SAGA FRONTIER MAFIA (GAME END)

[Drunken Pirates]

I still think someone should make a reality tv show based off mafia.

reck wanted to do a survivor game weekend at his place and film it.

you shld see the f2f mafia screaming matches pple get into here lol. I always die early regardless of alignment cos I have an obvs tell and every1 knows it BUT I WILL GET THEM SOMEDAY

I totally think it is videotaping worthy tho I can hear the screaming going on from the dead room.

[itlepip]

I am so shit at f2f. Its not even that people can read me well, they just always scum read me and kill me early no matter my alignment.

[Drunken Pirates]

@ drixx -

no, I said we had the potential to be confirmable on d1.

all this shows is that you pple don't read a thing I say.

I don't give a flying fuck if he is your IRL friend. he is getting lynched TODAY even if I have to yell, scream, sell a kidney and throw a hissy fit in order to do it.

its what we are doing.

Can you quote that? I clearly missed it.

I am not going to go trawling through d1's 815 posts to find a claim that you shld already have had marked down.

eta: @ itelpip - if I am scum I am lynched if I am town I am nked COS I AM OBVS TOWN. my face turns red and I can't help it if some1 asks me if I am scum and every1 knows this which is why it is the first thing pple do in a game. I once tried to imagine that every1 was naked when I was scum and bluff my way out of it but all it did was traumatize me.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

@ drixx -

no, I said we had the potential to be confirmable on d1.

all this shows is that you pple don't read a thing I say.

I don't give a flying fuck if he is your IRL friend. he is getting lynched TODAY even if I have to yell, scream, sell a kidney and throw a hissy fit in order to do it.

its what we are doing.

Can you quote that? I clearly missed it.

I am not going to go trawling through d1's 815 posts to find a claim that you shld already have had marked down.

eta: @ itelpip - if I am scum I am lynched if I am town I am nked COS I AM OBVS TOWN. my face turns red and I can't help it if some1 asks me if I am scum and every1 knows this which is why it is the first thing pple do in a game. I once tried to imagine that every1 was naked when I was scum and bluff my way out of it but all it did was traumatize me.

Fine. I will. It should be simple enough to just do a search for the letters conf, right? or the letters mod? When I find that you made no such claim, will that change your opinion of our stump choice on N1?

-Cerb

[Rylai and Lina]

Drixx, mollie has a really bad habit of thinking saying the word "confirmable" means everyone assumes she means IC. I don't doubt somewhere she said she had a mod confirmable role. That isn't saying she's mod confirmed town at 10 players. That, I am positive she has never said.

R&L, pick one: Either you believe our claim or you don't. Proceed from that. If you don't believe our claim, outline why, and I'll tell you why you're wrong. If you do believe our claim, we've told you over nad over again why lynching us is bad play.

Actually, I will address these things.

1 - the tree stump and his flavor claim is not making him 3p. he can be still in group scum

<<<<True. You need to decide if you believe that I'm group scum in spite of these reasons taken from 7425:

Spoiler: Reasons

1) If you think the fire vote is scum, it's absurd for us to put it on ourselves and THEN fake claim an autolynch role. Might as well have claimed town tree stumper, without the BP. 2)We didn't self hammer and deny fluminator or skybird power when the opportunity came and it seems unlikely that we'd survive(this is kinda null though, if we were scum that would be taking the scum team from 3 down to 2, so it might not be something I'd consider worth it), 3) We claimed to have shot at fucking DP of all people. We could have claimed to have shot at anyone, and NOBODY would have been able to say otherwise, because we already know what the tracker/watcher was doing on N1, so unless there are others and they decided to target us, there's way safer targets to say we shot at rather than alienating one of the stronger voices in the town.

I already answered all your 3 reasons and why their BS 1) I really consider the fire vote as a scum utility. and Yes i expect that scum vote to be happen on a scum group member. why? so you can say what your just saying. spescially after considering the other two with this vote town.

2 - we can definitely assume that , the tree stump is not his only power

<<<there is actually no reason to assume that? I fail to see how being an unlimited strongman+unlimited BP means I must have more power?

I have so many reasons for assuming this that I explained in detail in MC group. I feel no need to explain them here or listen to your reasonings about it.

3 - I'm sure there is an agenda that he felt he can claim this today and ask to live for a while (MC party please)

<<WTF? I was pressured into it by being put at L-1 and by having the double voting Sensei say if I didn't claim within 30 minutes he was going to lynch me.

The point is why you claimed your scum role not a fake one.Its clear you want to stay alive for more days. I'm not sure what misery it will bring for town , But I'm certain something fishy is about this.

4 - I won't let scum live

<<I'm not scum, so this doesn't mean anything. Even if I were scum, it's not a point you can add to alist like this because it doesn't mean anything.

As town I need to lynch whoever can flip me. you can flip me so your scum and you can't win with me.

5 - tree stumping has basically no difference from killing - only that the person is free to talk.

<<<Yes, you are correct. Why is this relevant?

That your a treat in the view of town members and you need to die

-Cerb

[Rylai and Lina]

oh I forgot to comment about 2 and 3 in spoiler thing

2 ) as you said its null though

3 ) so ? being honest about night targets is making people town these days?!

[itlepip]

Amber is the color I use to mark up posts, I think someone asked about that.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Drixx, mollie has a really bad habit of thinking saying the word "confirmable" means everyone assumes she means IC. I don't doubt somewhere she said she had a mod confirmable role. That isn't saying she's mod confirmed town at 10 players. That, I am positive she has never said.

R&L, pick one: Either you believe our claim or you don't. Proceed from that. If you don't believe our claim, outline why, and I'll tell you why you're wrong. If you do believe our claim, we've told you over nad over again why lynching us is bad play.

Actually, I will address these things.

1 - the tree stump and his flavor claim is not making him 3p. he can be still in group scum

<<<<True. You need to decide if you believe that I'm group scum in spite of these reasons taken from 7425:

Spoiler: Reasons

1) If you think the fire vote is scum, it's absurd for us to put it on ourselves and THEN fake claim an autolynch role. Might as well have claimed town tree stumper, without the BP. 2)We didn't self hammer and deny fluminator or skybird power when the opportunity came and it seems unlikely that we'd survive(this is kinda null though, if we were scum that would be taking the scum team from 3 down to 2, so it might not be something I'd consider worth it), 3) We claimed to have shot at fucking DP of all people. We could have claimed to have shot at anyone, and NOBODY would have been able to say otherwise, because we already know what the tracker/watcher was doing on N1, so unless there are others and they decided to target us, there's way safer targets to say we shot at rather than alienating one of the stronger voices in the town.

I already answered all your 3 reasons and why their BS 1) I really consider the fire vote as a scum utility. and Yes i expect that scum vote to be happen on a scum group member. why? so you can say what your just saying. spescially after considering the other two with this vote town.

2 - we can definitely assume that , the tree stump is not his only power

<<<there is actually no reason to assume that? I fail to see how being an unlimited strongman+unlimited BP means I must have more power?

I have so many reasons for assuming this that I explained in detail in MC group. I feel no need to explain them here or listen to your reasonings about it.

3 - I'm sure there is an agenda that he felt he can claim this today and ask to live for a while (MC party please)

<<WTF? I was pressured into it by being put at L-1 and by having the double voting Sensei say if I didn't claim within 30 minutes he was going to lynch me.

The point is why you claimed your scum role not a fake one.Its clear you want to stay alive for more days. I'm not sure what misery it will bring for town , But I'm certain something fishy is about this.

4 - I won't let scum live

<<I'm not scum, so this doesn't mean anything. Even if I were scum, it's not a point you can add to alist like this because it doesn't mean anything.

As town I need to lynch whoever can flip me. you can flip me so your scum and you can't win with me.

5 - tree stumping has basically no difference from killing - only that the person is free to talk.

<<<Yes, you are correct. Why is this relevant?

That your a treat in the view of town members and you need to die

-Cerb

1) You didn't answer very well. Why is the fire vote something to scumread me for, but something to townread others for? Why would I mention the possibility of the fire vote being used by scum to buy town cred/get themselves MC, with regards to yosarian, and then USE the ploy I brough to the attention of the town literally a thousand posts before you mentioned it? You didn't answer the other points at all as far as i can tell.

2) Okay, evasion. This is just stupid tunnel vision playing by rote crap, the same thing DP is doing. The only person who is actually *thinking* on our wagon is Yosarian.

3) Understood. So this is a useless point, like the 2 below. It's not actually an argument that I'm scum.

4/5) Do you lynch town vigs automatically? Because everything you're saying about us, applies to a town vig. If I had claimed this exact same role, except lied and said I was town, and maybe added some fluff like "When I stump someone with a vig shot, I gain a bulletproof," would you lynch that slot? Do you see my point?

oh I forgot to comment about 2 and 3 in spoiler thing

2 ) as you said its null though

3 ) so ? being honest about night targets is making people town these days?!

True, 2 is null. It's not a matter of being honest about night targets...it's the fact that there is no benefit to scum!me in claiming to have targeted DP. I could have claimed to have targeted someone unflipped but widely scumread by the people on my wagon. THAT would have been the optimal person to claim, because claiming I targeted actual scum(which I could have done, because the friggin mod confirmed that a stump+kill on the same target results in the targets death, and which we ALMOST did) would have seemed too "perfect".

The only thing in your 5 points that's actually relevant is #1, so I'm just waiting for you to address my counterpoints.

-Cerb

[Drunken Pirates]

Varsoona, Could a treestumper (if one exists) treestump themselves?

[ZZZX]

@ZZZX - Man you gotta stop being mad at me about SMITE. I replaced into that with the fake claim gambit already made by the slot. I just did my best with what I had. There's a huge difference between this situation and that one. In SMITE I was scum with a fake claim. I wasn't actually a third party so my play in that game shouldn't color how you view 3rd parties, as long as you can be relatively sure that they are actually third party.

I'm not mad at you. That was great play.

But my trust is harder to get

Mollie explain like I'm 5 what we would gain from lynching cc now instead of say.. Tomorrow?

[Drixx]

R&L's post in the party PT was nothing to write home about. Not compelling and I'm sure neither of them would want me to paraphrase it here even.

[Varsoon]

Trade:

Useless Ornamental Ring from Baccarat

To:

Yosarian2

In Return:

Undying loyalty to Sensei

Nothing

This trade has been completed.
Yosarian2 is now the one who holds the Useless Ornamental Ring.

[Varsoon]

@Varsoon - Do acquired abilities (techniques) which could give someone a kill (For example, the second sword technique grants a night kill if the person hammers the lynch) count as a killing ability in the same way a Vigilante or Serial killer kill ability does? In a hypothetical situation where someone's win condition is to "eliminate" anyone with a killing ability, would abilities acquired by sparking techniques need to be "eliminated" to meet that hypothetical win condition?

I can't answer that question.

@Varsoon: Can more than one fist technique be used in the same day phase, without the usage of Dream Super Combo? Basically, if someone had the first two levels of Fist techniques, could they use both Sliding and Suplex on the same target, in the same day phase?

Yes. Unless otherwise stated, you can use as many abilities during the day phase as you like.

[Yosarian2]

Cerb: even if you are 100% telling the truth, you are still a threat to the town and to the town win condition. You could very well kill us all and win as a SK, by your own admission. Any attempt to contain you is risky and imperfect for us and prone to eventually fail, and you know it.

Now if there was someone else I was almost sure was mafia then maybe I'd lynch them before you, but let's be clear here; the town is better off if you are dead.

But why would I do that Yosarian? Assuming I am 100% telling the truth, that is only possible if we end up in a 3p situation going into the night phase, and scum shoot town and I shoot scum, or we shoot one another, or whatever. Like, that whole scenario is ONLY a risk in super late game, which I have NO chance of being part of. It's purely a paranoia lynch at this point, NOT a logical lynch. Scum HAVE to lynch me in 3p lylo, so we couldn't end up in a situation where they'd move to lynch the last townie over me. AND every single suggestion I've made has included the caveat that I be lynched after we get 2 scum and the game isnt over, or when we hit 7p alive, whichever comes first. Hell, 8 people alive, since we're at 14, and that means 3 day/night cycles without extra kills and allows for an extra kill to happen on the third day and not result in a town loss if I were lying.

-Cerb

mollie: are you going to answer my questions?

This is all total BS, for two separate reasons.

1. "Lynch me when you get to 7 players alive" is obvious nonsense, because we clearly can't lynch if we get to lynch or lose.

2. If you get to a 3 player lylo, then the most likely result is you win and everyone dies, because you're bulletproof and have a nightkill. Probably a no-lynch happens, you kill the last townie, and it doesn't matter what the scum does; and then you and the last scum face off and you win. Just like how the bulletproof SK generally wins lynch or lose situations. Only way the town could stop you at that point would be by lynching you and letting the mafia win.

Really, the town only has 2 decent choices here. Lynch you today, right now, and eliminate the threat you pose to the town, or let you live for the rest of the game and just hope that somehow things turn out OK. That second option is especially dicey because you're bulletproof, so if we don't lynch you right now, you probably do survive until the end of the game. All your talk about "containing you" and "oh if I do something wrong you can lynch me then" or whatever is just that, talk; none of it is likely to work for the town, and again I'm pretty sure you know that.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Mollie! i went looking through the ISO for you, and found things that surprised me actually.

2951: Titus includes herself on a list of "conftown" including Drixx, R&L's names, and Lowkey's name.

4725: you mentioned you have a "confirmable role"

4739: you say we have a confirmable town role. that's closer to saying you're mod confirmed town, but it's not actually saying that, or at least it's certainly not clear. If this is what you were referring to, then I must say I read it as you just saying you had a confirmable role.

4758: you say town confirmable again.

So, you say you have a confirmable town role. You never say you will be mod confirmed town/IC at a certain point. I didn't read *any* of this as actually saying you could become mod confirmed town on the first time through though, so all I can really say is sorry, be clearer with what you're saying? I mean, Yosarian grilled you about being specific and clearing this up for like 5 pages and nobody spoke up to clear it up, so it was obviously *NOT* something anyone caught. It isn't until D2 that you say anything more explicit about being mod confirmed town.

-Cerb

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Cerb: even if you are 100% telling the truth, you are still a threat to the town and to the town win condition. You could very well kill us all and win as a SK, by your own admission. Any attempt to contain you is risky and imperfect for us and prone to eventually fail, and you know it.

Now if there was someone else I was almost sure was mafia then maybe I'd lynch them before you, but let's be clear here; the town is better off if you are dead.

But why would I do that Yosarian? Assuming I am 100% telling the truth, that is only possible if we end up in a 3p situation going into the night phase, and scum shoot town and I shoot scum, or we shoot one another, or whatever. Like, that whole scenario is ONLY a risk in super late game, which I have NO chance of being part of. It's purely a paranoia lynch at this point, NOT a logical lynch. Scum HAVE to lynch me in 3p lylo, so we couldn't end up in a situation where they'd move to lynch the last townie over me. AND every single suggestion I've made has included the caveat that I be lynched after we get 2 scum and the game isnt over, or when we hit 7p alive, whichever comes first. Hell, 8 people alive, since we're at 14, and that means 3 day/night cycles without extra kills and allows for an extra kill to happen on the third day and not result in a town loss if I were lying.

-Cerb

mollie: are you going to answer my questions?

This is all total BS, for two separate reasons.

1. "Lynch me when you get to 7 players alive" is obvious nonsense, because we clearly can't lynch if we get to lynch or lose.

2. If you get to a 3 player lylo, then the most likely result is you win and everyone dies, because you're bulletproof and have a nightkill. Probably a no-lynch happens, you kill the last townie, and it doesn't matter what the scum does; and then you and the last scum face off and you win. Just like how the bulletproof SK generally wins lynch or lose situations. Only way the town could stop you at that point would be by lynching you and letting the mafia win.

Really, the town only has 2 decent choices here. Lynch you today, right now, and eliminate the threat you pose to the town, or let you live for the rest of the game and just hope that somehow things turn out OK. That second option is especially dicey because you're bulletproof, so if we don't lynch you right now, you probably do survive until the end of the game. All your talk about "containing you" and "oh if I do something wrong you can lynch me then" or whatever is just that, talk; none of it is likely to work for the town, and again I'm pretty sure you know that.

Yosarian, how is the 7 players alive thing nonsense? We have a SK and 2 scum flips. Do you think there are 3 scum AND me remaining? It's far more likely that there are *2* scum and me remaining. If there are 2 scum, and me, then in order to ensure that I'm not groupscum hiding behind this claim, you lynch me at 7 people, and you have successfully passed LYLO #1. If you seriously think there are 3 scum plus me left, then sure, the same things apply, you just lynch us at 9 players instead of 7. There is nothing nonsensical about it.

And yes, of course the most likely result in a 3p lylo is I win, EXCEPT WHY WOULD SCUM EVER LET ME LIVE KNOWING IF I LIVE THEY LOSE?? I've made my claim, whoever the last townie remaining is gets to choose between either lynching the other person, or lynching me, the suspicious person who claimed 3p ages ago.

Obviously they lynch me, and scum vote with them, and they get endgamed.

So, yeah, 3p lylo is not something I want, because I never actually live through that in the current game state or any foreseeable future game states. The whole point is moot though, because I'm telling you to friggin kill us before we get to that point.

Here is what I want to see happen:

Over the next 2-3 day/night phases, we lynch 2 scum/you let me shoot 2 scum(14-6=8 still alive), the game ends, and we all get to win.

If that doesn't happen, on the 3rd or 4th day, or if the game doesn't end after we've caught the second scum, YOU LYNCH ME AND KILL ME.

Obviously the entire plan is wholly self serving, but it doesn't hurt you. It just gives us a chance to actually win, instead of losing as a penalty for claiming honestly.

-Cerb

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Oh, and your other paragraph, that juxtaposes those two possibilities as the only ones? Yeah, it's wrong, because you can fucking lynch me anytime you want prior to/at lylo. How are you not understanding that Yosarian? I understand that you think if you don't lynch me now, we'll no longer be "on the table" as a lynch because everyone will resign themselves to just letting us live, but that's extremely unlikely to happen, especially with DP who is never going to die remaining in the game. They will be there yelling at people to lynch us as soon as there appears to be the slightest chance that keeping us alive will hurt town.

-Cerb

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Let me make this perfectly clear Yosarian: I understand that town has to lynch me before end game. That is absolutely the correct play to make. All I want is the chance to actually win the game with you BEFORE we get to the situation where I have to be lynched. It's not impossible for the game to end in a town victory either tonight if you let me shoot nad choose wisely, or tomorrow if we lynch wisely.


Also, thanks Varsoon. So, yeah, we can quite literally have zulfy shut off my vote, I can vote to confirm that his ability worked on me, and then have him use his power to shut off my stumping for the night. The risks there are 1) that he's scum, which is as likely as Sensei/R&L being scum, or 2) that I have an activated ascetic power of some sort that I can use *after* he uses the vote power. So, to avoid that second scenario, he can target me with both powers in the same post, and then if I can vote after that, it means I've protected myself and the powers didn't work. If I can't vote, it means they did work and I'm blocked for tonight.

-Cerb

[Varsoon]

Varsoona, Could a treestumper (if one exists) treestump themselves?

Depends on if the role itself specifies that.
For instance, most protection roles specify they can't self-protect.

[Drixx]

@Varsoon - Do acquired abilities (techniques) which could give someone a kill (For example, the second sword technique grants a night kill if the person hammers the lynch) count as a killing ability in the same way a Vigilante or Serial killer kill ability does? In a hypothetical situation where someone's win condition is to "eliminate" anyone with a killing ability, would abilities acquired by sparking techniques need to be "eliminated" to meet that hypothetical win condition?

I can't answer that question.

@Varsoon: Can more than one fist technique be used in the same day phase, without the usage of Dream Super Combo? Basically, if someone had the first two levels of Fist techniques, could they use both Sliding and Suplex on the same target, in the same day phase?

Yes. Unless otherwise stated, you can use as many abilities during the day phase as you like.

New Question:

If a player sparks techniques and gains a technique that could give them the ability to kill, would that player then be considered to have a killing role?

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, how is the 7 players alive thing nonsense? We have a SK and 2 scum flips. Do you think there are 3 scum AND me remaining? It's far more likely that there are *2* scum and me remaining. If there are 2 scum, and me, then in order to ensure that I'm not groupscum hiding behind this claim, you lynch me at 7 people, and you have successfully passed LYLO #1. If you seriously think there are 3 scum plus me left, then sure, the same things apply, you just lynch us at 9 players instead of 7. There is nothing nonsensical about it.

Are you really going to pretend you haven't gamed this all out? Because I'm pretty sure you have.

If we say "Ok, we lynch CC when there are 7 people left alive", then the game won't get to a state where there are "7 people left alive",

because you have a nightkill

. You have the ability to kill someone that night and make it so there are only 6 people left alive, and then, gee, we can't lynch you, how convinenet.

I mean, maybe we still have a roleblocker alive that can stop you, maybe we don't. That would be a hell of a thing to bet the game on.

Plus, this probably goes without saying, but it's much better for the town if using a day 3 lynch on you instead of a day 5 lynch or whatever; the later a lynch is, the more info the town has, the more the lynch is worth.

"Wait a few days and lynch me later" is really not a realistic option. And, again, you've clearly thought this all through, so I'm pretty sure you already know this.

And yes, of course the most likely result in a 3p lylo is I win, EXCEPT WHY WOULD SCUM EVER LET ME LIVE KNOWING IF I LIVE THEY LOSE??

The scum can't kill you, and the townie won't vote for you, because the townie will hope that you'll kill the scum at night instead of him. You won't, of course, you'll murder the last townie and then dance on his grave laughing, but hope springs eternal, and a small hope is better then a guarenteed scum win. So it'll go to no-lynch, and then you'll murder everyone and win.

This isn't a long-shot, either; if we don't lynch you today, it is very likely to happen.

[Drunken Pirates]

@ yoyo - are you going to answer my question? 5th time I am asking you!

[Varsoon]

New Question:

If a player sparks techniques and gains a technique that could give them the ability to kill, would that player then be considered to have a killing role?

Again; I'm not answering questions of this nature.

[Yosarian2]

@ yoyo - are you going to answer my question? 5th time I am asking you!

What is the question, exactally?

[Varsoon]

The localization team was really nerdy. I'm not entirely sure how much that the English localization differs from the original Japanese, but there are a lot of nerdy references. For instance, the strongest armor in the game is called the Spriggan Suit, named after the powerful suit worn in the anime, Spriggan.