SAGA FRONTIER MAFIA (GAME END)

[Drixx]

Since I don't get a party I'm open to suggestions on where to adventure. I don't think there's an inherent clock on when I have to decide, but let's say 48 hours. I'll keep my own counsel concerning the rest of what I know for the time being.

VOTE: Cool Cucumbers - My hydra partner is cheating on me and we both agreed that the result would be that we would end up on opposing factions. Well ... I don't have access to any PTs for this game so that is all I need to know.

[Drixx]

VOTE: DiamondSentinel
For giving me comment section flashbacks.

So, is Drixx the MC from a previous night, and we'll now vote for today's main character?

Nope. The vote today will be for tomorrow's Main Character.

I would suggest we leave this for later in the day. We haven't even had everyone check in yet. Someone might have some crazy cool role and just end up being the MC for the entire game, assuming they can demonstrate it and it's obvtown and such. Failing some reason to keep it on the same person, it's still probably a good idea to let the day transpire so we can try and avoid giving scum the MC.

[Drixx]

I assume I'm the MC today because of my character. That's what the flavor indicates anyway. I do

not

get to choose a party today. Whomever is MC every day after this will pick a party (until there are too few players, should the game go that long), and that will be public info, according to the rules/mechanics.

[Drixx]

So I really figure that there's no point in anything other than full disclosure right from the outset. I'll be around at least until tomorrow.

I am "Lute" and the only ability I start with is that I begin the game as the MC. I'm tempted to call it a pseudo-IC, but there's no confirmation for you guys of my alignment ... just your ability to go look at the flavor and see whether or not what I'm saying makes sense to you. I have a bit of flavor that tells me to work hard and explains that I begin with no inherent special abilities (so in terms of things I can do passively or actively ... nothing to start with). There's then some flavor that I'm sure fits with the theme which explains why I'm the MC today and why I don't get a party. To paraphrase, the flavor says something like "For some unknown reason the local jerks liked him." and the explanation is that I begin as MC but do not get a party.

That said, there are things I was told which the game hasn't been told. They're kind of important when it comes to voting for the MC, and I think it would be significantly bad if the MC lands in scum hands. There are obviously game changing things in the various sparks and it would be super unpleasant for some of those to be given to scum. My thinking is we can approach it two different ways, each with its own weakness:

1.) We evaluate and put the MC going forward on someone we're pretty sure is town and someone who is good at figuring out other town (since the party votes on who gets the benefits of the adventure, putting MC on someone who is hilariously bad at figuring out town would be bad).

2.) We put MC on someone who is willing to essentially be leashed to our town block, when a town block begins to form. They essentially become the proxy and decide which abilities to spark and such based upon the town block's suggestions.


I think the faults with either approach are obvious. Totally open to better ideas if someone has them.

FWIW, I actually have a slight town read on DS for #18. I don't generally form reads on day one very easily but that post screams town to me.

[Drixx]

Can we just skip the RVS and cut to the chase? Is there a reason in the OP that Drixx is MC, and I just missed it? Or is it some other reason we don't yet know?

PEdit: I think he chooses a party today.

You're the one who cast the first RVS vote, and very few players have even posted. Nothing wrong with getting out of RVS, but if you want to, you have to do it yourself. not sure if asking people will help.

Pedit: titus' day one can make you confident of her alignment? You two close?

I actually recently spent a great deal of time reading Titus games from 2015 because I felt her performance was so far ahead of the norm in Suikoden that if there were other games where she was also way ahead of base probability at figuring out alignments, then I wanted to nominate her for Best Scum Catcher. She is objectively over the course of the past year statistically several standard deviations above what basic probability predicts (I used bayes theorem and I can show my work if anyone is really that interested and would understand it ... or you can take my word for it). Anyway, suffice it to say that I nommed her (and keep hoping someone will second because being significantly better at finding scum than the vast majority of people is pretty much what that scummy is for).

So yeah ... if Titus obvtowns to me, I would probably be pretty happy to vote her and hope I earn a spot in the town block because the party mechanic is cool. I'm being super careful here ... if one were to view my recent posts they would find that I hydra with Titus as "Learned Hand". I understand her quite a lot more now than I did before.

Since I don't get a party I'm open to suggestions on where to adventure. I don't think there's an inherent clock on when I have to decide, but let's say 48 hours. I'll keep my own counsel concerning the rest of what I know for the time being.

VOTE: Cool Cucumbers - My hydra partner is cheating on me and we both agreed that the result would be that we would end up on opposing factions. Well ... I don't have access to any PTs for this game so that is all I need to know.

VOTE: Drixx
For not accepting we tried to get you in when you mentioned it.
(Can we be in your party so we can pretend to be hyrda'd at least?)
¬wgeurts

I can't have a party unless I'm MC after today. If I am, I would probably bring you guys in the party so I could talk to you in the Party PT and figure out your alignment for real. All joking aside, figuring you two out is a priority for me. You're either the biggest threat to town or among the biggest assets. That's the level of respect I have for Cerberus' intellect and your common sense. I'm a little bummed we didn't find another player so that I could be in the Cool Cucumbers hydra, but then if we had, I wouldn't be Lute, so I guess I the RNG was kind to me.

[Drixx]

Main Character: DrippingGoofball

VOTE: Cooldog

I know you tend to be contrary ABR, but why on earth would you actually vote for an MC so early in day one? I can't think of a town motive for it. I'm going to be blunt and say that rationally it feels like scum doing something that nobody will think scum would do so early. You're already hard enough for me to read and trust ... why you gotta make it harder?


P-Edit: Yeah. The rule is really clear. I can mention that there is an ongoing game. I just cannot talk in any way about what's going on in it. The fact that I am in that hydra is public info easily found in my post history, so I'm pretty sure I'm well away from crossing the line. It's contextually important to know why I might be able to read Titus in this game where I've had trouble with reading her in the past (most famously in WDPT).

P-Edit2:

Because of one of my character's flavor "abilities", I am the Main Character today. Basically whomever was assigned "Lute" as their character was going to be that. RNG chose me. That same ability prevents me having a party.

Hopefully people see that this time

[Drixx]

I actually recently spent a great deal of time reading Titus games from 2015 because I felt her performance was so far ahead of the norm in Suikoden that if there were other games where she was also way ahead of base probability at figuring out alignments, then I wanted to nominate her for Best Scum Catcher. She is objectively over the course of the past year statistically several standard deviations above what basic probability predicts (I used bayes theorem and I can show my work if anyone is really that interested and would understand it ... or you can take my word for it). Anyway, suffice it to say that I nommed her (and keep hoping someone will second because being significantly better at finding scum than the vast majority of people is pretty much what that scummy is for).

So yeah ... if Titus obvtowns to me, I would probably be pretty happy to vote her and hope I earn a spot in the town block because the party mechanic is cool. I'm being super careful here ... if one were to view my recent posts they would find that I hydra with Titus as "Learned Hand". I understand her quite a lot more now than I did before.

Everybody can have a hot year. I have a 70% win rate in 2015.

That's in 20 games. Tell me how many standard deviations above the average I am.

If you actually want to know, start a discussion about statistical analysis in Mafia Discussion, and I'll be happy to dump my thoughts on analyzing how people play as different alignments using Bayes Theorem and my thoughts on assigning values and weights. I have some preliminary thoughts on evaluating how people perform in certain roles, but it's a lot of work and I haven't figured out an actually useful reason to put in the work. Perhaps you can think of one if you want to start such a thread. I'll be happy to contribute. I don't think this thread is the place to try and go through all that.

And the Scummies are year by year, so if someone has a really good year, that's the point.

We're way besides the point though. I was simply saying that I know Titus has been significantly above the norm this past year (especially so in the past few months), so if she shows up and obvtowns to the people who can read her, I would not have any problem at all with letting her do her thing and giving her the partial immunity.

The thing people need to be aware of is that the MC isn't actually completely immune until LYLO. If they choose a party unwisely, the party is able to get through the immunity. That seems like a strong motivator for town to not only make sure the MC stays in town hands, but also to try and organize and keep scum out of the adventure party as much as possible. If the scum end up getting the MC, it also strikes me as a sort of Sophie's Choice for them because if they pull in a town party and slip or in some other way become widely scum read, the party can strip the protection ... but if they pick scum partners in the party, they make the game super easy for us.

[Drixx]

Oh
and @Drixx are you town?

Yeah. I already said so when I said that I'm essentially a pseudo-IC and claimed my character.

I know you tend to be contrary ABR, but why on earth would you actually vote for an MC so early in day one? I can't think of a town motive for it. I'm going to be blunt and say that rationally it feels like scum doing something that nobody will think scum would do so early. You're already hard enough for me to read and trust ... why you gotta make it harder?

I think it would be interesting to have DGB as the Main Character. I want her to live a while in this game so I can play longer with her. There's not much to it other than that.

Fair enough. There's lots of people I like in this game. Given just how much the MC decides and how those decisions will impact the game, I am going to be way more likely to vote someone I maybe don't know so well but have a firm town read on when the day end grows near.

Albert ya town?

Ya dude. Do you think we should vote on the region to explore?

I asked for people to give me advice, but there's no vote. I'll decide and it is public knowledge what I decide.

Also

@MOD can the MC be choosen for a few nights/days in a row?

is the MC voted today's protection valid starting today?

And is there any way for the MC to die"?

The rules say there's a vote every day for the MC. I didn't see any prohibition against choosing the same person repeatedly.

I'm not sure whether it would be a good idea to clarify your 2nd question. No need to make life easy for scum. If they know they can't kill the person, no wasted shots. If they know they can, then they can subvert the mechanic altogether. Even if the prior MC just remains the MC instead of the game completely losing the MC and Party for a day and losing the adventure and spark, your question could lead to all sorts of bad outcomes. I hope Varsoon declines to answer it. I won't be revealing what I have been told privately, and I suggest any MCs who come after me follow my example.

Your third question is addressed in the mechanics info.

@Varsoon

- The sparks appear to give new abilities, and I suspect rewards for adventure may also do so. That's really close to (if not actually) role changing. Can you clarify whether or not that's the case? I think role changing is considered bastard, although what you've come up with doesn't strike me as being super bastard, since I see nothing that indicates a loss of existing ability. Anyway ... clarification would be useful.

V: Mid-game alignment changes are bastard, but this is not that.
Adventures and Sparking Techniques simply grant new abilities to players.
You will not lose your old abilities by gaining these new ones.

[Drixx]

Just had an idea.

Unlimited lurker purge. That is all.

You've been warned~

I concur. I abhor lurking on principle, and this game's mechanics make it that much more undesireable.

VOTE: DiamondSentinel
For giving me comment section flashbacks.

So, is Drixx the MC from a previous night, and we'll now vote for today's main character?

Nope. The vote today will be for tomorrow's Main Character.

I would suggest we leave this for later in the day. We haven't even had everyone check in yet. Someone might have some crazy cool role and just end up being the MC for the entire game, assuming they can demonstrate it and it's obvtown and such. Failing some reason to keep it on the same person, it's still probably a good idea to let the day transpire so we can try and avoid giving scum the MC.

Oh, I get it now, thanks Drixx.

Since you've no party, I think it'd be a great idea to adventure to Wakatu, because ghost towns are the best location to travel alone to. The full Silent Hill experience.

I second a visit to Wakatu from Drixx. Should be fun.

Thanks for letting me know. I was thinking of visiting Baccarat when I read up on things. I started to try and speculate what each of the regions might mean, but Varsoon has already taught me (repeatedly) not to try and out-guess him.

[Drixx]

Fair enough. There's lots of people I like in this game. Given just how much the MC decides and how those decisions will impact the game, I am going to be way more likely to vote someone I maybe don't know so well but have a firm town read on when the day end grows near.

I asked for people to give me advice, but there's no vote. I'll decide and it is public knowledge what I decide.

Hahaha you cocky bastard. You're the "starting MC", but if we vote for a new one today, a new MC will be crowned and will be able to select party members.

I'll say it again. We can demote Drixx and have ourselves a new MC for tonight.

You misunderstand. You can vote for a new MC but they won't immediately supplant me. I and I alone will decide today's adventure (except, of course, that I already asked for thoughts on where to adventure). It will be publicly declared in the thread when I choose.

And no ... you can't vote a new MC today and have them take over and make a party. I'm not being cocky in the least. I'm just telling you how it works since I was told things that not everyone else was told.

[Drixx]

Scum can kill anyone they want N1 except for Drixx. That's a scary thought.

Harsh much?

[Drixx]

Yeah. I already said so when I said that I'm essentially a pseudo-IC and claimed my character.

sorry but wrong answer.

I dont believe that flavor will solve games like this mostly

varsoon is one tricky tricky foking mod m8

also ill be honest over explination felt off

first impression not so great. not so bad either though

pedit: are you sure alb?

You're not obligated to believe me, and in fact you shouldn't just because of flavor. I'm just being open about my character and what I've got. I'll either earn a town read or I won't.

[Drixx]

I'm not sure whether it would be a good idea to clarify your 2nd question. No need to make life easy for scum. If they know they can't kill the person, no wasted shots. If they know they can, then they can subvert the mechanic altogether. Even if the prior MC just remains the MC instead of the game completely losing the MC and Party for a day and losing the adventure and spark, your question could lead to all sorts of bad outcomes. I hope Varsoon declines to answer it. I won't be revealing what I have been told privately, and I suggest any MCs who come after me follow my example.

pretty sure scum can i ask that in private anyway so...

I dont see any thing lost here. since its written in teh op and it was just me not understanding it.

I'm trying to figure out what on earth was going through your head when you wrote "pretty sure scum can i ask that in private anyway so..."

The specific timing of when the previous MC loses their protection and the newly voted MC gains their protection is probably not info that we want scum to have, ergo while I know the answer (at least inasmuch as it applies to me), I see no point in answering it.

I'd appreciate it if you explained what was going on in your head when you said something that looks a lot like you were thinking "pretty sure as scum I can ask that in private anyway so...": I'm totally open to you having an explanation that you were thinking something else, but that literally jumped off the page and smacked me in the face.

[Drixx]

Question

Based on Steven universe mafia, is it safe to assume main characters are protagonists? I was reading a bit of back when it finished and flavour was pretty in line. I am pretty inclinted to believe Drixx based on that since his character is a main character in the game.

Also hi all.
~Lina

Varsoon explicitly said after SU that he was going to alter his future fake claims for scum because SU was nearly completely breakable via flavor. In fact, given that Centipeedle is both a good and a bad character on the show, one could argue that it was in fact

completely

breakable by flavor.

cant make any assumptions like that

Agreed. That's why I referred to the fact that I actually have to earn a town read and don't expect my infodump to just make everyone go "oh, he's the main character"

SU mafia is actually exactly the reason I'm not calling Drixx town based on flavour alone.
I'll go into it if you want, but the short of it is that Varsoon likely gave mafia better fakeclaims this time around, which ups the chance of scum having main character fake claims.

This.

---

From a game setup spec PoV, I am not at all surprised that I'm town and I started out as the MC. Giving the informed minority good fake claims and also giving them the initiative to start with would be quite difficult the balance. Folks need to think this stuff through for themselves though.

[Drixx]

Is the game any good?

All this gorgeous artwork Varsoon is using for the flavor is tempting alone.

Yes. Varsoon picks really good (and often fairly overlooked and underrated) stuff to feature his themes around. It's awesomesauce™

[Drixx]

There's three players I can't stand on this site and only two of them play mafia games. Sorry guys.

If I'm one of those people, it would be cool to work that out. I'm aware that I come across in text rather quite a lot poorly than I would like to. I do my very best to have no enemies. I'd be friends with everyone on the planet if I could. For whatever it's worth.

[Drixx]

Spifflop's slot has been compromised.
In order to continue forward with a fair game (and after discussion with all parties involved), I have no other choice but to modkill Spifflop's slot.
I ask that the players involved in this issue stay quiet about it until post-game.
The day phase will continue.

Spifflop was Mod-Killed on Day 1. They were

Red Okonogi

, aligned via mod-kill as a

Neutral Survivor

.
Red Okonogi's full role functions as follows:

Spoiler:

PLAYER NAME - RED OKONOGI

A super hero fighting against evil

Damn that Black X...

You must follow the hero's code of Honor. You may not talk about any of the powers featured on this rolecard, or this post restriction. If pushed to claim, you may claim as 'Red Okonogi - A Boy Fighting Against Evil', with no abilities. If you ever reveal that you can gain these abilities or if you break this post restriction in any way, you will lose access to ALKAIZER CHANGE. ALKAIZER CHANGE! You may only use this ability during the Night Phase and you are not Alkaizer. You may use this ability in addition to any other ability that you have. You may only use this ability if no other player is voting for you at the end of the previous Day Phase. You are now Alakaizer - The Hero of Justice. If any player accuses you of gaining abilities and you are not under these effects, you may not use 'ALKAIZER CHANGE!' If any day ends and at least one player is voting for you, you lose the effects of 'ALKAIZER CHANGE!' Ray Sword You may only use this ability during the Day Phase and if you are Alkaizer. Send me the name of one player. They will be voted twice with a vote that reads 'RAY SWORD'. Al-Pheonix You may only use this ability during the Night Phase and if you are Alkaizer. Target one player. If they are not aligned with town, they will die. Re-Al-Pheonix You may only use this ability during the Night Phase and if you are Alkaizer. If you used Al-Pheonix at night and you are targeted by a killing or blocking action, you do not die and are not blocked. Instead, your Al-Pheonix ability fails and you kill the player who targeted you. You will be informed if you ever use Re-Al-Pheonix, but you will not know which player triggered it. Final Crusade You may only use this ability during the Night Phase and if you are Alkaizer. You permanently take one less vote to lynch. All other players in the game are bulletproof during the night that you use this ability. If you are in a Party, you may have this ability only affect the other members of your party. Fade to Sepia. The End. You are aligned with the Protagonists (town). You win when all threats to the Protagonists are eliminated and at least one Protagonist-aligned player is still alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

I'm sorry but I see nothing in the game thread that at all appears to line up with his slot being compromised.

I got mod-killed in Titus' bastard game because of mod error, and I was town, and it made me enraged that town was penalized because of no fault of mine or any other town player (and in fact, a scum player had manipulated things to bring about the situation). I very nearly went to the site admins over it, because it was ridiculously harmful to the town to penalize them without offsetting that by doing something to the scum team to compensate.

Feel free to respond to me privately or publicly. You know I have mad respect for you, but if this turns out to be a situation where you just penalized town and gave scum a free mislynch and there's no fault on the part of Spifflop (and I see nothing in the thread that warrants mod kill), I won't restrain myself this time.

This was 100% a player based error.
We will discuss it post-game. Trust me, the modkill was the last action I wanted to take in this situation, but the slot was compromised.
Please trust in me.

[Drixx]

Erm ... let's agree to disagree. All Varsoon has to say if that modkill was Spifflop's fault is something like: "Unlike your case in Titus' game, in this case unfortunately something happened that required this. Trust me it's not a situation where the town is being unfairly penalized like the situation you are referring to." and I'll chill and wait till end game to find out what happened. If any player on a team does something warranting a mod kill, then the rest of his team has to bear the consequences. It's just not at all clear that this is the case at the moment.

And you well know that I tried handling the previous situation in private and I am still waiting (and shall apparently wait until hell freezes over) for a satisfactory explanation for how killing a slot because of no fault of their own and then doing nothing to offset the drastic shift in game balance that action created can possibly be justified as even an acceptable course of action, let alone the best course.

Here I am in another game and I see something that looks very similar. We're like a single real time day into the game and already the balance of the game is shifted in favor of scum by one free mislynch.

I have sent you a message, but please understand that due to the nature of the offense, I can not discuss it in full until the game is over.
Trust my judgment.
Furthermore, I ask that all players focus on continuing the game. If you want to discuss this issue, PM me. This thread is for playing the game; both Spifflop and I would prefer if the modkill would not disrupt the game-play as they often do.

[Drixx]

Fluminator's soft defense of Cerberus (who is under fire for being much more open about reads early on day one than usual) just jumped off the monitor and smacked me in the face.

As someone who talks to Cerberus daily and has played with him extensively, I have to agree that the post in question was quite a lot more firm in its thinking than He ever is on day one. He threw in some equivocation, but he wasn't equivocating about me. He's acting far outside of what I would expect. Mitigating that is that he was specifically asked to say something about the people in question. Still ... the Cool Cucumbers need to be pushed to interact as much as possible. We don't want to leave Cerb and Wguerts together alive if they got assigned scum. It will puff up his ego that I'm saying this, but Cerberus is way too intelligent for me to be comfy with the idea of him being scum.

[Drixx]

It's beyond a shadow of a doubt a dramatic shift from his normal day one posting. Generally if you ask him about players on day one, he is willing to evaluate them, but inevitably he reverts to not really having reads because his approach requires having knowledge of flips and how people interacted with, voted for, defended or attacked the flipped parties. Having none of that, he made what looks a lot like a reads list with reasons. I didn't feel like that post was his usual "I can see these reasons why X person might be town, but also there's some other reasons to think they might be scum, so I can't really tell" results.

Fluminator soft defending him by saying that Cerb's meta must have changed a lot since they last played is what brought me round to suspecting it may actually be something to suspect. Cerberus has an absurdly stable meta (in and out of hydra), and I simply don't believe anyone could say with a straight face that they played with Cerberus before and suggest that he was different then from what Spifflop said in #319.

Whatever the reason, Cerberus is way more aggressive this game and willing to give his thinking on players much more readily and what he said is much less wishy washy than usual. The question then becomes why the change. Until Flum threw out that absurd soft defense, I was watching to see if it was just influence by Wgeurts or Cerb perhaps taking advantage of being in hydra with someone less like himself to try and work on his day one game.

[Drixx]

I have a pretty solid argument for why the game might want to keep me as MC, at least in the short term. It's basically a function of initiative. Scum starts out knowing a ridiculous amount more than town and therefore has a huge initiative advantage. I'll try not to belabor this too much but I do want to give examples of what I mean:

1.) The Scum team(s) by their number will know basically immediately if they are in a multi-ball situation, or if there's a good probability of there being a third party.
2.) Scum know who isn't on their team, which is a huge advantage (duh), but they also get to see all their own assortment of roles and abilities, which gives them some idea of what the town collectively has in order for the game to be balanced. So they also have a really good idea of what they're looking for out of posts from players not on their team (whether that is looking for particular PR crumbs, a third party or whatever).

So that said, I already claimed completely. I don't start with anything other than being the MC today and solo adventuring without a party. My best assumption is that whatever reward comes from the adventure will be automatically given to me, so I start with nothing but I'll gain

something

... I just don't know what.

{Reminder to please advise on a region to pick to adventure in}

I believe if you think about the idea of initiative, it will be pretty obvious that giving scum the MC to start with would just add more to the already large initiative imbalance that exists at the start of any given mafia game. Scum are a team, town doesn't know anything as a general rule, etc...

So yeah ... Drixx for populist MC for the short term, basically. I'm good with working up a town block and letting town reads have a huge hand in deciding adventuring choice, party composition and spark choices. Just think about it. Obviously nobody that isn't me can know for sure, but I think the initiative thing makes a lot of sense in terms of game theory. I happen to have knowledge that I am actually town so I know that town was given the MC, and that makes perfect sense to me in terms of balancing a game. The question is whether it will make sense to the rest of you townies out there.

As far as it goes, I would prefer to hand it off to someone who is super town read at some point. I'm just not sure anyone will super obvtown enough today that we want to hand that to them, when there's at least some probabilistic arguments to be made for there being a really high probability that town would start with the MC, and that would necessarily make me town. As I said in an earlier post, I viewed my role as a pseudo-IC. I can't summon the mod to confirm me, but just thinking about balance and game spec, it makes sense, at least to me. I'm curious if it makes sense to the people I have some light town reads on atm. I obviously have a piece of information that nobody else in the town has which may be putting a metaphorical thumb on the scales here and so my thinking could be biased by what I know to a degree that makes the speculation worthless.

But on the off chance that my thoughts on that would be useful, there you have it. I normally would want more information to even mess with setup speculation, but it seems to me that the whole MC/party mechanic and the rewards and the sparks mechanic are all super important and if we can keep all of that going into town hands, that should help tremendously.

Thoughts welcomed.

[Drixx]

Your passive stops you from having party members. We want town to spark abilities. We want to go on adventures. There's no way we are voting you for MC again.

I don't give a flying fuck what you think, the entire purpose of me joining this game was so that I could go exploring, adventuring, partying. There's zero chance of you being MC again.

Umm... no. I don't get to

start

with a party. It doesn't prevent me from getting one if I am actually voted to be the MC. And umm... why would you necessarily be excluded from the party if I were the MC? The MC chooses the party... and I'm pretty sure I haven't expressed any negative read of you so why would I exclude you? o.O

[Drixx]

Like I went to look just to be sure. It is absolutely

explicit

that I only lack a party on day one. I don't think I ever suggested that it was game long, but feel free to point out where I said something that made you conclude that. Just for the sake of me getting better at communicating things, because how you arrived at that conclusion is a mystery to me.

[Drixx]

OK. I'm still against you being MC again because you haven't done anything that says town to me.

That's an entirely different argument. I kind of got distracted by trying to figure out all the mechanics implications. I'm sorry that doesn't seem town to you.


P-Edit: I am scum hunting. I don't necessarily go about it the way you do, and it's not always the obvious point of a post I make that I want it to help me read people.

[Drixx]

We already told you to go to Wakatu because it's a ghost town. You are being a HUGE DISTRACTION to the momentum we are building on Rylai.

Well you don't have to make it a huge distraction. People can think about it and decide what they think. That's all I asked.

Like 3 people have said something about which region to go to. I'm glad for the advice from those of you who have, but the majority of the game hasn't offered word one about it.

[Drixx]

*sigh*

You realize that post was a gigantic bait post right? Why do people blow up my gambits?

RE #548 - Yeah ... I haven't said one word about a lot of stuff in the game yet. You may have noticed a gap while I was busy with other things and I wasn't here responding and interacting. It happens. If you want a realtime experience, I think blitz games are going and you could always try live mafia. (Town of Salem on STEAM is decent but not great).


P-edit2: I actually got a strong townread on ABR for his reaction. I believe he misunderstood the passive that keeps me from having a party just on day one, and his reaction to my post was super town oriented. I just wish he had let folks respond and not made it super obvious that it was laid out there as bait. I am not yet good enough to think up endless ways to put out posts that will pull in responses to help me make reads, without it being super transparent, so when I think up a decent one it kills me how often people like squash it.

[Drixx]

I'm getting so worked up because Titus literally ruins games with her bullshit bandwagons on town and town block shenanigans. She has no fucking clue what she's doing until Day 3. Honestly she shouldn't even have a vote, she should just sheep players around until there are enough flips and interactions for her skills to shine. You literally should not be doing anything that Titus is doing.

I pretty regularly self-evaluate my own play. After the game I'll be happy to show you when I started using posts that were dual purpose and intended to be non obvious posts that would draw responses for me to read. Like ... assuming you are talking to me ... I'm not emulating Titus here. I was really hoping to get the FA hydra (the one you're onto) to respond to me, as well as the Cucumbers.

I'll figure another angle to come with at some point. For whatever reason, I always second guess things and spend forever working on a post until I feel like it's subtle enough to do what I want. And it totally got you to bite and you bit hard in a townie fashion. Since I find you hard to read, that is good fruit from the post; I just wish I had gotten more.

[Drixx]

By the way ... I still want responses to my post that ABR shit on (and in the process earned my first town read that is more than a lean). You guys need to realize that there's a game within a game going on here; it's totally awesome to get scum on day one, and in particular I feel like we really want that to happen given what has happened in this game. That said ... getting scum on day one basically

pales in comparison

to ensuring that town is reaping the benefits of adventuring and spark rewards all game.

So like ... I am trying to focus on both. Please respond to my setup spec post about initiative and the MC, those who haven't. Even knowing it's meant to garner reads won't necessarily stop someone from responding in a way that outs them as scum later in the game (or makes them obviously town).

Play short and long term at the same time. That's all I'm trying to say.

[Drixx]

*

You realize that post was a gigantic bait post right? Why do people blow up my gambits?

I was basically just assuming you were town up until now but this is a bad post.

I'm sorry if it was a bad post. I made it in frustration. Some people on this site can't take a breath without putting out subtle posts that help them read people. I find it stupidly difficult to craft a subtle post (I was born and raised in Maine, and Mainiacs are pretty blunt generally so that is probably all you need to know about why), so I was just irritated that it got blown up so quickly.

[Drixx]

Come on Drixx, help us out here, give us a Rylai vote.

I'm reading. I'm stingy with my vote as you know. I'm like 90% of the way to agreeing with you. I'm trying to make sense of a few of the posts from that hydra.

@Max - What did you think of Yimmy's entrance?

This.

Other scumreads besides who I've stated? Unsure. I want to talk to Skybird, not enough there for me to read her yet. Off the top of my head... Yimmy showed up with a lot of null and ??? reads after apparently ISOing for three hours, but I'm waiting on the latter half of their list

Think of it as 'bleh' to 'not good'.

By the way ... I still want responses to my post that ABR shit on (and in the process earned my first town read that is more than a lean). You guys need to realize that there's a game within a game going on here; it's totally awesome to get scum on day one, and in particular I feel like we really want that to happen given what has happened in this game. That said ... getting scum on day one basically

pales in comparison

to ensuring that town is reaping the benefits of adventuring and spark rewards all game.

So like ... I am trying to focus on both. Please respond to my setup spec post about initiative and the MC, those who haven't. Even knowing it's meant to garner reads won't necessarily stop someone from responding in a way that outs them as scum later in the game (or makes them obviously town).

Play short and long term at the same time. That's all I'm trying to say.

Drixx, I think you're probably town. I don't really think you're likely to be voted as MC today. This might change, I'm not sure. I agree that the adventure rewards are hella and that we want to pile them onto a townblock, though. There doesn't seem to be too much to respond to, besides the region choice and whether or not you should be MC today.

CoolDog: Lynching scum is always 100% priority, but doing it on D1 is hard. I think we can multitask enough to scumhunt as well as talk about the MC vote.

Well if people think about the setup and come to the same conclusion I did, I make the absolute most sense for MC vote today. When we get someone who is super obvtown and whom we want to protect, I will want to move the MC to them so they are protected, and hopefully whomever separates from the pack is willing to put in the effort to lead the town and work with a town block. What I know about the adventure rewards and sparking goes beyond what is known to the game at large at the moment, and all I can say is we definitely want to keep it in our hands. I'm advocating myself simply because on day one there is so little concrete evidence, and I think that logically it makes sense to posit me as town for a lot of reasons, but I outlined the most important ones in the prior post.

To be super clear though ... whatever I gain from adventuring tonight isn't going to be game breaking. We'll want someone we can trust is town to get MC so we protect them and they can play out the town game without fear of being taken out (short of really bad party choices, but that's why I'm pushing for us to agree the MC should be helping form a town block and then tapping it for advice and bringing in the most townie people to adventure and get rewards). Basically everyone in the town is likely to have an actual cool permanent role (like the one we unfortunately saw flip), whereas whatever I might gain tonight won't bring my utility up to that level.

There are like 3 or 4 players I'm watching to see if the obvtown, and if that happens, I'll shift and push for them to be voted the next MC. If we don't get someone like that today; however, I think the safest choice is me for tomorrow, and I would at this point snag DGB and ABR as my first two choices for the party. I think anyone paying attention to the game knows why and would agree. As for the other half ... too many people seem too hesitant to me atm.

yeah, sure, whatever, lynching scum is far more important than night phase stuff imho. It really is distracting from the thread though to reads heaps of useless speculation.

Lynching scum is always the ultimate goal. This game has cool mechanics that provide progressively stronger benefits. I really don't want scum to end up in control of the adventuring and rewards, especially since the game balance got shifted already against us. Even if all my speculation does is get people thinking on their own about how to accomplish this, then I've done half of what I wanted to do with it.

[Drixx]

*

You realize that post was a gigantic bait post right? Why do people blow up my gambits?

I was basically just assuming you were town up until now but this is a bad post.

I'm sorry if it was a bad post. I made it in frustration. Some people on this site can't take a breath without putting out subtle posts that help them read people. I find it stupidly difficult to craft a subtle post (I was born and raised in Maine, and Mainiacs are pretty blunt generally so that is probably all you need to know about why), so I was just irritated that it got blown up so quickly.

It was a bad post because if you were making a bait post you shouldn't be surprised if people attack you.

But whatever. No sense worrying about you until tomorow anyway, just noting that for future reference.

Was it clear before I said so that the underlying intent of that post was to provoke reactions to help me read people? It's still doing that in the form of the follow on conversation. Day one conversations are so useless on day one but so fertile and productive later on for finding scum. I'm content.

[Drixx]

er reads won't necessarily stop someone from responding in a way that outs them as scum later in the game (or makes them obviously town).

Drixx, I think you're town here. I think you're very obvtown. And I'll gladly vote you for MC once I feel we're far enough into the Day to do that. You can go to Wakiki like they said earlier, that's fine. But please stay with us and concentrate on finding and voting scum here. We do not have time to waste or reasons to let scum slide by posting about mechanics and other bullshit. Focus.

You said you suspected Rylai, back it up with a vote.

I have time to focus on this game now. I'm going to read through and see what I see on that slot. If I think they are scum or there's enough doubt, I'll gladly vote, if only to get pressure up and get a better read.

[Drixx]

I think I saw something town in FA's posts.

VOTE: Klingon

Sheep me FA.

I'm your huckelberry. I really don't like what I'm seeing out of KC's slot. This is giving me flashbacks of playing with KC when KC was scum. I'm not generally a believer in playing based upon what happened in past games ... but I can't find anything in the FA hydra's ISO that's actually scummy. Just a lot of defensiveness.

[Drixx]

Sunday night DnD is done. Wasn't super fun. Lots of pages to read.

[Drixx]

Okay. I read the pages. I think I'll go with:

VOTE: DGB

MC: Drixx

Despite assertions to the contrary, I did already lay out what I planned to do. Caretake the spot until we get someone who is as obviously townie as possible to take over the reigns. I would bring my strongest town reads into the party, pending a town block forming that would then be the best way to handle that mechanically. Remember, the MC doesn't necessarily take the rewards. Also, if my best town reads from today were to be bad and if the party had a couple scum in it and they killed me, it's not a gigantic utility loss, plus me dying would confirm scum in party, so there's that.


It would be super cool to leave the shouting matches behind and sort out the mechanical stuff and then actually push people and try and find scum. I realize I posted about the mechanics yesterday, and while I feel like it's worth taking the time to try and keep the whole set of mechanics in town's hands ... it won't mean anything if we go adventuring and get a bunch of extra stuff but lose because we mislynch every day. Need a bit more balance.

[Drixx]

They link to a different topic. That's more than likely a scumslip.

Could be their hydra private topic.

That actually happens a lot I think. I can recall trying to link to posts in a game before and having my links get screwed up and go elsewhere, although I don't know what triggers it. If you just quote that post and look at the raw text, I think it just has the [ post = ] tags, which should link to the post number within the thread; however, there's something broken with that particular tag. That should be pretty easy to check, by the way, guys. Like ... why are you guys debating whether that's a slip or not? You can just look. Here... I'll open a new window and do it myself while I'm making this post. Be right back (I do enjoy amusing myself).

Yep ... all throughout the post you guys are talking about, the formatting of the links are as follows:

Code: Select all

 In post [post=#7551629]35[/post] 

So, let's see if that topic number in the post= portion of the code is put in by the person or if the forum generates it. I'm going to attempt to link to post #1200 just by doing post=#1200 and see if it adds a topic number, and I'll also try to do it using the button too. My suspicion is that it's going to, since I'm looking at quoted text right now, and it has added in the topic and post number as separate things to link back to the people I'm quoting. When in doubt, science the problem. If it turns out you have to manually try to link to a PT ... then they got some explaining to do, because even though hydras get PTs, the post in question was asserting that it was responding to posts in

this thread

.

Testing: Post #1200
Testing Again: 1200 <---- hitting the button just brought up [ post ] and [ / post ] tags with the cursor between them, so I put in a post number.

So ... after previewing the results, if I do the following code, it goes to some other topic, although it appears to be a very old topic, and thus probably does not explain the situation:

Code: Select all

Testing: [post=#1200]Post #1200[/post]

If you hover over the post button, that's actually the syntax it tells you to use, but that's clearly broken.

The second result appears to work, and that was using the code as follows:

Code: Select all

 [post]1200[/post] 

However ... if you quote this post and look, you will see that the forum system parsed that and added in a topic number. Still... it added in the topic number for

this thread

, not a PT somewhere.

Conclusion? They got some explaining to do.

Hey I'm just glad you're town. I'd like to take a quick moment to mention I'm on an 8 game winning streak rampage Yeahhhhh!

I have won 21 out of the last 27 town games I have played! I am even counting the cupcake 1 altho that game was bullshit.

hi cerb!

tbh I don't even remember what your exact response was I just felt like it was very hedgy. but I bet i remember what your responses are on this page tho!

"hedgey"

"hedgey"

You know, that's a decent way of describing the way I answered your question(s)(which was, btw, you asking what my thoughts were on your reads), but...it's a markedly different way of describing it than the way Drixx and Titus described it. They were both shocked by me taking firm stances on things....firm stances which you call..."hedgey"

So, umm, which is it guys? Was I taking surprisingly firm stances, or was i being "hedgey"?

-Cerb

You were taking more firm stances than you usually do. Period. Stop playing defense and get on offense. You're weirding me out.

[Drixx]

I think if you want people to give you rings, you need to obvtown. Simple as that. If I end up with a ring and you earn a town read you're welcome to it.

I see no point in going to a literal ghost town, so I'm going to

Adventure: BACCARAT

[Drixx]

I see no point in going to a literal ghost town, so I'm going to Adventure: BACCARAT

NO
you shouldn't

~Rylai

Take this siriously please.

Go somewhere else

~Rylai

Can you explain why you feel this way? I was looking for a reaction with that, and you bit

hard

. Explain?

I think if you want people to give you rings, you need to obvtown. Simple as that. If I end up with a ring and you earn a town read you're welcome to it.

I see no point in going to a literal ghost town, so I'm going to

Adventure: BACCARAT

If you get a ring and you don't give it to me, you are preventing the town fron getting a power role of some type, for absolutly no gain. It would be like roleblocking a claimed power role for the entire rest of the game.

If you really do that, you had better be able to explain yourself, because that's super anti town behavior.

You got things mixed up my friend. I think you need to re-read my post. Anyone who hands items that could provide power to someone just because the person asks should be lynched on the spot, imo. If someone earns a town read, that's a whole different story.


@Cerb - There's a difference between being on the defensive and being scummy. I didn't find the posts scummy when I re-read. When ABR was asking for support, my memory didn't like the posts. When I re-read them, I couldn't really find anything that was objectively scummy.

[Drixx]

peditx2: omg Yosarian, shut up. Does Drixx know you're town? No? Okay, so let's change what you said to what it actually means.

If you don't give rings to Yosarian, you are preventing a slot in this game of unknown alignment from gaining powers.

Yes. And unless Drixx thinks I'm scum (as in, Drixx is activly trying to lynch me right there) that would be an incredibly scummy think for Drixx to do. Roleblocking a claimed power role you're not sure of is obviously bad for the town. You do get that, right?

Giving potential scum extra powers is bad.

You do get that, right?

[Drixx]

Can you explain why you feel this way? I was looking for a reaction with that, and you bit hard. Explain?

you remember our claim? this adventure NOW is not in town interest. WE can tell that with our role pm (referring back to the part we have something related to MC thing and adventure stuff)

~Rylai

Just because I didn't find anything objectively scummy in your ISO doesn't mean I trust you. You have the same status in my eyes as Yosarian2 right now. He's demanding that people just hand him power, and whinging that if we don't, we're being anti-town, as if the mod has showed up in the thread and told us he's town or something.


Oh ... and this is why I said lurking is particularly bad in this game. It's particularly difficult to get accurate reads on lurkers.


P-Edit: It would be absurdly bad to assume all "main characters" are town. Of course, given how many featured characters exist in the game, there's no way for that to be possible in the first place. That's what's irritating about the posts R&L made about knowing certain characters are town. That's like something you say and let people claim. Counterclaims are 1-for-1 trades, and I'm pretty sure if we trade 1-for-1, we come out ahead every time.

[Drixx]

peditx2: omg Yosarian, shut up. Does Drixx know you're town? No? Okay, so let's change what you said to what it actually means.

If you don't give rings to Yosarian, you are preventing a slot in this game of unknown alignment from gaining powers.

Yes. And unless Drixx thinks I'm scum (as in, Drixx is activly trying to lynch me right there) that would be an incredibly scummy think for Drixx to do. Roleblocking a claimed power role you're not sure of is obviously bad for the town. You do get that, right?

Giving potential scum extra powers is bad.

You do get that, right?

If someone claims a power role, you dont roleblock them. If you're sure they're scum, you lynch them. If you're unsure, you let them use their power and see what they do with it to get a better read on them.

It is never the right move to deny someone their role power just because you aren't sure.

But hey, do what you want. Just understand that if you don't give it me and come back tommorow with some "oh i just wasn't sure" bs, I'm going to have to assume you are scum.

Erm... seriously? You can claim anything you want. That doesn't make it true. I'm pretty sure you can use rings ... but what does that have to do with your alignment? Why should you automatically get them just because you claim being able to use them? That's completely nonsensical.

[Drixx]

pedit: Yosarian, you are creating a parallel where none exists. It's not like roleblocking you. It's like inventing to you. He wouldn't invent a power to someone he was uncertain of. He would only invent it to someone whose alignment he was very certain of.

That analogy does not work, because I'm the only one who can use them. It's an investment that costs nothing.

Cool. If nobody else claims being able to use rings, then it seems like as long as you don't scum yourself up, then you should get them. I don't believe you claimed exclusive use of rings prior to this post. If you did, I misread, and my bad. I doubt I'll get any rings, for whatever that's worth.

[Drixx]

If he's the only one who can use rings,

and he doesn't scum up his slot

, then there's no reason not to see what he does, yeah? That strikes me as a pretty good way to firm up a read in one direction or the other, in fact.

@R&L - Don't go all silent now. You claimed you knew the flavor names of some of town. There's zero reason to keep that to yourself. The people you name can claim or not claim. Like I said before, if we get two people claiming to be one of the characters you say is town, then we have a pretty good situation. We can test

you

, and worst case with conflicting claims is a 1-for-1 trade, which I'm pretty sure is in our favor.

[Drixx]

I think unless the claimed people start getting scum read, then giving them what they ask for is more potential reward than risk, but I think it would be poor design for only town or only scum to be able to use stuff. Something to think about.


@Cerb - Wow you just keep on trying to put words in my mouth. You just earned my first scum lean read. Congratulations.

@Lowkey - So your assertion is that R&L is scum and will give fake names, and other scum will both claim a name, and we lynch one and then the other and R&L get town read? I'm not sure that logically follows. And I think it's up to the people who have those characters if/when they claim. My point is that I don't think there's any real up side to R&L keeping that info private. What if R&L get night killed and that info is redacted from their role card flip? The names themselves won't help scum in the least just by being said.

[Drixx]

I've figured out how the post tags get screwed up in the way that happened to Drunken Pirates. When you press the "Post" button while editing/composing a post, even though it doesn't show you, the forum assigns the thread you are in to that tag. So if you copy that text out into the game thread, it's not going to post the right thread link unless you do the post tags by hand instead of using the button. That's the only way I could get the wrong thread to show up using the [ post ] Post# [ / post ] approach.


P-Edit: You asserted that I stated I would just blindly invent unknown powers to someone I null read. I never said anything remotely resembling that.

[Drixx]

There's a whole lot of other context from the ongoing discussion. For example, I pointed out that lurkers and low content people are not good for this particular situation. The people claiming exclusive usage have an obligation to be engaged and (imo) to earn some trust. I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to nail down here.

[Drixx]

you do forgive me ?

I'm kind of feel dizzy here

arrgh

Yah, we're good here. Cheer up homie

@Lowkey - So your assertion is that R&L is scum and will give fake names, and other scum will both claim a name, and we lynch one and then the other and R&L get town read? I'm not sure that logically follows. And I think it's up to the people who have those characters if/when they claim. My point is that I don't think there's any real up side to R&L keeping that info private. What if R&L get night killed and that info is redacted from their role card flip? The names themselves won't help scum in the least just by being said.

If RL was scum, yes. That would be fucking genius and we'd lose the game quite literally at D1 and I'd totally do that as a gambit if I was scum here. I'm saying make the names private no matter what but perhaps don't have the named people claim just yet. I agree with you there. RL is town though so the information is good too. I don't think we should be using this info to verify their alignment, especially after what just happened. They are town.

I'm saying that putting the names out there is the optimal play. The people who have those characters can claim if and when they see fit. And you seem to have missed my point ... if they gave the names and suddenly we had two people claim the same name and we just happened to get scum with the first one we strung up, you wouldn't be at all suspicious that it might be a setup? I know I would.

[Drixx]

I don't like who I'm sharing vote space with.

Unvote

I still have a problem with DGB's low number of posts and unwarranted attacks on me. I still think there needs to be some explanation. I don't at all have any sort of town read on ZZZX.

[Drixx]

pedit: Yosarian, you are creating a parallel where none exists. It's not like roleblocking you. It's like inventing to you. He wouldn't invent a power to someone he was uncertain of. He would only invent it to someone whose alignment he was very certain of.

That analogy does not work, because I'm the only one who can use them. It's an investment that costs nothing.

Cool. If nobody else claims being able to use rings, then it seems like as long as you don't scum yourself up, then you should get them. I don't believe you claimed exclusive use of rings prior to this post. If you did, I misread, and my bad. I doubt I'll get any rings, for whatever that's worth.

yoyo has been screaming for items (rings) for quite some time now drixx!

You think? Did he claim he was the only one who could use them prior to that post? I didn't catch it if he did.

[Drixx]

By the way ... productive couple pages. Thinking through things instead of making a decision on the spot is way more optimal.


P-Edit: We're saying the same thing about the names, in different ways, Cerb. Obviously if R&L claim they have the name of confirmed town players, they should share those names. Whether those people are town or not depends a lot on P&R.

P-Edit2: Interesting point Titus. I suppose that's probably a good point. I'll think about it rather than accept it on the spot if that's okay with you? And thanks for clarifying what was obvious. I was just not going to reward Cerb with a response for being sarcastic with me.

[Drixx]

Drixx if we claim the names you will reconsider that adventure?

or is it already begun?

~Rylai

Adventure begins at night. I'll be happy to reconsider.

[Drixx]

Like ... why are you guys debating whether that's a slip or not?

Because we aren't as smart as you and don't know how to differentiate between whether the post lead back to a scum topic or a hydra topic?
And after reading your post I still don't. lol

Directly. You can't. There is no technological way to verify our alignment. I made the PT in question. I made the post in question. I had three threads up at the time of drafting it. About midway through I got tired of putting [post] around everything.

~Titus

We've got a winner folks. Every link in that post is broken, so there is no "about midway through I got tired of putting [post] around everything", because the "post" button was used to generate the tag every time, or else that post would actually link to this thread at some point. There seems no reason to lie about this, so the question is why lie?


@Errant - I guess I'll go to Luminous and lift your post restriction. Seems like an actual tangible benefit vs. possibly nothing due to lack of party.

[Drixx]

ABR has a tendency to react harshly at first, and then come back and be rational later. This is not a pattern that is news to anyone who has played with him before. It's pretty much ingrained in how I view him and I don't think it's at all alignment indicative. I look at the things he says when he's not making his initial harsh reaction to figure him out. It might help if you viewed him through that lens Titus. Curious to see what you think. Don't ignore this.

There's a couple of really strange dynamics going on in this game right now, and I would kind of like to see some of the noise resolved. I think some of this is being fueled by old grudges and such, and that is throwing a lot of confusion into things. Every time I refresh I find myself spending a stupid amount of time reading my notes on this game and trying to work out all the interactions. Not enough reliable data points is obviously problem #1 on day one, but seriously ... some of this noise between various pairings has got to go. It's starting to feel like an intentional strategy at this point.

More thoughts later. It's 5am and I need to go put the coffee on.

[Drixx]

I'm obviously removing your post restriction tonight EP. Like ... there's literally no reason for me to do anything else.

[Drixx]

Oh ... Errant, CC, DP and probably ABR or Sensei if I had to decide right now.

[Drixx]

Take note of the really weak reasons to throw shade on me being thrown around. Great stuff to come back to later. Make a note folks.

[Drixx]

Ok, this is going to nag me and nag me. I know Mollie wanted me to slow down but....

Drixx why did you ignore out response after making a big deal about us not ignoring you in 1614.

*hides*

~Titus

I probably missed it. I had a busy afternoon. Point me there?

[Drixx]

Hey. While you are all busy shitting on my play (which I self admit is poor on day one) ... maybe you could like go against the rules for how long time players on this site treat newer join dates by default and like ... I dunno ... give me some tips on how to expand my game so that I'm at least marginally better than useless on day one?

[Drixx]

ABR has a tendency to react harshly at first, and then come back and be rational later. This is not a pattern that is news to anyone who has played with him before. It's pretty much ingrained in how I view him and I don't think it's at all alignment indicative. I look at the things he says when he's not making his initial harsh reaction to figure him out. It might help if you viewed him through that lens Titus. Curious to see what you think. Don't ignore this.

There's a couple of really strange dynamics going on in this game right now, and I would kind of like to see some of the noise resolved. I think some of this is being fueled by old grudges and such, and that is throwing a lot of confusion into things. Every time I refresh I find myself spending a stupid amount of time reading my notes on this game and trying to work out all the interactions. Not enough reliable data points is obviously problem #1 on day one, but seriously ... some of this noise between various pairings has got to go. It's starting to feel like an intentional strategy at this point.

More thoughts later. It's 5am and I need to go put the coffee on.

While I disagree on the "be rational later bit", there is absolutely a harshness missing from ABR's game. He's not being aggressive with us at all. I know that seems contradictory with what I just said, but I am talking intellectually aggressive. ABR usually tries to smack me over the head and say 2 plus 2 equals 4 and why can't you see this. Vote this person. Here it's all "Titus protect me from big bad Mollie" and you've been wrong before so why not here?

I do agree that it's a strategy to get ABR townread and I see the pieces in that direction laying out there. The question is why? That's how I feel anyway. CoolDog, Klingoncelt, myself, and I think a few others have seen the weird interactions this game. CoolDog said it best when he asked, how is ABR the leading MC when there are other, less dramatic and more obvtown choices available?

Nothing in this game is based on personal grudges. If it were, you would find me alone on an island with these feelings being chocked up to nothing more than Titusonian MOONLOGIC (not the crumbing kind). My townreads, almost universally, see there's something rotten in ABR's company, even if they townread ABR himself.

Personal grudges is the argument ABR is using to avoid addressing my finer points. It's one of those things scum or derp town repeat because they want it to be true. I used this tactic to great effect when I was scum with Shiro in Nethersprite's game, particularly on the last day. I kept repeating that Shiro was confirmed town because she stopped the scum kill. There was another reason, but I did not want anyone looking.

Are your dynamics issues the same ones I am seeing? If not, which interactions are you seeing that are funny?

~Titus

There are actually several interactions that are bothering me. I can't seem to make any logical sense out of them. You and ABR is just one. If you're really not picking up on some of the other ones, I can try and eke out some time to do a quote wall and show you what's screwing with me.

[Drixx]

Yosarian: Earlier you said you found it suspect that 1) I questioned giving abilities to unknown quantities, and 2) I refused to offer up reads without consulting with my other head. With regards to 1, I maintain that your comparison of my words to "roleblocking someone you're not scumreading"(phrasing mine, I did not double check what he said exactly, but that was the intent of his phrasing) is deceptive, and such willful repetition of something which is clearly false strikes me as an attempt to create a negative consensus on my slot without having to outright attack us.

It's not at all deceptive.

In a logical sense, there is absolutly zero difference between "not giving person X a power" and "taking a power away from person X". They are exactally the same thing, in every single way.

There is a common logical error people make, called the "endowment effect" or "divestiture aversion", that makes people much more averse to "losing something they have" then "not gaining something they don't have", even in situations where those two things are functionally identical. However, that is a complete illusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect

And I feel like you were deliberately playing on that logical fallacy in order to try to manipulate Draxx in order to act in a way that would have hurt the town if he'd fallen for it. That was anti-town behavior on your part.

You're muddying the issue with the "other head" thing. Doesn't have anything to do with that. If you were trying to convince Draxx to not give me rings *because you think I'm scum*, that would make more sense to me. But it didn't look like that. You were just trying to use bad logic and emotional manipulation to make him make a bad choice, even though you weren't even trying to attack me at all, in any way, and never had at any point this game.

I'm sorry, but your behavior there was both anti-town and scummy. I thought you were town-ish earlier, but now you're all the way back to "null". The only reason that you're not "scummy" is because I haven't figured out if you were doing it on purpose or not. However, you were arguing REALLY hard there for someone with no apparent stake in the matter.

Giving power to an unknown, regardless of whether or not said power is usable by anyone else, is stupid.

"Not giving a one shot power to person X" is EXACT ALLY THE SAME as "roleblocking person X who has claimed a power role". In mechanical terms, there is NO difference, at all. Either way, the result is "player X would have been able to take action Y on night Z, and now he can not".

I apologize in advance for responding to something you directed at someone else. And thanks for the knowledge bomb and everything but ... you're falling into a fallacy of your own here. It is actually quite desirable to deny extra abilities to scum. It is quite desirable to "essentially roleblock" scum.

Please note: I haven't said you're scum. I simply haven't gotten a clean town read off of you yet. Also, this post I quoted from you makes me realize what it must feel like for most people to deal with me.

[Drixx]

Hey. While you are all busy shitting on my play (which I self admit is poor on day one) ... maybe you could like go against the rules for how long time players on this site treat newer join dates by default and like ... I dunno ... give me some tips on how to expand my game so that I'm at least marginally better than useless on day one?

Not trying to offend you, Drixx.

If it wasn't for your role, I would find it very suspicious that you haven't spent a lot of time "scumhunting". You've been doing a lot of talking about setup, you talked about the modkills, you've talked about a lot of different things, but we haven't seen you spending a lot of time actually going through, trying to figure out who is town or scum. Questioning people, or attacking people to try to get a response, or making lists and using process of elimination, or putting pressure on people, or trying to pick out scumtells, ect. Whatever method works for you is fine, or whatever combination of methods. The attacks you have made (against DGB earlier, against CoolDog here) feel like OMGUS, like you're only attacking them because they're attacking you.

If you are town, then you really need to try to keep focused on actually finding and then lynching scum. There's a lot of other stuff going on, especially in a theme game like this, and talking about all that is fine as well, but you still have to scumhunt, because that's the only way towns actually win. If you don't do that, then it looks like you're a scum who's trying to stay active but doesn't want to actually do anything that might make people mad.

I'm actually really hard to offend if you're not going over the top batshit crazy at me, and I appreciate the feedback. Umm... there's not really any way to prove this without a bit of a humblebrag, so if you check out my hydra with Cerberus (Reasonably Rational) in the Varsoon Steven Universe game, you should find a link to our hydra PT where we dumped the logs of our slack conversations for the game. You can gain a lot of insight to the sorts of notes I take and things I pay attention to that I might not necessarily say anything about, especially early in the game.

I feel like day one is a ton of speculation because I can't really ever objectively convince myself someone is scum, outside of the outliers where I can snag someone with a subtle gambit or someone slips hard or something. Generally I come into my strength in the early midgame, and I do that by looking for scum narratives. There's a lot that falls under that umbrella, but I can expand on what I mean if that doesn't just automatically make sense to you.

I approach the game like a logic puzzle and that's my biggest strength and weakness simultaneously. It's practically useless early, but if one takes good notes and is willing to put in the time to verify things ... it's super good at separating obvious town from the rest and then PoE from there to find the scum narrative slips. I would quite frankly like to learn some ways to be better in the early game and to make it less time intensive to be good as town. It is usually a very non-trivial amount of time it takes to comb through a game in the midgame or later and find the scum narrative inconsistencies. Then there's pushing them and getting other people to see it. I mean ... if you take a look at the Steven Universe game, Cerb and I nailed the scum team to the wall (although I occasionally still get taunted because I was making a post that a track result to a person who didn't die and hadn't claimed anything bad happened to them wasn't actually evidence someone was scum ... and while I was making that post the person the scum visited told us that something bad had happened

AND

the scumbutt self-hammered: I wasn't defending the player but trying to point out that we didn't actually have evidence and people shouldn't go off half cocked... but still).

Anyway ... it took considerable effort, but we nailed them hard to the wall, had made the logical case for why a near universal scum read was almost certainly town (we were right and in the process of testing how the player in question responded to something to test our conclusion), and we had given a lynch order starting with the claimed miller (gotta kill them before end game unfortunately... and the guy even had agreed earlier he had to go). So what happens? The miller quickhammers the person we had logically cleared while we were in the midst of testing to confirm, and we got sidetracked by one bad assumption and adjusted our kill order. One bad move by someone who didn't believe us, and the town went from a 100% win probability to not a 100% win probability, and eventually lost in LYLO (due to said bad assumption).

So yeah ... erm ... it's easy to say scumhunt but I literally don't know how to do anything on day one other than ask questions, get people talking and take notes to use later. I occasionally think of something that seems good and subtle and have had sporadic success getting people to slip up early game, but it's by no means something I can just do on command. I really rather wish I could actually. The few occasions where I've absolutely nailed scum hardcore early have been quite enjoyable.

Varsoon has a funny story about this one time when I literally told the game exactly what the scum team was doing, what gambit they were running, who they were ... as they were doing it. And the town lynched me and I was spot on exactly right. That has unfortunately been the exception rather than the rule to date. Seriously asking for pointers. If you want to wait till after the game, that's cool.

I apologize in advance for responding to something you directed at someone else. And thanks for the knowledge bomb and everything but ... you're falling into a fallacy of your own here. It is actually quite desirable to deny extra abilities to scum. It is quite desirable to "essentially roleblock" scum.

It is desirable to roleblock scum.

The point I was making, though, is that if you think that someone who is claiming a town power role is scummy enough to roleblock, instead of letting them use their ability and using that to test their claim, you should also be trying to lynch that person. If you don't think someone is scummy enough to attack and to try to lynch, then you're generally better off letting them use their ability and see what happens.

But what if they're in between? I already said that I thought giving someone one ability (so long as I can be fairly sure it's not super dangerous) at a time and seeing how they actually use it would help. But even then, clever scum who is being town read could use the powers leashed until the time is right to spring the trap. I don't think there's an excluded middle ground here. I think there's "That guy is town. I'm giving him stuff." and there's "That guy is scum, I'm pushing him to be lynched right freaking now" and then there's "I'm not sure".

[Drixx]

Since we're explaining: I claimed because erm... it would have been absurd for me not to do so. I started out as the MC; everyone was going to want to know why. I'm basically a VT unless I gain powers along the way. I don't expect to accomplish more tonight than getting rid of EP's post restriction, which seems like actually pretty decent utility from what is basically a placeholder MC who is otherwise VT.

[Drixx]

Guys I have a miserable flu, I am a bit behind, but I do insist on ABR MC.

It's obviously a good idea plus I don't want to be forced to read another 1000-word Drixx essay about himself.

What's with the attacking me every single post? I shit in your corn flakes and not remember or something?

[Drixx]

If I'm not MC, I will die, and town will lose one of their most powerful assets. As simple as that.

I really wish you hadn't said this. Your play read as super town until you made this unnecessary claim (I only grabbed one of the posts, but you made several elaborations). I really tried to head this off earlier in the game by pointing out that only I was safe from the NK tonight. I went out of my way to make sure everyone had paid attention, and you even said yourself fairly recently that I'm the only person who cannot die today or tonight, so you

knew

.

Unless there's a hidden mechanic and you gain protection as the day ends by being voted MC, then if your claim is true you will be dead. Even a scum team comprised of the least intelligent human beings to ever live wouldn't WiFoM this. You are way in the lead for MC votes and you've claimed that you will absolutely hand scum to the game on a deadline. You being alive tomorrow is you being scum. Period. You can't even argue that they might WiFoM because it would take a team full of people holding the most gigantic idiot balls ever to read your claim and then leave you alive to become Lynch and NK immune.

I screwed up the quote tags in the last post; Mod, feel free to delete that one if you want.

I feel like day one is a ton of speculation because I can't really ever objectively convince myself someone is scum, outside of the outliers where I can snag someone with a subtle gambit or someone slips hard or something.

Let me tell you a secret: almost nobody (who's being honest with themselves) is almost ever all that confident about their day 1 scum reads. There are exceptions, but they're rare.

Usually, on day 1, you're looking for something you can work with. Maybe someone makes a weak scum tell (which could be anything that scum are slightly more likely to do then town are). Maybe someone else is just less townie then you'd like to see. Or, if all else fails, I just make a list, figure out who is town, and then go after someone else.

Once you find something like that, you put together an attack against them and see how they react. Your main goal is to A: gather information, see how they react, see who attacks them and defends them, and B: move the town closer to lynching someone. Hopefully someone more likely then random to be scum, but really, even a random lynch day 1 is better then no lynch, and towns often do worse then average on day 1.

Or, alternately, if someone else makes an attack you like, use your vote to increase pressure there.

Basically, the thing is, if nothing happens in a day 1 scumgame, then nothing happens. If no one is attacked or no one feels any pressure, then no one has to do anything, and that makes it impossible to tell the difference between town and scum. But if you start doing things, then things start happening; put someone under pressure and their reactions become a lot more useful in analyzing them.

I approach the game like a logic puzzle and that's my biggest strength and weakness simultaneously. It's practically useless early, but if one takes good notes and is willing to put in the time to verify things ... it's super good at separating obvious town from the rest and then PoE from there to find the scum narrative slips.

That's a great tool, and I like to do it to, but to be a really good mafia player you have to have more then one tool in your toolbox, because like you say that one doesn't always work. Try out some other things, try out some other playstyles. You can always switch gears back later in the game, and if anything, you're likely to develop more information that way you can use later.

But what if they're in between? I already said that I thought giving someone one ability (so long as I can be fairly sure it's not super dangerous) at a time and seeing how they actually use it would help. But even then, clever scum who is being town read could use the powers leashed until the time is right to spring the trap. I don't think there's an excluded middle ground here. I think there's "That guy is town. I'm giving him stuff." and there's "That guy is scum, I'm pushing him to be lynched right freaking now" and then there's "I'm not sure".

Roleblocking a town power role usually hurts the town more then roleblocking a scum power role helps the town, in general. Stopping a single town action from a key town power role can really screw over the town. Scum power roles, on the other hand, are less likely to be game-changing events, just by the nature of the game.

Fair point on the last. As to the rest, what do you think I'm doing today? I've come out of the gate since the start of the game and pushed people to think about the central mechanic of this game and take positions. I wanted to make sure that the MC/Party mechanic was well discussed and thought through, and I also wanted to force scum to have to engage if they wanted any hope of getting anything out of it. You can call that setup spec or not scum hunting if you like, but I suspect it will bear fruit later in the game. There are almost certainly things that were said today regarding the mechanics of MC/Party discussion that I've been driving that will be pieces of the puzzle later.

I also do sorts on day one, but a sort is only useful inasmuch as I can put people who appear town off to the side to be considered later and focus my early attentions on people who are more scummy looking.

I spent the day thinking hard about who I would bring if I was sworn in as the second MC.

Who are my allies, my foes, which ones can be trusted and which ones have an ulterior motive. There were a lot of players that came close to making the cut.

So without any further ado, I present you:

My new party

Spoiler: Second-in-Command

Titus

I'm convinced that Titus is town. Her logic for suspecting me makes complete sense from her point of view, her push on Max mirrors my own, she has been out in the cold looking in for the majority of the game, and doesn't plan on changing her opinions to fit in. Should I die, there's no one I would prefer succeeding me than Titus. As Titus reads these words, she will be more convinced that I'm scum, thinking I'm trying to bribe her with frivolities because I won't die and so this is nothing but a token gesture. She's wrong. The risks of my dying are real. Should the worst befall me, similar to Kylo Ren, I trust Titus to finish what I started.

Spoiler: The Big Guy

Drixx

Drixx has a self-proclaimed powerless role, and is almost universally trusted. He gets wordy and likes to overthink to the point that our collective minds trail off when he writes one his walls. Not the leader type, but Drixx is a great candidate for sparking abilities. As he gains new skills, he will become more useful to town.

Spoiler: The Point Man

Cooldog

I like him for town and so does most of this town. He's brash, he's aggressive, he doesn't like you, and most of all, unlike me, he's expendable. Good man to bring aboard this first mission.

Spoiler: The Smart Guy

Errant

His list ranking everyone from town to scum makes the most sense out of everyone in the game. He's been earnest in his scumhunting. He's town. He's an asset, and I know this for having played with him before, and believe me I tried to get him to sign up for this game many times. One of the most underrated players currently on the site. He's going to talk soon, and when he does, scum will cower in their boots.

I like the effort of this post. The problem is that you are either scum or you made a gigantic mistake claiming the way you did. Already addressed above. Scum can't play the WiFoM card because if you get elected MC we can't lynch you, so if you are town your claim has made you the NK tonight. That's pretty crappy, imo.

[Drixx]

Sensei: scum gambit, its a thing they do. More importantly, all ABR is promising is delivering a scum to us.. Do you really want what will end up being a bus to guarantee his towniness for the rest of the game? He's not making difficult promises for scum to keep.
And no, I'm town.

ABRs play does not make sense as town. I feel like Cerb agrees but he hasn't replied to my post so I really have no idea.

Flum and Sky: I really doubt its that simple that one of them mistakenly claimed an MC. Scum doing that and not having the role to back it up is just a glaring mistake, and I don't like that names are coming out now. It's still only D1 and half the playerlist has hinted at their roles, or in this case, Flum has claimed his name. It's not ideal.

Pedit: what I'm saying, Drixx. He doesn't make sense. If he's town, which I doubt after this, he's going to be killed tonight, and if he's scum, then we won't be able to lynch him until D3 when he buses someone and by then I doubt anyone will listen. And also he'll have gained whatever ability being MC gives him and I doubt it will be good for us.

The solution is not to vote him for MC. Even if you don't Lynch him today, just give the MC votes to other players. We have plenty of towny players who could be MC.

Yeah. That's why I asked people to think about whether scum would be given additional initiative above and beyond what they already start with in a game to begin with, as regards to me starting out as the MC without a party. The thing I kept waiting for someone to point out (which nobody ever did that I caught); scum can always NK the MC choice if it's not a consecutive choice, so it's not only important that the primary choice be someone the town trusts, but we also have to ensure the second place person is also someone we're good with. If someone already said this, please point me to it, because it's like the most painfully obvious thing that should have occurred to any town player thinking about the mechanics and I don't recall

anyone

even mentioning it.

Itlepip replaces ArcAngel9.

Someone is replacing into a scum slot.

Shit. Corn Flakes. Answer the question.

[Drixx]

I like the effort of this post. The problem is that you are either scum or you made a gigantic mistake claiming the way you did. Already addressed above. Scum can't play the WiFoM card because if you get elected MC we can't lynch you, so if you are town your claim has made you the NK tonight. That's pretty crappy, imo.

I wouldn't poke at this. ABR is probably town, and he almost certainly knows what he's doing. I have no idea what he's doing, but I'm ok with that for now. Anyway, one way or another, this situation should resolve itself in a few days; most likely either he'll be dead, or he'll give us a scum, or something else equally spectacular will happen. If it doesn't, we can worry about it then.

ABR is capable of fooling good players. Let's say he doesn't die and he hands us scum on the morning of day 3. How do we discern that from a scum gambit? See the problem?

[Drixx]

@Lowkey Don't bother. ABR won't keep up any of his deals. He said he'd give me the party slot and he shows no intention of doing so. He's so blatantly anti-town at this point it's not even funny.

I disagree. I think his posts are oozing town. I'm just not sure if I can trust that he's not faking it. That claim that he made was completely unnecessary. He was running away with votes for being MC, so why make that series of posts? There was literally no reason for it. Like ... there's the super obvious idea that he

wants

to draw the NK tonight, but only a scum team full of people holding idiot balls would leave him alive if he's town after he made the claim he did. He put himself on a clock to deliver scum, and one doesn't do that lightly.

It feels more like a mistake to me than a gambit, but ABR is tricksie.

[Drixx]

The best case scenario for town is that ABR is a PGO or something like that. But even if he's town, and even if that claim is a trap for scum, the scum team would

still

have to all be holding the idiot ball at the same time to decide not to NK him tonight, just because if he actually does have a role ability that lets him deliver scum by being the MC, they can never touch him once the immunity swaps to him. The claim literally forces the NK to him tonight from anything other than a completely incompetent scum team. It might be a brilliant play and I'm just skeptical because I lack the necessary info.

I'm going to just watch how it plays out. I suggest we have a clear choice for back up MC if we want to put it on ABR, so that if he's killed we don't end up handing that shit to scum by mistake.

I've run gambits to draw fire and inflate my role utility before so I'm just going to shut up now and watch for a bit. I can't find anything in his ISO that helps me discern what the hell he's doing, so I am not qualified to say more than I have.

[Drixx]

Firstly:

Stop speculating about a cult mechanic. Cult = alignment change = bastard. This was not advertised as a bastard game; ergo, there is no cult.

Scrap that yea it was speculations by Diamond.

~Lina

No. I clearly remember EP indicating that he was rouge. That's why I'm currently set to adventure tonight to recruit him which supposedly would lift his post restriction.

I like the effort of this post. The problem is that you are either scum or you made a gigantic mistake claiming the way you did. Already addressed above. Scum can't play the WiFoM card because if you get elected MC we can't lynch you, so if you are town your claim has made you the NK tonight. That's pretty crappy, imo.

I wouldn't poke at this. ABR is probably town, and he almost certainly knows what he's doing. I have no idea what he's doing, but I'm ok with that for now. Anyway, one way or another, this situation should resolve itself in a few days; most likely either he'll be dead, or he'll give us a scum, or something else equally spectacular will happen. If it doesn't, we can worry about it then.

ABR is capable of fooling good players. Let's say he doesn't die and he hands us scum on the morning of day 3. How do we discern that from a scum gambit? See the problem?

That's a problem to worry about then. When we do, we'll already have one dead scum, and probably by that point a detailed discription from Albert of how his role works and how he used it to catch that scum or whatever. Likely a lot of other information as well.

So in that scenario, we both have a dead scum and a much better chance to figure out ABR's alignment for certain. That's a win-win.

What we don't want to do is demand a lot of information from ABR right now, because the scum are going to already have a tricky choice deciding tonight if they try to kill him or not, and I don't want to make that any easier for them. So let's table this topic and come back to it in a few days.

Yeah ... did you miss the part in my later post where I said I don't have enough information to really say anything more about it?

[Drixx]

Can we vote Gale please? I refuse to believe someone could be so completely out of touch with the state of things. The attack on me

REEKS

of scum not realizing they can't lynch me and looking for some reason to say I'm scummy. If Gale had actually read my ISO, Gale would know where I'm adventuring and why. Gale would also have seen that I had a very deliberate reason for how I approached today, since I shared it just recently as I feel the day is probably close to finishing. Every post by Gale so far is pinging the scumdar hard.

[Drixx]

Absolutely not. Any scum replacing in would IMMEDIATELY be briefed by their team in daychat. Or make excuses while they catch up if there's no daychat. There is absolutely no reason for Gale to come in blindly and make herself a target.

Except for what you just said. "Too scummy to be scum" is a strategy that seems popular lately.

[Drixx]

My strongest scum read is Klingon. I understand being sick, quite intimately, so it has nothing to do with that at all. It's that the posts with content don't make any sense whatsoever. If we're as a group lynching only from that pool, I would be on Klingon before the others. There are actually redeeming things to what Max and Skybird are saying, and Skybird is playing exactly the same way she did that allowed to turn an inherited awful claim into a scum win in SMITE (i.e. - She's saying things that could get her easily pushed to lynch, but if you read her ISO there's not anything that remotely resembles any fabrication there).

[Drixx]

Link me to the game in question I want to read it for myself. And why are you still supporting yourself as MC after everything we've talked about?

Because you have it locked up and there's not any real point. If you get night killed, MC stays with me, as per Varsoon's clarification. His clarification also made it clear that it would be stupidly hard to change MCs after you, if the scum team is happy with you as MC. They need only kill anyone who gets voted in over you and you revert back to being MC.

[Drixx]

Link me to the game in question I want to read it for myself.

No. You really don't want to read SMITE. I promise you don't. I'll give you the night while I sleep to think about it. That thread is like 12,000 posts long or some shit, went on for like six or seven months, and resulted in at least one permanent site ban. The first two days literally cause eye bleeding.

It was a really good game, and super well balanced for how crazy role madness it was... but the thread was a bit of a shitstorm for a LONG time.

[Drixx]

For one, even if ABR is scum he has promised us scum by day 3.
Now ABR, are you willing to convince me by saying you 100% guarantee this?
As honestly I see no loss if so, we either get scum on a platter or you were lying and we lynch you. Simple.
I also don't doubt for a second you are getting copped tonight either. Your alignment should be pretty clear pretty soon.
Come on people,
What's the problem?

The problem is that the MC is immune to lynch and NK until LYLO. Further, if the elected MC for a day gets Night Killed (before immunity happens), MC reverts to the prior MC.

So ... if ABR is scum and he gets MC, he could literally say "Fooled you idiots. I'm scum. You can't do shit about it!" and be immune to any retribution as long as he never lets anyone with a non-factional killing power into his group.

[Drixx]

For one, even if ABR is scum he has promised us scum by day 3.
Now ABR, are you willing to convince me by saying you 100% guarantee this?
As honestly I see no loss if so, we either get scum on a platter or you were lying and we lynch you. Simple.
I also don't doubt for a second you are getting copped tonight either. Your alignment should be pretty clear pretty soon.
Come on people,
What's the problem?

The problem is that the MC is immune to lynch and NK until LYLO. Further, if the elected MC for a day gets Night Killed (before immunity happens), MC reverts to the prior MC.

So ... if ABR is scum and he gets MC, he could literally say "Fooled you idiots. I'm scum. You can't do shit about it!" and be immune to any retribution as long as he never lets anyone with a non-factional killing power into his group.

Wrong, they are only immune while MC

Yep. And once he gets MC, it doesn't matter if we vote a new one in ... that person can just be NKd and it reverts back to the prior MC. Once scum get it, they need only be able to get a kill through to retain it.

[Drixx]

@ABR - You have to admit that objectively there's a little bit of internal contradiction in your posting today. It could certainly be because you didn't want to share certain details, but the timing of that claim was so bad that by itself it makes you look like scum. I think you totally shot yourself in the foot with that claim.

I said earlier (and I maintain this unless I learn something that changes it) that it might be best to keep me MC into the first party selection. I would be totally down with having you in that party so you can actually explain the things you don't want to say in the thread in a more controlled environment, assuming support continues to erode on you.

I'm personally torn. Your posting has generally read genuine. That said, you're viewed as a good player and respected by a lot of people for a reason. I don't actually

know

you are town or not town, and I lack sufficient objective data to try and make sense of the way you've approached the day. If you were just about anyone else in the player list, that claim you made when you basically had MC locked up would have resulted in me pushing a wagon on you. Only the fact that I can easily imagine potential cases where a town you might take that action, and it would be foolish to just throw away the utility you provide if you are being honest, has kept me from doing so.

As I said before: I lack the necessary information to say more than that.

[Drixx]

Look, its not fucking possible for scum to strongarm the MC. Varsoon has explicitly said he has balanced it around the mechanic, guaranteeing the town a counter to this. This whole "ABR may be eternal MC is false", as well as all conspiracy based around it. I'm willing to trust varsoons skill as a mod.

You really need to read what Varsoon posted in his updated info about the MC due to questions people had asked. If not for that clarification, I suspect my own vote would be on ABR, because after all, he made a claim that put him on a clock. I figured worst case he gets himself caught out on the gambit later and we vote someone else MC and then lynch him. Except we

CANNOT

do that.

As long as the scum team can get the night kill done on whomever is voted in as MC to replace a current MC, the current MC simply continues as MC. (For example, if we were to elect say "Bob" to be MC, but the scumbutts kill him tonight, then I would be the MC when toMorrow comes because that's how the rules work. THAT is why once ABR has MC, he may very well hold it for the rest of the game. Combine that with the unnecessary claim and you may understand why people are split at the moment about it).

[Drixx]

Look, its not fucking possible for scum to strongarm the MC. Varsoon has explicitly said he has balanced it around the mechanic, guaranteeing the town a counter to this. This whole "ABR may be eternal MC is false", as well as all conspiracy based around it. I'm willing to trust varsoons skill as a mod.

You really need to read what Varsoon posted in his updated info about the MC due to questions people had asked. If not for that clarification, I suspect my own vote would be on ABR, because after all, he made a claim that put him on a clock. I figured worst case he gets himself caught out on the gambit later and we vote someone else MC and then lynch him. Except we

CANNOT

do that.

As long as the scum team can get the night kill done on whomever is voted in as MC to replace a current MC, the current MC simply continues as MC. (For example, if we were to elect say "Bob" to be MC, but the scumbutts kill him tonight, then I would be the MC when toMorrow comes because that's how the rules work. THAT is why once ABR has MC, he may very well hold it for the rest of the game. Combine that with the unnecessary claim and you may understand why people are split at the moment about it).

Drixx, how does this work if we elect you as MC for n3 and you are in ABR's party for n2?

Being in the party has nothing to do with it. Check Varsoon's ISO; he made a very detailed post about how it works.

The only reason I've not thrown my support behind ABR is that his claim came when he was a shoo in and was not at all necessary. He would easily have had MC if he hadn't made that claim. I've been reading him over and over trying to decide how to proceed. Note that I haven't been actively seeking MC votes. If I conclude I am willing to trust ABR more than I am afraid he's making a bold scum gambit, I'll throw my vote his way and ask the folks voting me to do the same.

If I'm not sure we can trust him, I'll say so and ask to stay on one extra day. ABR has a solid point that I am vanilla other than that I started as MC, so we

WILL

want to move the MC to someone who we are sure we can trust and who will need protecting way more than myself. We've seen a flip, and even if Spifflop was at the high end of the power curve, I have a suspicion that basically everyone has considerably more role utility than I do, especially given the game this is based upon.

[Drixx]

It's a weakness in your character

Let's keep it clean man. No need to attack the person behind the keys mate. I've never met a forum mafia player who is flawless; have you?

[Drixx]

It's a weakness in your character

Let's keep it clean man. No need to attack the person behind the keys mate. I've never met a forum mafia player who is flawless; have you?

Well, while I don't know why he felt the need to say the obvious , but that's basically what I had been saying myself.

Well fair enough then. If you want to say for yourself that you have a character flaw, that's your business. We all have our flaws as people; it's simply impolite and out of place to tell someone else their flaws in a forum mafia game. If I were to list mine, it would be the largest mafia post I've ever made, and I've had posts referred to as "The Great Wall of Drixx" before so ... you know.

[Drixx]

Who the hell are "BIT" and "FIRE"

In another game Varsoon gave one of the Scums a secret extra vote, called Dragon, though Town somehow thought it was a Dog.

Varsoon letting Scum have two extra votes? I doubt it. I think one is Town's and one is Scum's.

It was called "Light" and yes, we mistook it for a dog for awhile.

[Drixx]

MC: Drixx

Gale, you are sounding town in your recent posts. Just jump into the game and don't worry so much about catching up at this point. Once we go to night, you can read through everything.

Mollie, best wishes and I hope everything turns out alright. *hugs*

I hope that I am nk'd, would help us a lot

Why are you voting for Drixx as MC? and what happened to Mollie?

There's really compelling role reasons to keep me as MC in the short term. Hopefully we have a solid enough block of people for the party that someone else can say privately what they can do and we can try and swap to protecting a higher utility role. At this point I will only gain small utility from sparking abilities and such, as I started with nothing but being MC without a party on day one.

I'd really like ABR to address my post where I talked about whether I would back his request or not. I'm pretty sure if he can convince me, then I can ask the folks voting me to swap over to him. So far I think he just kind of ignored me asking him to respond. I've gotten super mixed signals out of him so far. I could make a solid argument that he's town from some posts, scum from others, and even third party makes sense in a couple of places. It's really frustrating to me, because I assume we have protective roles but we can't assume they'll be around forever, and getting a higher utility MC in place that we can have a decently high degree of certainty is town is something that's optimally done as soon as possible.


@all - I don't think Klingon is scum. I wouldn't bet anything that I'm right because it's a "gut feeling" and I don't believe in those. I can't find anything that explains it so I'm left simply saying I don't think she's scum. Nothing in the "case" against her is really all that scummy to me. It feels like a bad compromise day 1 lynch to me.

[Drixx]

A ton of people in this game have played with me before. Gale Wing should go look at Steven Universe and read the hydra PT for Reasonably Rational. What I post in the game and what notes I make for myself are vastly different things. What I want out of day one is as much of people interacting (and taking positions!) as possible. Day one is a crapshoot; one needs only look through completed games to see that town under performs the odds on lynching scum as a general rule. What I get out of day one comes later when scum have to adjust to the game state and things they could never anticipate on day one mean they have to alter their narrative.

I've had a purpose with every post I've made this day phase.

And yes, I want ABR to convince me that he's actually town, because while I would be fine staying as the MC and trying to put out another SU like game but without the benefit of having Cerberus to talk things through with ... I'm basically a VT. The only thing I can gain by adventuring I can gain by being in the party, so I don't

need

the protection, and in fact given I lack any abilities inherently beyond starting as the MC, if I were to draw night fire, that would be added utility. It would be

significantly better

to have someone who we can be as sure as possible is town in the MC spot as soon as possible.

The problems with ABR are:

1.) There's a pattern of political sleaziness in his posts. He literally feels like someone running for high office and making more promises than he can keep. This dovetails into:
2.) That claim was so untimely and unnecessary. For serious.
3.) He doesn't seem to actually pay attention to what's going on with the discussion. He pops in and tries to see if he can push a wagon, then drops out of sight. It's almost like selective lurking.

As I said ... I was town reading him earlier in the day, but the last few real life days he has really eroded my confidence.

Mechanically it's sub-optimal to just default to MC on me all game. We've seen a town role card because of the mod kill. I don't have anything at all like that. We want to protect someone who does. Simple as that. You want to know why I don't campaign for it GWS? I would rather find someone I trust is town and back them.

[Drixx]

EbWoP: It's implied but I want to be explicit: We want someone we can be sure is town AND actually is worth using the immunity on. You don't put the game's immunity mechanic on a VT unless you literally can't manage to get a consensus town read on someone else.

[Drixx]

For one, even if ABR is scum he has promised us scum by day 3.
Now ABR, are you willing to convince me by saying you 100% guarantee this?
As honestly I see no loss if so, we either get scum on a platter or you were lying and we lynch you. Simple.
I also don't doubt for a second you are getting copped tonight either. Your alignment should be pretty clear pretty soon.
Come on people,
What's the problem?

My paranoia make me suspicious that he might give us one of his partners. But the point that I can't understand is whats the problem?!

if he is or he isn't scum we will get one scum in day 3.

~Rylai

What's the problem? Can you please go look at the sparkable abilities? That's just what we

know

can be had by the adventuring party. The one where multiple people can be lynched on the same day in particular worries me. ABR could have some convoluted claim and hand us multiple scum but still wreck us, if he's scum.

Please read Varsoon's comments. One of them really stuck out to me like a sore thumb: In the video game this is based upon, you can be almost out of it and then your party synergizes together and you go from nearly dead to win. He didn't say that for no reason.

Please folks ... pay attention. Varsoon puts absurd amounts of time into making his themed games have flavor and mechanics that fit the theme. Ignore the special mechanics and implications of flavor at your peril.

[Drixx]

I feel like Gale is town wrong as opposed to scum wrong though.

Errant isn't rogue because I claimed rogue.

Hey, ABR. This is a post that pings me.

It's the word choice. "Errant cannot be rogue because I

claimed

Rogue." I feel town should be saying something like "Errant isn't a Rogue. I am." Or "People thought Errant was Rogue, but This was fixed I am."

The focus on what he claimed is weird. Who cares what He claimed? I don't have mod confirmation what he claimed as true.

Can we lynch this guy? Why or why not?

That same language really jumped out at me. I thought I had quoted someone else defending it. I want everyone to keep this in mind; this looks like a possible scum slip. I will go back and look and find who defended it and make sure I note that also. Even if Itlepip didn't slip ... that really quick defense of him really bothered me as well.

[Drixx]

MP - You know that defending yourself is just going to feed confirmation bias if you are innocent, so why are you on the defensive. Go find scum and stop trying to defend yourself against things that are subjective and that have been rehashed already. You're literally beating a dead horse.

[Drixx]

I'd like to see what Sensei says. I'm tentatively willing to back that wagon.

[Drixx]

@CoolDog - Quit throwing shade. While I've begun to reconsider my stance that a vote is not a all purpose bludgeoning tool of first resort, I still generally only vote when I think someone is scum. If I want to pressure someone I question them or make a post that I want them to respond to while trying to be subtle enough that they respond without realizing I want the response to help me sort them. That's just me. It's NAI, at least as far as I'm concerned. For a long time I didn't even place RVS votes but people get a stick up their arse if you don't vote in RVS and I saw first hand the value of a good RVS wagon to get the day moving.

Now ... Sensei has responded and when it's not 2am I'll read that response and if it's not satisfactory I'll vote him and add my own thoughts (above and beyond the case the Cucumbers made) why I was suspicious of the slot. That's how I play. Adjust or you won't ever properly read me in other games where I'm not almost certainly town because of a game mechanic.

yep itelpip dropped the amished tell!

What is "the amished tell"? I'm nt familiar with the term.

It took me some asking to find out myself when I first joined the site a little over a year ago. Apparently there was a player named "Amished" and he replaced into games a lot (which, btw, is a really high utility public service for the site ... be a hero and replace into games!) and early on he replaced into scum slots, in particular, way way way above the average. He would comment on the poor play or mistakes of the prior player on the slot when he was scum, or try and defend or explain things the prior player said or did.

Obviously, when you replace into a slot you cannot possibly know what the person(s) prior to you were thinking or what motivated them to say or do things, so trying to defend or even really comment accurately on it is just a fool's errand. It became a reliable scum tell for awhile, and then got forgotten. It has begun to be a reliable tell again now that most people don't know what it is. I've caught a few scum by catching them with that kind of behavior recently. It makes really good psychological sense too: Scum have to create a narrative so when you replace into a narrative already in progress but have no idea where the prior player was going with it, your only choices are to try and keep it up or to somehow get yourself out of it and do your own thing.

Once I learned what the Amished tell was, I decided to never comment on prior actions of a slot I replace into, regardless of alignment. I replace in and play to win con. If someone asks about the prior player(s) on my slot, I respond that I can't possibly speak with any certainty to anything they did and tell the person to evaluate and ask me questions about my own play.

Some of the more long term site veterans are welcome to correct any part of this that may be not quite spot on. It took me some asking around and some sleuthing to figure out what the Amished tell is myself.

[Drixx]

What is it with you guys and thinking that asking questions = attacking? How does that make any sense at all.

I actually agree with you 100% here. Mafia is a game of information. You don't get it without questioning and pushing people to interact. I've noticed a trend lately of people acting like questioning them is out of bounds or something. That needs to just go away. That said ... asking questions is NAI. I have other reasons that you have pinged me. I need to read your full response to the Cucumbers case though, when I'm not dog tired. I'll get you some questions in the morning, and you can show people that questioning != attacking by responding to them

And why does my attacking of itlepip - if that's what you genuinely think was happening. Automatically make you think that I had a townread on skybird?

I don't necessarily think that a lot. People are too quick to assume that a new wagon springing up is necessarily a counter to whatever wagon was previously going. That's not necessarily the case, and in fact it seems to be going away as a scum tactic on this site. I see less and less scum counterwagoning and more and more impatient town jumping from person to person.

[Drixx]

If I'm somehow MC tomorrow (people vote me or ABR keeps the vote but gets killed), I am currently thinking:

DP
R&L
CC
Yos or EP

[Drixx]

Mod, is there the potential to miss items, besides failing on your adventure? Like, hypothetically speaking, would there be a way to miss a way to remove a hypothetical post restriction that would hypothetically be removed by adventuring to a hypothetical region? Hypothetically, of course

If you visit a region, you receive its rewards.
Regions can only be visited once.
So, no, you really can't miss anything.

I believe someone has made a claim that this isn't true. It's not relevant for tonight since I chose to go lift EP's post restriction as soon as it became known that I could do so. But I clearly recall someone telling me not to go to a certain place or else we would lose a reward. Mod just contradicted that claim. Someone has some explaining to do I think.

Also is it me or is drixx posting... a little less frequently?

It's not just you. I have DnD sessions on Sunday and Tuesday evenings and my wife's Birthday was Monday. I've still got another 10 pages to catch up on, but had enough stuff in multi-quote to put some thoughts out there that will hopefully be responded to when I get caught up to "present". Oh ... and I'm also modding a game on site for the first time.

Open 623 if anyone is interested; need a replacement; {end shameless plug}

@ zzthing will you plz vote drixx for MC?

Sure. I dont mind

MC:Drixx

actually I think it wld be wiser to have sensai as MC since he is conftown and he cld use the MC protection.

sensai how do you feel about that?

Sensai won't get the protection until morning. I assume we have some kind of protective, but given the claimed power level of Sensai and the flip we saw, I expect scum probably have a way to bypass protection, at least on a limited basis, and given what Sensai can do, it seems like it would border on miraculous for them not to use it to get rid of his claimed ability.

Not a bad idea actually.

CALLING ALL TOWN:

PLZ MOVE YOUR VOTES TO SENSEI HE IS CONFIRMED TOWN PLZ TY

He's not actually confirmed town. He claimed a flavor name that someone else says is confirmed town. Anyone who went to the wiki and read up should have known the probably names that R&P had, which makes this not quite equivalent to a one-way masonry (what Titus equated it to). I'm glad that this topic came up though because Sensai is actually interacting and such now. It's unfortunate he felt the need to claim.

DiamondSentinel ~ GOOD LYNCH!
Klingoncelt ~ OKAY LYNCH!
ErrantParabola ~ ???
The Cool Cucumbers (wgeurts & cerberus v666) ~ BAD LYNCH
Drunken Pirates (Titus & Pirate Mollie) ~ AN OKAY LYNCH
Gale Wing Srock

Yimmy

~ ???

Drixx ~ Sadly, a BAD LYNCH (Pr remover basically forced by town, will wagon to death if doesn't)

Zulfy

Wickedestjr

~ OKAY LYNCH
Rylai and Lina (Shiro & Frozen Angel) ~ *sigh*
Skybird ~ An OKAY LYNCH
Albert B. Rampage ~ A BAD LYNCH
CooLDoG
DrippingGoofball ~ AN OKAY LYNCH
MaxwellPuckett ~ AN EHHH LYNCH
Yosarian2 ~ ???
Lowkey (Lowell & Hinduragi) ~ BAD LYNCH
Fluminator ~ A LYNCH FOR NOSTALGIC PEOPLE
Sensei ~ A BAD LYNCH
ZZZX ~ AN OKAY LYNCH
Itlepip

ArcAngel9

[/spoiler][/size]

~ A GOOD LYNCH

there you go, I made it easy for you guys.

This is a really bad post. I'll just address the part about myself, and the rest of you I'm sure will see the rest. I've emphasized the part that's egregiously bad and here's why:

1.) Why is it sad that I'm a bad lynch? I see CooLDoG planting seeds for lynches here; apparently he missed the part where the game setup puts me pretty firmly in the prob/conf town pile.
2.) I wasn't forced by anyone to do anything. As soon as EP showed up with the post restriction, I said I would go to lift it. Nobody forced me to it ... I immediately volunteered. Why the misrepresentation?
3.) The last bit is really odd. I've already confirmed I'm going to where EP gave us the thumbs up would remove his post restriction. The only thing that could stop me is being blocked somehow. That looks a lot like setting up a mislynch on me tomorrow. All team scum need is a way to stop me successfully lifting the post restriction, and CooLDoG has already lined me up to be wagoned.

Could he be any more scummier?

I will be voting CooLDoG as long as it's not the hammer as soon as I catch up. If it would be the hammer vote, consider this my intent to hammer

<--- as of page 152

@RaL, Then we can work on removing Flum and CoolDog for today until we can sit down and talk about it.

Please treat TCC like I am treating you. I see Cerb's pots are frustrating on the Sensei thing, but I have been where he has been. Respectfully disagree. Bating him upside the head will just cause him to dig in more and possibly convince him you and Sensei are scum.

Oh and ignore CoolDog. He's scum.

~Titus

I agree CooLDoG is scum. Can we lynch him now please?

I think ABR is like obvscum. I realize that may not t have been clear.

~Titus

That makes 2 that nobody can see.

ABR and CoolDoG are so obviously scum it's not even funny...

But I'm sure we can figure this out some other time.

Yea I fell like he is town as well, I am just saying that we might be 1 personal less if MC was to die

~Lina

That may not necessarily be a bad thing. I don't believe the party has to be completely full for any particular reason, and the rewards get voted on. One less member is one less spot for a potential scum to slip in. Keeping me in the party makes sense since logically I'm town (I think most people have arrived at that conclusion finally, yes?). There are some obvious reasons to keep me in the party and risk having one less party member. I think everyone in the game is smart enough to figure them out.

You know what, I'm not gonna claim.

If you vote Sensei MC, he will die, it will revert to Drixx, and I lose the chance to deliver a scum by day 3.

If you vote me for MC, I'll WIFOM my way out of a kill, Sensei might die anyway, and I will get you scum on day 3.

Holy Crap this is a bad post. You're going to WiFoM your way out of a kill? Really? As if your unnecessary claim wasn't bad enough, you felt the need to make

THIS

post? It would take a scum team collectively holding the largest idiot ball in existence for you not to draw fire tonight. At this point I'm just assuming you are a PGO or some other thing which will be unpleasant for scum; however, given the power level of the flipped town slot and the claim by Sensai, do you really think scum in this game have no way to kill you? That seems like a very foolish position to posit.

VOTE: CooLDoG

I like this vote. We need more of them.

Sensei, if you're voted MC, can you confirm that you will not bring Drixx with you on the party? We lose a spot when you die, as I explained. Who are the party members you want to go? (without you)

I'm not sure yet man. But yah I won't bring drixx.

See above argument. I'm pretty sure having someone you can be really confident is town in the spot is optimal. Playing outguess the scumteam isn't a great idea. Plus, there may be something in the adventure that could give me actual utility and given that I'm as close to being confirmed town as one can be without an IC post by the mod or a cop clear, that makes me a safe bring to the party (plus there are things I'd like to say to a smaller group of people than the entire game; if you don't know me well enough to know that I do take good notes and will have cogent useful things to say, please seriously go look at the Reasonably Rational hydra PT from Steven Universe. I am fairly sure Cerberus and I put way more time into our games than just about anyone else).

Pragmatically speaking, having me along potentially results in me sparking abilities or being voted by the party to be given a reward of some type. That can be kept secret if we manage to keep an all town party, or there are obviously other ways to get strong utility out of that kind of eventuality.

Excluding me because Sensai

might

get killed seems like it hasn't been well thought out. It does raise a question in my mind though:

@Varsoon - If I understand correctly, the adventuring group can lose people if they get night killed during the night, and they cannot be replaced. Is this correct? Additionally, can a less than full party result in the loss of potential rewards? Can a less than full party result in negative outcomes that would not happen with a full party?

Going to finish catching up now.

[Drixx]

Time for me to claim, I'm the Town Doctor. Dr. Nukasan. I am Bulletproof on Odd Nights, I can protect on Even Nights. My role is to protect MC on even nights (2,4,6) and prevent scum from killing them every night. If I reach a certain location to gain a certain Rune ability, I can protect every night. I'm what stops scum from eliminating the voted MC.

Yeah this is bullshit. If this were true your earlier claim would have been something like "I can keep myself from dying tonight only and if you vote me MC I am a doctor and will be protected for the rest of the game to keep important folks alive" or some more subtle thing. You would not have outright lied. You want MC, that's clear to see. You lied to us to try and get it, and that should

permanently

disqualify you from getting it, imo.

@Everyone Else - Told you he was bullshit with that claim earlier and just trying to sucker us into putting MC on him which will then become hard to take away.

The reason why Varsoon feels that the MC mechanic is balanced is because half the time I can protect the MC from scum. Good job outing me guys.

Could ABR be an scummier? He had no reason to make the earlier lie claim that he had a role that guaranteed scum caught, but did so. He had no need to make this new claim. He lied once so why should we believe this claim? Dude is scum and fishing to try and get town PRs to out themselves.

What doesn't match up is why you want a double voter to be MC over the town doctor.

He's exactly the kind of role we want to protect. The ability for town to organize and lynch multiple people is absurdly strong, especially with investigative results later in the game. I only hope there's some way we can keep him alive and stop you and your scumbuddies from killing him.

My strategy was to lie to become MC, then claim doctor, and draw N1 kill. Then I could protect all the confirmed towns.

This is literally not possible. You wouldn't "become" the MC until the day was over. The MC vote never "hammers". You can't even think through your bullshit lie fake claims very well it seems.

Or it has no relation?

you said if you reach a certain location you can heal all the nights. that was your intention?

~Rylai

Yes. And no relation except that I can't be killed the night that I'm vulnerable

Yes. Let's believe the liar. Brilliant idea.

You lose your only doctor N2

MC: ABR

Wgeurts ... post in hydra, and go talk to Cerb and let him explain to you why it's a logically terrible idea to put ABR in any position to gain power given what he's done today. The context of it makes it even worse.

#All_Character_Claims

R&L : Emilia
Sensei : Annie
Flumm : Asulus
Sky : Blue
Itle : Roge
DP : T260G
ABR : Dr. Nukasan

I'm believing ABR claim. it make sense with his actions today. I need to talk with shiro.

~Rylai

Please tell me you aren't so naive.

Klingon I think you're not invested at all in this game, and that's fine. I'm glad to be gone from this game soon if CC is telling the truth. When you see my flip, realize how stuck in confirmation bias Titus is. I will use this game as an example of why pirate is a bad player and Titus should never be listened to Day 1.

Speaking of being stubborn and stuck in confirmation bias ... do I need to link you to the game where Titus properly discerned that Jeanne11 and Elbirn were both town and then managed to use her role ability to synergize with theirs to pull off a gambit which resulted in her listing the complete scum team as her complete scum team (She had Cerb+Me and Wguerts masonry on that list also, but masons can give scum vibes). She properly town read probably the site's most difficult current player to read, as well as another notoriously difficult to read player, and had the entire scum team worked out. On day one.

So you're objectively wrong. But keep on with your superiority complex and conf bias. Or the pretense of it, since what you've done with claims today (both unnecessary, both probably lies) makes it seem probable that you are scum.

Not Voting (5):

Drixx, ErrantParabola, Rylai and Lina, The Cool Cucumbers, Lowkey

UNFUCKING ACCEPTABLE

I vote when I want to. If you want me to vote, you can talk to me like a mature adult. As it happens, I'll be voting at the end of this post.

I've never had a mod tell me specifically "there's no doc" before. I guess it's something the scum team could competently infer anyway. Especially given how much shit we've outed already.
ABR has sorta set himself up to either die or become increasingly obvious if he's full of shit as the game goes on, though.

Yay. Someone actually realizes that ABR is full of shit and his play makes no sense at all from a town perspective. I was beginning to think I'd wandered into some alternate universe or something.

ohh yeah, can I berate cc a little more for that awful use of self-meta which is a trust tell? Not chill bro, not chill.

I thought I quoted the other post also, but fishing for a mod kill is super scummy. Even if I wasn't already wanting to lynch him, this shit where he took obvious town players and tried to fish for a mod kill has no town motive whatsoever.

Also, sensei, umm. Shouldn't you be *not* voting if you want to double vote everyone simultaneously to cause two lynches?

Too many people in this game that park on Not Voting/Vanity wagons for 2 weeks to pull that off today unfortunately.
I guess we can still try but it's kinda w/e at this point.
3 days is a lot of time, though, I guess.

We have plenty of time. I'd love to watch CooLDoG and ABR both dance the hangman's jig.

I'm not into the CoolDog wagon, sorry.

Am I the only one who finds these little short posts with nothing of substance increasingly suspect?

@Varsoon - If I understand correctly, the adventuring group can lose people if they get night killed during the night, and they cannot be replaced. Is this correct? Additionally, can a less than full party result in the loss of potential rewards? Can a less than full party result in negative outcomes that would not happen with a full party?

This is the sequence of events:
Day X - Players vote for a Main Character.
Night X - This voted Main Character submits 4 players to be his party.
Day X+1 - The voted-in Main Character gains MC immunities the surviving members of the party are made public info. They are given a day/night chat neighborhood and the MC decides where to adventure at night. The Adventure Region is made public info after the lynch.
Night X+1 - The MC and his Party all spark a technique of their choice (privately) and the rewards for Adventuring are revealed to the party.
Day X+2 - The rewards from adventuring and sparked techniques are granted to the players who received them. These rewards/techniques may now be used.

If a party member is lynched or killed at any point beyond Day X, they can not be replaced.
If a party is less than 5 members, rewards are still gained from Adventuring.
There are no negative outcomes for having less than 5 party members. The only arguable negative aspect is if a region grants a single reward (rather than a reward for the whole party), the party must still vote for who receives the reward, with the MC's vote counting as 2 votes. In this way, it would be more difficult for town to keep a scum MC from voting themselves to receive a singular reward.

Thank you very much. That's what I suspected.

Also, umm, shit. I did not realize every member of the party would always spark techniques. I thought it would be more limited. That's fucking scary if we screw this up.

-Cerb

You didn't already realize this? It has been covered repeatedly today.


VOTE: CooLDoG

[Drixx]

we are not pushing for a abr lynch it ain't gonna happen we want kewldog

pick up

but sensei needs to be the MC and abr not in the party

If Sensai is telling the truth (and why wouldn't he given what he's saying is actually verifiable unlike the lies of ABR), we can have our cake and eat it too. Let's get both CooLDoG and ABR to L-2 and let Sensai fire his shot off. Given how dangerous Sensai is to a scum team if they get investigated or caught some other way, he's pretty much dead tonight if the scum team has strongman in any way and/or town cannot protect him. Might as well get the use of him while we have him.

For the record:

Sensai is exactly the kind of role I was asking to be the placeholder MC for. Would have been super nice to be able to know we could get him protected either till the end (when presumably his vote ability shuts off so as not to screw with endgame) or until we had an even better role to protect.

Obviously that's predicated on Sensai telling the truth about who he is and R&L telling the truth about having mod confirmed info that his character is town. We don't

know

that to be 100% true, but the lack of counterclaim is weak evidence, and the ability is confirmable.

[Drixx]

Doh. Sorry for misspelling your name Sensei. I work with too many languages. I'll try not and butcher it again.

[Drixx]

We can take them both out. We are unlikely to have Sensei after today so now is the time to use it. That power may become available again later, but it will require the MC and Party to be all trusted town and to somehow keep scum from killing whomever sparks into that set of abilities. I expect the scum team to actively kill off party members, so it's possible (and perhaps even probable) that we will have only today to use it.

[Drixx]

Explain to me why not

Because he is town. His lying alone doesn't make him scum. His reaction to CC makes no sesne, His posting frequancy makes no sense, The amount of aggro and attention he has gathered makes no sense.

~Lina

Btw guys

140 more posts for the record guys guys let's do this.

You guys need to re-assess things. Put away emotion for this and just evaluate logically. If you really believe he's town, then I need you to explain the town motivation for the following things:

1.) Claiming that he needed to be MC to use an ability that he guaranteed would give us scum on the morning of day 3, when he was clearly going to be voted MC and there was no real opposition to it. (Explain the town motivation for both the timing of his claim and why he lied).

2.) Please explain the town motivation he has for saying that people should be in the party so they can reveal info to a smaller group of people, and then excluding them from the party he was saying he would select while he was "campaigning" to be elected MC.

3.) Please explain how on earth you even believe his newest claim.

4.) Please explain the contradiction in his claim where he says he wants to protect the MC but also wants to be the MC.


I'm sure there's more, but I trust I've made my point?

[Drixx]

Hmmm. Maybe he's 3p with a "get voted as MC" win con/ a "go on an adventure in x" win con? Explains everything, including why he discouraged visiting some location earlier today.

-Cerb

Ewwww... this is a horrible post. Why are you providing a liar with a possible avenue to try and escape from the hole he dug himself? This looks a lot like a soft defense of ABR.

It would be really cool to lynch two scum today. We can use jedi-mind voodoo to make them bus somehow.
Possibly by getting a nice big wagon on cooldog and then shifting it over to another scum - and going back n forth like that for a while until it's blatantly obvious who's holding a vote back because they're scum who don't want to participate in a double kill.

I'm down for it if we can get people engaged enough to do it with the time we have.

You did not just say abr is town for having a lot of posts..

Nope, not the amount, the frequancy and content of them.

The way he engaged the game.

Umm... please stop saying this. It's irrational. Just because you two or some other people find it hard to engage and put in a high level of effort as scum doesn't mean that applies to anyone or everyone else. Just the very fact you have to appeal to a reason as silly as "It would be a lot of work and effort" should be setting off alarm bells cognitively.

I expect his alignment or role card fo be resolved by tomorrow regardless, zulfy. It would be surprising if there wasn't at least one (perhaps limited) cop in this game.

Need wgeurts to come tell me who I should campaign for as the second lynch. Wgeurts, I'll trust you, just point me in a direction and I'll do the bitch work of organizing votes!

-Cerb

Why are you making a show of talking to your hydra partner in the thread? Since when do you give up your agency so easily?

[Drixx]

was the top poster and was scum. we still won tho. metal was spammy and fully engaged.

That's metal sonic, though.

What rational reason do we have to believe that ABR cannot or would not play scum as actively?

[Drixx]

Explain to me why not

Because he is town. His lying alone doesn't make him scum. His reaction to CC makes no sesne, His posting frequancy makes no sense, The amount of aggro and attention he has gathered makes no sense.

~Lina

Btw guys

140 more posts for the record guys guys let's do this.

You guys need to re-assess things. Put away emotion for this and just evaluate logically. If you really believe he's town, then I need you to explain the town motivation for the following things:

1.) Claiming that he needed to be MC to use an ability that he guaranteed would give us scum on the morning of day 3, when he was clearly going to be voted MC and there was no real opposition to it. (Explain the town motivation for both the timing of his claim and why he lied).

2.) Please explain the town motivation he has for saying that people should be in the party so they can reveal info to a smaller group of people, and then excluding them from the party he was saying he would select while he was "campaigning" to be elected MC.

3.) Please explain how on earth you even believe his newest claim.

4.) Please explain the contradiction in his claim where he says he wants to protect the MC but also wants to be the MC.


I'm sure there's more, but I trust I've made my point?

1) It might have been overcofnidence and I am going to say that he has only spoken about 1 aspect of his role for all we know it might not be it.

2)Reads change. I believe at teh time he was townreading us above other people. If you recall, we were already voting for him as MC before he actually said that.

3)I am iffy on it. It might be a lie in order to regain MC vote but eh

4)No contradiction there. He is odd night bp thus protects himself this night if voted. Next night we can get another person voted and he can protect them(while still under his own mc protection) It is a protection cycle.


P.edit

You do not get my point. I post a fair amount as scum as well. It is the way he is engaging the game. Honestly, Low explained that point best.

I asked for town motivation for his actions. You didn't quite give what I asked but we can dialogue a bit:

1.) He has already admitted it was an outright lie. He doesn't have any way to hand us scum. He claimed his plan was to get made MC and then claim Doctor to draw fire on Night 1. Setting aside the fact that the vote for Main Character doesn't "hammer" and so there would never be a point where he could be sure he would be the MC in order to make that claim ... there's also the fact that we have a flipped role and a claimed character that hasn't been counterclaimed, and both had very high power level abilities. It seems extremely naive to believe the scum can't bypass protection at least on a limited basis.

2.) It has nothing to do with reads. You have information that would be best shared in the smaller setting of the party. That was the whole reason to put you there. Him dropping you from the party he said he was going to make if elected is purely anti-town, as it keeps that information from being available if you die and it's redacted on your role card.

3.) How can you possibly be iffy on someone claiming to be a BP on odd nights and a doctor on even nights, who also happens to be someone who earlier claimed he had a role that required MC and would guarantee scum outed at the start of day 3?

4.) You do understand how the MC protection works and the problem with intentionally setting out with a plan to swap MCs every day right?



P-edit: @MP - CooLDoG tried to manipulate the mod into mod killing someone, and did so publicly in the thread. It doesn't get more anti-town than that. If he actually believed he was seeing a trust tell, the proper course is to message the game mod privately ... not try and force the mod's hand by accusing in thread. That alone is reason enough, but that is not by a wide stretch alone. Plenty of people have pointed out why CooLDoG is probably scum, so I'm super curious to know why you think he's town. Lay it on me big guy.

[Drixx]

All of this meh I guess cooldogs town and then lame votes and/or not a vote elsewhere or people flat out ignoring it altogether given the gamestate right now leads me to believe that people in the know may not care to be associated with this lynch.

-sensei's random moonlogic thoughts that should probably be ignored-

Does this mean you think scum may be trying to save him so overtly?

[Drixx]

MC: Sensei

[Drixx]

Brother I have been scumhuntimg for 150 pages.

Right up until you unmecessarily claimed and confirmed yourself which was very bad for town.

My priority is ensuring the doctor's survival because there will be more confirmed town after you.

The irony here is absurd.

Rounding out the final entry in the 'Special Mechanics of the characters of the video game SaGa Frontier' is Lute!
Lute has no special mechanics. He's absolutely worthless.
Don't play as Lute.

Thanks Varsoon. I love being worthless!!!

if you pple want to manufacture reasons to lynch zulfy lets be honest; he is new, and young and will never be nked ever unless vigged.

I don't think he has read the game in depth. nor do I think he is likely to.

but idc anymore. sure, lets lynch zulfy over scum!kewldog.

This has been the realest post so far this game.
Why not both, though?

Why are you actively helping an obvious counterwagon to CooLDoG?

Yosarian could I interest you in a zulfy vote? Possibly maybe if I'm feelin' it a pip vote?
I'll check with the mod on that yea.

Explain?

[Drixx]

Yall ever read Orson Scott Card? When I was little I read this one book by him and there's this part where Enders all like "Your family life is shit, girl. I can tell because I am, like, not at all emotionally attached to anything going on at all I committed a genocide"

Thats me right now, and both ABR and the pirates are scum.

Mollie I am 20 how young is that?

Speaker for the Dead

.

[Drixx]

I already said that Klingoncelt has done nothing objectively scummy and I don't have any reason to scum read her. If that had changed I would have said so. I'll wait and see how Max reacts to what's going on before I answer the second part of that.

[Drixx]

Do you believe the meta that Klingoncelt plays better after Day 3? Also, have you played with her before where she was scum?

I've played with her when she was both alignments. She's like me in one critical way: activity is NAI for her. Both of us tend to be very committed to our games and if activity suffers there's an outside influence making that happen. She does seem to collect herself better as the game progresses (like most everyone really).

shhhh

Your party is awful.

Actually, and I think this is probably super obvious: the previous MC should always be among those chosen for the party since by definition they cannot die (when there's an MC swap taking place). The only exception is if somehow scum get ahold of the MC. Obviously the new MC doesn't invite them along and hopes for protection so scum can be booted from the party.

Remember I am not protecting Sensei N1.

Everyone should vote cooldog/max and not vanity wagons. The night approaches.

Titus mind your own. You snipe at me, I snipe back, nothing changes except we are both left less enthused.

Even if your claim weren't obviously bullshit, you wouldn't be able to protect Sensei anyway. We'll just have to hope there's some other protection for him.

[Drixx]

Drixx the old MC shouldnt be in the party at all.
As if the new one dies then the party looses a slot.

This is a horrible post. If we swap MCs for utility reasons and the MC who is losing protection is viewed as obvtown, they should remain in the party. There are a whole bunch of reasons why this makes sense.

@Cerb - If you guys are town please talk some logical sense into Wguerts in your hydra PT, because he obviously hasn't given any thought, at all, to the mechanics of the party, and he clearly missed the questions I asked Varsoon, the answers that were given, and the reason I asked the question. I trust you have come to the same conclusions I have, so kindly sort your other head so he stops trying to push sub-optimal ideas.

I'm still hopeful more people change their mind and I am voted MC. Town losing its doctor would be bad.

You refuse to do anything that would make people town read you after the series of posts/moves you made which made people distrust you. I'm frankly confused by what you've done, and even more confused by how you responded to the fallout. I would expect you to be trying to drive the game and show that you are town and people should look past the lies. I don't know what to make with what I'm seeing out of you instead.

[Drixx]

Cooldog: double check your role PM. Are you sure no one else can go to Wakatu? What happens if someone else tries? PM the mod for clarification if you're not sure.

Drixx: PM the mod right now, ask if you can adventure to Wakatu if you want to, or if there's anything stopping you from doing so.

I submitted it as an adventure placeholder earlier and was given no objection. I can ask, but Varsoon generally won't answer a question designed to discern someone's alignment.

[Drixx]

For whatever it's worth, I did go to Luminous and I did lift EP's post restriction successfully. I see no reason to share the things I learned about adventures outside of the adventure party, so the folks in the party should look there.

I'm confused why EP didn't use his "commute" ability. Nothing in the role card seems to indicate he would have had to not use it to get the post restriction removed.

P-Edit: There goes ABR claiming to be a liar again, and I see he's still trying to gain control of the party. Why do you need MC again ABR?

[Drixx]

Yeah, Klingon is scum, I've been saying that for a long time now.

vote:Klingon

But I am serious about my other comment; whoever targeted me last night, you BADLY hurt the town's chances of winning this game. It was an INCREDIBLY anti-town move, and you had better be able to explain yourself, and FAST.

Please read MP's role card. I'm pretty sure the answer to your question is there.

flum

is everyone fine with me shooting Kling?

did you get a power last night/what was it?

PS it was the shadow/light magic and was from luminous.

I went to luminous alone. How did you get something from that?

Yeah, Klingon is scum, I've been saying that for a long time now.

vote:Klingon

But I am serious about my other comment; whoever targeted me last night, you BADLY hurt the town's chances of winning this game. It was an INCREDIBLY anti-town move, and you had better be able to explain yourself, and FAST.

Did they take away your vote Yos? How do you know that it was town that targeted you?

No i can still vote. I'm not sure I should say much mre here.

But i will say that it was an INCREDIBLY anti-town move, but I'm not sure it's a power the mod would give to scum. So I'm torn. And pissed the hell off.

I assumed you got roleblocked from the prior post, but this makes me think someone did something else. Hrm.

[Drixx]

1) Varsoon would be that guy and put a scumdayvig in the game but I'm not really feeling that. Especially after pip's snapshot there.
2) When the ENTIRE FUCKING GAME THINKS YOU'RE SCUM then staying in the game -if you're town- is being a distraction, it has nothing to do with you, we need to see you flip before endgame, that's all there is to it. Change up how you play to not be a lurksack, OMGUSy, unreadable antitown whatever and this wont happen to you every single game.
3) Why did you park your BIT vote on me the entire day even after I became pretty obviously town?

See, I'm trying to go away, I'm really tired, but now players try to engage me.

I put my BIT vote on you because I wanted to test it out and I was certain no one would be stupid enough to vote for you. How could anyone see you as Scum?

I moved it when I saw an actual viable wagon.

And if you're wondering, I really did think CoolDog was Scum.

Why would any player in the history of mafia ever have to say that?

[Drixx]

1) Varsoon would be that guy and put a scumdayvig in the game but I'm not really feeling that. Especially after pip's snapshot there.
2) When the ENTIRE FUCKING GAME THINKS YOU'RE SCUM then staying in the game -if you're town- is being a distraction, it has nothing to do with you, we need to see you flip before endgame, that's all there is to it. Change up how you play to not be a lurksack, OMGUSy, unreadable antitown whatever and this wont happen to you every single game.
3) Why did you park your BIT vote on me the entire day even after I became pretty obviously town?

See, I'm trying to go away, I'm really tired, but now players try to engage me.

I put my BIT vote on you because I wanted to test it out and I was certain no one would be stupid enough to vote for you. How could anyone see you as Scum?

I moved it when I saw an actual viable wagon.

And if you're wondering, I really did think CoolDog was Scum.

Why would any player in the history of mafia ever have to say that?

I would. Anything and everything I say or do - or don't say or do - is supposedly a Scum!tell.

I can say my piece, whether you like it or not. At least once I flip, there will be fewer unanswered questions, right?

You do want questions answered, don't you?

Yep. I'm comfortable putting you in the town pile. Scum Klingon would have done what Lowell did in response to me.

Lowell head here. I'm back. Promised I'd read if we survived the night, so I'll do so.

I'm getting townvibes from Kling's reaction to his wagon. Also I empathize completely with DGB, and also am more than a bit lost trying to figure out the mechanics-- though it's a safe bet that at least one or two of the folks with Big Exciting Roles (BERs) are scum. I haven't kept track of all the claims, but it defies belief that all the normally town roles are, in this case, town.

VOTE: drixx

Perhaps there's an obvious reason not to do this (and hindu can yell at me in the PT if needed), but I'm not seeing anything productive out of this role. His only action so far today was to pounce on kling's (admittedly ridiculous) tautology. Seems like low-hanging fruit. Other than him being the original MC (a fact he's milked, IMO, but doesn't clear him) I don't see what there is to like here.

~Lowell

Or maybe I was trying to sort Klingon? (See Above).

[Drixx]

Can we just lynch ABR now? I mean; how many times does he need to lie before enough is enough? Anyone who has read the mechanics should realize that I am no longer in a position to default back to MC. If we re-elect Sensei today and he gets killed, Sensei was the previous MC and so the party wouldn't have an MC (the party being whomever he chose). If we elect someone else and that person is killed, MC defaults to Sensei. ABR is completely misrepresenting how the mechanics work to fearmonger and introduce the idea of multiball.

[Drixx]

I'm not blaming you for missing a post. I'm saying you read a post in real time and have no understanding of whats being said.

Wtf are you on about re:Drixx?

That's the question you need to be asking yourself.

[Drixx]

Can we just lynch ABR now? I mean; how many times does he need to lie before enough is enough?

Uh. ABR is pretty obvtown here. You did notice that he was the one who drove the Max lynch yesterday, right?

You mean the guy who had to be lynched to power himself up? There's totally no reason at all to be paranoid at all there, amirite?

[Drixx]

ABR pushing for info just makes me more suspicious. I already gave full disclosure to the party, including what I sparked and what my thought process was.

I can think of at least a half dozen more interesting things than what ABR is pushing right now, which makes me super wary.

[Drixx]

That's why he seemed to be so honest with his claim ... he really was Ascetic.

MC: Sensei

VOTE: The Cool Cucumbers

[Drixx]

Do you give a shit about this game Klingon? Because I do. I want to win.

The strong implication that anyone who doesn't just sheep you or immediately agree with you must not care about the game is pretty condescending. I've had a lesson in that recently. Trust me and put away the vinegar and get out the honey.

[Drixx]

Go ahead and vote me Drixx, you are so out of your mind in this game. The only time you have activated yourself was to lynch fucking Cooldog because DP told you to.

In mafiaception, you listened to me, I felt it. This game, it's the void. Black hole. I don't know what you've done with the real Drixx, bring him back to me goddamit.

Umm... I'm not voting you or calling you scum at the moment. I'm saying that you are turning off potential allies with what your posts are implying.

If I had to bet my life that one specific slot is scum, right this second, it would be CC by a mile. I explained why to the party already ... waiting for them to mull it over and agree.

[Drixx]

I have no idea what's going on up there, but I have no idea why Drixx refuses to post out here.
If he has good reasons to suspect Cucumber is scum there's no reason to withhold that information.

And we have a nibble. It has to be killing Cerberus that I've voted his slot and he doesn't know what he did to tip me off. From the flipped scum card, it looks like there is daytalk, so I'm tentatively grouping CC and Flum, with Flum here fishing for info while CC lurks. Party knows the reasons I put the vote down.

There is a very good reason I never wanted you in the party Day 1.

Didn't you want them in the party at one point because of the one way mason thing where they can confirm two flavor names?

[Drixx]

I'd love to see that reads list myself. In fact... I'd love for someone to explain to me how to turn my notes into useful reads lists. (I can point you to a very thorough look at how I think about and take notes on games ... should anyone be willing to help me improve that aspect of my game ... hit me up after the game finishes).

@Sensei - Party chat please.

[Drixx]

Enough public masturbation ABR. We get it.

[Drixx]

That reminds me.

VOTE: Cool Cucumbers

It's day three. Time to obvtown or die Cerb.

[Drixx]

Oh, also, Sensei: Did DP make posts or anything backing up the assertions they're making about their hydra dissonance with regards to their reads on those slots? And is Drixx actually doing something in your guys' topic? If he thinks you guys are all town, he should REALLY be infodumping to you about a shitload of stuff he's taken notes on etc, and he hasn't been present in thread in any notable way, so....yeah. His lack of content concerns me, and would be a big deal, if I didn't know he had the party to chat with...but if he's not doing that, please tell me.

-Cerb

He's talking in adventure chat, but mostly about mechanical stuff, not about his reads. I want to hear Drixx's reads as well.

I assume he's trying to create a guaranteed town victory situation assuming certain slots are town? Hmm. That's pretty normal, but complete lack of reads with two scum flips and associatives is slightly concerning. I'm sure he'll get around to it today though.

Right Drixx?

Right?

-Cerb

Funny enough I am working on a plan to push the town win probability as close to 100% as possible. That just seems like a basic thing town players should do.

You misrepresenting me in all your posts is really irritating: I clearly referred to today being day 3, which is a two week time period. You trying to manipulate that into me demanding you post immediately while you're at work, when you damn well know me referring to it being day 3 is not that is basically you intentionally misrepresenting me, and you know it.

And as I just told someone in the party chat: I'm not going to dump my notes and thoughts here and give you something to play off of to appear town. Thus far you don't line up with the town Cerb I know well. There is now enough information that I expect you to obvtown this day phase. You know I suspect you obviously, so this misrep and attempt to goad me into giving you stuff to play off of and make it harder for me to be confident in what I tell the party about my read on you ... it counts against you.

Drop the misrep bullshit, and drop the goading. Both are irrational, and when you start posting irrationally then you know how I'm going to interpret it.

[Drixx]

I can agree that people probably need not argue about who is the bestest. I'm town and all the other towns are better than I am. I'm the worst town to ever town in this game. I freely admit it. That should make people feel better about themselves.

Unvote

Consider the sentiment the same. I expect you should think it's a compliment.

As for my plan well ... I'll keep that between me and the folks who already know for now. It has hopefully not already been compromised and if it works, hooray for plans

[Drixx]

Drixx, who would you vote between Skybird, Klingon, and Zulfy?

Skybird before Zulfy before Klingon. Reasons upon request.

[Drixx]

ABR is significantly misrepresenting the scenario. I'll carve out some time in the morning and paraphrase the entire exchange for folks, unless you want to give everyone an actual objective explanation of what happened before I wake.

P-Edit: Sensei ... it's a pretty significant deviation away from what actually went down. ABR came in with a very slanted series of posts that make him look good ... it probably needs to be explained objectively. People are otherwise going to speculate and may come to wrong conclusions.

[Drixx]

Can we slow this roll just a little bit? Cerberus has been legitimately super busy (I've barely spoken to him in the last week which is way out of the ordinary).

I want to see his evaluation of things. From that, I will feel quite comfortable in evaluating and telling you guys whether he's town or scum. We know each other that well and we both approach the game very similarly. I'd prefer not to just lynch him out of hand because he hasn't engaged yet. I've had busy times before and been lynched because of them, and that always sucks.

This is not a defense at all of the slot. I already pointed out some reasons I suspect the slot may be scum but they don't make me 100% sure. I want to actually see him evaluate the game and have the chance to give my response toit. If his analysis of the game strikes me as coming from town!Cerb and you guys want to lynch him anyway, we will at least have the benefit of having his thoughts on the game, which I think everyone will agree will help regardless of his alignment.

[Drixx]

I really think it would be wise to back off and give Cerberus some time. I would like people to unvote simply so nobody silences him and claims they didn't realize. We have a good amount of time and he shouldn't feel like he has to compromise his real life to dump hours into the game today, or else. That's just asinine, even if he rolled scum. Nobody deserves to be pushed like that, regardless of alignment, when the day phases are so long.

This is mostly an OOC post. This is the person behind the keyboard saying that not one of us would want to be put in a position of having to set aside our Real Life plans (especially on Super Bowl Sunday) or else get lynched. It's one thing if we're close to the deadline, but this isn't that. A little empathy and compassion for one another would go a long way toward making things so much more pleasant.

I'll get down off my soap box now.

[Drixx]

Can people please de-ass their heads?

If TCC is town, giving Cerb time to dump his thoughts in game will let me evaluate his thinking and I can point you to why I am qualified to evaluate whether he's actually trying to figure the game out or making up a narrative (Go to my profile, go to my topics, find Steven Universe and in the post game Varsoon links to our hydra PT. It's 60,000 words of he and I working together to solve that game. I'm not blowing smoke out my ass when I say I will be able to evaluate him). Furthermore, a town Cerb+Wguerts is a very strong asset for town (again, check said PT for why).

If TCC is scum, then anything they say to try and stay alive has to be good enough to try and fool me, which means it cannot help but be valuable for us.

Either way, it's scummy as fuck to lynch them before Cerb posts his analysis. It's also just plain bad play. People need to unvote and cool their jets. It's not like there are no other leads to pursue. It's also not like we're rapidly running out of time. This whole thing is just silly.

[Drixx]

Babylon 5? You mean my favorite TV show? What????

Yes. The best television show ever. Also one of the shows (if not THE show) that ushered in our current era of television series which are told from multiple points of view and tell a layered interwoven story instead of having episodes which are loosely connected, at best.


P-Edit: Yeah, we should. It took me like a year of cajoling to get him to watch. I'm pretty certain he'll be a member of the faithful by the end

[Drixx]

TCC/Cerb, you mentioned your play and Drixx' play is very similar. I was in another game with Drixx where he claimed 3rd party that can win with town. In the end, he was scum.

Everyone, I intend to vote TCC when I get home tonight if he is still alive. I'm late for work and don't have time to figure out where he is on the vote count and I don't want to accidentally hammer.

There's a huge difference between that situation and this one.

1.) I replaced into SMITE on day 3, after the previous player on the slot had made the 3rd party claim in the neighborhood. I was stuck with it. He actually was making a really good play asking Mastin to check him, but then he lost his nerve and claimed 3rd party because she slipped that her cop ability didn't give an alignment, but was binary and so 3rd party would appear the same as scum. I inherited the claim and played it the only way I could ... but it was always fake.

2.) Varsoon and I have talked about the state of 3rd party roles on the site, and we both have agreed that it would be cool if they weren't just policy lynches. Like ... I don't want to go into more detail because there may or may not be 3rd party roles in a game I'm working on right now (seriously haven't decided so if any of you end up in the game, don't make bad assumptions LOL).

2a.) Varsoon has already taken steps in that direction. Suikoden U-Pick had a really cool town aligned survivor role. The town didn't believe that the role was an asset to them (it functioned as a quasi-cop as I recall) and did the "all 3P must be lynched" thing and lost an asset. Varsoon is doing a good thing, I think, and I would not at all be surprised if TCC's claim is 100% true. It explains the things that were bothering me about the slot and yesterday's party can go look at what I was saying and confirm that the claim does indeed satisfy the things that were bothering me.

3.) It's almost a certainty that they're a third party, where the situation with my slot in SMITE was that I got put into a neighborhood with a goo spreader who could cop anyone who got goo on them (it was swarms of bees, but the wiki would call that role a goo spreader, so using that terminology). It's also really bad logic to go "Drixx says he thinks like Cerberus. Drixx replaced into a slot that had already fake claimed third party and ended up being scum. Therefore Cerb is fake claiming." (I expect the critical flaw in that logic is exposed when I put it that way yeah? Even if our similar approach would lead to him making similar plays to me, the 3rd party claim in SMITE didn't originate with me and isn't the way I would have chosen to play that role ... although I shouldn't complain since I managed to win the game with it).

If the town vig was already dead, then maybe we could risk letting TCC live. But as it is, we can't risk it; TCC's claimed win condition will force him to keep lynching and nightkilling townies until the vig is dead. And that's assuming there is only 1 real town vig.

I think we may not have any more town aligned people with a killing power on their role card. We've seen three flip yeah? They may have already done all the "damage" they'll ever need to do to town already, in which case if we kill them we just give up having them around if we need to confirm someone's claim but want to keep them around. For example, at some point we'll want to confirm R&L's claim ... but having their voices still around afterward would be super helpful ... while also knowing that they were telling the truth and we know the people they cleared are conftown. There's a role in the game that does that for us.

We also have someone who claims to get near total immunity when the number of people alive hits 10 or fewer. If that's a scum role or we need to flip it ... again it can be stumped while retaining the player voices on the slot.

Being stumped and losing powers is WAY better than using lynches to handle paranoia concerns, because when they get stumped then we know whether we can trust their claims or not, plus town stumps cannot be silenced and can continue to help advance their win condition. This is vastly preferable to wasting lynches on paranoia.

This role actually seems like a net positive to me ... assuming there are no more town vigilantes and the damage to town is already done (and that seems likely given THREE town aligned players with killing ability have flipped).

Given that they are willing to leash and help us avoid wasting lynches on anyone we need to confirm ... I would argue it's logical to leave them alive, especially in light of the fact that we know Varsoon has recently been tinkering with making third party roles which shouldn't be killed as a matter of policy.

@Varsoon - Do acquired abilities (techniques) which could give someone a kill (For example, the second sword technique grants a night kill if the person hammers the lynch) count as a killing ability in the same way a Vigilante or Serial killer kill ability does? In a hypothetical situation where someone's win condition is to "eliminate" anyone with a killing ability, would abilities acquired by sparking techniques need to be "eliminated" to meet that hypothetical win condition?

Hello mollie?
wgeurts speaking here.
Could you possibly not make us loose, I mean: think of the benefits of keeping us alive. We can take out suspects at will, and we have to hunt scum. We are a threat to the scum team!
If the game isn't over once all scum are dead lynch us. But that won't happen.
Yes this is a desperate attempt at winning you over. Realise that scum see us as a threat, and in the case we do get lynched please take a really good look at who went after us; especially after we claimed.

you tried to stump/kill us on d1. are you fucking kidding me here?

catching up

plz tell abr's sanity returns and that very very stupid klingon thing stops posting.

To be really fair ... what you guys have claimed is kind of scary. If you are scum and have fooled those of us town reading you ... it's game over if you are being honest about your ability. I kind of want to keep them around just in case we get to the stage where paranoia starts making have to consider strong town reads like you guys. On day one, I may have made the same decision in their shoes. Right now, I would be seriously pissed if you guys showed up tree stumped tomorrow.

@all:

Given that we know Varsoon (like me) feels that third party roles need an overhaul and should not be policy lynches, and given that we have a very recent game of his finished where there was a third party which was very much a pro-town role, and given that any "damage" this role would do to town is likely already done, and given that it actually makes logical sense and explains the things that were bothering me about their slot ... I would suggest that you seriously re-evaluate your thinking. If we lynch TCC, it should be because we think they're scum fake claiming, imo. Their role as claimed, if they're being honest, is actually useful to us, especially if they already got all the town vigs gone. It even has the added upside of allowing us to paranoia check and still retain strong voices who we would know for sure have town win condition and who we could then trust 100%, and they've agreed to act only with our consent.

This seems to me like the ideal leash scenario.

[Drixx]

Yeah, I still think we lynch CC today. If he's telling the truth, he's still a quasi-SK who's win condition requires him to kill multiple townies. He says he wins with the town, but if he has to kill all the townies to find the vigs, I suspect the town still loses.

And I.don't think he's quite telling the whole truth here.

oh thank god

thank you thank you thank you yoyo

what is wrong with abr? did he drink the water? I told you pple not to do that

What if all the town vigs are already gone? Then they aren't a threat at all to town (if they are being honest about win condition). It's a pretty absurdly good fake claim if it's fake. Cerberus was watching Babylon 5 and commenting on it with my wife and I until a few minutes before he made that post. If he pulled that out of his ass in 5 minutes ... holy shit.

[Drixx]

For example, at some point we'll want to confirm R&L's claim ... but having their voices still around afterward would be super helpful ... while also knowing that they were telling the truth and we know the people they cleared are conftown.

Uh. We ARE NOT going to kill R&L just to "confirn" them. And yes, from the pov of the town win condition, a tree stump is the same as dead.

If you think R&L are scum and we should kill then, make your case. At least ABR made a case against tgem. You trying to kill them just to "confirm them" is bad bad bad badbadbadbadbad.

Yos ... I think you missed the part where I said if we get into the late game and things aren't adding up ... it would be much better to stump claims we need to check rather than waste lynches. If the game lasts that long and we have to flip R&L to confirm you as conftown ... I think you agree it would be considerably better for them to be treestumped and not cost us a lynch to do that, right?

Don't take what I'm saying out of its proper context. I don't think we should just stump people to confirm their claims right this second. I do think that if somehow the game goes on for long enough that we need to start confirming things, being able to do so without losing a lynch to do it is a really strong upside.

[Drixx]

For example, at some point we'll want to confirm R&L's claim ... but having their voices still around afterward would be super helpful ... while also knowing that they were telling the truth and we know the people they cleared are conftown.

Uh. We ARE NOT going to kill R&L just to "confirn" them. And yes, from the pov of the town win condition, a tree stump is the same as dead.

If you think R&L are scum and we should kill then, make your case. At least ABR made a case against tgem. You trying to kill them just to "confirm them" is bad bad bad badbadbadbadbad.

ABR case is BS

ABR push is BS as well

and I'm not going to die for this BS

a tree stumped person is a dead person who can talk. I have other abilities and my vote. If you think I'm scum and lying go ahead. I'm here to answer. If not back off and lynch this obv scum

~Ryali

You do realize that if the game goes on long enough, we have to flip you to confirm your claim right? That doesn't need to happen today or probably even in the next few days ... but if you are town you should realize that we could get to a game state where flipping you is necessary. If you are town, you should logically agree that if we get to that point, doing it via a treestump ability instead of using a lynch is a far superior way to check your claim.

Like ... a huge part of our town block and strongest town reads rest on the assumption you are being honest. If you are, we should win before it ever gets to that point ... but you need to evaluate yourself from an outside point of view and consider the long term possibilities here.

Unlike ABR, I'm not asserting that you are lying. I'm saying that you may need to be flipped in the way late game if things aren't adding up, and I'm saying that if that happens, I'd much prefer to not have to spend a lynch on it and to still have your voices around if that flip were to be necessary and if it showed you were 100% honest. Treestumped you that we know we can trust in a game going down to the wire is a WAY better position than dead you that we know we can trust but can no longer talk or help in any way.

Nuances are important.

P-Edit: What Yos said in #7435. Also you're quickly losing points for pretending that what ABR said is the only reason we might ever consider lynching you. There are a lot of game states in the possibility space where knowing for sure that you have been honest would be necessary.

[Drixx]

want a ramp ? here it is

he calls he hates my attidude!

yay! I found max scum day 1 way before than him.

I was the one who was pressuring max at the last part of day 1

I was sure that DS is not in group scum ecuase of his posts! (right again)

I knew ABR lied in day 1 (yay , obvious wasn't it ?)

So exactly which part of my play sucks? and I need to die for ?

~Ryali

I don't think you need to die today. I do believe that rationally there may come a time in the game where we absolutely have to see you flip so we can know for sure that Sensei and Zulfy are actually moderator confirmed to be town on your role card. That's a thing that could be necessary. You also claimed miller and millers are basically always lynched before end game because otherwise scum would just always have one of their team claim miller. Giving a town slot miller is basically a mod building a mislynch into the game and is viewed as such for balance, yeah?

P-Edit: What Yos said in #7435. Also you're quickly losing points for pretending that what ABR said is the only reason we might ever consider lynching you. There are a lot of game states in the possibility space where knowing for sure that you have been honest would be necessary.

YOU WANT TO SEE I'M HONEST OR NOT ?

DO YOU CHECK ALL THE ROLE PM'S TO SEE THE PLAYERS ARE HONEST OR NOT (in your each game?)

IF YOU DO I'LL HAPPILY DIE FOR THIS BS

IF NOT I will basically leave this shit after my flip today,

YOU have like 11 days ahead of you to find scum AND YOU WANT ME GONE JUST FOR STOP THINKING ABOUT THE GAME

BRAVO YOUr the best people ever

Umm... I said that there are scenarios in the future possibility space where it might be necessary to see your flip to confirm the people you say your role mod confirms as town. That's before even addressing the miller claim. I didn't at any point say I wanted you dead today or even that I am scum reading you, although the outbursts definitely sap the fun out of things.

It's WIFOM and setup spec but I find it hard to believe TCC didn't use a fakeclaim or something.

TCC's claim is almost certainly true. He was watching Babylon 5 and actively talking to me and my wife and he posted a detailed claim that makes logical sense a few minutes after the episode ended. I don't know anyone good enough to put together a fake claim that fits so elegantly that fast. There's a player I have a lot of respect for who has as his signature something like "Paraphrasing a role PM takes minutes. Crafting a good fake claim takes an eternity." and that's spot on.

I used to love mafia

it shld be pretty obvs the oly pple who want cukes to live are scum or derp town.

this is like mafia 101 and wow look at who is failing.

rylai stop talking to abr. he is being a jerk.

and I am looking at the pple who are standing by and letting this shit happen.

fuck you pple

you know exactly what is going on here AND YOU ARE LETTING IT HAPPEN.

eta: rylai no he won't but he will be forced to confirm you which bottlenecks scum's endgame options.

Ummm ... There's actually a lot of reason to believe the claim. If you want to argue that all third party players should be policy lynched, let me point out a couple of things:

1.) A town aligned survivor was in a recent Varsoon game. Check it out
2.) Dramonic made a neutral role that could end up with either win condition, and functionally for the game ended up being a neutral with town win condition and permanently body guarding someone. Check it out (It's the bottom role card on the list)


It's not "derp town" to have an open mind, especially with good game creators actively working to create compelling third party roles which should not be policy lynched. I totally get that neutral roles have been in a rut for years and considered policy lynch material and that long time mafia players are going to knee jerk react that way ... but times change.

---

MC: Sensei

@ZZZX - Man you gotta stop being mad at me about SMITE. I replaced into that with the fake claim gambit already made by the slot. I just did my best with what I had. There's a huge difference between this situation and that one. In SMITE I was scum with a fake claim. I wasn't actually a third party so my play in that game shouldn't color how you view 3rd parties, as long as you can be relatively sure that they are actually third party.


P-Edit: DP you need to chill. You didn't claim until super recently that you are going to be mod declared town once we get down to 10 players. Holding recently disclosed information against someone when lots of people were unsure of you on day one isn't at all rational.

[Drixx]

@ drixx -

no, I said we had the potential to be confirmable on d1.

all this shows is that you pple don't read a thing I say.

I don't give a flying fuck if he is your IRL friend. he is getting lynched TODAY even if I have to yell, scream, sell a kidney and throw a hissy fit in order to do it.

its what we are doing.

Can you quote that? I clearly missed it.

[Drixx]

R&L's post in the party PT was nothing to write home about. Not compelling and I'm sure neither of them would want me to paraphrase it here even.

[Drixx]

@Varsoon - Do acquired abilities (techniques) which could give someone a kill (For example, the second sword technique grants a night kill if the person hammers the lynch) count as a killing ability in the same way a Vigilante or Serial killer kill ability does? In a hypothetical situation where someone's win condition is to "eliminate" anyone with a killing ability, would abilities acquired by sparking techniques need to be "eliminated" to meet that hypothetical win condition?

I can't answer that question.

@Varsoon: Can more than one fist technique be used in the same day phase, without the usage of Dream Super Combo? Basically, if someone had the first two levels of Fist techniques, could they use both Sliding and Suplex on the same target, in the same day phase?

Yes. Unless otherwise stated, you can use as many abilities during the day phase as you like.

New Question:

If a player sparks techniques and gains a technique that could give them the ability to kill, would that player then be considered to have a killing role?

[Drixx]

So we have a Miller AND a Third Party we are obligated to use lynches on?

I think there's literally zero chance of you making it out of today alive TCC. Best you can get out of this is to try and leave behind good reasoning about who is scum and why and show that you will play town friendly as a neutral. Nobody is going to listen to me.

[Drixx]

Scum miller is a thing.

I believe that Yosarian2 scum slipped in the Party PT. I would like votes OFF of TCC temporarily as fast as possible. Do it so the day doesn't get ended prematurely. I will post again when he has satisfied me that it's not a slip, or else the post will out how he slipped and be accompanied by my vote and hopefully a bunch more.

[Drixx]

There's no reason for me to out it without giving Yosarian the chance to show me somewhere that my logic chain fails.

But ... if my logic chain is sound, it's basically 100% certain that I caught Yosarian in a narrative slip. I don't say that lightly. This has nothing to do with ABR's earlier concern.

[Drixx]

Don't misrep me DP. I said that there exists possible gamestates in the future where having R&L's flip in order to know for sure 100% that Sensei and Zulfy are town would be desireable, and doing it while still letting them help their wincon would be even more so. I was in fact arguing that we wouldn't want to lynch them but if we got to that point we would want to have someone leashed who could stump them.

It's amusing how you were all about keeping things hidden while you were in the party, but now you are railing against it.

[Drixx]

Maybe I'm over paranoid and melting down, and maybe not. I'm giving Yosarian the benefit of the doubt and asking him to explain. I simply didn't want the day to end without resolving it. If I screwed up with my logic, I'll own it and say so.

P-EDIT: Personal attacks aren't helpful. Go show my logic to be wrong and I'll gladly feast on crow. Keep attacking and I'm going to assume I legit caught you.

[Drixx]

Okay so apparently I'm not going to be in the party because I totally screwed this up.

Yesterday we were fairly paranoid that scum had some way to read the party chat or that we had scum in the party. Then Yos casually mentioned the exact abilities I sparked, even though I didn't say them in today's PT (there's a new one each day). He had no way to know that unless the paranoia from yesterday was true and he was party to some other chat where the info was shared.

But then I got pointed to a page I missed in today's PT (it's not even very long, so I'm apparently really clueless for missing a whole page) where someone else told today's group what I sparked.

Feel free to /point and /mock.

[Drixx]

Why bring this up, Drixx? All it does is make everyone else sad we aren't in the party. It doesn't pertain to us either. Let the MC choose their party and leave it be.

Because I thought dude had knowledge he shouldn't have, and that's usually a really bad thing.

MC: Yosarian

[Drixx]

Why bring this up, Drixx? All it does is make everyone else sad we aren't in the party. It doesn't pertain to us either. Let the MC choose their party and leave it be.

Because I thought dude had knowledge he shouldn't have, and that's usually a really bad thing.

You just said you realized you skipped a page in the PT and this knowledge-issue had been cleared up so, again, why even bring it up?

Yes ... I realized that once it got pointed out to me. It hadn't been pointed out when Yos started talking about what I sparked and what he thought I should do tonight (as the day is winding down we have to decide where to adventure and all that jazz). Since my choices for abilities to spark weren't super obvious ones, I was almost 100% sure he had to be scum for knowing ... then it got pointed out to me that someone from yesterday's party said it and they quoted the post and I went back and apparently I just accidentally skipped a page when I did a refresh after sleeping and there were 3 or 4 pages.

It was totally a "Drixx derped" moment on my part. But for real ... Cerb can attest to the fact that catching someone having knowledge they have no legit way of knowing is one of those things that he and I both look for. I'm sorry I made a big fuss about nothing.

[Drixx]

It bothers me how much Cerberus can discern of what I'm thinking just from the things I've said. I mentioned future game states in the possibility space where we would want to see Shiro's flip and he discerned the exact chain of thought that made me say that, when I can think of at least a half dozen other reasons I might have said that.

Just thought I would note that it's unsettling. I've only typed through my full thoughts into my notepad notes for the game at this point. Just ... freaky.

If I have the same ability to understand his thinking, I basically guarantee you his claim is genuine. Guess I'll find out at some point.

[Drixx]

I may never get this chance again.

So what you're saying, Cerb, is that Lowkey has been really low key this game?

[Drixx]

@Flum - I second ABR's request.

Also, you should know that choosing that particular character from Babylon 5 is going to make me to read your posts as more negative and less neutral than I might otherwise.

[Drixx]

Double Slash: Skybird

[Drixx]

Reaction tests are freaking awesome.

Unvote

<--- and now scum get to wonder, which makes the whole thing even sweeter.

I LOVE THIS GAME!

[Drixx]

Reaction tests are freaking awesome.

Unvote

<--- and now scum get to wonder, which makes the whole thing even sweeter.

I LOVE THIS GAME!

So, if I were at null, how much town cred would I have got for that response?

How about fluminator?

-Cerb

Your claim leaves you only one avenue to try and survive, and that is to appear as docile as possible and as willing to cooperate with any conditions town sets on you. Given that you were obviously not going to be lynched; however, your insistence that you be firmly blocked and that various other things be shown to be true, beyond just your willingness to meet any restriction ... you gain town points.

Flum could have taken a party member putting the chosen lynch at L-1 as confirmation we were ready to move forward and hammered with only slight risk to himself, so him withholding the hammer and trying to get a feel for what other people were thinking is very very slight town points... mostly because opportunistic hammers are viewed so negatively in the current site meta.

[Drixx]

EbWoP: And of course, I could have just been baiting Flum into thinking he was placing an opportunistic hammer when he wouldn't have been, which further diminishes any credibility he gets.

[Drixx]

Also really friggin unnecessary to reveal that you have a double vote, if you actually do. :-/

-Cerb

I already said that I thought Yos was scum at one point for somehow knowing what I had sparked. Do you think I would freak out if he assumed I sparked the most obvious thing on the list? *facepalm* - You're smarter than that.

[Drixx]

ABR - Party chat real fast please.

[Drixx]

I agree that if Skybird flips town, Flum is probably in need of being stumped. There's really good reasons for it. Please just trust ABR and I on that Cerb. We can explain afterward.

[Drixx]

Not to say I don't agree with the plan, it's reasonable in the event sky flips town, it resolves the game long 1v1 and makes sense, but I'd rather not risk you all choosing to lynch me for doing it.

So, right now, I have ABR+maybe drixx saying I should stump flum IF skybird flips town.

Other opinions?

-Cerb

I've kept you alive this long dont let me down. Execute the plan to the letter.

Flum and TCC vote for Sky now

I concur. Neither of us will let you get killed tomorrow for doing what we asked you to do. If skybird flips scum, do nothing. If she flips town, stump Flum.

[Drixx]

TCC made a cogent point so it makes sense to be cautious. One day of not getting a "soul power" almost certainly won't be a loss condition for us. By the way ... am I the only one creeped out that Flum is basically taking people's souls to gain power? It's probably NAI due to the flavor of the game, but still creepy.

[Drixx]

VOTE: Skybird

[Drixx]

I should have just hammered Cerb when he was at L-1.
This is stupid.

You listed Skybird as your firmest scum read and you are getting the lynch you wanted. You are upset by this why?

[Drixx]

Because the paranoia on me is stupid and keeping me away from cool powers.

I assure you the paranoia isn't "stupid". It has at the very least valid logic. If the premises are true, then it bumps up from valid to sound. Just let it ride and we'll see the flip and that will clear up a lot of questions.

[Drixx]

Yeah, you do after you took away a potential Sensei/Pip/me neighborhood that would be op as heck.

If you're right on your strongest scum read, you won't be stumped. And Cerberus appears to be trying to give himself an excuse not to stump you by asking repeatedly for other people who are not here to tell him it's okay to stump you ... so even if your top scum read flips town you may escape being stumped.

I'm also confused about why people view being stumped so negatively. I would much prefer being stumped over being dead. I accomplish my best work when there is nothing that can silence me and I don't have to worry about it.

[Drixx]

Oh wow, so it's based on premises you don't even know are true.

There's a difference between something being highly probable and something being certain. I'm using formal logical terminology. Please don't twist that to mean more than it does. I'm making a very clear distinction between Valid and Sound for a reason.

Valid means that if the premises are true the conclusion must be true. Sound means that the logical proposition is valid

AND

the premises are certainly true and therefore the conclusion is certainly true.

At no point did I suggest that I was dubious of the premises involved or that I found them improbable. Do I know for sure? Nope. That's why it's just Valid logic right now, instead of Sound.

[Drixx]

Because the paranoia on me is stupid and keeping me away from cool powers.

I assure you the paranoia isn't "stupid". It has at the very least valid logic. If the premises are true, then it bumps up from valid to sound. Just let it ride and we'll see the flip and that will clear up a lot of questions.

you are confusing "logic" with "rationalization"

those aren't synonyms hth

Man you really don't like me very much for some reason. Did I shit in your corn flakes or something?

[Drixx]

Mollie, maybe that's because ABR has given us a chance where we would otherwise have had none. Also cerb can confirm I've been wanting flum/sky lynched for a while.
Maybe if you would actually talk to us we could discuss better options.
~wgeurts

those problems that I have listed have been going on for a while. everything you guys have pushed have come from a survivalistic perspective. you are in the game for yourselves. I mean this is really clear. I mean you just fucked flum who is probs town out of his power I mean he has been transparent about this all game.

you fucked town over so that you cld live. and I am supposed to trust you?

What reasoning do you have for saying that Flum is probably town? Does that same reasoning apply to Yosarian?

[Drixx]

VOTE: Cerb

SLIDING

: Cucumbers

SUPLEX

: Cucumbers

BABEL CRUMBLE

: Cucumbers

GIANT SWING:

Cucumbers

DREAM SUPER COMBO

: Albert Fucking Rampage

Thankfully I hammered and none of this counts, but you just showed that you cannot be trusted with the power you have. You even admitted you hadn't caught up with the thread when you did this. This is reckless and irresponsible and the single most scummy thing I've seen in this game so far.

Okay, umm. If skybird flips scum, can we please shoot that? :-/ That...was really bad. Incredibly impulsive and emotional, and poorly done. If a hammer didn't happen earlier, he just dumped his powers on us, and then gladiated adn dumped his powers on ABR, thus making it very likely that ABR or himself will get lynched. IF ABR lives, he just fucking roleblocked the fucking doctor.

-Cerb

In my opinion, you should stump Zulfy if Skybird flips scum and Flum if she flips town. I would say Zulfy no matter what, but Flum pushed the sky lynch hard and then when it was accomplished tried to distance from it, so her flipping town makes it super probable he's scum. But yeah ... that was one of the worst attempts to just give everyone the middle finger and the most irresponsible attempted use of a role power I've ever seen. That cannot be trusted to live.

ABR is freaking doctor AND has singlehandedly driven the lynch on 2 scum and an SK, and nearly got successfully counterwagoned when he was pushing for the Gale lynch. There is no possible town motive to gladiate ABR. That doesn't come from any conceivable town mindset.

Follow the plan, TCC.

This is why I wanted us to lynch before Zulfy got back and did something stupid.

We all had a plan. My powers were to be democratically decided. You screwed it up. Get rid of this putz

You just tried to singlehandedly take out the person most responsible for every scum lynch this game, and you're calling

HIM

a putz?

We're shooting zulfy if skybird flips scum. Seriously. Unless you can someone convince us you will flash lynch him if he gladiates us, he fucking dies tonight unless sky is scum.

Or he can convince us he won't fucking do any fucking thing like this ever again.

-Cerb

You don't get to talk like that. Your hammer was absolute bollocks.

I hammered, not them.


@Cerb - Nothing Zulfy says can be trusted after that display. I'll back you 100% if Skybird flips scum and you stump him. He just tried to take out the most obvious town player in the game. He's a gigantic liability on the slim chance that he's actually town and did that.

[Drixx]

I'm curious if any of Zulfy's actions will take place. Technically it's still the day until nightfall, so it's possible that everything but the gladiate and votes might work. I suppose that's up to how Varsoon views things.

@Flum - A bit of hyperbole on my part. ABR was a huge factor in those lynches, and I don't see anyone I could give even equal credit to for catching Gale, let alone more. I actually thought Gale was probably town until I saw the flip.

While we're in twilight ... care to explain why you were pushing Skybird as the most scummy and in need of lynch, but then tried to distance yourself from it once it became clear it was going to go through?

[Drixx]

And even if you want to say that ABR shouldn't get much credit for the lynches ... he was still the counterwagon to Gale and nearly got lynched instead of Gale. Like... you can dislike the way ABR is going about things ... but are you actually trying to argue that he's scum and it's totally fine that Zulfy decided he wanted to gladiate obvtown out of sheer spite?

[Drixx]

Screw you ABR. I want to make it clear I am absolutely not doing this because of anything you said or any of your bully techniques. The ONLY reason I'm doing this is Drixx seems to agree. I'm done working with and listening to you for the rest of the game unless you have a damn good reason for your apparent scum read.
VOTE: Sky

You listed skybird as your strongest scum read in your recent reads list, so why are you saying you are only voting her because I agree you should?

I think ABR is just trying to bully and exert power because there's no reason to try to deny me the hammer if he isn't scum reading me.
I don't know what I did to him to make him be like this to me though.

Step outside of yourself. If people you trust (me) feel like our read on you will firm up one way or the other based upon something, and we feel like caution is warranted, that's reason to deny you one soul power. If you are scum, giving you extra power is bad. If you are town, missing out on one one-shot power is probably not going to cost us the game. Try to think about things outside of your own perspective because you have information nobody else has so your view is going to obviously be biased by that.

I'm going to hammer ABR. You going to steal it?

Actually, I'm more curious if Yos will steal it.

UNVOTE:
Yes, not giving me the hammer if the same as keeping away a new town utility. It's not about the bullet proof.

You had the chance to take the hammer and didn't. In fact you seemed to think it was more useful to see if someone would ninja hammer to deny you the hammer. Please reconcile this behavior with your expressed anger at being denied the hammer ... especially since you could have taken the hammer.

[Drixx]

Zulfy is not actually confirmed by Shiro. Shiro gave out the name before Zulfy claimed it. Just saying.

You're also not confirmed until it actually happens. I think it unlikely that you would make the claim that you will be mod confirmed in thread (equivalent to Innocent Child) if it's not true, but it would be foolish for me to just assume it is true and let that assumption impact other thoughts.

I appreciate it that I am almost certainly not as good at this game as you are, but do you have to constantly imply that I'm terrible? It has started to feel really personal.

[Drixx]

I object. Please check your PMs.

[Drixx]

Using double slash makes me a double voter. I have to activate it, but I'm then a double voter for the day. It's super clear that I viewed it that way because I intentionally waited to lay down the hammer. There's no sense in WIFOM anymore since the game mod outed to the game that I have Double Slash even though it doesn't show up in any vote count ever, and I'm super pissed off that I was told I had to activate it and then I was a double voter, and now suddenly there's some kind of semantics that make that not the case. Clearly if I thought I had to say that phrase every time I would have said the damned phrase when I wanted to hammer Skybird.

Given the clear intend

and

the mod outing my ability, I think it's clear what the right thing to do is, and it isn't what's going on right now.

[Drixx]

I object. Please check your PMs.

I've scoured the thread.
I've checked votecounts since the start of the day.
I checked votecounts since my most recent one.
Even if Wgeurt's out-of-hydra vote was counted, you never hammered Skybird.

Okay we can do it publicly:

Post #7775 it looks like this:

Skybird (2): Fluminator, Zulfy

Post #7888 Sensei votes Sky, bringing her to 3.
Post #7890 Shiro votes Sky, bringing her to 4.
Post #7898 Wguerts (TCC) votes sky, bringing her to 5.
Post #7911 DGB votes Sky, bringing her to 6.
Post #7944 Fluminator unvotes, bringing her to 5.
Post #7956 I Double vote, bringing her to 7.
Post #7962 I unvote, bringing her back down to 5.
Post #8010 Flum votes back, bringing her to 6.
Post #8013 TCC votes, changing nothing.
Post #8019 I voted, hammering.

I used the Double Slash which turned me into a double voter, so my vote is 2 votes so that's 6 + 2 = 8 = hammer.

You made it very clear that I had to trigger becoming a double voter. I did that. I clearly intended to hammer and even sent a question about it. You now seem to be saying that using the bolded phrase doesn't make me a double voter, it just makes that particular single action a double vote, which is confusing because it's not what I got out of the earlier clarification, and I am pretty sure there's ridiculous clear intent on my part to hammer with that vote, and obvious that I fully thought I had hammered her because of triggering double vote earlier.

[Drixx]

Like we're into ridiculous semantics territory here. If you rule that I have to say the phrase every single time, then you should not have confirmed to the game at large that I actually have a double vote, because no double vote has ever showed up in a vote count.

[Drixx]

Mechanics Semantics (especially when multiple people are obviously confused and there are multiple posts in here and in the MC party chat showing that the intent was to hammer and I in fact had the ability to hammer) should never get in the way of the actual intent of the players.

[Drixx]

If Varsoon doesn't do the right thing, you will be the one dying today Zulfy. In what delusional world are you living in that you think you can do what you did and then manage to survive it?

[Drixx]

Then the moderator should not have outed me as having an ability that wasn't outed. It can't be "If the player misunderstands, I'm going to use semantics instead of player intent, but if I screw up oh well". That's just shitty.

You need to explain your peditx3 because it makes me want you dead.

[Drixx]

If Varsoon doesn't do the right thing, you will be the one dying today Zulfy. In what delusional world are you living in that you think you can do what you did and then manage to survive it?

In the world where hes shown himself go be the more antitown player and Im confirmed town babyyyy

You made the most anti-town play in the game. You're dead. You just don't know it yet.

[Drixx]

Lowkey and TCC, please vote zulfy. I will then hammer him. The part of the pedit that needs explaining is why we would no lynch right now (seems dumb to waste the town's power for the day), and why ABR would be up for lynch after Zulfy.

[Drixx]

You wont lynch confirmed town, brother

You're not confirmed town, and I'm not your brother. Even if you were confirmed town, you have proven yourself to be too reckless and undisciplined to be allowed to live.

[Drixx]

I thought I had made it clear that all day-use abilities needed to be used with a bolded tag.
I understand the wording of 'Double Slash' is awkward and I understand your confusion.
I will change the description of DOUBLE SLASH to more accurately describe how it works.
Sensei had already used DOUBLE SLASH; it should have been clear from their use how it functions.
I will not retroactively say that you used DOUBLE SLASH when you did not.
I do realize that this is largely against me. The description of the power should be clearer and it is my fault for outing your TECHNIQUE.

At this point, I will hold that there was no hammer--not just because there was not one made, but also because doing so would unfairly out the fact Zulfy has access to all FIST Techniques.

Sensei used a different ability with the word Gale in it. Just saying.

[Drixx]

I'll happily lynch the shit out of Zulfy but chill and wait for everyone. No need to rush the lynch.

There's nothing left to do today except lynch one of them.

[Drixx]

There's no universe in which I'm going to lynch a doctor who has been right about 3 scum over a lurker who acted in super irresponsible and rash fashion without even having read the thread. It's not going to happen.

Like I said: You're dead ... you just don't know it yet. And you did it to yourself.

[Drixx]

What's to say Lowkey? Everything else that is important can't happen today because of Zulfy. We're just wasting time.

[Drixx]

A no lynch is absolutely

not

the right move here. Zulfy has proven that he cannot be trusted. He's done immense damage and there's nothing to indicate that he won't do it again.

TCC cannot actually stump skybird Lowkey.

TCC and you just need to trust me and vote Zulfy and I'll try and salvage something out of this mess.

[Drixx]

A no lynch is absolutely

not

the right move here. Zulfy has proven that he cannot be trusted. He's done immense damage and there's nothing to indicate that he won't do it again.

TCC cannot actually stump skybird Lowkey.

TCC and you just need to trust me and vote Zulfy and I'll try and salvage something out of this mess.

Why are you so eager to end the day, Drixx?

ABR could be dead in the space of a few posts and people could easily claim to not have understood what was going on and we could have a terrible outcome and a gigantic clusterfuck that dwarfs the one we have right now.

Zulfy needs to die, and it needs to happen before scum figure out a way to take advantage of this situation and sew a ton of confusion in the process.

You also have correctly discerned that there are things I don't want to say openly.

[Drixx]

Mechanics Semantics (especially when multiple people are obviously confused and there are multiple posts in here and in the MC party chat showing that the intent was to hammer and I in fact had the ability to hammer) should never get in the way of the actual intent of the players.

Drixx, It is what it is. Tomorrow I'll even self-vote for you idiots that want to lynch me.

I'll happily lynch the shit out of Zulfy but chill and wait for everyone. No need to rush the lynch.

Lowkey, how come you want everyone to chill and wait but you weren't even going to give me a chance to get home and give a last reads list?

For what it's worth, Skybird; I supported flipping you because it would bring clarity to several things that are obfuscated right now. I don't have a really strong read on you in one direction or the other. Your flip has a bit of a spiderweb impact on other things though. I would have preferred people be willing to let TCC stump you so you could still talk and help if you flipped town, but people are super paranoid of 3rd parties (or 3rd party claims as the case sometimes is). There's a lot of reasons for that bias but I view having someone be able to scumhunt and continue to contribute as much preferable to someone being silenced. Scum getting stumped would just not say anything or else would spam or wifom and just be ignored.

Town stumped; however, retain the ability to play to their wincon.

[Drixx]

This is great news.

This is what happens, ABR. You were desperate to have my powers wasted but theyll end up lynching you.

Cucumbers are rbed, can't vote.
Neither can ABR.
VOTE: ABR

No one is going to lynch ABR today.

Sadly it could happen very easily with the current situation, and people would even have reasonable doubt on their side about whether they realized or not. This is an awful situation and there's a reason I'm trying to get us out of it as rapidly as I can.

[Drixx]

All votes do not contact as double. Just all votes on ABR count as double.

-Cerb

And you.

[Drixx]

The primary reason for my hurry is that it will take almost nothing for ABR to be killed by this shitshow, while we have to gather together SIX people to vote on Zulfy so I can hammer him with my now outed ability.

[Drixx]

Its literally me or ABR.

You can all justify a lynch on liza however you want, that Im a loose cannon/anti town/whatever bs you wanna make up, but voting me is voting for a town player with great town utility.

Im done with ABR either way. Either he is out or I am.

Ive explained all of my actions today, you can be willfully ignorant but you can't claim a lynch on me is pro town.

You cannot be trusted. You are going to die. Period.

Okay, I totally disagree with this, but I'll go along.

VOTE: No Lynch

BIT VOTE: No Lynch

Don't be suckered KC. You just dropped all town credibility you had with me. A no lynch given what happened is 90% as bad as voting ABR would be.

[Drixx]

I don't even care anymore. I'm not trusting Drixx's judgement right now though.
I'll sheep DP or Sensei's call on this one. My opinion doesn't matter anyway.

You're only mad because I pointed out the contradiction. You listed Skybird as absolutely scum in your most recent reads. There's several people who agree one of you or her must be scum, ergo the plan to have TCC stump you if she flipped town seemed quite reasonable, especially because she was getting the crappier end of the deal.

I'm not impulsive.

I know that if you keep repeating it it sounds more credible, but I'm not impulsive.

Put yourself in my shoes in the situation that I was in during faux-twilight.

I'm not impulsive. Maybe if I repeat it too I can dispel that notion.

Pedit: No more dream combos, only tear combos

You're are absolutely impulsive and untrustworthy. Your play is the worst I've ever seen. I would prefer to have FA and Jeanne hydraing in your slot.

Yep. This is an internet forum and you have time to fiddle with BBC code before hitting submit.

Pedit: Love you too

Yep. It takes 2.5 hours to fiddle with BB code. We should totally believe that.

Good night everyone.

Cerb you gotta put the cool back in that cucumber

You don't get to say sarcastic things to people after what you've done.

Okay, I changed my mind at least a little bit. Just gotta clear this up for mollie.

mollie, please read this post, even if you don't read ANYTHING else our hydra says today.

TCC made a cogent point so it makes sense to be cautious. One day of not getting a "soul power" almost certainly won't be a loss condition for us. By the way ... am I the only one creeped out that Flum is basically taking people's souls to gain power? It's probably NAI due to the flavor of the game, but still creepy.

In saga that's exactly what the mystics do.

*waves at Mollie*

Do you still want team mafia gogurts or do you insist on shunning your pet shark?
~wgeurts

I don't trust you.

you are following whatever abr dictates.

and you just hammered before zulfy did his thing which works to YOUR benefit not town's. and abr helped you do that.

you are constantly posting out of your hydra despite being warned. this is why hydras have a bad reputation and are mot allowed in games.

you fix all of these and we will see. cos I love team!mafia gogurts thats why I tried to keep town from lynching you.

This is the post Zulfy is talking about. You're quoting us, and you say we are following whatever ABR dictates, and then you say we just hammered, doing something which works to our benefit, not towns. You then talk about posting our of our hydra, and then you say stuff about gogurts.

It's super obvious that this post is directed at our hydra. In it, you say we did something we did not do. You say that our hydra hammered, and you way ABR helped us do it.

You misrepresented what we did, and Zulfy read it and nothing else and overreacted.

Did you honestly think we had hammered at that point? Did you just screw up? Or what?

This post+Zulfy making terrible decisions is why we're in the situation we're in. I just want you to acknowledge that you DID lie about who hammered in this post.

-Cerb

Don't waste your breath Cerb. Mollie thinks you and I are "naive", "stupid", "poor players" and I don't have time to look up the other insults at the moment. She'll never admit that anything she said or did was a lie or was bad play. Wait till post game when the various PTs are unlocked and you can see her repeatedly throw Titus under the bus over and over again. One post she'll say Titus is awesomesauce and great to talk to on the phone, and the next post she's blaming Titus for everything from Watergate to race riots if she thinks it will get Sensei to trust that slot again.

Why do you think every time she starts hurling insults I quote her and tell her that I don't believe it's not personal and that it feels personal? If I fight back I lose because I'm newer to the site and I'll get smacked down, so all I can do is keep calm and keep pointing it out when it happens.

@all:

Zulfy clearly cannot be trusted. He has been asked numerous times to unvote but he's counting on two suckers to vote ABR so that he can inflict maximum damage with his bullshit play. Trusting him is supremely foolish. Just vote him and get it over with before we lose someone useful who can be {within reason} trusted.

[Drixx]

@Drixx, I agree with what you say but let's be honest. Chances are Zulfy is town. So is Abr. Best play is no lynch.

If we could trust Zulfy I would agree with you ... but we cannot.

I don't even care anymore. I'm not trusting Drixx's judgement right now though.
I'll sheep DP or Sensei's call on this one. My opinion doesn't matter anyway.

You're only mad because I pointed out the contradiction. You listed Skybird as absolutely scum in your most recent reads. There's several people who agree one of you or her must be scum, ergo the plan to have TCC stump you if she flipped town seemed quite reasonable, especially because she was getting the crappier end of the deal.

I'm mad in the context of the game. I trusted you there was a good reason for the suspicion, and it ended up being that I was distancing from the lynch? Despite pushing for it all the way to the end? Maybe if you show what time period I distanced from it I'll understand you're thought process.

There's a pretty clear either/or situation going on with you and Skybird. I had come down on the side of thinking Skybird was probably the scum, but there was doubt. The idea of having you stumped if she flipped town was something I endorsed because I saw you distancing from your hard stance on her once ABR suggested that you be stumped if she flipped town. That showed that you were

way

less certain than you led the rest of us to believe. Once it was on the table that if you were wrong you would pay a price (but still retain your voice permanently and the inability to be silenced and therefore could still play to your wincon), you clearly got cold feet.

I already quoted it last night so asking me to quote it again is just smokescreen.

[Drixx]

It was definitely after the point where I didn't quickhammer like Drixx apparently wanted me to do, because ABR didn't mention his scum read of me yet so he didn't say I should be stumped yet.

I thought it was super interesting that you didn't hammer when I put Skybird at L-1. Your posts seemed to imply that you felt you had a

right

to hammering and gaining souls to empower yourself, and you wanted to see who was going to "steal" that

right

from you. In fact, I believe you used that exact phrasing. You waited to see if they would "steal" it from you.

I know that had a serious negative impact on my read of you, because you had very slowly grown from being very widely suspected to being lightly trusted, and you were acting like you were mod confirmed town or something with the way you were talking.

[Drixx]

But it's really not relevant Flum ... TCC cannot act tonight and will be vulnerable tonight which means they may not be around tomorrow at all. Set aside your frustration that you aren't as trusted as you wish you were and focus on the situation we're in right now.

You want to leave alive someone who has already done serious harm, and intends to do more serious harm. He will be capable of killing whomever he wants basically single handedly as early as tomorrow, and it just gets worse after that. He refuses to unvote ABR.

So why are you griping and sniping about something that isn't even an issue any more? There is no lynch on skybird and TCC can't stump you, so you are essentially dumping irrelevant noise into the game.

---

The only thing that matters right now is that Zulfy threw a temper tantrum and drastically diminished a very strong town position. He cannot be trusted because he refuses to unvote ABR and all it's going to take is someone lurking like DGB to read that we can only vote Zulfy or ABR and suddenly ABR is going to be dead because of this temper tantrum Zulfy threw.

We need to lynch Zulfy today before he hurts town any more than he already has. I get that you might be grateful that he possibly saved your skin (if you are absolutely dead wrong on your read on skybird), but you are actively trying to distract people from the reality of what Zulfy did, how dangerous he is going forward, and the need to kill him today. Why are you doing that? Why do you want Zulfy to be around to wreak more havoc? I mean ... we've got open questions about WotC on Zulfy in the thread, and if people are posting that sort of thing publicly, what do you think is being said privately?

But you want to argue about a what if that can never happen now?

If you are town: prove it. Drop the nonsense distractions and help me keep this disaster from getting worse.

[Drixx]

I was beginning to suspect Yos and I was curious if he would try to steal my potential power away. And for the last time, he was at L-2.
I'm done with this conversation.

My double slash put Skybird at L-1 and you could have hammered. Look at my ISO.

[Drixx]

@drixx,

I really hate the shade you threw on Mollie there. People get emotional. We aren't robots that can be plugged into a computer. Sure did she overreact, yes. Yet she wasn't throwing me under the bus in any manner that I didn't deserve. I ruined her plans, despite promising not to. To expect her not to be pissed is ridiculous. I am still learning how to improve, and the more emotional posts help me the best. the ego fests and my way is the right way are not helping. I will admit I was part of the problem.

You don't get to attack Mollie for that though. If I got a problem, you'll hear about it. I am not some lost puppy dog needing my ego shielded from my own mistakes.

Capiche?

Sorry but no, not Capiche. Mollie attacked me and Cerb and others. She also literally threw you under the bus in an attempt to curry favor with the MC. It happened. I don't care why it happened. Mollie has made it really clear that she considers quite a few of us to be equivalent to subhuman unwashed savages compared to her. She keeps saying things repeatedly even when I point out that it's unpleasant for us. There is no defense for someone who repeats nastiness when it's politely pointed out to them that it makes others feel attacked.

[Drixx]

How do you still think this is about the stump thing. I'm done talking to you until you read my posts.
You can call it griping but I was just responding to your post saying I was angry at you for basically no good reason.

I actually figured out why you are trying to noise up the thread. You intend to hammer ABR for power. It makes complete sense now.