Minvitational 8 - OVER before 611

[The Fonz]

Vote: Jitsu

for being the only one on the list I've never played with before.

(this will probably turn into an Adelvote as soon as she, y'know, says anything).

[The Fonz]

Find out next week, same bat-time, same bat channel!

And the inevitable

unvote, vote: Adel

[The Fonz]

Also, note that lines one and two appear to have a similar theme, whilst it is actually the middle line which should be different.

[The Fonz]

Considers jumping off bridge.

. But think Cicero would only hold that opinion as scum? You are quite incorrect as shall become apparent at some near or later point in the future.

As I'm sure you know, that isn't the only way things can be scummy.

Other players should be careful of this tendency of Simenon's as the game continues. There's an obvious tendency to stick his finger in the air and say "ah ah ah, I never SAID what can obviously inferred, so you are ASSUMING ha ha ha". This is a device designed to allow slippery wiggle room, the refuge of scum. Don't let him.

Early, weak bandwagons are good for the soul. Just because something doesn't have a great foundation, doesn't make it a joke. (In fact, had the wagon on you not gotten to a reasonable size sans moi, i'd have voted for you, since I had a premonition that you were scum in this game).

As for Oman, since the consensus is that he's making sense, let's be clear about what part makes sense and what doesn't. It is one thing to disagree that something is a town tell. It is quite another to vote me for believing that it is. Oman's itchy trigger finger on that point is what didnt make sense to me.

You have played with Oman before, right?

That's your reason. One of the most important thing one needs to be able to do as scum is make mislynches happen. Scum cant win on imprisonments alone. So one of the most important things to look at when someone is voting someone is "that thing they find scummy, is it really scummy? Or are they just being opportunistic". To me that's pretty basic. And that's what I meant with Oman.

Being opportunistic requires there to be a possibility of the wagon getting to lynch in the current form. Do you believe this, cicero?

There's nothing not right. I didnt do the "tell" on purpose. Feel free to disregard it. But Im letting you know, voting Cicero for saying he's town, is, well...stupid, if you've played with Cicero. Don't want to use that info, how can I stop you.

And yet, voting Oman for being wagony is dumb if you've played with Oman, but still..

And, Simenon, I wasnt "pretending" I was going to vote him. An intercessionary event - Adel's reasonless vote - occurred. I may vote him yet at a time of my choosing. At the moment he's at 3 votes which is enough until the joke votes come off him and there is evidence that all players are engaged.

Fair enough explanation.

As for the misrepresentation bit -

Is there not scum benefit in starting a wagon on someone like this under the premise of a joke?

Well if there is you should vote Simenon.

My problem is that I think "null tell" is just a cop out, here. In either direction the tell is weak.

Fine. Slightly town, as it happens, since scum have slightly more motive to fear looking wagon-y.

[The Fonz]

Oh crap, that was supposed to be the second half of that post. The first is here:

quietly notices Oman's shifting the wagon to cicero

Yes, this is interesting. On the one hand, pointing out Oman being wagony doesn't seem newsworthy. OTOH, I seem to recall that Oman was working to eliminate that from his playstyle. Hey Oman, how's that one going?

More to the point: you must have a fairly low opinion of Oman to believe that he'd be trying to shift a basically baseless wagon.

Unvote, vote: Shaft.ed

I disagree.

This is the sort of logic that drives lurker lynching - "Scum want to fly under the radar". .

AFAIK, the logic that drives lurker lynching is that it's easier to work out connections, etc, from posts than no posts. Therefore, it's in the town's interests to force people to post, using the sanction of lynch if necessary.

[The Fonz]

Decent town players should not act antitown. Therefore, there's far less difference between the two than is generally made out.

[The Fonz]

You get picked because people think you've got game. To gripe at that would be to diss your fans.

[The Fonz]

With the one just ended, I'm currently in nine.

Hoping to be down to four or so within the month, but there's just too many good games I can't say no to.

[The Fonz]

Billy just posted in the large normal I was in with him, which just finished.

[The Fonz]

Decent town players should not act antitown. Therefore, there's far less difference between the two than is generally made out.

Decent scum will also not appear to be acting protown. No?

Don't be silly. Decent scum will act antitown whenever they think they can get away with it, and protown when they can't. Thus accepting the 'it was a mistake' line allows more antitown things to be done.

What this game really needs is for somebody to do something stupid. That usually gets things rolling.

Interesting. You apparently have a clear idea about what "needs" to be done, but you yourself aren't actually prepared to do it? Any reason why?[/quote]

Oh, come on!

[The Fonz]

Guys, a couple of you seem to have made comments in that direction, so why not join me in a shaft.ed wagon?

[The Fonz]

The Fonz and Simenon may recall this playstyle from Basically Communist Mafia.

The only thing i remember was you getting me lynched for opposing a massclaim that was actually against the interests of the town.

. The Fonz probably remembers how I posted in Treestump mafia.

Like scum?

[The Fonz]

OK so the consensus seems to be that Adel hasn't played this conservative before. I don't know what that means, but it obviously has my attention.

I also agree Shanba, Jitsu, Billy and Erg0 are not contributing enough.

Holy crap, can we please lynch him already?

[The Fonz]

OK so the consensus seems to be that Adel hasn't played this conservative before. I don't know what that means, but it obviously has my attention.

I also agree Shanba, Jitsu, Billy and Erg0 are not contributing enough.

Holy crap, can we please lynch him already?

So it doesn't bother you when a player's style changes 180 degrees from their norm?

It bothers me that you're pointing it out, making it appear significant, but not taking a position on it. It bothers me that you're just echoing other people's calling out of lurkers, especially when you yourself are guilty of egregious lurking in plain sight.

[The Fonz]

I didn't see any

openings

in his answer to

exploit

further .

Excuse me?

unvote vote: Jitsu

Unvote
Vote shaft.ed

Utterly opportunistic. This has to be a deliberate attempt to take that out of context, since I don't see how a townie who read the full post of Jitsu's couldn't understand his intention. Furthermore, he bolds some words in an attempt to distract from the larger picture.

I agree with Adel that vollkan looks likes he's trying to set up the Jitsu lynch. However, I'm not sure he would be if shaft.ed isn't scum, so I prefer this wagon.

Yay!

Fwiw, I don't think it's uncommon for Adel to play like this on day one. I certainly haven't ever seen her feel the need to press some huge gambit straight out the gate. At least, not when she's town.

[The Fonz]

Who's lurking in plain site again?

That would be you.

[The Fonz]

Meanwhile, The Fonz, Oman, BT, and Erg0 are slipping through without posting content. Among other thins, I am really interested in if they are more willing to vote for me or ckd, vollkan or Jitsu.

You over CKD.

No real opinion on Vollkan/Jitsu.

Your turn. Me or shaft.ed?

[The Fonz]

@Fonz - you picked Adel over CKD. What do you think of the argument that BillyTwilight makes (and Adel does too) that Adel is scumhunting harder than CKD and therefore CKD is more likely scum and Adel more likely town?

Baseless assertion. 'Seems like they are scumhunting' doesn't really seem to me to mean any more than 'seems town.' It's not any kind of evidence. If he cared to explain why Adel's 'scumhunting' seems more genuine than CKD's, then it might be more likely to move me.

My suspicion of Adel centres more on the fact that it strikes me that she fairly obviously changed the way she was playing after being attacked for being 'conservative' to a manner that appears closer to the stereotype-Adel.

Meanwhile, The Fonz, Oman, BT, and Erg0 are slipping through without posting content. Among other thins, I am really interested in if they are more willing to vote for me or ckd, vollkan or Jitsu.
?

I'd really like to know how I'm 'not providing content.' I think it's fairly obvious where I stand, and why.

The Oman issue is overblown.

QFT. I've seen nothing in Oman that appears more scummy than average Oman.

Who me?

The default lynch? That'd be pretty lame, as I don't think I've really done anything scummy and don't understand why I still have votes on me.

People who scumhunt aggressively don't tend to be default lynches, fyi.

mod: please prod The Fonz and Erg0, and Shanba if he needs it by the time you check this.

Quoted to point out how much i hate having prod requests made of me whilst V/LA.

For day 1 I'm usually happy if I feel that a person is more than 40% likely to be scum.

I'd agree with that. If town could lynch with a 40% probability every time, it'd likely win the vast majority, and 40% is low enough level that enough people can actually be found who're that sure.

Unvote. Vote Fonz

This puzzles me. What could possibly have changed between your post on friday morning, and this vote on friday night? If you felt it was worth voting me before I answered your question, you could have done it in the morning post; if you wanted to wait for me to answer, then given that I had no access until monday (and, in fact, into tuesday, since the net was down when i got home, though obviously you weren't to know this) then voting me friday night doesn't make sense either.

Also, trying to start a new wagon, on a V/LA player, without giving any kind of explanation that might cause people to join you, with deadline less than a week away, seems to be a perfect example of 'throwing your vote away.'

New thoughts:

I get a bad feeling off Vollkan. His massive PBPs of players include far too much information that is semi-relevant at best, and I get the feeling of trying to blind people with linguistic dreadnaughts- that is, his posts contain so much data that it is hard to pick out what is important, and therefore his contributions end up clouding the issue, rather than clarifying it (And, as some of you will recall, I tend to think of LOATP as antitown in general).

Shaft.ed remains my PE no1. I will re-iterate why shortly.

The following, to me, are acceptable compromise lynches:


Adel, BT, cicero, vollkan.

I won't be convinced to swing to another. It does appear to be the case that between you, you've managed to run up a combination of my least suspected players as the 'viable' wagons- frankly, this is tough shit, since I believe my position on wagons that i see as woefully suboptimal is clear.

[The Fonz]

The Fonz

Before the Re-read

Haven't really played with this guy since my first game ever. I don't know where he sits at the moment, haven't payed a lot of attention to him.

During the Re-read

Even at post 107 Fonz has not really contributed much to either side of any wagons. He sits the fence a lot (is this normal for him?)
Post 142: "Guys, a couple of you seem to have made comments in that direction, so why not join me in a shaft.ed wagon?" No-one really did, I don't know what he's talking about.
Accuses shaft.ed of lurking in plain sight..which is what he's been doing.

Saying that I sit on the fence a lot is palpable nonsense. It has been entirely clear all day who my top suspect was.

And you'd have to be a complete moron, or not understand the term at all, to accuse ME of lurking in plain sight.

Lurking in plain sight is when you do post, but your posts do little to move the game on, or display a lack of independent thought.

I've been hardcore wagonning shaft.ed all day. It isn't my fault that the rest of you seem to be completely ignoring it.

Shaft.ed makes lots of posts, which strike me as being made to 'sound reasonable' rather than 'catch scum.'

Votes Oman based on something Vollkan said.

Asks Simenon a (rather leading) question, but doesn't follow through on it...

As for 'what was scummy' about accusing Oman of trying to shift a wagon:

1) Oman doesn't need any excuse to bandwagon and 2) The bandwagon on Oman was pretty much baseless. Therefore, to accuse Oman of 'trying to shift' the wagon felt to me a bit off- he had no reason to try to shift it there, and it isn't like he's a newb panicking because he has a couple votes on him.

I know Erg0 can be quiet early game, are Shanba and Billy generally like this?

Floating possibilities, seeing if anyone bites...

OK so the consensus seems to be that Adel hasn't played this conservative before. I don't know what that means, but it obviously has my attention.

I also agree Shanba, Jitsu, Billy and Erg0 are not contributing enough.

"Here's an observation, which I'm not going to do anything with.

Also, what everyone else says."

I mean, who CARES what the 'consensus' is?

Shaft.ed's 64 is odd. First he takes a parting shot at Oman for shifting the wagon to Cicero. Um, right, Oman did have three votes on him and Cicero only two at the end of page one, but you're really upset at Oman trying to "derail" a page 1 joke wagon by voting for Cicero? (This comes up later in 92 and other posts.)

The comment towards Oman about the bandwagon was primarily to gauge his reaction to it. If he had reacted overly defensive or incredibly longwinded about it I would have been worried. His reply was pretty much what I expected.

The result he expected apparently told him nothing.

He then asks me if a player's style deviating 180 from their norm is worrying- I deny the premise, since I didn't believe Adel's style was completely at odds with how she normally plays: also, it was not the act of voting Adel, but the appeal to consensus that i found scummy.

Jitsu, I have a very bad record of picking scum on Day 1. I think basing my lines of suspicion on day 1 primarily on existing metas works more effectively for me than trying to pull out minute scumtells from the low information environment of D1. From the games I've played with her Adel has a more reserved feel as scum than as town, but this is so glaringly obvious I don't know what to make of it.

Has Adel done anything so far in this game that has triggered your scumdar?

If she had I'd have voted her.

So, he's been talking all this time about the differences in Adel's playstyle, AND HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY THINK IT SCUMMY? I mean, really, what's the point of going on about something if you haven't decided whether or not it's a good lead or not? Again, kinda looks to me like he's pointing stuff out, and hoping that someone else will start a wagon on the basis of it.

I think my point about Adel playing conservative is being blown up a bit. I said pretty much all it that it's worth right here:

From the games I've played with her Adel has a more reserved feel as scum than as town, but this is so glaringly obvious I don't know what to make of it.

And I was asking other's opinions because 1) I would like people on record as I feel it is a point of interest to the game and 2) I want to see if I'm over-interperating her play.

How could it possibly be overinterpreting if you're not actually reading anything into it?

Then votes CKD, 'Person C' behind Jitsu.

Noted, you felt Oman was scummy, and his quick vote (following Sime) for little reason makes him less scummy then my cautious unvote.

I've never once accused Oman of being scummy in this game. And your unvote was overly cautious thus suspicious.

And he left his vote on Oman how long, exactly?

If felt like you were trying to avoid a wagon on him.

in a sense I was, but at the same time not (psuedo vote). But lets say I was for an instance...that means I am likely scum in your book?

Why would you want to avoid a wagon on him if you remain suspicous of his play? It seems possible that scum would unovte like that to avoid a wagon on there buddy. Thus it seemed possible you put the vote on him as a form of distancing but didn't like the prospect of him encountering a sizable wagon out of the blue on his return. But I do realize that this situation requires both you and Shanba to be scum which is a lot of assumptions to be making at this point.

Hedges...

I didn't see any

openings

in his answer to

exploit

further .

Excuse me?

unvote vote: Jitsu

Speaks for itself...

I don't like how easily he drops his CKD vote.


i disagree with his argument about Adel, he claims, bizarrely, that that post constitutes lurking in plain sight. (If discussion of whether or not Adel is playing differently is LIPS, then how do you explain the many posts you expended on the topic?

I'm thinking on this one. I don't see scum Adel pushing so hard for a wagon that consists of her and her alone. While I know that's BS WIFOM logic, it's certainly an odd thing for scum to do.

At the same time CKD's behavior as of late has not been fundamentally different from his usual town play when in heated debate though Adel is making a case for this. And while I obviously did find his unvote to be off, it's also strange Adel makes such a strong case of it now when she didn't chime in as it was going on.

Hedges...

Then there's kind of a ton more, where I get the overriding feeling that the purpose of shaft.ed's posting is to be seen posting, rather than to force a resolution.

Oh, and backing off the 'lurker' accusations then falling back on 'well i don't like the early play' is simply delayed OMGUS. You didn't think it worthy of attack at the time, even when your vote was on someone you

never once accused of being scummy

. So to suggest, now, that you find what I did near the start scummy is...well, scummy.

Essentially, his play this whole game has struck me as rather consensual, trying-to-seem-reasonable kinda game plan, rather than one which is actually focussed on finding stuff out.

[The Fonz]

Votes Oman based on something Vollkan said.

What are you talking about this page 1 comment? Yes I'm quite obviously just following vollkan's logical coattails

Logical? Not so much. Coattails? Yup. Obviously being page one, it's not THAT significant: that does not mean entirely unworthy of comment.

Is that an Aussie thing?

No. I was under the impression that the desire to get rid of Oman was universal

Asks Simenon a (rather leading) question, but doesn't follow through on it...

You mean this on page 2, are you serious? Do you not understand random comical banter?

Didn't seem comical to me.

Vote: curiouskarmadog

.

A good OMGUS to get me started in the morning.

This is not a vote for cicero.

Why do you only point out Billy's vote? Do you secretly wish you could vote for Oman?

1) Oman doesn't need any excuse to bandwagon and 2) The bandwagon on Oman was pretty much baseless. Therefore, to accuse Oman of 'trying to shift' the wagon felt to me a bit off- he had no reason to try to shift it there, and it isn't like he's a newb panicking because he has a couple votes on him.

I've explained this to death. I don't know why it's being taken so seriously. It was a half joking comment that was checking for Oman's reaction.

I don't like how everything's supposedly a joke. You were wagonning Oman; the wagon was of a significant size. You said something that I didn't think made much sense.

I know Erg0 can be quiet early game, are Shanba and Billy generally like this?

Floating possibilities, seeing if anyone bites...

Or perhaps getting meta advice from the rest of the town?

But more likely what I said.

The comment towards Oman about the bandwagon was primarily to gauge his reaction to it. If he had reacted overly defensive or incredibly longwinded about it I would have been worried. His reply was pretty much what I expected.

The result he expected apparently told him nothing.

Actually they didn't. The way he responded told me he was either scum paying attention or town.

So, it told you that he was either scum or town? How is that not 'nothing?' I mean, sure, if he'd made a reply that is out of character for Oman, that would have been noteworthy- but then that's true of any response to anything.

Then votes CKD, 'Person C' behind Jitsu.

Yes I made absolutely no points against CKD of my own.[/quote]

You're correct, you didn't. You went, 'I agree with Jitsu, vote CKD.'

I've never once accused Oman of being scummy in this game. And your unvote was overly cautious thus suspicious.

And he left his vote on Oman how long, exactly?

When was Oman in danger of being lynched again? How did it matter?

He was the leading wagon for a long time. Also, it's fairly obvious that if you're leaving your vote on someone you don't think is scum, it's not achieving anything. Which perfectly fits the LIPS-rather-than-actual-scumhunting hypothesis.

Hedges...

If you're calling my quotes out for "hedging" you've got about 6 other people that should be on your "hedges" list.

Mud on your face defence. Other people doing something doesn't make it not scummy in the context of your play.

I don't like how easily he drops his CKD vote.

I pointed out that logically he'd most likely have to be scum with someone else for his action to be scummy. I also wanted to use my vote to pressure Jitsu. It worked.

You believe points had been made against CKD which hadn't been adequately defended. You kept on voting CKD whilst citing your concerns about Jitsu, but your vote was apparently swung by an incautious phrasing.

Oh, and backing off the 'lurker' accusations then falling back on 'well i don't like the early play' is simply delayed OMGUS. You didn't think it worthy of attack at the time, even when your vote was on someone you

I still think you were lurking in plain site when you accused me of it. See 541.

You're still completely wrong.

So to suggest, now, that you find what I did near the start scummy is...well, scummy.

I find the hypocrisy scummy.

I'm not hypocritical at all. And, again, it's less the OMGUS vote than the timing. If you were suspicious of me for making the argument at the time i made it, why didn't you go after me then?

[The Fonz]

Oh crap, that was supposed to be the second half of the post. The first is here:

Oh, and just to be a bastard: IF shaft.ed's action had been unnecessary, what bearing, if any, would that have for shaft.ed's scumminess?

My answer: None. I think it is a null-tell. At that point in time, there was nothing that shaft.scum could hope to gain by voting CKD, other than to WIFOMishly put his fingers in the pie deliberately.

I'd agree with the null-tell argument; town.ed has plenty of reason to avoid a no-lynch, and scum.ed has just as much to lynch a townie.

shaft.ed remains, however, my number one lynch candidate for the reasons articulated yesterday. I don't feel his attempted rebuttal of my long post was particularly good:

(Then that long response)

Cicero is probably number two, though i strongly prefer the shaft.ed wagon. There's a lot I find trouble with here, that I can't really put my finger on/articulate. As an example, I'm going to return to his appraisal of BT's argument for Adel's townishness: it strikes me odd, from the previous incarnations of town cicero, that he would accept an unsubstantiated 'looks like scumhunting' argument, still less think it very good.

Also, Simenon dying: WIFOM defences are possible, but Cicero is fully aware of the utility of the 'kill the person who suspects you, then call wifom at every opportunity' scum tactic- he's been scum with me before.

[The Fonz]

I've covered this already. I refer to attacking page 1 votes as reaching. You are thus reaching with this attack

Again, just because you've asserted something, doesn't make it true. It's not a big plank of the case- but it fits the hypothesis, therefore it stays.

Didn't seem comical to me.
I've covered this already. I refer to attacking page 1 votes as reaching. You are thus reaching with this attack.

Now we've progressed to page 2. Here I've already stated that it was a half joking post. It was a long shot to test Oman's reaction. I did not expect to get a read out of it and I didn't. But it was worth a try. Why are you so worried about a L-3 wagon in a game full of responsible people?

I'm not- why did you think Oman would be? That's my point.

No it's not more likely what you said. There were plenty of examples of other people asking for metas D1. Oman backed me up on this on your first accusation. Here you're taking a behavior that multiple people have exhibited and claiming its scummy because I did it.

That's untrue.

Last time I checked there were only scum and town alignments at play, that means it was a null tell and thus nothing. And yes that is true of any response to anything. But a) one doesn't get a response if one doesn't make a comment and b) some statements are more likely to elicit a scum response than others. Glad you agree with me on this one.

I ask you how what you found wasn't 'nothing.' You claimed that it wasn't nothing, but now you're admitting it is.

This is a bald faced lie.

I agree with Jitsu's point against CKD...

unvote vote: CKD

You, sir, are the liar.

Again there are a large number of players doing this same thing, you have no problem with it. In addition scumFonz has handed townshaft.ed his hedgey ass in two games now. Both Heroes and Space Monkey mafia I was wishy washy as hell and you took advantage of it in Heroes by making me second guess my intuation.

Again, the mud defence. JUST BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING IT DOESN'T MAKE IT NOT SCUMMY IN THE CONEXT OF YOUR PLAY! I read your contributions, and I find a desire to hide behind other people, attempts to 'get reactions' that were never likely to do anything, and a couple of points which just seem like harping on trivialities. Combine this with the delayed OMGUS, and your actions re Adel/CKD, and it just doesn't look to me that you're honestly scumhunting.

[The Fonz]

I normally do: but direct quoting there would have led to a quote pyramid, so i took the pertinent bits out.

[The Fonz]

I'm not voted shaft.ed yet?

This needs to be remedied.

vote: shaft.ed

[The Fonz]

Finally, a question: Fonz - Can you do an encapsulate a restatement of your reasoning for why Shaft.ed is scum?

Sure. He looked to me like a player who is making a conscious effort to slot into the middle of the pack. He raised the odd point, but didn't go through with it, or cast around for support/consensus before doing things. He reacted to my attacks on him, by making an omgus vote, much later, and also when it wouldn't do any good (avoiding taking sides between town players). I find delayed omgus to be a reliable tell (and he defended it with the traditional omgus defence of 'no, it was because you were making a really bad case on me.' He doesn't spam the thread like Oman, or lurk like Billy- basically, i think it all adds up to trying not to attract too much attention, whilst giving the appearance of contribution.

[The Fonz]

ts.

He doesn't spam the thread like Oman

May be nit-picky but Oman's post count is 77, mine's 112.

You are correct of course: perhaps I should have phrased it 'Oman-style spamming,' ie, a particular type of spamming i associate with Oman, rather than how Oman is actually playing here, which is completely different to his meta.

[The Fonz]

It looks to me like Jitsu has decided he thinks shaft.ed is a good lynch candidate, and has adapted the facts to fit the theory. Suspicious as i think shaft.ed is, I don't see how him knowing/not knowing he hammered actually matters, and I'm not sure i like the evolution of Jitsu's argument there.

[The Fonz]

No, I actually think your vote for me was scummy.

[The Fonz]

Would everyone be willing to share top 3's at this point?

[The Fonz]

Mine would be

1. Shaft.ed
2. Jitsu
3. BT

[The Fonz]

Whoa, what? I've NEVER said that I want to lynch a vig. You again are completely ignoring the SK possibility here. I find that the best way to win a game of mafia is to identify and catalogue everyone in the game as much as possible. The fewer wildcards you have the harder it is for scum to hide. I saw a piece of relevant information that might point out a potentially anti-town faction, or at least help us clarify who and what wrt the players involved. Jitsu, if there is an SK and he/she is one of the players I mentioned above, would you not agree that it's very important that I point that out?

Jitsu's clearly reaching here, but also, that list you made only makes sense for town vigs; SKs aren't any more likely to take out people they've expressed suspicion of (except in so far as they might want to claim vig). So, unless someone was terrified of the might of Adel's omgus, then it doesn't actually help narrow down sk possibilities. AT ALL.

I also don't like how you've insinuated here that I am attacking you to distance myself from my Shaft.ed debacle. If you look back and reread the thread, you'll see that I attacked you in 696, well before things started going bad with my attack on Shaft.ed.

Post 696 is is EQUIVOCALLY NOT an attack against me, and that you are trying to spin it as such is telling. [/quote]

Actually, I read it as one. So, uh, yeah.

The tone, the content, all point to you reprimanding me for what you think is bad play. There is NO HINT in that post that you find me scummy because of my play.

Scolding you for doing something anti-town... yeah, that's an attack.

BT does make a good point though: Jitsu, 'may not have realised-gate' aside, what do you think of shaft.ed's play?

[The Fonz]

Whoa, what? I've NEVER said that I want to lynch a vig. You again are completely ignoring the SK possibility here. I find that the best way to win a game of mafia is to identify and catalogue everyone in the game as much as possible. The fewer wildcards you have the harder it is for scum to hide. I saw a piece of relevant information that might point out a potentially anti-town faction, or at least help us clarify who and what wrt the players involved. Jitsu, if there is an SK and he/she is one of the players I mentioned above, would you not agree that it's very important that I point that out?

Jitsu's clearly reaching here, but also, that list you made only makes sense for town vigs; SKs aren't any more likely to take out people they've expressed suspicion of (except in so far as they might want to claim vig). So, unless someone was terrified of the might of Adel's omgus, then it doesn't actually help narrow down sk possibilities. AT ALL.

I disagree. I think a lot of players playing as a SK would try to kill mafia in the early game, as more often than not town is lynched. A SK has to keep the numbers even. Furthermore, a SK in the day phase needs to look like a good townie, which means good scumhunting. I don't think it beyond reason to believe that a SK might actually point out who they really think are mafia in the day phase, and then might actually kill a person they really think are mafia in the night phase. It would take a lot of self control for an SK to feel that a player is mafia in the day phase, completely ignore their play, and then kill them at night, all at the same time managing to maintain a good day-image. The main point I was trying to make was that if we have a Vig claim down the line I am more likely to believe it from someone inside the group of players I mentioned and less likely to believe from outside that group, for the very reasons above. A SK could be trying to be crafty to keep his/her distance away from his'her nightkills; I think a Vig would be more likely to kill someone that they had expressed much suspicion of throughout the day.

Yes, but an SK in the day phase has also got to avoid appearing too big a threat to scum, so as not to get crosskilled.

Your last two sentences just read like you're agreeing with me, actually. But seriously: why would a town player NEED to give a list of people he would believe a vig claim from? That can only help the scum.

I also don't like how you've insinuated here that I am attacking you to distance myself from my Shaft.ed debacle. If you look back and reread the thread, you'll see that I attacked you in 696, well before things started going bad with my attack on Shaft.ed.

[quote[Post 696 is is EQUIVOCALLY NOT an attack against me, and that you are trying to spin it as such is telling.

Actually, I read it as one. So, uh, yeah.

Clarify what you consider an attack.[/quote]

Any post where a player casts doubts or aspersions over another's behaviour. To keep this post short, i've omitted the end of the quote, but the answer to that is the same: Jitsu does not need to append 'AND-I-THINK-THIS-MIGHT-MAKE-HIM-SCUM' to the end of each of his statements, elementary-school like, for it to be an attack.

[The Fonz]

?) The Fonz : Accuses Shaft.ed of Lurking in Plain Sight. Not sure I agree with this. Would rather lynch Adel than CKD, but gives no reason as to why. Later states it's because she changed her playstyle after being attacked for being too conservative. Attacks Cicero for voting him before he answers his question and before he comes back, and for voting him for being V/LA. Bad feeling from Vollkan due to bulky PBPA's. Shaft.ed remains his #1 at the end of day one, but he is willing to lynch Vollkan, BT, Adel, or Cicero in exchange. I'm not finding a whole lot that sheds light on this guy one way or another. His Day One posting was very sporadic. Again, very strongly disagree with his belief that Vollkan's big monstrous posts indicate he may be scum - so not sure why he would be willing to default lynch him over someone else on that alone(unless I missed something).

Just one thing- I don't think, and have never said, vollkan's big posts indicate he might be scum. I said I dislike them, and feel they can be used to obfuscate the issue sometimes. I'm fully aware that it's his playstyle- however, I feel if town, it is beneficial to be more concise, and I find LOATP antitown in general. So I don't find vollkan any scummier than his meta in general, which I am inclined towards distrusting. However, we had far better options yesterday than the policy lynch (not to mention, I'm in a minority in disliking vollkan's style, so it wouldn't have worked anyhow).

[The Fonz]

Vollkan, BT, care to vote or give reason not to do so? We're five days from deadline.

[The Fonz]

You looked like you were trying to blend in. You made a delayed omgus vote, at deadline when it was clearly going to do little good. Yeah, that's a fine case.

[The Fonz]

Translation: Hi, i'm scum with shaft.ed, and I desperately want Fonz to back off so that Jitsu, and not my buddy, gets lynched.

[The Fonz]

Shooting for the middle of the pack. Surprisingly reliable, though damn hard to express.

[The Fonz]

if people had listened to the shaft.ed case, there wouldn't have BEEN a CKD situation...

[The Fonz]

Shooting for the middle of the pack. Surprisingly reliable, though damn hard to express.

I've already shot this idea down by the metric you proposed (post counts). Would you care to

I did not suggest post counts as a metric by which to judge your middlingness; that's simply dishonest. You may recall me harping on at you from the very beginning for your cautious, consensual style, your asking of other people to provide cases for you; nothing you have done since has done anything to sway me. (Delayed omgus is also fairly reliable, btw).

My case isn't weak at all, you're scum, and you're going to die.

[The Fonz]

Fonz:

106) States that if cicero's wagon had gotten sizeable he would have voted into it since he had a premonition cicero was scum. Four votes on page 4 seems rather sizeable.

What was the premonition btw

?

I actually had a dream that Cicero was scum in this game...

Fonz do you have any recently completed smaller games as scum I could read?

Here are all the minis i've ever played as scum:

Mini 441 Flavourless http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5295
Ultimatum Mafia http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5471
Basically Communist Mafia http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6150
Heroes Smalltown http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6902
Open 42- Friends and Enemies http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6027 (THough here, i replaced an obvscum, and all i had to do was not give my partner away).

[The Fonz]

Actually, Cic, of your suspects, i think the best case in on Vollkan. You're right... uncharacteristically little scumhunting there.

[The Fonz]

I actually find shaft.ed's sudden turn on me as soon as the possibility of a vollkan lynch was suggested pretty scummy, so I think that's going to be my final answer.

[The Fonz]

Say what you like. You did exactly what i'd expect you to do there, if you' were scum.

[The Fonz]

Hmmm.

That's actually true. (Though largely because townies i go after as scum tend to die).

[The Fonz]

Actually,

unvote, vote: Vollkan

Because shaft.ed could not have found that without some serious meta-ing. I was kinda suspicious he was using 'i have meta' as an excuse to explain a sudden u-turn that couldn't be explained in thread. Putting that legwork in is a town tell, imho.

[The Fonz]

I kinda wonder what drives Vollkan to make a big post attacking Billy, and in the same post vote Jitsu.

[The Fonz]

I kinda wonder what caused The Fonz to drop his second and third suspects from a few pages back and vote for vollkan instead.

Also, that shaft.ed unvote was weak - putting in legwork may be a town-tell, but does something so meta outweigh your supposedly solid case against him based on his play?

It wasn't weak. Putting in legwork like that indicates a genuine attempt to ascertain another player's alignment, which is a significant town tell. How does something being 'so meta' affect anything?

As for the 'other two' suspects, well, one, Cicero's posts indicated to me that I might have been allowing Vollkan to slide beneath my radar. Secondly, the BT suspicion was largely based on lurking- and BT has been far more active since then. Jitsu is currently my no2, and if Vollkan claims power, that will be alternative no1.

[The Fonz]

I also agree with Jitsu in relation to BT's weird vig point. One question, Jitsu, the reasons you have for your BT vote are somewhat unclear in weighting. Is the allegation that you were distancing from a shafted wagon the main factor for you?

No. I admit it is a small part of the reason, but hardly the main factor.

The main factor is that he professed support for a horrendous strategy that has almost no benefit for the town and a lot of potential benefit for the scum, and even after that fact was pointed out to him, he did not back down from his opinion.

People tend to be quite stubborn about game theory.

[The Fonz]

Right, how to resolve the impasse.

I think either of the following two will work:

1. Kison and I flip a coin, and whoever loses switches.
2. Everyone agrees to lynch BT instead if he doesn't show up to break the deadlock.

[The Fonz]

Vollkan, claim.

[The Fonz]

Because i thought we were deadlocked (didn't realise jitsu had not yet voted vk) and i thought it's ridiculous to have two players tied at deadline and him still not voting.

[The Fonz]

20 minutes.

[The Fonz]

Well, we're all here on the offchance he shows up and claims summat good...

[The Fonz]

A guy on a train looks distinctly agitated. He wanders up the length of the carriages, calling out,

I need a Catholic Priest! Is anyone here a Catholic Priest?

When he reaches the end of the train, he curses quietly to himself, and turns round, heading back down the train, shouting

Is anybody here a vicar? Any Anglican Clergy in the house?

But again, he finds his hopes dashed. Back at the start of the train, he thinks for a minute, and heads back up the train, looking really quite anxious, and calling out

'Is there a Rabbi here? I desperately need to find a Rabbi!'

This time, as he's entering the last carriage, a short, bespectacled man speaks up.

'Sir, I'm neither Priest nor Vicar nor Rabbi, but I am a Methodist Minister. Would I be able to assist you in any way?'

'That's no bloody good,' said the man, 'I need a corkscrew.'

[The Fonz]

What, for hounding him incessantly whilst no-one was listening, and then moving off him when he did something I thought was a big town-tell? Mea culpa.

(Incidentally, i TOLD YOU he was shooting for the middle. Looked exactly like Qman in election day).

Also, grow a pair and use your vote why don't you.

[The Fonz]

Anyway my scum list would be: Oman, CKD and the Fonz.

Also,

vote: Oman

One out of three is another surprisingly reliable indicator.

attempt to out a power role at the very least with a fake claim.

I'm not really sure where to go here, but I still find CKD more likely scum than town, and would help lynch him at deadline. I need to read Fonz again considering I missed the VLA, but I'm not seeing much support for his lynch. I don't like Oman, but it's obvious he's not going to be possible today.

Note shaft.ed's Oman related behaviour D2: Votes him, but makes absolutely no effort to convince anyone to join him. Re-read shaft.ed day two. He says 'I'm not happy with Oman's play' quite a few times. Does not really make anything resembling a credible attempt to get him lynched.

Following up with that, is the Fonz still your top suspect? If you really think he's that scummy, why don't you summarize your case against him and cite your evidence. Cicero already asked Fonz to summarize his case on you, so I'd like to hear your side.

He's still at the top of my list. The case is pretty much the same. Constant pushing of a very weak case against me. Painting my actions as scummy when they are common to many players in the game. Lurking, in and out of plain site. Tunneling on me while seemingly ignoring the rest of the players in the game. I'll try getting up a more detailed analysis later, but he doesn't have a lot to work with.

This should ring alarm bells. He's voting Oman at this point, but apparently, I'm his top suspect, and he's dedicating most of his time to attacking me.

OTOH, I think this makes Jitsu and Erg0 likely town. Don't think either one's interactions look like bussing.

(Also, note shaft.ed's attempt to 'lurker' lynch me With help from...)

By the same logic, I'd put Cicero down as the third scum.

[The Fonz]

What, for hounding him incessantly whilst no-one was listening, and then moving off him when he did something I thought was a big town-tell? Mea culpa.

It's more the fact you spent the majority of the game going after him and seemingly dropped the entire thing based on his meta-research of you, alone. Seeing Shaft.ed flip scum godfather makes that look like an opportunity to get out of a bus.

What do you mean 'it's more the fact...'?

What you're saying is the exact same thing i said. Namely, i spent the whole game going after him and dropped it all because of his meta research, which I thought was a big town tell. Scum just don't, generally, put several hours of meta research into finding out someone's alignment, because they already know it.

Plus Cicero drawing our attention to lurkers- and you know where i stand on lurkers, particularly when it's vollkan who is always the arch-opponent of lurker lynches. Getting a lurker lynch on him was sooo tempting. Plus the shaft.ed wagon had completely stalled. It had had me and ergo, and, like, that's it, forever. Spending all that time and effort, and getting no traction whatsoever, makes you doubt yourself. (I have a habit of being wrong whenever there's a question of go with my gut or not lately. Try to suppress natural suspicion of farside, she wins the game for scum. 'Learn' from that mistake, and I vote her in endgame, she's town. Pursue scummy-looking newbies, they're town. Give them some leeway due to their inexperience, they're scum).

@cicero: No no no. FOS = Friend of Scum. We're not at lylo, and there's no reason for a townie not to use his vote. Do you really think scum are going to quicklynch?[/area]

[The Fonz]

Oman: I'll deal with it in the morning. But in short-

NO U.

[The Fonz]

Anyway my scum list would be: Oman, CKD and the Fonz.

Also,

vote: Oman

One out of three is another surprisingly reliable indicator.

That includes yourself Though I agree entirely with this point, that one/three is often scum.

Yes, it does include me. However, I know myself to be innocent, and it would be remiss of me to ignore useful evidence since it might paint me in a bad light.

attempt to out a power role at the very least with a fake claim.

I don't actually remember this?

That's nothing to do with anything. I quoted shaft.ed, and deleted all the bits that weren't relevant, but somehow that one random sentence fragment survived.

Note shaft.ed's Oman related behaviour D2: Votes him, but makes absolutely no effort to convince anyone to join him. Re-read shaft.ed day two. He says 'I'm not happy with Oman's play' quite a few times. Does not really make anything resembling a credible attempt to get him lynched.

This is accurate of several people.

Is it? Really? I think shaft.ed saying

I've never once accused Oman of being scummy in this game.

When he was actually voting you, and justified that vote

specifically

by saying that he was leaving his vote on you because you weren't in danger.

I've never once accused Oman of being scummy in this game. And your unvote was overly cautious thus suspicious.

And he left his vote on Oman how long, exactly?

When was Oman in danger of being lynched again? How did it matter?

This should ring alarm bells. He's voting Oman at this point, but apparently, I'm his top suspect, and he's dedicating most of his time to attacking me.

That actually rings bells the other way. He was "attacking" you (lets be fair, neither of you was pulling a huge crowd to the battle) and focusing on you, but was reluctant to shift a vote your way.

I think it rings alarm bells the way I said it did: he was devoting his time and energy to attacking me, but left his vote on you (possible fear of being seen to omgus?)

reaching against [shaft.ed], casting suspicions that are hardly scummy and apply to almost half the players here, and being hypocritical.

unvote vote: The Fonz

And, as noted, he also specifically denied thinking you were scummy. I'd invite all non-me and Oman players to look over the interactions of shaft.ed with both me and Oman, and tell me which you think look more like genuine attacks and which look more like bussing. I believe it's obvious, but then, I'm hardly an impartial observer. In particular, notice his big attack on me at the beginning of day two.

(Also, note shaft.ed's attempt to 'lurker' lynch me With help from...)

Pretty lame if that was his best attempt.

Basically these tells are not specific to me, and many of them can be flipped to you, which is more ironic than anything.

No. This is flat out untrue. There is a pattern of shaft.ed interaction toward Oman that simply isn't true of anyone else. After he votes you on day two, he then completely ignores you for quite a while. Then he comes out with:

My top 3 has been stated already. I stand by them.

I'm really unhappy with the way Oman has been playing as of late. Is it really that hard to type out three names? And why are you still standing by your completely deconstructed cicero "case"?

This reads to me as a shot across a scumbuddy's bows. There's no, 'look, further evidence of Oman-scum' here, even though he apparently dislikes this, and already thought you scummy enough to vote. He keeps making one-off, throwaway comments like this:

I don't like how Oman continues to coast.

And not following them up with anything.

Contrast with has actually attempting to make a case on me.

Also note that this is basically the same defence shaft.ed gave when i accused him of bethedging- he said that the same could be said of half the game.

[The Fonz]

Fonz, a few things come up here.

One was similar to Shaft.ed not saying that I'm scummy but voting me is the way that Simeon did that to Cicero at the beginning of the game.

Who's Simeon?

The second is why, when you were so suspicious of shaft.ed, did you not bring all this up earlier (unless I missed it)

Because, surprisingly enough, I was trying to work out IF he was scum, not who his buddies were. Case of priorities- find scum, then look for pairings.

[The Fonz]

^-^

This. Basically, Jitsu's 'maybe he didn't know he was hammering' thing, and shaft.ed's 'slip' thing, looked like genuine, bad-faith scummy attempts to get one another lynched based on crappy cases.

[The Fonz]

Basically, Jitsu's 'maybe he didn't know he was hammering' thing, and shaft.ed's 'slip' thing, looked like genuine, bad-faith scummy attempts to get one another lynched based on crappy cases.

Interesting - what's your alternative explanation for Jitsu's case against shaft.ed?

Eh? I don't need one? The theory above implies that one was scum, but not both. I tend to find, and this is another that's fairly constant, scum do not actually try to get one another lynched with shitty cases. They either make shitty cases that don't succeed in putting the buddy anywhere near the firing line, or make decent cases that put their buddies in danger.

Since shaft.ed's attacks were part of a pattern amongst several players that put Jitsu in real danger, i surmise that Jitsu is not his scumbuddy.

[The Fonz]

Please tell me that I didn't just see the "reverse congratulating the doc" tell.

What are you talking about? I didn't congratulate anyone, and I specifically did not mention a doc. I was happy because there was a dramatic turnaround last night that may have revived our chances of winning this game after a horrendous D1/N1. What's wrong with that?

Basically, stating how happy you are at night actions benefitting the town can be a scumtell. The idea is that you're trying too hard to make it look like you're part of the town. The reverse also happens, moaning about how bad night actions were. So things like:

No NK last night...great job, doc!
Wow, didn't that work out well for us!
Fantastic, a scum died!
Aw crap, two power roles dead, that sucks.

Personally, I think it's a pile of crap, and any validity it might have only applies, I think, to new players to the site who are unaware of the JEEP tells.

[The Fonz]

Personally, I make a point of occasionally congratulating the doc as town.

And, yes, Jitsu's 'may not have known' point was crappy. But townies do make crappy cases sometimes, for whatever reason.

[The Fonz]

Busy today, expect me to post something good this weekend.

[The Fonz]

I understand now, thank you. I assume that the JEEP tells are tells documented by the user of the same name that helps administer this site? Are these tells written down anywhere?

Here.

Fonz, how much have you played with Shaft.ed before this game?

A fair bit. I'd seen him as town at least twice, there may be more although I don't recall offhand.

In other news, Cicero is looking yet worse. Don't get me wrong, he and Oman are my top two, but my levels of certainty are getting fairly close.

[The Fonz]

I think its a nice thought actually. By saying CKD and shanba rely on eachother being scum, then pushing for CKD, dead CKD allows him to drop shanbascum as a case.

I can see what you're getting at here. I've done that as scum before. Works in two ways- if you get the townie lynched, it allows you to drop your suspicion- if your buddy dies, you can pursue the town lynch without looking scummy.

I will vote either Erg0 or Cicero at deadline. There's a lot of gut here, but Cicero feels insincere.

[The Fonz]

That is not why I think you insincere. And also, what part of 'gut' do you not understand? My gut said shaft.ed. My gut says cicero, too.

[The Fonz]

Well, I'm currently voting Oman, and I've set out why. My gut is basically neutral on him (though it is to be noted that I more often get a firm town than firm scum feeling on him, just because normal Oman is so scummy).

I don't stand anywhere on the others. I have no interests in lynching them today.

[The Fonz]

No, I don't suspect Erg0 much at all. I'm very much not willing to move to Erg0, as I said it's Oman or cicero for me at deadline.

[The Fonz]

Oops. Yes, I meant to write 'Oman or Cicero.'

[The Fonz]

Worse, obviously. And slightly better about Oman.

[The Fonz]

unvote, vote...er, crap... Vote: Kison.

[The Fonz]

Fonz: how does the scum strategy you mentioned in 961 affect the way you feel about Kison?

Worse, obviously. And slightly better about Oman.

[The Fonz]

We have seven alive, and two mafia. Two claimed power roles, and one claimed innocent. Two of jitsu, Kison, BT, and Erg0 are scum. Plus we can pretty much assume some kind of protector (no RB claim, and no scum kill last night). Nightkills should add more light.

[The Fonz]

Thought: we should definitely direct Oman, so that he and Cicero don't target the same player.

[The Fonz]

Counterthought:

It doesn't matter to whom a player is directed if he's roleblocked. And if he is, you aren't.

[The Fonz]

It's possible the scumkill was dashed against an NK-immune SK. Though my problem with that is your claimed wording, Cic- that implies that an SK would be undetectable by the cop, and cop-immune and nk-immune should never never apply to the same SK.

[The Fonz]

cop-immune and nk-immune should never never apply to the same SK.

This doesn't match with my experience.[/quote]

Oh, I've been in games where it's happened. But it's terrible modding, because it basically means that if the SK is investigated, then the scum can't win- they can't nightkill him, and they can't get a guy with an innocent on him lynched so long as there are goons alive.

[The Fonz]

Ehh, my replies specifically say "Not Mafia" instead of innocent. So I think everyone could still be lynchable with evidence of an SK. I wouldn't be so quick to call Guardian a terrible mod in this case if it turns out true.

One piece of terrible modding does not a terrible mod make. The last time I experienced it, Simenon was modding. Of course, the SK can possibly get himself lynched through extreme stupidity. But, meh. It strikes me that only a handful of mods actuallly realise this- most mods think of balance from a 'possibility of town win' standpoint.

I'm trying to work out whether we can risk leaving Oman alive.

[The Fonz]

Billy- No. I will not. I do not see any benefit in me claiming unless and until Cicero is shown to be a liar.

Erg0- if Oman is NK-immune, then there's no PD. The town has to decide which scumgroup wins.

My feeling, is that Oman has to die. If we lynch Oman, then we go to a four-two night, which then leads into a 3-2 endgame: but we know exactly who the scum is, UNLESS cicero is lying. In any case, we do not immediately lose. If we do not lynch Oman, then we risk going to night, both scumgroups killing town, and a 2-1-1 endgame.

[The Fonz]

unvote, vote Oman

In case it goes all grey screen on me later. I'll be turning in within the hour anyway.

[The Fonz]

In fact, I think we need to get claims from all remaining players - Jitsu, Kison, and Fonzy. No more going back and trying to manipulate events/roles to anyone's liking as we approach endgame. My opinion, of course.

I'm a big proponent of not giving scum info they don't need unless absolutely necessary. So, stick it.

[The Fonz]

BT, no offence, but you're acting like a moron.

Quite clearly, if I'm by some stretch of the imagination not town, it's safe enough for me to claim vanilla townie.

Therefore, there is absolutely no possibility, as you put it, of me 'manipulating roles/events' since it would be unnecessary. What kind of antitown faction do you think I could be? We have a vig claim, which means that all kills are accounted for. If you say cult, I will nail you to the wall.

[The Fonz]

BT, no offence, but you're acting like a moron.

Quite clearly, if I'm by some stretch of the imagination not town, it's safe enough for me to claim vanilla townie.

Therefore, there is absolutely no possibility, as you put it, of me 'manipulating roles/events' since it would be unnecessary. What kind of antitown faction do you think I could be? We have a vig claim, which means that all kills are accounted for. If you say cult, I will nail you to the wall.

No, I don't think I'm acting like a moron.

As far as I am concerned there are 2 wildcards left in this game: you and Oman. Yes, the non-mafia kills are Oman's. Does that make you town aligned? No.

Yes, you are acting like a moron. Not claiming in this situation is the BLATANTLY OBVIOUS, RIGHT, PRO-TOWN THING TO DO. Again. If I am not mafia, and not SK, what kind of antitown faction do you think i could be?

We have three lynches to work with, probably. We have 4 players that aren't confirmed as anything. We know that if there is a self-aligned player they have an "above average chance of not being normal"... i.e., they aren't a stereotypical serial killer.

Normal to my mind, in this context, would mean 'would be found within a normal game.' Any kind of ability beyond the usual nk/inv immunity could count here.

I don't see Oman being a serial killer here - if he is then he has a power that we don't know of yet. I don't think a 1 shot night-kill immunity would make him more than a "normal" SK. I don't think he is night kill immune (see the win condition for self-aligned player). The only thing I can see is that he might have the ability to daykill. That I think would qualify as "not being normal".

Dear God, you can stretch semantics a loooooong way. Also, gold medal for missing the point. THE TOWN CAN AUTOLOSE IF IT DOES NOT LYNCH OMAN. IT CANNOT IF WE LYNCH OMAN.

I'm simply trying to understand what in this game is balancing for the town power here. 9 town, 4 vanilla, 5 power roles (assuming you in some way prevented a night kill) seems too much for a 3 person scumgroup to handle.

You're playing OGM, which is antitown. Stop it.

Blah, blah, blah, pointless speculation that has nothing to do with helping the town win.

Throw in Jitsu's inexplicable attack on shaft.ed day 2, my belief that there doesn't seem to be a lot of reason for scum to want to night kill Oman night 2, and your reticence to claim when, if you are town, there are really only about 3 "normal" roles that you could be and everyone can already guess at what they are has me nervous about charging through the rest of the game as though we already have everything figured out.

And your inexplicable insistence I claim when there is NO POSSIBLE BENEFIT makes me want to *headdesk* over and over again.

[The Fonz]

Jitsu needs to role claim.

This.

[The Fonz]

On top of all of this Fonz has played with me as scum before, and should recognize the differences between my play in this game and my scumplay.

One game is not a significant sample,and ive never seen you as town before.

Still guys, this isnt remotely hard.

The town will have 2-5 roles that are not townies.

I myself am vanilla. Therefore, there is zero chance the masons are lying (reluctance to claim ftw) as that would mean only one power role.

vote: Jitsu

[The Fonz]

Vote: Kison

[The Fonz]

He had to have... We tried to kill Oman, suspecting he was the Vigilante, and he did not die. Since there were no protective or roleblocking roles, then I don't see what else could have resulted in that. Everything went wrong with the Oman/Shaft.ed kills.

You knew he was SK. And you got him lynched. Whilst you could have telegraphed the fact a bit less, it was powerroles rather than that which were your downfall.

I'm still really surprised you tried to discredit the masons, and not me and cicero. Cicero claimed cop when next in line to be lynched, and claimed an investigation of a corpse. To my mind, that was a LOT easier to paint in a scummy light than claimed day masons. I know there was only the tiniest sliver of doubt in my mind, and that was completely dispelled by Kison's claim.

If I'd been you, I'd have had Jitsu claim doc, and Kison claim RB with a block of me the night before. That would have muddied the waters more, I think.

I'm just glad we won this one despite my terrible play. Memo to self, never listen to cicero. It seems like every time i've had to make a call on whether to go with my gut or not in the last six months, i've called it the wrong way. In my defence, I really didn't see shaft.ed putting in a meta which looked to me like it would have taken several hours of effort to find out my alignment if he knew it already.

Shaft.ed and Jitsu's bus was really good- I just didn't see scum using such utter craplogic against one another, which made me think them both scummy, but mutually exclusive scum.

[The Fonz]

I thought you did just fine. It might be fair to say that nobody had a "killer" game, but given how ultra-conservative the play was, I think the game was a tough challenge for everyone. To your credit, you were one of the most vocal townies of the group and were one of the least conservative players.

There was a reason for that: I figured someone had to play the JDodge/BabyJesus role here for the game to work. Since I had a strong scum feeling about shaft.ed, it made sense for it to be me. He really did seem to me to be trying to be seen to contribute without sticking his neck out. Incidentally, I can understand why shaft.ed accused me of LIPS (he was scum throwing mud against a wall) but I don't get cicero pushing the same line. My behaviour didn't fit at all with the definition of lurking in plain sight I use.

You helped keep the pressure on Shaft.ed, which eventually paid off. And all of us were kind of shocked when Shaft.ed's "reason" for the turn on you worked so well. He did a great job with that.

Yeah. Like I said, it really didn't seem likely to me that a scum would do that much homework to find out someone's alignment. The big mistake, though, was going to vollkan and not you after that, though the possibility of getting a lurkerlynch on vollkan to teach him a lesson was almost too good to pass up. I couldn't let him, of all people, lurk through.

I'm well aware of your scumhunting reputation, and I intentionally did not try to take you head on. That may have factored into my decision not to claim power on some level.

My scumhunting rep? My scumhunting is pretty poor. (And, ironically enough, the better it gets, the harder I find to articulate my reasons).

[The Fonz]

Haha. No sweat. I believe i stole it from Thok or Yos or someone like that anyway.

[The Fonz]

A quick note here- it just goes to show how valuable it can be, if towns can manage to avoid claiming prematurely. I think a single extra claim in this game could well have swung it hard in the scum's favour.

Btw Adel, having read the peanut gallery, could you elaborate on why you had me as scum after shaft.ed died?

[The Fonz]

Well for me, it was to do with the fact that I'd laid out my case, I was absolutely convinced of it and unwilling to move off of it, but no-one was listenining.