Mini 680: Portlandia- Game Over!

[X]

Vote: ZazierR

for actually being after me alphabetically. How dare you!

To be consistent,

FoS: Y.C

,

FoS: YOUNG ERIC

.

[X]

Actually, since I'm at L-4, I'll claim: I'm a miller. I heard it's good practice to claim miller early if you are one.

[X]

I didn't really have a good reason to not claim post 1. Afterward I looked a little bit more into the role, and nothing said not to claim.

After looking again, it was really L-5, because with an even number of people it takes half plus one, not just half. My bad. I wasn't in danger of being lynched (not that L-4 is either ). I'm quite surprised that q21 would actually unvote me, though. Tiny bit eager to present himself as pro-town.

[X]

This had to do with it, but it was more that it was advocated on the Wiki. Appeal to authority, I guess...but personally I couldn't think of a reason not to claim.

Lurkers, show yourselves!

[X]

I honestly don't see the point of voting for lurkers at the beginning of the game until it's clear that:
1. They won't show their faces.
AND
2. The mod won't replace them (for various reasons - either posting sans content, or they are "present and able to post" in MeMe's words).

Oh, and Mr_Adams, I don't think there is any defense to either of your statements. Sorry...

[X]

Sure. Close enough for me.

[X]

I won't kill somebody on a hunch

No, you won't. Because the town won't let you.

Un(random)vote: ZazierR

,

Vote: Mr_Adams

.

You may just be careless, but we can't use careless people. Not saying we should lynch you...at this point...have to wait and see for that.

[X]

I reacted poorly, and now it looks like I'll be lynched for it. So be it, it'll be a lesson learned.

Oh, come on. Seriously, defend/explain yourself. No matter what, it's in your best interest to survive, and it's in our best interest to figure out if you're town or not.

And bionicchop2, post 66 is simply manipulating semantics. I don't really find anything convincing in it. This may just be your style, but I wouldn't say it's a clear one. I'm a fan of looking for scummy actions and insinuations, but not preoccupying oneself with word choice.

Also, TSN (TheSweatpantsNinja), saying something confuses you without elaborating ain't very helpful. More, please.

[X]

Okay, while the hunch contradiction is iffy, look at this contradiction in the posting of ZazieR:

I kept my vote on him as we don't know his allignment. He can say that he's a miller, while actually being scum and I don't want him out of the spotlight yet.
There are enough layers pressuring Adams with their votes, so I didn't saw the need to change my vote to Adams.

Followed by:

unvote Mr_Adams;vote zazier

With no reaction in 152:

He voted due to his hunch as if he was sure that scum X is saying that he's a miller to use it as an excuse when the cop would investigate him. I didn't.

I kept my random vote as I had no other player to chance it to and as nobody else was voting X there would be no harm keeping my vote. I also didn't know what to think of X's claim. Another reason for keeping my vote.

What should I think of the claim? Both sides could use this claim. Scum would have a reason why they turn up guilty when investigated by the cop. A townie would say it that the cop wouldn't make a mistake.
That's why I decided to decide if X is scum by his posts afterwards as this claim is a null-tell.

Suspects I have right now:
Adams for his unvote.
Bionicchop2 as I didn't like your reason for voting Chaz.
q21 as I don't what to think of those links and his explanation afterwards of which I already gave a comment about.

This can change soon.

Okay, so you're not changing your vote to Mr_Adams now why? When you say you won't do something primarily because of reason A, once reason A disappears, you should do it. For this inconsistency, I'll

Unvote: Mr_Adams

.

Vote: ZazieR

.

[X]

You seriously have almost as much in that last post about avatars and names than scumminess. And your argument against me couldn't be worse. I'm really tempted to switch my vote back. And your vote isn't still on me...it's on Knight of Cydonia by saying:

In fact, vote

Knight of... whatever his name is...

cmon people, give yourself simpler names in mafia games. it makes it easier.

[X]

I'm surprised no one has said that I've been lurking - I haven't been V/LA, just busy. Sorry about that. Re-reading now.

[X]

Hm...I see now why people didn't say I was lurking. They sort of forgot of me as a player and saw me as a symbol - the miller. Works for me.

Alright, I'm happy with my vote on ZazieR. She hasn't satisfactorily explained anything about voting me and staying quiet (although she did try to placate by changing her vote). 201 is an anti-town post in that it confuses more than illuminates...and she puts a bunch of questions that make her seem frantic to get the discussion off of her.

As for TSN, he hasn't really helped us much. I (albeit, indirectly) asked him to clarify what baffles him about Mr_Adams, but very little came out of that. Single-mindedly pursuing Mr_Adams now...which makes him sound like a Cop with a Guilty, which is impossible at this point in the game. So for little contribution and a narrow mind,

FoS: TBN

.

And I don't think Mr_Adams is scum...this is only my third forum game, but I think newbies are really hard to read. Why? Because they look scummy because they don't grasp everything yet. Not saying it should be ruled out...but perhaps I (and others) was a little to hasty.

[X]

It's still a legitimate town thought process when you feel the votes against you are complete shit (sometimes are...). I've been in the situation before.

Um...not exactly. If by, "complete shit," you mean, "lack quality reasoning," then yes, an unreasoned vote is often a good reason to suspect someone. However, that is not OMGUS. OMGUS is treating the situation differently because the vote is against you.

[X]

Pretty much any lynch on...What was it, page 5...The votes are probably complete shit.

A lynch on page 5 is terrible. A vote, certainly not. Especially since the target of that vote made 24 posts by the end of page 5. To borrow your terms, his shitty voting and reasoning was why I voted. My case really wasn't OMGUS.

Unvote: ZazieR

.

Vote: Xtoxm

.

[X]

That Xtoxm defended was not my problem. As far as I can tell, his defense has been illogical.

[X]

Alright, I'm a little busy now, but this deserves saying.

Not that I think Xtoxm isn't scummy, but

Unvote: Xtoxm

. Always a bad idea to ask for a votecount and vote for the largest bandwagon in the same post (FIS). I believe your vote brought him to L-1, which is not where he should be...yet...

[X]

Tempted to hammer...very tempted to hammer.

Xtoxm, I really haven't seen you contribute to this game besides sheer volume of posts. Many of them are simply curses at us all. Or affirming that you think Mr_Adams is pro-town. Honestly, you have set forth one argument that Mr_Adams is pro-town: that he's making a newbie town mistake, OMGUS. Nothing else you have said really explains why he's pro-town.

Why I don't hammer is because I am seriously considering the whole Jester thing.

Mod, if we lynched a theoretical Jester D1 (in our situation, with 12 players alive), would the game continue?

If you lynched a theoretical Jester, the game would end, as the Jester would have won.

I ask this because I would be much more willing to risk the chance of getting second place to a Jester than out-and-out losing. The strongest case that he's not the Jester is that:
a) Someone else (Mr_Adams) brought up the jester earlier in the game.
b) Jesters don't seem to be overwhelmingly common.
c) BBB's Gambit.
The strongest case that he's Jester:
a) Self-vote.
b) Spewing vile personal comments possibly intended to get us eager to lynch him.

What's not up for debate (IMO) is that he's scummy. Actively checking back on your own meta sounds like you're trying to look more pro-town than actually catch scum.

As for this:

I haven't played anything like my fucking scum meta, this is the most fucking pro-town i've been in ages. You are idiots.

I seriously hope I don't have to see this $&!# on future MafiaScum games...

[X]

If so, then we would have to keep him around until endgame, or until he was investigated (that's assuming we have a cop or equivalent).

I

think that

I'll

assume we have a Cop. But point taken.

And right, I shall wait. And probably re-read a few times. 12 people is so much more confusing than 9.

[X]

Lynching the most active guy is obviously the best plan.

Show me 1 post of yours that is helpful, and I'll show you 3 that aren't.

Even if the numbers don't work out right, your point is invalid.

[X]

really just not felt like commenting.

This is called lurking. It needs to stop. You need to comment and you need to do it often. Failure to do such helps scum win the game.

QFT.

[X]

I guess i'm just babbling.

QFT. And that never helps the game...vote count pending, my vote will return to Xtoxm.
For the record, I also think Fark has been pretty logical overall. It's really ironic that so many people jumped on Mr_Adams for voting on a hunch (which I agree with), and now people are voting on hunches...for shame...

No counter-claim here (obviously).

But questions for xtoxm, Adams and Bionicchop2 in post 201, which they already knew.

I still maintain that that post was more confusing than helpful...but I also wouldn't mind hearing some answers.

Honestly, with the number of lurkers, I think the deadline should be extended further than a week, because we'll have to see how the replacements act.

[X]

Right. So I doubt that there are multiple cops - in my mind I would say having a jester is more likely.

If ZazieR is scum, then she wasn't very smart to claim Cop. Why? Because she'd know that I'm not scum, therefore telling the truth about being a miller, therefore that there was an actual Cop. So hyposcum ZazieR must have expected a counter-claim.
As for q21, I think he's been very pro-town. A little jumpy and quick to unvote in the beginning, but that makes very little sense whether he's town or mafia. So it's really hard for me to think he's lying.

Somewhat related is something I've realized about this game. I really don't like 3 people's playstyles: Mr_Adams, Riceballtail, and Xtoxm. I think Xtoxm is the scummiest of the bunch for a variety of reasons.

And in light of recent developments, I think I've found a fairly good plan of action that involves lynching him.

Vote Zazier

She has laid low and is voting for X. I think this could be a good way to go.

I think that at this point in the game, it couldn't be bussing. Basically, I doubt Xtoxm and ZazieR are scumbuddies. So if we get a scum on Xtoxm (by lynching him), it will tell us that ZazieR is telling the truth.
To complete the plan, ZazieR and q21 can investigate each other. Doctor saves one of them. That will get rid of the confusion of 2 Cops, one way or the other.

I'm probably overlooking something, but I think it's definitely worth considering.

Vote: Xtoxm

.

[X]

My bad. You guys have convinced me.

Unvote: Xtoxm

,

Vote: ZazieR

.

The only reactions that I feel that I really have to respond to are these two:

And yes, pretty much everything X said there was anti-town.

Only if you really believe I was trying to mislead everyone. I've never been in a counter-claim situation before, or even read it on the site.

Ok, so what exactly does the two investigating each other do? If one gets NKed, the invetigation is nill. If one is scum, and the other doesn'e get killed, they both come back saying "I investigated him/her! (S)he IS SCUM! LYNCH NOW!

What you said is correct. The situation that you missed is if they are both Cop and neither are killed. They both come back saying that they're both clean. At the same time, I do see now how it's not worth it.

[X]

I said anti-town, not scummy, you are confusing the two.

I thought they were the same...enlighten me.

[X]

Thanks for the clarification. It makes more sense now.

[X]

Have I been replaced? If you haven't found one, mod, I'm back.

No - and we await your analysis.

I still think ZazieR is scum, but I also want to see answers to her questions.

FoS: bionicchop2, Mr_Adams, Xtoxm

.

[X]

I would like you to answer the questions you haven't already answered, from post 201:

Bionicchop2, his reason why he voted Chaz:

My thoughts against (and vote for) Chaz were based mostly on the assumption Mr_Adams was town. There was a decent case against him, but the vote by Chaz was leaning me against him actually being scum. Since then, Mr_Adams has done a few scummy things - namely conceding to a lynch and lack of scum hunting. I decided to put him closer to a lynch and gauge how he reacted (as well as others).

I hope you understand why I didn't like this action. You voted someone as you assumed that Adams was town and Chaz was just voting the player with the biggest wagon. But later, you saw that Adams was acting scummy. So I didn't see the point in voting Chaz.
Also, you said that I was one of your alternate suspects.
-Who are the others?
-Why did you wait with building a case against me?

Actually, you have made it somewhat clear about who the other suspects are. So that one is only if you want to clarify.

[X]

Simulposting...and the questions that I'm interested in of you, Mr_Adams, are:

Adams, voted X based upon a hunch.
I also don't like his reason for his vota against KoC. He gave as reason that KoC asked for more votes against Adams. This was said after he did his analysis and noticed that KoC wasn't analysed by him yet. But when I went back, I saw that Adams 'voted' KoC in post 83, while KoC wants more votes in post 98. This was when Adams was at L-3.
So Adams, why did you vote KoC?
About your analysis:
-What do you think in general about farkshin?
-Is there any other reason why you think Chaz is more likely scum than town, besides him saying "you haven't answered my question"?
-Why is TSN suspicious, but Y.C. not?
-What are your thoughts about the posts from X?

You "explained" your vote on KoC in 231, but I don't call that explaining. All questions stand.

[X]

As for 'building a case', that is a completely loaded question. The question makes it seem like I am stockpiling quotes waiting until I have enough to frame somebody as scum.

You mean, "waiting to build a case," makes it loaded. The way you answer that question is by saying, "I didn't, shown by the fact that I..." (or "I did, because..."). Just because the wording isn't to your liking doesn't prevent you from answering it.

[X]

-What do you think in general about farkshin?

Scum posing as town by protecting town, or town protecting scum by mistake, or town rightfully protecting town.

That's noncommital.

-What are your thoughts about the posts from X

very town, just to aggressive. wouldn't get along with him IRL, but for this game, it's good.

That's actually pretty funny. I am quite exuberant in real life; I wouldn't say agressive, but maybe others might.

No, I mean 'building a case', which is what I said. Scum build cases on town players IMO.

Stupid semantics. I'll ask it in a way that you might appreciate better:
Could you explain the brevity of your post 136?

Anyway, there are more pressing matters now.

Unvote: ZazieR

as I re-read.

[X]

Wow, how deja-vuish. I was re-reading a game yesterday that sounds very much like this. It was a theme game, Cartman (from South Park) based. I imagine that Haschel might have read it and got ideas from it, because that's what our game is developing like. Sorry for my metagaming, mod. I suggest that others skim it and look at the setup. Very unique.

And so far everyone has checked in after the q21 Cop claim except TSN, and KoC only barely posted...so we need to hear from them. If we have a 4th Cop, we need to know now.

[X]

So flying under the radar was your problem with it? Okay. But I'm just feeling a little bit of extra pushing coming from you that feels scummy, like you're scared under pressure. Not very. Just a little.

[X]

I believe the term you are looking for is "over-defensive" and I get called such often.

Sure. Others who have played with BC2: is this true?

Xtoxm and Mr_Adams claimed vanilla...although that doesn't mean much.

[X]

Mod, prod icemanE

. This is getting ridiculous.

I'm sorry, this was my fault. When I sent him his role PM earlier, for some reason the message didn't actually go through. I believe I have rectified this now.

I think KoC and Adams are both scummy, neither for extremely drastic reasons. I think keeping KoC around longer will be more helpful than keeping Mr_Adams, because KoC has contributed to discussion in more productive way. As in, Mr_Adams could be scum, but if he's town, he's distracting.

This brings him to L-2, which I suggest is all we do until Friday.

Vote: Mr_Adams

.

On a different note, did anybody look into that game that I mentioned?

[X]

I looked at it, but didn't see any significance and didn't really understand what looking at it would do. That was a themed game with a serial killer, 2 cops, masons and a vigilante. I don't think it even had a miller in it (could be wrong). Other than having multiple cops, I don't know why it was linked.

Well, 2 masons died N0, so that didn't make a difference in the playing of the game. There was a miller, and the cops used him to determine their own sanities...one was Sane, the other Paranoid. It seems similar, though.

I think someone mentioned this before, probably Xtoxm, but the reason that you test sanity on a claimed miller is because you know how the result should turn out. Either I'm telling the truth and a miller, in which case a guilty should be returned, or I'm lying and scum, in which case a guilty would also be returned.

[X]

I think KoC and Adams are both scummy, neither for extremely drastic reasons. I think keeping KoC around longer will be more helpful than keeping Mr_Adams, because KoC has contributed to discussion in more productive way. As in, Mr_Adams could be scum, but if he's town, he's distracting.

In that respect though, shouldn't Adams be easier to read than KoC with respect to scum tells and hence should be kept around longer? Just a thought.

I thought that myself at first, too. However, I think that if we let his scumtells pass as newbie mistakes, he becomes very difficult to read. On the other hand, if KoC drops scumtells, we won't ascribe that to anything but the possibility of him being mafia.

But my main point is that the scum can interfere when they know which target the cops are going to investigate.

Um, I don't see how that would work unless scum has a bus driver or a framer...it also sounds like you have extra information on the scum...

IcemanE: Welcome! Just so you know, your predecessor's vote is still on Mr_Adams, who is at L-1.

[X]

Mr_Adams already claimed VT in post 124. As for all of the cops investigating me, I think they should choose themselves, without announcing. It's really too bad that all of the cops have claimed D1...

[X]

I agree with KoC, I don't like our cops steered by the town, I think the less we all know about their intentions, the better.

QFT. And I repeat, investigating a claimed VT is not necessarily the best idea...it could be, depending on their play, but not because they have claimed VT.

I don't like that we're so rushed, but I think we all agree that someone has to hammer tommorrow. No lynch is no fun and no good.

[X]

Well, I suspect both ZazieR and Xtoxm, and I wouldn't be too surprised with her either bussing or pulling Lepton's Gambit. It's difficult to decipher. ZazieR, why are you so entirely sure that you're sane?

[X]

I can't believe X isn't even attempting to defend against the reports.

Watch how you abbreviate, mister.

ice - while the reality is that xtoxm is probably a good lynch today (even if only for learning sanity), your reasoning is flawed. 2 innocent reports have the same likelihood of meaing xtoxm is scum as 2 guilty reports do.

Plus, Xtoxm has thrown other scumtells and has given up trying to convince people that he's town.

Let's not end the day just yet, though. Way too early to cut off discussion, especially if we want to get more than just hyposcum Xtoxm.

[X]

I'm happy to lynch a scummy player to confirm cop sanities - that way we kill two birds with one stone: a scummy player, and the questions surrounding our cops.

It can rule out a few possibilities if we find out Xtoxm is scum, but not many. Just that either cop could not be insane (if he is scum) or that they can't be sane (if he isn't).

@ The Cops:

Why did you guys pick Xtoxm to investigate?

Read the thread. Fark already asked this question, and ZazieR answered. I'm not giving my reaction either way on ZazieR's answer until G-Force answers it.

[X]

Chaz, I don't think that acting like town meta necessarily makes a person town. Xtoxm is scummy in his own right, and I believe he acknowledged that he's been checking back at his own meta, which renders any meta argument useless. I'm not too sure if we should lynch Xtoxm, and I agree that we shouldn't yet.

You were more interested in lynching RBT, who hasn't contributed, but could potentially be another living character on our side. So, what questions do you want answered by RBT?
And also, why haven't you asked them if you suspect him?

[X]

Whatever. Just lynch me. I'm not going to put any more effort into this game.

I have every intention of playing.

Good luck reconciling those two positions.

[X]

I'm going to also say that it would be best to have an Xtoxm lynch today. He has been plenty scummy, and he won't defend himself. It won't clear up sanity definitively, but if we lynch anyone else, it won't give us even a hint.

I will be V/LA until Wednesday afternoon.

Chances are that if Xtoxm won't start putting effort back into the game, and he hasn't been replaced, my vote will land on him.

[X]

I've decided that Xtoxm is a jester. Like, in real life. I sort of want him out of the game, and I don't know whether he's town or not. I'm going to read up on his meta soon, but I won't vote until I've read it.

Meanwhile, Xtoxm, you said this to FIS.

Because you're one to talk about being anti-town

You say you're town? Do you want to help win? Explain what about FIS you think is scummy.

Still waiting on Chaz.

As for an icemanE wagon, I just don't get it. The only arguments that I have identified against him are that he's bandwagoning Xtoxm and that he has mentioned the guilties while Yesterday he said that Cop results were basically untrustworthy (without a miller investigation). Someone needs to explain this to me better.

[X]

I haven't forgotten. TSN was a lurker, but not even a terrible one. It was sort of sad that we didn't have any posts from him or icemanE between pages 9 and 20, but that's due to the nature of replacing. I didn't think he was particularly scummy.

Done with reading one game of Xtoxm (611, in which he calls himself Xtoxm lite). Putting off reading the others until after I do my homework.

[X]

Oh, darn. Xtoxm, by being a pain, has made himself impossible to read. I read the three games that Fark read, and his meta is the same style in all three. The main remaining reason to suspect him is post 297, claiming to have been watching his own meta. I hate to leave him living, but it might be for the best.

Xtoxm, could you answer my question?

I'd really appreciate it if you'd try to be bearable, and respond to questions again.

Chaz: You may have missed it, but I asked you some questions a while back (603). Before I answer your question, I'd like to year your response first.

Still haven't heard an explanation of the icemanE wagon...

[X]

This question:

Meanwhile, Xtoxm, you said this to FIS.

Because you're one to talk about being anti-town

You say you're town? Do you want to help win? Explain what about FIS you think is scummy.

I haven't been watching my own meta as such, I am simply aware of it. To me the differences are clear, and I have little/no control over it. I could accurately call my own alignment in all my games, I am sure, if say I someone didn't know my alignment...Impossible scenario but you get what I mean.

That's pretty funny...mind telling us your scumtells?

[X]

I don't buy it as reason enough to lynch him. It seems that icemanE's actions could be easily enough explained by him being a townie. His change of heart about the guilties may have to do with two things if he is town:
1. That he's human, and Xtoxm being guilty fits into his current view of reality, so he is more willing to accept the evidence.
2. That because the town decided that it would be a waste to confirm sanities D1, he started thinking along the lines of, "Well, we can't confirm them, so this is as accurate as we're going to get."
This may be a misrepresentation of icemanE, but that's what I think could let him be town.

And yes, I am questioning the Xtoxm wagon. I just definitively got off of it (Post 657).

If anybody wants to back their vote up with a PbPa, it would definitely help.

QFT.

Yes, but not with you lot acting like idiots...You seem to be listening now, so I will.

On the whole, FIS has looked town to me, but there are few scummy things he's done.

Elaborate, please. This says practically nothing.

[X]

Mod, please prod G-Force, Riceballtail, and ZazieR

.

Prods sent to the former and the latter.

[X]

What was done last night was the equivalent of what he was asking for. If you would have been investigated, we would have the same information we have now because nobody can confirm you as a miller.

...

I think the reports are nothing but a distraction at this point.

Yeah, I agree. But I'm saying that it's an understandable (although incompletely thought-out) way of looking at it.

icemanE, what do you currently think, given the reliability of the Cop results and Xtoxm's (for lack of a better word) wacky meta?

I'll look over today's posting again and get some more up later.

Could you make it something long and substantive? You've consistently been lurking/posting little.

[X]

FoS: Chaz

for being mysterious. Perhaps not your fault, but it is a little odd. Once you're allowed to talk, I expect to hear something significant. Also, I don't see the big difference between 607 and 614.

That being said,

Vote: RBT

. If that's the most that we're going to get out of you when you are directly asked to contribute significantly and have no votes on you, we'll just have to put more pressure on, now won't we?

To bionicchop2: I think it's early to limit ourselves to 2 options.

[X]

Sorry for defending myself against a misrepresentation of my posting?

Don't be sorry about that. Be sorry for not commenting on

anything else

.

[X]

Alive players, by # of days since last post.

bionicchop2 - (0)
Knight of Cydonia - (0)
Farkshinsoup - (1)
X - (2)
Riceballtail - (3)
Xtoxm - (4)
G-Force - (5)
chazworthington - (6)
icemanE - (7)
ZazieR...asked for replacement.

Anyone else think that's sad? (Besides, obviously, bionicchop2.)

[X]

I find RBT's vote on a player who is no longer a part of this game very interesting. Votes on players who won't defend themselves or respond to the vote always catch my attention.

I understand that, but I actually was surprised by RBT's post more than the vote. Between ZazieR acting scummy, G-Force's claim (which was lucky for him to be a replacement coming in that time as hyposcum), and their agreement on their investigation target/result, it's a strong possibility in my mind. This game is so much more confusing than a newbie game. Oh, and Chaz, that's a good find in ZazieR's meta.

FoS: Chaz for being mysterious. Perhaps not your fault, but it is a little odd. Once you're allowed to talk, I expect to hear something significant. Also, I don't see the big difference between 607 and 614.

I haven't asked the mod yet, but if you searched my games (there aren't many) you should see the lesson I learned. As for 607 and 614, the former read to me as RBT pushing along the XtomX lynch, while 614 is rather the opposite.

Alright. I'll get to that when I have time. I've got a Christmas show to perform in this Saturday, so I can't say that it'll be soon. Oh, and what show are you doing, Chaz? We're doing a barbershop version of

A Christmas Carol

.

Fark...I'll read your post later.

And her post 411 in this thread is scummy as can be, assuming a mafia roleblocker is in play.

I would imagine there is no mafia role blocker based on the information we have.

Both claimed cops have investigation results. I would imagine one would be blocked if there was a RB.

My post was worded poorly. I meant that Zaz was using the assumption of a mafia roleblocker in post 411.

I wasn't overly concerned with who said it, just pointing it out really. I didn't think the comment was scummy, but I wanted to address the line of thinking that there may be a role blocker.

Why is that?

[X]

Sorry guys. Just did a re-read.

Fark, the post that I decided to skim over when reading before is very convincing. bionicchop2 has been the one to give me doubts about Xtoxm in the past, but I think that he might be a scumpartner. Although his meta shows that he doesn't play normally, it doesn't show as much him dropping scumtells that aren't personality- or lurking-based. As I read through, a pairing of bionicchop2 and Xtoxm makes so much sense.

bionicchop2 and Xtoxm have been agreeing throughout much of the game. bionicchop2 has not been under any major suspicion, but while Xtoxm has been, he always had one faithful partner. Xtoxm has talked closely with BC2 and furthered his arguments consistently - as a scum barnacle, persay. Yet BC2 rarely expressed his personal doubt that Xtoxm was town. The closest he came was this:

ice - while the reality is that xtoxm is probably a good lynch today (even if only for learning sanity), your reasoning is flawed. 2 innocent reports have the same likelihood of meaing xtoxm is scum as 2 guilty reports do.

His excuses for why he buddies with Xtoxm are many, and says that he is a buddy even in the games that he suspects him in. To me, this sounds like a preperation for in case his scumpartner dies.

So I think it's time for BC2 to go under the microscope. RBT needs to contribute, but this seems to be a bigger lead.

Unvote: RBT

,

Vote: bionicchop2

.

I'd appreciate it if you defend yourself rather than clamming up, Xtoxm. Oh, and while I'm at it, could you explain 345?

[X]

I would be very angry if there is a fourth Cop who didn't come out earlier.

We're both vanilla, so I don't know why we got different results.

It shouldn't be hard enough for you to extrapolate. There are two possibilities - that you're scum and you're not really VT...or you're VT as you claim and ZazieR is scum.

At this point, I'm more prepared to believe afatchic because there are three cops, and Riceballtail has never made an effort to help the town. But I'd like to hear more out of afatchic...and the other living players.

And as for why I didn't vote for Xtoxm near the end of the Day yesterday, it was because it was an incompletely developed theory. And as such, it should be discussed before putting any player close to a lynch. Especially when that player is prone to self-hammer.

[X]

I never liked RBT, but I don't like the idea of losing the game just because of 3 townies with terrible playstyles.

As for why I think there aren't four Cops, everyone else was asked to claim if they were the Cop a WHILE back. If there's a fourth Cop, it'd change the game even further...and the Cop would have wanted to give us that information.

afatchic, make sure you read the game once or twice.

And then give us comments about it.

[X]

vote no lynch

I think an additional night phase is needed right now (without us discussing what may or may not happen at night and giving ideas to people).

It sounds like others just passed over his idea. I personally like it.

Vote: no lynch

.

[X]

Wow, RBT just realized that he and afatchic can't be town.

The only discussion I am against is night phase speculation. Your cases against the top 3 will be very valuable should you turn up dead and proven to be a cop.

QFT.

[X]

afatchic, I did read through your gargantuan post, and I don't think I agree with much, if any of it. I think Fark is town - it's a vibe I've been getting the whole game. Before I entirely dismiss you, I will read through again with what you said in mind.

Just a quick comment about this:

in the mean time, i would like everyone, if you don't mind, to make a case for your top three suspects. doesn't have to be anything extremely long. but what i do want is post references where you have shown your suspicion prior to now, so you can't really bull crap it. if you have any reason not to, just tell me. if yall would like to wait to post them until tomorrow night after i post mine, so i don't get accused of just copying yours, then thats fine. i would suggest doing them and saving them to MS word or somehting, so that you can post it as soon as i post mine, to keep the game moving along.

I mean, I like you contributing, asking for others to do the same, and all, but try to not be condescending about it.

First, i have never seen a scum self hammer, unless a cop had quilty, or there was not a chance for them to win. so calling for another person, probably townie, to hammer him is scummy.

This has been discussed fairly well in the thread. Xtoxm is not, and has never been, a normal player.

And RBT is certainly lazy, from what we can judge him on. That doesn't make him scum, and you should try to show why we should believe that RBT is scum (and that you're not scum fabricating results).

To icemanE: What? Please be clearer. Just so you know, I'm suspecting you more & more.

Definitely more to come tomorrow.

Mod, vote count please?

[X]

To icemanE's post 857, misquoting is a scumtell.

I think icemanE is scum. There have been small things, but this last statement is really surprising.

I have a feeling there's a fourth cop out there.

It's pure speculation, and it could very well be him telling a buddy to claim Cop. Furthermore, it looks like to me that you're stuck between afatchic being definitely Mafia and definitely Cop.
Another position that you are straddling (and have straddled) is how integral the Cops are in this game. Between RBT & afatchic, it's obvious that the Cop report helped us isolate one scum. However, you have gone back and forth between relying on them (which seems to be your instinct) and pretending that they didn't exist (which is the general opinion of the town). Also, while my defense of you regarding this was logical (662), you didn't add anything to it; couldn't elaborate. Like you couldn't see how to defend yourself, so yeah, I'll agree with his defense.

Chaz also seems scummy to me. Can't put my finger on why. Part of it is definitely the claim to look at voting patterns, but only actually looking at the End-of-Day Vote Counts. I know that's not enough, but something seems wrong.

My no lynch vote stands.

[X]

Well, it's because I'm a cop. Night one result was a guilty on rice. Night two - innocent on fat.

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would be very angry if there is a fourth Cop who didn't come out earlier.

ON A DIFFERENT NOTE:

Well, it's because I'm a cop. Night one result was a guilty on rice. Night two - innocent on fat.

Saw this coming after his first post of hte day.

+

@X- where did he misquote at? i think he is scum too, but i don't see any misquoting going on unless i missed something before that.

= afatchic is a liar.

The answer to the question is that the quote is right, but it is attributed to "fat" instead of "icemanE."

Nice breadcrumbing, whether mafia or cop.

I thought it was breadcrumbing if you did this D1. But I haven't been in a game where anyone breadcrumbed, so someone else needs to explain this me. I still believe we should no lynch, just not yet.

[X]

You think he's Cop & you think he's Scum.

[X]

You think he's Cop & you think he's Scum.

No, i was waiting for the claim actually. after i saw his first couple posts, thats when i said there would be four cops, not knowing anything that had happened. Putting him number three was kinda setting up the Mafia. I'm pretty sure the mafia would try to frame me, and would also not kill one of the ones people are most suspicious of, so i was hoping they would kill one of the ones i said i was most suspicious of, which one of those i also think is likely to be scum...

Ah. I see what you're saying, up until "Putting him number three..." I don't understand what you're trying to say there.

We have two cops verified and I'm not going to speak for everyone but I'm a little iffy on there being three cops.

Alright, I got this when you said this before you claimed, but I don't see how you would say this if you were a Cop...could you explain this further?

If anyone else is gonna claim Cop, it's now or never. If it isn't done in your next 3 posts but done at a more "convenient" date, I will NOT, under any circumstances, believe you.

[X]

I think I say something like that a few times to offset the breadcrumbs.

Yes, you say it multiple times. Offset breadcrumbs?

[X]

Okay.

But I'd be much more comfortable with a no lynch.

[X]

I'm here. I just don't have stuff to say. I might try doing a voting analysis thing...

[X]

I'm also not much of a fan as to how fat is trying to completely dominate and direct discussion.

Yep. Me too. But I like less how you've been not contributing to discussion. You have not acknowledged any player except afatchic since D2. Because you're under such heavy suspicion, I don't think it'd be out of line to ask you to detail a case on your top 2 or 3 suspects.

[X]

Well, I've been trying the vote analysis thing, and it's difficult. I've looked at 2 people so far and have come to no conclusion. To be continued...

Anyway,

I'll be V/LA until Friday afternoon, maybe Saturday.

Looking forward to hearing RBT's side of things.

[X]

You either think they are both lying, or RBT is scum.

Not quite...icemanE could be making a convenient claim (afatchic is real, icemanE is not) OR icemanE could be insane (icemanE is real, afatchic is not).

[X]

Are you responding to this?

I don't think it'd be out of line to ask you to detail a case on your top 2 or 3 suspects.

Because by no means is that a detailed case.

And if I understand you correctly, you think I'm scum because the Miller claim makes the multiple Cops more likely? Hyposcum X would not know to claim Miller, because he wouldn't know that there were multiple Cops.

[X]

Unvote: No Lynch

,

Vote: RBT

. Also:

Mod, check the numbers on your vote count.

[X]

There are two Cops effectively claiming guilties on you, yet you decide that I'm the most likely to be scum? That just doesn't make sense.

Things I want to see Today:

icemanE explaining why he didn't consider the possibility that he was insane
Input from/replacement of chaz
Input from KoC
RBT lynch

And possibly, PBPAs from everyone. I tend to use that to mean Player By Player Analysis. If everyone thinks that this would be productive, I would have no problem going first.

[X]

RBT, you make no sense.

afatchic claims to be an insane cop. If you are town, you can be 100% sure he is scum, yet you play the confused card (how could he get different results on two vanillas????) and try to throw suspicion in other directions.

Either afatchic is lying scum or you are.

BINGO!

I thought I said this already...

[X]

1. Don't hammer quite yet.
2. There are only 3 votes on him...5 to lynch.

[X]

Could someone unvote RBT? We have more business to conduct today.

Whoops. That makes a lot of sense.

Unvote: RBT

.

KoC, see FIS's post.

Vote Count as of post 925

(3)Riceballtail: bionicchop2, afatchic, icemanE
(1)X: Riceballtail

Not Voting: Knight of Cydonia, chazworthington, Farkshinsoup
5 votes to lynch.

[X]

Mod, could you prod icemanE, KoC, and

especially

chaz?

I mean, you can prod RBT too if you want, but it's not vital...

Sorry, I sent out prods earlier to everybody but it looks like those disappeared with the second forum crash. Prodding now. Except iceman, because he posted right after this post.

I really don't like how this game has consisted almost entirely of lurking & role speculation (besides scum v. town)...but the first one is much more easily remedied.

[X]

Oh, sorry, icemanE, I missed that you answered the question about the possibility of you being insane...

I would like to get Chaz's input before lynching. However, that doesn't seem possible, as he hasn't posted in this game

or on this site

since December 20th.

KoC has been V/LA for a while, and I think he asserted a lot in his last post that needs to be fleshed out. Like, his conclusion that the mafia is definitely RBT-icemanE-afatchic. In my mind, that could be him distancing himself from one or more of his potential partners.

So that's why I unvoted RBT.

[X]

Ooh, this could be the first time I get to hammer scum.

Vote: RBT

.

[X]

I have no idea what icemanE's sanity is. Fake is quite the possibility. Guilty on RBT (Godfather), innocent on Xtoxm (VT), and innocent on Bionicchop2.

Mod, do you consider Framers normal? Do you consider any type of Cop outside of { Sane, Insane, Paranoid, Naive } normal?

I ultimately doubt that his investigation on BC2 can tell us anything.

The double-bus theory sticks out to me as a way to spread suspicion to others when it was starting to look like we could narrow down suspects to Rice as pretty certain scum and then 2/4 from the remaining (KoC / Chaz / Fark / Myself) with one of them (minimum) getting investigated.

Call me stupid, but I really don't know what you just said.

Well, any belief I had in the miller claim is pretty much evaporated, and iceman's cop claim now really worries me, since only an idiot wouldn't check someone who (misguidedly) didn't hammer RBT because he had a bit of doubt there.
So, those would be my top two suspects - X and iceman, because I don't trust either of their claims.

I would think that 3 confirmed Cops & 1 Godfather makes it all the more likely that a Miller would exist. So there has to be some other reason why you would tag me as scum.

[X]

Simulpost...um, I really wanted Chaz to weigh in/replace first. That was the prevailing reason that I waited.

[X]

I have no idea what icemanE's sanity is. Fake is quite the possibility. Guilty on RBT (Godfather), innocent on Xtoxm (VT), and innocent on Bionicchop2.

Minor point, but his other innocent was on afatchic.

Oh, right. I knew it was confirmed town. It was just the other way around - Xtoxm was proclaimed innocent by afatchic.

The double-bus theory sticks out to me as a way to spread suspicion to others when it was starting to look like we could narrow down suspects to Rice as pretty certain scum and then 2/4 from the remaining (KoC / Chaz / Fark / Myself) with one of them (minimum) getting investigated.

Call me stupid, but I really don't know what you just said.

Not sure which part is throwing you off, but I will attempt to clarify.

Players remaining were:

Ice
afatchic
RBT
KoC
Chaz
Fark
bionicchop2

After the reports, the simplest theory is Ice + afatchic as town with RBT as scum. Any mix of 1-2 of the 3 as scum is fairly plausible. All 3 as scum is the most extreme and least likely. This avenue would be more likely pursued by someone trying to push suspicion as far away from them self and any partners. If there are 2 scum in the group of 4 (KoC, Chaz, Fark, me) then scum would know there would be one more cop report that could incriminate / clear somebody.

KoC throwing suspicion at afatchic and ice expands the realm of suspects so it isn't narrowed down to a group including him. Now if eh suspected them and made a case for each player, I would be less suspicious of the action. Where was he when I was voting for iceman earlier that day or the day before?

So your criticism is basically that icemanE + afatchic + RBT as the scumteam was a radical proposition, and KoC didn't properly develop the proposition to seem viable or like an honest conclusion.

[X]

I see how that's suspicious.

[X]

Claiming doesn't seem like it'll be of any use in this game (although I'm obviously vanilla, unless you think the mod would let inactive power role players skip their night abilities).

As you said, don't claim...

I am getting the vibe that this Mafia is a satire of Portland, where, assumedly, there are cops everywhere but they don't do their job. XD

Not really familiar with Portland, but that's pretty funny all the same.
Keep going! You're a little over halfway.

[X]

Yeah, confirming a townie was the best move last night IMO.

WTF? And how did you think that your results would matter?

I have no opposition to a massclaim, and I think it should be popcorned.

I am opposed to a massclaim, and I've already claimed. Tell me, how would that possibly help the town?

[X]

I want to go piece by piece through your posts later, Casey. I think I'll get a chance sometime this week. Holes that I already see in your conclusions are icemanE and afatchic's sanities.

X:
++Town for claiming miller before the cop setup was known. My role PM was very small, so I believe yours to be small too. Pseudo-confirmed.

While I agree with the first sentence, I don't understand the second.

I'm also not ready to say that you're town, Casey.

As for the mass claim, I don't think it helps us right now and could hurt us.

If by chance we have another power role besides Ice, I would think we would want that kept hidden. If we had a doctor who by some chance managed to guess wrong on all the cop deaths, we definitely don't want scum to know - especially on mylo (small percentage to not lose if we mislynch). Also, if we had a vigilante we would need that player hidden in case of a mislynch (could extend the game another day).

I would support MC in many situations, but I think town has revealed a lot about themselves so far in this game and I think we should reserve some mystery.

QFT.

For the second time:

Mod, do you consider Framers normal? Do you consider any type of Cop outside of { Sane, Insane, Paranoid, Naive } normal?

And an addendum:

Is a Godfather investigation-immune (ie, shows up as if he was a VT to Cops)?

The definition of a normal game states

A normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.

Other (new or otherwise) roles can be included. However, there should be no more than 1-2 of these, and they should be based around the usual game mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Voting. "

A Framer, as I understand it, is based around the mechanic of Investigating, so I would allow it in a Normal Game.

The above should not be considered confirmation or denial that there is a framer in this game.

The "standard" sanities for cops are sane, insane, paranoid, and naive. I would not consider any other type of cop "normal".

A Godfather is treated as a vanilla townie for investigation purposes.

[X]

I don't think I can make a solid conclusion about anybody based on this.

Darn, I was hoping someone could...

There better be a good explanation post-game.

[X]

Mod: Does a framer give a Cop a guilty verdict regardless of the

alignment

sanity of the Cop?

Fixed.

My suggestion is to forget about the investigations & lynching scum today.

I'll complete my voting pattern list later & post it for everyone to analyze.

[X]

Okay...underlined names are mod-confirmed town. The italicized name is mod-confirmed scum. => 0 is an unvote without a vote. All names are those of the most recent users.

Vote Analysis

BC2 =>

RBT

X =>

afatchic

Adams

=> BC2
FIS => BC2
icemanE => Casey
Casey => FIS

q21

=> X

G-Force

=>

Xtoxm

afatchic

=> X

X claims Miller

q21

=> 0

Adams

=> X

q21

=>

G-Force

FIS =>

Adams

X =>

Adams

Casey =>

Adams

Adams

=> 0
KoC =>

Adams

BC2 => Casey

Adams

=> KoC
BC2 =>

Adams

Adams

claims VT

Xtoxm

=>

afatchic

q21

=>

RBT

BC2 =>

afatchic

X =>

afatchic

icemanE =>

Adams

q21

=>

afatchic

Casey => icemanE

afatchic

=>

Xtoxm

FIS => KoC
KoC =>

Xtoxm

X =>

Xtoxm

KoC =>

Xtoxm

Adams

=>

RBT

FIS =>

Xtoxm

X => 0

Xtoxm

=>

Xtoxm

q21

=>

Xtoxm

Xtoxm

claims VT

Xtoxm

=> 0
BC2 =>

Xtoxm

BC2 =>

afatchic

Casey =>

afatchic

q21

=>

afatchic

RBT

=>

afatchic

Adams

=> 0

afatchic

claims Cop

BC2 => 0

Xtoxm

=> icemanE

q21

claims Cop

FIS => 0

Xtoxm

=>

afatchic

Casey => 0

Adams

=>

q21

Adams

=> 0
X =>

Xtoxm

X =>

afatchic

G-Force

=> 0

Adams

=> icemanE
BC2 =>

afatchic

G-Force

=> X
FIS =>

afatchic

Xtoxm

=> 0

G-Force

claims Cop

Xtoxm

=>

afatchic

BC2 => 0
FIS => 0

G-Force

=> 0
X => 0

q21

=> 0
Casey => 0

q21

=>

Adams

Xtoxm

=> KoC
KoC =>

Xtoxm

Adams

=> 0

G-Force

=>

Adams

BC2 =>

Adams

X =>

Adams

Adams

=> KoC
Casey =>

RBT

RBT

=>

Adams

icemanE => 0
icemanE =>

Adams

Casey =>

Adams

End of D1

Start of D2

KoC =>

Xtoxm

Xtoxm

=> KoC

afatchic

claims Guilty on

Xtoxm

afatchic

=>

Xtoxm

G-Force

claims Guilty on

Xtoxm

icemanE =>

Xtoxm

FIS =>

Xtoxm

BC2 => icemanE
FIS => 0

Xtoxm

=> icemanE
FIS => icemanE
X =>

RBT

FIS => 0

RBT

=>

afatchic

FIS =>

Xtoxm

Casey => icemanE
X => BC2

RBT

=>

Xtoxm

Xtoxm

=>

Xtoxm

End of D2

Start of D3

afatchic

claims Innocent on

RBT

afatchic

=>

RBT

icemanE =>

RBT

icemanE => 0

RBT

claims VT

BC2 => NL
X => NL
FIS => NL

afatchic

=> NL

icemanE claims Cop
icemanE claims Guilty on

RBT

icemanE claims Innocent on

afatchic

BC2 =>

RBT

afatchic

=>

RBT

FIS => 0
X =>

RBT

RBT

=> X
icemanE =>

RBT

X => 0
FIS =>

RBT

X =>

RBT

End of D3

Start of D4

icemanE claims Innocent on BC2

BC2 => KoC
BC2 => NL
BC2 => 0

[X]

Vote: KoC

.

I can see that KoC only ever put RBT in a negative light when he proposed the afatchic-icemanE-RBT scumgroup. His vote pattern (or lake thereof) is odd. And yeah, his disbelief of icemanE is plausible, but disbelief of a Miller for no reason whatsoever besides my claim is unfounded. Seems like he's looking for someone to incriminate.

[X]

Bio and X: how certain are you that KoC is scum?

I can see that KoC only ever put RBT in a negative light when he proposed the afatchic-icemanE-RBT scumgroup. His vote pattern (or lake thereof) is odd. And yeah, his disbelief of icemanE is plausible, but disbelief of a Miller for no reason whatsoever besides my claim is unfounded. Seems like he's looking for someone to incriminate.

And like bionicchop2 said, it's in comparison to others' scumminesses.

[X]

Ugh. KoC was simply scummier than FIS. And the setup was, IMO, balanced toward scum. No doctor, no town kills, and wacky investigation stuff just made it weird.

I'm wonder if I would have survived if I wasn't pseudo-confirmed by my Miller claim.

And how did G-Force get a Guilty on Xtoxm if he was Naive?

...well, let's keep this 0% win record going.

Me too!

[X]

The primary motivation behind this setup was that I recently played a ton of live-action games in a row that devolved into follow-the-cop.

Ah, well, RL games are different. And this game was more follow-the-cop than either of the previous ones that I played on this site.

I know things weren't always smooth, but I had a lot of fun modding this game, and I hope you enjoyed playing it.

I had fun with it. On the other hand...

Nevertheless, I think there is a difference between Normal and normal. "Normal", which is what this game was, only has to meet the definitions posted in the wiki. There's a tacit understanding that things won't get TOO crazy, like Tarhalindur's Mind Screw games, but a "Normal" game does not have to be "normal". Our expectations of what a "normal" game are made up of the current meta of setups. Games that variate from the meta may not be what players expect by default, but at the same time, players shouldn't expect that things will ALWAYS be the same. Every one of us has a different idea of what "normal" is, so in most games SOMEBODY will be surprised.

You violated my expectations for a Normal game, and I would have appreciated if I knew that it was going to be wacky in the first place. That didn't make it any less fun to play - I just feel, retrospectively, that it was a handicap.

So, yes, the town had less firepower, but scum had to work extra hard to stay hidden.

The first part of the sentence is an extreme understatement. Eliminating the Cop is what I would consider less firepower. Having 5 roles that give misleading investigation results (GF, Miller, Framer, 2 Naive Cops) is too much.

So, in short: I liked the game, but in spite of the setup. While the intention to destroy the follow-the-cop attitude is nice, I think you went overboard. Anyway, thanks muchly for my first non-Newbie Game experience!