Alisae V Pine: Trees Apparently Make Good Treestumps

[Something_Smart]

Why would Maria fake claim as town

I don’t know her as a player very well

Is she like boon or what

She did a roleswap in Excalibur but she was a PR in an open setup so she was never in danger of being mislynched.

[Something_Smart]

I really do want everyone to walk away friends here. We’ve already driven Lexi and Keith away.

Probably the only person I'm going to criticize postgame is Jingle. I really don't think this setup was well-designed for balance or for enjoyment.

[Something_Smart]

Pine suggested a white flag ending. If you are in favor of this, please let me know via PM. Please do not discuss this ITT.

Can you define this?

[Something_Smart]

Ali what was your full mason draft list?

[Something_Smart]

I want to win this game

That shouldn't be your goal. Your goal should be to play well.

This is a team game, and your team has dropped the ball big-time. If you lose, and you probably will, it won't mean that you played badly; it may not even mean that you did anything wrong! (Of course you did do things wrong because nobody is perfect, but they were minor things.)

You really REALLY should not put a high value on winning this game. In addition to stressing you out it has a high chance of leading to disappointment and self-recrimination if you think that you could or should have been able to win it.

Just play the game, do what you can, and if you lose chalk it up to the boundary conditions of the universe

[Something_Smart]

That feeling is exponentially more likely to be wrong the more scum remain. With five, even though each individual read may have a high probability of being right, in aggregate the odds are really not as good as you feel they are.

By all means, take your best shot. I'll help with that however I can... but don't expect that you'll get it right.

[Something_Smart]

Maria why did you heal me N2?

[Something_Smart]

OH FOR FUCK SAKE SS YOU KNOW THIS SHE’S NOT A DOCTOR

Wait did you tell her to fakeclaim it? If not why did she do it?

[Something_Smart]

Let's just do this.
VOTE: Firebringer

[Something_Smart]

Ali if this game is causing you to lose sleep it's a problem. The best thing we can do is get it over with and not dwell on it.

[Something_Smart]

Because thats obviously a town suggestion

It's an ethical suggestion. This game is a pile of trash and the sooner it ends the happier everyone will be.

[Something_Smart]

And I'm also trying to prevent you from feeling responsible for a mistake today by taking matters into my own hands.

If you promise that you won't blame yourself no matter what happens, I'll unvote.

[Something_Smart]

Regardless, you seem pretty stressed out about the game. I don't really think the slight increase in win chance that comes from dragging it out is worth that.

[Something_Smart]

That's fair.
UNVOTE:
Do you not think Firebringer is the safest vote here?

[Something_Smart]

He openwolfed by grabbing the governor and then used it aggressively (and survivalistically-- compare to Merchant's Daughter where he left the dance on an impulse), he's done shit-all since then, I don't remember anything he's done being genuine or contributing to scumhunting or producing a positive gamestate, and both mastina and Titus died having him as lockscum.

[Something_Smart]

I don't really see why the lynch should be anyone other than Firebringer

[Something_Smart]

And incidentally if Fire flips scum PB is next because PB is the reason I didn't lynch Fire days ago.

[Something_Smart]

I actually feel good about this PB scumread

This is weird

[Something_Smart]

Definitely Fire. The PB read was entirely derivative from Fire being scum anyway.

[Something_Smart]

Help me with what

[Something_Smart]

Why were you townreading him before and how did you realize it was wrong?

[Something_Smart]

They literally already have one.

[Something_Smart]

The protection doesn't matter. Either Krazy shoots someone in the lynchpool-- giving us an extra mislynch-- or he doesn't, outing him as scum and maybe killing his target if he was lucky enough to miss your protection, but even if he does kill his target we don't lose a mislynch or expand the lynchpool and the only thing lost is a town voice which at this point in time is practically worthless.

[Something_Smart]

I fail to see how that helps at all.

[Something_Smart]

Page 463 is the best page.

[Something_Smart]

no its literally mentally challenged.

Can we not

[Something_Smart]

Right?

[Something_Smart]

Jingle: does "the governor fruit spoils in XYLO" mean "the governor fruit cannot be used once XYLO is reached" or "the governor fruit cannot be used in XYLO"?

[Something_Smart]

Source post?

4838
5432
10145

In my opinion, the statement "It spoils immediately when the Town:scum ratio reaches (x+2):x" explicitly claims that the fruit can no longer be used once MYLO is reached. (I think it's reasonable that if you're applying a truth filter to Pine, your interpretation of his statements ought to be public.) Do you agree with that opinion, and if so, is the statement a lie?

[Something_Smart]

It spoils immediately when the Town:scum ratio reaches (x+2):x." is objectively true.

I cannot specify what 'spoils' means in the context of this game.

There's only one thing it could reasonably mean.

I contend that if the fruit is usable now, he has stated something that he expected to be interpreted in a way that is incorrect, which is a lie, since lying is about intent and not about a literal correspondence between the words and the world (which doesn't exist anyway).

Ask anyone whether a fruit, once spoiled, can become unspoiled, and they'll tell you no, because that's part of our understanding of what it means for fruit to spoil. Pine knows this, and he chose his wording to produce that interpretation. If the fruit can unspoil, he lied, plain and simple.

[Something_Smart]

Again, I can say that he didn't lie. I can't say anything more.

Can you say how you're defining "lie"?

[Something_Smart]

Moon logic of the highest caliber

To be fair, my opinion of this game is already in the toilet, so I'd be lying if I said I expected Jingle to listen to my argument.

(Or would I be lying? Who knows. Not Jingle, I bet.)

[Something_Smart]

I'm arguing with the mod about philosophy of language, I've never felt more alive this game

[Something_Smart]

"I can tell you that what Pine said is entirely true. I just can't tell you what Pine said."

Excellent.

[Something_Smart]

I would be extremely annoyed if I was the mod arguing this with you

I wouldn't blame you, it sucks as a mod to have your game mechanics get pointed out as contradictory or failing to cover something. It's happened to me before.

[Something_Smart]

It's not bastard, it's just a giant feel-bad mechanic.

[Something_Smart]

he said that long before it randed, and there's obviously a mechanic which is keeping him handing out fruit
he didn't hand out the rolecop fruit yday

i think he's in a situation where he has to give this one out and has no other option

I mean yes. That doesn't mean he was telling the truth about it being strong.

Or maybe more to the point, it doesn't mean he was

correct

about it being strong.

[Something_Smart]

yeah mena you don't take this

Why not? It's not like scum are going to resist you today anyway.

[Something_Smart]

I mean I’m not an idiot ali

We all are, we play on mafia scum dot net after all.

[Something_Smart]

Truth: The information in the Informed fruit has the potential to hardclear someone in your PoE.

You'll have to do better than that. "Potential" doesn't cut it.

[Something_Smart]

I agree the fucked up watch report was prob on balance towny

I don't think that's out of character for scum-Gamma.

[Something_Smart]

I gave up on being able to read Maria, like, years ago. But I trust Ali there.

[Something_Smart]

I promise to post nothing but lies for the rest of the game if you give me informed

[Something_Smart]

Hmm Pine

What if I promised to only tell the truth, including completely and honestly answering all questions posed to me?

[Something_Smart]

i don't believe in meta-cleared tho

Well, it exists.

[Something_Smart]

they said this til creature won a huge high profile game on MU

I mean Creature is a bad example because his meta of not trying as scum was mostly voluntary.

[Something_Smart]

In what world does Cephrir not give his honest opinion on whether it's a good idea to listen to Pine?

[Something_Smart]

It can be his honest opinion but something about his adamance strikes me as wrong.

Do you know what about it feels wrong?

[Something_Smart]

If you were me I'd be deathtunneling you.

I don't know how much that counts for.

[Something_Smart]

You're playing a lot like how I play as scum. Given that you and I are fairly similar players, it's concerning.

[Something_Smart]

I mean, if you were to put everyone on the site on a scale from "plays like me" to "plays nothing like me" you'd definitely be closer to the former than most people.

How would you describe the difference between your towngame and your scumgame?

[Something_Smart]

I think the core difference is that as town I am bolder, there are probably other minor differences too

What have you done that was bold this game besides boldly outing your watch result in order to test Alisae?

[Something_Smart]

Here Gamma, I'll level with you. In your recent posts I see a lot of trying to shift other people's opinions and/or perceptions. But I don't see you trying to change your own very much.

This may not be a scumtell for aggressive players who formulate reads, push the shit out of them, and then see what happens. But for less aggressive and more reactive players, like me-- and I think, like you, though I may be wrong-- this can belie an interest in controlling the game rather than solving it, which is scummy.

[Something_Smart]

ersatz

*googles*
"Not real or genuine"

[Something_Smart]

Random emotes why.

[Something_Smart]

I think my approach to the fruits I've chased has been somewhat bold

The reason I can't townread this is because Pine certainly has ideas on which fruits he wants his partners to get, and so if he suggested you should bargain for a certain fruit, you'd do it even if it superficially looked bad.

[Something_Smart]

Lol. Absent or not you have 471 posts, you should be able to point to something.

[Something_Smart]

Who did you want to neighborize again?

[Something_Smart]

Jingle: Were the town roles chosen before or after Pine picked the mafia roles?

[Something_Smart]

So what was stopping you from making all of the scum deathproof godfather roleblocker strongmen?

[Something_Smart]

I was just wondering if it's possible that Jingle put in a town tracker to interact with the scum visitor.

[Something_Smart]

Right, self-watcher.

[Something_Smart]

Visitor's not negative utility though as it's not compulsive?

[Something_Smart]

@Mod do scum have multitasking by default?

No

[Something_Smart]

Only the Vigfruit was lethal.

We don't know this, because all Jingle will verify is that "none of the other fruits are lethal for SOME definition of lethal."

[Something_Smart]

Jingle’s definitions may vary, but mine do not. I have told the truth with regard to fruit without exception.

Then can you rephrase both that line and the "governor fruit spoils" line in a completely unambiguous way?

[Something_Smart]

I don’t know what Jingle is on about.

He's on about the word "spoils." Once spoiled, is it permanently unusable?

[Something_Smart]

SO DO I BUT JINGLE DISAGREES >:(

[Something_Smart]

@Jingle people need prods

don't know what you're talking about

[Something_Smart]

VOTE SOMETHING aren’t you supposed to be SOMETHING SMART?

grumble grumble fine

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Something_Smart]

Why here, SS?

Town Gamma is actively towny, scum Gamma fades into the background.

Gamma has faded into the background.

[Something_Smart]

Something_Smart more like
Something_Not_Playing_The_Game

I think I've made my absolute lack of drive for this game pretty clear over the past few days.

I'll talk about stuff if you want though I guess. I don't think the messages Menalque posted are impossible for Pine to fake nor do I think they show desperation.

[Something_Smart]

Like straight-up I think most of the design elements of this game make it unfun and uninteresting, and I also think it's both scumsided and very swingy.

[Something_Smart]

SS, you said you don't think they show desperation. What do you think the purpose behind them was then?

It starts with W and ends with IFOM.

[Something_Smart]

Even if it's WIFOM, I don't think pine just does random WIFOM, I think he WIFOMs with intention. So I think the aim should be to try and figure out where the WIFOM was directed.

His intention is to mislead us about his intention.

[Something_Smart]

Like I really don't understand what's hard about this. His whole purpose is to get us to read into what he's doing so we can read into it wrong.

[Something_Smart]

I’m getting the sense you are massively out of touch with the game

No shit, Sherlock.

I'm really not wrong about Pine though. This setup is so scumsided he doesn't have to be proactive to win, so he can (and will) just be annoying.

[Something_Smart]

I mean, hider's results weren't reliable, given the commuter, the jailkeeper, and the likely strongman, bodyguard is barely a problem, and desperado, vig, and masons make a total of four conftown which is laughable for a game this big.

The masons were never not going to be outed because the format of the game highly incentivized everyone shutting up and doing what Alisae said. Vig you presumably had investigative roles to help you with, and desperado's one-shot anyway.

[Something_Smart]

I don't understand why you put so much emphasis on the fact that you're playing in good faith and then you say that. Like this setup isn't remotely balanced, unless there are two cops who are hiding and claimed VT during massclaim.

The mechanics are cool, that is true. But mechanics and balance are separate. Town used its resources; those resources didn't confer an advantage.

[Something_Smart]

In what way?

[Something_Smart]

The next person (besides Pine himself) to say that Pine spewed anything is scum.

[Something_Smart]

You've definitely spewed something this game.

[Something_Smart]

Fire is a known

twilight

troller

FTFY

[Something_Smart]

Are you against voting Gamma instead?

[Something_Smart]

We might have investigation results by D10 though.

[Something_Smart]

I don't scumread Iconeum, but I do trust PB.

[Something_Smart]

Aren't you more confident on Gamma/Dann/Ceph though?

[Something_Smart]

I mean... if we assume that Gamma/Dann/Ceph are all scum, and PB is town, and scum don't have any remaining way to kill or block PB, then we have a good chance to win without knowing the last scum, by lynching those three and protecting PB every night. Eventually it will come to PB + Iconeum/Maria/Menalque going into nights, and all PB has to do is randomize his track for a 5/6 chance of winning without any reads at all.

From those assumptions, our EV jumps from 1/3 to 5/6 if we lynch the known scum first. That's not negligible.

[Something_Smart]

As soon as D10 actually hits and no one dies, we are stuck with F4 of PB, Iconeum, Mena, Maria

You think scum would go for the draw after all that?

[Something_Smart]

he was blocked N5

Oh, that's even better, because either it's one-shot like Pine said, or one of the scum members is the roleblocker and the odds are good we'll lynch them before N9.

[Something_Smart]

Or Pine is the roleblocker but I think it's a lot more likely that Pine is a doctor.

[Something_Smart]

honestly a draw would be very fucked up in that situation.

Exactly, so scum won't go for it.

[Something_Smart]

Formerfish was blocked N3

Scum had a JK that night, and they almost certainly have at least one strongman shot.

[Something_Smart]

Jingle: what is the result of an endless cycle of no-lynches and no-kills?

[Something_Smart]

PP visited you.
PB confirmed this.

Right.

Well uh I'm putting whatever faith in Jingle I have left that the roleblocker is a player and not Pine.

[Something_Smart]

Go to bed Ali.

[Something_Smart]

Ali I'll sheep whatever you want tomorrow but only if you go to bed right now.

[Something_Smart]

Put in a bunch of random passcodes and lock yourself out for 5 minutes or something.

[Something_Smart]

how do you expect people to respond when you tell them they're garbage

In the immortal words of McMenno:

"aren't we all"

[Something_Smart]

*sadtrombone.wav*

[Something_Smart]

@jingle i hope you've learned a fucking huge lesson here.

FTFY.

[Something_Smart]

@everybody involved i hope you've learned a fucking huge lesson here.

FTFY.

Hey I was invited to this okay, I had no idea what I was getting into.

[Something_Smart]

There are only two things I'd like to talk about in postgame.

One, the setup, which I would like to see in its entirety, because Pine somehow insisted that town had resources that I sure as hell never saw.

And two.

WHO

DID

ANKAMIUS

TARGET???

[Something_Smart]

dude it was obviously me lol

No it wasn't.

It would have been so easy to work something like "I'll be at your house tonight" in.

[Something_Smart]

she said she was coming over to watch movies

She actually didn't, she avoided the phrasing of saying she was "coming over" which would have been so easy to say inconspicuously and so obvious in retrospect...

Like, come on. The hider was the only thing even approaching investigative power we had.

[Something_Smart]

What were your roles/factional powers?

[Something_Smart]

The fruit mechanic was fine. You folks shouldn't have traded so dearly for the fruit. I was willing to part with them for much less than you gave.

There was nothing wrong with the fruit mechanic, for sure, aside from the cancerous governor fruit. The game really didn't provide players with much of a means to bargain; some of the bargains were interesting but most weren't.

[Something_Smart]

while I agree the setup is slightly scumsided I think 2 masons + ari + weak hider + strongman doc is a lot of mech town and a reliable way of protecting mech town.

Vig + desp + 2 masons + hider is maybe six mech town in an optimistic scenario, but it's really easy for the scum to figure out the masons, as I said, because the message mechanic and Ali being a doc and knowing the masons encourages the game to devolve into "everyone sheep Ali."

[Something_Smart]

I personally didn't really like the 'trick' of the neighbor fruit even as scum, mostly because I think neighbor pts are already toxic and cancerous so making them even more cancerous is just gross

The neighbor trick was one of the best ones, because it was predictable and didn't harm you unless you let it.

That's the reason the governor trick was awful-- because it didn't require the player to actually try to use it to their advantage. In fact given that Pine could give it out unbargained-for, it was basically a free scum governor (since there's pretty much no reason town would ever want to use a governor).

[Something_Smart]

I feel like the message mechanic is somewhat town sided

Absolutely. If I'd been the town treestump the first thing I'd do would be to set up a code so everyone can (a) claim and (b) communicate results confidentially to me.

That said, it's also degenerate as shit, for the same reason.

[Something_Smart]

The bargains were entirely Pine's prerogative. I was frankly baffled that so many people chose to give away so much when really it was designed to ensure you didn't just ignore Pine, as per his request.

Probably that's because town assumed the fruit would help them make up for the awful faction ratio.

Which was a reasonable assumption, because what's the point of giving Pine a role in the game if that role is actually meaningless?

[Something_Smart]

one of those messages was a trap but its execution was super poor so it was caught out super easily.

Yeah uh ngl

I was really really lost when you were sending me that plan lol.

What exactly were you hoping to accomplish?

[Something_Smart]

Oh yeah this is the post. Alisae sent me this weird convoluted plan that I didn't get at all, and said, "respond with if you have a concern." So I posted:

I will lie, omit, deceive, vex, perplex, mislead, hoodwink, bewitch, con, dupe, bamboozle, and otherwise trick you…but only to your face, where you can see me coming.

I don't understand why you think this will accomplish anything

But you do you, I guess. Personally, I would welcome the challenge.

(Also, you said that to my face. How do I know it's true? )

[Something_Smart]

i like received one message so all this about the messages back and forth is just like some hidden sub game i never heard of.

Oh yeah Alisae kept sending me conspiratorial shit lmao. E tried to get me to claim doc in massclaim and then Maria claimed it and I was like "what do" and then e just went and spilled all the beans.

[Something_Smart]

votes for fast night should stay, i shouldn't have to continuously pm the mod and tell him i want fast night btw.

Yeah you should, because the mod needs proof that everyone could have submitted a night action to avoid spewing anything.

[Something_Smart]

Kats and GIce were strong at forming reads

glances at Katsuki's reads

[Something_Smart]

I apologize for my bad plays, but I really hoped I could shift the tide with my S_S Desperado! It wasn't enough, but it was something and I really hoped it would be the push we needed to get on track!

Ari I'm sorry but you picked the wrong person to conftown

[Something_Smart]

I died reading when I stopped this game

[Something_Smart]

Weren't all of them true except the obviously-false all scum wagon one (because if scum control enough votes to wagon someone on their own, they've already won)?

[Something_Smart]

By the way, the ducky and I would be interested in modding Titus v. Alisae, if you two are still down for that. Let us know the setup and time constraints and we can get started working on it.

The fruit can definitely go, though I do think Alisae should have some way to be able to affect the game besides just trolling people.

I was messing around with the idea of having a single mason; that would make them a lot easier to hide and free up town to have more significant power elsewhere. Obviously we'll abide by whatever Ali and Titus want though.

[Something_Smart]

If there are two scum in a group there certainly is one

Although I guess that fits with this game's theme of "phrasing things vaguely and refusing to clarify."

[Something_Smart]

The other part being that I don't like cop or cop like roles.

...why'd you put a hider in then?

[Something_Smart]

The way I see the setup is, maybe in a vacuum it's balanced, but it's basically tuned for maximum swing (hider + vig own the game if they live long enough, while a JK on hider visiting scum is basically GG) and minimum town agency (aside from hider who's terrified of dying, town only has the desperado for TARGETED conftowning, everything else is just passive). So it's not really fun, and your aversion to cops shouldn't preclude you from adding trackers, followers, voyeurs, vanilla cops, neapolitans, loyal and disloyal roles, or gunsmiths... because these roles actually afford town some way to generate their own information. The one genuine town investigative role couldn't even target people...

[Something_Smart]

Yeah I don't really think the game was scumsided anymore, just several townies were insistent on turning it into a scumsided game.

But like, maybe in some games you don't have to rely on mechanics, but in a 19:6 game? You sure as hell do. And while these mechanics were able to confirm people as town they really took away a lot of town agency and while that might look good on paper it really didn't make for that fun of an experience.

[Something_Smart]

I mean, I've definitely seen a Beloved Princess at least once, possibly a couple times on MS

We played in a Princess Bride game a while back that had one (shocker, it was the princess).

It was also a terribly designed game though so not a point in the role's favor.

[Something_Smart]

What are you talking about RC, we've already established that everything bad that happens ever is Dann's fault.