Civilization Mafia [GAME OVER]

[The DEO]

ooba will probably be replaced to be honest.

Day needs to last long enough for this to happen, even if the sub reads at night. In Mass Effect Mafia, due to the mods rules, town kept quicklynching for like 5 days thus I could not replace ooba.

Are you down for chatting with Math about Notice? Two rules though. Notice read cannot be conditioned on Vecna's alignment and Math cannot discredit you by saying you are scum.

[The DEO]

PV, why should I be TRing you? Everywhere I go, you seem to be trying to derail me.

I don't care if you townread me, because that can come and go, like the wind....

I am constantly on my guard with you (Titus) because you used to be fairly easy to read for me, but as you've started playing longer, that has become harder for me.

Then, in some other games I weren't in, you experienced some mafia trauma that really toned down your rhetoric.

You can make good cases and scumhunt, but doing a useless vote count analysis and joining "why not?" wagons is not play I expect from you as town.

But, once again I get that play-styles evolve, so it could be town you.

But, I want to keep pulling and tugging at the mask until I feel it's really your face, and not a mask.

Does that make sense?

But you haven't done that. You are not tugging at my mask but seem to oppose for opposition's sake in some places, like the Drixx read and coaching Sonia.

You also aren't encouraging ABR and Nero to give constructive thoughts.

I don't really see a Yuri stance. The only major wagon you have voted is beeboy in opposition to Yuri.

You've been working against what joint reads Math and I establish in thread.

So prod at me.

[The DEO]

*Sonia = Sodham, dang autocorrect.

@Uzi, Ok, case notice. I will get Math.

[The DEO]

PV, why should I be TRing you? Everywhere I go, you seem to be trying to derail me.

Hmmm these last bunch of posts from PV today havent put him as a pretty solid townread for you?

He is very quickly climbing my townread-mountain

I look at objectives and accomplishments in thread as much as volume and questions. My TRs all TR him, so I am trying to get there but I cannot.

[The DEO]

The most compelling point in the case to me is that Yuri ends up voting A&N who was once one of his town reads for pretty shitty reasons, without really engaging with people he was supposedly scum reading like Creature or Maxous when there was a wealth of discussion about both of them.

And yeah there's a considerable lack of gamesolving and pretty much all of Yuri's content is the back and forth with A&N or defending themselves.

This

I am not here for Caesar's posting style and would really appreciate if they would post normally

Big words are hard

And this

Also if Aeronaut lurks the game out it's a scum claim and I will be tunneling that slot with reckless abandon.

And this

Baah, get flocked scum.

[The DEO]

Friendly reminder that Notice is still scum.

Slightly less friendly extra emphasis on this point. Id like people to go back and look at my back and forth with him.

He's my biggest scumread. Id like more people to indicate they see what im seeing so we can get a wagon going here. Id much prefer this slot to be the counterwagon to Yuri than anyone else at this point since I feel it has the highest likelyhood to yield a SvS wagon race.

I prefer T v S wagon races. No one can really force an S v S wagon situation. Those 99.9% must be organic. That being said, I am undecided on Notice and I am hoping Math/Uzi can sort their differences as they talk about Notice in the framework I set up but I should get a better read hopefully regardless.

[The DEO]

1026, 1043, 1133, and 1134.

Frog also made a good point about multi-ball.

I doubt multiball, especially with flavor.

[The DEO]

Baah, get flocked scum.

Hi Math

Still me. Sorry. Math will come out after Uzi case. They wanna nap.

[The DEO]

Meh I am awake now.

> By default, anti-town factions possess factional night chat only. However, actions, including build requests, submitted by members of factional threads will be posted immediately in said thread.

From first post.

~~Math

Responding to Uzi's case

[The DEO]

The tree stump should claim so they can be investigated o3o

This is a huge fucking waste of potential town resources.

A big draw of treestump is that scum basically waste a kill on them. So outing the treestump makes it pretty useless in that regard.

Any cop-like ability should cop whoever they want to. I am really not concerned with having the treestump be confirmed town, their play will make that clear eventually.

Treestump should play to draw a nightkill and cop should play to find scum.

Wrong. An unkillable IC is a huge gain for a one shot cop role.

Town plus town

It forces scum to either a)kill the treestump freeing the cop or b) kill the stonehenge and leave an unkillable IC.

Town cop, scum pyramids

The comments of the pyramids yield a lot and if scum pyramids is not Drixx, we basically clear Drixx.

Either setup scum gooned themselves for wifom and could get wrecked on balance.

Scum henge

Scum have to confirm the treestump, or confirm a living player. Neither setup is good. Doubly so if they derp and confirm Zeus.

[The DEO]

No you saw it and tried to be bold. You just said you spent over 8+ hours reading this thread.

10. I spent 10 hours trying to catch up because I went to sleep as the thread opened and you guys decided to have stupid ass mechanical arguments instead of getting it over and done with and scumhunting. Which I thought you were probably town for trying to push it away from that.

Can you link me a game where you've pushed something as a "slip" as town before?

Be bold with what? Like what's the scum motivation there?

You know I was just trolling a bit earlier as a way to feel you out and get you involved into the game but this response seals it for me. The fact that you're trying to doubt cast my push by asking for a game in where I push a slip as town speaks volumes.

You're trying to tell me that you saw The Great Lighthouse and then immediately after your eyes magically skipped to the words factional. Considering what has been already pointed out, I find that very hard to believe. It's quite bold though because not only did you thought you could dumb tell and get away with it, you also tried to sell us on something that masons and neighbors don't really need.

This is so stupid after a long time of sheer silence I doubt Mastina would allow something this derptastic. Furthermore JaeReed asks a question of where you have done this and you don't answer. He is trying to figure out why you are saying what you are and if it is normal for you. He is trying to ascertain your meta. A doubtcast is when you intentionally try to make someone look bad. JaeReed reads off of meta and a smudge of logic but mostly emotions and meta. That question demonstrates a JaeReed Town mindset.

[The DEO]

Just don't let Pyramids be used by scum to janitor themselves.

?

[The DEO]

No you saw it and tried to be bold. You just said you spent over 8+ hours reading this thread.

10. I spent 10 hours trying to catch up because I went to sleep as the thread opened and you guys decided to have stupid ass mechanical arguments instead of getting it over and done with and scumhunting. Which I thought you were probably town for trying to push it away from that.

Can you link me a game where you've pushed something as a "slip" as town before?

Be bold with what? Like what's the scum motivation there?

You know I was just trolling a bit earlier as a way to feel you out and get you involved into the game but this response seals it for me. The fact that you're trying to doubt cast my push by asking for a game in where I push a slip as town speaks volumes.

You're trying to tell me that you saw The Great Lighthouse and then immediately after your eyes magically skipped to the words factional. Considering what has been already pointed out, I find that very hard to believe. It's quite bold though because not only did you thought you could dumb tell and get away with it, you also tried to sell us on something that masons and neighbors don't really need.

That's not doubt casting. That's asking for a game where you've done the same so I know if it's a personality trait or my scumtell. I've caught scum before for pushing on slips that aren't actually slips. I've also correctly identified town doing it as opposed to scum doing it before. It would help to know if you've done it before as town.

I'm trying to tell you I skimmed it when I c/p'ed it to the hydra pt to discuss with mastina when she had the time. And I don't dumb tell. I've chewed out a previous hydra partner for doing it before, and that was when we were actually scum. I very rarely gambit, I don't dumbtell, and I almost always have a red flag when someone tries to push a non-slip as a scumslip.

And yes, masons and neighbours can use daytalk to devastating effect. So can scum. Ask MathBlade.

I probably haven't to be honest.

See I mean that sounds believable but at the same time, the fact that you just said you copied and pasted it, means it was highlighted and that you probably took another look at it before dumping it into the Hydra PT. If so, if you're town, you would realize there would be no reason to discuss it.

**Keep your promise (breathes in) **

Daytalk I always feel is the best PR bar none. In Shadowrun where JaeReed is not so subtly referring scout and I used daytalk extensively to our advantage. Even though I never got a break from posting it let me remain consistent and strategize with scout. A couple of times I even told scout when to pivot and he proofed stuff I did.

I find it frustrating that you seem to be scumreading JaeReed for answering the question you asked then saying there is no reason to talk about it.

[The DEO]

Previous post is ~~Math

[The DEO]

And PV, if you're scum, you gotta break the town wall somewhere. The science thing is null, and you know it. The choices made were more about playstyle than alignment. The proper scum response was to oppose whichever funding (or lack there of) would help town. So I stipulate scum should have wanted to deny science but that's because I know I am town.

Saying Yuri is better than others is not stating Yuri is either town or scum, or if you'd be willing to sheep townreads there. I get the gist that your TRs all SR Yuri, you are not willing to vote there but are not TRing Yuri, which leaves me with you taking no clear stance.

Your response also saying I don't get how you'd be confused, also makes me feel like I am correct in asking for a more detailed opinion.

The reads we disagree on yes. Yet, Drixx is one of two TR reads we both have.

[The DEO]

Listen, Notice is scum. Look at what you they tried to sell me and Ali last night. Especially after they told us they copied and pasted the description of the Wonder. Copied and pasted it. That means they highlighted and right clicked! No way in hell could they've not have read the non-town part! They're scum that fucked up, it happens.

EBWOP.

The first post was unreadable to me for the longest time except the arts and sciences bit. It depends on what got fixed when and if they could read it. Just looked like a black box to me. I spent a good minute tapping it trying to make a wonder link appear til others commented it was hard to read text. It would depend on what came up on their clipboard. JaeReed not seeing/seeing it argument is NAI especially with computers in foreign countries display different websites differently.

~~Math

[The DEO]

*stipulate =speculate

[The DEO]

No you saw it and tried to be bold. You just said you spent over 8+ hours reading this thread.

10. I spent 10 hours trying to catch up because I went to sleep as the thread opened and you guys decided to have stupid ass mechanical arguments instead of getting it over and done with and scumhunting. Which I thought you were probably town for trying to push it away from that.

Can you link me a game where you've pushed something as a "slip" as town before?

Be bold with what? Like what's the scum motivation there?

You know I was just trolling a bit earlier as a way to feel you out and get you involved into the game but this response seals it for me. The fact that you're trying to doubt cast my push by asking for a game in where I push a slip as town speaks volumes.

You're trying to tell me that you saw The Great Lighthouse and then immediately after your eyes magically skipped to the words factional. Considering what has been already pointed out, I find that very hard to believe. It's quite bold though because not only did you thought you could dumb tell and get away with it, you also tried to sell us on something that masons and neighbors don't really need.

That's not doubt casting. That's asking for a game where you've done the same so I know if it's a personality trait or my scumtell. I've caught scum before for pushing on slips that aren't actually slips. I've also correctly identified town doing it as opposed to scum doing it before. It would help to know if you've done it before as town.

I'm trying to tell you I skimmed it when I c/p'ed it to the hydra pt to discuss with mastina when she had the time. And I don't dumb tell. I've chewed out a previous hydra partner for doing it before, and that was when we were actually scum. I very rarely gambit, I don't dumbtell, and I almost always have a red flag when someone tries to push a non-slip as a scumslip.

And yes, masons and neighbours can use daytalk to devastating effect. So can scum. Ask MathBlade.

I probably haven't to be honest.

See I mean that sounds believable but at the same time, the fact that you just said you copied and pasted it, means it was highlighted and that you probably took another look at it before dumping it into the Hydra PT. If so, if you're town, you would realize there would be no reason to discuss it.

**Keep your promise (breathes in) **

Daytalk I always feel is the best PR bar none. In Shadowrun where JaeReed is not so subtly referring scout and I used daytalk extensively to our advantage. Even though I never got a break from posting it let me remain consistent and strategize with scout. A couple of times I even told scout when to pivot and he proofed stuff I did.

I find it frustrating that you seem to be scumreading JaeReed for answering the question you asked then saying there is no reason to talk about it.

There answer proves they lied. There is no way you skimmed it after you said you copied and pasted it into a PT.

Then call me a liar because I have done it before several times with hold and press select all and then paste. This is something you don't do. However I am used to copying and pasting massive blocks of text without reading fist.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Also I'd like to bring up the main excuse that Jae gave. The 10 hour catch-up one.

Assuming that they were either note taking or just dumping things in their hydra PT, that excuse still doesn't check out. The Wonders are part of the first few posts by the mod. They are not on page 6, page 12, page 39, etc. They're on page 1. They are one of the first things you see and one of the actually things you might spend 5-10 minutes on or even look back on through your catch-up.

Again NAI for reasons before.

Pedit yes it is. Some websites display things RTL and others LTR and others more mobile friendly. Working as a computer programmer I am well aware it is 2017 and that is why your argument is NAI. Because we don't know how JaeReed's computer is setup.

The fact is I don't know what JaeReed could see. It is also why I hate using different colors except when needed because you never know how they show up.

~~Math

Pedit I c/p stuff for future reference or "read this later" a lot. It happens.

[The DEO]

if anybody but Drixx takes the treestump then i will personally grab a vig later and shoot them

is that a good enough reason for everybody?

Who is the them you refer to?

Also, you may not be able to. We all must submit a wonder today.

[The DEO]

Most of your case is NAI at best Uzi. I find them Town for how they are trying to see if your play is consistent.

~~Math

[The DEO]

I now decree Maxous town reads to be unacceptable

And so it shall be

I would still lynch you over Maxous.

[The DEO]

Pushing someone because of them misreading is a he-said she-said that is fruitless to base an entire read off.

They could not have possibly misread is what I'm getting at.

EBWOP.

Cutting in here for a moment.

Math, do you agree that if JaeReed did not make a mistake, they are scum?

Lil Uzi, do you agree that it's possible although you view it as unlikely that Notice made a mistake? If Notice made the mistake, that they are town?

~Titus

[The DEO]

Then you should probably reevaluate.

You're still trying to prop up counters to Yuri despite seeing Frogger's point and the VC situation.

[The DEO]

You are trying to tell me that someone saw something worthy of being discussed in a PT later, copied and pasted said thing (meaning highlighted and right clicked), and then dumped said thing that probably was double checked to make sure what they wanted to discuss was the only thing copied in a PT misread?

What I am saying is that I have no way of knowing what JaeReed could and could not see and therefore anything further than that is fruit from the poisonous tree.

~~Math

[The DEO]

But that is where I believe you are wrong. Whether scum do or do not have daychat is a big part of figuring out who has the same alignment. As either alignment I think about and sometimes discuss daychat. It is the best PR role to me ever.

~~Math

[The DEO]

No because there is nothing unclear about who can only benefit from the Wonder. Non-town is either a scum faction or a third-party one. There is no reason for town to want to discuss day chat, especially in private.

A masonry popping up later is a possibility.

I agree, it's an issue.

Yet, I struggle to see the scum motivation in what you're arguing. I find it more likely JaeReed mafe a stupid error and got hostile in an unwarranted manner after being called out.

Without the scum motivation, I cannot get there. Try an angle without the slip please.

[The DEO]

You are trying to tell me that someone saw something worthy of being discussed in a PT later, copied and pasted said thing (meaning highlighted and right clicked), and then dumped said thing that probably was double checked to make sure what they wanted to discuss was the only thing copied in a PT misread?

What I am saying is that I have no way of knowing what JaeReed could and could not see and therefore anything further than that is fruit from the poisonous tree.

~~Math

Do you agree that if someone deemed a single thing worthy of being copied that is highly unlikely they missed the non-town part?

No. I do not agree. If I see something in the first few sentences of a wall I have feelings towards I will copy paste it into my notes for further analysis. I don't agree.

~~Math

[The DEO]

@Uzi, suppose JaeReed did make an impossible mistake, what is their alignment?

@Math, What is JaeReed's alignment if they did not make a mistake?

[The DEO]

Or maybe

Just maybe

I view other people as scum being overlooked and want them to be pressured?

Attack the points I'm making if you think I'm making other counter wagons just to save Yuri, don't just discredit everything I do with that stupid assumption.

That's shit play

We aren't going to catch all scum D1. A common distancing tactic is yes, they are scum but let's get more pressure or lynch town. We have a large town block divided.

Voting the largest wagon you scumread bring consensus and forces scum to take a stand rather than playing to individual egos. Scum lack an escape hatch.

[The DEO]

@Uzi, suppose JaeReed did make an impossible mistake, what is their alignment?

@Math, What is JaeReed's alignment if they did not make a mistake?

Titus that is what I am arguing. I am saying there is no proof of him seeing the text. So there is no "slip" or "mistake" and it is NAI. I also said I think JaeReed is town.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Not caught up yet. Read up to about page 70.

Quick points:
A&N is obvtown. Stop it.
LUV, if I made consistent notes all the way through while I was catching up I literally would never have caught up with the rate you guys were churning out pages.
Vecna saying I avoided the thread after he voted me or some shit is an actual lie. It was a full hour of nothing from it since my last post and I had to have dinner and go to bed at some stage. And of course I'd have to iso it to find the posts that pinged me when it asked me to quote them. That argument would hold more weight if it didn't happen in a fucking fluid conversation where I was responding to things as I got them.
Frogger trying to set me up as mafia if it's multiball based off one comment that quite literally was just me not reading something properly makes me really uneasy.

VOTE: Vecna

I'm having a lot of trouble here because on the one hand some of its content is actually pretty solid, and on the other some is just super fucking slimey, like trying to tie me to Yuri because of the way Yuri was defending me despite the fact that Yuri has defended and attempted to buddy

a lot

of people this game. It really feels like it knows Yuri will flip scum and is trying to set up a mislynch on me. I feel like it's approaching the game from a set stances mindset.

Yuri: I'm not a fan of the buddying and whiteknighting, which I know is ironic coming from me. That said I don't feel like the emotional response to LUV's push to reveal their main was fake.
beeboy: I feel like the majority of your scumreads are lynchbait and you're usually better than that. That said, disagree with Spiffeh on the meta case. My meta on beeboy is the opposite way around, and more recent. He seems to have been largely disengaged with his games in general (at least roughly 6 months back).
LUV: I thought he was lock town with the way he was being a douche to Yuri and trying to get the main outed so he could talk about his read there, because it's something that is actually below the belt to do as scum. The fact that he later claims the whole push there was fake and he didn't actually know Yuri to begin with has me unsure what to think on it overall other than it being flat douchey tbh. That said, I think his push on me is more misguided than scummy.
Sondam: I think I can sort them given time, but I do need gerry to back up a bit on The DEO because I also think I can sort them given some time and interactions with both heads.

Vote Yuri.

Vecna is off the table.

[The DEO]

@Uzi, suppose JaeReed did make an impossible mistake, what is their alignment?

@Math, What is JaeReed's alignment if they did not make a mistake?

Titus that is what I am arguing. I am saying there is no proof of him seeing the text. So there is no "slip" or "mistake" and it is NAI. I also said I think JaeReed is town.

~~Math

It's a one word answer.

If JaeReed did

not

make a mistake, what is their alignment?

[The DEO]

@Uzi, suppose JaeReed did make an impossible mistake, what is their alignment?

@Math, What is JaeReed's alignment if they did not make a mistake?

Null.

Great, notice is here. I will back off and let you two engage Notice.

[The DEO]

The DEO Can you guys talk to each other outside of the thread please

This game is long enough already

Can you stop opposing what we need?

I am trying to actually get in sync with Math, and this is how I have to do it.

You should stop making shit counters to a scumread.

~Titus

[The DEO]

This is why hydrae need to not be a thing

No. You need to not be a thing. I have been in control of 90+ percent of our votes and objectives.

You are just being anti-town and searching for reasons to prolong this day and not cooperate despite me cooperating with you at every turn and gagging Math to ensure the best odds of a scum lynch.

Now, either vote Yuri, defend, Yuri or shut the front door and figure out what you want. You're the slot acting with dual objectives.

[The DEO]

Or we could just lynch Spiffy.

I want to force Spiffeh's hand in case he's proud town.

[The DEO]

Speaking of, @Math why are you pushing a personality tell of mine as town indicative rather than null?

Math left again to prevent cursing me out because Vecna "stopped bussing". I'll answer this though, considering I do understand their position on meta. The type of mistake that you made, according to Math, is just too sloppy to come from scum.

[The DEO]

@The DEO There's no reason you shouldn't be able to get in sync in a hydra PT that doesn't clog up the thread.

Even if you are positive Yuri is scum, there are still more. I am NOT positive that Yuri is scum and am engaging/pressuring other people in an effort to get reads on them. And it's immensely frustrating that you, among others, are writing off my scum reads just because I haven't focused entirely on Yuri.

The game has been going on for three days and like 90% of the posts in the game have come from the same 8-10 people. There's no reason to not be more expansive with scumhunting.

We've all coordinated. The townblock is largely done and decided on what reads are acceptable and what reads aren't. There's no reason to continue this fight. Some people need to be proven wrong. You need to take a stand.

Lynch Yuri or not.

I'm not writing off your scumreads. I have a whole bunch of players, but they aren't going to get narrowed down much further until we have a flip.

There is no rule that says all the time must be used.

[The DEO]

Okay I have a deal for the Titus head when Math is not around.

That's now.

[The DEO]

Okay I have a deal for the Titus head when Math is not around.

That's now.

I agree to move Notice to null if they do the same for Vecna.

I am ok with that. I will check with that.

[The DEO]

Spiffeh, can I get a response to 2031

[The DEO]

....Bruh this is hilarious you were literally pushing a Jaereedhydra lynch on the basis that they slipped

Also the fact that you instantly think of this example in such a big game tells us something.

You really pay a lot of attention to what is happening in regards to Jeareed and A&E.

If you flip scum, ill take this as another suspicion point for the Jeareed Hydra.

Ah right, this is what you meant. Thank you for reminding me, because this was indeed an important observation.

--------------------------------------------------------

People, read up on the post sequence here.

A&N mentions a list of things he looks for as scum indications.

In less than a minute, Yuri chimes in with the throwback that A&N was doing one of these very things to JaeReed.

I notice that this is very suspicious. How would you read a list of things people use to look for scumtells and IMEDIATELY link it to something that person did to someone else in this game? And then mention this very example to throw it back in their face. You wouldnt, unless it has been going through your head recently.

I once again put forward the notion that if YURI flips scum, he was so quick with this leap in logic because he has been thinking about the scumslip/dumbtell that A&N was hammering on. I feel there is a potential strong association here between Yuri & Jaereed.

Its allmost too pretty to be true, but ive said it before: If Yuri is scum, this is condemning evidence against Jaereed in combination with my other points ive been putting forward.

VOTE: Yuri

If Yuri flips scum, I will want a long fight on this. I have a different theory here, but I don't want to detract from where we do agree to the fight tomorrow. We'll have solid things to coordinate on.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Speaking of, @Math why are you pushing a personality tell of mine as town indicative rather than null?

Math left again to prevent cursing me out because Vecna "stopped bussing". I'll answer this though, considering I do understand their position on meta. The type of mistake that you made, according to Math, is just too sloppy to come from scum.

Math needs to realize that people pushing it dont see it as a sloppy mistake, but as a backfired forced dumbtell that was meant to show they couldnt possibly be scum because they didnt even know how the scum wonder worked.

And I think that's too sloppy for a hydra coached by Mastina, so I'm in agreement with Math, but for different reasons, which is why I want a Yuri flip and for us to intellectually fight things out tomorrow.

I want Spiffeh to make a choice here.
I want ABR and Nero to give full reads lists.

Then I'm ready to end the day. I think I'm almost ready to declare a scumpool if Yuri flips scum.

[The DEO]

Caesar wishes to extend His Acknowledgment to Senator NoticeMeSenpai for being the first loyal Patrician with the good sense to yield to Our mandate. We issue an invitation to Senator DEO to explain their resistance to our denunciation of the scoundrel Vecna.

We shall take this time to issue a few small decrees:

To the grumbling rabble muttering in their sleeves regarding Our Conduct and Style, off with you! We remind you that your most Imperial Caesars serve not your whims, but the Glory of Rome. Adapt.

Those inquiring after the health of my good and righteous Co-Emperor need not worry, He is well. Julius, occasionally and crudely called Aeronaut by irreverent fools, has elected to remain secluded and permit Me to take the lead in treating with this uncouth assemblage for now. Though the palace couriers have been bringing the minutes of the Senate's proceedings to His chamber door, they tell Me that they appear unopened. Worry not, for My Divine Wisdom is all you require to prosper. Julius will make an appearance on His schedule, not at the whim of His lessers.

We take this opportunity to express great suspicion of Senator Maxous. It has been said recently that he was seen taking coin from Germanic barbarians, and that his recent positions on the Senate floor have been bought and paid for by the enemies of the state. We are sure this cannot be true, but We wish to make clear that Our scrutiny is upon him.

His Imperial Majesty,
Augustus Caesar

Caesar was later betrayed by many Senators who didn't like how he did things.

[The DEO]

Can Caesar give their royal thoughts on junior senator yuri

This.

The Vecna situation will take longer than a few moments to resolve with Math, and I want to work with them to make sure their points come across in the best way possible.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Let me ask you something Titus. Do you think ive been unjustly shading you?

I did at first. Not so much now.

~Titus

[The DEO]

....Bruh this is hilarious you were literally pushing a Jaereedhydra lynch on the basis that they slipped

Also the fact that you instantly think of this example in such a big game tells us something.

You really pay a lot of attention to what is happening in regards to Jeareed and A&E.

If you flip scum, ill take this as another suspicion point for the Jeareed Hydra.

Ah right, this is what you meant. Thank you for reminding me, because this was indeed an important observation.

--------------------------------------------------------

People, read up on the post sequence here.

A&N mentions a list of things he looks for as scum indications.

In less than a minute, Yuri chimes in with the throwback that A&N was doing one of these very things to JaeReed.

I notice that this is very suspicious. How would you read a list of things people use to look for scumtells and IMEDIATELY link it to something that person did to someone else in this game? And then mention this very example to throw it back in their face. You wouldnt, unless it has been going through your head recently.

I once again put forward the notion that if YURI flips scum, he was so quick with this leap in logic because he has been thinking about the scumslip/dumbtell that A&N was hammering on. I feel there is a potential strong association here between Yuri & Jaereed.

Its allmost too pretty to be true, but ive said it before: If Yuri is scum, this is condemning evidence against Jaereed in combination with my other points ive been putting forward.

VOTE: Yuri

Except Yuri has literally been buddying the fuck out of and defending like half the playerlist, so this association is trash and ignoring the million other people who Yuri has done this to.

I'm pretty sure this just comes from someone who knows Yuri will flip scum because you're buddies, and you can't see a way to stop this ship from sinking so you want to tie me to them for an easy "justified" mislynch tomorrow.

I can only hope he will flip scum, and youre once again misrepresenting my case here. Im not talking about buddying.

im talking about a timing thing.

its almost a neurological argument.

A&E made a list of like 6-8 items that he uses to look for scumtells. It was a decent sized paragraph. Within a time-period of 60 seconds, Yuri identifies one of them as being ironic, because A&E did the very same thing with you.

My claim is that this is so short of a timeframe to have this very sharp response, that Yuri must have been thinking a decent chunk about this very fact before. You dont instantly have this fact availlable to throw it into someones face unless it has been deliberated upon earlier for other reasons. Notice how Yuri never engaged on this point before though.

That is the association that I see. One of potential scum teammates, by virtue of him instantly thinking of -your- case, out of all the potential people and all the other potential examples that mightve been in the thread at that point.

All this says is Yuri is self-conscious. If there was a daychat, I might be skeptical, but there is not. So this has to be self conscious Yuri. No scum player adapts themselves to present to a buddy's tells. That doesn't make sense.

[The DEO]

Would you have done the same if people were unjustly scumreading you and building all their reads around it? Or the one person that was your biggest townread?

I tend to get hostile if someone views their entire world around me being scum, which is why I'm trying to divorce Math's reads from your alignment until I can get some concrete evidence of your alignment to Math. Yet, the points I was concerned about were before you knew that's how Math operated.

[The DEO]

Can Caesar give their royal thoughts on junior senator yuri

This.

The Vecna situation will take longer than a few moments to resolve with Math, and I want to work with them to make sure their points come across in the best way possible.

~Titus

Why are you townreading Vecna?

Long story short. Reasons.

Vote Yuri. You scumread them. You'd swing a wagon towards them. We are not voting Vecna today.

What are your reads supposing Vecna is town?

[The DEO]

....Bruh this is hilarious you were literally pushing a Jaereedhydra lynch on the basis that they slipped

Also the fact that you instantly think of this example in such a big game tells us something.

You really pay a lot of attention to what is happening in regards to Jeareed and A&E.

If you flip scum, ill take this as another suspicion point for the Jeareed Hydra.

Ah right, this is what you meant. Thank you for reminding me, because this was indeed an important observation.

--------------------------------------------------------

People, read up on the post sequence here.

A&N mentions a list of things he looks for as scum indications.

In less than a minute, Yuri chimes in with the throwback that A&N was doing one of these very things to JaeReed.

I notice that this is very suspicious. How would you read a list of things people use to look for scumtells and IMEDIATELY link it to something that person did to someone else in this game? And then mention this very example to throw it back in their face. You wouldnt, unless it has been going through your head recently.

I once again put forward the notion that if YURI flips scum, he was so quick with this leap in logic because he has been thinking about the scumslip/dumbtell that A&N was hammering on. I feel there is a potential strong association here between Yuri & Jaereed.

Its allmost too pretty to be true, but ive said it before: If Yuri is scum, this is condemning evidence against Jaereed in combination with my other points ive been putting forward.

VOTE: Yuri

Except Yuri has literally been buddying the fuck out of and defending like half the playerlist, so this association is trash and ignoring the million other people who Yuri has done this to.

I'm pretty sure this just comes from someone who knows Yuri will flip scum because you're buddies, and you can't see a way to stop this ship from sinking so you want to tie me to them for an easy "justified" mislynch tomorrow.

I can only hope he will flip scum, and youre once again misrepresenting my case here. Im not talking about buddying.

im talking about a timing thing.

its almost a neurological argument.

A&E made a list of like 6-8 items that he uses to look for scumtells. It was a decent sized paragraph. Within a time-period of 60 seconds, Yuri identifies one of them as being ironic, because A&E did the very same thing with you.

My claim is that this is so short of a timeframe to have this very sharp response, that Yuri must have been thinking a decent chunk about this very fact before. You dont instantly have this fact availlable to throw it into someones face unless it has been deliberated upon earlier for other reasons. Notice how Yuri never engaged on this point before though.

That is the association that I see. One of potential scum teammates, by virtue of him instantly thinking of -your- case, out of all the potential people and all the other potential examples that mightve been in the thread at that point.

All this says is Yuri is self-conscious. If there was a daychat, I might be skeptical, but there is not. So this has to be self conscious Yuri. No scum player adapts themselves to present to a buddy's tells. That doesn't make sense.

It also shows he was concious about what was happening to Jaereed. very much so in my opinion. Enough to call A&E out on it as it being self-contradicting in a very rapid fashion.

At any rate I will let this rest untill tommorrow. Lets focus on this flip first.

Agreed. And I agree with your statement here, just not the conclusion you draw from it.

[The DEO]

Titus, how do I best engage mr ceasar about his wrong read on me to stop it from interfering with our work here. you know pine I assume.

Direct engagement with arguments, or ignoring?

Too early. Sort Caesar first. I'm not sure they're town.

[The DEO]

I can only hope he will flip scum, and youre once again misrepresenting my case here. Im not talking about buddying.

im talking about a timing thing.

its almost a neurological argument.

A&E made a list of like 6-8 items that he uses to look for scumtells. It was a decent sized paragraph. Within a time-period of 60 seconds, Yuri identifies one of them as being ironic, because A&E did the very same thing with you.

My claim is that this is so short of a timeframe to have this very sharp response, that Yuri must have been thinking a decent chunk about this very fact before. You dont instantly have this fact availlable to throw it into someones face unless it has been deliberated upon earlier for other reasons. Notice how Yuri never engaged on this point before though.

That is the association that I see. One of potential scum teammates, by virtue of him instantly thinking of -your- case, out of all the potential people and all the other potential examples that mightve been in the thread at that point.

That list of scumtells is actually something I was told by someone I respect a while ago that I passed on to Alisae because of his ideas about what are/aren't scumtells. I find it telling that you notice the time frame on that and yet didn't notice that an hour had elapsed between my response to you and your vote on me early game which you then tried to spin as me not responding to being indicative of dodging engagement with you while I slept. (I know right? How fucking scummy of me to be a human being with real life needs and commitments!)

And it doesn't occur to you that Yuri might have had that instant response because they were thinking about A&E pushing on it as a slip as scummy themself if town? Of course not, because you know Yuri is your buddy and you know that wasn't town motivated, which is why you could jump to that conclusion to try to tie me to them. It doesn't even occur to you that Yuri as scum might have been looking for a way to push A&N's push on me as scum-motivated anyway. Your sole motivation there was tying me to that slot.

JaeReed, stop this. This whole post is filtered through the assumption Vecna is scum.

He just scumread his target, and supposed Yuri acted as if he was scum.

I asked you for reads as if Vecna was town. You are not my hydra partner. My hydra partner, VCA, and belief in dumb errors are the only reasons I'm not ok with lynching you Day 1. After Yuri's lynch, I have no problems lynching if I felt the rest of the town would fall in line.

[The DEO]

I apologize for attacking you over being asleep. I have no more interest in this discussion for now.

What is your read on Caesar?

[The DEO]

I dont know. Refusing to read up is super-lame regardless.

Actually, I feel relatively ok with a read on Caesar. He's refusing comment on major wagons, trying to divide the townblock, and obscuring his play. That's a policy acceptable lynch if anyone he refuses to comment on flips scum since that is NOT his normal play.

[The DEO]

I'm seeing a few different scum strategies and I'll probably wind up dividing my possibilities into tiers by strategy and expected behavior.

[The DEO]

My prediction is this game is going to have a significant chunk of the scum among the big townreads.

Which is why I am putting Math's reads at the end, and probably my own exact theory based reads when Yuri is at L-2 or something. That way Math's thoughts will be out there in case we bite the bullet and scum will not be able to discredit Math in case I'm on crazy pills and they are right. If they are wrong, they'll have the entire night phase and flips to recoordinate with. Win win.

[The DEO]

And to be fair, if Titus is scum at this point it certainly is the Magnus Opus of scumplays that puts my own performance in PYP to absolute shame, so at least thats one slot that can safely move up to the top tier of my townreads where im content ruling out trickery.

My ego likes this. Expect Math to hate this.

[The DEO]

I'm just gonna stop caring as much that will make me feel better

Vote Yuri with that don't give a fuck, and throw it in our faces if we're wrong.

[The DEO]

Like he stated he sees reasons to scumread me and reasons to townread me.

He takes great offense to me shading DEO.

Why is he not sheeping DEO, or me for the townstuff I did, OR me for bussing my teammate.

Get over your emotional response if you really are town

This is what they need to do, but this reply comes off more as direct coaching and will likely be met with a hostile response regardless of alignment. People tend to rebel if being told straight out what to do. (I'm doing it with Spiffeh because I feel subtler approaches and cooperation didn't work, nor is he following up on why I'm acting the way I am but insisting I should keep playing the way he is).

[The DEO]

I'm going to work on my overarching theory of the gamestate and wake Math to try and get them to do the same. Is there any particular phenomenon you want me and Math to address that does

not

center on you?

[The DEO]

Id like to introduce games with a different format at this site sometime;

48-72h deadlines, person with the most votes at deadline is automatically lynched.

More interesting VCA that way as well, and a ton of fun psychological aspects stepping into play when the deadline is very near.

Go to Sc2mafia, but avoid any game with ika and Silverwolf. DarklordPotter also has those. Mafia Universe is also the same.

sc2mafia is where Math and I started, and explains why Math feels a certain amount of pressure to get scumreads lynched rapidly and little in building blocks or town synergy. I was literally just typing that to explain Math reads.

They're mistaking your town synergy as scum synergy.

[The DEO]

Yes, Drixx.

I have a lumbering suspicion there that probably needs to be explored or put to rest.

Ok, that one I already indirectly handled.

Basically, Drixx is already caught if we put Stonehenge on Pyramids unless all the scum a) know they have priority and b) conspired to have both pyramids and Stonehenge... and c) there's no other role that comes up in the future that would either investigate Stonehenge or Pyramids.

[The DEO]

Can Caesar give their royal thoughts on junior senator yuri

This.

The Vecna situation will take longer than a few moments to resolve with Math, and I want to work with them to make sure their points come across in the best way possible.

~Titus

Why are you townreading Vecna?

Long story short. Reasons.

Vote Yuri. You scumread them. You'd swing a wagon towards them. We are not voting Vecna today.

What are your reads supposing Vecna is town?

I don't scumread them half as much as I scumread Vecna.

Supposing Vecna town lessens my Yuri scumread a bit, as some of that is pre-flip strengthening my read. Still not fond of the slot's whiteknighting based off shaky grounds and buddying.
I have A&N hard town both for Alisae head's reaction testing and erratic playstyle lining up with his town meta so far and for Malachite's early game posting (this is also a meta read but one I'm confident in to the point where I don't ever intend to re-evaluate on this slot).
I need more interaction with you and MathBlade to feel comfortable with a read here. My main concern is not being able to sort Math since they're not able to post as much, since their reads have aligned with mine perfectly at times and they're not scumreading me. As far as with you, I can't understand your reads on some people at all, which isn't anything new, and you seem less hard tunnel on one slot than I was expecting to see from you as either alignment. I have you at a tentative town until I get a better feel from MathBlade and see your read adjustments as the game progresses.
Drixx is hard town, I can't see scum approaching the game as he did from the start with the blatant hard buddying of a slot known to get extremely paranoid over that.
beeboy pushing the lynchbait strikes me as off for him as I usually consider him to be really good at reading the tone of players.
Frogger I can see going either way but I'm currently thinking he might be town because I get this feeling that he'd look kinda obvtown to me as scum. I almost want to do a meta dive where I mix up the tabs so I don't know from the start which game is which to see if my theory here is true, I just haven't had the time to do so yet.

As for the others I haven't been here enough and focused on them enough to poke at them to get a good feel. I do think Spiffeh believed in his meta case of beeboy, so I'd be more inclined to say town there, and I do think he believed that anything other than a no resolution would screw us, and he probably wouldn't have needed to push that viewpoint so hard as scum, I think.

Which reads of mine don't make sense? You're not getting Math until I have my theory wall of the gamestate done and wake them.

[The DEO]

That doesnt account for the scenario's where pyramid dies before stonehenge, or stonehenge doesnt die though.

But my main concern isnt what happens after the tree stump dies, but that its a lock to never die. Which is the perfect cover to endgame us early given competent scum.

Right. Ok we suppose scum don't shoot Drixx.

Stonehenge is camped on Drixx, so they cannot shoot that.

Zeus on Stonehenge, so they cannot shoot that.

That's not even counting the obvious block we have going on. If scum want to protect Drixx, they cannot bus given the depth of numbers scum need.

If a cop pops late game, where do you think it's going to go.... the living treestump or Stonehenge. A treestump plays the game expecting to die and being willing to die.

This also supposes that Drixx can out manipulate me with every PR on the table. It's a fool's endeavor and Drixx giving me the tools to do it seems even MORE dumb for scum Drixx.

[The DEO]

Which reads of mine don't make sense? You're not getting Math until I have my theory wall of the gamestate done and wake them.

Vecna and Frogger mainly. I don't really know why you had Creature as town earlier either since I'm struggling to read him either way this game.

Vecna I'm tabling for now, but I strongly think that was a pride thing. Frogger, I don't see how you're not townreading him. I was scum with him in Steven Universe (Large Theme) as the Trench Warfare hydra. Meta is important to you, so I'm referencing it rather than just saying its flat out obvious.

Creature's always been a wierd bird, but he's not lurking. He's pushing who he thinks his reads are. He's just not a loud player.

[The DEO]

UNVOTE:

I want to finish reading up what I missed out on before voting again. Titus how long will you be around?

Awhile, like I said, I'm writing a theory of the whole gamestate.

[The DEO]

Is this MathBlade posting?

No.

*points at sig*

[The DEO]

Okay, just thought that you hate meta.

"Meta is important to you", it's how I can reach my audience. I don't like it but it's the fastest way to reach my audience and numerous people have said fewer posts.

[The DEO]

I do hope your overarching gameplan doesnt involve early massclaims again though. That is something I will, once again most likely, have a strong urge to combat.

I didn't say plan, I said gamestate.

I have a zero percent urge to massclaim when the setup dictates we're all VTs at the moment.

P.S. We so would have won with massclaim in PyP though so :-p. I had that one little read wrong.

[The DEO]

Hey, if you're going to keep throwing suspicion around Spiffeh rather than nutting up, we're going to have issues. I caved and realized I lost when I had. It's your turn to do the same rather than throwing a tantrum at obvious town.

Math would love this debate, however, I don't.

[The DEO]

VOTE: Yuri

As much as I want to be stubborn and contrarian I'm town reading everyone on the wagon to at least some degree and Yuri does have some real problems.

I still think people should stop giving people the benefit of the doubt (namely beeboy)

It's really weird to me that so many people spoke out against my beeboy push either by saying I was pushing a counter wagon to scum or saying my meta reasons don't hold. Beeboy still has a lot wrong with his play and even if you just disagree with my reasons, nothing he has done so far looks town.

This is a real emotion I can relate to. I've been there. I've been the policy lynch target for this. I've initiated the policy lynches, as Math will tell you.

Thank you.

[The DEO]

I'm just more confident in Yuri!scum than beeboy scum.

Echo

-Nebby

Baaah, scum get flocked.

[The DEO]

That was my stance on the Beeboy wagon around the time my own wagon was starting up.
Hell, the way I responded when Frogger asked me to join the Beeboy wagon way way back was "I have bigger fish to fry."

-Nebby

Don't rub salt in the wound.

Do you have any direct questions for Math and I for our day end gamestate hydra wall?

[The DEO]

And on some dimension the issues I have with beeboy are hard to articulate and more in my gut than anything else.

I feel like he's just going through the motions. He notices that I'm pushing a wagon hardcore and hops in the thread to say some town-sounding things and leaves again. There's no level of engagement with town reads or effort to convince people like Titus or myself or anyone else that A&N is scum. In my experience town!beeboy is all over his scum reads and makes an effort to get his town reads to see what he's saying.

Maybe that's outdated meta but it doesn't sit right with me and nothing he's contributed so far makes me think that's the case.

Correct. Apply that to the vote counts and that I asked Nero and ABR (biggest supporters of that wagon) to explain their reads on the gamestate as a whole, and got radio silence/deflection, what do you get?

[The DEO]

And on some dimension the issues I have with beeboy are hard to articulate and more in my gut than anything else.

I feel like he's just going through the motions. He notices that I'm pushing a wagon hardcore and hops in the thread to say some town-sounding things and leaves again. There's no level of engagement with town reads or effort to convince people like Titus or myself or anyone else that A&N is scum. In my experience town!beeboy is all over his scum reads and makes an effort to get his town reads to see what he's saying.

Maybe that's outdated meta but it doesn't sit right with me and nothing he's contributed so far makes me think that's the case.

I think the most telling thing is both beastboy and yuri have responded to "you're not scumhunting pressure" immediately with attempting to scumhunt, but with really weak pushes.

This is kinda meh to me. The more of the Uzi/me dichotomy on Yuri and their defensive posture of others I found more telling. When they've been the major wagon, they've made efforts to associate themselves with every other major wagon in someway shape or form.

I'm not even really disputing Spiffeh's meta point, but playstyles partially change based on the scenario presented. I'm not too strong in a mountainous setup, but I'm better when we have mechanics than form an anchor. I'd naturally have a different meta in both types of setups as they require different skill types. For most players, this is a mountainous setup, as everyone is currently a VT. Yet, that's not true from my perspective as I latch onto mechanics moreso than the role I actually have.

[The DEO]

Wrong. An unkillable IC is a huge gain for a one shot cop role.

Town plus town

It forces scum to either a)kill the treestump freeing the cop or b) kill the stonehenge and leave an unkillable IC.

Town cop, scum pyramids

The comments of the pyramids yield a lot and if scum pyramids is not Drixx, we basically clear Drixx.

Either setup scum gooned themselves for wifom and could get wrecked on balance.

Scum henge

Scum have to confirm the treestump, or confirm a living player. Neither setup is good. Doubly so if they derp and confirm Zeus.

I think a wasted scum kill + a cop result on someone else is more valuable than an IC who can post but is still dead. Especially since if the game isn't multiball and the treestump is nk'd it's safe to assume they are town. And a scum!treestump trying to manipulate us is really not something I'm concerned about since scum will try to avoid dying anyway and I think a scum!treestump would be easy to see through.

I'm going to have to compare this to The Thing mafia and your UT stance tonight.

[The DEO]

Read ABR's ISO and tell me that's not something you want to lynch tomorrow Frogger.

His ISO basically reads like The DEO/Drixx opposition disorder.

[The DEO]

A treestump is good in the right hands. I was a strong advocate for Tammy to get it in The Thing because having her around the whole game would have kept me grounded and I recognized that.

Not only is there not a "Tammy" in this game, it's different here because we have to expend more resources (Stonehenge) to get the dead treestump confirmed, where I think that role could be better utilized to clear someone who is a question mark or if we're lucky clear someone later in the game when there are less places for scum to hide.

Drixx is my Tammy.

[The DEO]

Yeah well I don't really feel the same way (no offense to Drixx intended).

You process the game in a different way. Tammy processes the game in that way. You both deal more in emotions rather than hard data (please don't take that as an insult as I think you're fine with data to. Not saying you're illogical). Drixx and I tend to deal with mafia as more of a chess match. One sides pieces versus the other, yet we don't always know who is against whom. That's part of the reason Drixx cannot keep me alive as scum, but he almost has to at the same time if we use my plan. He likely already knows most everything I'll be putting in my gamestate wall. I'm more worried when Drixx and I don't synergize. It means we likely aren't looking at the same information or I'm off on a tangent.

[The DEO]

Shallow? Try criss crossed.

In one post, he tells A and N that they'll get endgamed. The next he's voting them.

[The DEO]

Unless they come and in and do something I'd take kyouko over Yuri right now cause I am not overly compelled by the Yuri case.

What's wrong with the Yuri case?

I am just not really sold by it and would rather lynch A&N and Kyoko

What does not sell you? Details.

Why do you wanna lynch obvtown?

[The DEO]

Whichever you want to lynch more?

[The DEO]

Need to finish catching up, I started playing civilization 5 (never played before) and stayed up all night playing so I fell behind on stuff

You see this: http://steamcommunity.com/id/12vlow
This is a steam profile.
If I don't get friend requests within the next 24 hours you're blacklisted.

-Nebby

I'm friending you anyway, but this type of proof outside the game is strictly illegal on two counts.

1) Threating to carry over into future games is illegal.
2) Proof outside of the game is illegal. Much like the dice tags cannot be used.

[The DEO]

It was a jooooooooke ;~;
But I actually didn't know that.
Thanks for educating me Titus!

Nebby is sad now and will go cry.
-Nebby

Nebby should take hugs. Nebby should know Titus and Math suck at jokes. I am sure it was a great one.

*hugs*

~Titus

[The DEO]

Hey guys, I promised a Math wall. It will be the next post. I worked with Math for awhile to get their theory of the gamestate into a manner that I feel at least has them addressing the thread concerns while mostly focusing on their points and clarity. This is not how they naturally go about things, but this is how I think they could be understood. Rather than just debating Math or just outright dismissing them, please at least give them feedback on if you feel they need more evidence, a change in approach, or just works or doesn't work in this (even if it's in the past game).

I will be making one of my own but we ran out of time before I had to sleep and I want Math to be able to discuss mine too.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Beginning D1 (First 11 pages)
Three prongs of importance
1) Scum made none instantly the most popular by dogpiling on. Note: I do not feel this was an organic plan but more of a "let's deny Town information". Especially with Vecna who works better with less pieces in play.
2) Scum all defend each other and garcia in the first 11 pages.
3) They attack anyone who isn't in that 5 to see who gets traction in those first pages.

MidD1 (up til 800)
With the townread of the majority of the game in place and LUV being a wagon by A&N and Sondham things are going pretty damn good. Yuri's being voted by Titus and LUV is the only one with a vote on Leonshade on very weak sauce of naked. This is an excellent start. In the span of 30 posts Spiffeh gets voted by Maxous and Nero is something Spiffeh is trying to start using the boost of townreads. Frogger then floats a potential Maxous wagon and Titus at this point is eating up everything except Yuri. I can already see signs of it here. So I prepare for the uphill fight and try to scum hunt and confirm what I think. Beeboy votes the scums. Look who is a counter wagon at end game. Vecna takes the 3rd slot on the Maxous wagon. It's not his buddies who have done literal jack shit to hunt. LUV's vote has been sitting for a while and it protects his buddy.


EndD1
As soon as I post my theory in post 800. Spiffeh panick votes Maxous. They need to get a wagon mislynch asap with the flimsy excuse Nero's posts are better. Spiffeh's got a Creature town read down so he can sheep. Frogger then moves to the Yuri vote as its safe as too many scum on Maxous is bad and scums want a wagon to be town not scum. Maxous didn't happen because Maxous is town and the wagon is town driven. Town realized their depr. Titus goes on her MariaR is scum paranoia because of the game Maria snowed her in. But Titus still scumreads Yuri. Pretty much because all the scum are being wagoned they're split all up on each other rather evenly minus LUV who is pushing NoticeMeSenpai/JaeReed with a naked vote. If scums start more wagons it becomes suspicious so they are all bussing each other. 1188 follows rule of three. LUV says Leon Yuri Notice. Leon is never happening and LUV noticed it before. Notice is falling apart. LUV is pinned. Outs Yuri as an alt but never actually posts a reason for scumreading Yuri praying it doesn't take off. 1253/1254 solidify it. He said Notice is confirmed but votes Yuri. That's dissonance town just doesn't do there. There's no reason to compromise. LUV still hasn't provided a reason other than knowing this isn't Yuri's town game. He's been pinned by prior posts and to have a consistent narrative he has to vote Yuri early. If he does it late he's fucked.

Spiffeh plays role of vote anyone not scum. First with Maxous now Beeboy.
Frogger now departs his buddies wagon and votes beeboy because it has steam. This is a clear attempt to save Yuri.
Vecna then hops on as well.
What's really interesting is then Vecna and Frogger move to Yuri together in the span of ~50 posts.
During those approximate posts Vecna hiveminds LUV with the same Notice/Yuri/someone else threesome. Why do scum always do threesomes? It's annoying. It's also RIGHT AFTER I call them out for not bussing Yuri. Vecna defends Frogger in it as well. Then LUV says to "Fuck it" and lynch Yuri. Then scums start hopping on. It's because I pointed it out. If scums didn't hop on it'd be caught in a review of the game.
Town then votes A&N for the derp wagon and it starts to dissolve. Vecna satisfied with the stallout tries to revive NoticeMeSenpai. When that goes no where it goes back to Yuri. Spiffeh then hops on because the Yuri wagon is what is happening today. If they bail it looks suspicious. Scums have to vote Yuri.

I can understand that sometimes I'm not listened to because it seems like I'm OMGUSing. However it's hard when someone throws shade before you even post anything other than I'd like sciences. That's one opinion and they were doubtcasting anyone's ability to solve the game. I can see where it seems like that but at the same time it's really not. LUV could have a drinking game with how much he has shaded Titus's ability to solve the game before Titus caved and voted the end of none.

Look at the final vote:
None (11): Lil Uzi Vert, Vecna, Sondam, Spiffeh, Albert B. Rampage, Elbirn, Leonshade, Akane and Nebby, Maxous, beeboy, The DEO

I'm not scumreading all 11 people there. I hard townread Sondham, ABR, Elbrin, Leonshade, A&N, Maxous, beeboy and I know our slot is town.
What is interesting is Frogger's switch to sciences which I call out in my PT. I even called Maria scumsiding for doing it and I had a hard town Maria read based on the first few posts. It's not the strategy it's how they posted about it and how they all interact with each other.

I also have an extremely hard time seeing how it's not Vecna/LUV/Frogger/Spiffeh/Yuri. But if I'm wrong on someone it's probably Yuri. If any of these flip town I will reassess then, yet I just don't see it. I've listened to Titus for hours but just nothing happening.

~~Math

[The DEO]

I would love to give math some constructive feedback. But this is all confbiased as hell.

Only a flip will save math. And it not even be a Yuri one because they think Vecna, Spiff, and I are all bussing Yuri

How is it confbiased as hell? I have demonstrated what I think you are doing. The lack of hunting. 239 has random reads and doesn't address Loudmouth Vecna. Explain your none science none waffles and now that isn't trying to make sure not all scum are on none.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Keep in mind you don't put Vecna as a townread but then tell Vecna to drop something as if he is a townread.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Third time I have been threatened to be killed by a scumread. Nice to be elevated to likely NK after not posting for hours and when I did on post 800 you dropped the townread...Interesting.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Funny story Titus and I actually agree we're likely the NK which is why were are getting both our thoughts out. We just think so for different reasons.

~~Math

[The DEO]

A treestump is good in the right hands. I was a strong advocate for Tammy to get it in The Thing because having her around the whole game would have kept me grounded and I recognized that.

Not only is there not a "Tammy" in this game, it's different here because we have to expend more resources (Stonehenge) to get the dead treestump confirmed, where I think that role could be better utilized to clear someone who is a question mark or if we're lucky clear someone later in the game when there are less places for scum to hide.

I dont know no Tammy, but I wouid actually FULLY support PV to get the stump. DEO wouldnt be bad either since the slot might not even survive the first night at this rate.

Both have been the voice of reasonable discourse, voices that I wouldnt want to see silenced.

Ive witnessed too many games recently where scum kills off the vocal town players and the game dies a silent death in the end where scum just wade through the apathy to a victory.

I want only Drixx getting Pyramids and especially not PV. Anyway, I brought out Math early. Go to town you two.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Funny story Titus and I actually agree we're likely the NK which is why were are getting both our thoughts out. We just think so for different reasons.

~~Math

Tell titus to build the stump.

We will likely not. I am a big fan of not interfering with my plans of townreads, particularly when they make themselves self resolving play. If you can convince us Drixx is scum, you got a tall order, but we'd consider it. Drixx is the only TR aside from A and N that Math and I both share as strong solid town.

Good night.

~Titus

[The DEO]

1) Because you were forced to. I explained that. The scum bus gives you cred and lets you milk Titus. The fact I came in suggesting you scum makes you have to kill us. You want us to treestump so you can leverage Titus continuously. If I am treestumped then that's an entire game of us bumping heads until I can be listened to which you won't let me. Right now you don't need the cred if I am ignored but if Titus realizes what I am saying is going on then you do need it. You're forced to vote Yuri like I said.

2) I abuse PRs as scum all the time. As town in Undertale I found the only scum. As Maxous said the less PRs the more scumsided. Yes I was wrong in PyP but that wasn't with an outed liar. You are being very disconnected to me when you say you as scum said what would help scum in PYP but here you are saying as town what would help scum and it is blatantly IMHO false from 3 different setup speccers who you are townreading and aren't listening to. Yet I am confbiased for pointing out where I feel you are a hypocrite?

About the last paragraph you are right a Yuri lynch isn't telling to me but pushing you is. That is why I was before all three of you chainsawed me. I would much rather lynch in the Fearsome Four level of scum reads. But I can't get Titus on board.

Also you should post a Yuri case. None of the Fearsome Four are. I think then beeboy would see Yuri scum and get closer to a Yuri lynch which you claim to want yes?

~~Math

[The DEO]

Correction Frogger has. Was off a line in my notes. But 1/4 is still piss poor. Would like a case from you.

~~Math

[The DEO]

That may be what YOU do better. But you're actively not listening to your TOWNREADS that say they do better with more information. So if you are town you actively hampered your town reads based on what YOU do better. This is very anti town at BEST. However I think this comes from scum wanting to limit the choices we have. What is better for town is not what necessarily better for you. It's what the majority of your townreads want unless they are actively saying something crazy like removing all PR roles or shoot the innocent child. In this case the latter occurred so I am scumspecting those that said to actively remove power from the Town game solvers without scumreading the setup speccers. Especially when you're big point as to why I'm "confbiased" is when I am not 'listening to the townreads'.

I don't think you actively said you townread everyone else in that list. Most of the time you ignore them except for a defense. In the first 11 pages you're more concerned about not being scumread for the "slip" (which I think was but it's definitely weak so I didn't mention it) and trying to force NONE down our throats. I don't see the town "game solving" from you at the start of the game. It's not an active plan. As demonstrated scum don't have day chat. It's a matter of there's an active clear push for none from scum over the loudest town players that wanted it. If you think LUV's vote on None is town then I don't know what to say to that. He didn't have an opinion then all of a sudden it's a "bad idea". It's more he hoped town would pick none on their own but didn't want to risk Science/Arts taking off.

I think town pokes and scumhunts obviously but there's a different feel. I feel like you've inexplicably not hunted certain people. You decided they were town on things that they should not be townread for. (E.G. LUV townread before post 74. And if you say you don't townread him then post 74 gets infinitely worse). I don't see where you scumread Spiffeh at all except recently in just like the past hour or two. I would love your thoughts on Spiffeh and Yuri.

Spiffeh absolutely is a panicker. =26341]Source He freaks out over player lists that can catch him. He also has limits of how he interacts with partners based on how he interacts with Smart.

Scum starting more wagons is very suspicious at that point of time. There were 5-6 wagons at that point in time. Getting more wagons like that would raise a lot of suspicion especially if Nahdia did a votecount there. Notice took off and died. It was a bad push. And pointing out someone is an alt is a good way to avoid reads. If LUV was town they'd case Yuri out. All they do is say they have a scumread. There's no reasons why they are an alt and they know based on meta. I don't believe in alt outing and know of alts I will take with me to the grave per request. Therefore there is nothing interactable. There are no reasons why LUV does. With LUV's vote flopping I don't see them invested in Yuri scum. They just gave up on Notice because no traction. They wanted a mislynch of Notice. If he truly believed Notice slipped he'd tunnel Notice hell or high water or explain how he was convinced Notice was town. Instead he just says to vote Yuri.

Yuri scumflip is practically a townfirm of Notice. If Yuri flips town I don't want to touch Notice. I know JaeReed. Outside of games I talk with JaeReed on Skype. This is JaeReed town. I also don't like how you are saying that the majority of scumreads are going to be in the town then throw shade at the person suggesting a scum team outside the townreads. Between that and threatening to kill me multiple times it feels like you honestly know the scum are in Titus's reads here. If you think the scum are going to be in the townreads you need to look at which and why. Otherwise I feel like you're just excusing things when you aren't forced to be on Yuri.

Maxous as scum discredits attempts to solve as "too complicated". (See Undertale several times) And pitches alternate theories to try to get out of pressure. This post and Undertale. He's just not doing that here. Instead he stays hyper aggressive. That's not scum Maxous.

Couldn't stay on Beeboy. It wasn't a valid lynch that was going to happen. Also I did address Notice town before. Admittedly I haven't talked about Beeboy that much because of #beeboy2017 Beeboy is town because as scum Beeboy is always active. He was the main active head in the hydra. I can pick out beeboy scum rather easily. Here's meta for you for it. In Mass Effect Mafia he had a lot of time but since then his activity has gone down all over the board and this game is going so fast. Source

If Beeboy or Maxous or Notice are scum they will be caught. But right now there just isn't anything to lynch there.

About the hiveminding specifically Titus cut all that stuff out...Said it was too rambly and hard to understand

LOL I get scumread as town if I'm right or I attack them or their understanding of the world. That's what happens. People never want to adjust in mafia. You have to take your scumreads and lynch them by force. Titus disagrees with me fundamentally on style but she's hoping to rub off me but I'm hoping to show her you take the bull by the horns. You force people to talk about shit. You do it til you get an answer you're satisfied with or your scumread is lynched. It's what you do as town. Compromising no where near end of day is what causes town to be lynched. If I ever vote a townread fucking lynch me.

ABR I townread because of the crumbing of his opinions he did in the first post. ABR is also being a lurk sack because the game is moving too fast. ABR likes slower moving games he can snark and control as town. He's lurking this shit out. 100% I expect him to make a prod dodge and try to keep his slot. Maybe throw in a snark read or two but ABR is probably town. Again if he isn't then this will easily be sorted when he does post.

Leonshade is just attacking everyone from the outset. If Leonshade isn't town he deserves a scummy. When I was making my case before I had him as a light townread. Having to reread his posts solidifies that. He's making conscious thoughts from the start and asking questions. I'd be shocked if Leonshade isn't town.

You've been saying it's anti town to vote anything other than none because it helps scum. But I don't feel you explored the town benefits or listened to anyone else. It feels like you had an agenda and pushed it with complete disregard for what your townreads were saying.

Then don't claim there's one. Help me hunt it. If it is the town block Titus says it is and I'm derping pressure helps that. If it isn't then we found what's bugging you or you're bussing. Poke please.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Hmmm im even considering bidding on the stump myself by now. The only thing holding me back is self-knowledge that my towngame without being able to rely on solid mechanic discussion is rather hit and miss.

DONT YOU DARE. THAT IS DRIXX'S.

That's something me and Titus agree on.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Im wondering if Math's play is a stratagem for survival

They are either town playing good cop bad cop with their heads, or they are scum, or they are town and Math is the worst ever non-newbie I've ever played with

I have a > 60% scum win rate. I'm waiting on Frozen Angel to freaking calculate it. I can count the scum losses on ONE hand. In a game of 42 I was widely townread and identified the entire scum team coached them then had all the undead fucking murder them. Please stop calling me a newb. It's annoying. I am swingy. Sometimes I'm really right (Undertale) and (Thing Mafia -- MoI and DGB) but sometimes I'm really wrong PyP. But in PyP people only called me idiots. They didn't explain what was wrong about my theory the town block was deceiving people. And I was right that was happening. Vecna was scum and drealmerz was scum. I had the wrong people but I was right the town block was a piece of shit. My townrate is a piece of shit but that happens when you're evaluating and no one interacts and just calls you dumb or confbiased all the damn time.

~~Math

[The DEO]

What is interesting is Frogger's switch to sciences which I call out in my PT.

OH GOD FROGGER SWITCHED!

Tell me exactly what the hell is wrong with switching a vote. FOR A FUCKING RESOLUTION

Because it creates the illusion that not all the scum plopped on none.

And as for your four players bus. That's in my wall. I've even done it before in 1800. What people don't expect works.

And that game perfect game with 90% of my posts advocating for my buddy's lynch.

I know how to win as scum. If you don't think that then you need to eventually play a game with scum with me. If you're asking why would scum do/not do something you're already going about scum hunting me wrong certainly. It's more of what benefit scum get from doing something not why. And the benefit is scum are pinned so that is the natural response.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Hmmm im even considering bidding on the stump myself by now. The only thing holding me back is self-knowledge that my towngame without being able to rely on solid mechanic discussion is rather hit and miss.

DONT YOU DARE. THAT IS DRIXX'S.

That's something me and Titus agree on.

~~Math

So you continue to scumread me, but you do appeal to me to work with you? This makes no sense, you cannot have it both ways.

I do scumread you. Titus says I have to try to see things from your perspective. So this is me trying. I think it's all horse manure and you're scum pulling the wool over her eyes. Pretty much today I'm going to let Titus do her thing. I'm trying to listen to her but from her lackluster win rate IMHO Titus's play just doesn't generate wins. I know my play doesn't here but with my Aspie friends it does. Rather convincingly. I've been slowly adapting it to get better. It's not perfect by any means and some things I can't talk about but I am getting better. Have I sucked before, absolutely. I don't deny it. But by going through this agonizingly painful process of hydraing with Titus I'm trying to get better. But to be fair there's 0 reasons for the town block that have formed and all I see is antitown bullheaded play from you Vecna at the start then lynch shopping afterward then Frogger starts a bus and the rest of you are pinned. It's a common strategy actually to bus early in mafia. It works out a lot because people don't expect D1 busses.

~~Math

Pedit: You townread Drixx and myself and PV. We all wanted non town answers. Your townreads (which you never stated FYI) were against it. And you never once seemed to take it into consideration.

[The DEO]

non none* fuck autocorrect

[The DEO]

Pedit

Spoiler: Pre Olive Branch

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=66833

FYI here's 1800.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=67413

There's Gistou (where I am a good scum hunter in that one -- See the scum PT. I nailed Wayward Thinker and Cephir and RAM hydra dead to rights). Wayward killed me.
Undertale (where I nailed the one scum on replace in with 14 alive. {{It was a weird game. }}) Which I did so through information and everyone thought I was nuts. I kept asking the questions that lead me to Maxous scum repeatedly. The culting caused my his flip caused me to implode because I couldn't shake SirCakez town. If I had been able to I would have been able to turn on Gio for voting me again.

~~Math

Pedit: See that's the problem. You don't have townreads so no one can based on you not having reads in the resolution phase. It's crap. If you're town stop this. People form reads at different points. What matters is their thought process which is what must be diagnosed.

Especially I don't believe how you don't have a townread on someone in the resolution phase then ask them to stop defending you. It's crap because it cuts discussion. You could have easily seen who thought it was and wasn't a slip instead out of self preservation you cut that off. Any experienced player knows that telling a scumread to "stop it" for anything is an exercise in futility so either you do it to see how they react or because you townread them. Given the subject matter it has to be the latter and there is just not enough to support it. You were bullshitting IMHO from day one and I'm having a hard time shaking it.

Titus said I could have til 3 am to post but now I'm required to step out based on an agreement I have from her. If I have to tomorrow I will demonstrate further you actually townread our slots and then disregarded it for your own selfish idea that "none" is better. Because I don't see town you completely disregarding what everyone wants but you and then coming back and suspecting me for supposedly doing the same thing.

~~Math

Fine let's olive branch this shit out. Lynch Yuri today. You make a case. Push Yuri to be lynched. Then the next day we push Spiffeh hard see what comes out of the tree. If I'm right and those two are scum then I was right for pushing Titus's block that had Spiffeh on it and you keep giving me benefits of doubts til I'm wrong. When I'm wrong I'll sheeple Titus til Kingdom come or my reads get fixed after talking more with Titus.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Did any of: The Deo, Spiffeh, Creature, Pere, agreed to that townblock I'm insta voting them?
Now tell me who's in it thanks.
~Maria

I agreed to it but Pere is not in my block.

Vote me.

[The DEO]

Hmmm im even considering bidding on the stump myself by now. The only thing holding me back is self-knowledge that my towngame without being able to rely on solid mechanic discussion is rather hit and miss.

Then work with me and don't. Math will have to reset or I will be dead.

As for Drixx, Drixx is not a high activity poster. Drixx is read by his logic. Even if scumreading him, he is forced into an extremely negative EV play here by taking stump and no one else taking it.

[The DEO]

Mathblade

If we're talking about counter wagons to Yuri then look no further than the A&N wagon which has slowly burned into a viable wagon despite there being no valid reason given to suspect them.

This is the point where Math and I got frustrated. Math thinks every counterwagon is entirely dumb town, which is why I felt they were confbiased. I just cannot see townreading ABR when he's making no effort to be civil, no effort to sort, no effort to tell me I am wrong, no effort in the start. I will be commenting on my take shortly, including my concerns with you. I do not scumread you, but I think in a Yuri scum world, sorting you is a decent idea but bigger fish to fry.

[The DEO]

Spoiler: Titus gamestate wall

Ok first things first. I think Math's reads are wrong, but I don't presume their thinking is. That doesn't make sense to a lot of you, but I'll explain. I think Math is 100% right when they say that Vecna/Uzi/Frogger are teamed, just on the town team, not the scum one. Math is horrendous at determining town synergy unless that synergy goes with what they want. This is why I've been handling Math in the way that I have been, trying to show their reads are off but not their process in identifying teams. They aren't great at determining the gamestate and determining when to work with others and stick to their number one scumread. They are still decent at this game, if they get out of their own way. Math's issue is not one of observance, it's one of conclusions and teamwork. They've been run down by others so long that they justify it by saying my compromises are always on town and I always force others to join my way. This is the mindset I am trying to break, gradually over time. No amount of bullying will do that. No amount of telling Math will convince them they are wrong on Vecna and no amount of its popular, your townreads view it like this, you should reconsider will either. I had many similar issues until I started hydraing with people who used more rthyhm and motion to get people lynched rather than outright cases. These tools are what help distinguish town partners from scum partners, and town reluctance from scum reluctance to join a wagon. I'm not a master at these tools yet however, but I hope to get better with every game. I will have a section on me at the end of the summary.

Science versus Arts is a debate over personalities (given the unknown states). Science, Arts and None are just the tools players use to solve the game rather than actually alignment indicative on an individual level. Each player will have personal preferences. Scum will want to have felt each other out and get to know each others playstyles if they did not already.
I have a few red flags based on the votes in this resolution. The first is on our boy ABR. ABR is not above strongarming and strongmanning actions, particularly in games with limited votes and hoods. His first post says he's a romanticist at heart. Pardon me but who cares? Wouldn't that logically lead to a vote in the arts, but no ABR jumps on nothing, which is the largest wagon. He's not pushing to mold the gamestate to his will at all. What helps ABR scumhunt? He cannot kill me yet, so you can make a theoretical argument that ABR is just being an asshole opposing what we want. No one knows what ABR wants, but definitely not the current town dynamic that is happening at this current point.
ABR is more anti-science and anti-us than pro himself. He doesn't mention once what he wants, yet he is very clearly planting doubts against me and math. He has a lack of activity that is technically null for him.

Post 305
Spiffeh and MariaR head wanting none makes sense after The Thing mafia, regardless of alignment. Yet the discrediting energy in the MariaR hydra is wierd. They objected calling our statements being pro-science as a lack of a case as just awkward as crap. Anyone who knows anything about me, knows I'm a planner to the nth degree and I even view aww fuck it as a plan. Math wants to know what is special about these discredits. These are geared towards denying us the tools we want to be our best, as a specific slot rather than LUV and Spiffeh fearing the game as a whole. In a Drixx town universe, scum would fight tooth and nail to rush that through. The language here is more of a concern. Spiffeh becomes a huge hypocrite on this later, and in multiple ways. He rushes when his argument is the popular one of the day, but slows down when it isn't.
Drixx makes a play for the Pyramids here. It's a plan that's no win for scum in the endgame most likely, as we don't know what roles were in play. The amount of Drixx gambles would have to be made here is insane. The logical push to have me go for Pyramids by PeregrineV shook me as off. Why did PeregrineV expect me to go against my biggest townread? Yet, why didn't PeregrineV push back against me not wanting to be the stump myself and ensure that I could do my VCA I believe in. The fact NO ONE brought this as a point against us is rather surprising. This is one of those things I comment on when I'm looking at what is missing. It suggests either a) I'm not living to use my VCA, b) scum have a game for my VCA, c) they didn't think of it and thought shading Drixx was just a better play, or d) This is a wierd as fuck play that they have in mind which makes less sense than putting grey goose on my favorite red scum stomping heels.
There's been a lot of blowback against the town core that has been forming, and again that's from ABR. He vaguely says 793 that the townblock of "Spif, Deo, Elbrin, Vecna, Uzi, and Frogger" would endgame A and N hydra. He's radio silent until he later votes A and N. (I'll get more onto that wagon longer.) Yet, by now all the names in this town block are nearly hard townreading each other. Where's ABR yelling I'm an idiot? I gave him an open invitation to do that yelling and nothing...
Maxous is the first major wagon of the game. Yet, what's missing here; a dueling wagon. I'm pushing on MariaR for essentially shading everyone in the game.
NoticemeSenpai and MariaR hydra that starts with S are the first two major dueling wagons. Elbrin jumps on the opposite wagon, based on this slip argument that occurs repeatedly. Math and I agree that the slip argument isn't really great but for totally different reasons. I'm not thrilled with this reasoning. Yet, I'm going to run with it to explain a point for a moment. If a scum player was desperate enough to fake a slip, then we're that much closer and we should be doubling down on the townblock as it is. If Yuri flips scum, and Notice is scum, lynch the ever loving fuck out of ABR. The inconsistence babbling of being against the townblock, with a scum desperate enough to fake being in the townblock is pretty indicative that scum need to do something against a town organically recognizing each other.
What looks to be more likely though, is these are T v S or T v T with Sodham being the S. Elbrin's vote on Notice particular doesn't do it for me. Elbrin's all about supporting my pushes, yet there's little effort to ensure we're on the same wagon. He's raved about my abilities in Sudoken mafia, and that he's glad we're town, but he's not reaching out to me on an intellectual level. I have dropped him out of my townblock for this reason. I need to speak to town Elbrin. I don't think they are necessarily scum, but I need to talk with them. Not sure if it's game size or scum though.
Sodham themselves gave evidence they weren't scum, although they were not planning on it. The vote counts don't support a theory that they are scum. The counterwagon that came up to this battle were Yuri and Beeboy, who both have negative points to them in some respects. While I am of the opinion that beeboy is town, I don't particularly feel great about it. (I feel like crap wherever I place beeboy. Ask me tomorrow, and I might think beeboy scum. He's just rather low on my priority list.)
The Yuri wagon, without beeboy was countered by this garbage A and N counter. The point at its counter reaches its highest, beeboy was dismantling. That strongly suggests beeboy was the town wagon that formed organically to the Yuri wagon. Is this right? Not necessarily. I'm doing VCA without flips there. Confirmation bias is a valid criticism to levy at this, yet I'm highlighting what I see.
If Yuri, beeboy, and A and N are town and we are chasing our tails, we should be finding scum on the middle of the wagons rather than promoting any particular wagon at this point. Lynching Caesar and Notice moves up in priority.
Speaking of that Caesar dude, the hydra name thing is a total stall tactic. It's annoying and rope worthy or longer. Directly refusing to comment on wagons plus awkward speech plus a total lack of evidence for Vecna scum, excuse me but my side eye just ran out of Bernie power.
Speaking of side eyes, Nero Cain isn't giving his reads or stance yet. He doesn't have to do what I'm doing or what Math is (we're writing these at the same time), but a simple read wall and discussion of possibilities so people can peg him down to a position is good.
I haven't said much about Leonshade and SSM. They've been here, just not at the same time as me. Sitting down on the couch of Titus is a high priority for me.

PeregrineV has just always had an excuse for being anti-town and even now is feeling out the A and N wagon to see if he can hammer that.

If Yuri flips scum

If I die and you think it's because of my play, lynch Caesar, ABR, Nero. Sort Spiffeh immediately (and if he winds up lynched, be damn sure it's right because he's good with different skills that will be hard to explain or replicate, but at the same time not crying if a mistake is made given off games). Elbrin sorting after that. Get Ooba's replacement to talk.
Good luck. Do not turn on each other. Harvest my iron stomach if you need to. I love all of you and each of you have a special set of skills.
Do not lynch
Drixx, Vecna, Lil Uzi Vert, Frogger, A and N, Maxous, Creature, beeboy (wagon counter protection for the day), Leonshade

Sort
Spiffeh, Elbrin

Laser focus Squinty eyes
Caesar, Sodham (especially after last vote), Ooba, PV, Nero

Lynch and I smile
ABR

Everyone else I feel is town more likely than not. Do hear Uzi/Elbrin out on Notice. We're seeing the same facts but drawing different conclusions and Yuri rushing to link to every wagon is problematic for sorting which of us is correct.

~Obv Titus

[The DEO]

And PV, if you're scum, you gotta break the town wall somewhere. The science thing is null, and you know it. The choices made were more about playstyle than alignment. The proper scum response was to oppose whichever funding (or lack there of) would help town. So I stipulate scum should have wanted to deny science but that's because I know I am town.

Saying Yuri is better than others is not stating Yuri is either town or scum, or if you'd be willing to sheep townreads there. I get the gist that your TRs all SR Yuri, you are not willing to vote there but are not TRing Yuri, which leaves me with you taking no clear stance.

Your response also saying I don't get how you'd be confused, also makes me feel like I am correct in asking for a more detailed opinion.

The reads we disagree on yes. Yet, Drixx is one of two TR reads we both have.

This whole post doesn't really make sense to me. Try putting a single topic in a single post.

The Yuri thing I do get. I find their play scummy. But, they could be town, and are active, which means they can be read. But yes, their activity mostly involves not wanting to be outted and some sort of self-defense, which I do not like. I am not voting them now because there is still time in the day, and I want to see where it goes. When the time comes, if they have not improved their posting to where I no longer find them scummy, then I'll probably vote them. Conversely, if they devolve in posting, I might vote them sooner.
Kind of standard read gathering techniques.

Yeah, this still isn't taking a position but reeks of let me see if A and N gets more town support.

[The DEO]

Anyone in the group I named should know townblocks just lead to bad bad things (the thing mafia dota etc etc) so agreeing to it like...really?
~Maria

A townblock isn't really something players agree to. Stating it outright lets everyone know what was going on. For instance, in Smackdown, I was the only real TRed scum but Creature (I think it was Creature) wanted to extend the block artificially, so I snuck in Grey and zefiend, which allowed for your endgame lynch.

The organic townblock is probably something like me/Uzi/Frogger/Vecna/A and N. Drixx and PeregrineV are not in it, but not harrassed based on mutual trust by me and Vecna to agree to disagree. Like I know Vecna and I would piss each other off by trying to lynch each other's high townreads when we can stick to organic scumreads and fight tomorrow.

[The DEO]

Titus you call it shading but in my mind my actions are making statements/accusations not shading it's never my intent I've done it a few times yes but a lot of what I do is me calling out posts I don't like I think it's just a conflict in playstyles. The whole thing with your science case I said "You call it a case that's funny" the reason I said that was I found it weak that's all I wasn't trying to discredit your work I just thought it was weak.
~Maria

And the reason you are voting obvious town over Yuri is what?

[The DEO]

The issue I have Spiffy is that a lot of the reasoning for his votes he's casted so far just seem weak.

Spiffy's reasoning for voting Nero was really vague and quite safe and easy. He was essentially accusing him of blending in but I'm pretty sure if you look hard enough, you can accuse about 90% of the players in this game of the same thing.

Spiffy's vote for Max just felt like an overreaction rather than thinking about things critically and realizing that Max was probably just very misguided since one of the reasons Max voted for him was because of how he was treating his scum reads in a time where everyone was unable to cast a vote.

I've already went into how I hate that the Bee read is based off meta and I think someone said earlier that they have more recent meta on Bee that kind of matches how he's been playing in this game. I also can't shake the gut feeling that Bee really can't get into the game ever since he was basically ignored during the Resolution phase.

The Kyouko vote is bad as well because he doesn't provide enough examples of what he accuses him of doing and the example he did provide isn't as fringe as he describes it. The thing I was doing with Yuri was extreme but it got the result I wanted and that was for the focus to be on him. I can see someone like Kyouko who's been stuck in catch-up mode for a while and just skimming think that my entire case on him was me knowing this isn't town game and wanting to find his own reasoning for voting Yuri if it came down to it. Spiffy at no point seems to want to take that into account or even ask if this is how Kyouko comes off to people.

--

Also stop saying I should stop saying I want to lynch him. I've had doubts about him ever since the Resolution phase and I will push him if I want to.

You and I are largely in sync right now. Can you deal with Sodham? I cannot tell if scum or just paranoid. Strongly leaning scum but I don't want to confbias and I cannot quite have a full talk with them.

[The DEO]

Part of me hopes Yuri flips town so MathBlade gets a reality check

This works just as well with the story though, probably even better.

Ditto.

Oh and Vecna, Varsoona's large theme ended like two seconds ago. Basically, that game was scum Drixx trying to outsmart me mechanically and I used it like an albatross to get town in a spot to win the game. By letting him live, he was forced to narrow down the box to all his buddies.

I stole his ability and had every intent of lynching him, but he shot me first.

[The DEO]

Smackdown but not RAW.

[The DEO]

Like to me my actions are very clear and you just keep shaking your head you act like my ate is blah and you act like I'm ot doing anything but I think my logic make sense and you're just closing yourself off to me
~Maria

I am very closed off to you. You were my one wrong townread in PyP. You were bussed to discredit me, according to Vecna. I was blocking quite effectively there and you would have been sussed out if I had lived long enough. Your play was well, but protecting the scumteam and bussing you was a smart move.

You know how you tricked me? AtE? You know what I am ignoring? AtE?

You want a townread, stop voting players who make their motivations clear and are probably town and go after scum.

[The DEO]

I don't bias read in the first place I take offense to that statement.
Can you quote the case please
~Maria

Everyone bias reads, just some stronger than others. Humanity is consistently inconsistent.

[The DEO]

I don't bias read in the first place I take offense to that statement.
Can you quote the case please
~Maria

Everyone bias reads, just some stronger than others. Humanity is consistently inconsistent.

I'd like to say I'm good at looking at 2 sides of a coin
~Maria

Me too. Hell Math does too. I actually majored in social psychology and sociology in college. There is no purely unbiased individual. People are reached in different ways.

I overtly favor data over emotion. I am better with it. I am predisposed to like those players because I can predict and work with them. I am an aspie so conveying the right emotion is difficult.

Compare me to Pirate Mollie [used bc really skilled and not in game]. They don't act like I do. Fewer posts. Group rythym stuff (I try to use but I will never be as good). She taught me the value of giving space even when I think an argument is bunk (still working on it).

There's certain things that resonate more with certain players. These are all biases. Getting town to draw all of its skills is how town wins to me. That means town blocks. Scum need to get the biases in town without making a toxic environment (if possible).

Keeping me and Math calm limits our biases. What are yours?

[The DEO]

I should just let gerry do all the one on one shit he doesn't get as emotional as me since that's a scumtell I guess
~Maria

Stay, but do not do this.

If you leave, I will likely just tune out Gery.

[The DEO]

I don't bias read in the first place I take offense to that statement.
Can you quote the case please
~Maria

Everyone bias reads, just some stronger than others. Humanity is consistently inconsistent.

I'd like to say I'm good at looking at 2 sides of a coin
~Maria

Me too. Hell Math does too. I actually majored in social psychology and sociology in college. There is no purely unbiased individual. People are reached in different ways.

I overtly favor data over emotion. I am better with it. I am predisposed to like those players because I can predict and work with them. I am an aspie so conveying the right emotion is difficult.

Compare me to Pirate Mollie [used bc really skilled and not in game]. They don't act like I do. Fewer posts. Group rythym stuff (I try to use but I will never be as good). She taught me the value of giving space even when I think an argument is bunk (still working on it).

There's certain things that resonate more with certain players. These are all biases. Getting town to draw all of its skills is how town wins to me. That means town blocks. Scum need to get the biases in town without making a toxic environment (if possible).

Keeping me and Math calm limits our biases. What are yours?

You mean things I'm more likely to townread then others? I think if someone can come across geniune it'll make me tr them I'm also bias on wanting my friends to be town and when they yell at me it makes me shy away into a little ball and even when I'm town I'm more likely to scumread them because I think they should understand me. If someone overall interacts with me more it makes me bias there's a lot more but I can't say everything
~Maria

Genuine is usually a conclusion and one that is largely undiscussable. It's like says someone is town but I cannot place my finger on it.

I try to reset after every game, but don't place BoP on me and oppose what I do when I disagree/do not TR you. You've been opposing me for being who I am since the start. I will always plan if invested. I fight those who oppose me and want to find out who is on what side fast. It's who I am.

Can you look at pregame with fresh eyes and see what you find? Look for buddying of you.

#suspending disbelief you are scum for a bit

[The DEO]

I also have an extremely hard time seeing how it's not Vecna/LUV/Frogger/Spiffeh/Yuri.

Literally never post again

I'm being polite- you should be too.

oh grow a pair and say something mean pere come on you can do it free shot

This is the type of post I struggle with and irks me out on both you AND PV.

Math has unconventional reads and thinking but what does beating on them accomplish? This looks like you and PerV doing good cop bad cop.

To your wall post.

[The DEO]

I know you do plan and data that's your thing when I said "oh that's not a case haha" It was more me saying it was weak it wasn't trying to discredit that you made it it just was weak to me does that mean I'm shading you? That's not what my goal was I also don't mind people disagreeing with things I do that's how you get talk going I also sometimes don't mind people scumreading me aslong as there logic to me makes sense and I can be like "Oh I see what you mean with this" but the way you seem to be scumreading me is baffling to me because what you point out as "shade" in my eyes is me just playing the game
Are you asking me to look for people that are buddying or me buddying people?
~Maria

Disagreeing is one thing. I disagreed with you and Spiffeh on the method, but I never accused you of being fake. The weak case thing was a dig at me. I wasn't about to put myself above the rest of town given the chouce was preference. You laughing at my efforts just felt like a dig. Combine that with random SRs that go nowhere...it suggests your motivation is to shade town, not find scum. I am giving you a chance to resolve those. Follow through. Sort. Don't just say this is bad. Put it together.

I want you to look for people buddying you.

[The DEO]

I also have an extremely hard time seeing how it's not Vecna/LUV/Frogger/Spiffeh/Yuri.

Literally never post again

I'm being polite- you should be too.

oh grow a pair and say something mean pere come on you can do it free shot

This is the type of post I struggle with and irks me out on both you AND PV.

Math has unconventional reads and thinking but what does beating on them accomplish? This looks like you and PerV doing good cop bad cop.

To your wall post.

I didn't know I was addressing anything in that post what do you think I am? He just said he was being polite so I told him to be mean a bit I didn't know it was some form of attack?

Read the context. Try again.

PV has nothing nice to say about Math. (Trying to play nice guy angle and build town cred). You are encouraging him to Anger Math, which would make them a bigger distraction and do nothing useful.

[The DEO]

I know you do plan and data that's your thing when I said "oh that's not a case haha" It was more me saying it was weak it wasn't trying to discredit that you made it it just was weak to me does that mean I'm shading you? That's not what my goal was I also don't mind people disagreeing with things I do that's how you get talk going I also sometimes don't mind people scumreading me aslong as there logic to me makes sense and I can be like "Oh I see what you mean with this" but the way you seem to be scumreading me is baffling to me because what you point out as "shade" in my eyes is me just playing the game
Are you asking me to look for people that are buddying or me buddying people?
~Maria

Disagreeing is one thing. I disagreed with you and Spiffeh on the method, but I never accused you of being fake. The weak case thing was a dig at me. I wasn't about to put myself above the rest of town given the chouce was preference. You laughing at my efforts just felt like a dig. Combine that with random SRs that go nowhere...it suggests your motivation is to shade town, not find scum. I am giving you a chance to resolve those. Follow through. Sort. Don't just say this is bad. Put it together.

I want you to look for people buddying you.

Can town buddy town?

Yes. First step is documenting. Then look at why.

Math has trouble distinguishing town buddying from scum buddying, so frequently SRs townblocks.

[The DEO]

MariaR, can you slow down, stop and do what I asked of you?

Assuming you play on shorter deadline sites, you naturally take the time to sort at night? Here, focusing on putting the puzzle together more needs to happen. Otherwise it reeks of shade.

Also look for buddying comments please.

~Titus

[The DEO]

MariaR is obvTown Titus.
Notice how no one actually says how I am confbiased or what is wrong about it? If they are Town they have no interest in seeing me get better and if they are scum they only wish to discredit me. The only person I waver on is Vecna who doesn't believe me obviously but gave a damn to try.

Yuri is scum for pushing Vecna though as Yuri likes the discord between our heads.

~~Math

[The DEO]

MariaR, can you slow down, stop and do what I asked of you?

Assuming you play on shorter deadline sites, you naturally take the time to sort at night? Here, focusing on putting the puzzle together more needs to happen. Otherwise it reeks of shade.

Also look for buddying comments please.

~Titus

Yes I can do that
No on my site night phase lasts 2 to 3 minutes if you're a cop you have that much time to look and see who want to invest if you're mafia y
ou have that much time to plan choose who you want to kill etc

It's all about looking at lines you feel are real and what are fake it's fast paced and you have to just go I never got the luxury of "sitting down and planning what I want to do from here" it was always GO GO GO GO
~Maria

Yuri isn't scum yuri has no reason to after Vecna of all people at this stage in the game a wagon that's clearly not gonna pick up

Gut's a valuable skill, but it is not gelling with this group. This game, although fast paced, is not an arcade.

Yuri is just flailing associations for post flip imo and to keep Math paranoid.

I do have a point to have you document buddying. By looking at people buddying you, you'll be able to see town or scum versions of buddying in the future and assuming you town/scum, it will help narrow/test my theories of whom is scum.

[The DEO]

MariaR is obvTown Titus.
Notice how no one actually says how I am confbiased or what is wrong about it? If they are Town they have no interest in seeing me get better and if they are scum they only wish to discredit me. The only person I waver on is Vecna who doesn't believe me obviously but gave a damn to try.

Yuri is scum for pushing Vecna though as Yuri likes the discord between our heads.

~~Math

We all know why you are confbiased Math. This is the tamest answer I predicted. No one is doubting the synergy or linking you are seeing. It is only the conclusion that people feel is out there. You see the pattern but are labeling the wrong team.

[The DEO]

dont rly have much to say about uzi's case, like i hate all my early reads too. i DID respond to froggers case point by point but literally no one brought that up so w/e

feels like my wagon is scum Vecna and everything else is town. scum hoping for a town-lead wagon w a lot of players on it who are null-reading me or scumreading me only a little bit

frog is still probtown by this but i so dislike his constant 'notice isnt a viablw wagon' bull, though i think notice is town it also gives the impression that he wants me to be the only option for a wagon today

VOTE: Vecna

im unhappy w my SRs atm. still dislike akane and nebby and vecna, but the vecna thing is a rly bad feeling based on what i see as fear of my townflip.
really feeling as though most of the active players are town, and scum is in the quieter ones/lurkers, besides those ive mentioned. so w thaf in mind i guess i could do beeboy? im looking for something to be confident about but id also settle on someone who wasnt me/a strong TR

Wooo hooo the switch Town with scum play from scum.
This pokes reeks of survival.
Paraphrase ahead (sarcastic)
Vecna might be waking up to his townblock has scums in it.
Let's get rid of him.
Wait I know that wagon won't take off better suggest someone else I would be willing to lynch. Who is Town being wagoned? Beeboy? Yes I could do Beeboy.
A&N is obvTown from the first post almost. This is an attack on town-block.
End paraphrase

Vecna I waffle on but that is only on these last few posts on paper he is still a top scumread if Yuri and Spiffeh are scums.

~~Math

[The DEO]

MariaR is obvTown Titus.
Notice how no one actually says how I am confbiased or what is wrong about it? If they are Town they have no interest in seeing me get better and if they are scum they only wish to discredit me. The only person I waver on is Vecna who doesn't believe me obviously but gave a damn to try.

Yuri is scum for pushing Vecna though as Yuri likes the discord between our heads.

~~Math

We all know why you are confbiased Math. This is the tamest answer I predicted. No one is doubting the synergy or linking you are seeing. It is only the conclusion that people feel is out there. You see the pattern but are labeling the wrong team.

Lol no we don't or someone would tell me why I am. Instead we have games where I disagree on scum and I am either wildly right or wildly wrong. If it is obvious why I am conf bussing then Town would just tell me why.

And there is a 0% chance that that synergy is all town. Not fucking possible. If it is Vecna and LUV should hang up their town cards in shame for intentionally hampering the town with that none vote and ignoring most of the player base who hadn't posted yet.

~~Math

[The DEO]

@Math: I try but you're so fixated it's hard to keep trying. I'm very patient but after a certain point I just opt to work around people.

Uzi why aren't you voting for notice it's upsetting me

Notice is not happening today.
Vote Yuri.

@Yuri -- You flipping town means I talk with Titus and re-evaluate everything. However you aren't trying to get Vecna lynched. You are trying to appeal to me to do it. If you think Vecna is scum and agree with me make a case. I want you with rope today. The only question to me is if you are scum who wants me to lynch Vecna tomorrow as wifom which has happened or if you are Town and genuinely believe Vecna is scum. Prove to me you believe Vecna scum. Make a case.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Titusblade stop ignoring my love I said words to you

Will do. I was just focusing on solving Sonham first and helping that situation.

(Hey Sonham, stop talking to scum please and start with what I asked you to do.)

~Titus

[The DEO]

Vecna might be waking up to his townblock has scums in it.
Let's get rid of him.

wait wtf does this mean, how on earth are u reading this as scum me trying to mislynch vecna, isnt your whole thing that u think we're partners

I am saying IF I am wrong on Vecna that is what is happening. I don't think I am.

Prove to me Vecna scum. Pretend I don't scumread Vecna

~~Math

[The DEO]

Maria what about my Vecna vote makes u sure im town. what do you expect scum me to have done in this situation instead

The vote doesn't feel survivalist like it feels like you really sr Vedna and want a wagon on him I feel like if you were scum you would've gone for a wagon that could've got you more traction like Luv Me Deo Notice etc

LUV would get no traction despite his ISO being a drinking game of "town will never solve this game so let's hinder Town by choosing none".
We will never get traction at all. Because we are obvTown this is clearly not my scum game and if it was I would be the one corralling Titus since I have a god awesome winrate and can fool almost every player into thinking I am Town. That is my strength. Titus doesn't do that.
Notice is Town. Stawp it.

~~Math

[The DEO]

What Math doesn't understand is we don't need her to push any agenda through

lol thank you for

finally

admitting you have an agenda and pocketed Titus.

Wow. Never thought I would hear that on D1. Thought I would have to rip it out of you D3 or 4.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Math Vecna has been a TR for the whole game and then did something that looks hella scum. im like rly bad at making cases, i can just tell you that looking at vecna hes afraid of being called in a scum group that was mislynching me, and that wouldnt be as bad as looking like my buddy, bc he knows im not

contrast with jaereed whos afraid of being called my buddy

What is that something?

JaeReed isn't afraid lol. Afraid people don't do what JaeReed did.

~~Math

[The DEO]

I am caught up again, have read everything but retained zero information because it took me off and on 16 hours. Then my phones cache cleared deleting all the posts I wanted to multiquote/discuss and now I don't give a fuck

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee

Elbrin's vote on Notice particular doesn't do it for me. Elbrin's all about supporting my pushes, yet there's little effort to ensure we're on the same wagon. He's raved about my abilities in Sudoken mafia, and that he's glad we're town, but he's not reaching out to me on an intellectual level. I have dropped him out of my townblock for this reason. I need to speak to town Elbrin. I don't think they are necessarily scum, but I need to talk with them. Not sure if it's game size or scum though.

Hi I'm here let's discuss yes

Notice absolutely faked a townslip to get good boy points and that I can not abide. I want him roped today.

And if you don't believe in that at least believe in what I'm trying to do.

The rest of this is kind of...I mean I get why and what you're saying but maybe I haven't been clear. Or maybe I've changed my mind, dude I don't know

I felt really in sync with you a few (irl) days ago, but now we've gone and done that thing where we don't really agree, I think. As such I don't see how you can say I'm "all about supporting your wagons" when I don't agree with who the wagonee is. I can townread you and think you're wrong, and I often do. As for not reaching out, I haven't been able to be really present because I'm busy and this pace is stupid and I kinda wish this were a mini or that half of you would just die all at once.

So uhm yeah. We have differences regarding....a lot? Talk to me about yuri/notice, or point me to a post where you already did pretty please?

I'd like to voice a concern over your hydra kinda poopooing on the idea of a townbloc but now I think that might have been math head. Idk

Easy stuff first, Math poops on town blocks. I love them. Math struggles with town synergy, which makes her ability to acknowledge and outright work with a townblock weaker. They're ironically more fine with it if it's not labeled as a townblock or these players all townread each other. I get the sentiment of players just all dying at once.

Your disagreement on Notice is noted. Uzi disagrees too. I'm not going to claim it is a wrong opinion to have. I just disagree. Let's eliminate the players we agree on, give Notice time to actually prove it one way or the other. 99.9% of slips are not actually slips. Even the RVS slip I developed in Sudoken started trapping town. :/ Mastina is coaching Notice. That's a factor to keep in mind. We aren't really seeing different things, just disagreeing.

Now, Yuri has actual behavior based issues with them. Nearly their entire ISO prewagon is defending certain players. They aren't scumhunting in the slightest. When they get wagoned, they are throwing out as many commonly talked about players, as if priming for a scum flip. They aren't justifying why any particular player is scum for a long period of time. I'd also supplement with Frog's case, which Yuri did respond to but I found it unpersuasive. Frog's case is in 1387.

[The DEO]

(Hey Sonham, stop talking to scum please and start with what I asked you to do.)

why tf dont you want me to discuss with sondam. what are you gonna do after my townflip lmao

Uzi would you discard ur notice scumread after my townflip yes or no

and why does everyone keep saying notice isnt viable its weirding me out

Answer my question.
If you can't make a case name the something Vecna did that made you scumread Vecna.

~~Math

LUV having an agenda on D1 is hella scummy. Agendas are not NAI.

Are you seriously surprised that you are scumread when you have one?

~~Math

[The DEO]

What Math doesn't understand is we don't need her to push any agenda through

lol thank you for

finally

admitting you have an agenda and pocketed Titus.

Wow. Never thought I would hear that on D1. Thought I would have to rip it out of you D3 or 4.

~~Math

Lol having and pushing an agenda is NAI..

Correct. It's what the agenda IS that's scum indicative or town indicative. That's where Math is getting into a circle.

Uzi is scum -> he's pursuing an agenda -> it's a scum agenda -> therefore he is scum.

The process should be...

This is an agenda -> What does this person gain? -> This is that player's thought pattern.

(Hint: This is why I have a problem with your posts Maria).

[The DEO]

dont rly have much to say about uzi's case, like i hate all my early reads too. i DID respond to froggers case point by point but literally no one brought that up so w/e

feels like my wagon is scum Vecna and everything else is town. scum hoping for a town-lead wagon w a lot of players on it who are null-reading me or scumreading me only a little bit

frog is still probtown by this but i so dislike his constant 'notice isnt a viablw wagon' bull, though i think notice is town it also gives the impression that he wants me to be the only option for a wagon today

VOTE: Vecna

im unhappy w my SRs atm. still dislike akane and nebby and vecna, but the vecna thing is a rly bad feeling based on what i see as fear of my townflip.
really feeling as though most of the active players are town, and scum is in the quieter ones/lurkers, besides those ive mentioned. so w thaf in mind i guess i could do beeboy? im looking for something to be confident about but id also settle on someone who wasnt me/a strong TR

You mean this post?
No you didn't.
Tell me the exact post that made you scumread Vecna.

~~Math

[The DEO]

why not link my response along with frog's case there?
im not calling any player scum for a long period of time bc i keep changing my damn mind bc something makes me look at it a different way. do you really think my scum play would be this messy and weak? i know im an alt but i do have experience

If your main is who you are implying it is here (guessing as I'm a terrible alt hunter), I have never seen your scum game. Your town game is not perfect by any stretch but been improving. The whole "not messy and weak" is a wifom defense and garbage. You can point to this is too dumb to be scum, but it's generally not a persuasive argument.

You know what is? Stop going scattershot ADD and focus. Tell us your reads on everyone in the game and why.

[The DEO]

Aight busy today but u have me for a coupla hours

Part of me hopes Yuri flips town so MathBlade gets a reality check

This works just as well with the story though, probably even better.

Im discarding a lot of my TRs that im no longer happy w the reasoning for bc i have far too many.
Bc this is really Vecna bein scared of math's read after my townflip
Like full stop

Second i doubt spiff is scum, that isnt how scum approaches a town wagon at all, none of it. unless the frog flips scum and gives me a reason to think scum theatre, spiff is town for everythin about his progression pn my wagon

also jaereed hydra is town. post about vecnas thought that jaereed and i are buddies contains paranoia abt me being scum and this making jaereed look bad. im not talking about overt paranoia but what i got from reading in between the lines
scum jae would know im flipping town and would still address the case, but not with that feeling im getting from them that they believe ill flip scum w vecna

As much as I scumread Vecna that is not a scummy post. He was saying that it fits with my world.
Find me where you think Vecna does something scummy.
Else it looks like you are trying to get me to push Vecna and it becomes a wine show as you are caught scum who isn't even trying. If you thought Vecna was scum you'd have more than this.
Prove to me you believe it. Because right now I see no heart passion or belief at all.

~~Math

Titus that was over the line. Don't do that again.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Unless they come and in and do something I'd take kyouko over Yuri right now cause I am not overly compelled by the Yuri case.

What's wrong with the Yuri case?

I am just not really sold by it and would rather lynch A&N and Kyoko

VOTE: Yuri

Fine the recent wall was weird and I'll vote with my town reads.

ew ew ew ew ew

Spiffeh is right. This is fucking scum.

Lol no he isn't.

This is apathetic townBeeboy at its finest.

If Yuri flips scum spiffeh is getting a tunnel from hell if Titus approves.

~~Math

[The DEO]

VOTE: Bee
Holy fuck can this die in a fire yet

No. Vote Yuri.
Beeboy is town.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Titus are you town or scum reading beeboy, I can't remember

because you should be scumreading him now if you weren't before.

I never feel good about WHERE I place beeboy.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Nice of you all to finally notice

No. Beeboy is town who can't deal with the amount of posts as he can't be online as much as Mass Effect Mafia.

~~Math

[The DEO]

VOTE: Beeboy

I'm half doing this because I'm pissed at Math and the other half because I cannot be sure that beeboy is town based on his own play. I can squint and see Notice. I can stop Maxous because of wagon behavior. This is too much. Math, stop posting and skype me.

~Titus

[The DEO]

I mean I would rather lynch A&N and Kyoko I am also just getting tired of this day phase and don't see either of those happening.

I mean outside an early gut read I don't think I have ever said that I thought Yuri was town so idk what is so odd about me deciding they could be scum. Also sheeping town reads is like one of the most common things that happens on this site >.>

This. Omg this.

Furthermore the group think from Frogger and Spiffeh again. Jesus.

This is like terribad obv scum and if I am right this game should be how not to play scums.

And if it is Town then how to not ever post a convincing argument and lynch a lurker and just play with your friends all day long.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Because I put in effort towards getting to know anyone who lets me. I sit there and fucking read their ISO and see if they are struggling with activity and try to understand why they do what they do.

This Beeboy lynch is utter garbage.

Titus is postbanning me again because I don't agree with this. This hydra is infuriating me.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Uh oh Mathblade our scum team is hard pushing a wagon on obvtown!beeboy what are you gonna do about it!?!?!?

Spiffeh, shit like this makes ME want to lynch you.

~ObvTitus

[The DEO]

HOLY FUCKING SHIT
Get back on Yuri for ffs.
If beeboy wants to bus because ywall are associating him with Yuri then let him bus.

Also Math I feel you. Akane isn't talking to me and it makes me sad ;~;

-Nebby

This.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p7900445

Like Beeboy literally doesn't have time for this.
Neither does ABR.

Ugh this is bullshit.

So much bullshit to save Yuri I can't stand it.
I want a SIMPLE answer from Yuri to sell me on vecna then people mass switch to Beeboy.
Wtf.

At least one person sees it so I am not ripping my damn hair out speaking to the abyss of town sanity that all wants to townread scum.

~~Math

[The DEO]

And now fine...post ban.

*sigh*

~~Math

[The DEO]

Frogger/Uzi/Vecna (not Spiffeh), tell me who we are lynching at this point. I need to work with Math to recalibrate some things. I don't want to lynch in their big town block. I will though if I cannot get them to look at each player's agenda and reset.

[The DEO]

@Uzi, Frogger, Vecna, I will not lynch A and N, Drixx, Creature, Elbrin or you three however. I especially include Yuri, beeboy, and Notice, with a strong preference for Yuri/beeboy for VCA.

[The DEO]

VOTE: Yuri

Fine the recent wall was weird and I'll vote with my town reads.

I mean, this is basically a fuck it I'll vote Yuri post.

I agree. But it is Town fuck it.

If you think beeboy is scum with Yuri take the bus.
If you don't then why would scum Beeboy go there?
There was enough traction.

Fuck post bans. Sick and tired of it. I tried shutting up and going through all the damn posts.
Town players don't have agendas. They find scum. Argue their case and lynch it.
Beeboy is essentially we don't like Beeboy is lurking because Beeboy usually posts a fuck ton.
This lynch is horrible and Titus saying they will vote it simply because I disagree to teach me a lesson about agendas is crap. Town doesn't have an agenda.

Town doesn't ignore townreads to take away power. That is exactly what is happening this entire game from the none resolution to the different lynch pools.

I had scum pinned on voting Yuri and now they are using any excuse in the book to not do it.

Please for the love of all that is townie vote Yuri.
~~Math

[The DEO]

I mean if you read my reasoning I feel as though my reason for voting Yuri goes beyond "fuck it I am bored"

I mean I would rather lynch A&N and Kyoko I am also just getting tired of this day phase and don't see either of those happening.

Isn't this basically "fuck it I'm bored"...that's kind of how that read to me

It is Town "fuck it". Not "fuck it I'm bored" huge difference

[The DEO]

I mean if you read my reasoning I feel as though my reason for voting Yuri goes beyond "fuck it I am bored"

I mean I would rather lynch A&N and Kyoko I am also just getting tired of this day phase and don't see either of those happening.

Isn't this basically "fuck it I'm bored"...that's kind of how that read to me

It is Town "fuck it". Not "fuck it I'm bored" huge difference

Obviously ~~Math

[The DEO]

That isn't what is said but that is what it is.

People don't like the effort so they vote it. Definition of a lurker lynch.

Creature if I wasn't in a hydra I would.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Math we are going to have words after this game.

Let the evidence drive the narrative. Don't let a personal narrative you have drive the way you perceive the evidence.

I tell my writers that all the time. Do not manipulate the data to fit a preconceived opinion of yours. Let the data speak for itself, because it will drive the story.

That is what I am doing.

The data says that there is scum on the none wagon. Unless you tell me all 11 none voters are Town this is true. How did the wagon formulate? There is scum motivation in it when it is completely antitown and some players hadn't posted yet. Who posted none as soon as others posted reasons for other things ? LUV.

That is objective.
LUV had an agenda to shade town and destroy town game solving from the start.
Read his beginning ISO it is nothing but shade.
~~Math

[The DEO]

That isn't what is said but that is what it is.

People don't like the effort so they vote it. Definition of a lurker lynch.

Creature if I wasn't in a hydra I would.

~~Math

Would Titus agree?

I don't know. Titus is insistent on things that don't make sense to me at all.

I spent four hours trying to do things her way and all I get is that she doesn't get my conclusion but I am right about the motivations of the players. It is insane. With all due respect I am letting Titus answer that.

~~Math

[The DEO]

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA MY EVIL PLAN IS COMING TO FRUITION

whoops wrong thread mb

Now you are just TrYING to piss me off because scum don't have daychat per the wonder list you obstinate scum with Yuri.

~~Math

I so do wish I was a vig.

[The DEO]

That isn't what is said but that is what it is.

People don't like the effort so they vote it. Definition of a lurker lynch.

Creature if I wasn't in a hydra I would.

~~Math

Would Titus agree?

I don't know. Titus is insistent on things that don't make sense to me at all.

I spent four hours trying to do things her way and all I get is that she doesn't get my conclusion but I am right about the motivations of the players. It is insane. With all due respect I am letting Titus answer that.

~~Math

I cannot agree to being lynched, but I'm pretty sure Math knows what to do if Yuri flips town if we do that. I think they'd sub out for their sanity. I cannot ever agree to be lynched on Day 1. I don't feel that confident in my reads, nor should I.

~Titus

[The DEO]

"I'll vote anyone who isn't a strong TR" is just a really odd stance to have day 1 in a large theme

This is definitely not true. It's my stance right now as Math is unsalvagable for today.

~Titus

[The DEO]

My personal number 1 lynch is ABR.

~Titus

[The DEO]

I will NEVER make that mistake again after Thing mafia where I talk with you for hours about Magna scum and you make me feel like a piece of shit for thinking it and Magna steam rolled you. I will never strategically sub out ever. I literally could not take you telling me how much of an idiot I was for scumreading Magna. I had a fucking tell I was trying to push and if it doesn't agree with the majority you don't want me to hunt. Then guess what I never do. Because this game is

not

sheep the popular kids. It is use reads and information to lynch scums.

I don't have confidence in all of my reads as demonstrated by the IF person X is town then Y is scum. However if I don't have a belief to stand on then I am not playing mafia and if Creature decides to tunnel me for being wrong once then that says a read about Creature.

~~Math

[The DEO]

VOTE: Yuri

Ok. Math, you know what you need to do before I feel comfortable having you back in the thread. We're lynching a joint scumread but I still don't feel good about this.

~Titus

[The DEO]

I appreciate people finally considering scum!beeboy as a possiblity now

Even if it doesn't happen today I'm glad the seed has been planted

Spiffeh, meet me half way and do not deliberately piss off Math. Nothing you do will cause them to sub out.

~Titus

[The DEO]

VOTE: Yuri

Ok. Math, you know what you need to do before I feel comfortable having you back in the thread. We're lynching a joint scumread but I still don't feel good about this.

~Titus

No I really don't. :/

~~Math

[The DEO]

VOTE: Yuri

Ok. Math, you know what you need to do before I feel comfortable having you back in the thread. We're lynching a joint scumread but I still don't feel good about this.

~Titus

No I really don't. :/

~~Math

In skype and I'll keep explaining it to you then. Over and over.

~Titus

[The DEO]

I want this yuri thing to happen so Math and Titus can at least vote in their one similar read.

This line is bullshit btw "I just want to push a lynch for someone else and no reason at all <3" OH PLEASE
~Maria

That's town synergy.

~Titus

[The DEO]

I'm tempted to vote Yuri myself now just to get a flip so I can tunnel frog boy here into the ground
~Maria

MariaR, please just do what I asked of you.

I will oppose a Frogger lynch with every fiber of my being.

[The DEO]

I want this yuri thing to happen so Math and Titus can at least vote in their one similar read.

This line is bullshit btw "I just want to push a lynch for someone else and no reason at all <3" OH PLEASE
~Maria

That's town synergy.

~Titus

No...it isn't lol.

~~Math

And right now posting every player's motivations is how I have my reads. Saying you agree with what I see there then telling me how you will "change it" doesn't make me understand what I need to do.

You don't want me to post because I disagree. Hydra dissonance is a thing. Intentionally silencing your partner or calling them an idiot or that they don't know how to play a game because they disagree with how you play it is not.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Math, if you don't talk to me on skype, I'm self-voting as I view you as the single most toxic thing to this gamestate right now.

[The DEO]

Town synergy is talking about reads together and coming to an answer and trying to figure something out or helping each other on a common problem
I do not want to fucking hear your reasoning on switching your vote was because you wanted to fucking help someone fix there hydra
that is B U L L S H I T
~Maria

That's exactly what Frogger and I have been doing all game, despite Math. Frogger wants that shit with Math fixed. So do I. We'd be much further if we don't have to deal with Math.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Maria: Like i know its not the same cause you didnt vote there but lmao

anyway i probs really should go. everyone do me a favour and pretend the votes for yuri are votes for lesbians bc i think thats beautiful

I am a biological female attracted to women.
Please don't say things like this.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Titus I'm waiting for gerry to get on so we can re read together.
~Maria

Then I'm going to ask you to be quiet until you sync up and get on the same page together, now that you have acknowledged your weakness and look to who plays to it. Right now, if Yuri is scum, you're wearing a huge BUDDY ME sign.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Town synergy is talking about reads together and coming to an answer and trying to figure something out or helping each other on a common problem
I do not want to fucking hear your reasoning on switching your vote was because you wanted to fucking help someone fix there hydra
that is B U L L S H I T
~Maria

That's exactly what Frogger and I have been doing all game, despite Math. Frogger wants that shit with Math fixed. So do I. We'd be much further if we don't have to deal with Math.

~Titus

Like Thing Mafia.
That was so much better /sarcasm

~~Math

[The DEO]

That's exactly what Frogger and I have been doing all game, despite Math. Frogger wants that shit with Math fixed. So do I. We'd be much further if we don't have to deal with Math.

This is toxic, this mindset cant continue. you guys need to deal with each other privately or someone needs to sub out

That's why I restrict Math's posting. I'm not sure I SR you anymore or any of the major candidates. The more this goes on, the less clear things get.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Titus I'm waiting for gerry to get on so we can re read together.
~Maria

Then I'm going to ask you to be quiet until you sync up and get on the same page together, now that you have acknowledged your weakness and look to who plays to it. Right now, if Yuri is scum, you're wearing a huge BUDDY ME sign.

~Titus

What made you flip your read on me so suddenly? You said ate doesn't work so I don't really know what made you change why can't I just be Yuri's buddy in your eyes? Yes I am a very easy person to buddy but I'd like to think Gerry makes up for that weakness
~Maria

I'm not certain as to your alignment at all. I'm giving you a chance to prove you're the town Math believes you to be. Gerry is not a counter to your buddying vulnerability. He might help catch it but being in a hydra doesn't nullify bad tendencies, as we see here.

[The DEO]

Then I'm going to ask you to be quiet until you sync up and get on the same page together,

TITUS

I can't shut up Math for a century. I know I'm a hypocrite.

[The DEO]

I am never playing a large ever again

TBF, its not larges that are the problem its the ego's that are the problem. It was pretty clear that one of Bee or Yuri was going to be lynched today and this day phase should have ended days ago. Sometimes I feel like there's been scum theater (DEO vs. Venca) and the big personalities are talking up a storm b/c they are scum and want to make it look like they are hunting. Or maybe they just think they are the sharpest tools in the shed.

Stop trying to turn me against Vecna you scumfuck. Now, answer your reads on everyone. That should have also happened ages ago. Or are you protecting ABR?

~Titus

[The DEO]

Jesus even if Maria and I are wrong on Frogger you should at least let Maria talk so you can have a read on her tomorrow.

We are lynching Yuri and all players regardless of opinion should be able to play the game. They may be mocked ridiculed shamed and lynched for the opinion but this not being allowed to have an opinion is shit.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Or are you protecting ABR?

How is not giving the reasoning for my reads protecting ABR?

I don't even know half of your reads. You know ABR likes to control. You know ABR has an ego. Where is he? Waiting for us to implode right?

Yet, you are allowing him the excuse of doing jackshit and not giving reads by refusing to give reads and tell me where the fuck I am right or wrong when availing myself and giving you every excuse to give reads on every slot.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Or are you protecting ABR?

How is not giving the reasoning for my reads protecting ABR?

As I told you in the PT and you agreed with Town Nero doesn't give reasons. It is annoying and I hate it but it is Town Nero.

~~Math

[The DEO]

I want Spif, Deo, Elbrin, Vecna, Uzi, and Frogger to be my mason buddies.

-Nebby

You are a fool in the process of being endgamed.

"I just want people to stop lurking"... said every scum ever.

VOTE: Akane and Nebby

These posts are in sequence and ABR needs to be held accountable for this.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Those posts have nearly 1000 posts in between. That's scumreading ABR lurk.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Nero, please for the love of God vote us today or tomorrow if you cannot work with me. I'll acknowledge you tried to work with me this game, but Math is just a toxic detriment to this town.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Or we could let ABR explain what changed instead of handwaving it away as 700-1000 posts apart so NBD

This

Nero, you're refusing to give reads is stopping me from getting accountability from ABR.

[The DEO]

Spoiler: ALBERT'S ISO

I'm a romanticist at heart.

VOTE: None

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... eIsUseless

We won't let cowardly scientists determine our actions. They may feature low cunning but they are incapable of decisive action. What we need is leadership. Oppenheimer may have discovered the atomic bomb, but it was Truman who authorized the launches. We have to make the hard calls ourselves. Never let the scientists tell you the odds. We the hardworking, the talented, the men and women with true grit and determination, will choose and live with our decisions.

Hey guys, before this phase ends...

Let's all make a pledge to not proclaim that everyone is terrible, and YOU ALONE CAN FIX EVERYTHING IF ONLY YOU WERE LISTENED TO.

Ok?

Look forward to winning with you

@Mod: I would like to commence building the Pyramids please. Thanks.

Absolutely zero reason to hide that I'm doing so. It's now on me to obvtown the shit out of myself, plus I accept that I have to be lynched before any potential endgame. Won't bother me because I get to still play the game.

We submit builds by PM.

I like Stonehenge better.

I like Stonehenge better.

You don't like semi-BP-vig?

It's good too.

I want Spif, Deo, Elbrin, Vecna, Uzi, and Frogger to be my mason buddies.

-Nebby

You are a fool in the process of being endgamed.

"I just want people to stop lurking"... said every scum ever.

VOTE: Akane and Nebby

Just where did ABR explain why he stopped townreading A and N (fear of endgamed), to jumping to scumreading her?

[The DEO]

If Yuri flips scum I might be more interested in Spif tbh.

-Nebby

A freaking men.

At least Yuri/Spiffeh/Frogger is finally getting traction.

~~Math

[The DEO]

TBF, ARB already explained his scum read on A+N. Why is this even a thing?

vote:Yuri

DEO tomorrow if this flips town.

I'd scumread this, but Math is that bad.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Nero, you're refusing to give reads is stopping me from getting accountability from ABR.

I don't think that me not explaining all my reads has anything to do with ABR.

To steal a line from Tywin (though I did say a similarish thing back in the day.) "Moon Logic is a nice way of saying 'makes no sense and is absolute stupidity' but Titus is proud of that 'title' since she thinks it's a good thing"

Meh, Tywin was hurt that he got policy lynched.

You know better. Moon logic is just what others do not understand. It caught you in 199 but really, I don't want an ego fight with you. My hydra partner needs to be removed from the game or actually reset.

[The DEO]

ABR's 1625 is explaining his scum read on A+N. I mean maybe you are scum with ABR and you are trying to get me to defend ABR so when he gets bussed you can whip out your "hey look, Nero was defending scum!" But yea...its pretty clear that what ABRs reasoning was and I think this is fake derp not real derp.

You and I both know most "a lot of scum say this" is garbage, and so does ABR. Town say things too like that. It doesn't warrant that strong of a reversal. There's no game here. As long as math is in this hydra, we should die ASAP for the game state.

[The DEO]

Meh, Tywin was hurt that he got policy lynched.

b-but I like Tywin ;~;
-Nebby

He's a decent guy, doesn't change he was angry for being policied.

[The DEO]

It caught you in 199

man you had scumreads on everyone that had voted you. It should have been clear that Tywin was not my scumbuddy but you lynched him anyways.

Nero, what do you get from relitigating NY 199 here? Sure, you prove I was wrong someplace. I admit I was wrong on Tywin. What good does this ego fest do other than discredit my reads this game? What do you get from this?

[The DEO]

Fight me on the present Nero. Not the past.

[The DEO]

Claiming

1-shot Town Friendmaker

Friend: The Deo & Nero

Now you two have to be friends and stop argueing about games that aren't related to this one. <3

-Nebby

I'm ok with Nero arguing I'm scum or scumreading me. As Math needs to leave or we need to die. I'm not ok with Nero shitting on my skill as a player or an ego fest.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Creature,

you said you're not opposed to Yuri.

Sondam is not happening. Vote Yuri

First I need volunteers to take the lynch if Yuri flips town.

that's not how this works.

If you're scum, this is straight up lining up lynches.

It could also be a vote of confidence.

It could. But where is your vote on Yuri if it is?

It is likely either you seeing how confident we are and you are unsure about the wagon or you are scum and I have a read wrong. I don't see you and Frogger together as scum. Either you are town Frogger scum most likely. Frogger is town you are scum second most likely or you are both Town. Least likely.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Claiming

1-shot Town Friendmaker

Friend: The Deo & Nero

Now you two have to be friends and stop argueing about games that aren't related to this one. <3

-Nebby

I am trying :/ Just anytime I disagree I am called toxic or need a reset or sub out. I can't change my reads just to make Titus like me. She is pissed because she thinks I am ruining her town block but didn't see the Yuri Spiffeh connection and if Yuri is scum I saw it back on post 800. Being insulted constantly makes it hard but I will keep hunting.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Claiming

1-shot Town Friendmaker

Friend: The Deo & Nero

Now you two have to be friends and stop argueing about games that aren't related to this one. <3

-Nebby

I'm ok with Nero arguing I'm scum or scumreading me. As Math needs to leave or we need to die. I'm not ok with Nero shitting on my skill as a player or an ego fest.

~Titus

I'm okay with that too.
I'm not okay with you fighting about a game that ended.
I'm not okay with him shitting on your skill as a player.
I'm not okay with this ego fest.

-Nebby

Say, what do you think of

ooba, Casear, Spiffeh, ABR, Nero, PV as a pool for my suspects tomorrow? (More than 5 I know).

[The DEO]

For the record I townread Nero but what can I do about it? I posted in the PT and Titus agreed and now she's doing moon logic with what she agreed made Nero Town as a "good point" as scum logic. I have 0 idea how to proceed except state Nero town read and try to lynch Yuri and hope I get NK'd which if scum aren't idiots won't happen.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Math the Yuri and Spif connection is that Spif was tap dancing and avoiding Yuri for a long as fuck time then suddenly gave into it.

-Nebby

pedit: I agree with those except cut PV. I don't think PV is scum here.

PV has the same connection and has been blocking getting me data that would help me play my best game, so I can't cut him out as a suspect although I know he's not getting lynched.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Also I'm getting somewhat of a feeling that Jesus is playing somewhat similarly to NY199

-Nebby

Who is Jesus?

~~Math