Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6318
- Joined: July 25, 2006
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6318
- Joined: July 25, 2006
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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From page 3, last I remember:
52- Lil votes sheep to L-3 [+, good pressure]
54- chaos votes wheme, asks what he thinks [-, possible derailment?]
65- hawk calls lil suspicious because he was "the last one to vote [sheep]" [-, what??]
76- AJ calls out hawk for being chicken [+]
80s-90s- Ter and naomi banter [ter looks bad, naomi looks good]
114- Lil explains sheep vote, three times, then promptly unvotes [-, why?]
120s- frogger pushes sheep wagon [+, good]
142- sheep, Lil, Wheme lead w/ 3 votes
158- sheep OMGUS' frogger
171- sheep points out ter's WKing, then reversal when wagon dies [+, hadn't noticed this]
200- EC enters to call out gerry [-, not particularly revealing]
213- AJ calls out hawk again [+, yep]
222- frogger joins hawk-wagon [+]
223- sheep, too [-, good vote, but why he and frogger besties all of a sudden?]
229- frogger notices, returns to sheep [+]
274- naomi post-walls, has NO scum candidates [-, weak]
282- chaos again defends sheep [-, twice now he's derailed]
284- ter votes chaos [+, good new wagon]
293- sheep and hawk lead with three votes
315- wheme calls hawk scum for jumping on "weak" sheep wagon [-, why weak?]
324- EC again jumps in to vote a lurkerish player [-, why not, say, Lowell then?]
346- penguin enters, votes sheep [-, opportunistic]
Some scums:
VOTE: chaos
Chaos looks to be making a specific and deliberate attempt to derial the sheep wagon early on. All of his posts are either subtle attempts to derail the sheep wagon or him asking "hey I wonder what player X think of the sheep wagon?" His entire game so far seems to exist only to make sure sheep isn't killed... without it appearing as so. This is protecting a scumbuddy or WKing a town to pocket him (I'm leaning the former), but either way chaos is certainly scum.
fos hawk
The way he talks in 65 and 75 he takes as given that sheep is not scum and the wagon on him was serving some other purpose than to lynch scum. But why? I notice he's not the only one to do this (Naomi does as well), but the fact that he doesn't even consider the leading wagon could be scum (or is even serious) reads like he already knows the answer.
fos naomi
Maybe someone is going to jump in and tell me there's a meta I'm missing, but to post so many times and not have any scumreads is just bad. I think she's at least partially playing up the "omg I can't decide, it's so hard to find scum!" angle to avoid having to take a stance.
Some maybes:
frogger. As a rule I'm very, very skeptical of "that guy who everyone townreads." Frogger is no exception. I don't have a playstyle bone to pick here, but tonally he's not quite where I'd expect him to be as a widely-assumed pro-town player. tl:dr I'm putting a pin in this one.
sheep. I read him as very scum at the start and less so as I read on, largely due to the associative things happening around him. He starting to feel less like obvscum and more like opportunistic target. His brute force responses to his critics read less scholarly than oppressive, so none of his defenses really stick for me.
EC. This guy is just trying to hide. Don't have a strong read but there it is.
Some towns:
AJ. The only real, strong townread I have in this game. His calling out hawk posts are spot on, and he's in general a good kind of lurker. The one that shows up, is right, then leaves.
ter. Went 180 on this guy. Thought he looked bad in his first interactions with naomi, but now I look back and I think I misread that passage. I've liked the wide net he's casting and the way he engages.
Whoever is left, null, I guess.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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I'd do either, but didn't want to give up on my top choice until/unless it isn't viable. I don't see a deadline or anything.In post 358, Cooperative Sheep wrote:@Lowell - considering their relative wagon sizes and that you don't seem to like either player's play - why did you choose to hop on the Chaos wagon as opposed to the more vibrant Hawk wagon?-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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It's not your level of participation. I'd be a hypocrite for calling out a lurker just for lurking. The problem with you is that you show up and offer nothing but an attack on another lurker/quasi-lurker. It looks like you're avoiding conflict intentionally.In post 360, ECMitchell wrote:Lowell, I think I'd rather take the infrequent participation versus the frequent presence. Gerroat has posted plenty but actually said nothing yet. That rubs me the wrong way, and that doesn't actively aid town in anything. WhemeStar has posted a good chunk of fluff at well but at least has contributed something for me to work off of—and now I've tried to dig deeper into that.
The other lurkers aren't off my radar. Just not my focus right now.
I'll be busy for the most of the day and will be back when I can. For what it's worth, right now I'm feeling that Cooperative Sheep, Terata, and WhemeStar could be a scum team.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Is it? Naomi crafted an entire case to OMGUS my FOS. That matters. And EC is clearly panicking. I'm through the looking glass, here, don't try to rattle me.In post 416, Fro99er wrote:
this post is ewIn post 414, Lowell wrote:Can I just point out that I merely put an FOS on both EC and naomi and they both immediately flipped their shit on me? I am all powerful. Fear me.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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I don't think so. EC hasn't had much of a strong stance on anything or anyone the whole game, but clearly is hypersensitive to his image. How is this town?
Ditto naomi. I find it hard to believe the case on me... which spans since the beginning of the game, materialized irrespective of my scumread of her. She, too, is protecting her.
Call this stylistic, but how often do you see non-scum players so sensitive to their image?-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Well, fine. But I've played a lot of games and only when I'm aligned with scum do I find myself frantically searching the thread for every ill mention of my name. It feels like that's what both naomi and EC are doing here. But if you're saying you don't agree with the general philosophy there, then not sure what the point in arguing with you is.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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I don't know what beetlejuicing means. What I'm saying is I fos'd naomi and she came back with a case against me and voted me. What I'm also saying is that had I not mentioned her in my post (or mentioned her as town) I bet she would not have done that. To me it looks like a visceral, panicked OMGUS response to unwanted attention. Which is different than, "you said X, here is why I disagree with X". So, whatever you call that, it's bad.In post 430, Fro99er wrote:
Are you saying naomi and EC are beetlejuicing? Or are you criticizing them for defending themselves?In post 426, Lowell wrote:Well, fine. But I've played a lot of games and only when I'm aligned with scum do I find myself frantically searching the thread for every ill mention of my name. It feels like that's what both naomi and EC are doing here.
It's pretty natural to defend oneself. Chaos just defended himself against me, and that was one of his only 7 posts at the time he made that post. How is that different from what they did?-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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In post 471, ECMitchell wrote:I think he's made an excellent case against WhemeStar. Are you basing your town read on him entirely on that?
I don't know the status of my vote or various wagons, but I'm ready to vote EC. This is classic derailment.In post 474, ECMitchell wrote:
And you say that with 100% confidence? WhemeStarIn post 472, Terata wrote:But nvm that for now, I just caught a scumisscum, not just probably?-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Okay but this isn't really what the rest of us have been saying. And either way is bad.In post 625, ECMitchell wrote:
Agreed, there's a difference there. But that's not what you accused me of doing in your post. "Doesn't feel drive to solve," is an entirely different statement from "is trying too hard to appear like he's solving."In post 622, Terata wrote:there's a difference (a big one) between trying to appear to solve, which is the feeling im getting from you, and not caring at all, which is Gerry. And i don't have a problem with the fact you're scum reading me. But that a big part of why you're scum reading me is w/w with Wheme, is insane in a bad way
You're all over the place my man.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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So did you see wheme's claim? Or is this your way of saying you don't believe it?
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Chaos earns some townpoints for this if Wheme is town, and some scumpoints if Wheme is scum. And vice versa. This is clear distancing on a fakeclaim, but good aggression that I doubt scum would do if the claim is true.In post 686, ChaosOmega wrote:
I mean, I guess I don't know why you're asking this. If you don't scumread him, then don't vote to lynch him? If you're curious as to why you should vote Wheme, peruse my ISO, it's not very long. I believe the claim from an ability standpoint, just not an alignment one.In post 685, Hawk wrote:
I don't nesscarily scumread Wheme but I can see the arguments for why he's scum. I'm more inclined to believe the claim than not. So Chaos from someone who isn't sold but isn't unwilling to lynch Wheme why should I vote Wheme here? Why is it better for me to go against my belief that Wheme is actually town PR and buy the case that he's scum fake claiming?In post 641, ChaosOmega wrote:
Open question to anyone that scumreads Wheme but doesn't want to lynch them because of the Rolestopper claim: Why? What benefit are you hoping to gain by giving them a night to work? Even if they are town, their power is neutered now because the scum know they have to play around a protection.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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I def see the possibility of "distancing via fake(ish) attacks" going on here. Wheme flips scum and chaos says "see I told you the claim might be fake, I'm town!" I less see the possibility that wheme is town but chaos is scum. Not sure what scum chaos would have to gain from picking on town PR wheme when he could just not comment at all. Yes, I admit this is WIFOM, but as scum most people don't take those kind of chances.In post 690, Fro99er wrote:Lowell what are you even talking about? You think chaos has been bussing wheme all day, when I made a huge wall post about how I thought chaos was manipulating wheme.
No.
Just no. I think Chaos and Wheme are either both town, or one is town one is scum. There is ZERO chance both are scum.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Okay a day late.
From 700:
718- EC says Wheme and Chaos could both be scum
719- wheme pushes chaoswagon
723- mods should stop letting lil in games, all he does is replace out
730s- hawk and frogger argue about sheep and gerry, among others [+, hawk looks good here]
747- frog points out why one of wheme and chaos are scum, but not both [+, good point]
751- wheme leads w/ 4 votes
759- unknown enters for lil [+, I like almost all of this]
804- hawk says wheme is town based on what he knows about setup
960s- wheme calls gerry town for not caring, ali/frog not so sure
970s- chaos wagon starts to move
1030- ali makes case against gerry
1036- chaos wants hawk to semi-claim
1043- gerry claims PR, calls ali scum
1102- wheme leads with 4 votes
1111- wheme says her wagon has "0 resistance" [-, don't agree at all]
1150- unknown votes new wagon to "get thoughts out" [-, other ways to do this]
Count me in the camp who doubt these are all pro-town powerroles. The circumstances around wheme's claim are the worst (he was under pressure), but hawk's backing makes it slightly better for me. Chaos' claim didn't come under pressure (IIRC), nor did gerry's, so they look better IMO. Also I think chaos took a risk asking hawk to "semi-claim"--a risk I'm not sure he'd take as scum. tl:dr I'm not that comfortable choosing between these four today.In post 1079, Fro99er wrote:So we have
Wheme - Odd-night rolestopper
Hawk - mechanically says Wheme's role makes sense as town in conjunction with his
Chaos - says Wheme's role doesn't make sense as town based off his own PR
Gerry - says he's a PR
I'm inclined to side with hawk on his argument with ali. Ali's reaction (and subsequent OMGUS) of gerry reads a little performative to me.
fos ali
In 1111 wheme says that the wagon on him has no resistance, therefore he's town. I see the exact opposite. People have been talking about wheme forever yet can't get over the hump. There's clear resistance there.
I've liked unknown's entry into the game for the most part, but disliked havingfitz. Fitz' sheep case feels a bit like a sideshow. He mentions in 986 his two suspects are sheep and terata, votes sheep, then doesn't mention either of them again. He's made no effort to move the needle on this wagon, or turn it to terata. His only obsession seems to be hassling people who vote wheme. Being more concerned about people NOT voting a player, rather than wanting people TO vote a player, is a scumtell for me.
fos havingfitz
If there's no extension this fitz wagon isn't going to happen. I'll vote wheme at deadline if it comes to it, but I agree with those who say let PRs sort themselves out if we're not sure.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Well put your money where your mouth is. I'm ready for a havingfitz powerwagon.
I'd vote EC, fitz, ali, and wheme. Maybe others, I'd have to look closer.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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frogger, no, AJ, no, sheep and terata, probably not, hawk, meh. chaos, probably not.
If it comes to that or nothing at deadline I'll lynch wheme. It'll provide some info on havingfitz. If wheme flips scum fitz is probably scum too. Though yes I'd rather do in reverse.In post 1175, Fro99er wrote:
Why Wheme?In post 1174, Lowell wrote:I'd vote EC, fitz, ali, and wheme. Maybe others, I'd have to look closer.
I thought you just said you weren't comfortable voting in the PRs?-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Meaning what? I do or I don't want to lynch him?In post 1187, Alisae wrote:Lowell I REALLY feel like you're posturing over the Wheme slot.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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"No one is reading Lowell as town" is different than "Lowell is not town." I'm throwing that out as my standard disclaimer since the first is always true and the second only occasionally is.
I can see this moving towards a compromise lynch on me. So be it, if it must be for everyone to figure out what they need to figure out on D2. EC needs to be reckoned with. Every single one of his opinions is safe. This latest jump on me followed by the "oh hey I think unknown is town" are just the latest examples. Everything he does is put through the "will this opinion get me in trouble" ringer before he says anything. Fitz is dead scummy, and at least one of these powerroles is as well. My concern with the PRs is that I don't think the scum PR(s) would have claimed without some reason for thinking their claims will be "safe" for at least awhile.
Okay accusers, do your worst!-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Sure let's 1v1 if sheep is town. Actually, let's 1v1 if sheep is scum, too. K?In post 1393, Aj The Epic wrote:If sheep flips town I expect Lowell dead no questions asked REGARDLESS of my presence tomorrow.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Is it because I pointed out your obvious scumminess while sheep hasn't done shit?In post 1419, havingfitz wrote:Sheep L-1
Lowell L-3
Chaos, gerry and Unknown all with lone votes going nowhere.
Lowell has passed Sheep on my suspect list. And most others on that list are voting Sheep so I'll pass unless a NL is at risk.
I'll 1v1 you, too. 1v2, you can have AJ.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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In post 1498, Unknown1234 wrote:Wow, I lived.
If I were going to bus, this is how I'd play the start of D2.In post 1499, Unknown1234 wrote:Havingfitz was very determined to discourage my hammer vote and attempted to get me to switch to Lowell.....
Hmmm....-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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In post 1487, ChaosOmega wrote:Well I certainly look pretty terrible now. With the speed of that wagon, I think it's unlikely both of Sheep's partners bussed him. If that's true, there is scum in AJ, Fitz, ECM, me, and gerry.
VOTE: ECMitchell
I agree with this. There's no way BOTH scumbuddies bussed, considering how close I came to lynch and how vocal some of my lynchers were. AJ STILL fucking thinks I'm scum today, for god's sake. AJ, chaos, EC, fitz, and gerry are all town and scum didn't jump on that opportunity to lynch me? It's entirely possible that one scum bussed to keep the votes even (esp since they have daychat), but no effing way both did.In post 1496, ChaosOmega wrote:
I think there could be one busser. I find it extremely unlikely they both bussed. Assuming Lowell is town, they had an option to jump on an accepted wagon and not look bad.In post 1491, gerryoat wrote:@Chaos, i disagree. I think at least 1 could have bussed. especially if they saw him ending up as the lynch anyway.
Here is a guy who is disappointed I wasn't lynched, but is trying hard not to let it show. When you say you're for a Lowell lynch do you mean yesterday, or now? Because if now? I really don't know what to tell you.In post 1511, Aj The Epic wrote:
Yeah the NK was weird as shit, but they might've just been targeting claimed PRs.In post 1500, Unknown1234 wrote:Hawk was such a weird kill. Worth looking at what he's said, because I don't see why killing him would do anything.
I think Fitz is a good place to start the day. I mean I'm all for a lowell lynch but like either flip was gonna help figure this game out. To really force that one when fitz didn't have a huge opinion prior is a bit strange. Who's he replaced in for?
Also lowell I'd still bet I'd win a 1v1 vs you.
fos AJ
Agreed completely. Bussing is one thing, but there's no reason terata would have pulled the sheep wagon out of nowhere at the last minute like that. terata is town. If one were going to try to cash in on towncred for bussing, you'd do it much more like:In post 1526, Fro99er wrote:Terata had zero reason to START a counterwagon to Lowell on her scumbuddy.
Terata is nearly conftown in my eyes
fos unknownhas, with feigned relief at not being NKed for such a brave, brave hammer.
He's asking for permission to vote, as best as I can tell. I agree with those who have said he's flailing.In post 1530, ECMitchell wrote:Was not expecting to see Cooperative Sheep flip scum. Interesting death during the night too. Unless I'm missing something very obvious, don't we lynch WhemeStar now? Or by ChaosOmega's vote on me, am I to take it that you've successfully sorted WhemeStar last night and can confirm their town alignment? Hawk's role being a universal backup, in conjunction with the other soft and hard claims, confirms town has myriad power roles this game. Typically a role stopper would be assigned to scum in this case.
VOTE: WhemeStar
fos EC-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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This might actually be a good point (about EC). Still leaning towards "his plan to lynch me got effed up and now he's flailing", but will think on it.In post 1585, Unknown1234 wrote:Regardless of Town or Scum, no point in early hammering anyways.
Still don't see why scum would put two likely to-be Town players as their scum reads because they both voted Sheep and several people said focus non-sheep voters.
Feel free to disagree.
Can you explain this? Chaos said right off the bat that he looked guiltly for being on my wagon and said he wanted to look at others on the wagon as suspects. Seems like either you think "okay, that's reasonable," or "this guy is just trying to back peddle out of a jam." Why wait to cast this vote? And why not expain?
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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I'm now feeling pretty good about AJ as town. There's no reason for him to softclaim a weak-ish role with that many PRs already claimed and no threat on him whatsoever.
And if he's town I'm even more certain at least one scum (plus sheep) was on my wagon, because AJ would have been the obvious scapegoat if I had been lynched (since he tunneled me like whoa), or the obvious one to lead the D2 wagon on me if we lynched town. Point is I can easily envision a plan where scum lynches someone else D1, then sits back and lets AJ lead a wagon on me D2. AJ just being scum and doing all that actually makes slightly less sense to me.-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Ditto this. You either claimed to be or led people to believe you could sort wheme for us or were a direct counterclaim.In post 1731, Aj The Epic wrote:Ok the follow-up then:
What made you feel you are a counter role to Wheme?
If ECM didn't do anything, what's your take on the night kill? Who done it?-
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It really feels like fitz to me. This post looks so offputting, the most passive-aggressive derailing of chaos-wagon. If Ali is really claiming then I agree we need to flip him or frogger, preferably frogger first since he claimed VT, but I really want to lynch fitz. If chaos had flipped scum it would have been easy fitz, but even so this looks like someone who knew what the flip would be.
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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So, this too. Maybe I'm reaching a bit here, but one thing I find scum try too hard to do is justify every vote. Like here. You don't need to have previously scumread EITHER ali or frogger are scum to want to lynch frogger here. So this looks like he's reaching to reverse-engineer some reason to vote for frogger when really there doesn't need to be one.
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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In my gut I believe you. Your reaction doesn't look like caught scum. But I also don't see why Ali fakeclaims there so there's no way I can lynch him first over a VT. Isn't that pretty much what you said like three pages ago?
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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If you flip VT it means he's scum.In post 1884, Fro99er wrote:No.
I said lynch me to prove he's lying.
No because I'm a VT (VT is my claim and it's a direct counter to the guilty on me)
You say you can't see him doing this as town. But when I flip town then what's your reason for him doing this?-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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This is the other reason I feel like we need to lynch you first. There's just no way I can understand why Ali would fakeclaim as scum out of nowhere, given he mostly has towncred (or nullcred) for most people and the "rogue on his buddy with a pretty terrible gambit" just doesn't seem likely. I can, however, see you powering your way out of a lynch despite being caught scum given your towncred---and I'm currently imagining you cackling maniacally in a scumthread somewhere. The only possible gambit scenrio I see is Ali/frogger scum, but that seems too far-fetched.In post 1902, Fro99er wrote:I kind of agree
But scum have day chat and that would be a really bad thing for Ali to do withiut consulting his buddy
And it all went down so fast I'm not sure his scumbuddy was there, so it's something they either invented at night or Ali went rogue on his buddy with a pretty terrible gambit
We kill you, and if you're VT, we've got a scum out of it. The people rallying to your defense here are sketchy as hell IMO. What's Ali doing if frogger is town?-
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Lowell Jack of All Trades
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Back from long weekend. Prod avoidance today, case coming tomorrow. Quick thoughts.
1- can someone explain to me what ali was doing? Or at least a plausible theory? would have liked yesterday to have lasted long enough to discuss it.
2- making a case tomorrow. spoiler, it will be Unknown. Probably. I have several reasons to think he's scum. But also one big reason he's not. I need to look back at something to be sure. But yeah I really want it to be him.
3- need to re-sort fitz and IaI, who have grown interchangeable in my mind despite being the obvious lynch candidates.