyone has been suspicious of, and claim difficulty in chosing. This looks like you are prentending ambivilence and that you are stalling in order to see where others put their votes, or if they will change their votes. Now... I'm not even going to Fos you for that because I havn't seen anything else scummy from you... but I don't like this post... it looks too much like a false dilemma.

[sekinj]

I've been trying to figure them out all along.

I think the exchange didn't look right for two townies.

When Kair made the godfather remark, I jumped on him because it seemed that he was the scum. Now that that is cleared up, and I beleive Kair's mason claim, I think that Artem was the scum in that exchange. He is not my top suspect, but I do believe he is scum.

Can you please present some examples for the bolded part?

I went back and looked, but I couldn't find quotes for you. really if I had something more firm you would be higher up on my LoS. As it is I just have vibes, which i know are weak. I just dont' think you both are town.

Also, Kair's claim has been cleared for some time already, yet, you didn't bring up the suspicion of me until a handful of posts ago. Why?

In my reply to CF inpost 335 I mentioned some people I was suspicious of. After I came back the next day I realized I had left you off. so I was correcting that.

I'm also going to throw out the possibility of SL and Sekinj being scum-buddies. The original argument was most likely a way of distancing and both have been largely ignoring each other recently. In particular, SL just hangs up on the whole argument:

@sekinj, what you say in #102 is not 'quite' ( which is to say, 'simply not true'), check post #34 in which I've explained my vote even before you dismiss it. That said , I actually like how you are standing your ground but not so much that analysis of yours which didn't say much.

But I'm more interested in Artem at the moment.
Unvote, Vote Artem

So, SL doesn't like the analysis post but likes the fact that Sekinj posted it? It feels like a scum patting their buddy on the back going: "Good job, you've posted something. I'm going to leave you alone for now."

FoS: SL

the sek/SL scumbuddy thing is just lame. didn't we already discuss that??

[sekinj]

sekinj, since you are around, mind replying to my 367 beside in joking?

I dont' know what kind of response you want. I obviously don't like that you want to lynch me... I think you are wrong and misguided...

[sekinj]

SP: I haven't seen anything scummy from you so far, but I don't liek this post. You name everyone that anyone has been suspicious of, and claim difficulty in chosing. This looks like you are prentending ambivilence and that you are stalling in order to see where others put their votes, or if they will change their votes. Now... I'm not even going to Fos you for that because I havn't seen anything else scummy from you... but I don't like this post... it looks too much like a false dilemma.

False dilemma? You don't call zade with 3, sekinj and spring each with 2, Artem and Scigatt each with 1 a dilemma? We need 7 votes from 11 (Ku_F is pretty much out) so we don't need division among the ranks for this lynch. I'm not going to just eenie-meenie-minie-moe it either like myko seems to be doing (not a good sign, btw). My post may seem to be a complaint, but it is merely reflecting the situation as it stands. I don't know how you can't agree with that.

I think it's supicious when people keep their options THAT open. I'm anxious to see how you decide to place your vote and the reasoning behind it.

[sekinj]

In the post, I have addressed other questions to you (bolded text). I'd also like you to react to answer to your suspicions.

Ahh! got it. I'll respond to it. I didn't know why you were pushing me so much about how I felt about you wanting to lynch me. responses to the bolded up coming....

[sekinj]

Sorry I missed these. The bold within other people's quotes is hard for me to read.

It is true that I change my mind a lot, that's kinda how I think and I don't particularly mind displaying my doubts, but concerning germy, I changed my mind only once. I have gone from 'pretty sure he is town' to 'looking scummier and scummier but I'm not willing to pursue the point'. I explained that in the post I retracted.

Why arn't you willing to pursue? you think he is acting scummy, but is not scum? or may you just knwo the rest of the town wouldn't be convinced.

So you think changing one's mind is a scumtell?

obviously not. I think leaving your options wide open and leaving your language open to interpretation is a scumtell.

Please point out what you think I have left unexplained, and I'll explain.

your post in isolation 20. Maybe you answered this in your most recent post regarding Artem. i will review.

If you are on about my prodding lurkers, I already explained that I felt their lack of posting was more than suspicious at the time, and specially specified in these posts that I was going to post my thought after them.

the thing is it seemed like you were more concerned about their actions, rather than stating your own opinions about the issue at hand. It just looked like a stalling tactic. You explicity state that you were waiting for them to post before you posted somethign bigger.

Wishy-washyness, if you mean germy, I have explained up above.

You've made some comments, but I would understand your progression much better if you had actually addressed what was leading you to think he was more and more scummy. As it is there are just random comments about germy's scumminess, and nothing that can be quantified. that's why i thought it looked wishy-washy.

I have stated that I was willing to lynch you, what do you think of it?

I think it's mean. I think you are wrong. I think you are a misguided scum if you think you can lynch this townie with these arguements.

[sekinj]

So basically you are voting me becuase I criticized you for sitting the fence?

@Kair - You are willing to switch your vote over when Shez has 4 votes and I have 2? It seems obvious where the bulk of the suspicion lies.

Interesting, considering your vote is on springlullaby without much substance at this point. Your only accusation before that was in Post 41, in which you took "a brief look" and found "nothing glaring". That was the entire basis of your vote for her at that point, and considering how you regard votes with care (Post 34), I find your vote somewhat disturbing.

I dont' know how my comment to Kair relates to what you said afterward. I have already explained why I said that to Kair twice now. It is a null point. I was not looking at an up to date vote count.

And by "nothing glaring", I meant not enough in each post to do a pbpa. I had just done a pbpa of CF, and then looked at SL to do one. I started it, but I didn't see it a good case to mention all of her posts. I DO however, see a good enough case to call her scum.

You then continue with recent comments about voting:

... and that you are stalling in order to see where others put their votes, or if they will change their votes.

Even though you approved of the same here:

-not really. I want to see more of how people react. then I'll vote. thanks for asking.

This lynch isn't extremely imminent yet, yet you think my stalling for a couple of hours is too ambivalent?

Saying "I don't want to vote yet"

Seventeen (17)

days from deadline is MUCH different than saying "I don't want to vote yet"

Two (2)

days from deadline. they arn't even comparable.

You voted for spring and even upon being asked today, you simply repeated what you said before only adding that spring was "wishy-washy".

Yeah, I repeated what I said before, because htat is what I find scummy about SL. I'm not going to make up new charges everytime someone asks me why she is scummy.

I find you the most wishy-washy of all. You've made cases against Scheherazade (Post 32), CF Riot (Post 40), Artem (the whole Kair-Artem argument), and pointed things out about other players, yet you stick your guns to arguably your weakest case?

Yeah, I mention who I am suspicious of. We have already discussed that there are 3 scum, is that big of a surprise that I have more than one person on my suspect list? I, however, am not sitting here and ho humming over who I will vote for. I made my decision, and you can argue all you want about how "weak" my case is, but at least I didn't have to get other poeple's approval first.

Not to mention deflecting accusations weakly (Post 54 and 57) and getting annoyed by bringing up past arguments (Post 17, 18 and 53). I'm not seeing anything redeeming about Sekinj's play, and don't see how her playing is helping the town.

Vote: Sekinj

.

So, the best lynch you can pick at this point is the person you don't think is "helping the town"? You are voting me be I am impatient? and that makes me scum?


No, Siree, it looks much more like you didn't like what I had to say about your fence sitting, and so went back to make up a case on me. I didn't even criticize you very strongly, becuase i didn't see anything scummy before now. I'm very surprised you reacted so strongly, But you blew up about it, decided I was scum out of all of those you mentioned, and went back and drug up everything you didn't like about me.

[sekinj]

I agree with Shez's point about a compromise. As bad as it would be for me personally, I would rather be today's lynch than have a no lynch. Of course, I would much rather lynch actual scum (spring) rather me a polarizing townie. However, I will never be against getting rid of distractions to the town.

[sekinj]

@SL - I liked your cartoon also... very cool, and well put together. I like the disclaimer too Maybe I will feel shame after hearing what the mod says...

[sekinj]

So... Apparently my lynch would confirm Wall-e as scum and partially confirm Shez as scum?

[sekinj]

@sekinj: Where do you get that your lynch will confirm Wall-E as scum? I never said that. Wall-E is completely unrelated to your lynch as far as I can tell.

well, I don't see the connection either. germy is the one who said that. I don't understand it at all.

At this point, if sekinj is mafia => Wall-E is town. The converse, and contrapositive, in this case, are also true. Which is why I'm voting sekinj instead of Scheherazade or Scigatt. I'm hoping we can go into Day 2 with Wall-E, myself, Kairyuu, and mykonian as "confirmed townies," and rally the rest of the Town into lynching the remaining scum.

I also don't like how shez seems to love everything that wall-e is saying, like it's gospel or something.


And @Wall-E - I don't appreciate your reasons being kept secret. If you have a case against me, then bring it, otherwise unvote. I'm not going to sit here mute while you continue voting for me with zero justification.

[sekinj]

I also don't like how shez seems to love everything that wall-e is saying, like it's gospel or something.

scratch this. she just questioned him on something

[sekinj]

I also don't like how shez seems to love everything that wall-e is saying, like it's gospel or something.

scratch this. she just questioned him on something

actually - scratch the scratch, she was questioning germy not wall-e.

[sekinj]

@CF - I really dislike being questioned in this manner. I don't need to be prompted as to the topics I'm going to discuss. And since I'm first on your list of scum you are not actually wanting the answers to those questions in good faith. Instead you are trying to trip me up in some way. It also allows you to look like you are active and scumhunting while providing no reasoning or position of your own.

However, I will answer anyway...

Right now I'm curious about the interactions between wall-e and Shez. and I'm still suspicious of you.

I learned SL was town.

[sekinj]

<snip>Not to mention the fact that

if

you're town you should welcome me trying to trip you up rather than be annoyed by it, because you've got no reason to "slip-up" since you're a truth telling townie with nothing to hide,<snip>

Tell that to SL

[sekinj]

Hmm...

Okay, what the heck is the case on Scheherazade? I've read hers and afat's posts but nothing seems scummy enough to warrant this attention.

Are you really just waiting for everyone to re-explain themselves? read the freaking thread.

Hint: Kair had the biggest case, but is now wussing out.

[sekinj]

Posts in isolation from Shez regarding Wall-e

p24 - "Hello, Mr. Secretive. I see you're out to make friends. I'd like to hear those reasons you mentioned as soon as they're declassified. I hope I'm not asking for anything sensitive, but you would have advocated lynching germy for his softclaim on day one? What are your reasons for that? "

----She let's Wall-e slide for give ZERO rationale to his vote. Passively asks for reasons regarding his opinion on germy

p25 - "@Wall-E: I follow you so far. Are you unhappy now that we haven't lynched germy? Has there been anything in this game so far in which germy's information would have been crucial?"

----Looks like she is waiting for wall-e to give her a reason to agree with him.

Maybe I am just reading these wrong, but Shez just seems to be leting wall-e get away with saying anything. Instead of challenging him on something she seems to be trying to make him happy?? Both of these posts to me are Shez giving wall-e clearance to vote without justification and clearance to advocate the lynch of germy who most would say was in 3rd place for most confirmed townie. Why does Wall-e get the kid-gloce treatment from Shez? WHy is she afraid of hurting his feelings?!??!

[sekinj]

Take it with whatever you want. I like how you are so ready to throw her under the bus in order to show how townie you are. You haven't stated any REAL suspicion of her yet, but as soon as something is mentioned tying you together, there you are with rope in hand.

This is all I can find that you have said about Shez (in reponse to Kair I believe):

I agree with your comments about zade. It may be a misunderstanding on zade's part, but I'd have to hear how from him/her before making that judgment call for sure.

Way to sit the fence.

[sekinj]

I'd prefer you take it with a rope around your neck.

[sekinj]

So you went from wanting zade dead to wanting me dead, then?

No. I went from not liking the interaction between the two of you to suspecting you of being scum. Not a huge leap. You just gave me a nice set-up line

twice

and I just couldn't resist it the second time.

Dismissing my arguement because you suspect me of being scum is just an easy/lazy way out.

[sekinj]

can you name a player you think is town?

I think germy, kair, and myk are town.

Can you name a player you have not attacked yet?

Yes. Germy. He softclaimed early and I beleived him. Other than that there is not another player I have not

been suspicious of

since I had no answers going in to this game, and can only judge players based on their actions. So far, the three above are the three I am most sure of.

Finally, can you name a player you think would vote along with you if you tried to wagon me?

I wouldn't pretend to know the minds of the other players or try to FORCE them in any direction. The best I can do is present cases on thsoe I suspect of beign scum. I would hope that many other players would be able to see the same scumminess that I see. and actually the more you respond in these ways the more scummy I think you look.

[sekinj]

My vote: definitely conclusions, not running stream

[sekinj]

@wall - voting without reason seems distateful to me. and it did from the beginning. This is exactly why voting with no reason or "secret" reasons is always suspect and should never be ignored. Now, it just looks like you were voting for me to see how easy a lynch I was. Now you unvote and claim me town? don't like the lack of reasoning or the buddying.

[sekinj]

So... are we done talking about the lack of case against me? great.

I'm still supicious of Wall. I didn't like his vote against me, but I also don't specifically know what in my responses made him unvote.

I think many of Sig's comments have been ignored becuase of his lurking. I know earlier when he wasn't making sense, I didn't bother questioning him because I figured he was still trying to catch up in the reading or something. I always have a hard time reading lurkers, but I can definitely see how his comments have been anti-town and confusing. I think if he posted more we would be able to see it more clearly, but I woudln't have a problem with a scig lynch today.

[sekinj]

Your attitude has certainly vindicated you in the eyes of a few players, but that last exchange didn't exactly come out in your favour. Wouldn't you prefer that the town discuss your case a bit more? If it's rubbish, it ought to crumble.

It already has crumbled. I really don't what you are still trying to discuss.

And - as far as meta goes, yes. everyone always thinks I'm scum. *shrug* I guess I have some room for improvement, but right now I'm just playing as "me". However, I usually don't get the "Active Lurking" label like I have been in this game. That is difficult for me to argue against in a game like this where many of the players write books with every post. Yes, I keep up with the game. Yes, I try to post everyday. Is that active lurking? I don't believe so. but, I'll take myk's criticism with grace and try to improve as a player by making more cases, ectetera... Just sometimes I don't see the point when other players have already made very good cases...

[sekinj]

What if we wait for the replacement and ask for a deadline extension? It's not like we are lacking for discussion.

[sekinj]

Zade is my top suspect. She cloaks everything in very PC language which I think is a passive agressive way to attack while not looking bad.

I would be happy with a scig lynch. The only reason I'm not totally on board is his lack of participation, which makes it hard for me to be convinced that he is being scummy and not just very lazy. But, he woudl be a good lynch for the info it would give us, and becuase it would definitely get rid of an anti-town player. I believe there is above a 50% chance that he is scum.

CF - I am uncomfortable with how set he is in his opinions. He also seems very desperate for the game to continue. Althought the replacement deal is commendable and I'm very glad we got a replacement for Scig quickly, it still makes me nervous that CF seems so invested in this game. Are their other power rols left that he could be

if

he is

not

scum??

Walle - I'm still suspicious of, because I don't exactly know what I said that caused him to unvote so quickly. I guess I just have very superior charisma, reasoning and convincing skills. but that is noted for later... will continue to see how he plays.

[sekinj]

@wall - what are you trying to say? no one has ever accused me of being stubborn....

@Zade - lol. actually you are almost proving my point with that comment.

[sekinj]

Unvote: Vote: zade

Let's find out if you're telling the truth, shall we?

agreed.

unvote, vote: Zade

[sekinj]

*feels abandoned*

[sekinj]

......

unvote

........

[sekinj]

I was surprised when SP claimed because two people had previously cautioned against it.
I also thought Zade's reation was strange, like she already knew... I dont' understand that.

I also think that we

do

gain information from a Zade lynch.
town-flip: confirm nat as scum, SP as town, Shan as probable scum...
scum-flip: CF as probable scum

So, by lynching Zade we should be able to find two scum.... that sounds pretty good to me.

vote: Zade

[sekinj]

stop talking so fast!

[sekinj]

what a clusterfuck

thanks sha-HAIR-ah-zod

(pronounciation is key!)

I think it's SHEH - HEH - RA - ZADE

[sekinj]

@myk - I did state my reason. Zade was at the top of my suspect list before all the claim stuff came about. Then in post 715 I stated my after-claim reasoning...

[sekinj]

The thing said that made me think the most was when myk said that we shoudl lynch the scummiest player. I've been in games where I didn't follow that advice and it turned out bad for the town. So, although I think Zade would be a good lynch, I agree that Scig was the scummiest player, and Nat has only added to that with his claim.

unvote

We still have a week until deadline... so I don't think there shoudl be any rush to hammer.

[sekinj]

Just skimming right now. I'd be fine with a mass claim

[sekinj]

I am logged on and I see your message.

I am vanilla town as well.

Shanba - you are up next.

[sekinj]

@wall-e: Are you saying we shoudl just go down the list of claimed vanilla townies lynching each one until we hit scum? how many mis-lynches can we get and still win?

[sekinj]

First of all, the last few days went by WAY TOO FAST! I was out of town Friday through Sunday, and everytime Igot a chance to check the thread we were at night again! So, I appreciate those who are waiting for me to chime in this time, I just think that it should have happened sooner.

In any case, I agree with Germy's original plan of lynching the person who was blocked if there was no night kill. I think that if we had done that, the game would already be over.

So, we wait to see who germy will block, then I think we shoudl hammer CF.

[wifom] I also think it's interesting that Zade WAS so willing to be lynched, but never actually was, then her main attacker died at nk. [/wifom]

[sekinj]

Vote: Shez

[sekinj]

@wolf - If germy has been playing us, then his "blocks" mean nothing!!

[sekinj]

I meant, they weren't actually blocks. it's frustrating because I feel very set up. I'm the last unconfirmed townie. Do we have any more mislynches or are we are lylo?

[sekinj]

*whew* It's hard being the only scum left. expecially since I'm not good at setups or math :/

I guess I ended up killing kair because I believed the talk about it being "inevitable" town win at that point, and figured I could at least be scummy enough to deny kair the chance to lynch Zade... as he So wanted to do I guess I had a chance afterwall *shrug* lessons learned