Mini #682: C9++ (Game Over!)

[springlullaby]

sekinj, since you are around, mind replying to my 367 beside in joking?

[Scheherazade]

@wolframhart: It was an "oh-God-they're-ganging-up-on-me" feeling that caused afatchic to leave. See post 109, where he says so himself. I never meant to say or imply that running away when someone attacks you in this game is helpful for the town--exactly the opposite in this case. I meant to point out that there is always more than one possible explanation for something like afatchic's posts in this game. If the case against me/afatchic is strong on other grounds, then by all means, it's logical to assume that the lack of a strong defence is scummy (the case you mentioned). If, however, your case rests on an assumption that's likely wrong as not, then perhaps you should wait a little bit before passing judgement. But maybe that's just me, not you.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by your parenthetical remark "(and even apologizing is Zade annoyed her)," so I'm only going to address it for the time being by saying that it's my intention to find scum and not to annoy people. I apologised for the latter, but certainly not for the former.

As for the rest of that paragraph... Only the scum know that they're completely correct about somebody's alignment. I should explain that statement, though. I meant that at the time that "I'd be cautions to hammer." I don't mean that I didn't believe that Sekinj was mafia. I meant that now she was under scrutiny, her reaction would figure into my analysis of her. I kept open in my mind the possibility that Sekinj could say or do something to make me reconsider my judgement. I would only be "fully convinced" after I had seen her reaction to being scrutinised. Am I still being unclear?

As for the Artem remark, I hope the above partly explained what I mean. There's a difference between "I think you are mafia, but I'm not excluding the possibility that you'll change my mind" and "I can't get a strong read either way on this person." So, on Artem I wasn't "not fully convinced." I said myself, I didn't even know if he was mafia. In Sekinj's case, I wasn't "fully convinced" because I wanted to leave open the possibility that she could change my mind.

Our styles differ, I understand, but what you see as a contradiction is a misunderstanding.

So, you voted for me because you thought:
-I was calling afatchic's behaviour pro-town
-I voted without being convinced of scumminess
-I contradicted myself by voting for Sekinj, but not Artem
-I haven't been properly pro-town.

The first and third were misunderstandings on your part, perhaps as a result of my unclear language.

I was convinced. I admit, I didn't give a very detailed post with my thinking until maybe 327, partly because people seemed to vote on less in this thread than I posted when I initially voted and partly because, as I mentioned, I wanted to be sure that Sekinj wasn't going to say something that would completely change my mind after I voted for her.

As for the last one, I don't really know what to say. I'm not sure what you're looking for. Even if I did, I think I'd keep at what I'm doing until I'd learned better myself. If you have specific criticisms that I could use to improve my contributions to the town, then I'd be happy to listen. I'm not going to jump at anybody's bark just to prove that I'm town, though.

[springlullaby]

Err, did afatchic leave on purpose?

[sekinj]

I've been trying to figure them out all along.

I think the exchange didn't look right for two townies.

When Kair made the godfather remark, I jumped on him because it seemed that he was the scum. Now that that is cleared up, and I beleive Kair's mason claim, I think that Artem was the scum in that exchange. He is not my top suspect, but I do believe he is scum.

Can you please present some examples for the bolded part?

I went back and looked, but I couldn't find quotes for you. really if I had something more firm you would be higher up on my LoS. As it is I just have vibes, which i know are weak. I just dont' think you both are town.

Also, Kair's claim has been cleared for some time already, yet, you didn't bring up the suspicion of me until a handful of posts ago. Why?

In my reply to CF inpost 335 I mentioned some people I was suspicious of. After I came back the next day I realized I had left you off. so I was correcting that.

I'm also going to throw out the possibility of SL and Sekinj being scum-buddies. The original argument was most likely a way of distancing and both have been largely ignoring each other recently. In particular, SL just hangs up on the whole argument:

@sekinj, what you say in #102 is not 'quite' ( which is to say, 'simply not true'), check post #34 in which I've explained my vote even before you dismiss it. That said , I actually like how you are standing your ground but not so much that analysis of yours which didn't say much.

But I'm more interested in Artem at the moment.
Unvote, Vote Artem

So, SL doesn't like the analysis post but likes the fact that Sekinj posted it? It feels like a scum patting their buddy on the back going: "Good job, you've posted something. I'm going to leave you alone for now."

FoS: SL

the sek/SL scumbuddy thing is just lame. didn't we already discuss that??

[SilverPhoenix]

SP: I haven't seen anything scummy from you so far, but I don't liek this post. You name everyone that anyone has been suspicious of, and claim difficulty in chosing. This looks like you are prentending ambivilence and that you are stalling in order to see where others put their votes, or if they will change their votes. Now... I'm not even going to Fos you for that because I havn't seen anything else scummy from you... but I don't like this post... it looks too much like a false dilemma.

False dilemma? You don't call zade with 3, sekinj and spring each with 2, Artem and Scigatt each with 1 a dilemma? We need 7 votes from 11 (Ku_F is pretty much out) so we don't need division among the ranks for this lynch. I'm not going to just eenie-meenie-minie-moe it either like myko seems to be doing (not a good sign, btw). My post may seem to be a complaint, but it is merely reflecting the situation as it stands. I don't know how you can't agree with that.

[sekinj]

sekinj, since you are around, mind replying to my 367 beside in joking?

I dont' know what kind of response you want. I obviously don't like that you want to lynch me... I think you are wrong and misguided...

[sekinj]

SP: I haven't seen anything scummy from you so far, but I don't liek this post. You name everyone that anyone has been suspicious of, and claim difficulty in chosing. This looks like you are prentending ambivilence and that you are stalling in order to see where others put their votes, or if they will change their votes. Now... I'm not even going to Fos you for that because I havn't seen anything else scummy from you... but I don't like this post... it looks too much like a false dilemma.

False dilemma? You don't call zade with 3, sekinj and spring each with 2, Artem and Scigatt each with 1 a dilemma? We need 7 votes from 11 (Ku_F is pretty much out) so we don't need division among the ranks for this lynch. I'm not going to just eenie-meenie-minie-moe it either like myko seems to be doing (not a good sign, btw). My post may seem to be a complaint, but it is merely reflecting the situation as it stands. I don't know how you can't agree with that.

I think it's supicious when people keep their options THAT open. I'm anxious to see how you decide to place your vote and the reasoning behind it.

[springlullaby]

sekinj, since you are around, mind replying to my 367 beside in joking?

I dont' know what kind of response you want. I obviously don't like that you want to lynch me... I think you are wrong and misguided...

1.'Wrong and misguided' are word characterize a townie, if you think that of me, why are you voting me then?

2.In the post, I have addressed other questions to you (bolded text). I'd also like you to react to answer to your suspicions.

[sekinj]

In the post, I have addressed other questions to you (bolded text). I'd also like you to react to answer to your suspicions.

Ahh! got it. I'll respond to it. I didn't know why you were pushing me so much about how I felt about you wanting to lynch me. responses to the bolded up coming....

[Kairyuu]

@SL:

is missing the point. Kair is accusing you of posting nothing but prods, not asking you why you're prodding others.

QFT

Is missing the point, what I'm stating is I feel the prods I posted were warranted. I don't know what was Kair's intention since he didn't state anything clearly, but 1) I don't think I posted only prods in this game 2) are you accusing me of doing so? If it is the case, do state it clearly instead of borrowing other people's word.

Except that Artem is exactly right. Examples include:

Prod: afatchic

I'm putting my posting my thoughts on hold until Kayryuu's partner has claimed.

One thing though, I'd like to hear more from our lurkers: afatchic, alvinz95, Ku_F, Scigatt, and wolframnhart.

Five lurkers in a 12 people town is too disproportionate for my liking, especially with a claim on the table.

Prod: alvinz95, Ku_F, Scigatt

Comon guys, don't be annoying and lame, post.

I'll post something bigger later, I want these people to post first. I have to big suspects as for now.

Those are three entire posts from you, where all you do is prod other players.

I think you are referring to Artem's 'this is exactly what I did as scum' comment addressing you. Well you see, at the time he made it, it struck me as strange because I used the exact same argument against him in Newbie 588. But you see, in Newbie 588 he wondered at my using that argument the same way you did, and I think he was being sincere, because it is certainly not a 'standard' argument coming from town and my using it is kinda an anomaly- this makes me think that him using that argument is more likely a scum 'copycatting' an argument town once used against himself than genuine thinking.

But yet you haven't explained why you decided to use it after I specifically pointed out to Artem that it holds no water.

@CF Riot: I've been giving my reasons to vote Zade/afatchic since around page 2. They haven't changed (though they have been added to). Here is a quick rundown:

1. Tried to partially separate self from germy once it was apparent that people found his claim request scummy.
2. Denied this when called out.
3. Expressed lack of caring about backup power roles (said they were unimportant).
4. Began to lurk when I pressed further, going so far as to complain about being ganged up on 'every time' he posts.

-Zade replaces in-

5. Goes after sekinj (an easy target).
6. Continually repeats "I'm town."

That clarify it for you?

@nonvoters:

SP, Scigatt, and Wolf really need to get a vote down, even if you're unsure of your read right now.

Deadline is running up on us, and right now everyone that's voting (except one) would have to be voting the EXACT SAME person for a lynch to go through

.

QFT

[sekinj]

Sorry I missed these. The bold within other people's quotes is hard for me to read.

It is true that I change my mind a lot, that's kinda how I think and I don't particularly mind displaying my doubts, but concerning germy, I changed my mind only once. I have gone from 'pretty sure he is town' to 'looking scummier and scummier but I'm not willing to pursue the point'. I explained that in the post I retracted.

Why arn't you willing to pursue? you think he is acting scummy, but is not scum? or may you just knwo the rest of the town wouldn't be convinced.

So you think changing one's mind is a scumtell?

obviously not. I think leaving your options wide open and leaving your language open to interpretation is a scumtell.

Please point out what you think I have left unexplained, and I'll explain.

your post in isolation 20. Maybe you answered this in your most recent post regarding Artem. i will review.

If you are on about my prodding lurkers, I already explained that I felt their lack of posting was more than suspicious at the time, and specially specified in these posts that I was going to post my thought after them.

the thing is it seemed like you were more concerned about their actions, rather than stating your own opinions about the issue at hand. It just looked like a stalling tactic. You explicity state that you were waiting for them to post before you posted somethign bigger.

Wishy-washyness, if you mean germy, I have explained up above.

You've made some comments, but I would understand your progression much better if you had actually addressed what was leading you to think he was more and more scummy. As it is there are just random comments about germy's scumminess, and nothing that can be quantified. that's why i thought it looked wishy-washy.

I have stated that I was willing to lynch you, what do you think of it?

I think it's mean. I think you are wrong. I think you are a misguided scum if you think you can lynch this townie with these arguements.

[Scheherazade]

@Kairyuu: I think that I've missed whatever it is that makes you think that Sekinj was an easy target except for the vote cast against her by CF Riot. Is one vote against a person enough to make her an easy target? Are you then suggesting that I should have fabricated a case against someone unsuspected thus far in order to distance myself from all "easy targets" and other players?

What about her made her an "easy target" before I came along? I ask, because it looks like you're grasping at straws. If you don't find my argument against her convincing, that's fine. But you and Myk are the only people besides Sekinj who seem to think that my suspicion of her was calculated to manipulate other people rather than to lynch scum. Why?

And "6. Continually repeats "I'm town"" is just flat out false. It was said once and defended. I used it to explain my logic, that Sekinj only took a stand to defend other players when she was busy trying to discredit the real targets of her posts. That was all. Where else in the five pages since I made that post have I said "HEY! I'm town!" or anything like that? When I teased you in post 327 for doing exactly that?

[SilverPhoenix]

Okay my post numbers in the following are referring to Sekinj's isolated posts (using that menu at the bottom of the thread, which I didn't know was there until recently ).

@Kair - You are willing to switch your vote over when Shez has 4 votes and I have 2? It seems obvious where the bulk of the suspicion lies.

Interesting, considering your vote is on springlullaby without much substance at this point. Your only accusation before that was in Post 41, in which you took "a brief look" and found "nothing glaring". That was the entire basis of your vote for her at that point, and considering how you regard votes with care (Post 34), I find your vote somewhat disturbing. You then continue with recent comments about voting:

... and that you are stalling in order to see where others put their votes, or if they will change their votes.

Even though you approved of the same here:

-not really. I want to see more of how people react. then I'll vote. thanks for asking.

This lynch isn't extremely imminent yet, yet you think my stalling for a couple of hours is too ambivalent? You voted for spring and even upon being asked today, you simply repeated what you said before only adding that spring was "wishy-washy".
I find you the most wishy-washy of all. You've made cases against Scheherazade (Post 32), CF Riot (Post 40), Artem (the whole Kair-Artem argument), and pointed things out about other players, yet you stick your guns to arguably your weakest case? Not to mention deflecting accusations weakly (Post 54 and 57) and getting annoyed by bringing up past arguments (Post 17, 18 and 53). I'm not seeing anything redeeming about Sekinj's play, and don't see how her playing is helping the town.

Vote: Sekinj

.

[SilverPhoenix]

To add, Sekinj also said this in response of my "This lynch is hard" comment:

...You name everyone that anyone has been suspicious of...

Interesting, considering you have pursued cases the same people, yet not be decisive enough about any of them to warrant a vote.

[SilverPhoenix]

EBWOP: you have pursued cases

of

the same people...

[sekinj]

So basically you are voting me becuase I criticized you for sitting the fence?

@Kair - You are willing to switch your vote over when Shez has 4 votes and I have 2? It seems obvious where the bulk of the suspicion lies.

Interesting, considering your vote is on springlullaby without much substance at this point. Your only accusation before that was in Post 41, in which you took "a brief look" and found "nothing glaring". That was the entire basis of your vote for her at that point, and considering how you regard votes with care (Post 34), I find your vote somewhat disturbing.

I dont' know how my comment to Kair relates to what you said afterward. I have already explained why I said that to Kair twice now. It is a null point. I was not looking at an up to date vote count.

And by "nothing glaring", I meant not enough in each post to do a pbpa. I had just done a pbpa of CF, and then looked at SL to do one. I started it, but I didn't see it a good case to mention all of her posts. I DO however, see a good enough case to call her scum.

You then continue with recent comments about voting:

... and that you are stalling in order to see where others put their votes, or if they will change their votes.

Even though you approved of the same here:

-not really. I want to see more of how people react. then I'll vote. thanks for asking.

This lynch isn't extremely imminent yet, yet you think my stalling for a couple of hours is too ambivalent?

Saying "I don't want to vote yet"

Seventeen (17)

days from deadline is MUCH different than saying "I don't want to vote yet"

Two (2)

days from deadline. they arn't even comparable.

You voted for spring and even upon being asked today, you simply repeated what you said before only adding that spring was "wishy-washy".

Yeah, I repeated what I said before, because htat is what I find scummy about SL. I'm not going to make up new charges everytime someone asks me why she is scummy.

I find you the most wishy-washy of all. You've made cases against Scheherazade (Post 32), CF Riot (Post 40), Artem (the whole Kair-Artem argument), and pointed things out about other players, yet you stick your guns to arguably your weakest case?

Yeah, I mention who I am suspicious of. We have already discussed that there are 3 scum, is that big of a surprise that I have more than one person on my suspect list? I, however, am not sitting here and ho humming over who I will vote for. I made my decision, and you can argue all you want about how "weak" my case is, but at least I didn't have to get other poeple's approval first.

Not to mention deflecting accusations weakly (Post 54 and 57) and getting annoyed by bringing up past arguments (Post 17, 18 and 53). I'm not seeing anything redeeming about Sekinj's play, and don't see how her playing is helping the town.

Vote: Sekinj

.

So, the best lynch you can pick at this point is the person you don't think is "helping the town"? You are voting me be I am impatient? and that makes me scum?


No, Siree, it looks much more like you didn't like what I had to say about your fence sitting, and so went back to make up a case on me. I didn't even criticize you very strongly, becuase i didn't see anything scummy before now. I'm very surprised you reacted so strongly, But you blew up about it, decided I was scum out of all of those you mentioned, and went back and drug up everything you didn't like about me.

[iamausername]

Votecount #15!

Scheherazade (3) - Kairyuu, Artem, wolframnhart
sekinj (3) - CF Riot, Scheherazade, SilverPhoenix
springlullaby (2) - sekinj, mykonian
Artem (1) - springlullaby
Scigatt (1) - germy

Not Voting (2) - Ku_F, Scigatt

7 to lynch.

CLICK HERE FOR DEADLINE CLOCK

.

[SilverPhoenix]

No, Siree, it looks much more like you didn't like what I had to say about your fence sitting,

and so went back to make up a case on me.

I didn't even criticize you very strongly, becuase i didn't see anything scummy before now. I'm very surprised you reacted so strongly, But you blew up about it, decided I was scum out of all of those you mentioned, and went back and drug up everything you didn't like about me.

TBH, making this case now had nothing with your criticism, even though it was sorta timed that way. After looking back at the posts made over the last couple pages, I feel you are the scummiest right now. As I said before, I find you to be the most wish-washy person in the game, enough for it to feel like you are scum.

For the 17-day thing, I meant to point to Post 34 about the vote being done only when needed, not that one. But nevertheless, when I said I was going to vote

later tonight

, you acted like it was

never

going to happen, prompting the "sitting on the fence" comment in the first place. In that sense, the length of time before the lynch doesn't matter, as I was definitely going to vote

before

the deadline.

And I really don't think I blew up, honestly. I only presented a case I think is valid.

[CF Riot]

@Myko: How did you come to the conclusion that one of Zade and I

must

be scum? We haven't really had

that

much interaction with each other, and most of it has lead people to assume we're scum

together

. What lead you to this?

@CF Riot: I've been giving my reasons to vote Zade/afatchic since around page 2.

That statement was more for Myko since he was voting with you earlier, but now has split over to SL. I'm sorry, but I still really disagree with you.

1. Tried to partially separate self from germy once it was apparent that people found his claim request scummy.

Seems like a stretch, but okay.

2. Denied this when called out.

I don't think this is a scum tell, because it's a necessity after (1) happened.

3. Expressed lack of caring about backup power roles (said they were unimportant).

Seems anti-town, but not scum to me.

4. Began to lurk when I pressed further, going so far as to complain about being ganged up on 'every time' he posts.

-Zade replaces in-

5. Goes after sekinj (an easy target).

Biased because I also suspect Sek, but I disagree.

6. Continually repeats "I'm town."

He's already addressed it himself.

Red

mine in above.

Since my last post, I reread all of SL's posts and decided his amount of input is a little low for me, but I don't see anything scummy in what's there. I actually like some of what he's said, so I have a bit of a town read. I like Zade's posts, and he thinks a lot like me even on subjects other than Sekinj. SP I'm a little iffy on, but he's pointing out things about Sekinj that are valid now, so I like that. I don't really have a read on Artem, Wolf, or Ku_F.

[Kairyuu]

@Kairyuu: I think that I've missed whatever it is that makes you think that Sekinj was an easy target except for the vote cast against her by CF Riot. Is one vote against a person enough to make her an easy target? Are you then suggesting that I should have fabricated a case against someone unsuspected thus far in order to distance myself from all "easy targets" and other players?

What about her made her an "easy target" before I came along? I ask, because it looks like you're grasping at straws. If you don't find my argument against her convincing, that's fine. But you and Myk are the only people besides Sekinj who seem to think that my suspicion of her was calculated to manipulate other people rather than to lynch scum. Why?

I really didn't have much for this bit, and I can't back it up with more than personal opinion, so I suppose I will have to drop it. I am pretty sure that even though there was only one vote there at the time there were at least a few more people suspicious. I dunno. I've probably got a bit of tunnel vision going here, which is why I am becoming irrational.

And "6. Continually repeats "I'm town"" is just flat out false. It was said once and defended. I used it to explain my logic, that Sekinj only took a stand to defend other players when she was busy trying to discredit the real targets of her posts. That was all. Where else in the five pages since I made that post have I said "HEY! I'm town!" or anything like that? When I teased you in post 327 for doing exactly that?

I could have sworn I didn't call you out on it until you had done it a couple of times. If I'm wrong I apologize.

Bold is mine.

It seems that I may be tunnelling, which would be bad. I'm gonna have a go at rereading the whole game to see what I can see. I still strongly dislike afatchic's play, and think that Zade is scum because of that, but after he was replaced I have seen very few scumtells, so I may need to reconsider my case for D1.

@CF Riot: It's not like I didn't expect you to disagree with me, as you did the same last time I brought up the full case. I think the case is reasonably strong, and you think it rather weak, which is perfectly acceptable, since we are both rather stubborn.

As for the whole you/Zade scumteam ideas, it is probably because you defended afatchic, and now are defending Zade, against a good portion of the points made. Personally, I think that if Zade flips scum, it would be a wise decision for us to look more closely at you as scum because of the defenses.

[Scheherazade]

@Kairyuu: Not to belabour the point, but you, Mykonian and Artem suspected me (see vote count at time of my arrival), springlullaby, if anyone, seemed to be leaning towards Artem (post 245), wolframhart actually just unvoted Sekinj because he didn't suspect her and instead was investigating Alvinz95 (203, 243) and suspected Myk until his claim, germy hadn't expressed a serious suspicion since you claimed and the rest were not voting nor had really expressed a strong suspicion of anybody.

If anything, Sekinj was an uphill battle because you had in no uncertain terms disagreed with CF Riot for voting Sekinj and in fact mentioned it when you HoSed him. Wolframhart had just declared that he didn't think that she was very strong. And CF Riot hadn't yet responded to Sekinj's defence of her vote/unvote for you, which made me think at the time that he was backing off.

So I completely disagree with your fifth point against me. Gut-feeling and all, I think the facts contradict your conclusion.

You called me out after I had posted twice: one of those was my confirmation post. I didn't mention it again except to explain myself and once to point out that you've done the same in past posts.

So I completely disagree with your sixth point.

On the other hand, thank you for apologising. I appreciate your honesty, even if you're trying to kill me.

[mykonian]

I'm not going to just eenie-meenie-minie-moe it either like myko seems to be doing (not a good sign, btw)

I see I'm accused of something. I don't know exactly what. I have said what my thoughts were. My first suspect is Spring (where my vote is). My second suspect is zade, third CF. After that I get uncertain. I'm won't vote today for Kai, Artem, Sekinj. I feel they are the wrong way. Kai is mason, had a very long discussion with artem, loads of information there. For that, Artem is off my list today. Also the arguments against him are far from convincing. Sekinj has done some town things in my mind, and I feel she is an easy target for scum. She hasn't posted that much usefull things, and now everything she says is looked at as scummy. Following from the above, this seems scum driven to me.

Like here

sekinj, since you are around, mind replying to my 367 beside in joking?

I dont' know what kind of response you want. I obviously don't like that you want to lynch me... I think you are wrong and misguided...

1.'Wrong and misguided' are word characterize a townie, if you think that of me, why are you voting me then?

2.In the post, I have addressed other questions to you (bolded text). I'd also like you to react to answer to your suspicions.

Here words are misused by Spring in here first point.

And CF, Most of it I get from your and zades/afatchic reaction on Kairyuu (a certainty, so a starting point for thinking), and it has nothing to do with interaction between you and zade/afatchic. More how you react on what happens around you, esspecially Spring, Sekinj, and the Kairyuu-Artem thing. On this moment, this theory is what I'm sticking with till day 2. Then I can test it.

[Scheherazade]

@mykonian:

I'm won't vote today for Kai, Artem, Sekinj. I feel they are the wrong way.

Mind you don't make them targets for night kill.

Kai is mason, had a very long discussion with artem, loads of information there. For that, Artem is off my list today.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I would like to know what you mean by putting Artem off of your list for the discussion with Artem. Was there anything vindicating that you noticed? I just don't quite understand your reasoning.

Sekinj has done some town things in my mind, and I feel she is an easy target for scum. She hasn't posted that much usefull things, and now everything she says is looked at as scummy. Following from the above, this seems scum driven to me.

What town things? I don't think that any of Sekinj's defences showed convincing evidence of town behaviour, so maybe you can enlighten me for her.

And the second part: do you mean to say that you think that it's scummy to identify her recent posts as scummy? Is it because you feel that people are trying too hard to lynch her? Is that necessarily scummy, given the approaching deadline? What are your thoughts here, please?

Like here

sekinj, since you are around, mind replying to my 367 beside in joking?

I dont' know what kind of response you want. I obviously don't like that you want to lynch me... I think you are wrong and misguided...

1.'Wrong and misguided' are word characterize a townie, if you think that of me, why are you voting me then?

2.In the post, I have addressed other questions to you (bolded text). I'd also like you to react to answer to your suspicions.

Here words are misused by Spring in here first point.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by misused here. I read them to mean "because scum know alignments, they vote with certainty; if you think that I'm voting in uncertain terms, then how can you call me scum?" I'm not sure if I buy the argument, but is that a misuse of the words?

And CF, Most of it I get from your and zades/afatchic reaction on Kairyuu (a certainty, so a starting point for thinking), and it has nothing to do with interaction between you and zade/afatchic. More how you react on what happens around you, esspecially Spring, Sekinj, and the Kairyuu-Artem thing. On this moment, this theory is what I'm sticking with till day 2. Then I can test it.

Would you care to be more specific about my "reaction on Kairyuu?" It seems like you're calling us scummy because we both have kept open the possibility that you and Kairyuu have lied. Is that so?

If that's the case, I think your statement itself is not very pro-town. You're trying to tell us what to think by saying "a certainty, so a starting point for thinking." Are you saying that because we don't base all of our thinking on the assumption that you and Kairyuu are masons, we're scummy? Not only do I think it's wise not to assume that the unlikelihood of you lying is the same as the impossibility of you lying, CF Riot and I aren't the only ones to consider the possibility that you're lying.

Besides that, simply because we react similarly to something doesn't mean that we're allied. Not to speak for others, but both germy and Artem posted to the effect that they too think it's possible that you're lying.

Therefore, not only is your statement anti-town, it shows evidence that you're perverting facts to make us look like scum.

Now, if it's simply a gut-feeling, at least have the decency to admit that. I'm not going to argue with you how you feel, unless the facts contradict your feeling.

As for my reaction to springlullaby, I'm not sure what it is. If I don't know what to make of springlullaby, then I don't really know how you know. Or are you pointing to the fact that I haven't addressed the springlullaby question?

As for my reaction to Sekinj, you seem to be saying that because CF Riot and I were the first to seriously suspect Sekinj, we must be allied--that, and the fact that neither of us thinks that Sekinj has vindicated herself in the past few pages. All I have to say is that Sekinj is suspect. You don't have to agree with me, but don't use that as a basis of making an accusation. It's pretty anti-town to say "because I don't agree with x, he must be scum." As stated above, if you feel that things she has posted vindicate her, then I'm still open to hearing the case from somebody. I just haven't had reason to seriously doubt my suspicion yet.

What reaction did I have to the Artem-Kairyuu thing? The fact that I felt Artem was more on the defensive? Partly that's because it felt like Artem was ready to drop it early, admitting his mistake in post 22. Kairyuu took a certain tone with Artem in post 62 that lead to Artem allowing himself to get involved in post 69. Partly that was because I thought it wasn't very wise of Kairyuu to rely on his ability to claim, but I think that he and I have discussed that adequately and need not discuss it further.

So, please show me 1) what you think my reactions to be, 2) how they are scummy on their own, 3) how they relate to CF Riot's in a way that implies we are scum-buddies, and 4) what the division is between the reactions that CF Riot and I had and the reactions of other players who expressed similar views.

[Scheherazade]

Edit: fifth line down, "Artem off of your list for the discussion with Artem" should be "Artem off of your list for the discussion with Kairyuu"

[mykonian]

1. Kairyuu is confirmed, so nothing changes, Sekinj is most suspected player, and I told my feelings about artem already.

2. Wifom based. Gut feeling, only a bit of fact, but enough to put Artem slightly positive for me.

3. The damned Kai-unvote. She was the only one that was uncertain. I didn't expect scum to do that. That will keep my vote from her today.

4. the misuse of sekinj's words is that it is clear that sekinj thinks Spring scum. She posts an argument from spring is wrong, and spring misuses the words Sekinj used to say that Sekinj says she is town. Sekinj never stated she thought spring town.

5. No, it is the way of voting, and the reaction on the discussions Kairyuu had. So it originated earlier. In fact, it isn't scummy to be suspicious of Kairyuu and me. I thought I only called spring on that, as she only followed SP.

6. I doubt you are buddies on the moment, but from my thinking one of you is scum. That you go the same way would seem weird to me for two scum.

There have been a few important things till now: germy's claim, Artem-Kairyuu, The case against Sekinj, the little collision between spring and Sekinj in the start, and maybe I have missed something. People chose sides, for various reasons. I wouldn't expect all the scum to choose for one side. And I would expect there reasons to be weak. The fact that you and CF move with eachother makes it hard to see from this point who of you is it.

An example: on the votecount of page 9:

Votecount #8!

Kairyuu (5) - afatchic, CF Riot, Artem, sekinj, germy
afatchic (2) - Kairyuu, mykonian
sekinj (1) - wolframnhart
Artem (1) - springlullaby

Not Voting (3) - alvinz95, Ku_F, Scigatt

7 to lynch.

From my assumptions (feelings and small facts) I thought Artem, germy and Sekinj slightly more town. Sekinj indeed being the weakest of them. Assuming 3 scum, and assuming scum would be on the wagon (what I'm quite certain of) you and CF remain. I have to say, from this point Sekinj is far from confrimed, because you and CF are on a weird spot for scum to be on a wagon.

Springs vote for Artem was far from great, so I found my next scum. The not voting people are suspicious too, just because we haven't a lot to examine from them. And yes, I know this isn't evidence, but this can be tested day 2. Spring has been acting scummy because of the weak votes she places, the weak reasoning behind it, the turning of words, the slightly active lurking etc.

And be honest, afatchic's play wasn't great, and so was your first post. It fitted in. CF also hasn't had an optimal play, is very uncertain (or wants to look what savest place for his vote will be).