Mini 680: Portlandia- Game Over!

[Farkshinsoup]

Welcome Casey - thanks for replacing in. I dropped my keys somewhere in Day 2, if you see them, can you grab them for me?

Still waiting for Ice to explain his investigation choice. Am I the only one that finds it odd?

[colorred]Vote count will go up later when I am not hung over[/color]

[Knight of Cydonia]

No, I expected to be copped last night, to be honest.
I can't help but wonder why Ice would do it - I suppose the argument is "it confirms a townie", but all that really does is let the scum kill them as you confirm them.

[icemanE]

Yeah, confirming a townie was the best move last night IMO. But that's just what happened, not what I intended. I tried to pick someone fat wouldn't, so I picked someone under the radar. If fat somehow survived into today, we'd have two different reports. But I didn't want to risk wasting my investigation on fat because I figured chances were good one of us would die.

Is anyone opposed to a massclaim today?

[Knight of Cydonia]

I have no opposition to a massclaim, and I think it should be popcorned.

[X]

Yeah, confirming a townie was the best move last night IMO.

WTF? And how did you think that your results would matter?

I have no opposition to a massclaim, and I think it should be popcorned.

I am opposed to a massclaim, and I've already claimed. Tell me, how would that possibly help the town?

[Knight of Cydonia]

I said I had no opposition to it. I'm not actively saying "let's do it", but I'm not going to refuse to if the rest of the town wants to.

[icemanE]

WTF? And how did you think that your results would matter?

Because it was a toss up between either one of myself and fat dying, or neither of us dying. I thought the probabilities were about equal because people were doubting our claims yesterday and saying we might be scum, so I thought they might try a gambit. I wanted to ensure that I didn't target the same person as fat so we would have two different reports. I already explained that.

I think a massclaim today might be helpful going into tomorrow - in the off chance that there's an unclaimed doc who can protect me tonight, I will have a smaller pool from which to pick who I should investigate.

[Casey]

Here's the notes for day 2:

Zazier, 550: That was just dumb.

icemanE, 554, is being smart, but also fishing for more information! WIFOM: Could just be a bad play. By the whole town.

X, 555: "Well, I suspect both ZazieR and Xtoxm, and I wouldn't be too surprised with her either bussing or pulling Lepton's Gambit."

She was the first to claim cop in a cop-filled game. The odds of this happening -would- make it a surprise, at least to me. =/

Xtoxm's surrender, 556: Well, now I know how this day is going to end.

Starting page 24, I can see that day 2 is going to be bad. Really bad. The cop results don't help at all today, and because the lynch is going to be Xtoxm, the cop results aren't going to help at all! bc2 is the closest to realizing this.

Knight of Cydonia, 575, jumps on the bandwagon.

Knight of Cydonia, 580: "I'm happy to lynch a scummy player to confirm cop sanities." Too bad it won't!

x, 582, reinforces that it won't. +Town

chaz + fark, 586, gaming the mod. No help.

Knight, 587, and icemanE, 589: Aggressive play? Or have I found the scum?

bc2, 590, is either amazingly protown or amazingly good at pretending to be protown. I gotta give him applause if he's scum, but I highly doubt that he is.

RBT, 614: "That said, my top two right now are probably KoC and Ice. The two of them are pushing the wagon fairly hard, and could be attempting to shorten the day."

That post worries me. Did RBT really just call out his scumbuddies? Hard to determine. -Scumminess of Knight

bc2, 618: "My reread is done and I have a PbPa on all players. I am not going to post my analysis on everybody since I don't think that would accomplish much. I will just post my analysis of my top suspect."

I wish there was a little more information in that quote as to why. I am glad that icemanE is a suspect of bc2's. Case is weak, but it definitely points out iceman's contradictions.

bc2, 618: "I will say again what I said on Day 1. We need to scum hunt this game. The cops are basically a distraction until there is conclusive evidence of sanity."

I completely agree. +Town.

Knight, 620, chimes in. Null-tell.

Knight, 630, flames Xtoxm.

RBT, 682, surprisingly attacks X's miller claim after the sole vote. Very small +Town to X.

X, 688: Holy cow, this game stagnated!

I only play one game at a time so I can give it my full attention. Maybe more people should do the same.

The play in this game doesn't seem too smart, but I'm glad people have wisened up to it: The scum will kill the cops because they risk being investigated by a sane/insane cop. Claiming cop is just claiming confirmed innocent, nothing more. If a cop doesn't die each night, you can guarantee that that cop is scum.

Fark, 697: Null-tell against fark.

Knight, 702, asks for a claim of Xtoxm even though Xtoxm already claimed.

icemanE, 726, horrible, horrible post.

icemanE, 730, makes a crazy logic jump: "...which, to me, means he was expecting one of them to be guilty. Which, to me, means he's scum."

Fark, 735: "Bionic has aligned himself to closely with him - defending him, exhorting him to jump on the icewagon"

That's what Xtoxm did with Mr. Adams and they both turned up town. Suspicious.

icemanE, 737: Bad town play too lynch a cop or +scum? I think +scum.

icemanE, 741: Distancing from Riceball.

X, 747: Weak case, but bc2 is hard to read. Leaning town. Also, as a hyperbole, nobody in the world can spell "per se" correctly.

...

Well, that was a disappointing end to Day 2.

Day 2 and page 31 complete!

Yeah, confirming a townie was the best move last night IMO. But that's just what happened, not what I intended. I tried to pick someone fat wouldn't, so I picked someone under the radar. If fat somehow survived into today, we'd have two different reports. But I didn't want to risk wasting my investigation on fat because I figured chances were good one of us would die.

Oh no. I see where day 3 is headed.

icemanE +scum, looking forward to seeing who he claims he investigated in this gambit. XD

After seeing you say that 3 cops is crazy or not possible, seeing you claim cop is silly. I look forward to seeing who is which cop.

Reading page 32 now!

[Casey]

Day 3 notes, unedited to show my thought process:

If anything says that icemanE is not a cop, it's post 726:

Please refresh my interest in this game by telling me why I'm scum.

icemanE, 775: "And by that I mean your predecessor claimed cop. We have two cops verified and I'm not going to speak for everyone but I'm a little iffy on there being three cops."

icemanE, you got some splainin' to do!

icemanE, 783: "Unless the fourth cop is smart. There's always that chance." Hints at being cop, but I don't see how his previous self's actions support being a cop.

No idea why my previous self still thinks post-Zaz AFC is scum in 791. Bad plays.

I'm amused that AFC is the paranoid cop and that helped nail the godfather! XD

icemanE, 837: Yet another horrible post.

afc, 842: Weak case against Fark, but then again, he's only semi-town in my eyes so far.

icemanE, 845: "I've been playing my whole game based on cops so it shouldn't seem like something new."

Wow. How many times can you contradict yourself? XD +Scum.

icemanE, 855: "I don't see a whole heck of a lot of reason to doubt fat is the cop."

I really hate using semantics as an argument, but "the" cop? Not "a" cop? Small -Cop, small +Scum

icemanE, 857: Did you just reply to yourself and label it as afc's words?!

icemanE, 860, more fourth cop talk

X, 861: Good posting against icemanE.

icemanE, 864: OOH. Time to do some deduction!

Assuming that there's one of each cop (a bad thing to do to game the mod), he can only be either naive or sane.

* G-force and AFC got guilties on Xtomx, and beecause XtomX is innocent, that means they're the paranoid and insane cops.
* AFC got guilty on RBC, who was the godfather, so that means AFC is the paranoid cop.
* This leaves G-Force to be the insane cop.
* This means that Q21 and icemanE are the naive and sane cops.
* icemanE got guilty on Rice. Impossible for sane, possible for naive.
* icemanE got innocent on AFC. Dumb, but it backs up post 855.

Conclusion: icemanE is claiming naive cop and can back it up if he's scum, by outing Rice.

+Town for being plausible

icemanE, 875: "I picked rice pretty much at random night one."

Did you just copy & paste that from AFC's post? XD

Fark, 923: +Town for not hammering.

Knight, 924: Finally, some input. Would like to know your thoughts now that your trinity of scum is incorrect.

Knight, 934: Bad logic.

Day 3 ends, and now, on Day 4, all my conclusions come together and get thrown out the window.

[Casey]

I believe I have solved this mystery!

---

First, the cops:

q21: Sane Cop.
G-Force: Insane Cop.
icemanE: Naive Cop.
afatchic: Paranoid Cop.

Irony: The Paranoid Cop and the Naive Cop helped find scum. Lol!

---

Next, the suspects:

I have to choose 2 out of the 5:

Bionicchop2: (Who suggests Knight, Fark, or me)
Fark: (Who suggets Knight, himself, or me)
Knight: (Who suggests X and Iceman)
Ice: (Who is confused)
X: (Who has not suggested anyone!)

---

Finally my decisions:

Ice:
+++Town for being the Naive cop (and a somewhat naive player, at that!). Pseudo-confirmed.

X:
++Town for claiming miller before the cop setup was known. My role PM was very small, so I believe yours to be small too. Pseudo-confirmed.

Bio:
+Town for protown posts. Unconfirmed.

Fark:
++Scum for weak arguments and no strong scumhunting, and especially FOS ice after all this. Ice has had a horrible track record this game, so I feel it unlikely that he could craft such an airtight claim.

Knight:
+++Scum for many things I've mentioned in my posts, ending with accusing X and Iceman in one post! (lol!) Trying to buddy with Fark isn't going to work.

---

What now?

This has been an exciting read, everyone! I'm sorry that it's taken you all nearly four months to get here, yet I got to read it all in just a few days. It must have been torture.

I'm interested to hear what everyone has to say now. I've given you a lot of content with my journal of observations, ideas, suggestions, and conclusions. XD

I was totally convinced Ice was scum, even after he claimed cop. I wasn't excepting there to be one of each, rather there being a gang of cops that couldn't do their jobs right, lol!

X's claim of miller (which was before any of the game setup was known) should be 99% proof of townie at this point. Four cops + Godfather makes him an ideal balance for town.

The only WIFOM I've got is that Ice could have crafted a master ploy to be the Naive cop,

It's a hard decision between Bio, Fark, and Knight, filled with WIFOM. But I'm of the mindset that the best player should win, and the best and most protown player of those three is Bio, by far!

I say we hear what Bio, Fark, and Knight have to say about everything up to know, then start to wrap this game up.

I will vote for Knight of Cydonia or Farkshinsoup if bionicchop2, X, and icemanE are okay with this conclusion.

Now that I've give all my input, I await your input!

[Casey]

I think a massclaim today might be helpful going into tomorrow - in the off chance that there's an unclaimed doc who can protect me tonight, I will have a smaller pool from which to pick who I should investigate.

Sorry to say, but you're a naive cop, and with the godfather gone, your investigation is useless.

[bionicchop2]

Interesting read Casey. A few things I take issue with (but since we both seem to think Ice is cop despite early suspicions don't matter much).

You say AFC was paranoid, but he got an innocent. You say Ice is naive, but he got a guilty. Obv, I can't read the mod's miind, but that usually isn't how it works. Mod decides how everything works, but those two by definition will always get guilty or always get innocent.

I am more inclined to think we have someone who was Godfather by name only - which would be enforced by RBT pushing the "good luck figuring out your sanities". This would lead me to have:

ice: sane
AFC: insane
G-Force: Paranoid
Q-21: Naive (only by deduction and assumption of 4 standard cop roles).

This only becomes relevant if we gain another investigation or if somebody wishes to pursue me as a top suspect.

I was totally convinced Ice was scum, even after he claimed cop. I wasn't excepting there to be one of each, rather there being a gang of cops that couldn't do their jobs right, lol!

One problem I am having is figuring out your 180 on ice to where you believe the cop claim. I know I made a similar change, but I didn't know he was cop until he claimed. You had the advantage of knowing he was cop while you were reading and could interpret what he was saying with that idea. I personally tend to view cops as scummy (and many walk the razor's edge). Looking back on many of Ice's scummy actions, they really seemed to fit with how a cop might play (not me personally, but certainly valid play as a cop).

-He was overly concerned with who the cops were going to investigate. Seemed to be directing them. Looks scummy. Read with the idea he is cop, it makes sense.
-Pushing to lynch xtoxm. Looked scummy to me. I think he wanted to learn sanities more than he let on since it would also give him some information about himself and the results he got.

I guess I am curious to know what convinced you at the end of your read to list him as pretty much confirmed.

[bionicchop2]

As for the mass claim, I don't think it helps us right now and could hurt us.

If by chance we have another power role besides Ice, I would think we would want that kept hidden. If we had a doctor who by some chance managed to guess wrong on all the cop deaths, we definitely don't want scum to know - especially on mylo (small percentage to not lose if we mislynch). Also, if we had a vigilante we would need that player hidden in case of a mislynch (could extend the game another day).

I would support MC in many situations, but I think town has revealed a lot about themselves so far in this game and I think we should reserve some mystery.

[Casey]

You say AFC was paranoid, but he got an innocent. You say Ice is naive, but he got a guilty. Obv, I can't read the mod's miind, but that usually isn't how it works. Mod decides how everything works, but those two by definition will always get guilty or always get innocent.

I've never had a game like this. I guess it really could go either way. Again, I hate to game the mod, but you guys have asked the mod for clarification on what a naive cop gets on a godfather. My idea was that naive cop always gets innocent + godfather reverses result = guilty.

Your idea sounds plausible too, if godfather effect has no effect on a naive cop.

If he is sane, then that clears you.

If he is scum, well... then I don't know what to think.

I thought I figured it out.

One problem I am having is figuring out your 180 on ice to where you believe the cop claim. I know I made a similar change, but I didn't know he was cop until he claimed. You had the advantage of knowing he was cop while you were reading and could interpret what he was saying with that idea.

I probably should have known that (even though I said that I read page 38 before starting at the beginning), but I was skimming and just saw cop talk but forgot who it was attributed to until near the end of my thread reading.

I read the thread like a story. I knew the dead people's info, but didn't want to spoil anything else. Possibly a bad idea, but I didn't want to put any bias on people with the current situation before getting to know them.

I guess I am curious to know what convinced you at the end of your read to list him as pretty much confirmed.

His story fits. It sounds believable. His actions before revealing support his claim and he's kept true to being a cop.

The one post that really irks me, though, is the one where he tells people to prove that he's scum to get him interested in the game again. Okay, the post where he lists his three suspects as "poop" or something like that irks me too. A couple of his posts do, but it's near impossible to play a perfect protown game when you're on any side, so I'm lenient.

[X]

I want to go piece by piece through your posts later, Casey. I think I'll get a chance sometime this week. Holes that I already see in your conclusions are icemanE and afatchic's sanities.

X:
++Town for claiming miller before the cop setup was known. My role PM was very small, so I believe yours to be small too. Pseudo-confirmed.

While I agree with the first sentence, I don't understand the second.

I'm also not ready to say that you're town, Casey.

As for the mass claim, I don't think it helps us right now and could hurt us.

If by chance we have another power role besides Ice, I would think we would want that kept hidden. If we had a doctor who by some chance managed to guess wrong on all the cop deaths, we definitely don't want scum to know - especially on mylo (small percentage to not lose if we mislynch). Also, if we had a vigilante we would need that player hidden in case of a mislynch (could extend the game another day).

I would support MC in many situations, but I think town has revealed a lot about themselves so far in this game and I think we should reserve some mystery.

QFT.

For the second time:

Mod, do you consider Framers normal? Do you consider any type of Cop outside of { Sane, Insane, Paranoid, Naive } normal?

And an addendum:

Is a Godfather investigation-immune (ie, shows up as if he was a VT to Cops)?

The definition of a normal game states

A normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.

Other (new or otherwise) roles can be included. However, there should be no more than 1-2 of these, and they should be based around the usual game mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Voting. "

A Framer, as I understand it, is based around the mechanic of Investigating, so I would allow it in a Normal Game.

The above should not be considered confirmation or denial that there is a framer in this game.

The "standard" sanities for cops are sane, insane, paranoid, and naive. I would not consider any other type of cop "normal".

A Godfather is treated as a vanilla townie for investigation purposes.

[bionicchop2]

OK, with what the mod said about the godfather, I need to look at sanities again.

Afatchic gets guilty on Xtoxm n1 (wrong) and inno on RBT (correct)
Ice gets guilty on RBT (incorrect) inno on afatchic (correct) innocent on me (correct from my perspective)

My instinct would be that Xtoxm was framed n1 and afatchic would be sane. I am not sure why RBT would get framed or anybody would alter the status of their godfather. This leads me to think Ice is insane to get a guilty on RBT. Then he should have had guilty results on afatchic and me.

So, if we think 'framer', then there would have to be some framer luck involved to frame 3 people who got investigated (Xtoxm, afatchic and myself - last 2 actually flip to innocent in an ironic twist)

There has to be somebody who can alter investigation results in order for afatchic to have the results he did.

Since afatchic is confirmed, we know that n1, either xtoxm was framed or afatchic was targeted with some kind of mechanism that messed with his results. This makes Ice's n1 invest on RBT put him as insane.

I don't think I can make a solid conclusion about anybody based on this. All it does for me right now is increase the chance Ice could be scum running a gambit.

With 6 players alive and probable 2 scum, I am now in the mind frame to

unvote KoC; vote no lynch

.

[X]

I don't think I can make a solid conclusion about anybody based on this.

Darn, I was hoping someone could...

There better be a good explanation post-game.

[Casey]

I want to go piece by piece through your posts later, Casey. I think I'll get a chance sometime this week. Holes that I already see in your conclusions are icemanE and afatchic's sanities.

As I've learned.

X:
++Town for claiming miller before the cop setup was known. My role PM was very small, so I believe yours to be small too. Pseudo-confirmed.

While I agree with the first sentence, I don't understand the second.

I'm also not ready to say that you're town, Casey.

Never mind the second. It's gaming the mod, which isn't a good reason for anything. What I was trying to say is that my role PM had no flavor to it. And from there I extrapolated that your role PM had no flavor in it, which would make a page 1 miller claim an incredible gambit without knowing there was cop shenanigans in the game. Unfortunately, this is gaming the mod, and thus it's poor reasoning.

You not saying that I'm town is completely understandable. Chaz said a few odd things, and I have no way to prove that I'm town. The only way I can hope you'll believe me is with attempts to scumhunt. I'm certainly not the best, but I'm trying.

It's much harder to find guilt in words than voices.

A Framer, as I understand it, is based around the mechanic of Investigating, so I would allow it in a Normal Game.

The above should not be considered confirmation or denial that there is a framer in this game.

The "standard" sanities for cops are sane, insane, paranoid, and naive. I would not consider any other type of cop "normal".

A Godfather is treated as a vanilla townie for investigation purposes

That's a real bummer.

---

Let's look at this with a framer and without a framer. I will attempt to find out if Ice is lying about being a cop and if the results can point to BC2's guilt or innocence, based on the fact that RBC should be treated like a VT according to the mod. A framer is assumed to give a Cop a guilty verdict regardless of the alignment of Cop.

Without a framer:
G-Force, proven Cop:
1) Guilty on Xtoxm (Incorrect: G-Force is Insane / Paranoid)

AFC, proven Cop:
1) Guilty on Xtoxm (Incorrect: AFC is Insane / Paranoid)
2) Innocent on RBT (Correct: AFC is Naive / Sane)
Impossible!!

Ice, unproven Cop:
1) Guilty on RBT (Incorrect: Ice is Insane / Paranoid)
2) Innocent on AFC (Correct: Ice is Naive / Sane)
3) Innocent on BC2 (Unknown)
Impossible!!

---

With that, we can come to the conclusion that there is a framer. Let's look at this with a framer.

Could Xtoxm have been framed night 1?

G-Force, proven Cop:
1) Guilty on Xtoxm

AFC, proven Cop:
1) Guilty on Xtoxm

Yes. Very likely, too, because of the town talk of who was going to be investigated. Because of this, we cannot narrow down their possible alignments at all.

Night 2:

Whoever was framed night 2 was not targeted, as both results are innocent:

AFC, proven Cop:
2) Innocent on RBT (Correct: AFC is Naive / Sane)

Ice, unproven Cop:
2) Innocent on AFC (Correct: Ice is Naive / Sane)

We can, however, conclude that both of them are either Naive or Sane.

Night 3:

Ice investigates BC2. Turns up innocent. BC2 was not framed.

Ice, unproven Cop:
1) Guilty on RBT (Incorrect)
2) Innocent on AFC (Correct)
3) Innocent on BC2 (Unknown)

...what?

I see no possible way that Ice is a cop unless both of the remaining scum are framers and they framed Xtoxm and RBT night 1, and then have missed their framing every night since!

Possible conclusion: Ice is scum.
Possible conclusion: There are two framers, and they framed... me and X last night?? Unlikely.

---

Now let's look at this one more time from a different angle.

Let's look at this with a different interpretation of the rules of a framer (this is giving me a headache). A framer is assumed to give a Cop a guilty verdict

which is then altered by the alignment of Cop

.

Night 1:

Either Xtoxm or RBT is framed. The former is more likely.

If Xtoxm was framed...

G-Force, proven Cop:
1) Guilty on Xtoxm (Correct: G-Force is Sane / Paranoid)

AFC, proven Cop:
1) Guilty on Xtoxm (Correct: AFC is Sane / Paranoid)

Ice, unproven Cop:
1) Guilty on RBT (Incorrect: Ice is Insane / Paranoid)

If we assume that there is one of each cop, then with the above information, that makes Ice the Insane Cop (hooray for Sudoku logic). His innocent results in the next days disprove him as a Paranoid cop, too. Insane it is.

Night 2 comes along, and we get...

AFC, proven Cop:
2) Innocent on RBT (Correct: AFC is Sane)

Ice, unproven Cop:
2) Innocent on AFC (Correct, but should have been incorrect if Ice is Insane)

This means that the mafia framed AFC? Kill off G-Force, and frame AFC? That means they had to have predicted that there was a fourth cop that would investigate AFC (I forget when it was that Ice started dropping breadcrumbs, and this is already a headache).

Regardless, an innocent on BC2 in this case means that BC2 is guilty.

Possible Conclusion: Mafia framed AFC night 2. Ice is insane cop. BC2 is scum.

---

Finally, if RBT was framed...

G-Force, proven Cop:
1) Guilty on Xtoxm (Incorrect: G-Force is Insane / Paranoid)

AFC, proven Cop:
1) Guilty on Xtoxm (Incorrect: AFC is Insane / Paranoid)

Ice, unproven Cop:
1) Guilty on RBT (Correct: Ice is Sane / Paranoid)

This time around, Ice is supposed to be the sane cop, because of the next nights' results.

Night 2 comes along, and we get...

AFC, proven Cop:
2) Innocent on RBT (Correct, but should have been incorrect because AFB is either Paranoid or Insane)

Ice, unproven Cop:
2) Innocent on AFC (Correct)

Again, that means the scum framed RBT again.

Which leaves us open to Ice is scum, or Ice is the sane cop (which makes BC2 innocent).

---

Wow. That was one massive headache... did I cover everything? Did I make any typos? Here's what we have:

1) If the mod doesn't factor sanity into the result of a framer: Either Ice is scum, or there are two framers, and they framed me and X last night and framed Xtoxm and RBT night 1.

If the mod does factor sanity, then...

2) If you believe Xtoxm was framed night 1: Mafia framed AFC night 2. Ice is insane cop. BC2 is scum.

3) If you believe RBT was framed night 1 and night 2: Either Ice is scum, or Ice is the sane cop and BC2 is innocent.

---

3 seems very improbable.

1 will need a mod conformation.

2 is what I most suspect now.

BC2, I am surprised at your no-lynch vote. You know that doesn't help the town at all at this point. It would just mean that one misvote tomorrow would spell game over.

I don't think I can make a solid conclusion about anybody based on this. All it does for me right now is increase the chance Ice could be scum running a gambit.

Moreover, it increases the chance that you are scum. Saying you're confused instead of asking the mod for clarification also shows a reluctance to solve the game.

At this point, I would like another mod answer before placing a vote.

Mod: Does a framer give a Cop a guilty verdict regardless of the alignment of the Cop?

A framer's night action would resolve after any roleblocker's night actions and before any investigative role's night actions.

[icemanE]

Well I'm glad you did all that thinking for me, I don't believe I ever would have had the time to work that all out.

Anyways, this:

2) If you believe Xtoxm was framed night 1: Mafia framed AFC night 2. Ice is insane cop. BC2 is scum.

...seems to be the most plausible conclusion, because I don't know why the mod wouldn't factor in sanities - otherwise, why would sanities be assigned?

[bionicchop2]

2) If you believe Xtoxm was framed night 1: Mafia framed AFC night 2. Ice is insane cop. BC2 is scum

If you go the route of Xtoxm framed (for afatchic's guilty) , afatchic framed (for Ice's innocent), the logical conclusion is NOT me as scum (though it is a possibility from the investigations).

There were 4 suspects going into night (chaz/casey, myself, fark, KoC). 2 of them are scum. That leaves 2 people to frame if a framer exists. This means ice would get an innocent (guilty in reality) on half of the town players.

To conclude that I am scum based on an investigation where we are starting to think there is a framer is not very wise.

BC2, I am surprised at your no-lynch vote. You know that doesn't help the town at all at this point. It would just mean that one misvote tomorrow would spell game over.

If you find a game where scum manages to do a quick double vote and hammer after one town vote for the win, I will concern myself with that. There are WIFOM reasons I think a night might help us.

[Farkshinsoup]

I suck at all of this cop sanity stuff. Re:Casey, I'm not sure if all of that was meant to clarify things for us or muddy the waters even more.

Ice, have you ever played with a framer before? If so, could you point us to that game? If not, how did you come to know about the framer? It's not a common role, I'd actually never heard about it before (I haven't been playing here for long, and there's a lot of roles I haven't encountered yet. I may be in the minority)

Since you are the one who brought it up in the first place, I'd like to know more about how you got there.

[bionicchop2]

Framer is MD

Framer on wiki

My inclination is to go with the idea that framing occurs before investigation. The nature of framing is to plant evidence, etc. An insane cop would sot come in and get a guilty report on a framed innocent IMO (this would hurt the framer role by clearing a player)

It is painfully obvious that this game was designed to negate the powers of the cops and prevent blind cop following. We already know there was a GF, there is a claimed miller and we suspect a framer (or similar role which has produced different results on two 'innocent' players when investigated by the same cop).

I don't see why we should continue to try and guess what happened and who might have been framed. Look for scummy actions and make a case.

unvote no lynch

. I was starting to question my confidence in Ice-town which was my initial reason to think NL as an option (dead ice would obviously confirm him). I am back to seeing him as pretty solid town (4 cops fits the setup IMO) and the night would not clarify anything for me.

[X]

Mod: Does a framer give a Cop a guilty verdict regardless of the

alignment

sanity of the Cop?

Fixed.

My suggestion is to forget about the investigations & lynching scum today.

I'll complete my voting pattern list later & post it for everyone to analyze.

[X]

Okay...underlined names are mod-confirmed town. The italicized name is mod-confirmed scum. => 0 is an unvote without a vote. All names are those of the most recent users.

Vote Analysis

BC2 =>

RBT

X =>

afatchic

Adams

=> BC2
FIS => BC2
icemanE => Casey
Casey => FIS

q21

=> X

G-Force

=>

Xtoxm

afatchic

=> X

X claims Miller

q21

=> 0

Adams

=> X

q21

=>

G-Force

FIS =>

Adams

X =>

Adams

Casey =>

Adams

Adams

=> 0
KoC =>

Adams

BC2 => Casey

Adams

=> KoC
BC2 =>

Adams

Adams

claims VT

Xtoxm

=>

afatchic

q21

=>

RBT

BC2 =>

afatchic

X =>

afatchic

icemanE =>

Adams

q21

=>

afatchic

Casey => icemanE

afatchic

=>

Xtoxm

FIS => KoC
KoC =>

Xtoxm

X =>

Xtoxm

KoC =>

Xtoxm

Adams

=>

RBT

FIS =>

Xtoxm

X => 0

Xtoxm

=>

Xtoxm

q21

=>

Xtoxm

Xtoxm

claims VT

Xtoxm

=> 0
BC2 =>

Xtoxm

BC2 =>

afatchic

Casey =>

afatchic

q21

=>

afatchic

RBT

=>

afatchic

Adams

=> 0

afatchic

claims Cop

BC2 => 0

Xtoxm

=> icemanE

q21

claims Cop

FIS => 0

Xtoxm

=>

afatchic

Casey => 0

Adams

=>

q21

Adams

=> 0
X =>

Xtoxm

X =>

afatchic

G-Force

=> 0

Adams

=> icemanE
BC2 =>

afatchic

G-Force

=> X
FIS =>

afatchic

Xtoxm

=> 0

G-Force

claims Cop

Xtoxm

=>

afatchic

BC2 => 0
FIS => 0

G-Force

=> 0
X => 0

q21

=> 0
Casey => 0

q21

=>

Adams

Xtoxm

=> KoC
KoC =>

Xtoxm

Adams

=> 0

G-Force

=>

Adams

BC2 =>

Adams

X =>

Adams

Adams

=> KoC
Casey =>

RBT

RBT

=>

Adams

icemanE => 0
icemanE =>

Adams

Casey =>

Adams

End of D1

Start of D2

KoC =>

Xtoxm

Xtoxm

=> KoC

afatchic

claims Guilty on

Xtoxm

afatchic

=>

Xtoxm

G-Force

claims Guilty on

Xtoxm

icemanE =>

Xtoxm

FIS =>

Xtoxm

BC2 => icemanE
FIS => 0

Xtoxm

=> icemanE
FIS => icemanE
X =>

RBT

FIS => 0

RBT

=>

afatchic

FIS =>

Xtoxm

Casey => icemanE
X => BC2

RBT

=>

Xtoxm

Xtoxm

=>

Xtoxm

End of D2

Start of D3

afatchic

claims Innocent on

RBT

afatchic

=>

RBT

icemanE =>

RBT

icemanE => 0

RBT

claims VT

BC2 => NL
X => NL
FIS => NL

afatchic

=> NL

icemanE claims Cop
icemanE claims Guilty on

RBT

icemanE claims Innocent on

afatchic

BC2 =>

RBT

afatchic

=>

RBT

FIS => 0
X =>

RBT

RBT

=> X
icemanE =>

RBT

X => 0
FIS =>

RBT

X =>

RBT

End of D3

Start of D4

icemanE claims Innocent on BC2

BC2 => KoC
BC2 => NL
BC2 => 0

[bionicchop2]

1st thing that pops out to me is RBT only voted 5 times on 4 people over the course of 3 days. 2 of those were for the player eventually lynched and the popular vote at the time (Adams D1, Xtoxm D2). Mixed in were 2 votes on afatchic (one when it was Zazier since it was D1) and 1 vote for X. 3 of the players who she voted for are confirmed town. It stands to reason that X is also town as she did not show signs of distancing with any votes.

I will look to see who has similar voting patterns. I got hooked on looking at voting for a span of a few games, but the end results were leaning towards inconsistent. I still think the scum tendency is to change votes less frequently and vote for fewer people (harder to read in later days).