Mini #682: C9++ (Game Over!)

[germy]

Sche - that's what I said.

[Scheherazade]

I'm sorry, I missed your post by posting on a stale window.

[SilverPhoenix]

@Everyone: Why are you all unvoting Zade? Just look at the scum slip! That may be the most damning evidence of the game thus far.

To add to what I have said about this statement, it was only me and mykonian that unvoted, and myko did so because he didn't want the lynch to happen without him being there.
To be honest, finding the "slip" to be the most scummy thing so far in this game is pretty hysterical to say the least (not funny hysterical). I know the deadline approaches, but I'm getting the feeling like you are falling apart. There isn't a reason for it really, or at least in your situation, I don't think there would be. Unless you are really scum.

FOS: Kairyuu

Your behavior is starting to become illogical. Why?

[sekinj]

@Sekinj: You each have two. I am much more suspicious of Zade than of you (especially after what I just mentioned in my last post) and think that it would give us much more info if we lynched Zade, but deadline is getting worryingly close, and we need a lynch to get any information whatsoever.

Yes, you are right. I was mistaken in the votes against us. I looked at the latest VC and missed the unvotes of Silver and Myk. I agree that it is a reasonable move to vote the person with the most votes in order to avoid the no lynch. Whn i thought shez still had 4 I thought it seemed scummy that you were "keeping your options open" by saying that you would be willing to vote me.

[sekinj]

@Sekinj:

"So I'm just trying to figure out if you are just townies butting heads, or if one of you is trying to intentionally trip the other up." (Post 166)

Your opinion only changed when you voted Kairyuu for making the "confirm my alignment" remark. Now that is resolved, what about Artem makes you think that he's scum? I mean, you weren't sure before you suspected this comment. In fact, you agreed with Artem when you cast the vote, implying strongly that you thought he was town. Now that Kairyuu's comment is explained, you jump on Artem? What changed your mind, please?

I've been trying to figure them out all along. I think the exchange didn't look right for two townies. When Kair made the godfather remark, I jumped on him because it seemed that he was the scum. Now that that is cleared up, and I beleive Kair's mason claim, I think that Artem was the scum in that exchange. He is not my top suspect, but I do believe he is scum.

Also, encouraging someone to vote for the person with the most blame is scummy. It's not a good argument to say "that's what most people believe" in any context, much less this one where, as scum, you would stand to gain from a lynch made from ignorance rather than logic.

Again you misunderstand me. I wasn't encouraging Kair to vote anywhere, and I wasn't arguing a case. I was pointing out what looked like to me a move to keep his options open. I would have asked for clarification or pointed it out no matter who the votes were for. I thought shez still had 4 votes, and I had two. from that perspective it looked odd that Kair was broadcasting the fact that he would switch to me if necessary before deadline. Now that Kair pointed out the unvotes I missed, it is a null point. I completely understand voting for someone simply to avoid a no lynch.

[mykonian]

Spring is becoming my top suspect. she is a bit hasty, and uses a weak reason to vote Artem. This also from the fact that she thinks Kai confirmed. Still she kept her options open in case SP would make a case against us. Weird. she is also attacking Kai a bit, so it is not that weird she would vote for one of us.

I get the feeling that she does all this also to stay of Sekinj's wagon? Still see mentions she doesn't like Sekinj's posts. From this I guess that at least one of zade and CF are scum. Let's see day 2 for that. After this, Spring is gone for some posts.

I'm opposed to a Sekinj lynch. I don't think the reasons to vote her are strong, and I got a very pro town feeling about her, which I'm not going to explain, because it is mostly a feeling, and for reasons possibly even weaker then the reasons to vote her. I'm not a fan of zade, CF, Scigatt, and Spring.

I

vote spring

, for reasons stated above, and for plays I didn't like before, but that I haven't reread.

[iamausername]

Votecount #14!

Scheherazade (2) - Kairyuu, Artem
sekinj (2) - CF Riot, Scheherazade
springlullaby (2) - sekinj, mykonian
Artem (1) - springlullaby
Scigatt (1) - germy

Not Voting (4) - SilverPhoenix, Ku_F, Scigatt, wolframnhart

7 to lynch.

CLICK HERE FOR DEADLINE CLOCK

.

[Kairyuu]

-Punches self in face-

I really need to look at the possible setups before I make an accusation.

I forgot that it takes 6 Ts to make 2 scum, which would not be possible, so I apologize Zade. I got overexcited when I saw what looked like an accidental admission of scumminess.

[Artem]

Had unexpected V/LA over the weekend.

However, I am going to have to keep Sche near the top of my list, simply based on the voting patterns. Since Kairyuu and mykonian were the proponents of the lynch, my interpretations are either:

1. the claimed masons are mafia
2. Artem is mafia
3. the mafia were reluctant to cast a vote on someone a townie was gunning for
4. Sche is mafia.

So, I would hazard that: if Sche is Town => Artem is mafia. The contrapositive would not hold, because since Artem's vote was so temporary, I could envision mafia casting a quick vote on a scumbuddy.

germy, can you please elaborate on this?

I've been trying to figure them out all along.

I think the exchange didn't look right for two townies.

When Kair made the godfather remark, I jumped on him because it seemed that he was the scum. Now that that is cleared up, and I beleive Kair's mason claim, I think that Artem was the scum in that exchange. He is not my top suspect, but I do believe he is scum.

Can you please present some examples for the bolded part?

Also, Kair's claim has been cleared for some time already, yet, you didn't bring up the suspicion of me until a handful of posts ago. Why?

At this point, I'm becoming quite suspicious of SL. The majority of her posts are filler posts or posts promising content. She is yet to answer my question in #321.

Also,

I'm not trying to excuse myself for anything as I don't see what I have to excuse myself for, you seemed to ask why I prodded people, I'm telling you.

is missing the point. Kair is accusing you of posting nothing but prods, not asking you why you're prodding others.

I'm also going to throw out the possibility of SL and Sekinj being scum-buddies. The original argument was most likely a way of distancing and both have been largely ignoring each other recently. In particular, SL just hangs up on the whole argument:

@sekinj, what you say in #102 is not 'quite' ( which is to say, 'simply not true'), check post #34 in which I've explained my vote even before you dismiss it. That said , I actually like how you are standing your ground but not so much that analysis of yours which didn't say much.

But I'm more interested in Artem at the moment.
Unvote, Vote Artem

So, SL doesn't like the analysis post but likes the fact that Sekinj posted it? It feels like a scum patting their buddy on the back going: "Good job, you've posted something. I'm going to leave you alone for now."

FoS: SL

[Scigatt]

---

Edify - Scigatt

Edify did very little but attack my claim outright, and Scigatt's "non-voting status" comment really irked me. On the one hand, I agree with his recent post saying that afatchic or Sche were suspicious, yet Scigatt's agreement implies to me: if Scigatt mafia <=> Sche mafia.

Scigatt: we have three days left until Twilight. Are you

still

happy not voting? I hope not. At this point, my vote remains on you until you do.

I'm no gonna throw around my vote like you apparently want me to do...for some reason

FoS germy

. However, sekinj, from what glances I've seen of his posts and cases against him, looks interesting at least. I'll look at him later today.

[iamausername]

-=wolframnhart has been prodded for the first time=-

[springlullaby]

1.

Can you please point out where I'm being pre-emptive or OMGUSy?

The post in which you vote Kairyuu is here:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 20#1299920

You see, in the above post the reasons for your vote on Kair are nowhere near clear to me. It is only one post later that you summarize your reason to vote Kairyuu. I think this is a scumtell because it is easy for scum to be argumentative, and scum often think they can get away with a vote when they 'win' a discussion point - however in this process they often forget to be assertive, that is to say to try to determine if the point they have 'won' can be in anyway indicative of the 'opponent's alignment.

Notice here the deliberate use of the word scum in regard to Kairyuu in the post I linked, this is pretty scummy I think because even taking into consideration the reason you cited afterward, I don't imagine I would be that sure of Kairyuu's alignment at that point.

Now, to explain why I said Artem's vote looked preemptively OMGUS-y, if you look back at the Artem/Kairyuu standoff, you can notice an escalation on both part, with FOS' and HOS' thrown in by both, but the origin of the dispute is Kairyuu's comment saying something along the line of 'I will keep an eye on Artem', right after Artem's first crappy vote on Kairyuu. I think Artem was simply frustrated he couldn't get Kairyuu to drop his suspicions of him, and this kind of frustration is more often scum's frustration than not.

If I were better town, I would do an historic of the dispute with quotes, but I can't summon the righteous energy right now, so you'll have to go verify my say yourself.


2.

You are doing exactly what Artem did at one point. You say that I played badly because I didn't act like you claim you would have. First of all, you probably can't prove that you would have been irritated at having to claim. And secondly, I don't have to conform to your standards in order to be playing properly. Besides, I'm having too much fun in this game to put myself down because one player says I've made a bad move.

I think you are referring to Artem's 'this is exactly what I did as scum' comment addressing you. Well you see, at the time he made it, it struck me as strange because I used the exact same argument against him in Newbie 588. But you see, in Newbie 588 he wondered at my using that argument the same way you did, and I think he was being sincere, because it is certainly not a 'standard' argument coming from town and my using it is kinda an anomaly- this makes me think that him using that argument is more likely a scum 'copycatting' an argument town once used against himself than genuine thinking.

---------------------

I have to agree with Myko. So far you are voting me because "it's more gut feeling than anything else at this point"... Are you saying that with everything that's going on in the game at this point, your strongest case (and hence your vote) is just a gut feeling?

Do you have something against gut feeling?

It is my opinion that at times where there is too much logic and hypothesis floating around, guts is the way to go. What do you think?

------------------------------------------------

Also,

I'm not trying to excuse myself for anything as I don't see what I have to excuse myself for, you seemed to ask why I prodded people, I'm telling you.

is missing the point. Kair is accusing you of posting nothing but prods, not asking you why you're prodding others.

Is missing the point, what I'm stating is I feel the prods I posted were warranted. I don't know what was Kair's intention since he didn't state anything clearly, but 1) I don't think I posted only prods in this game 2) are you accusing me of doing so? If it is the case, do state it clearly instead of borrowing other people's word.

I'm also going to throw out the possibility of SL and Sekinj being scum-buddies. The original argument was most likely a way of distancing and both have been largely ignoring each other recently.

Ignoring each other? Please quantify as I do not think it is the case.

In particular, SL just hangs up on the whole argument:

Not true.

@sekinj, what you say in #102 is not 'quite' ( which is to say, 'simply not true'), check post #34 in which I've explained my vote even before you dismiss it. That said , I actually like how you are standing your ground but not so much that analysis of yours which didn't say much.

But I'm more interested in Artem at the moment.
Unvote, Vote Artem

So, SL doesn't like the analysis post but likes the fact that Sekinj posted it? It feels like a scum patting their buddy on the back going: "Good job, you've posted something. I'm going to leave you alone for now."

FoS: SL

No, what I said was that I didn't like the analysis but like the fact that she stood her ground and didn't cede under the pressure of people calling her out. In particular, I liked the post in which she said 'yo mama' to me. That was enough for me to unvote her at the time, and move onto a juicier case, you.

-----------------------------------------

I'm willing to lynch Artem, Sekinj and Scigatt, int that order.

Artem: see above.

Sekinj: I think her posts are lackluster, nothing to make waves, but rather going with the flow, this in itself is scummy. Plus I don't like her rapid vote and unvote on Kairyuu looks like wet blanket scum, seeing an opportunity but rapidly retreating when faced with a claim.

Scigatt: scummy lurking, he is posting elsewhere too.

While afatchic was somewhat scummy, I'm cool with Shez, like her read.

[springlullaby]

Spring is becoming my top suspect. she is a bit hasty, and uses a weak reason to vote Artem. This also from the fact that she thinks Kai confirmed. Still she kept her options open in case SP would make a case against us. Weird. she is also attacking Kai a bit, so it is not that weird she would vote for one of us.

Never said I thought Kair was confirmed, I said he was confirmed by you.
I'm not sure what you are saying with the 'it's not that weird she would vote for one of us'.

I get the feeling that she does all this also to stay of Sekinj's wagon? Still see mentions she doesn't like Sekinj's posts. From this I guess that at least one of zade and CF are scum. Let's see day 2 for that. After this, Spring is gone for some posts.

I don't understand what you are saying here. Please explain better.

I'm opposed to a Sekinj lynch. I don't think the reasons to vote her are strong, and I got a very pro town feeling about her, which I'm not going to explain, because it is mostly a feeling, and for reasons possibly even weaker then the reasons to vote her. I'm not a fan of zade, CF, Scigatt, and Spring.

I

vote spring

, for reasons stated above, and for plays I didn't like before, but that I haven't reread.

--------------

@sekinj, I'm not sure why you are voting me, care to elaborate?

[sekinj]

@SL - So.... you are actually saying that yo mama made you not vote for me??



















ROFL.

[sekinj]

@SL - this is why I'm suspicious of you:

From my post #43:
her recent shout-outs to the lurkers while not posting large amounts herself and she seems to go back and forth on germy a lot. first he's town, and then he's scummy, and now hes back to town. She has also made numerous posts with significant acusations which lack any reasoning or backing (see posts in isolation 2, 15, 20 and 21). Some of those she has followed up on, but some remain unexplained.


I didn't see enough glaring in each post to do a PBPA, but I don't like your deflecting, and wishy-washiness. It also seems like you are trying to skate under the radar at times. I also think that is it odd that you and CF both think I am scummy but have never addressed each other directly.... I am suspicious of that lack of interaction.

[sekinj]

@Artem - I'm not ignoring you. I have a longer answer that I will post later tongiht.

[CF Riot]

I get the feeling that she does all this also to stay of Sekinj's wagon? Still see mentions she doesn't like Sekinj's posts. From this I guess that

at least one of zade and CF are scum

. Let's see day 2 for that. After this, Spring is gone for some posts.

The italicized is

if

Spring is scum correct?

Would still like a Sek lynch. Will vote Scigatt. Don't see anything against Zade. Don't see anything for or against Artem. Wolf needs to post. Will reread SL, but I don't remember anything suspicious about him right now. If BOTH the claimed masons will give me their reasons to vote one person, their opinion will carry a lot of weight with me.

SP, Scigatt, and Wolf

really

need to get a vote down, even if you're unsure of your read right now. Deadline is running up on us, and right now everyone that's voting (except one) would have to be voting the EXACT SAME person for a lynch to go through.

[springlullaby]

@SL - So.... you are actually saying that yo mama made you not vote for me??

Well yes, struck me as townish at the time.

@SL - this is why I'm suspicious of you:

From my post #43:
her recent shout-outs to the lurkers while not posting large amounts herself and she seems to go back and forth on germy a lot. first he's town, and then he's scummy, and now hes back to town. She has also made numerous posts with significant acusations which lack any reasoning or backing (see posts in isolation 2, 15, 20 and 21). Some of those she has followed up on, but some remain unexplained.

It is true that I change my mind a lot, that's kinda how I think and I don't particularly mind displaying my doubts, but concerning germy, I changed my mind only once. I have gone from 'pretty sure he is town' to 'looking scummier and scummier but I'm not willing to pursue the point'. I explained that in the post I retracted.

So you think changing one's mind is a scumtell?

Please point out what you think I have left unexplained, and I'll explain.

I didn't see enough glaring in each post to do a PBPA, but I don't like your deflecting, and wishy-washiness. It also seems like you are trying to skate under the radar at times. I also think that is it odd that you and CF both think I am scummy but have never addressed each other directly.... I am suspicious of that lack of interaction.

Lol, isn't it ironic that what you reproach me is almost a mirror of what I reproach you? In objectivity, I have never tried to skate under the radar, and I took stance on every issue. If you are on about my prodding lurkers, I already explained that I felt their lack of posting was more than suspicious at the time, and specially specified in these posts that I was going to post my thought after them.

Wishy-washyness, if you mean germy, I have explained up above.

As for CF, I think he reads town and have seen nothing I wanted to address him about till now.

Bold mine.

I have stated that I was willing to lynch you, what do you think of it?

[sekinj]

I have stated that I was willing to lynch you, what do you think of it?

I think that's mean.

[mykonian]

I get the feeling that she does all this also to stay of Sekinj's wagon? Still see mentions she doesn't like Sekinj's posts. From this I guess that

at least one of zade and CF are scum

. Let's see day 2 for that. After this, Spring is gone for some posts.

The italicized is

if

Spring is scum correct?

actually no. It originated somewhere before, and is more or less a startpoint for my thinking. I looked how everything fitted in, but there are a lot of uncertainties, off course I don't know if it is true, but it is the only hold I have today. Day two has some real evidence, this is only guessing, based on assumptions. The less assumptions, the better the guess...

And spring: considering Kai confirmed, and saying that some other person confirmed Kai is exactly the same thing. You did use the word confirm, in stead of a more neutral word, like to say someone to be town, or something.

[wolframnhart]

Really sorry guys, i got prodded in a couple games. I let myself lag and i hate that. So lemme dive in on what I think right now on Zade:

He began lurking and eventually left because Kairyuu was rather too rabid and the majority of the rest of you rather too eager to play ducklings.

Zade posts that afatchic lurked because Kair became rabid after him, and others folowed, not the most pro-town thing in my view. If you are townie, defend yourself. If a player goes all quiet because attention is on them, that imho is more of an "oh shit they found me! what do i do???" thing to do.

@Sekinj: I feel it is. I fully admit that I'd be cautious to hammer, but I hoped that by presenting a case against you and voting, you might say more that would either fully convince me or make me double-guess myself.

After voting Sek (and even apologizing is Zade annoyed her) Zade posts this up. If a person wasn't fully convinced, why vote in the first place? Why would you want to have someone speak up more to convince you? And why especially if you though someone was scummy would you wan to have hat person possibly make you double-guess yourself? Seems more like a set up to retract her vote later on if no one would vote Sek.

As for why I didn't vote for Artem: I haven't made up my mind about him, yet. I fully admit it. He might be scum, but I don't think that I know enough to state so. He might be town, but I'm a long way from gambling on it. I'd rather address you for the time being, for aforementioned reasons.

She isn't fully convinced on Sek but she votes her. She isn't fully convinced on Artem, bu she doesn't vote him?

I didn't much agree with afatchic being scum just because of active lurking, but with his predecessors posts i haven' really found anything saying either were exactly pro-town either.

vote Scheherazade

[SilverPhoenix]

SP... really need to get a vote down, even if you're unsure of your read right now.

With the votes evenly divided over Scheherazade, Sekinj, and springlullaby, and cases for each one of them and Artem flying every which way, I feel that we as a town aren't having the same conversation. People are going steadfast in their opinions of the others and no one is convincing anyone: a dangerous situation for the town. This lynch is

hard!

Certainly the hardest I have ever participated in. But I'll make a deal: I will decide tonight my order of lynch-worthy people, and vote for someone. I can say with certainty that the list will have Artem, springlullaby, zade, and sekinj on it, maybe others. But I'm going to need to brood heavily over what has been said, especially in the last couple of pages as people start to get ancy over a No Lynch.

[sekinj]

I'm no gonna throw around my vote like you apparently want me to do...for some reason

FoS germy

. However, sekinj, from what glances I've seen of his posts and cases against him, looks interesting at least. I'll look at him later today.

choosing someone 3 days until deadline is hardly "throwing your vote around". and latching on to me right here, without even stating why just looks like you are going for the easy lynch.

Fos: scig

[springlullaby]

And spring: considering Kai confirmed, and saying that some other person confirmed Kai is exactly the same thing. You did use the word confirm, in stead of a more neutral word, like to say someone to be town, or something.

No it's not the same, at all.
Kairyuu is confirmed by Mykonian =/= Kairyuu is confirmed town.
I don't see your point, do you have a more appropriate word to describe yours and Kair's situation?

[sekinj]

SP... really need to get a vote down, even if you're unsure of your read right now.

With the votes evenly divided over Scheherazade, Sekinj, and springlullaby, and cases for each one of them and Artem flying every which way, I feel that we as a town aren't having the same conversation. People are going steadfast in their opinions of the others and no one is convincing anyone: a dangerous situation for the town. This lynch is

hard!

Certainly the hardest I have ever participated in. But I'll make a deal: I will decide tonight my order of lynch-worthy people, and vote for someone. I can say with certainty that the list will have Artem, springlullaby, zade, and sekinj on it, maybe others. But I'm going to need to brood heavily over what has been said, especially in the last couple of pages as people start to get ancy over a No Lynch.

SP: I haven't seen anything scummy from you so far, but I don't liek this post. You name everyone that anyone has been suspicious of, and claim difficulty in chosing. This looks like you are prentending ambivilence and that you are stalling in order to see where others put their votes, or if they will change their votes. Now... I'm not even going to Fos you for that because I havn't seen anything else scummy from you... but I don't like this post... it looks too much like a false dilemma.