Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]

[Terata]

Terata, can you explain to me why IAI is your pick over Havingfitz in more detail? Otherwise it looks like you are trying to vote him to make him vote me in order to survive (because Town does that too)

My hands are freezing and I'm slow messaging on my phone. I'll be home soon.

you home ?

[Lowell]

Lowell your biggest issue is that your letting Alisae's actions convince you that fitz and IAI are innocent. It's actually incredibly stupid.

Can you say why I'm scum other than because Ali convinced u that her teammate is someone who wasn't in danger.

Okay, let's start with this. Explain to me how you knew Ali was lying about his claim. And, if you knew, why you didn't make any effort to convince anyone to lynch Ali first and save frogger. I've seen you when you're feeling passionate about convincing someone of something (like now, for instance)... so convince me your behavior then was the same.

[Unknown1234]

Terata, can you explain to me why IAI is your pick over Havingfitz in more detail? Otherwise it looks like you are trying to vote him to make him vote me in order to survive (because Town does that too)

My hands are freezing and I'm slow messaging on my phone. I'll be home soon.

you home ?

Sorry, I was still feeling sick so I just passed out and went to sleep as soon as I got home. Here now though.

[Unknown1234]

Lowell your biggest issue is that your letting Alisae's actions convince you that fitz and IAI are innocent. It's actually incredibly stupid.

Can you say why I'm scum other than because Ali convinced u that her teammate is someone who wasn't in danger.

Okay, let's start with this. Explain to me how you knew Ali was lying about his claim. And, if you knew, why you didn't make any effort to convince anyone to lynch Ali first and save frogger. I've seen you when you're feeling passionate about convincing someone of something (like now, for instance)... so convince me your behavior then was the same.

I didn't "know" that Ali was lying, but if you were following me in the game at the time you would know that Ali was my early scum-read and Frogger was a really strong town-read. I know people in this game have had a disagreement about whether or not to immediately believe role claims but I don't usually agree with claims like that unless the player claiming it against an actual suspicious person made sense.

The reason I wasn't as passionate (yes, I wasn't I'm not going to say I was) was for two reasons

1.) I was busy in RL. This was around the time where I had planned to replace out, but I had decided to forget about it because Fire had accidentally kept me in. I was busy and had less time to post a lot of information.

2.) I was at school. If you look at when I normally post you'll notice when I often post more opposed to when I can't, and it's harder for me to post a lot during class so I wasn't able to do any long convincing posts.

The day was also really short. Like, it ended way too quickly.

[Unknown1234]

VOTE: frogger

Die frogscum die! Hammer!

What was THIS anyways? It was your only post in the day and it was a hammer at the 14 hour mark.

[Lowell]

This was me seeing a VT v PR 1v1 and thinking there's no way scum would sacrifice themselves to kill a random VT. You can't complain about this if you're going to admit you did nothing to change anyone's mind.

[Unknown1234]

That is where you're wrong. Look at who is accusing and who is being accused. As soon as there's a CC, it should be who is the most townie opposed to who has the lead.

Also, how many PR's did you think there were?

[Firebringer]

The consensus is in! This game is longer than the original Bringer Mafia! Is that a good thing? You decide.

Vote Count #5.03:

Terata [L-2] I am Innocent
Unknown1234 [L-2] Lowell

Not Voting (3): Havingfitz, Unknown1234, Terata,

With 5 people alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

V/LA: HavingFitz is V/LA till Monday

Deadline:

(expired on 2017-03-14 16:45:00)

[Lowell]

That is where you're wrong. Look at who is accusing and who is being accused. As soon as there's a CC, it should be who is the most townie opposed to who has the lead.

Also, how many PR's did you think there were?

I have no idea how many powerroles there are. I just didn't see any way Ali would lie about a powerrole to get rid of a VT, so that was the logic for the vote. The fact that you "knew" it was Ali, basically did nothing to change anyone's mind, then use that as a cudgel now against anyone who voted frogger is why you're scummy as hell.

[I Am Innocent]

I'm never gonna vote Lowell this game, ever. The reason i caught sheep was because i thought Lowell felt town and i went looking for scum on that Wagon and sheep was the least towny one. I just don't ever see things playing out like they did if Lowell's scum.

Sorry I don't buy this. At the point you vote Sheep, EIGHT of the TWELVE people not named Lowell voted Lowell at some point in this game. So either:

1) You're town reading abilities are so strong that you are in the top third of the class or
2) You're scum that knew Lowell was town and didn't want to join a partner on his wagon, so threw a vanity vote at your partner in hopes for town cred later (for staying off Lowell and if Sheep flipped, being on him), and disappeared when his wagon took off.

I know which one I think is more likely.

PS - you're buddying "I'm never gonna vote Lowell this game, ever" after it is established that nobody else is interested in voting him/aka he's not a viable wagon is noted.

And i think Unknowns way of handling this day has felt the towniest. Others have only been making cases made to convince others to lynch specific people while unknown has actually tried to have a conversation with people and evaluating them.

Get out of here that the key to this day is interactions among living players. The key to this game is Day 1 and Day 2, that is where the evidence is. Beyond that, there isn't much, other than why the heck did Alisea pull a 1 for 1 gambit with only 1 remaining teammate.

So yes, I am going to go back to the evidence from Day 1 to Day 2, to see how people interacted with Sheep and Penguin/Alisea, and vice versa. Outside of your half hearted vote to start a wagon on sheep, you did ZERO towny stuff D1 and D2. None, notta. But you sure scummed it up in hindsight. The clues are there, if people just look at it.

Ok, so the biggest reason (from what i've precieved) to why IAI says im scum is that "Alisae wouldn't have made the fakeclaim if the partner is in the back-then-suspects". This is terrible logic. Scum KNOWS people evaluate their play after they die, so saying that Alisae and her partner didn't even think about how his claim would look after the flip is just beyond bad. Since scum would know for sure this logic would be taken up, if not by themselves (if you're scum) it will be taken up by the town (if someone else is the last scum). Right now im leaning SLIGHTLY more towards fitz, simply because you have focused so little on preparing the second mislynch after me if you're scum, and you're gonna look pretty bad when i flip town. This is wifom too of course and you could totally be scum doing this, but the way you swapped your second suspect in the span of 1 page felt like a move that scum perhaps wouldn't make if they're focused on getting me lynched.

Did you even read my posts? I put a whole case with every scummy post you made D1 and D2. And guess what, there is A LOT!

Did you also read that the Alisea gambit didn't point to you, but to you, Unknown, and Lowell. Lowell though, when looking at interactions with scum, comes out looking nearly confirmed town. Unknown/Lil, had just as many good posts as bad. In one post Unknown pushed both Sheep and Penguin, and only Sheep and Penguin. How often does scum do this....not very often.

You never pushed them. Outside of that vote, which you then disappeared from, you did nothing. Even when you put Sheep in your scummy pile, you then defended him saying "he's trying"

WHAT DOES IT MEAN WHEN A SCUM READ OF YOURS IS TRYING???

Because if that isn't defense of a scummate you are leaning scum read on, then I don't what it is.

[I Am Innocent]

And if i wpould bus sheep, why the fk would i have such a lame ass reason as that and get less cred than if i listed loads of scummy stuff i saw sheep do. If im scum and know sheep is scum, then i have loads of such reason to just list up that i actuslly believe in because i know it to be true.

It just makes no sense for me to be like "eh i think lowell is town and i think there's a scum in the voters so im voting sheep" instead of "SHEEP IS SCUMMY BECAUSE X, Y AND Z" and get cred.

AIA also using this as a point against me is ??

I already explained this. Your vote before Sheep was a solo vote on my slot, who nobody followed you on. Scum Terata may have thought, well let me throw a vote on Sheep next which will benefit me later, expecting more of the same (nobody following you). And then there is the town cred from not jumping on Lowell's wagon, if he ended up being the lynch and he is town like I think.

Would explain why you disappeared the rest of D1...if you had shown up, you would have had to push the Sheep wagon you started or give yourself away.

[I Am Innocent]

still feel Lowell has a towny straight to the point tone and think he's just likely town lhf. And if im right on Lowell, i think there has to be scum in his vote right now. Sheep is the one i feel worst about individually there. So VOTE: Cooperative Sheep. i would trust you if you found a better cfd Frogg, but i just don't like the Lowell lynch today

And then there is.....

im confused by this post though if IAI is town. Why would one of the main points to why he might be wrong in his read on me be weirded out smiley and he has absolutely no thoughts on it? I would expect either some kind of possible explanation so it fits in his world like "oh but he voted his partner because x" or a comment adding some doubt to his read, like "there's at least 1 point in his favour", but the comment just quotes my post and subtly shades it without giving any thoughts.

JUST SO WEIRD

Up until that post, I had ZERO GOOD INTERACTION POSTS from you tied to the two flip scum. ZERO!

Then I read that, which gave me pause for a minute. I admit it is a weird thing for scum to do, I would have been 95% confident you were scum without that post. Probably dropped to 75% or 80% after that.

Still pretty sure it is you. Especially since after that vote and immediate subsequent post, you disappeared for the rest of the day.

[I Am Innocent]

Here's my own thoughts i took during the iso. I started writing down the post numbers half way through and it's super messy, but sry i don't have the energy to correct it all. Ask me if you're confused

Spoiler:

Gerry: #35 feels weirdly phrased in a way i could see being partners. "You would have preferred I denied something without even knowing what it was? " +

Chaos: " I'll remind people that I've had issues with Chaos for some time now, just in case anyone wants to have a complaint about me hopping on that wagon if it catches much more steam " "I'm still fine calling Chaos scum though, I just got there on the WK road." "we're discussing a scumread on Chaos." he seems to want to make it VERY clear he's scumreading Chaos and he seems very self-aware of what he's doing. So even though i think it would usually look good for Choas it gives me distancy vibes. He also had basically 2 scum reads in Hawk/Chaos but put all real pressure on Hawk and only mentioned Chaos in the passing. And later when the pressure on Lowell started he STILL kept Chaos as his second lynch and slipped in Lowell as first without really mentioning him much earlier.

Wheme: #632 really feels like spew. like hard spew. And with how sheep talked early about scum Whiteknighting, i wouldn't be suprised if that's a big part of his play.

EC: Just no interactions

Lowell: towntown "So you would have been okay with the pressure on WhemeStar if you'd thought of it before me? Is that a habit that will carry through the game? Feels like it would make you hard to cooperate with if town." He's using "@Lowell" several times for meh questions where it doesn't really fit in. Dunno what to make of that. #1291:i feel like scum often wants to avoid being seen as having tmi when talking about pre-flips. Maybe this read is dumb, but im giving lowell townpoints for sheep's post. Also the way Lowell jumped to sheep's top lynch towards the end and being the CW obviously looks good for Lowell

Penguin/Alisae: Basically no interactions, but Penguin didn't play and Alisae subbed in towards the end, so i won't read into that.

AJ: #223: "but I'll sheep AJ for the moment." a bit blatant if partners, but idk. "If you have suggestions for future games I'd love to hear them.." this doesn't strike me as a tone that's designed to please AJ, like it's been at other times to others. He's more lowkey salty for AJ pushing him, which could be because AJ was accusing a partner.

Naomi/HavingFitz: "That's an interesting way to look at it - I don't think I can fully come with you on it" "Why would you say there is red between us three when everything you've said on the matter has me and Terata as green. Isn't that an explicit contradiction."- Naomi. ++ #321 also +

Lil/unknown: "Avoiding LilUzi because he's currently less active." "You then attack Uzi (one of my attackers)" hm. The part in #321 where he responds to Lil's vote doesn't feel at all like a partner interactions. #1222 "I feel safe in the knowledge

you'll

have a lot of people to lynch before I'm the worst lurker " i think sheep's phrasing here is super spew-y

Frogg: towntown. Scum doesn't use 70% of their posts responding/trying to justify his own actions to a partner. thats a partner interaction approximately 0 % of the time.

interesting post connected to several: #1206: TMI/spew? or defending a partner in the claims?

I've iso'd Sheep to look for spew more than partner interaction, because they're much harder to differentiate. +++ = lock clear ++ = looks good, + = looks slightly good. - = something pinged me

+++: Frogg
++: Naomi/fitz, Lil/unknown, Wheme, Lowell
+: Gerry

- (ordered worst first): EC, Chaos, AJ

Terata what do you think about your comments here regarding penguin/aliseas slot? Would you agree you are defending them here? Why would you dismiss no interactions with sheep for them but give my slot the worst score for doing the same thing?

Would you agree that is how scum might act with their partner?

It's simple. EC was in the thread a lot and actually played the game. Sheep did too. So it would've made sense for it to be at least some discussion both were involved in. But Penguin literally just popped in and didn't interact with anyone, so it's not weird he and penguin didn't have any discussion.

And to your second question. Are you refering to my initial read, where i gave "-" points for having no interactions? Then yes, i think scum usually have problems interacting back and forth with one another.

If you're refering to my own post and if i would deal with my reads as i did if i were scum with PP/Ali, then it's a terribly leading question, and yes i probably would since the reason for my read i made this game would make sense if i were scum aswell.

Alisea had over 100 posts in the game Day 1 before Sheep was hammered. That is more than Lowell still has this whole game. More than

ECM

had this whole game, Chaos, Hawk, AJ, even

Sheep

himself. (Both underlines go against your reason above).

But you dismiss it as "Alisae subbed in towards the end, so i won't read into that"

It's crap, it was deflection, and the only person that would benefit from deflecting attention to Alisea's slot would be Alisea's partner. Is that "leading" enough for you?

[I Am Innocent]

actually, now i remember fitz's reaction to the sheep lynch after it was hammered and b4 the flip was pretty towny. i swapped again, im probably leaning towards it being you slightly. But go ahead and ask anyway, since you might be town

How convenient you just remembered that now. Now you can go after me!!!

Must have realized it could be unknown instead of fitz today, and didn't want to be boxed in to voting fitz and confirming me when I don't vote fitz. Scum Terata knows he loses in that situation.

[I Am Innocent]

tl;dr Vote Terata

[Lowell]

I'm going to be relatively MIA this weekend. Will try to check in at least once or twice though.

FWIW I like 2259, actually. I've been focused on terata's saving ME and hadn't really thought about how he came around to sheep.

[Lowell]

Still not terata over Unknown, though.

[Unknown1234]

If you can't understand that I was busy with RL at the time and the day was literally 13 hours long (during the time I was sleeping or at school) then you clearly aren't trying to actually read me.

[Unknown1234]

Actually, blame yourself when you see that I'm town and you foolishley hammered with over 13 days left in the day.

[Unknown1234]

Y'all are dumb as fuck.

VOTE: Alisae

Why do I say this if I'm scum? I gain nothing except to aggravate you. You guys just can't read emotions I suppose.

[Unknown1234]

TBH, I'm not feeling as good about this lynch as I could be.

However, my gut is telling me to hammer.

I'll regret this later, maybe... stupid Gut.

VOTE: Sheep

Unless you think this is pre-acting, I don't know why I would show doubt about hammering my own teammate.

[Unknown1234]

I'll vote if needed then.

VOTE: ChaosOmega

Why would I draw this much attention to myself? Unless you think I'm a super sinister player who actually purposely did this to look Town, then you aren't following the game well.

[Unknown1234]

VOTE: Iaminnocent

I am willing to believe that Havingfitz is just a salty human being.

Why would scum immediately try to lead a train on this situation?

I'll be back later.

[I Am Innocent]

Nothing new to add. Tomorrow is a hectic day for me, tho should be able to check in at night time.

[Terata]

Prod dodge. I feel like Lowell gotta get his head out of his ass for us to win this. im gonna spend sun/mon evening trying to help him.