Newbie 626 - Completed Successfully (dependent on town POV)

[neko2086]

vote: mispeled

Spelling error = obv scum

[neko2086]

he was the first one to vote, makes him a likely scum.

I hope you're not serious. If you are, I'd like to know what your logic is behind this.

[neko2086]

The randomizer has spoken.

Did the randomizer inform you that this is the third vote on me?

[neko2086]

OK, because the randomizer is putting me at L-2 on the first page, and I see you're not removing your vote.

unvote; vote: freckles

[neko2086]

My, what a nice OMGUS you've got there.

It's not really omgus if there's reasoning behind it. Seems like an honest enough mistake, though.

Unvote (for now)

"for now," as in you're likely to vote me again?

[neko2086]

@ Neko, the "for now" comment was a joke. (that'll teach me.)

That's fine. I just don't get jokes sometimes... I really wanted to know if the "for now" referred to a vote on me, or a vote in general.

unvote

When it was pointed out that you put Neko at L-2, you posted that you woudl have words with the randomizer, yet did NOT unvote. You said later that you saw an unvote above yours, but this is not true as the only post above your words with randomizer post was Neko telling you that you put her at L-2

This has all been covered already. Your entrance seems strange and forced...

[neko2086]

Sorry. First quote->freckles. Second quote->Grimmy

[neko2086]

My entrance with a reason for my vote was because im usually one of the LAST people to vote seriously. I love the joking phase of the game, but this just stood out too much for me to ignore.

Having a reason isn't the problem. It's that your reasons had already been brought up and found to be inconvincing arguments, though you apparantly still think they are.

New question: Are you more suspicious of Freckles' or Mama's actions?

[neko2086]

if I am a townie then why am I acting like mafia? I don't know
if I am mafia then why am I acting like mafia? I don't know
sure mafia knows who mafia is but why would I be a mafia that is acting like a mafia?

This is all WIFOM. WIFOM discussions go absolutely nowhere

also keep in mind it is a game and I can play the game however I want correct?

It is also a team effort (unless you are a SK, but there isn't one). If you're being intentionally useless, you're not helping your cause.

[neko2086]

Question to all: Who's currently on your scum-dar? More importantly, why?

Are you willing to answer your own question?

[neko2086]

If you're scum, then your cause isn't my cause. I say "your cause" because I don't know what it is. What I

do

know is that you're not helping it (although you appear to be scumhunting now, so, maybe this is changing).

[neko2086]

kang comes off as a lurker

First, the game started Saturday, so it's way too early to be tagging anyone as a lurker. Second, he posted Saturday, Monday, Tuesday, and today. Others have posted less, so I don't know why you'd call him out on this but not others.

it might just be a trick to pick at each othes noses to make it look like they are looking for scum while they really aren't

I partially agree with this. My main concern with his question, however, is that scum will sometimes ask everyone to create scumlists to give them a good idea of who everyone generally suspects and who everyone is generally willing to write off as town. This aids them in selecting lynch targets and nk targets.


I agree with occult's assessment of grimmy and mispeled. Well, Vipza too. We just need to hear more from him.

[neko2086]

who for posting as much as she is, really isn't saying a whole lot.

There are others more guilty of this than her. I would argue that mama's contributed more than mispeled so far.

[neko2086]

i don't like that guy Rolling Eyes
but anyways who likes mudkipz?

I like mudkipz. :> Hi all, sorry I am a bit late. I did see that the thread was unlocked but then I went to check some other sites and forgot to post.

What, Grimmy, are you suggesting these two were trying to accomplish here?

First of all, there is no cult, so there is no recruiting going on. Second, this is on the first page in random voting stage where there is hardly any,

if

any, information to be secretly exchanging in coded message. Third, to confirm the second point, I see absolutely no information, by any possible stretch of my frenetic imagination, being exchanged in these posts.

Conspiracy theory? You are

stretching

for reasons to vote the easiest targets. First freckles, now on your way to mama.

FOS: Grimmy

Now that I look back, I see bmc doing the same thing, just a bit more tactfully.

It doesn't seem logical to me that you would want to purposefully act scummy in the game as it serves no purpose to either side, and if you are playing town, keeping secrets feels like a bad strategy (unless you are a power role?)

Possibly fishing for power roles here.


A very dangerous discussion is brewing, and I want to head it off if possible with this:

Just for reference: It

is

a legitimate town strategy to act slightly scummy to keep yourself alive in certain situations. This requires, however, a very

very

delicate balance and must be done sparingly, or else you'll be an endgame liability (scum will try to use you to win). This should only be done if you feel you are important to the game. An expert-scumhunting vanilla townie who feels they are absolutely sure who the scum are may occasionally do this.

Other vanilla townies are expendable, and should not really care if they survive through the night. In fact, if you are nk'd, great, because you didn't lose a power role. You still win with the town if you die and all the scum are killed. Your win condition does not depend on you staying alive. That said, I imagine mama was either not fully aware of this, or for some selfish reason just wanted to stay in the game as long as possible.

That is all, and this should not be discussed further.

[neko2086]

I would like to see Kang answer his own question as to who is looking guilty. I want to say I'm against scumlists for reasons already stated by neko, but as (ironically) neko just pointed out, vanilla townies are expendable.

I don't know how vanilla townies being expendable makes it ok to give the scum direction.

If you put someone at the top of your list and are night-killed, it could be a tell as to who's who. Of course they could just randomly pick someone. I'm talking myself in circles here.

You're talking yourself in circles because such is the nature of WIFOM. If a scum is writing a scumlist, do they list their partners for distancing sake, or leave them off to keep the focus off them? Do they include both scumbuddies? If only one, in which order would they list them amongst the townies? Clearly this conversation will go nowhere.

[neko2086]

vote: Grimmy

for derailing the conversation.
Also, mispeled thinks you're just blowing things out of proportion. I think you're stretching for votes.

mod:

can we get prods on occult and vipza, perhaps replacing vipza?

[neko2086]

nobody has posted? Discussions

have

been taking place, but you've chosen to give us conspiracy theories and contentless filler-posts. It doesn't get any closer to active lurking than that.

go omgus go

[neko2086]

Goodness. Well at least we finally got some substance from you, and to think all it took to go from a hunch to a full-blown case on me was a vote on you!

(Quick note: I identify as male.)

I don't know what you mean by "leading votes." Are you saying that I'm directing the town? Your examples are of me asking questions, not telling people what to do... Also, what's this about bullying? If anyone feels bullied, please say so.

About ML- as I said, a dangerous conversation was brewing and I wanted to head it off. This

is

a newbie game, and some here may not have been aware of where that conversation was headed. So yes, I am being controlling, but it's for the best interest of the town and you'll have to trust me on this one. If you'd like to challenge me on this point, go ahead and start that conversation up again and see where it goes.


About scumlists and WIFOM- This game

can

be played without entertaining WIFOM discussions. In fact, it has to be. In the scenario I've presented in which a scum has been lynched and left behind a 'top 3 scum suspects' list, please tell me how you plan to discern what that list means, exactly. WIFOM discussions go absolutely nowhere. They lead to tortuous guessing games, and that is

not

productive.

[neko2086]

I can't see a baddie being that long-winded, in my experience, that doesn't happen.

Always happy to be proven wrong,

Please go to the end of this game and read a few of Javert's posts. Excessive lurking is something only bad scum do (debatable, but that's my opinion). At any rate, scum can post just as much and as well as town.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

he is trying to put heat on someone other than himself, which is scummy,

not necessarily. If you are town, you know that your lynch isn't going to help the town. The problem here is the way in which he went about it. It was a blatantly omgus-inspired tirade against the first person to put a serious vote on him. He became overly defensive and quickly drafted a poor case (imo) against me. The townie reaction would have been to defend his posts and start scumhunting.

My vote stays.

[neko2086]

now to the voting.
I will skip the joke voting just this once,

because someone already slipped up and made ashowing of their colors

.

Vote: Freckles

When it was pointed out that you put Neko at L-2, you posted that you woudl have words with the randomizer, yet did NOT unvote. You said later that you saw an unvote above yours, but this is not true as the only post above your words with randomizer post was Neko telling you that you put her at L-2

FOS: Mamaluigi

After everyone telling you that you are coming off as scummy, you continue to do so.

and

im still not convinced that the freckles thing was a mistake.

if you saw an unbolded vote followed by a bolded vote, why would that make you think someone UNvoted? If anything it would make it appear that neko had MORE votes on him/her than you originally thought.

@neko: My entrance with a reason for my vote was because im usually one of the LAST people to vote seriously. I love the joking phase of the game, but this just stood out too much for me to ignore. As for the rest of my joking, I usually put some wisecrack after I sign my posts.

Im wondering if Ma(n)Ma(n)Luigi is

purposely playing scummy in order to hide in plain sight.

Neko, noone has posted a damn thing, but youvote me for derailing the conversation?

Now I have someone to look into.

I had a hunch before, and this just gives me more fuel...

a pbpa

The PBPA came because

I had suspicions of you moreso than anyone else.

(Italics mine for emphasis)

This seems very inconsistent to me because for one, I don't see you suspecting me at all before I voted for you, and you actually

do

appear to have some suspects before. So it seems odd that I became your "main suspect" immediately after I vote you, when your attention was elsewhere beforehand.

[neko2086]

limited/no access until 6/27

[neko2086]

I'm back.

Grimmy, and Neko are pushing buttons and that leaves me wondering a little about what is behind it.

What kind of "buttons" are we pushing? Are they the same buttons?

[neko2086]

Hello?

Just fyi, I'll have limited access for the next couple weeks, but I should be able to post enough to keep up with the game.

Anyway, we've got about 5 RL days left, so, it's crunch-time people, and I haven't seen many cases be presented.

If you don't want to join a bandwagon, now is the time to present a case for an alternative. Everyone should be voting by deadline, and should be voting in a manner that ensures a lynch. We do

not

want a no-lynch.

mod

: can we get a prod on bmmcleod and kang? thanks

[neko2086]

Cool, so I have the most votes with the least explanation.

Seriously, everyone read my case on Grimmy and tell me why, specifically, you're not going to vote for him if that's the route you choose. I've heard a couple vague comments now about it not being enough for a lynch, and I might otherwise agree, but

we are in a deadline!

I don't like the idea of lynching mama solely on being useless when there is another player who has been outright scummy.

Hold on, is the vote count accurate? I thought I voted Grimmy and I thought Grimmy was voting me. Well,

vote: Grimmy

for good measure. One more will ensure a lynch.

[neko2086]

The mod will fix it in due time. Meanwhile, please don't ignore my questions.

mzldr, I have one specifically to you, and a more recent one I'd like everyone to adress.

[neko2086]

I don't think the case against mama is quite as strong.

Where are bmc and kand? Where is occult? They should be the first to be looked into if grimmy turns up scum.

I won't have access again until after deadline, and my vote isn't moving, so please please please do not allow a no-lynch to happen. If it's not grimmy, so be it, but please ensure that a lynch happens.

[neko2086]

ebwop: kang

[neko2086]

Now hopefully we've learned what happens when there isn't enough activity. Of course, D1 doesn't often start w/ a correct lynch, but, it certainly helps if everyone is active. But that's enough of that.

Thanks to the replacements! Looking forward to Amor's input.

New Coldness, do you always make multiple posts like that? Thanks for trying to keep things organized, though. I agree with much of what you've said, but I'm interested to know if you don't have any opinion of bmc, or if you're just waiting for Amor, or what. While he didn't say much, he said a little more than others and certainly something can be drawn from it. Certainly Amor can't tell us why he did such-and-such, but that doesn't mean we should completely forget about him. That said, I think he's definitely worth looking into, and he's caught my attention. I'd say if ml is town, bmc is likely scum.

Speaking of ml, I'm starting to have doubts. He is definitely worthy of getting some pressure today. I’m very anxious to hear from him.

Mispeled needs to formulate some opinions. I notice here:

Vipza is probably gone, but Occult is lurking even more than I am.

that he actually admits to lurking but does not actually contribute anything in that post.

Occult’s steering away from the Grimmy vote almost feels like a scum who knew it was going to be a town-lynch and would be best avoided. He also points fingers at lurkers while not contributing much himself. He is not, however, the only one to have done either of these things (see freckles for the first (initially), mispeled for both)

Freckles--

Kang being nightkilled gives us so little to work with. *shakes fist at scum*

This comes off as very awkward, maybe forced, but I’ve said this before and I do agree with this sentiment, so I wouldn’t say it’s a strong scumtell. It does grab my attention, though. The vote on Grimmy was sudden and rather unexplained, as well, so I’d like to know why you preferred a grimmy-lynch to a ml-lynch, especially when things were so close (see next post)

Mzldr’s one post of substance was pretty wishy-washy all-around. Like mispeled, I’m hoping for some opinions today. Also, he never answered my question—what buttons were grimmy and I pushing, and were they the same? He posted afterwards to ask about vote counts (a filler post) without answering, and didn’t post again before deadline. Final vote count reveals that he did not vote before deadline either (neither did other lurkers, but they may have gone missing by then). One vote would have tied ml and grimmy, and we could have had a swing vote from freckles, or a vote from one of the other non-voters for the lynch. So, mzldr2, please tell us why you also preferred a grimmy-lynch to a ml-lynch. I’d also like an answer to the question about the buttons as well.

That’s a good start for now, I think.

[neko2086]

I don't like him trying to put the blame for the lynch on lurkers though.

Why not? Because you're replacing a lurker? If everyone had been active, do you think things would have worked out the same?

[neko2086]

Sure, I'm partly responsible for it, because I wanted him dead more than anyone else. The case against him was the best under the circumstances, imo.

inactivity doesn't make bad reasons for a lynch suddenly change into good reasons.

So you would say that I had a rather bad case? Please explain why.


Also, seconding NC's request for ML to explain himself.

[neko2086]

Deadline = not good. See day 1 for example.

mod: prod mlzdr2

please. It's been close to a week now.

Feedback on my analyses on the last page would be appreciated.

Mostly waiting to hear from mlzdr and ml, but would also like to hear something concrete from freckles and mispeled

[neko2086]

Amor did it better.

vote: MamaLuigi

. Now is the time to convince us that you are pro-town.


Mispeled, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.

[neko2086]

Thank you, mispeled. Seems to be a pretty proactive response rather than a defensive one. I don't agree with point 1, but it's a good perspective to consider.

mod

: Freckles, and perhaps mamaluigi, needs to be prodded. Also, mzldr may need to be replaced if he's not going to respond to his prod.

[neko2086]

I hope ML picks up his prod so I don't have to abandon my suspicion of the person that I think is the scummiest here.

Me too, but replacements don't get a completely clean slate.


Thanks for replacing, Indigo. Looking forward to your input on the game.

[neko2086]

Makes a declaration to have everyone put forward a suspicion list (is that what scumdars are?).

Sometimes. Most people who refer to their scumdar are talking about gut suspicions. Anyway, it's not always a good idea to ask everyone to list all their suspicions, as it gives the scum a good idea of who to nk. Usually a top 2 or 3 is a better option.

Another thing that motivated my vote on him is that there is no one else to go after, or there is no amount of cutting evidence that proves that they are scum compared to his.

Unfortunately for you, I'd say your predecessor was one of the most suspicious coming out of D1. I'm disappointed he didn't stick around to answer my questions. I have a question for you, though. Are you voting ML primarily because of his D1 behavior or because Kang was nk'd?

[neko2086]

unvote

. I was afraid of that.

I find his claim very believable given ML's actions yesterday. He was obviously either scum trying to wifom us into letting him live, or a power role trying not to get nk'd. My post that ended with "this should not be discussed further" was in response to this, as I was pretty sure bmc (and possibly others) was role-fishing.

Anyway, my suspicions of mispeled are somewhat bolstered, as he has not had a real opinion until now, throwing suspicion on the doc claim.

I also do not buy IH's 'I was only voting ML to generate discussion and get the scum to join me.' Plenty of us felt that ML was pushing the newbie boundary into scum territory, and you were no exception, so this is coming off as quite the backpedal. This, the wifom arguments, and your predecessor's behavior--I'm not at all opposed to an IH-lynch today. I'd like to hear more from everyone first, though.

LAL=lynch all liars, btw. Lying is generally anti-town, but I suppose in the world of MOS it might not be. Fortunately, we don't all live in that world... Anyway, in this case, I highly doubt syz is scum.


syzygy, are you a MOS-alt?

[neko2086]

my opinion is that you are trying to get information from me. which im not going to give.

This was one of ML's first comments, and it was the first thing that made me feel he could be a power-role. What else could he have meant by "information"?

think about it as a game of hide n seek
im going to hide in a place so obvious nobody would check.

This, along with his general style of play, added to the feeling of him being doc, but, like his playstyle, was also just terribly WIFOMy.

I still feel most inclined to believe his claim, but I'm going to read through these recent posts (too tired to do anything but skim them for now, sorry) and consider NC's arguments.

I wish I knew whose alt syz is... but if he's a MOS-follower, I probably wouldn't put it past him to make such a fakeclaim. Anyway, more later.

[neko2086]

Sorry, still randomly skimming this, will read more thoroughly tomorrow, but I have to ask...

I ask the Doc, if he's out there, not to protect Syz.

If syz is not the doc, and if there is a doc, the doc would know syz is fakeclaiming, obviously, so, why on earth would a doc protect a fakeclaimer?

Syz, if you're the Doc or a townie, I really hope that you take this as a lesson and never run this kind of gambit ever again.

Agree heartily with this, especially if he's a vanilla. Newbies, take note--lying is bad mkay? Hopefully this isn't the case, though... Not sure yet.

[neko2086]

OK, yeah, we need a hardclaim from syz. Missed the softclaim part, and that is putting us in a bind. I don't see the scum getting lost in a 'perilous circle of wifom,' so the benefits of this plan are quite a bit lacking considering the situation it puts the town in.

I'd like to know where Freckles and Amor weigh in on this.

[neko2086]

'cause he's the best possible lynch candidate I see right now

What about the points brought up about IH and his predecessor? I don't think we should let the discussion on syz completely dominate the conversation.

Weren't you saying earlier, though, that the two worst scenarios for town involve lynching syz?

[neko2086]

Damn, I really thought it was genuine.

Not completely opposed to adhering to LAL, but I do agree that IH (and I do realize there is another player called IH, but this is just the easiest for me...) needs to be looked into. He did some serious backpedaling that just

can't

be ignored.

[neko2086]

Grimmy was more reactive than proactive, but enough of him.

Any replacement that comes across in my games gets a temporary benefit of the doubt from me.

Which is very generous of you, but unfortunately if scum figure out that the town is giving a clean slate to replacements, they can just replace out whenever the heat is turned up on them. Replacements certainly can't be asked to explain their predecessor's actions, but that doesn't mean we forget about them.

mod

: prod freckles, please. Thanks.

[neko2086]

NC, sorry I wasn't clear, but the backpedal I was referring to was the same as yours, not his vote change. His story completely changed, and it bothers me immensely.

agree with syz on freckles. We can't let anybody slide under the radar just because of all the confusion. That's exactly what scum would like to do.

Also, Freckles, IH and Amor haven't been around much longer than you, so be careful with the newbie card.

[neko2086]

Woah champ. Amor may be interested in meta, which is (debatably, I suppose), acceptable mafia discussion.

So yes, Amor, syz is an alt, and I doubt he's going to tell us whose as that sorta defeats the purpose of having an alt.

[neko2086]

I only said 'be careful with it' because I do realize that it is a newbie game and it is designed to be a learning experience, so I'm not going to jump down a newbie's throat for being a newbie.

Please realize, though, that newbies who end up as scum will often use their newbieness to their advantage, and typically remind everyone that they are a newbie (the newbie card). Townies do it too, but especially scum.

That said, you were saying that you were the only newbie left, which, if true, would certainly allow you a certain amount of leniency not afforded to the others. This isn't the case, so it did appear that you may have been trying to make a special exception for yourself. Maybe not, but that's how it looks.

Anyway, don't doubt yourself, because you're certainly capable of contributing to discussion.

his 2 "IGMEOYs" right after each other. To me, it looks like an attempt to shift attention to anyone other than himself.

This, for example, I agree with, and I hadn't really thought about it that way.


I don't know, yet, whether I believe he was scum pulling some sort of gambit there. I still think he's probably town, but I'm thinking it wouldn't be a bad idea to stick to LAL. We don't need to be rewarding liars by letting them survive, and especially in a newbie game, we shouldn't be making any exceptions. As NC said, LAL exists for a reason. Also, I really don't want him here in lylo as he'll be a major liability.

So,

vote: syzygy

on the basis of LAL. If he's not scum, I'd guess IH for sure, and possibly Freckles.

syz, stay out of newbie games, plz.

[neko2086]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... ight=liars

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=LAL

Already done-- after briefly reading the first link, it's clear that lying may be advantageous at certain times, but only if carefully, carefully prepared and only when necessary. Syz said, 'oh hai MOS has done this so it must be a great idea even tho it's already gotten me lynched in another game.' The advantage was also not going to be that great.

Also, most people who agree that lying is sometimes ok also agree that LAL should still be followed. Thus, if you lie and get away with it and it considerably helps the town, well ok. If the town finds out you're lying... congratulations, you are now a major liability, so, cya.


The second link is the wiki article on LAL.


So the question is, mispeled, if you think syz is town, which you apparently do, who do you think is scum and why? If you think I'm going to lose this game for us, what are you doing to help us win?

I'm confused though, because you wanted to lynch syz when he claimed doc. So now, he's claimed townie and confessed to lying, and... you believe him?

[neko2086]

I only said that his actions were very anti-town.

Ah, you're right. Makes more sense now.

What do you think of Indigo?

[neko2086]

If he was trying to bait scum, then ok, there certainly wouldn't be anything wrong with that post. But look back at his posts and you can clearly see that that is not what he was trying to do. Look at posts 175 and 177. I guess it's possible that he had some sort of master plan, but it looks to me like he was clearly creating a case against ML, even defending his analysis of Kang's posts.

If he was trying to bait scum, he was going through some pretty risky (WIFOM, as you agree, mispeled) territory to do so. If that was his plan all along, he put himself at much more risk than the scum he could possibly have 'baited,' and I'm still not sure how exactly that was supposed to work...

I don't know. I guess those posts are open to interpretation, so I'd like to hear whether others believe his "I was trying to bait scum" bit. Maybe I'm in a minority on this one, but I don't.

[neko2086]

Looking over NC, I'm not sure if there's anything to be made of his being cop. It's unclear whether an investigation was made night 1, as occult was MIA and NC replaced at the start of day2. I'm not sure if I really want to conjecture anything. At any rate, he threw some suspicion toward IH, mispeled, and Freckles, so if he had a town result on someone, it probably wouldn't have been them. I'd like to think I was investigated based on D1 events, but, bmc (amor) or kang could have been investigated as well.

More later. Need to finish rereading.

[neko2086]

Are you trying to tell me that it's my fault he failed to do so?!

Are you trying to straw-man mispeled's argument? He's clearly not blaming you for syz's absence. His point is that you dropped the hammer, which ends

all

discussion, and not all the discussion had to do with syz. Mispeled mentioned the discussion on himself and Freckles, but he forgot to mention the discussion on

you

, which conveniently ended with your hammer.

Trying to make a case, are we?

Why wouldn't he? That's what this game is all about. This doesn't seem like a very pro-town reaction to me. I just don't know why town would say something like this when the game is on the line for them.


Freckles, you there?

[neko2086]

Don't misquote me plz, thx.

First paragraph--fairly valid.

terrible Grimmy lynch happens. Looking back it strikes me how little of a solid basis there was for the case. It seemed to revolve around him being defensive, because only scum defend themselves.

You weren't there, so it's very easy for you to say this. Also, it wasn't just about defensiveness. Did you miss the OMGUS? He didn't have any real opinions until I started suspecting him, then he brings a full-fledged case against me (and a really bad one at that). Please tell me, based on D1, whom you would have proposed to lynch, and what case you would have presented that would have been better than mine.

The tone of your post troubles me a bit, especially when you get to

(perhaps someone whose name rhymes with meko2086?)

It's just a little over the top, but, I'm not going to read into it too much right now.

Anyway, I generally agree with your analysis of Freckles. I'm guessing a IH/Freckles pair atm, but feeling more toward IH than Freckles.

[neko2086]

Where have I misquoted you?

Kang being nightkilled gives us so little to work with. *shakes fist at scum* And all these replacements are so hard to keep up with

The whole Neko Vs Grimmy, and Grimmy being town looks bad for Neko, but it's too obvious, I think, so I don't think Neko is scum.

I remember thinking at one point that MamaLuigi seemed scummy, but now I can't remember exactly why (dammit!) A re-read is definitely in order.

That was Freckles, not me. Minor point, I just wanted to clarify that.

Well, he presented a case behind it so I wouldn't really call it OMGUS.

He only

looked

for a case because I voted for him.

Apparently Amor thinks it's between myself and Neko, and as I know my role, I took a good look at Neko's game.

So, since Amor thinks it's between us, it must be so? I think it's between you and IH, so what do you think about IH? What about Mispeled? Amor? This

is

lylo, so I'd hope you're not going to limit your focus to one person, regardless of whether it's me or somebody else.

Says that the game can, and has to be, played without WIFOM. (though, it seems to me that anytime anyone brings up a valid point of discussion with which he disagrees, he brushes it off as WIFOM and says it's pointless.)

Anytime somebody uses WIFOM as an argument, I dismiss it as WIFOM. Please give me an example of myself dismissing a valid point as WIFOM.

I said that he had defended himself to my satisfaction (which I take back now, having thoroughly read the case on him)

Why are you taking it back? Be specific. My defense was good enough before, but not anymore?

he tells us to look at Kang and Occult if Grimmy turns up scum. (Why??)

They were absent at deadline. Turns out they were just absent and needed to be replaced, but I'm always leary of people who miss deadlines.

I point out Grimmy being town looks bad for Neko but that it may be too obvious and I think he's ok (again, I take it back)

Again, why?

Neko mentions doubts about ML, says Occult feels like scum, calls me awkward and says Msldr is wishy-washy. (That's a lot of suspicion to through around in one post...)

That was also at the beginning of D2, when everybody has to be critically considered.

Votes ML and demands he defend himself. (I am under the impression that you don't vote for someone until you've heard their defense and find it weak. You don't give your judgment before the trial)

Not everybody plays that way. Votes are retractable for a reason. If it were a hammer, I'd agree with you.

178. He's still on about D1 (?)

I'm questioning how much you're reading into these posts. I was asking Indigo about his reasoning for voting ML, which was all based in D1, so yes, I did mention D1. I don't know what you're trying to get at here.


The above are, I believe, your major points. The rest is a pbpa. I'm finding your case a little vague. I'm not even sure I understand what your case is, exactly, or why you're singling me out, especially considering that this is the first time you've posted today and you're considering voting me without even

mentioning

, much less questioning, anybody else.

[neko2086]

These are not all of his posts, just the ones I found of note. Now, as per my above stated belief, I will not vote before hearing a defense.

This very much sounded like you were about ready to vote me. That, with the comment about Amor thinking it came down to us, etc., I was under the impression that you weren't really planning to look into anyone else.

Can you just clarify, then, was that an analysis of me or a case against me?

[neko2086]

I seemed that anyone that didn't play to your liking was either scummy, or just plain wrong.

Again, this is pretty vague, so if you can qualify this somehow with a quote or something, that'd be great. Same with many of the points I've responded to above.

Now, I feel that I've given good reason for not liking somebody's play at any given point. I may be playing more aggressively in this game than I do in others, but I'm really not trying to be a jackass. I'm not really trying to 'control' anything either. You'll find that some players here are far more aggressive and controlling than I am. As far as I know, I haven't personally attacked anyone or used gratuitous profanity, for example. I'm trying to be a helpful IC. Sorry if I haven't.

Anyway, it sounds like you were doing more of an analysis than a case. I thought you were trying to put a case together, so you can pretty much ignore my last paragraph in 276 as that clears things up a bit.


Mispeled, by next Friday, do you mean Aug. 8 or 15? If it's the former, I don't think you'd need to be replaced. The latter, yeah, and you may want to give your last input now.

[neko2086]

Again, do you have anything concrete to back that up? Otherwise, it just sounds like you're pretty much echoing what Freckles said.

He's been very aggressive in this game, leading the town to lynch people.

Lynching people is what this game is about... so... yeah.
I'll bite though. Here are the two lynches:
D1- we were under a deadline and nothing was happening. Grimmy was our best option (disagree? please tell me why)
D2- I didn't even

lead

the syz lynch, so, your statement isn't even all that accurate.

? for you- why didn't you suspect me much until now?

[neko2086]

why didn't you suspect me much until now?

[neko2086]

I'm only asking because it's a bit suspicious to me that you haven't suspected me until 2 people started making cases against me. If you had something concrete to back it up, maybe it'd be different, but, it just seems a little opportunistic.

[neko2086]

Still waiting to hear more from Freckles, including responses to recent posts, as well as the analyses on the other players.

[neko2086]

Freckles still has some talking to do, but in the meantime, I'll present this so that we don't stall completely.

the scummiest person that I have now is MamaLuigi. He is a loose cannon, and he admitted that he may or may not be scum. His 'hiding in plain sight' tactic may be him calling our bluffs.

Besides that, the general content of his posts are not helping us one bit. It could be that he is scum trying to sow discord among us by doing so.

Of the posts included, the person whom he makes the most references to is Mamaluigi. He believes that Mamaluigi has such a scummy feel to his behaviour, he might very well not be one. However, I beg to differ.

vote: Mamaluigi

Again, quoting my previous post, he may be bluffing us, and until he actually defends himself or comes clean, or if there is someone scummier, or if someone convinces me otherwise, my vote is on him. Another thing that motivated my vote on him is that there is no one else to go after, or there is no amount of cutting evidence that proves that they are scum compared to his.

Kang related the most to Mamaluigi in his posts. Mamaluigi also seems highly suspicious to because of his scummy behaviour. I'm calling his bluff. You never know when those people hiding in plain sight may very well be the ones who are scum.

Indigo clearly states that he thinks ML is the scummiest person at that point.

Well, since Mamaluigi is gone, I feel that our new replacement has given me a pro-town vibe. Finally, we have some discussion going!!!

unvote: Syzygy (if my vote on Mamaluigi is transferred over to him)

OK, so he's changed his mind because syz gave him pro-town vibes. This is fine, but just note that a change in mind has taken place.

I wanted to generate some discussion in this 'dead-end' game by voting for him. I was also trying to see which of the scum would follow in my footsteps by adding votes to the vote count for Mamaluigi, bringing him closer (but not enough to actally do so) to lynch him.

Here is where it all falls apart. This is a

huge

backpedal. He made it very clear that ML was the most suspicious, and that he changed his mind when he got

pro-town vibes

from syz.

Now, I was quite sure that someone would bite my gambit - the WIFOM-y nature of the post was to trigger people to respond in a way that I wanted them to; I was running possible scenarios of it in my head.

If the whole point was to get scum to join the wagon, why did you unvote when syz joined in? Why would it matter if your 'target' was replaced? If you were truly running a gambit, you wouldn't have cared about 'giving a replacement the benefit of the doubt.' Rather, you would have kept your vote and continued your experiment.

Also, how were you expecting scum to react to 'the wifom-y nature' of your post? By calling you out on wifom? By agreeing with you and voting ML so that you could say 'ha! only scum would have agreed with me there!'?

And, let's not forget, if you

were

running such a gambit, it would mean you were lying when you said ML was the scummiest to you. It wouldn't even clear you as town, as you could easily be running the gambit as scum trying to catch a townie agreeing with you. Any way you look at it, you lied at some point.

Now, when the second most proactive player in this game and a lurker get killed off, how else would you go about it? You call it Scum's Conscience, I call it 'trying to put myself in the shoes of the scum and figure out what they're doing next'.

Hence the assessment of the assassination, and the post-by-post analysis of Kang's history in this game.

the WIFOM-y nature of the post was to trigger people to respond in a way that I wanted them to

Your stories are not lining up.

Moving on to other things, though:

Practically everyone has said the reasons for voting Syz to be lynched. However, the straw that broke the camel's back was the fact that you did not even bother to defend yourself. You were at L-1 for several days, and not one reply regarding Syz has been mentioned. This giving up on the game is what convinced me to vote for you.

The 'you haven't defended yourself so I'm going to drop the hammer' post.

Trying to make a case, are we?

Again, I see no reason for a townie to ever react like this, especially,

especially

in lylo. We're

all

suspects, that's the point of the game.

It was his fault that he failed to specify his period of absence. Are you trying to tell me that it's my fault he failed to do so?!

This was clearly not the intenion, so this looks like a straw-man. For anyone not familiar with the term, it's a logical fallacy in which person A twists person B's words/argument into something completely different, then attacks it.

The last few poss, I've already addressed, and I encourage you all to reread them. I just want to add:

I see Freckles trying to attack him to gain the trust of the townspeople

when

he comes up as scum.

If you're so sure I'm scum as to say 'when' rather than 'if,' why are you not voting me yet? You even admit you haven't found anything concrete yet, and still, you're banking on my turning up scum.


So, to answer Amor, I'd much rather lynch Indigo today. We still need to hear more from him and Freckles, though (and mispeled, whenever he gets back).

[neko2086]

While we're waiting for Freckles to post something, Amor, what do you think of my case on IH?

[neko2086]

Sorry Freckles, I didn't see that.

[neko2086]

I think it's much more than just weird. Though, Freckles has backpedaled as well now, perhaps more so (see her retractions of statements she made earlier about me).

I think for sure one of Freckles and Indigo are scum. Both? I'm not sure. Indigo hasn't expressed any opinion of either myself or Freckles until today, only

after

Amor did so first. Yesterday, his sole focus was on ML and syz. His predecessors never gave a single solid opinion on anyone. I imagine that if he's scum, his partner is probably Amor, who has defended him a couple times now, and Indigo has never addressed him. Although, it's possible that IH and Freckles are doing some soft distancing. They've only addressed each other once.

[neko2086]

I'll be v/la until Sun.

Still want to lynch Indigo. Still want to hear more.

[neko2086]

Cool, so I'm back, and nothing's happening.

vote: Indigo Heron

[neko2086]

mod:

can Indigo and mispeled be prodded, please?

Freckles should be back tomorrow, so I hope we can get this show back on the road.

[neko2086]

Not necessarily, though at the pace of this game, one scum could have dropped a quiet vote and another could have hammered at leisure. So, it is probably safe to say that one of the two is scum. I'm feeling more certain of Indigo than either of them, though.

[neko2086]

Right, Indigo needs to claim now.

[neko2086]

Thanks for replacing, especially considering the situation.

Freckles should be back and posting by now.

Indigo should be claiming.

[neko2086]

Who did you protect each night?

[neko2086]

unvote

for now. Need to see if this checks out.

Where is Freckles?

Mod

, can we get a prod on Freckles, please? Thanks

[neko2086]

Yeah, Indigo, you definitely unvoted him after he claimed. You've got some explaining to do.

I'm not sure I believe mzldr would have protected me. He didn't seem too sure I was pro-town.

Now, it is possible that you were roleblocked, but we must believe that you thought NC was the cop

and

that you were chosen to be roleblocked. Not sure.

I had a hunch that he was

a power role

from the way he subtly chided Syz for his 'plan'.

Don't you mean

a cop

?

[neko2086]

Also, power role = cop, isn't it?

I just find it curious that you would say 'a power role' (meaning a cop

or

a doctor) when you claim to be the doctor and should know that the cop would be the only other power role.


Though, your story is checking out. I still think there's a somewhat good chance that you're lying, but some of your strange behavior actually does make sense considering your doc claim. I'm thinking we should lynch Freckles today.

I am curious about one other thing, though. Why did you show no concern when I had my vote on you earlier? It was there for quite some time, and if you are indeed pro-town, you ought to have realized that it could've meant the end of the game if the two scum were someone other than me and dropped the last two votes.

[neko2086]

Town should never give up at lylo. Ever. The scum have an extra chance right now, but the town doesn't.

vote: Freckles

[neko2086]

K, so nobody is doing a victory dance, meaning we got scum.

[neko2086]

New Coldness (cop) investigates neko2086 (townie)

Haha, I was right.

Iago, mispeled, nice work.


Indigo, nice try with the doc claim. You definitely made me second-guess myself.


Freckles, the *shakes fist at scum* was what really made me think you were mafia. Other than that, and the giving up at the end, you did pretty well.


Grimmy, sorry for getting you lynched. Will you ever forgive me?


Thank you for modding, MeMe!

[neko2086]

OH, and I totally thought that this game was totally fucked once the syz ordeal went down. Turns out, he was an alt of Gimbo, who has been banned for ruining games (like this one), with several alts and stupid WIFOM gambits and whatnot. Except, he didn't ruin this one. WOOHOO!