Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]

[Unknown1234]

IamInnocent, if you think I'm scum and that Lowell is Town why have you not voted me? That would have done what you want to accomplish.

[Unknown1234]

Honestly, I'm leaning on you being scum because I don't see why Lowell would kill Havingfitz as scum. Makes no sense.

[Unknown1234]

None of what you just said makes me believe you any more because you should have done this yesterday.

[Lowell]

Honestly, it doesn't seem like either of you will believe me, but Havingfitz died for a possibility of a couple reasons.

1.) he started to question me being scum. You won't agree with this one as much because you think I'm scum but this is a possibility IMO.

2.) Lowell couldn't be killed, (this is if he's scum) and had to pick someone else to kill in replacement of him.

3.) IamInnocent (if he's scum) framed Lowell by killing Havingfitz in an attempt to guarentee his survival.

Atleast there was a kill, I was ready to auto skip because I thought there'd be a coward player.

I don't understand 3. Explain how keeping me alive "guarantees" IaI's survival?

And before this argument is attempted to be presented against me, I don't feel all that bad for hammering Terata even though they were Town. I was starting to believe they were Town a lot more, but at the end of the day it was me or them so I had to make a decision knowing I am Town and hoping they would be somehow scum.

Frankly I don't hold the terata vote against you (especially now that fitz flipped town). TBH when I the hammer I was sort of relieved. I was starting to think my townread on him was just D1 blinders, so I'm not sure I would have been able to cast the lynch vote were he scum.

I'm leaning Unknown as the last scum, but I'm in no way ready to vote. There are some things I need to look at, specifically wrt to fitz.

[Lowell]

Plus, me being alive over fitz seems like a bit of a set-up, considering my attacking unknown all day and fitz' relative townread on him.

[Unknown1234]

Lowell, if you're Town you actually really need to look at the game again and see why I am still scum. I tried to explain yesterday why I'm Town and I'm not sure if you are just ignoring it or if you are being stubborn. I don't see how I'm playing scummy.

Side note to both of you: if I'm scum why don't I kill Lowell? He's been scum-reading me all of yesterday and killing him wouldn't make me look bad because he was Town-read by everyone. There is no good reason.

[Unknown1234]

Plus, me being alive over fitz seems like a bit of a set-up, considering my attacking unknown all day and fitz' relative townread on him.

If you are assuming I set you up, why would I do that because you thought that I was buddying you yesterday.

[Unknown1234]

Honestly, it doesn't seem like either of you will believe me, but Havingfitz died for a possibility of a couple reasons.

1.) he started to question me being scum. You won't agree with this one as much because you think I'm scum but this is a possibility IMO.

2.) Lowell couldn't be killed, (this is if he's scum) and had to pick someone else to kill in replacement of him.

3.) IamInnocent (if he's scum) framed Lowell by killing Havingfitz in an attempt to guarentee his survival.

Atleast there was a kill, I was ready to auto skip because I thought there'd be a coward player.

I don't understand 3. Explain how keeping me alive "guarantees" IaI's survival?

And before this argument is attempted to be presented against me, I don't feel all that bad for hammering Terata even though they were Town. I was starting to believe they were Town a lot more, but at the end of the day it was me or them so I had to make a decision knowing I am Town and hoping they would be somehow scum.

Frankly I don't hold the terata vote against you (especially now that fitz flipped town). TBH when I the hammer I was sort of relieved. I was starting to think my townread on him was just D1 blinders, so I'm not sure I would have been able to cast the lynch vote were he scum.

I'm leaning Unknown as the last scum, but I'm in no way ready to vote. There are some things I need to look at, specifically wrt to fitz.

3 is there because, like I said, it makes you look bad. Yesterday I said that I wouldn't lynch IAI first, and in knowing that he can try to make you look bad instead (or me, to a degree of arguments). I also didn't say it would, I said in an attempt.

[Lowell]

Well at some point the scummiest player needs to vote, and if a hammer does not occur, then it's up to the then confirmed town to figure who the scum is, the voter or votee.

I'd like to do one more reread focusing only on 4 slots:

Lowell's
Unknowns
Sheeps
Aliseas

Should be quick as I can skip the other posters and I already have votes captured.

IamInnocent, if you think I'm scum and that Lowell is Town why have you not voted me? That would have done what you want to accomplish.

I like this post from unknown.

[Unknown1234]

Sorry, I didn't answer the question completely, but you were so set on lynching me yesterday I don't see why he would think you would change your decision today.

[Lowell]

Lowell, if you're Town you actually really need to look at the game again and see why I am still scum. I tried to explain yesterday why I'm Town and I'm not sure if you are just ignoring it or if you are being stubborn. I don't see how I'm playing scummy.

Side note to both of you: if I'm scum why don't I kill Lowell? He's been scum-reading me all of yesterday and killing him wouldn't make me look bad because he was Town-read by everyone. There is no good reason.

The only thing I can think of here is that killing me puts the attention too obviously on you, whereas keeping me alive sets up some WIFOM. But I agree with you on its face it makes more sense for IaI to kill fitz than for you.

[Lowell]

@unknown, tell me why IaI is scum, then. Or if you think it's me, why is it me? You come out of the gate playing nothing but defense and it's hard not to think it's you.

[I Am Innocent]

IamInnocent, if you think I'm scum and that Lowell is Town why have you not voted me? That would have done what you want to accomplish.

Well that isn't exactly what I said. For example, if I think you're the scummiest and Lowell also thinks you're the scummiest, you then should vote. Not me. If you both think I'm the scummiest, I'll be happy to vote first.

[I Am Innocent]

Honestly, I'm leaning on you being scum because I don't see why Lowell would kill Havingfitz as scum. Makes no sense.

Okay, nice 180 from earlier. Counter question, who would scum Lowell kill then?

[I Am Innocent]

None of what you just said makes me believe you any more because you should have done this yesterday.

What, had the scummiest person vote first yesterday? Doesn't do squat in non-LyLo. In LyLo, you get a confirmed town, and also force the "scummiest" player to make a choice on who they want to try to convince. And maybe they're wrong and the person they vote for was the one more on the fence...

Nope scummiest person votes first.

[I Am Innocent]

Plus, me being alive over fitz seems like a bit of a set-up, considering my attacking unknown all day and fitz' relative townread on him.

Fitz townread unknown? I don't recall that. Anyone want to provide posts on this I'd appreciate it.

[Lowell]

I'll look back, I may have misremembered.

[Unknown1234]

I'll message when I'm free, because right now I can't.

Your argument is weak, if you are the one that trusts Lowell it doesn't matter if I vote you or you vote me, if you think he's Town then vote me and if he hammers then you whine about it later.

[I Am Innocent]

I'll look back, I may have misremembered.

No I found it. He said late after he developed a scum read on terata that he was leaning town on unknown. Not sure id read that as a vote of confidence unknowns way more than he felt strongly that terata was scum at that point. My memory was of them bickering throughout the day. Also should be noted that Fitz's last comment on unknown was regarding your find of her not wanting to lynch IAI today.

I'll get the post in a sec

[I Am Innocent]

I don't like an IAI vote. Not today anyways.

Terata would you vote Fitz? The only thing is though that I doubt Lowell could be convinced either way but I'm getting second thoughts.

Could you explain

this

?

Nice catch....why would he assume there would be a chance to vote IAI tomorrow if I'm scum?

[I Am Innocent]

@Fro99, you don't need to defend my honor. But seriously thanks for defending my honor.

VOTE: sheep

Is the slip real? Who knows? Am I going to laugh if the sheep flips scum? You bet!

VOTE: Sheep

--

@Naomi: Hi! Come join us

L-3 and L-2 votes on page 3. I know one of these is a bus, but which one.

[I Am Innocent]

From page 3, last I remember:

52- Lil votes sheep to L-3 [+, good pressure]
54- chaos votes wheme, asks what he thinks [-, possible derailment?]
65- hawk calls lil suspicious because he was "the last one to vote [sheep]" [-, what??]
76- AJ calls out hawk for being chicken [+]
80s-90s- Ter and naomi banter [ter looks bad, naomi looks good]
114- Lil explains sheep vote, three times, then promptly unvotes [-, why?]
120s- frogger pushes sheep wagon [+, good]
142- sheep, Lil, Wheme lead w/ 3 votes
158- sheep OMGUS' frogger
171- sheep points out ter's WKing, then reversal when wagon dies [+, hadn't noticed this]
200- EC enters to call out gerry [-, not particularly revealing]
213- AJ calls out hawk again [+, yep]
222- frogger joins hawk-wagon [+]
223- sheep, too [-, good vote, but why he and frogger besties all of a sudden?]
229- frogger notices, returns to sheep [+]
274- naomi post-walls, has NO scum candidates [-, weak]
282- chaos again defends sheep [-, twice now he's derailed]
284- ter votes chaos [+, good new wagon]
293- sheep and hawk lead with three votes
315- wheme calls hawk scum for jumping on "weak" sheep wagon [-, why weak?]
324- EC again jumps in to vote a lurkerish player [-, why not, say, Lowell then?]
346- penguin enters, votes sheep [-, opportunistic]

Some scums:

VOTE: chaos
Chaos looks to be making a specific and deliberate attempt to derial the sheep wagon early on. All of his posts are either subtle attempts to derail the sheep wagon or him asking "hey I wonder what player X think of the sheep wagon?" His entire game so far seems to exist only to make sure sheep isn't killed... without it appearing as so. This is protecting a scumbuddy or WKing a town to pocket him (I'm leaning the former), but either way chaos is certainly scum.

fos hawk

The way he talks in 65 and 75 he takes as given that sheep is not scum and the wagon on him was serving some other purpose than to lynch scum. But why? I notice he's not the only one to do this (Naomi does as well), but the fact that he doesn't even consider the leading wagon could be scum (or is even serious) reads like he already knows the answer.

fos naomi

Maybe someone is going to jump in and tell me there's a meta I'm missing, but to post so many times and not have any scumreads is just bad. I think she's at least partially playing up the "omg I can't decide, it's so hard to find scum!" angle to avoid having to take a stance.

Some maybes:

frogger

. As a rule I'm very, very skeptical of "that guy who everyone townreads." Frogger is no exception. I don't have a playstyle bone to pick here, but tonally he's not quite where I'd expect him to be as a widely-assumed pro-town player. tl:dr I'm putting a pin in this one.

sheep

. I read him as very scum at the start and less so as I read on, largely due to the associative things happening around him.

He starting to feel less like obvscum and more like opportunistic target

. His brute force responses to his critics read less scholarly than oppressive, so none of his defenses really stick for me.

EC

. This guy is just trying to hide. Don't have a strong read but there it is.

Some towns:

AJ

. The only real, strong townread I have in this game. His calling out hawk posts are spot on, and he's in general a good kind of lurker. The one that shows up, is right, then leaves.

ter

. Went 180 on this guy. Thought he looked bad in his first interactions with naomi, but now I look back and I think I misread that passage. I've liked the wide net he's casting and the way he engages.

Whoever is left, null, I guess.

Underline is interesting.

[I Am Innocent]

VOTE: Sheep

--

@Naomi: Hi! Come join us

Fuck this post. Blank votes can go die.

I GUESS I HAVE TO ENQUIRE ABOUT YOUR REASONING AS YOU DIDN'T GIVE IT!

so tell everyone in your own words why your voting sheep and give it in 25 words or more.

I saw what Gerry was seeing and a decent sized wagon early game is great way to evaluate and re-evaluate players.

With that being said:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gerry

Naomi and Terata probably aren't scum.

Naomi and Terata probably aren't scum.

I agree here. Thanks for answering my question. I may have been hopped up on cold meds last night but I didn't think the case on sheep was that strong so I didn't mind switching my vote to get some response and shake up some people.

Tho personally I don't see what's so scummy as jumping off a wagon and onto another to get some engagement and conversation. It's d1. And early too. I want lots of people talking today not just tunnel on sheep :/

Also why Gerry? If you thought Sheep's slip was something substantial wouldn't that mean you're inclined to town read Gerry since he was implying that Gerry is town?

Pedit: ^ What Fro99er said. Though Im still only partially sold on it being a legit slip. I can easily see this as being a misnomer. Sheep's reaction to the whole thing seems pretty indifferent he's not trying to hard to deny it as a slip more so just saying it's silly to think of it as a slip.

I thought it was but after a reread I don't trust Gerry and his recent posts make me think he's scum. Just because you agree with someone doesn't mean you think they're town. I know people won't follow me on to him because Sheep is basically telling himself but that's fine. We can get Gerry tomorrow or even now to put me at ease if the rest of you are town reading him.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sheep

Interesting string of posts. Lil getting off sheep only to get back on. I remember this being positive points to Lil's slot.

[I Am Innocent]

Sheep is so obvious opportunistic scum it hurts.

Spoiler: Why I think Gerry is scum

58, 134, 136, and 152

What first pinged me about Gerry before I did my first reread of his ISO was his 58. On the surface it looks like just filler, but if you look and think it about it on a deeper level, he's arguable treating himself as confirmed town that shouldn't be considered for a lynch today by anyone for getting the game out of RVS as well as starting a wagon on Sheep.

Fast forward to a bit to 134, he does the same thing again by discrediting not only Naomi's read on him but also her as a player by bringing up a previous game without any context in which he claims he got two members of the scum team lynched.

136 is self explanatory.

I'm inclined to believe 152 is more scum motivated than town motivated and it only reinforces my read on him. He's hints at a PR of some sort and says he shouldn't be lynched today. There was no pressure on him at the time and the overall focus was on Sheep as well as the various arguments Frog was getting into so it was odd for him to drop that soft like it's hot and just leave. Scum have more to gain by bread crumbing in my opinion. It helps them with fake claiming and it can potential draw doctors and jail keepers to them.

TL:DR: Gerry has been been basically treating himself as confirmed town since RVS ended.

I think Gerry tried to distance from Sheep early and it sort of backfired a bit. I also think he could be just scum that tried to spread and pray on paranoia early and Sheep is town.

If we lynch Gerry today, we'll probably feel a lot better about Sheep's alignment

VOTE: Gerry

First post found interesting, remembering liking that during my initial read. Second and third post are how he got off the second sheep vote. Not sure that I like this line from the middle post:

"If we lynch Gerry today, we'll probably feel a lot better about Sheep's alignment"

[I Am Innocent]

Honestly, I'm leaning on you being scum because I don't see why Lowell would kill Havingfitz as scum. Makes no sense.

Okay, nice 180 from earlier. Counter question, who would scum Lowell kill then?

Unknown please answer this question